Welcome to UFO Think Tank Craigio with your host Alejandrolhal. Hello, my friends, and welcome back. You know what's funny is since I've changed the name back to UFO Think Tank, we actually have lost a few listeners and they've been saying, hey, where you go. You haven't done the show. And I got to tell them, you know what, UFO Think Tank. Check it out, and they go and they begin to listen. But luckily, because we've had a regular increase, you know, I haven't even noticed.
It was like I switched over and I thought, okay, great, doesn't look like we lost any listeners. And then this Google app, this new Google listen think featured the show somehow, and all of a sudden we had like one hundred thousand listens. And now that that is gone. I was last month that they kind of featured. We're back to our normal but it's kind of fun. It's, you know, welcome back to the show. Where those of you who didn't realize that the show was still going on.
But it's wonderful to see all of those listeners and so many new ones. And thank you all so very much for listening, and welcome to all of you new listeners. We love you, We're glad you're here, and I am really happy you are here today, and I'm sure you're gonna be happy too, because I have some extremely exciting news to share as well as a great guest today, the guest I am particularly. I need my sheet with all the different words I use because I always say excited. I'm so
excited, I'm so happy. I say that all the time, but it's true. I am being excited to have some of these people, including our guest today, who is John Dover. He is a Navajo Ranger who has done UFO investigations. In fact, they've done a bunch of paranormal investigations. This is really going to be part one of a two part deal because today I've got John Dover. Then next week we're gonna hear from Stan Milford, who is his partner, another Navaja ranger, and together these guys have gone
out. They're part of special projects for the Navajo Rangers. Now, special projects just means important cases, like if you watch what line Order has the special Victims. I think they call it or something like that. I don't know, but it's similar to that. They handle the high profile cases. Now, occasionally these cases are of a paranormal nature. Huh, exciting, and they go out and investigate these things. They don't say, ah, you guys are crazy. Now they're like, Okay, let's go check it
out. And in some of these cases they're crazy. But no, actually, in many of these cases, it's really crazy stuff they investigate, and so this is really fun. Now, these guys are federal law enforcement, they're trained by the Feds. They're actual law enforcement. There rangers on the Navajo Reservation, which is huge. It's as big as it's bigger than some of the states that some of you all live in. It maybe bigger than some of the countries that you all live in, because I know we've got
listeners from all over the place. But these guys go out and investigate these cases, and then they've ran across some really wild stuff. I met him a couple years ago when they wanted to come to the UFO Congress because they wanted to learn more about investigating this stuff because they're running across it, you know, they wanted help. They contacted Moufon and now they kind of have this partnership with move On to help them with this stuff. So it's really
really exciting and their stories are just incredible. So this is going to be a real treat. It was real treat for me to interview John and I know you guys are gonna love this. So that's what's coming up in just a few short minutes. But prior to that, before we get into the news, I have some more exciting news. And this is super super exciting for me because this is a goal of mine for for many many years.
I tried to do this with the first UFO Congress as much as I could, you know, as some of you may know, when some of you don't, I wasn't Open Minds. I didn't run Open Minds. I was a member of Open Minds, and I did a lot of stuff there, and you know, I've got friends there and everything, and that's great. But this is something that I'm putting together all on my own, and that is a conference that is more mainstream, mainstream journalists, mainstream scientists, more
mainstream palatable. Some of you are like, oh man, that's boring. I want to hear wordless. I want to hear about big put which is fine, you know, And I actually hope to do another paranormal conference to
talk about more different kind of things. But what I want to create, which I don't think exists right now, is space where scientists and journalists can go where it's very mainstream safe, you know, a place where the speakers and the people have credentials to a degree, which if they're featured in a
story or they're interviewed, it's kind of incontestable, you know. It's like they're not going to make fun of these people because they have PhDs or their professors or their scientists, very well known scientists, And I think that's really important in order to move all of this forward. I'm a very as you guys know, inclusive person. I don't like this and nobody I don't like being confrontational or defensive or argumentative. I would rather work together, including with
mainstream science. Jack come on over, buddy. Unfortunately he's actually going to be in Italy the weekend of this conference. However, the point is is that other SETI scientists, even if they aren't they don't aren't convinced that we're being visited by extratrusturals. Maybe they don't think much about UFOs, but they think a lot about space, and they think a lot about extraterrestrial life because they're focused on finding that microbe on Mars, they're focused on finding that microbe
on the moon of Saturn. That's still good, I think, because these are people who have open minds, and you know, I think people will know if you know, scientists are very focused on what they're doing, and it's not always that these people think that UFOs are ridiculous. It's just that they haven't thought much towards it because they're really focused on the science that they're working on, and uh so they get a little bit of tunnel vision.
So I think it's an incumbent upon us who feel that there is some real evidence here to reach out to these people and to then begin to discuss display what we feel is convincing evidence. And I think if we can do that and create a space where these sort of people can feel comfortable to talk amongst each other, then that opens up the opportunity to hopefully have some you know, more conventional, mainstream scientific research in this area. Because you know what,
I've been a move On investigator for many years. I'm a state section director in Arizona. Move On is great, it's one of the biggest It is the biggest investigative organization in the country. But we're all volunteers working on the little precious time that we have in our free time to try to do
this stuff. And it's not enough, it's too difficult. We really need a concerted effort from a scientific organization, and we're not going to get that if we're telling them they are a bunch of boneheads and they don't know what they're doing, and they're covering stuff up, and they're working for the man. They don't even know the man. Who's the man. I don't know who's the man. I'm working on science over here. So I think we really need to reach out to these people, and that is my goal here.
The other second part of that is that there are scientists, as we know because we interview them on this show. There are scientists who are interested in this and why are they interested? And there's a lot of these guys who will stick their neck out to say that there's something real here that we
need to investigate. Even mister mitchell O Kaku, Sorry, I don't know that he's coming to the conference, But there are scientists out there who do buil there something going on and they want to discuss it and really analyze all of this. So this is going to be something else. So this is a Cosmic Exploration Conference, Science, UFOs and the Search for Extraterrestrial Life.
I'm going to read you a little the blurb here because it's great. This first of its con conference will examine both current knowledge and future possibilities within the fast growing scientific exploration of outer space through the interface of cosmology, astrobiology, sociology, and cutting edge physics. We will explore the search for earthlike exoplanets and extraterrestrial life, the potential implications of contact, and technologies which might exist
within civilizations thousands or millions of years ahead of us. We will also present a rigorous and rational overview of the UFO question as it should be understood within a scientific and historical context. Our goal is to bring these many interrelated areas together for the first time, as presented only by leading credentialed professionals, and to bring a dialogue within an expanded scientific framework about the search for signs of
life and the cosmos and its implications. What does it mean that perhaps we're right around the corner from discovering that microbon mars? What are people going to think what does it have? What effect is it going to have on people's view of whether advanced civilizations are out there? I think it'll be big because they'll be like, Wow, we've got life on our next door neighbor and this planet, this Mars that we're looking at in the sky every night.
