Hello, and welcome to open my GUFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin Moover and shaker Willis. That's right, I'm a mover and your mover and a shaker. Because you've got your you're going to be coming onto k g r A as well, and you've got an exciting lineup for your first show on KGIRA. Why don't you go ahead and talk about it? Wow, thank you, ale Hondo. Yeah, I'm really excited. I reached out to a few different people and just
said I want to really do a really great debut show over there. And it's changed days now. It's going to be on Tuesday at six to eight pm Eastern Standard time. Going to be real early for the West Coast folks out there at three pm. So my shows are always safe for work, so if you're listening at work live, you don't have to worry about that.
So anyway, I first ran the idea by Lee Spiegel and said, hey, can you ask James Fox if you tube could come on and talk about the movie that you have been working so diligently on and so he said yeah, but you know, James is so busy. I really really doubt it, and I said, okay, So as a backup, I contacted Dave Marler and and Dave said and I said, Dave, you know you're my favorite guest. I'd love to have you on and from my debut show. And he wrote back, anyone else I'd say no, but I'll be
on. So then I heard back from Lee Spiegel and he said, yes, James will do it. So all three of them are going to be I'm going to have Dave Marler on the first hour and then he's going to remain on the show along with Lee Spiegel and James Fox. So I'm really excited about that. And that's just Tuesday Night coming. Yeah, very exciting,
very cool, cool guys. I've been in contact with all three of them a lot lately because of course, James is working with Lee on this great documentary, and Marler, I know it contributed to the documentary and so he's a cool dude. I like those guys. So that's going to be
really exciting. And if you're listening to KGRA on what is Monday night Tuesday morning, you know you're going to be about twenty four hours after me on Tuesday night Wednesday morning of SLAT and if you're listening on the podcast, then you'll be able to enjoy the KGr show of Martins tonight because I usually launch a podcasts on Tuesdays. That's right now, I'm even confused, but I know it'll work out. Yeah. Well, the listeners, I think get
it essentially your Tuesday night. Yeah yeah, I'm looking forward to the audience over at kg R A. I know they have a pretty good size listening audience, very dedicated to that channel itself. So yeah, I know this show runs on that so and has been for quite a while, what about six months, I guess, huh something like that. Maybe long yeah, maybe longer, I can't remember, probably longer actually, So. Yeah, So there's a good friend to Tom. It was in Utah. He's probably
listening. He listens to kg R and I didn't know this. He listens to kg A lot, like so he always hears this show. He's listened to my show for quite some time. He comes to Phoenix mooth on occasionally, but I didn't know that. So he's excited for your show to be on KGRA. He'll be actually hearing you more. So there will be people hearing you more than they might have before. But the Utah thing was really fun. Kgra was there. This is the Utah UFO event that was kind
of a fest in Cedar City, Utah. It was interesting. They called it Nate, who's a cool guy. He's an amazing photographer. He's changing his last name. It is Colin Shaw, but he's changing it to Arizona. So as soon as Nate name will be Nate Arizona. But he's a photographer and an amazing one. I think you can even find his Instagram on Nathan Arizona. He's taken pictures for our conference, so he's kind of spearhead at this event. And this is the third one. He likes to use
the phrase grassroots. This is grassroots, but his kind of definition of grassroots is more along the lines of if it looks unorganized, that's that's actually just grassroots. So it was kind of haphazard in a way. So for instance that the talks that have power points, they have to can't go on till night because he has a big screen out in the park and it's too like light, so we have to wait for the sun that go down, and so we kind of had to like, for instance, when Jeremy Corbel spoke,
which was great to see him. We had to just wait until it got dark, do do Do Do Do, and then finally when it did, you know, dark enough, he went on and it was one It was really cool, but it was it was really pretty out there, and we actually went with some friends from Phoenix move On, Don and Mary Anne and Jim and Stacy. Jim and Stacy run Phoenix move On and we went to Zion and Bryce Canyon, which are also amazing. We stopped at the north rim of the Grand Canyon, which is pretty cool. So we made
a pretty neat little trip out of it. But yeah, it's fun to see Jeremy and all of those dudes. Which brings me to the guest for today. My guest for today is John Alexander. Yeah, I'm very excited about this just because of what's going on right now. So what's going on and of course we've talked about this, and we talked about this quite a
bit with Jeremy Corbel on my last show. But is that you know, we've got this new information that the a tip you know, this this Pentagon UFO STA the actually used to have a different name, and not only did it have a different name, it also was centered around the Skinwalker Ranch, which is to me very shocking I think to many others too. So yeah,
the Skinwalker Ranch actually was a big part of it. So that the group I'm getting a name was the actually called the Advanced Aerospace Weapons System Applications Program or a SWAP a SAP or a SAP. A SAP is what it would be. And that name that actually Skinwalker Ranch was being investigated at the time that they created this organization and they got the funding from the government to do investigations, so that Skinwalker Ranch really was the center of the investigation,
which is shocking because of the craziness that went on there. You know, we talked about it with Jeremy but and he also talked about Utah things like these giant wolves or cattle mutilations or other what they've even called poltergeist activity. So what's interesting is John Alexander was part of all of these investigations. He's retired, he was a former he's a colonel in Army intelligence. He also worked at Los Alamos and he is a defense consultant specializing in non lethal weapons.
