Jim Dilettoso, UFO Photo Analyst

Love Talk Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with your host ale Of Hondro Rojash. Hello, ladies and gentlemen, it is Alejandro pi Rojas and we have a great show today. We've have another in studio guest, which is always fun because then I'm not as lonely in here, and we just luckily have some great researchers and people out here in Phoenix, so we have enough

people to come out here. Today. We have Jim Delo Toso and of course people in the area are definitely going to know that name, and if you've watched UFO documentaries then I'm sure you're going to know as well, because he's in a lot of them. Does a lot of photo analysis. Phoenix Lights of course, with a big deal out here and around the world, and Jim was pretty much the lead photo and analyst there. You saw him

on almost every Phoenix Lights story. So we'll talk about that. Some people don't know that he looked into the Billy Meyers pictures as well, so we'll talk a lot about all of that, and it's going to be a lot of fun. But let's let's get into the news so we can get to some of that cool stuff in the news this week without a lot of interesting things. One of them Russia Today, is a website that covers lots of Russian news, and there's some people who videotaped a large pyramid UFO over Kremlin,

so people are still looking into this. The police are interesting enough in the area. Didn't have any comments, but Russia Today you can see a couple stories, and of course all of these news stories are linked at openminds dot tv right there on the front page under our daily UFO headlines, and

you'll be able to watch those videos. So very cool. And I know there's a couple more videos that showed up on YouTube today that are kind of the full length of that video, and we'll be getting a hold of us and posting those as soon as possible, probably by the end of the day or in the morning as well. So that was a really cool one.

Also, as usual, lots of news in the UK. It's actually slowed down a little bit that he did have, you know, half a dozen stories almost every day about UFOs in the UK for a while there when the mod was releasing some of their files. It slowed down a little bit. But a gentleman by the name of Richard Hall, who's a researcher out there. His website is richplanet dot net. He did a couple cool things this week. First of all, David Cameron, it's the head of the Conservative

Party out there. He went to one of his events and he asked them about UFOs and luckily this was all recorded, recorded and he was able to put this on his website. And David Cameron kind of made a joke. You know, everybody's got to have their pat UFO joke, and he's got to say, well, I would think the other party is from a different planet if I didn't know any better, so, you know, the typical

politician joke. But then he apologized for joking around and says, you know, I take everything serious and I'm all for openness and transparency in government. So if I found anything out, I'd let the people know, so kind of another pat answer. But it's just cool. It's always exciting when people are brave enough to ask, because the more this happens, I think it

shows that, you know, this really is on people's minds. People are very interested in what's going on. We talked about last week with Jeff Peckman starting his ballot Initiative in Denver and how some of those stories had pools which showed that people are really in favor of finding out more about UF and extra terrestrials. So another thing that rich Richard Hall did is a documentary called Hidden

Truth, and it's on crop circles. And in this documentary he's pretty much concluding that he thinks that m I five, which is pretty much the British Intelligence Agency. In fact am I extends for military intelligence. The MI five is really who, you know, James Bond would have worked for if he was a real dude. But they, he has concluded, had had some

involvement with the faking of crop circles. We know there are a lot of people who make crop circles for artistic reasons and for fun, and there's a website out there crop circle Makers, and they're pretty much the main crop circle makers, at least human wise, the known crop circles that we know are

being made by humans. And they have a website and they're very active, and he kind of talks about their funding, how they're very well funded and they have all these anonymous sources for their funding, so some interesting conclusions. He also interviews Colin Andrews on that who's a famous crop circle researcher out there.