If there's life there, it must be everywhere. And if there's life everywhere, there must be advanced civilizations. Who are these guys? Are they really coming here? I think people begin to ask these questions, and then people begin to look for answers, and if we can start to create this space and get involved with that dialogue and we can help move this further. I don't have all the speakers lined up yet, but who I have, Oh, this is good. One of the people I have Leslie Kane, and
she's been a big help. She's an investigative journalist. Of course, she's a New York Times bestselling author. In that book that I'm talking about is called UFOs Generals, Pilots and government Officials go on the Record. She's an integral part of this conference because her book is the model really for this. What she was able to do is write this book. It became a New
York Times bestseller. She was able to prove that people are really itching, they really want credible, solid information on this and so I thought, Okay, we need to create a space where these people can get together, where they can network, where researchers and people interested in this field can come and see these people, and we can all talk with Leslie Kane. She's gotten her book endorsed by Derek Pitt, a very important astronomer in New York,
by Mitchie okaku By. She's worked with John Podessa, all of these very high level people who have said, you know what, we feel, there's something to your book. Your book is great. Those people need a space
somewhere where they can come, be comfortable to come to. They're not ready for abductions and reputilians, they're not ready for all of this other stuff, because you know, they need to scratch the surface and get to this credible information to begin a real conservative effort so they can do some deal due diligence around researching this stuff. Some of the other speakers. Now, this conference is gonna be in Las Vegas. It's gonna be at the Tropicana Hotel.
Beautiful, beautiful venue. Just newly renovated. You can go on my website ufodailynews dot com and you're gonna see at the top of the Cosmic Exploration Conference. In there, you'll be able to go to the website for the conference and see pictures that I even took myself of the venue. I mean, this place is beautiful. One of the most in my humble opinion, the
most important journalist in Las Vegas is George Napp. Of course you're all familiar with him because sorry to uh mister Norri, but George Napp is my favorite host of Coast to Coast AM and he is a main stream investigative journalist. In fact, he has won many many awards, including nineteen Emmy Awards for his journalism. How incredible is that this is a mainstream journalist who really follows the UFO story and he takes it very serious. So George Knapp an important
person in Las Vegas. He'll be speaking Jeffrey Bennett, who is an astronomer, a teacher, and a writer. He has a PhD in astrophysics. He is someone who will be at the conference. He's into SETI. He's written a book called Beyond UFOs, The Search for extraterrestrial life, and he is going to be talking about a lot of the projects going on that way. John Alexander, love him or hate him, he's out there and he is here's the message. And this is what I like about his messages.
Some people think he's covering stuff. I don't think so. I think he's genuine in this because I've talked to him quite a bit over the last couple of years. But his deal is I thought there was something to UFOs. I did an internal investigation when I was a colonel. He's a leading expert on non lethal weapons, I mean, like one of the very top guys in this field. He did work on other paranormal things. I can remote
viewing, which we talked about last week. And he says he did an investigation while he was in the army and he found that the UFOs are real, but that there is no major conspiracy, that the government, or at least the military is justice baffled as everyone else. And he puts it straight. He says he thinks they were too incompetent to really investigate this stuff. They failed many times in the research here. But still he's got an important
message. It's an alternative for those who aren't comfortable with a grand conspiracy idea. And I think it's worth listening to because he has some interesting points to make. Another mainstream journalist who's writing for a national publication, the Huffington Post, and writing about UFOs regularly, that is Lee Spiegel. Really, I mean, one of the few mainstream writers out there who gets to who has just this huge audience I mean Huffington Post, and he's able to write about
this stuff. Ron Westrom and this is really exciting. He's a professor emeritus of sociology at Eastern Michigan and he talks a lot about the sociology of anomaly. So when anonymous anomalist things happen, how does society react and why? And so he's talking about essentially, you know, why do we laugh at UFOs, Why do we this anomalist stuff? What is it in us that makes us happen? So he's an important person. He actually got his bachelor's
from Harvard and his PhD in social relations at the University of Chicago. Another professor Ted Peters, and he's a current professor of systematic theology at Pacific Lutheran is the name of the Theological Seminary. That's where he's a professor now his PhDs in theology. And what's great about him he also works on a journal for the Center for Theology and Natural Science, and he works a lot in
science. He wants to talk about really how people react. He's written this incredible study We've had him on the show about how religions really will be effected if an extraterrestrial civilization would be discovered. Very interesting stuff because it's some real data. And then finally, and this is kind of a cherry on the cake for now, is Major General retired Wilfred Debrauer from the Belgian Air Force. This guy is amazing and it's because he's a major general for the Belgium
Air Force. He was there with the UFO flap, and flap happened in the nineties when they saw all these triangular UFOs. He does a play by play of that investigation, the many sightings, the sidings by police, the sidings by so many other citizens. I mean, it's an amazing occurrence that happened out there in the nineties that is completely unexplainable, and I mean, how can you you know this guy's a major general for goodness sakes, very
credible and incredible stuff. I'm very proud to have Debrawer here, and he's especially important right now because about a year ago or so, it came out that the most famous UFO photo of the Triangle in Belgium was hoaxed. And really there's been some information that has been out, but we will have our chance to hear it from the horse's mouth. Debrower personally worked with the witness back in the nineties and got that picture and got that investigation done. What's
up with that picture? We're gonna hear it straight from Debrawer on what's going on there. So that's who I have thus far. I have some really exciting prospects on the horizon. You all are the first really to hear about this. I only finished the website like yesterday and got it all up. You're gonna want to go register early because the banquet, the meat, the speaker's baquet, which is going to be a nice plated dinner. You'll be
served. It's gonna be scrumptious going. It's got limited seating, and I know those seats are going to go fast. I have lesson I've got maybe around one hundred and fifty or so seats at that, so not a whole lot so which is kind of nice because it's going to be a very intimate setting. Then there won't be a whole lot of people. You'll definitely get a chance to speak with the speakers, and that's what this banquet is about.