And so yeah, very credible, interesting person who's also very interested in the paranormal. Some people have been frustrated with his kind of how he sees how the military interacts with this topic. But I feel that, you know, certain, even more so in what we've discovered, is that what he said all along is proving to be true, and we'll get into that in this discussion. And what he has been saying is that, you know, more along the lines of that they don't know what to do with the phenomena,
not that the phenomena does not exist. He feels very much like Elizondo, that the phenomena does exist and it hasn't been paid enough attention. So really great talk, really interesting time to talk to him about all of this, because you know, I ask was he even aware, because in previous interviews about a tip, it seems like he was not aware of the government involvement with the investigation that he himself was investigating. So right now, isn't
that weird? That is really strange. So it's all just that's such a weird. It's all just really hard to digest and to kind of unpack and put all together. But I'm attempting to do that. Oh, I've got a Dent of Geek article coming out soon on the Nimets leaked Nimetz document about that incident, and then hopefully any day now and then I've got a bigger piece about all of this that I'm putting together for a Dent of Geek magazine that's going to be coming out. So wow, Yeah, exciting stuff,
right, all good stuff. Yeah, are we ready to do the news because I got kind of a segue. Oh you do great? Well, you sort of segue did oh, I did great well? The segua away, Okay, Well, I wanted to talk about the nimets UFO and the I Team exclusively confidential report the analysis of the TikTok Ufo incidents. George Knapp, my favorite reporter on the subject. Out there journalists did a great,
great story about this and you can find it online. Also, I saw on your website there's in the UFO updates for whatever that you have there headlines it is. There's also a war Zone article written about this as well. I see you have that up there today. So anyway, George in the I team, you know, they they did this whirlwind tour to Washington, d C. And saw unclassified documents about the NIMTZ incident back in off San Diego in two thousand and four. Now these were written in two thousand.
These documents are unclassified, but I want to make a note that there's another highly classified document that that was written at the same time that the public will probably or most likely never see. But this unclassified document really talks about what was happening. And I didn't realize this, I probably should have known.
But there were seven pilots in all that had an encounter with these objects or object to the tic TAC and so what they were calling them in the document is AAVs, and which they decided, after all, at the end of this study that they were not a threat. But what I really like about the name AAV it's anomalous aerial vehicle. They're actually calling it a vehicle. I mean, I think that's kind of well, I think that's very interesting.
Actually, So the equipment that was used to track, or they did try to track, they tried to lock on this object, they were unable to for quite a while. And finally, you know, they're using equipment such as I don't know exactly what it's called, but it can actually track a golf ball at one hundred miles. Think about that. It can track a golf ball at one hundred miles, and so they were able to finally, you know, lock onto it and David Fraber. I'm not sure what's
happened to David Fraver. He was doing a lot of speaking out there. I have a little bit of an update on that. Oh okay, good, glad to hear that. So anyway, the one thing I was a little bit confused about this, but now there's more light shed on it. They actually saw a circular object below the surface of the water that appeared to be rendezvousing with the tic TAC. They think that it was about one hundred
yards across. I think this is all really really fascinating. Yeah, I think well Fraver has said that I knee deep in all of this, of course, because I've been writing these stories. So yeah, I'm immersed in the data. Fraver, I guess I said that he is. He said his piece. He's gone on CNN, Fox News, all the big news outlets and done his interviews, and so he's kind of he feels he's got
what he has to say out there, so he's done. We'll see, though, hopefully he does some more interviews, and you never know, people say that sometimes and they're still enticed by exciting new projects. So we'll see if he comes out. But from what I understand Corbel and I'll give I can give actually the listeners some exclusive news because I have done some investigation on
all of this for my story. But Jeremy Corbel says he has talked to Fraver about this document, and FRAVERR said that this document is the most accurate portrayal of what happened, because some people out on the internet were claiming that it wasn't real, and it wasn't as George knapclaimed, a military document prepared by and for the military. It seems as though it was prepared for by a third party by a contractor, most likely Bass Big Low Aerospace there their
department, but still, you know, using their investigation. Now along these lines, there's a lot of really kind of wild speculation in there, such as there was an object under the water and there was docking with the object
and stuff. Because what was seen, if you read the document, was a disturbance on the water below the AAV and one of the witnesses pilots described a disturbances fifty two one hundred feet round, and it looked like water going over a shoal or water being disturbed by, you know, a submerging object. Fravor disguised it as frothy, almost like boiling water for a short period of time under the object. Yeah, he essentially came in on the object.
They looked at it. He said, yeah, looked like this giant tictac, you know, almost like with a candy white covering. His wingman said that it looked like a whiteboard, you know, it was just white white. And when Fraverer came in to get close to it at boom was
gone. Took off at supersonic speeds and it at first the USS Princeton, which is a missile boat that was looking for it, didn't see it on a t radar when it took off, and then it saw it at twenty four thousand feet It was near the ocean, and all of a sudden it was at twenty four thousand feet over in the area that Fravor was training in
earlier in the day. So that was kind of interesting and along those lines that people were questioning whether or not it's a real document of course, we have favor's statement from Jeremy Corbel. Of course, those of us that know Jeremy Corbel know that he's an honest person, and that would be an accurate statement if Jeremy says so in my opinion. However, Leslie Kane has tweeted that they saw the document when they wrote their New York Times story, so
she can verify it's legitimate. She also feels, she said she when I contact her, sharesn't know who wrote it. She can't say for sure, but she feels it was probably Bass. And then I asked Alizondo about it, and he said that he at the time I talked to him hadn't seen the report from George's article, but he had seen a military report on this.