And Colin Andrews actually has a story and kind of in appreciation for this documentary on his website, he released the name of a CIA agent he's talked about in the past, and this CIA agent approached him and tried to recruit him. Essentially almost said you're recruited, you're working for us now, and Colin said, I don't think so, mich Kel. I always do the

British accents for the British people, but thank you. But Colin Andrews named finally for the first time, this CIA agent and he said his name was Sandy Reid r E I D. So we'll all have to look into this character and find out about his past. So those are some of the interesting stories in the UK. One more that came out was in The Sun, that's the big tabloid. They're also a paper that's taken seriously, even though they have like the page five girls, which are the bikini girls and bikinis

are optional. Maxwell's paper. No, I don't know who has the paper, but it's very big and it is, you know, one of the biggest papers out there. Even though it is tabloid and some of the serious news stories are broken there, but they have amazing UFO pictures of two thousand and nine up there, so you can go check that out. Remember this

is all also on Openminds dot tv, so that's the UK. Moving back to the States, there's been some articles about some information some gentleman has sent out there, and one of the stories is called why aren't you building your own UFO yet? And that's on I own nine to site. You might know IO nine. They're kind of a techie underground type of website, so if you're into technical stuff and the latest and greatest gadgets and sci fi,

you'll see that kind of stuff there. But they posted a story about this guy who sent out a press release and he's trying to get some money from Australia actually also but he lists he's got thousands of pages on his website and you can go look at this stuff for free, and it shows all of the different patents going back to the fifties that introduces or has technology relates to technology similar to what people are seeing when they describe UFOs. So that's some

interesting information. In fact, he's pretty much saying with the information on the website. Here you can build your own UFO, and there's several different types. It's not just kind of electromagnetism, but it's several different ways that people are tapping into these. He's not calling it anti gravity, but ways to limit the gravity that make the devices fly. So some of the patents he talks about our worst technologies that came from Nikola Tesla and the brown b filled

effect you might be familiar with. So you'll have to check this out, especially if you're a tech type person. That's really interesting. If you do build your own UFO, please get a hold of us here at open Minds and we'll give your address. You can fly on over. We'll make a space for you in our parking lot and we'd love to see it. Maybe we'll even pay you to put an open mind flows go on the side of it flying around downtown. So that's some cool news. This is really weird

too. A few stories on UFO's landing and extraterrestrials coming out of them. In fact, the UFO examiner who writes about Moofon talked about a couple of moove on reports that they got from Texas and both of these reports were of UFOs landing and creatures coming out of these uf It's our favorite kind creatures. Yeah sure, yeah, that's much more exciting. I'm really bored with just the you know, the UFOs flying around. You know, people have sightings.

That's great, even you know, I want to see one up close. I want to have someone fly one over that I can ride and we can put our logo on. Or I want to see one land with a strange creatures that come out so we could say hi. And I don't want the abduction type scenario to happen, you know, I no thanks some prog or anything, but I'm happy to talk with them. But another one of these cases was posted by the People magazine Daily and they talked about a UFO

landing in Barstow, California. So maybe we're at the next stage where they're going to start landing and saying hi, and we can invite them over for dinner. Hopefully they were. I don't know. I was reading on some website that they assumed that they jetsted blood plasma through their skin. I don't think that's the case. That would be awful, but I hope they're vegetarians. I know that this guy right here, yes, this little creature we

have that it's an iargan. I've talked about it before one of Wendell Stevens' cases, and that they said they were vegetarians. Good for them. Yeah, I think it's the right way to go. All right. So there's our news for the week. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for joining us for that. Go to Open Minds to that TV and on the front page you'll see more about that. I should cover at least a couple of our cool stories we've posted here too, and that would be from Philip Mantle.

He wrote us a story of UK Royal Marines who had a sighting in nineteen seventy one and they reported it. In fact, the guy who wrote it talked about his boss essentially having him collect all the photos and reports on it and they were sent into the Home Office or wherever the UK military send that stuff. But you know, the MOD has been releasing UFO files and these

haven't shown up in those files. So why not If the UK government is truly releasing everything they know about UFO, why aren't they releasing this information? In fact, Nick Pope, we did the story last week about how the UK the mod said, don't call us anymore if you have a UFO siding.