I don't have much fanfare going on because sometimes when there's too many presentations, people don't get a mingle. And I really want you all to have a chance to speak with some of these people, speak with Debrawer, speak with some of these other scientists and professors, and speak with Leslie Kaine. She's wonderful. So this is going to be great. The price is really
low. I really kept the price as low as I could, and I think you're going to appreciate that because he's I know these conferences can get expensive, but it's only one hundred and sixty five for everything, and that's dinner and all lectures, three days, thirteen lectures speakers only, is only one hundred and fifteen dollars, So that's really cheap. You can get away with this conference coming out and paying very little. It's at the Tropic Cana,
which is absolutely beautiful. I mean, this place is really fancy. It has a bunch of really big pools that are viewable from these walking areas. Some guys out there like to look at girls and bikinis, and if you're one of those guys, you're gonna love it because there is an abundance of that where girls who like to look at guys in there and you know, their trunks and strutting around. You're gonna love it too because you're gonna have
that opportunity. But these rooms are beautiful, and you know what I'm doing with this conference. It's Vegas, right, So I'm finishing everything pretty early so you can go out and enjoy Vegas at night. I mean, that's what it's all about, right, So everything is going to be ending fairly early, so you have lots of time to go have some fun. And plus, sometimes people you know will come to me at these conferences and be like, hey, man, you know I want to go, but my
spouse doesn't. She doesn't know what she's gonna do. You know, you guys are having your conference in the middle of the desert or whatever. My family going to do. Well, that's a no brainer. Here. There's plenty to do in Vegas. And this is what is really cool. And you can see a picture that I took from my room at the Tropicana, and that is you have a perfect view of and at airlines. These are the unmarked planes which fly the people to Area fifty one, the workers to
Area fifty one, and they fly back and forth. I actually got to see you in the morning, you know, or at these planes taxing out to fly the employees to area fifty one. How exciting is that? And I have a picture of that on the venue page on the website. So remember Cosmicx. Cosmicex dot com is the website, but you can also just go to Ufodailynews dot com and there's a link at the top of the screen there. So pretty cool stuff, guys. I'm just so excited to tell
you all about this. I know I took a long time explaining it. And let's see if I could get into some news real quick. Some of you might have seen this story and I am going to post it on the Huffington Post tomorrow. But this is just kind of cool because SpaceX, which is in the news big time because tomorrow they're going to be the first commercial space company to send a craft to the International Space Station that should be happening
tomorrow. And they're also partnering, partnering up with Bigelow. Big Low Aerospace, we know this guy, and Bigelow of course has these little units, these inflatable kind of space stations. So they're talking about working out a partnership where you can actually lease a space station from Biglow and SpaceX will fly you back and forth. How wild is that. I've got this story at ufodailynews dot com, and I'll have an story up tomorrow on the Huffington Post.
But of course I also include a little bit about Bigelow's UFO interest, because of course he's done his own UFO research. I paused because I clicked the next page, and look what I saw here. John Alexander, he's in the news too. Lee Spiegel, one of our speakers. He wrote about John Alexander, one of the other speakers, And John Alexander actually wrote a letter to the Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta, CIA Director General David Petraeus,
and National Intelligence Director General James Clapper. And in this letter he says, you know what I don't I believe you guys, there's not a major conspiracy but a lot of people are afraid to talk who have had sightings in the military. I want you guys to offered her amnesty to anybody in the military who wants to talk about their UFO sidings or who say they've been sworn to
secrecy about UFOs. He's kind of calling them out, you know. He kind of thinks that he's skeptical that they had any such request to ask anybody the secrecy. He thinks that maybe sometimes some of these people who were asked to be quiet were un roguely, you know, like some lieutenant tells some guy, hey, don't talk about this, when it was none of his business whether he talked about it or not. So that's kind of what he's
doing. So this has kind of got to be a pretty big story by least heego on the Huffington Post. And so those are a couple of stories. Of course, for more stories go to ufodaily news dot com. However, we have this interview with John Dover which is really interesting. So let's go ahead and get to John. All Right, I am particularly excited to have John Dover on the phone with me. John, Hello, how you doing today? Doing very well? So this is an exciting topic For another
number of reasons. I think a lot of people like to hear the Native American perspectives on UFOs or paranormal but also because your law enforcement and law enforcement doesn't typically pay at attention to paranormal. Sometimes they do, but on the side, but the law often they shy away from taking the paranormal claim seriously
and going investigating these things. But you guys do well. It gets to the point where if you're in law enforcement and you see something or something happens to you, you're ridicule and it's actually pretty pretty hard to deal with sometimes because other law enforcement officers it's a very matral world where people don't talk about strange things that can't be explained. I guess to get into what you did now, And I certainly don't want to disparage law enforcement. I personally have
a great, great respect for law enforcement. People get upset and I think they go a little overboard because they get a ticket here and there. But these are people who are willing to put themselves in between you and a bullet, you know it, put themselves in harms way to protect all of us, to help us when we're in trouble. I think that's incredible, and I think unfortunately law enforcement doesn't get enough credit for what they do for the
low fees that they get. And I personally have a very very big respect for law enforcement. Well thank you. Yeah, we call it the thin blue line. I've done not only police work in my past, but resource law enforcement work and historic preservation work. So all law enforcement all across the United States is a real brotherhood. So I guess to get into the startups to kind of put it in context and what your job was and what you
were responsible for. You were a Navajo ranger, so there is some affiliation with federal law for enforcement, that correct, but it's mostly governed by the Navajo nation. That's right. What we did. We were a very small department, only about fourteen to fifteen field officers, covering twenty seven thousand square miles of land on the Navolu Indian Reservation. Our job took in all the resources renewable and non renewable, which was agriculture, archaeology, forestry, fish
and wildlife, minerals, water resources, anything even cultural resources. And in the park areas, we were the park police, and so there's quite a few parks like Monument Valley and Kidrichi and other tribal parks all over the reservation up and then we had search and rescue responsibilities on top of that. Navajo Nations huge that's right. It covers areas in northeastern Arizona, southeastern Utah, and northwestern New Mexico. Mm hmm, so very very big area. And
so you guys must have kept really, really busy. Yeah, it's in fact, I should stay right up front. The paranormal cases that we did account for less than one percent of the entire workload that we had, and
yet the cases that we worked on I consider very significant. How long have you had you been working for the Navajo Nation and what is kind of the relationship with the federal federal law enforcement Okay, I've on and off with the Nation for well, let's see twenty seven years and four years with another police agency outside the reservation. I made it up to the rank of lieutenant, so I was in charge of all the Arizona and Utah portions for supervision.