So the military report exists. And he also says, you know, he believes George Napp to be a very credible journalist, and if George Knapp says it's real, and his sources are good sources, and he absolutely believes George Knapp. So yeah, it's an amazing document that outlines this entire thing.
But the other things what's interesting is his speculation, which is kind of I mean, they go on to say the disturbance in the water could have been an object under the water, but there was a submarine that was part of their carrier group, and that submarine said they did not detect anything on
sonar, So the report says it could have been nothing there. However, it also could have been a disturbance on the water caused by the AAV that the AAV, or it could have been an object underwater which somehow had some sort of underwater stealth, or it could have been a stealth like an object that could not be seen by the human eye, that the object somehow used stealth, which is not surprising for maybe like a moof on report that someone
would speculate something like that, but for a document prepared for the military, that's quite shocking. Yeah, right, Well, they're basically just admitting that they have no idea what the technology is. Yeah, yeah, exactly, and that's why it's so important or should be important to them, because this is demonstrating, like Alessander keep saying, you know, technology beyond their own. So yeah, very shocking document. Eric Davis actually came on he got
mad at Nick Pope. Essentially Nick Pope was saying he wasn't doubting the report at all. He was saying that you're right that he was agreeing that the report doesn't seem like, you know, written by a military. In fact, I think he was speculating, speculating perhaps it was written by a you know, somebody contracted by the military. And he's right, But something that
Pope said got Eric Davis upset. And Eric Davis is an astrophysicist who has worked for BASS, and he said he knows that people who wrote the report that it's absolutely legitimate, and that he has written many reports for the military as a government contractor, and he typically you are not told what format to write your report, so you just take it upon yourself to write your report and whatever format you choose, and they typically accept your report in your format.
So it's not odd whatsoever that there's no military markings on it or anything like that. The reports in the format that it's in. So I feel, you know, it's really late to rest whether or not this is a legitimate report. I think it definitely is in that you know in the report that George and Nap did you know. He basically says that the meeting to view the document was arranged by Harry Reid, and that gives it quite a
bit of legitimate, you know, legitimacy right there. Agreed, I totally agree, and so but you know, it's just kind of frustrating you get those. It's been kind of weird with this whole thing. And I've experienced this ever since, you know, especially ever since we gave Tom DeLong the award for Researcher of the Year because he really had a large part in facilitating all of this. And in fact, there's a bunch of stories, including
in the Washington Post this week, regarding just that. So the Washington Repost wrote a story that UFOs are suddenly a serious news story and you can thank the guy from Blink one eighty two for that. That's an actual Washington Post story this week. So even though I wrote essentially the same story for the Huffington Post in December, right after all of this news came out, just
essentially saying, how you know, Tom DeLong facilitated all this happening. And Alexander did say that he was approached by to the Stars to join to the Stars. So and to the Stars wouldn't have existed if Tom DeLong wouldn't have put it together, and that's what facilitated all of this happening. It's up. I've really seen anything really happening more with to the Stars at this point have used, well, this is all to the Stars. I mean, all of this is part of all of that. I mean to the Stars.
We don't know exactly what documents to the Stars have, but it would make sense that they most likely have similar access to what the New York Times had, So I think they're they're definitely we haven't heard anything officially from them. They have been posting these stories, many of these stories that are coming
out, but and I'm not sure what we'll hear officially. Yeah, I must be on the wrong mailing list for them because I'm getting, you know, like promotionals, but I'm I'm not seeing any stories, So I got to check that out. Yeah, they're on their site, they're not really pushing them out. Tom DeLong is tweeting them through to the Stars, So they're tweeting them, and they're kind of posting them on their site, but they're not they're You're right, they're being very subtle about all of this.
And Tom has been very ever since December, he's been definitely taking a back seat, and I've been very quiet about all of this, and and I think it's been a good strategy because you know, there has been less talk about some of the more wild things he has said and more talk about the legitimacy of this project that he helped reveal. Yeah, he was probably told to tone it down a little, yeah, by the rest of the people on the team. Yeah. So yeah, that's about all. We're almost
out of time already. I saw that. Yeah, so we better wrap it up. But yeah, really really fun and interesting stuff going on right now. So as always, thanks for joining us for the news, mister Martin Willis. Yes, always fun. Thank you, and we'll be right back after this break with John Alexander. For those of you listening to kg r R, you'll hear some commercials. Those of you listening to the podcast,
we'll hear a short musical interlude, and we will return shortly. Welcome back to Open minds UFO Radio. I am at super excited, even more so than usual, I think, although I talk about always getting too excited, but very excited to have John Alexander joining me today. Thank you for joining me today. Oh glad to be here. So the last time we talked, I think was just after the news about the Advanced Aerospace Program the Pentagon program had come out, and you and I had talked, and we
talked with Nick Pope. But there's been new developments and more coming out, which is very interesting because you're kind of in the middle of all this because your association and friendship with Bigelow and your participation in his National Institute of Discovery Sciences, which was his original group, and BASS. So there's this new revelation that that George nab had written about and it's sort of starting to disseminate now into the mainstream media. I think it's a lot to digest and that's
where it's taking its time. But that this whole program started as the Advanced Aerospace West Weapon System Applications Program, and it's kind of what prompted BASS. You know, this department in big Lower Aerospace that handles kind of the more fringe topics to be created. So were you, I guess, aware of
all of this. Frankly not until very recently, and certainly not to the extent of it now, which is not surprising because you know, I was on the board with move On, I was a director or functional director with move On when we began working with Big Low and little did I know that the funding that you know, move On was receiving was I would imagine it would have to be part of this program as well. Yeah, I think
there's more to come out now. Part of it. I think that they were asking for T S. S CI clearances, top secret and special compartment, which I happened to have, but I was doing other things with Joint Special Operations University at the time. Mm hmm. It's a bit ironic also that you you know, had with your colleagues created you know, looked for kind of where kind of this this sort of research was going on in the government, and it turns out you became part of that research unwittingly that was
funded by the government. Well, I think by the government. Studied by the government is a topic that really needs some discussion and clarification. As you know. This coming week we have a conference for the SSE here in Las Vegas, and I'm going to be giving a talk that really addresses that. My point will be that we did the same thing about thirty years ago, and I was the one who did run that and put it together. But the issue of the government that the term is very hard to define. There
are three branches of the government, saw a note today. There's two million plus workers in the government, and even within the Department of Defense. The UFO community seems to assume that if something goes in to even a low level employee, somehow this percolates all the way to the Secretary of Defense, which is just not true. They wrote. You know, in UFOSS Conspiracies and Realities, I mentioned that, you know, people just don't understand how the
government works. I just gave you a figure of over two million people, like it's about two million, seven hundred thousand. And if I believe that, and I believe what we know to be true about the number of people who have seen UFOs, you would come up from that number with at least two hundred and seventy thousand government employees who had seen something that looks like a
UFO. But as I have pointed out that there is a difference between individual interests I saw something, I want to do it, and institutional responsibility, meaning the individuals who are responsible for an organization willing to put the resources out. And you know, the twinings just don't meet that frequently. You know, there's another issue that has come up, and that would be interesting to
get your take on, because contractors then becomes an issue in that. You know, in one statement that George knapp meet when it came to the NIMIT document that he recently shared that was leaked to him, was that it was prepared by the military for the military. And I think some of the confusion is it appears that this was actually a BASS document, but it was contracted by the military. And I've asked actually Elizondo and others, and Eric Davis
actually kind of spoke to this on Facebook. Does that constitute is a military document? What would you take me on that? No, that's a very interesting thing, and I mean UFOs are a minuscule piece of this. But the point is, and when these contracts go out and the way the FOY or freedom information laws are written, it has to be you know, information
that is owned by the government. And what happens when you have contractors as you do here, then they often consider the information proprietary even though it was contracted for and paid for by the government. I think it's kind of a shortfall on the law, but it allows you to hide Hill the whole universe of topics, and it just because the contractor did a piece of work for the government, that does not mean that that information is necessarily to be subject
for you and therefore being made public by the way. I think from a political standpoint, that's something we ought to work on because I think if the government pays for it, it ought to be public unless it's formally classified, right, And that that kind of goes back to some of the difficulty with
the prospect of getting more of these documents out. You know, earlier you and I had talked about there's probably much you said, there's much more you know that would come out in the a tip or a swap or what you know, all of this program, and Alessando and others have said the same
thing. In fact, I've got a he told me. This is the phrase he used, is you ain't seen nothing yet, baby, And but he seems very you know, even in our interview with the UFO Congress, I guess optimistic in that now that people know this program existed, they should be able to do foyas to get this information. But the people who have done foyas are not getting any information. And for the reasons you just stated
may never get official documents to FOYA. Well, there's another aspect to FOYA too, and that is that you don't put your sharpest knives in the drawer into Fourier programs. It is usually an afterthought, very low level, and it is not something as career enhancing, meaning that people are gee, I want to be a FOYO officer. You know this is where you get stuck.