Our officers are all trained at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, so they are recognized by the federal government as federal officers. So that's how that falls in. And then later on for some of them, like me, I went to the Criminal Investigation School at Glencoe, Georgia for about ten weeks to be certified as a criminal investigator. So then you start, you go and
you start to work for the rangers. And at what point then did I guess how was your what was your feeling towards the paranormal and UFOs in particular? Before getting into this well, I had seen them on several occasions, very very odd, weird situations. I saw a cigar shaped craft lying near near flagstaff between Winslow Flagstaff in the middle of the night. It sounded like heavy machinery that was running, just a single white light shining out of the
front. Me and my wife, we were driving on the road and we saw this thing. I remember getting out of the vehicle and standing, turning off the vehicle and watching it. I was maybe three hundred yards away from it, and she she just became very, very fearful, and I remember I was just completely filled with awe watching this thing. And since then, you know, we've seen them on other occasions. I've actually investigated some small
cases involving landings and people that had seen them. And then we had quite a large incident up here just before the Phoenix lights came out. The night before, we had quite a light show up here with the trap that were following each other on the horizon, six or seven of them and circling in a counterclockwise direction, making a big circle through the Hockey National Monument area, across the Winslow, up toward the Delcan and Second Mesa, all the way
around to coal Mine, to the city and back down to Cameron. And and you know, we watched My whole neighborhood actually came out, turned off all their lights and we watched these things circle us. For most of them thirty to forty minutes. They would follow each other, the first one to change color, the next one to change color, just like like they're all
copying each other. They changed from blue, red, yellow, green, and then occasionally the first one of fluoresce like a flare, getting brighter and brighter and brighter, and the next one would do the same thing. Eventually they all flew off in line towards the west and over the Grand Canyon area and we lost sight of them. Wow, And this was did you say the night before the Phoenix sights. That's correct, and yeah, I remember
that night. I called Cocadino County Sheriffs and spoke to the dispatcher. I asked her if she had any officers that were up on the north end that could verify these lights, and she said, no, there's nobody up there, and I remember thinking, no, you know, she's probably going to think I'm crazy. I just told her neighbor mind and hung up the phone. So we couldn't get any law enforcement from the county to verify anything that
was going on. These things were totally silent, and towards the end, we actually had a fixed wing fly over at high altitude and you could hear the engine occurring that you couldn't hear these things circling us. Mh wow. How many people do you think saw that? Oh? There had to have been at least sixty in my block alone. I mean everybody was out on their lawns, out in the front yards of lawn chairs. The kids were
all running around playing. Everything was blacked out and everybody was watching this. We thought we were going to see all kinds of reporters descend on our town here and loop, and nobody came out because the Phoenix Lights came out the next day. It was all over the news and it just totally eclipsed everything. Phoenix took all your thunder. Yeah yeah, and we think that these these were related to the Phoenix lights, even though they weren't in that delta
wing configuration. You know that it looked like individual craft that were circling. And how did your neighbors, How did the neighborhood react? What did your neighbors think of these lights? You know, everybody just kind of accepted it. Nobody got excited, nobody phoned the press or anything else. It was just one of those things that that seemed to happen, and it's just filed
away for future reference. And I find that I find the same attitude all over the reservation that no matter what community you go into as a ranger, once they start understanding that you're interested in this stuff, they'll they'll start telling these stories. Oh yeah, you know, we saw orbs, we saw these crafts flying over. You know, all these incidentss nobody really knows about and what everybody in that community knows, and they just pretty much accept it
as something that happens out here, and it's to be expected almost. I've spoken to police officers something the cant area that said that they saw lights so often they would go out on patrol around midnight and talk about going to see the submarine races because the lights would show up out on the horizon and they'd watch them. Oh wow. So you know, and officers all over the reservation have stories like that where they seem unusual things that night when they're out
there. Are you still in Loop now? Yeah, that's where I live, okay? And that's about forty miles east of flag Staff. What about one hundred and fifty miles north of Phoenix? Is that about right? Yeah? About one hundred and twenty miles to get the flag Staff and Loop is about forty five miles northeast of Flagstaff. Oh okay, okay cool. So just to give some of the listeners an idea of how close you are, we'll get into some of those other stories in law enforcement. There's a couple
of things I want to touch on before that. But one thing is is you yourself are not Navajo? Is that correct? Well? I am part Navajo? Oh okay, and I'm also part They used to call how Apache Okay there now they refer to it as the Apache Tribe of Oklahoma with his small tribe maybe about thirty five members there on part of Southern Cheyenne, and in the Southern Cheyenne, I'm a direct descendant from White Anelope who so who was who was killed in Sand Creek that he was one of the peace chiefs,
and then on part Filipino. So I kind of hit into just about any group. And where are you originally from? Originally, I was born and raised in Los Angeles, California, along with thousands and thousands of other Native Americans. A lot of them ended up out there during the war years and just haaved. So there's a huge community of Navahos out there, and and you know, I grew up out there and move out here about nineteen seventy six and ended up moving to the reservation and getting a job there in
nineteen eighty. Okay, gotcha. Great. So you're a city boy, Oh yeah, yeah, I learned to be a country boy. Yeah.
I really appreciate the quiet out here now, yeah, my gotcha. So one of the things before we get too far, I want to talk about because I was really floored by it, because it's a personal experience is that last weekend, you know, you and your partner Stan, who I'm going to interview next week, came out to do a talk for the Arizona move On And I think I've told the listeners, but I'm a state section director out here for move On in Arizona. And so I was there and we
did. We all went on a SkyWatch afterwards, and you all brought some of your night vision gear, and I want to talk about, you know,
the details on that gear. But I was really floored by what we saw, By what I saw, I mean, you let me use them, and within a few minutes, you know, I saw four or five crafts, and I mean when I first saw them, they were all very close to each other, and then they're all kind of as if they had all converged or maybe just recently crossed each other's paths, but they were all moving in separate directions. There was another lady, Karen, who had night
vision, and she saw them. I think you got your night vision on there pretty quick, and you saw and then a couple of these objects were bright enough where at least the lady Michelle, who was standing by me, was able to see a couple of them. With her eyes. But that was really strange. What did you see? Well? I saw these these life they looked like in the night vision they look like almost like you would see a satellite. Look. They're all traveling at pretty much the same speeds.
I couldn't tell that they had converged on straight lines and then we're heading off in different directions. But it looked to me as if they had been traveling in one direction and then they all broke up and turned and tracked in different directions. And this is I didn't get to see them when they were first discovered until a little bit later when they were heading off in different directions. And I thought that was unusual to see that many satellites in that close
a proximity to each other. Usually you'll see one or two satellites. I do know that there's thousands and thousands of objects up in state, but to have that many crisscross each other all at once was quite an amazing sight. Yeah, I have never seen anything like that. I haven't. I've gotten to use night vision goggles a bit, but have you ever seen anything like
that before with them? Actually? Actually no, what we use them for tactical operations, so we're looking on the ground, looking for people and to see our way around in the dark, and even to drive with on occasion. And really, yeah, so you don't get a real chance to look into the sky from a fixed location because you're always pretty much busy. And if you wear them enough, like I have, you get to the point where you know you put them on and it's like, uh, you know,
more work, So it's not really a recreational thing. And a lot of times you don't even care to look at them because you know, you know, you've got some work to do. So you guys will put these on, I guess to sneak up in your vehicles. You'll drive your vehicle
with the lights off and wearing the goggles. Oh sure. It's actually not the safest thing to do because when you're worrying those you have a one dimensional view of things, or I should say two dimensional views, and you don't really have that depth of field where you can see in relation to three D objects. So if you're not trained with them, if you don't use them all the time, you could get yourself in serious trouble trying to drive with
those things. Yeah, those were really impressive. My boss and open Minds has a couple of night vision some goggles or binoculars. It's really kind of a monocular. But and I know he spent a lot of money on those. But the ones you had were very small but very powerful. I mean, I think more powerful than anything he had had. They were pretty impressive. Yeah, those are PVS four teams. They're a one eye uh you
know deal just one two the image intensifier troops or the desks there. I think they were the top three percent out of the out of the manufactor and so there we had to wait longer for them because the the manufacturers were making them for soldiers over in Iraq and in Afghanistan, and of course we told him, no, you make theirs first, and so we waited quite a number of months, I think about eight months before we got and because we
had waited so long and we're so nice about it, out of the production run, they gave us the best twos. Oh wow, great, And I mean they're just so light and tiny. I mean I was, it's really incredible and the power is yeah, you can I can see how you know, crawling around in the desert or wherever. They can be extremely useful.
I mean, you can really see a lot. Yeah, these these are we're purchased and then they were issued to the different numbers on the UH on the rangers that were had training in SWAT or tactical training, which is a whole another eighty hours of training that you have to go through. Well, I was very thankful, thank you for bringing those because that was a very interesting experience because, like you, all I saw was them moving straight
in a steady at a steady speed like a satellite would. But it was just so odd to see so many in one spot. That was very strange. Who knows, huh. So, getting back to your work as a ranger, when was it, I guess that you first maybe received a paranormal call and decided to go investigated. Did you have to get permission? How
did your peers react? Well, I'll have to qualify the statement because all the rangers over the years have had to deal with different small parnormal cases from witchcraft, haunted places, UFOs, and bigfoot, and none of these calls they would be responding to on a case by case basis, and a lot of the rangers received these calls in the field and either give advice or go out there and investigate them, but nothing was ever written because we didn't have
a classification for them. So what happens is that all through our careers we've been actually looking into cases like these. Now. Ten years ago there was a major case that took place up in the Shipwreck Bluefield area of Nenexico, and in this case, there were over thirty witnesses to a big foot siding.
Some of the witnesses got rather close to this thing. They described it as being able to step right over barboi or fences that are about four feet tall, and a lot of them were very alarmed, and some of them were actually scared. They had gone to a local police department in the area who I guess will for the purposes of this interview who remain unnamed, that the lieutenant there put in the local paper, what are these people drinking?
And he was laughing about it. So the people just clammed up and they said, we don't want anything to do with these guys anymore. We don't, you know, we don't want them to handle our case. Shortly after, we got a call asking if the rangers would be interested in coming up and looking into this matter. So we listed it at the time under as a wild animal case, because in a lot of cases bears that are standing up can also be confused for bigfoot, and it was the only thing in
our code that would allow us to actually label it. We sent got a hasty team together of about five rangers, and we got a bigfoot expert to come along with us, and we went up there and for three days and two nights pretty much investigated it, surveilled it. We had night vision, we had a ford looking in for red cameras and video systems, and we scoured the area on foot, interviewed witnesses and by the time we were done, everybody was happy that we had looked into it. We did find evidence,
foot track evidence, We found hair samples. They were sent off and came back as an unknown carnivore stride links between the footprints areas. In one case, there was a boggy area that was just saturated with water and a huge log had been lifted out of the bog and set aside, and the experts told us that this was an attempt to get at grubs or to look for food. And then we had witnesses that told us that trees had been ripped apart on the tops and it was almost like a huge, huge nest
was made up there. The big fit experts were telling us that from the Muggyore into Colorado, this is part of the migratory route that these things take. So we had enough up there that it raised more questions than answers. That everybody was happy that at least somebody was looking into it. And I mean, did you need to get permission to look into it? And if so, you know or what did your appear? Other law enforcement people say about, wow, you guys are going off on you know this weird case.
Well, we don't usually advertise what we do, and so the other enforcement agencies in the area really didn't know what was going on other than we were out there. Our director had made a decision that people are scared. They want something looked into. In some cases, it's it's Graandma and Grandpa that have lived out there all their lives and they something howling that they can't identify, and they know all the animal sounds and they just want somebody to
listen to them and take them seriously. So from that point on, there was a determination made that all these cases will be documented investigated in a professional manner, and we will provide that opportunity for somebody to speak out and listen to them without ridicule, without packing, and and actually take the information down and document it. And because most of these victims don't want to be identified, uh, these files get get pretty much locked down so that no other
officers have access to them. Uh. They're locked with passworded within the system and become a very private matter. That but that's how it started. And as people started to understand that we were willing to listen and handle these cases professionally and investigate them in a thorough manner, they started calling us with more and more paranormal cases. And we didn't get to love. You know,
there wasn't a whole bunch of them all at once. It was just every now and then we'd get cases that came in and uh and we would me and stand were in a section called Special Projects, and so we were the ones that were tasked with handling these kind of cases. And we grabbed individual arrangers on an asthmi basis and have them assisted in the investigation. It's funny, really. All this is just the reason I say that this is really
kind of especially exciting for me in that. You know, I've got some Native American roots and I've always appreciated that and paid attention to that culture. But I also used to read Tony Hillerman's books, especially in high school. And of course he's the guy who wrote about these mysteries in the Southwest on the Navajo Reservation, and ship Rock was always kind of the central monument to
his stories. You know, how far were they from Shipbrock? So now to couple this with kind of the paranormal you guys are like some Navajo Ranger X files. It's pretty exciting. You guys are are the ones they need to make a TV series out of? Okays, Yeah, we've always amongst ourselves Tony Hillerman's character Jim Cheese should have been a ranger because at the time
we didn't know if police officers had investigated archaeology in cases like that. But it wasn't until much later that we actually got to talk to Philly Hillarman and inform him, and he actually put the ranger's name and I think one of his last books, okay, and thanked us for our help. Now, did you did you mention to him any of the paranormal staff? No, not at that time. He just came down for a quick chat and and
put us in the in the front dedication for his book. Cool. I'll have to send him a link maybe to these interviews because just because I was a fan, and also to see what he thinks. I think he'd be pretty open minded. His books were pretty open minded, I think. Right,
So, how did you build person? Looking at I mean, how do you approach these Have you always had kind of an open mind kind of just to these events, or like a lot of other law enforcement or people I've talked to, sometimes they go into these things very skeptical, but then you know, do their due diligence and then sometimes find that there's more to do this and MEETSI. Well, of course, when you go into it
as an investigator, you can't have your mind made up about anything. What you're looking for is evidence, and as the evidence collects, you let the evidence speak for itself. And so say you go to a car accident, You're not going to get statements from the people that were involved right away, because everybody's statement is going to be different. What you do is you look at the evidence on the roadway, the skid marks, the yaw marks,
the gouges. You determined in your own mind what has happened, what were the chain of events, and then you get your witness statements and they should coincide with the physical evidence on the ground. You approach one of these investigations the same way. You don't have a preconceived idea that they're wrong or they're
right. You try to collect as much physical evidence, as much photograph evidence as you can, and then you let the stories kind of flesh that out a little bit as far as how they felt, what their emotions were, what their thoughts were. You also look into it from a standpoint of you know, how are they drug users? Are they using prescription drugs that could
have altered their perceptions? Are they drinking at the time, or are they an alcoholic from the past, You know, do they have any physical illness or mental anything going on mentally that would detract from what they're telling you. And once you establish all this and you get your statements, a lot of the times the statements are very solid statements, statements that if you were to take it to a homicide trial, somebody would be going to prison or going
to death row. And that's the thing that really strikes me about these cases is that when you investigate them properly and you look for that evidence or the and I have the backup just a minute here, when you're talking with people, interviewing them, even interrogating them, you're attempting to get to the truth of what they're saying, and you use body language, you use expressions, gestures, micro expressions that might flash across their face. Just for a second.