So you know there are people with very little interest in getting that information as opposed to researchers who want access to it and probably should have access. I think there's two issues that are involved. You've mentioned an article that George Knapp put out and it was great, and there is a document that came out that has been published. Now what's interesting it does not have a header on it meaning who what organization had it and released it or wrote it,
nor is it dated. And I think those sorts of things would be of great help. Now I have talked to particular George and so others are working on this and one of the major problems that they have getting back to FOY is they interviewed a lot of people and in so doing they guaranteed them an anonymity. So the problem with anonymity is that the real names were written into
the reports and somebody has to go through and strike that out. And I'm told that this is no small task, lots and lots of things that have to be redacted. That does make sense, So I mean, literally, they just takes a long time to get this stuff done. It will and as I say, it's certainly not going to be a very high priority item. We've already seen, you know, delays from the government even acknowledging that these reports were valid, and you know, who released the video and that
sort of thing. But one of the things I think is critical here is that from a government perspective, a lot of this is risk reduction, meaning don't want to be embarrassed, and they feel this type of information basically from an institutional perspective, is quite embarrassing. Right, So there's that issue,
and there's also kind of an issue of misinterpretation. And I know you'd probably have some thoughts on this, and in that you know, these documents, Alexando said he left because this situation, this was not being taken seriously enough, and in fact, the things he's describing I think are items you've described. He's describing his interactions with other people in the military very similar to the
way that you describe them in your books and in your talks. However, you know, you've got a large part of like especially the UFO community, saying, oh, look, this is this is evidence of disclosure and they're releasing a little bit of information. You know, this is evidence that there's a lot more there and all of this. But actually in from giving Alessando's words and what's in that NIMTZ document where they said, you know, it
wasn't taken seriously. The reports weren't taken seriously, and there's a high level of ridicule. That's not what really all of this is showing. Well, and one of the things when you read the report about the pilots coming back and being confronted by contemporaries wearing tinfoil hats literally right, you know, and obviously they had personal ridicule, and that's one of the things that certainly of concerned and all this has been and then you have both the personal aspects of
that as well as institution. The institutions do not want to be ridiculed, and you know, tend to see this as an extraneous issue. One of the things I'm going to address in the conference is I did some number crunching, and my guess is that there are at least six thousand what we call flight grade officers and of those people who have been admirals or general since the
end of Blue Book and the Content Report. My point there is, again we would have to estimate that probably more than six hundred have seen UFOs or
something that they can't explain. So my question then is not why is the government doing this, but why isn't this much more widespread since you have that number of people who would have both interest and access to the resources to do it, and yet you find these things rare and very low level, you know handle, So it clearly is not a front burner issue, as you
know anticipated by the quote UFO community just do not understand the government. I think that you bring up the great point, and that's kind of part of the difference. So you talked to you just mentioned there's probably people in the government who have had these experiences, certainly when it comes to Skinwalker. In our past interviews, in fact, one of my favorite statements that you use
is that you all kind of confronted a precognitive sentient phenomena. Oh, I think a lot of people in the public kind of answer, or in uphology, answer that question differently. So your question is why aren't they looking into
it? And that was Elizondo's question at all. So you all as insiders are saying they have seen this stuff, but they're not doing anything about it, and that's stupid, that's ridiculous, whereas the public is kind of i'd say the key issue though, it is not career enhancing, right, meaning you are not going to get promoted or pushing the concept of let's go study UFOs or any of the other phenomena you might mention in transition, because we
also have familiar with the remote viewing program, and the point there was you had the same thing, You had questions of can you do this at all? But you also had a group and some of them very influential, who were very senior people, who said, yes, you can do that, but it's the work of the double and therefore we should not be involved. That's an interesting point too, because in George Knapp's story recently about you know, the funding that was going to BASS, is that there were people in
the government who had the concern had religious concerns about funding this program. Absolutely. Now I think this or any related program, you get into the personal belief systems, right, And I think what happened is that people kind of face this question, Okay, they've discovered this, they've discovered that, they've seen UFOs, they know that this is a real phenomenon they meaning quote unquote
government. And of course, like you talked about, people are kind of just seeing it as one big mass somehow, so they do know all of this stuff is going on, so they must be there's no way they're not looking into it. They must be just doing this in secret. And there's this vast you know, conspiracy where all of this discovery is being done in
secret. I think that's what happens is these people make that assumption. Well, secrecy is an issue, and I've spoken to that several times, and it's overly applied, often to prevent embarrassment, which is not a rational reason but an understandable one for you know, application of secrecy. Oh, these there are people who again are interested in want to get the information out,
but that is not necessarily why it's spread. Right, And like you said, unpopular that you said, I think that's what a lejand was saying. The problem, the fundamental problem. And again my UFO book I talked about this directly, is how the government works. And by the way, it is not unique to the civilian population that don't understand this. This is something that is true inside the government as well. It is amazing how many little
war story but I was once a Department of Army inspector general. My boss, who was a three star, actually had to create a month long course where we took lieutenant colonels such as my Sava went in as a lieutenant colonel and you had to go to school to learn just how the government works. So here are people probably with an average of fifteen to twenty years in the government at you know, increasing the higher levels, that has no basic concept
of how the all functions. It's very complex, right, So how did you feel with the discovery of the news you know, that story, learning very recently about defending that was going into the what you all were doing. I'm not quite tracking that feel about which now, So how did you feel when you found out that, you know, your skin Walker investigations, for example, were you know, part of this funding that that Harry Reid hadn't
been able to acquire for this advanced Serospace Weapon System Applications program. Yeah, well, there in lies part of the problem is they were extrapolating as to what's the appropriate application. I have article that will be coming out following week as a matter of fact, Edge Science that addresses a lot of this. The Yeah, there is no Department of Good Ideas since anywhere in the government, and so anybody who's doing these sorts of things have got to attribute them
to the institutional responsibility of that organization. Department of Defense deals with threats, and hence, you know when they did it, they called it a threat. In fairness, I did exactly the same thing thirty years ago when I was looking for funding, and the issue was it's got to be a threat.