We're trying to look at the eyes, the pupils, every aspect of somebody giving you a statement to see if physically they're telling you the truth or
if they're being deceptive and telling you something that they're making up. And there are ways, there are established schools for these things, and that's how we're trying to investigrs M. And we're looking at the totality of the whole thing, right, And I guess you know one thing that I hadn't thought of before the way you had worded this is that you all have a good understanding of what amount of evidence it takes to, for instance, convict a perpetrator
of a crime. So you can kind of measure the level of evidence that you collect in a paranormal case to determine whether or not you feel something is actually some sort of anomalous event has taken place. Right, maybe you can't establish that some kind of a UFO foo over this area, but you can establish that there were results from that and enough witnesses that has solid statements that
can say, yes, this happened. Something happened. And occasionally you'll get cases where we had one where somebody's a UFO had gone over a vehicle. The vehicle calmed out, the person ended up taking the vehicle back to the to the dealership because under the Arizona Lemon law and said that this vehicle doesn't work. You know what happened. It was a brand new vehicle. They took all the computers out and replaced them. They still couldn't get the deal
right. They ended up giving the person a new vehicle. So, you know, you have some kind of a direct evidence that says, hey, here's here's something that went over this vehicle that caused all the electronics in the vehicle to pretty much scramble. And so now here's a direct effect of you know, could it be coincidental that a UFO flew over this thing at a low altitude and suddenly everything goes out in the vehicle. So there's some direct
evidence. And we'll talk a little bit more about direct evidence in relation to one of the cases that I worked on involving a young lady that was followed by orbs. Right, And yeah, we'll get into these cases because these are great, But just one more question before we get into these, at least a couple of these really great cases you talked about that move on, which is the Navajo people. Are they pretty open minded to this step or
are they more like the general public. Some people believe in it, some people are just don't want anything to do with it. Well, even I have to again qualify the statement I don't I don't really use the term believer because belief indicates that you have to have a faith system that there's no evidence
that you're just you're just going to believe that that it's true. And in these cases, enough people have seen enough things, things that have landed, things that have flown over so often that it's just a fact of life. And the only thing is that on the reservation out here, we don't have the infrastructure like every other town does. We have body cell reception, even though there's there's a company out here that provides sell service. It's mainly in
the in the main towns. We don't have internet like everybody else does, so all the navelos on Facebook, we don't have the data communications. Even the police don't have uh, you know, good radio communications everywhere. And that's just a fact of life out here. So a lot of the information is kept here that I've heard the reservation described in UFO circles as a black hole that no information really gets out. There's there's lots of things that go
on. Like I said, any community you go to and you spend enough time in, they'll they'll start telling you about all these things that have happened.
I've had people tell me about a certain mesa that, uh, these orbs will come out and chase you and chase people away from there, and uh and they so that they were on horseback up there and these orbs came out, but they said they described them as four to six inches in diameter and just fleot straight at them and a lot they were going to knock them out, the horses and they've got out of there and they've never been back
there since. They're supposed to take me there and then they changed their minds because a lot of these things are seen as as something to do with evil spirits, with witchcraft, and to bring it out and bring attention to it is to ask these things to have more in effect in your life. And so a lot of the older navihosts just say, you don't talk about it,
leave it alone. They happened and that's it. And so unless they really trust you, they're not gonna you know, you can't just go to an avil family and they tell me about your UFO experience that they're going to climb up and not really say anything interesting. So let's get into then that case with the orbs that you were talking about, and if you can kind of review that. Okay, this is in June of twenty eleven. A young lady is driving from Flagstaff to the Loop area and she's on the road
in the middle of the night. This is about one o'clock one fifteen in the morning. She's passing these large cinder cones as you get to the reservation line on Route fifteen and heading east down. So Route fifteen is a two lane blacktop highway, so she's driving along and as she gets near the cones, and these cones extend about maybe eight hundred to one thousand feet up on
each side of the roadway. They're extinct cano events. And she notices a red light between two of them, maybe about eight hundred feet up in the air, and she looks at it and thinks, gee is a helicopter. And as she keeps going, she starts to notice it even more. It just totally captures her attention, so now she's watching it rather than tently. She says, the thing drifts down. It's got no strobe lights, no
directional indicator lights. It drops lower in elevation and starts coming toward her vehicle. It gets within about fifty yards of her vehicle, and she can see now that it's very low to the ground. The ground underneath is lit up, so she says it's maybe about ten feet off the ground. It's hovering and moving. She describes it as being red, but darker around the edges
and lighter in the middle, which indicates some three dimensionality. As she gets to the reservation line itself, the road turns to the right and she has to take her eyes off this thing. And as she takes her eyes off the thing and continues down the highway. Now she sees something out of the corner of her left eye, and she turns and looks, and this other orbit was rather large, the red one. But now she sees a small what she describes as maybe ten inches in diameter, a little smaller than a
volleyball, bigger than a softball. And she says, there's a light or that's following her vehicle on the opposite side of the road where the right line is the road lane delineator. And she says that this thing is about two feet off the ground and she's doing sixty five miles an hour and it's keeping up with her vehicle slightly behind. She has a presence of mind to note
the time as being right around one fifteen in the morning. She takes her cellphone camera and she puts on the video and she centers it in the front so she can see the road and the headlights turns it to the left. She's looking where the orb is, but the camera is not picking it up. She goes back to the front, back to there nothing. She can't even hit record yet because there's nothing showing up in the viewfinder, so she
gives up. As she goes this thing follows her for about a good mile and suddenly accelerates, gets about two carlins in front of her, and then makes a right angle turn and goes straight up into the sky. So now she starts leaning forward over the steering wheel and looking up through the windshield, and she sees this thing a park across the sky to the east, and she says it looks like a shooting star. So this is not where the
story ends. She gets back to her house and as she pulls in the driveway, she sees what she describes as a large rabbit and he's still there, right, yeah, And that's right, listeners, he did say rabbit. Yeah. Now, the rabbit to her is very unusual. First off, it's about three and a half eet high to the top of the head. It's sitting up like a cat on its hot you know, with its front leg straight and down on its rear. She says that the color is
one color. It's kind of a grayish brown color, but almost like it's speckled throughout the no distinct markets anywhere. She describes the eyes as black, and the ears are together like they're let they're put together and parked back from the head arcing back toward the back, so she didn't count the ears as
to the hive. She says, it's just sitting there where she usually parks, And she actually parked about maybe six feet to eight feet back from where she usually parks her vehicle and just sits there, kind of terrified and panicked. And she gets on the phone calls her brother who lives in Phoenix, and she's telling him what she's seeing. So she stays on the phone with
him for about a good fifteen minutes staring at this thing. She says, it never moves, it just sits there, and after a while she says, I'm going to make a run for the door. She turns off the vehicle and gets out of the vehicle. Now, one of the things that I didn't say at the conference that I thought was significant, that was kind of kicking myself later, she says that once she gets out of the car, usually in a community you'll hear dogs barking at any time of the night.