And again getting back to how the government works. Once you have issue, the money comes from is appropriated from Congress, and you have to have both an appropriations bill, which is the money can be spent, and an author of zation bill, which is separate from another group of Congress people. It said, yay, verily, you can now actually spend the money.
So again, terribly complex. One of the things that can happen is when you're at relatively low levels and I'm not talking about low levels from our personal bank account here, so you're talking you know, three, four or five million dollars a year. You can probably hide that pretty well, but it is a zero sum game. And that what happens is that even in the black world there everything is tossed up in the air and there are all those
people quote looking for money. That was one of my favorite things that I was in the building, pentygonten people that I'm looking for money and a little money doesn't grow on trees or it's not hidden in pots in the corner. What it means is you're going to raise somebody else's program. And these sorts of issues, be it remote viewing or UFOs or anything that sounds like that,
are just eminently attackable. And and that is from what I understand, what happened to Amulaunder's program is that people did come and actually siphon off the money, saying, you know, here's what the congressional language says. What we're doing fits with that description. Therefore, I want your money. I see, So I guess getting back, did you have any That's all really helpful. But I'm wondering if you had, like any emotional reaction, like
if you felt I guess just how you felt. I mean it, I would imagine that it would feel kind of strange to know that you know, the this projects you you are working on that you probably assumed we're just completely funded by Bigelow. Also we had money coming from the Department of Defense. Well, it's always interesting, as you've heard me describe and I will again, is that whatever we're dealing with is at least as complex as AIDS or cancer or those sorts of things. And I do think we need to have
an integrated response if we're going to even get to first base. As you've heard me say before, I don't think we're at the point of asking the right questions. Do I have an emotional involvement, And I mean, I'm certainly curious, but glad to see that things are working out. As you saw my more recent book. You know, we've had interactions with various phenomena all over the world, so this stuff is ubiquitous and complex and perplexing.
One of the issues again in the article I wrote to you, is that you know, it just doesn't follow our basic rules of what science should do, and many of the things that we observe present conundrums and paradoxes, and that was certainly true at the ranch. We've got to go to break right now, so we will be right back and we'll continue on this and talk more about the SSE. But I'm talking to John Alexander. You're listening to Open Mind GFO Radio, and we'll be right back after this short break.
We are back. You're listening to Open Mind's UFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we've got John Alexander with us here talking about some of this new revelations around the Department of Defense. And I think, you know, what you offer is unique because I don't think like you talked about, you know, even some of the lieutenant colonels had to go through a class on how the government runs. And that's what it's great that you.
I think most people don't feel like they want to waste their time describing this sort of thing to certain populations, especially people interested in UFOs, and so I think we have a unique opportunity with you willing to educate people on all of this. Well, let's say they're very complex. Let me address some
of the things that have popped in in the report that George mentioned. I might mention I did an interview with in just a couple of days ago, has not yet aired, But the point was that he is gettinghemly attacked by the quote UFO crowd and they look at the tic TAC video and people said, always just a balloon. It's just that, And it's interesting how they
isolate the information. The video is interesting, but when one understands that it was corroborated by three of the most sophisticated radar systems that we have, as well as the personal observation of the pilots that were flying and captured it on film. So when you look at the totality of the evidence, it just does not respond to any of these strange, you know, correlations. People are always just say, you don't pick your thing. That's a great point.
Even the pilot who captured that video says, I don't know if this is, you know, the same thing that Favor and others had seen during the real kind of big event that occurred earlier in the day. It was it was a short video that of an object they caught on radar for a short period of time. So the video itself is not the end all be all, of course, it's it's the only amount of kind of physical evidence
of but it's not necessarily what they saw. And what they saw was captured, like you said, on radar, witnessed by many of the pilots, and that's the actual event that that video is not even a part of. And it is weird, you're right, but you get this also, you get at the point is that you have multisensory data, multiple sources, hard data. You're not relying on the personal observation of individual You're not relying on
just the accuracy of the video itself. And yet the skeptics, and many of them here, like the UFO community itself, skeptics tend to go put it for that reason. And as George has said, he even have people saying, oh, you just made up the whole thing, just not true. It is interesting, you know how this information came out, because you know, some of this was actually published in aviation magazines by the pilots themselves,
not picked up on by the UFO community. Yeah, I think it was a note I know myself and too mothers had found it and posted it. It was a very interesting but you know, putting all the pieces together
is what's been difficult. And that's another interesting aspect is that you know, these guys, obviously in the document itself faced a lot of ridicule, and there was one pilot who said the guy who captured that Fleer video said he did not release the video to the intelligence officers when asked, he kept it
and I would assume that he gave it to somebody or someone. Then we could leak that video years ago, because that video did get out to the Internet prior to the New York Times story which showed the actual you know, the video that we can track back to the Department of Defense in Alzando's group.