This is summertime, so you're going to hear all the crickets chirping and buzzs and everything else. Everything that makes noise is making noise at night. She gets out and everything is absolutely still. There's no dog spartan, there's no sound, there's no insect noise, nothing, and she took notice of
that. She backs away from the thing, getting out of the driver's door, steps around the back of the vehicle, and she said she kept it in her side the whole time until she got to the door and went in the house, slams the door. She tells her brother if if you hear me scream or anything, you know, all family members over here. He says that when she gets out of the vehicle and towards the house, he hears a high pitched squealing on phone, like my feedback or something. And
then she gets inside and she ends up talking to him. She so shook up that she stayed up the rest of the night, and she says that the next day she had a migraine all day long, which is unusual because she's never experienced the migraine in her life up to this point. So, you know, you look at things like that and you think, okay, that's that's pretty wild. But when we got a hold of mof on on this case, and they contacted the Star Team, which is made up of
the scientists and people that are very very good at what they do. They advised me to pull the oil filter on the vehicle and see if I could obtain it, to see about taking magnetic readings on the vehicle with a compass and see if there's any anomalies on the vehicle itself. And then what I did is the next morning they contacted me and I went out there. In the front of the vehicle where this young lady parks is a very hard, hard ground. It's a limestone shale type area and when you walk on it,
you don't leave any footprints. It's just that hard. And where she parked her vehicle, there's that evidence that the vehicle has stopped short from where she usually parks, so that was photographed, and where this rabbit had had been sitting. There's a disturbed area of ground right there where it's torn up a little bit, and so there's some evidence. It's indistinct, but there's
something that was there. Later on, when we took a compass out there, the compass rotated immediately and pinned on an area from three feet away from the vehicle. You can move the compass to the left and right and it would follow that long spot there are two areas on the vehicle that were magnetized. One was in front, just right in front of the passenger side door on the vehicle. The other one was just behind the driver's seat, behind where the where the door closes. If you draw a line or hold a
string between those two points, it goes right through the driver. And so this was real significant too that that and we we even took the time to look for a similar vehicle that was the same year and and took magnetic readings on that vehicle and we didn't find anything. M H so pretty strange. I mean, she didn't mention like an ORB flying through the car, but
there was some sort of effect on a car that went through. That may account for her migraine because there is an effect that went through that effected a car and would have affected her if she was in the driver's seat. Well, we looked at it and from the reconstruction of her statements and where this orb was, she said it was just a little behind and to the left of the vehicle. As it was moving. It's almost as if it shot a beam of some kind through the vehicle that you couldn't see. And it
goes through one door through her and out the other door. That's as speculation wise, that's the only thing we've got at this point. It doesn't look like the ORB itself went through the vehicle. That that something and maybe from the orb maybe it was it was scanning something or looking at something. So that's all we can speculate, if, of course we can put it into speculation, but it's we have a direct evidence that something happened. And what
do you make of this strange rabbit account. Well, I have read in a lot of different publications that seeing animals, especially large animals, are associated with UFO abduction cases. In this case, it was a rabbit. In other cases, it might be giant butterflies. It might be deer with black eyes. It might be owls as in the movie The Fourth Time. It could be just any number of things that you would see. But it looks
unusual. Now, this young lady could describe to me the markings and and characteristics of jack rabbits of cotton tails, which are the two name rabbits in this area, and she'd never seen anything this large that didn't have distinctive markings and had black eyes instead of eyes that would grow on the headlights. So you know, she was cognizant enough to pick up those details. She doesn't use drugs, she doesn't drink, was not using any prescription medication during that
time. Her statements were very lucid, and even talking to her sometime after that case, they hadn't really changed some. In fact, some of the statements that she gave me she didn't remember because we got to her the very next day. As it time goes along, it seems like some of that memory is going and she doesn't remember as clearly now lot of the things that she that she put in her statement that she did sit down and at my
request write everything down. Uh that happened to her? Wow, pretty incredible account. Yeah, very very unusual. In fact, Uh, I did go to that area that was disturbed and I had to kick the ground about three times with my boot to make any any of that soil move and break up. So you know, I know that ground is very hard for something to be on there. That's just to me, that's just an indication that
whatever she saw there was something there. Yeah. But for uh, I want to give enough time too to uh talk about another case that you had brought up, which was one where gentlemen had seen possible crafts right when and maybe even entities on the ground. Uh yeah. We refer to this as the Old Man case. This is the first case where we've got involved with
Arizona move On. What had happened was one of the field rangers came in and was talking to us and said, oh, yeah, this old man up in this area, you know, said that he saw a UFO land or come down and he saw what you know. Well, the officer is telling us these these aliens that were on the ground around his house, and of course we took immediate notice. We asked if he could get in touch with this man again and let us know if he would be if he would
be willing to have us come out and interview him. The information came back, yeah, he does want to talk to us. Can we come out and investigate this? So before we went out, we tried to get a hold of somebody and we found an investigator's manual on the move On website at that time, So we needed to use some kind of permission to use it because it was asking questions that we had frankly had never considered. There was
no way, there was no direct phone numbers at that time. So what we did is we had to fill out a CMS report, and so we filled out CMS report, sent it in and we got the very next day. We got an immediate response and they said, yes, we would like to send some of our investigators up there with you too. You know that we know that you have to go through the initial interview right away. So they gave us permission to use some of the some of the material from the
investigator's handbook, and we went out there and interviewed him. We take the interview he tells us, and this is just the short version of the story. He tells us that he sees a light out in force moving through the trees. He initially thinks that this is a vehicle out in the middle of
the night driving through that he's in actually a pretty remote area. Later on, he sees this thing up over the trees and it's going down a ridgeline near where he lives, and it stops at the highest point and appears to hover, and as it's suffering, something comes out of the bottom. It travels downhill and goes to a neighbor's house, which is maybe about three quarters of a mile away from where he is, goes back to the craft again,
and then he says it starts coming his direction. Now he describes it as almost floating above the ground and coming toward him, something light colored. He gets a little shook up. About seventy five yards from the house, one of his dogs runs out to it barking. And this dog is kind of a healer lab mix that is a real big puppy. So he sees it disappear into the darkness out toward where these things are coming, and all of a sudden he hears the dog, you know, yip yipe, and
come running back. The dog runs back to the front of the house and towers down next to the front doorstep, pulls up in the ball and stays her. The other dog that he has is actually very vicious, and he's got it chained up all the time with the doghouse. That dog never made a peep, never barked, just run in his doghouse and stayed there. So now he's getting to feel a little uneasy. He says, this is about, you know, right around midnight one in the morning, and he
decides to go inside the house and lock the doors. So now he's looking out the window and he sees these what he describes as four in Navajo. He's and he's speaking Navajo all this time. Navo is a very descriptive language, but it doesn't have words for a lean or ufo. So he's describing lights. He's describing what he calls small children that are walking around his house.
He says, they have BArch, large heads, black eyes. Each one of them is dressed in a light colored skin tight outfit, and they're each holding what he calls a flashlight. But each flashlight he describes the beam as pencil thin and almost like a laser beam that's on all the time. And he describes the beams as different colors, you know, blue, red, yellow, green, that kind of thing, and they're shining them around.
He says, like they lost something and they're looking for something. So he's got he had these solar lights around his house because there's no electricity, no running water, and he says that they seem to take particular interest in these lights. And they walk up to one of the lights. They're all standing around it. He says, as they get close to it, the light begins and then goes out, but then as they walked away from it,
the light came back on. So they follow these lights around, looking at the lights and go around to the other side of the house, and then they start heading back to the back of the house again, and by this time he's a little bit irritated, and he says, I decided to go out and confront him. So he gets a flash like you know, and goes out in front of the house. He says, I want to know what these children are doing out here at this time of the night,
and so he heads around the back of the house. As he turned the corner, it's unclear if he what he tripped over, but he whether it's a flagstone or some uneven surface that he takes a fall and the flashlight in his hand breaks, so it went out, he says. Next thing, he looks up and these things are kind of drifting back up toward where the craft is covering and through the trees, and so he picks himself up and goes back in the house. So that's that's the story. They go back
into the craft, and then the craft moves off and disappears. So we did our our interview with him. We had three separate interviews with him over a year and a half and his story did not change in the least. It was never embellished, nothing was ever added to it. It was the same story. And the natural language and the natural culture is an oral culture tradition, So things that are handed down stories like that, are not embellished
or not added to in any way. They're told exactly as they were told the first time. And the dog in question, we had a crew come out to do radiation background readings and they put on white tipex suits. Now, previously, this dog, when me and stand got there, was jumping all over us. We're in uniform jackets, green jackets on. The dogs just leaping up at us with muddy pops and we're trying to We couldn't keep that dog away to save our lives. And the other crew gets there.
They start putting on white tie that suits. One of the crew personnel is a real animal lover and goes to the dog and gets down and starts patting their knees and saying, canary. You know, the dog saw the white suits, turned around, ran to the house and cowered and would not come out. So here here's a direct cause and effect. You know, I saw something in a white suit and associated that with pain from from maybe that night and and hit my pouse. The other dog, of course, was
out barking at us the whole time. On the chain. Uh. We went through, We looked at the lights, we looked at everything. We interviewed the guy. We even went out and looked at the surrounding area and tried to track it because the ground is rather soft in that area. We did find some tracks that did not resemble animal tracks. They were in a straight line, meaning that the tracks were one in front of the other evenly spaced out. But there were no hookprints in the bottom. It just perfectly
round. And we photographed those. We didn't know what to make of them. The neighbor's house they had I think it was eight puppies that had been born previously, and they were up and you know the little fuzzy you know, real fuzzy hair all over them, real small. They were just at the point where they were running all over the place. All eight of them disappeared that same night. Wow and range. Yeah, nobody knows what to make of it. How how close is the neighbor? Their neighbor from them
was about three quarters of a mile away. Yeah, pretty barren area. I don't know if you mentioned I think you said before this is a place that doesn't have running water. They even have an outhouse, right, they had, they had an outhouse. He describes these these things as walking over to the outhouse and actually looking in the door at and because he had these lights going to the outhouse. Uh and and a lot of people do that out here. So so anyway, a very unusual case. We did have
a couple of Move On investigators come out and also interview him. The guy didn't want any publicity at all. He told us straight out. He says, how, I don't want anybody to come here and talk to me about this unless you know, you asked me first. And since that incident, every now and then one of our rangers will go up and check on the family up there. They said that they've before that they've seen lights, and even after that they've seen other lights. So there's some activity that's going on.
So how do you feel about the case overall that what he described really did happen. Oh yeah, This gentleman's veracity, as far as his attention to detail what he told us in the interviews, how he described everything was just spot on and that it hasn't changed over the years, and he shows
no visible signs of deception. He's just stating facts of what happened to him, and he's describing it in On one of the interviews that we did, we had a certified federal court interpreter that was doing a simultaneous translation for us, so we could ask them direct questions as a result, and that the story was exactly the same as the first story we got, So you know that that area. We've had other cases that have happened in that same areas
and it's the same all over the reservation. This one just involves in occupant siding. Pretty interesting cases. Well, we are pretty much out of time, but I think we covered a lot of great stuff. I'm sure you'll there's more, and perhaps we can talk again in the future. But thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this with us. I guess was there anything else you wanted to add before we're done? Oh?
Well, you know, we're just very thankful for Arizona Mouffon that has worked very closely with us on some of these cases, and we've been we set up an agreement that's a gentleman's handshake agreement for other Indian tribes to work with Moufon and basically how these things can be investigated. We're trying to blueprint a training course for law enforcement officers that would teach them this is how to photograph, this is how to collect evidence, how to interview and get statements,
and this is how it applies to paranormal and UFO cases. And we're hoping to blueprint that and offered as training from a technical standpoint so that other officers can be better prepared. Would it be great because hopefully to you all have done these cases and found some interesting things. I know other law enforcement or police officers are interested, but like you said, there's the macho stuff and
sometimes they can be a little embarrassed. And I know some of the police officers I've worked with who who do investigations anyway, they take a lot of heat, They take a lot of ridicule by their peers, and you know, joking around with can't which can wear on people. So hopefully since you all are peers and putting these protocols together, they can feel more secure and
working with you. Well, you know, you have to understand that officers testify in court and the sims attorney gets the idea that you're maybe on the fringe. They're going to use that to discredit you in some way. And so in our case, we have department sanctions. Our chief ranger told us, you know, go ahead and do this stuff, and and so we had the blessings of our department. A lot of departments won't do that. We're I think it may be time for a change, and maybe these things
do need to be taken seriously and really investigated. And we found some of this where we found natural causes for some of the excitings. And I'm sure if you bring that up with Stan, he'll tell you about one E work down where witchcraft case and and a UFO case with LFE sided where we found that they were not what they seemed to be and they were totally natural explanations for them. Okay, great, Yeah, we will ask him about that then, and that is next week that we will have Stan. Thank you
so much John for being on the show. That was a lot of fun. He's a great guy and so incredible their cases, and I know he had more to talk about, so hopefully we can get him on again. So remember go to you DailyNews Dot com for more of the news that we talked about and other also the link to the conference. And then we will talk to you next week and we'll be here with Stan Milford, John Dover's
partner to talk about more amazing Navajo cases on the Navajo reservation. Talk to you next week, people,