But it's a complicated story where people it's just very complicated story. So one of the issues I point to that that I have seen is one a contrary to the UFO community, they specifically said they were not required to sign non disclosure agreements or form the secrecy on it, which is a good point to what you're saying and what the document says. They didn't take it seriously. They didn't. It wasn't Oh, this needs to go to the Majestic
twelve and everything needs to be secret. We need to maybe take out these pilots and witnesses like X files or something. It was a well, as we understand it, that Altho Alessandro had had personal encounters with the Secretary of Defense. That secretary didn't really learn about the release until maybe hours two minutes before the New York Times actually posted that article. So this stuff does not
flow uphill as the UFO community believes. So the SSSE, I mean, I think what you've described here, we had Bigelow doing his best to put together a group of people to investigate this phenomena. But of course you all struggled with that. It was difficult because it was a as you described, it kind of was very enigmatic, and it seemed like it knew what you
were going to do before you did it. So you are speaking and this is fascinating with this organization called the SSE, the scientific Maybe you could describe who and what the SSE is well as the Society for Scientific Exploration. This is the thirty seventh annual conference has been around that long. We're also meeting with IRVA, the International Remote Viewing Association, so it's a joint session.
But SSSE was formed by some very very very senior sciences. We're going to pay tribute to Robert John at this last year, and Bob was the professor and the head of the Department of Engineering at Princeton, so the people that formed this another Peter Sturrock will be there. He is one of the premier people in high power microwave research. Again very senior people who said we're willing to go wherever the data go, but we ought to have open minds about
this. I might mention that Peter wrote a book called a Tale of Two Sciences, and one he talked about what he had done with high powered microwaves and how that data were received, and then the other when he tried to introduce UFOs, he actually wrote a book called the UFO with Nigma, based on a conference again high level scientists, and how the reaction of the two sciences with the equally competing compelling data just received totally differently with this scientific organization.
I mean, do you feel that is a better arena for the investigation of this. I mean does the government even need to be involved? And if so, I mean, should they be working with at a university or some other science based organization. Well, I guess you should come and hear my talk. I am going to address that issue, and that is I guess now I've evolved on this, is that this is not in the government
domain. It just does not mean that they should necessarily have some aspects to what the government does bring a particularly Department of Defense, or some very advanced sense systems and the way to collect data. And that's certainly true in satellite and all the avionic systems that are out there. They do bring some brain power. We have the government labs and that that can do adequate analysis should they so choose. But as you've heard me say many times, I think
that these are interrelated phenomena. And it certainly doesn't stop start with UFOs, but you have continuation of consciousness, life after death, remote viewing, psychokinesis, et cetera, et cetera. And I think they're all interrelated. And I don't think that we have any expectation that the government would be the premiere
lead agency in studying any of those phenomena. So I do think, and one of the things I'm going to call for is that what we should develop is something like the Human Genome Project, where you had a number of countries involved, numbers of universities, and most importantly data sharing. And the problem with government research is that you tend not to get the shared except outside of
very small circles. What and you know, it almost seems like another danger of that actually this issue being taken more seriously, like by the military. So for example, the Nimits case actually triggering oh you know, maybe there
is something here, it might actually then trigger more secrecy. I mean, if it was taken seriously and this is a possible, you know, an unknown object of advanced nature, then perhaps it would be necessary that to classify it because it does perhaps demonstrate a threat that would need to be examined and understood, and that information probably then should not be shared. Oh that's one aspect that the other is everything you don't understand does not constitute a threat.
And right, and Alexander kind of speaks to this. And as soon as Nick Pope and and you kind of mentioned it earlier, at least when the Department of Defense is justifying funding, they have to classify it as a threat. But do you believe it it would be it's important for the military to classify the unknown as a threat. Frankly our potential. No Oka in general,
no often do. But again we do not like to have things we don't understand or get questioned about things you don't understand, And in some aspects it's just easier to classify it. I was involved in the study back at the beginning of the Global War on Terror two thousand and two timeframe, at sitting in meetings at the Office of the Secretary of Defense, a joint staff, and I was reading things and they were classified, and I'm going,
what is classified about this? If this is classified the New York Times was to be top secret, and why do you do this? And the answer was it's easier to classify everything to figure out, you know, what we need to protect, which is a horrible answer and terribly expensive, but one that's often employed. And these are concerned for the scientists and the type of people you have at SSE, in particular yourself because of your background in defense
and your association. I guess with you know Bigelow in these projects. But this topic, or at least this Bigelow project is a lot is going to be a part of your event next week in that you're actually doing a tour to big Yellow Aerospace and is Bigelow Aerospace going to show you? I mean, do you know what the agenda is? Is it going to be beyond just them showing you what they're doing in space and more along what BASS is
looking into. No, we're not going on the UFO tour on it, and will say that what they have done just in the regular space aspects is absolutely phenomenal and making huge leaps. We were always amazed and watching Bob work you know, warp speak compared to what NASA is doing. So that's what it's going to be. A better warn folks that tour sold out. We're not accepting any anymore people for that all that they can walk in to the conference. Now. It's like I said, I think there's a need to
share data and get it into the public domain. What we're dealing with is so complex that you're not going to get it without a coordinated effort and sharing of data. Hence looking at it like Human Genome Project. So another person at the SEC who is of interest in all of this very much so, is how put up? In fact, did you read the recent New York or Newsweek article? Yes, and they essentially kind of tried to frame how put of its kind of a goofy, kind of fringe non credible person,
right, I mean, do you what is your take on that? Well, it's terrible. It is highly credible when you get into zero point energy. He wrote the premier documents that appeared in Fiz Rev and FIZZ Letters, which are you know, the premier document's highest standards in the field of physics. Of course he has a remote viewing aspect. They did at SRI and I think this is part of the problem that you see with us the word mainstream media, but the media as well as the government who always have to
have snide remarks. There was an article I just saw. It was carried on Drudge but from and Stripes of all things, and they also took kind of a sideway shot. I might mention that Hell is going to get the Dinsdale Award, which is a biannual award that is put out by the SSE four people who have done premiere research. It's kind of like a if you will, but highly credible. I might mention he was involved with the study
that I did thirty years ago. He was doing key work with the Big Low and the Dea study, and now with to the Stars private organization as well. I think he's the lead scientist there. And what is this sense? Is there a kind of a sense of excitement within the SSE with these new revelations, perhaps even a sense of vindication. I think it's a step too far. Certain people who are interest I might mention that the SS is
actually just that scientific exploration on a very broad front. There are people who are interested in many different phenomenons, certainly consciousness as a key piece of that. Then you've got some of their true skeptics as opposed to the bunkers, if you will, man. But they come in looking for you know, hard data as opposed to just opinion and neat stories about stuff that happened.
Yeah, I mean one of the interesting aspects. Another you know, this will probably be the last time we'll have or last thing we'll have time to touch on. Is this statement from the senior manager, the best senior manager that Careless also released And it doesn't say who this person is, but this idea of using humans kind of their interaction, but using the human body as
a readout system for what it callsed UFO effects. But I get the sentiment, and you can let me know what you think you're closer to this that they use that term UFO to kind of represent the entire paranormal kind of genre, at least aspect of what you are we're looking at. Well, yeah, that's not a simple it might sound. Again, you get back to if you have a fund to project, which they did, you have to
stay within certain operational parameters to justify the application of funds. I do think that the people are involved, and certainly the ones who had personal experiences with say that again, this is complex and that you do have human sensor systems. From a legal perspective, you'd have to be very careful with that terminology because of protocols in human use things. You said you're using as a sensor to attract bad things that would probably not fly by the scientific review boards human
use boards. Is that what's that part of it? Trying to use the humans as a magnet for a phenomena. Well, we know that again, you have individuals who seem to be more susceptible than others. We talked about, you know, the infamous Skinwalker ranch. I was up there many times and I can't say I had any you know, anomalous experience myself, although I think they did occur, and you bumped that against what you know is Eric Davis, who certainly reported sensing things that others of us did not.
Fascinating stuff. So there's a lot of information here and a lot too unpacked. So I know we've kind of we have been all over the place, and I don't know, it makes my mind's been getting into all of this because there's just so many branches and so much it's just so complicated. So thank you for judging through all of this, and I mean this has been extremely insightful. So thank you for joining us again on the show. Okay,
thank you all home rule yep. I hope you all have a successful conference and you are actually hosting it, are you the MC, Well not the MC, but I am the local host. Okay, great, well that's wonderful. So I hope you have a great conference. And I'm sure many of my listeners wish to know they would have could be there, and some of them will be great, that's true, some will. Thank you so much to John Alexander for joining us today. What a great interview.
It's you know, my mind is boggled, just there's so much to all of this so much to the Skinwalker Ranch case, so much to everything that's going on. What we're learning about, how this whole Pentagon project happened, how the Skinwalker Ranch is a part of that, and all of these other fats. It's how the government works, why things happen the way they do. And John Alexander is of course right in the middle of all of this.
He has spent you know, a career in Army intelligence working also at Los Alamos Laboratories, and he's kind of had a career working in these arenas and also with all of these people. He's been close to Big Low, he's been part of the National Institute of Discovery Sciences in these up until you know, the more recent investigations. So he is right in the middle and
an important person to uh to get insight from. He there's very few that have that level of inside knowledge that he does, so uh and there's so many Haven news to go down and that you know, you can probably hear it. My brain was kind of cranking along and and kind of taking these left and right turns almost like these alleged tic tac UFOs do and uh, and there's we'll be unpacking a lot of this for a long time, and you know, I keep hearing. I've heard from Elizondo himself. He said
to me recently that I ain't seen nothing yet, baby. So I guess there's a lot more coming, very very exciting times for people in this field. That reminds me. Do check out Den of Geek. I do have an article up on the Nimitz case, and I will have some more articles coming out about this to kind of unpack it all and put it all out there and hopefully explain it in a way that it's more digestible to just their regular person. So do check out the SSE if you're in Las Vegas,
an excellent organization is going to be really important. A lot of the scientists tied to this will be there. Of course, Alexander and help put Of himself will also be there. The Biglow tour is sold out, it sounds like, but there's still a lot more going on, so check that out. Also, get John Alexander's book. I think it's a very important book. You can find that at his website. Just google John B. Alexander
b as a Boy John B. Alexander and you'll find him. We also will have links to both the SSE and John's website at the note for the show. Otherwise, do check out the UFO Congress website. There's new stuff all the time, new videos that are posted, and a ton of new T shirts. Is super cool t shirts we had this year. Now they are posted on the store so you can purchase them. You're going to love them, so do check out the store. Otherwise. That is it.
Thank you to Caleb Hanks for the opening and close music. Thank you to Martin Willis for joining us with the news. Thank you for Systematics for the bumper music, and thank you to you the listener. Until next time, Audio Smooth, Tatos Moss