We don't want to hear it. We're closing down our hotlines. So we got a response from Nick Pope and asked him what he thought, and he said, well, even though officially maybe they're not collecting reports, you know, someone's got to be collecting them, maybe it's not an official capacity. So that's the newest story we've got out. And if you've been reading the alien autopsy stories that Marizio has been putting out, and we're going to

have number three posted by the end of the day. This one is a couple of corners in Italy who actually I think they worked for the Vatican or with them. I mean, they're very well known corners and they watched the video with Mauricio and they had some comments to make until we're posting all of their comments. And this has been a highly controversial, of course case an issue, and you, my guests for today, Jim, are no stranger to highly controversial cases. Out of you, that's right. I wear my

controversial suits whenever possible. Yep, there you are. Oh, so let's get into it. Thanks for joining us. Here today, happy to be here, thank you. And I wanted to start off with just kind of going back to where you were in life when you started looking into UFOs and why you decided to tackle that. That was in the seventies and I was

in the business of audio and video. I had a company that rented measurement equipment, signal processing equipment, solo scopes, real time analyzers, and had that for a couple of years in the mid seventies, and then I started one of the country's leading rock and roll touring companies, Sound and Lights trucks, touring around doing that, but you don't tour in the winter, and we were doing some pretty well known bands Three Dog Night, Moody Blues,

and many others, and you don't tour in the winter. You look for other things to do. And with the equipment that we had that included generators in that measurement equipment and lighting equipment. We worked in the film industry in Arizona became our winter headquarters because it was a winter headquarters for b movies. So in the winter of eineteen seventy eight, I met Socrates ballas he was producing a movie on the shroud of Turin and it is the one that's out

that's narrated by Richard Burton. And when they were in pre production, they were looking for someone who could make some interface equipment so that the scientific iridium equipment could convert those images and scientific measurements to film. We're working on that project that winter, and Socrates Ballas introduced us to another filmmaker named John Stephanelli. John Stephanelli was working with APRO in Tucson to develop a method for analyzing

pictures. So John Stefanelli introduced us to Jim Lorenzen and Wendell Stevens to see if because of our approach in the way that we have worked on his project, that perhaps we would develop a method for appro on analysis of UFO pictures.

And I agreed to do that since it would take about a year, I said to find out the processes, the equipment, the manufacturers, the software, the techniques that would be a repeatable method to do that an appro Just so people know, it was the association of I don't know, aerial phenomena Research Organizations. Yes, and at that time it was a worldwide organization with representatives from most every country in the world. Then it was an academic

organization what Nightcap, APRO and KUKO someone started by Heinech. We're pretty much the big ones to begin with, Yes, before they all kind of faded

out and move one became the foretfront. Yes. I traveled with Wendell Stevens occasionally that year to go to pig image processing trade shows and the goal was to find the equipment manufacturers, find out from the manufacturers who owned their equipment that we could go to as service providers in order to determine a repeatable method, create a method, and what are the issues to analyze pictures of unknown objects? What's their size, how far away from the camera are they?

Have they been superimposed? Are they a scale model? And all the issues that would be related to that. And I published a paper on that, a white paper on that process in nineteen seventy nine at the annual APRO conference that year. Subsequently, I was asked if we would analyze forty pictures out of apro's collection, which included the billion Meyer pictures. What was the feeling of the APRO people back then about the million Myer photos. They had no

position on it. It was, you know, no position that I could interpret my sense of it was that they had included some known models in the batch of forty in order to determine the success of the testing process, and at that time the process was a sequence of different labs to go to. There wasn't a place other than ground saucer Watch that tested UFO pictures. And

the factground saucer Watch went to a particular manufacturer and did it there. We went to that facility also, and my goal was to develop a repeatable process and be done with it. But for the two years that I was supervising that process, the labs all signed and we had them sign non disclosure agreements, which means we won't talk about the fact that we're coming here, and you won't talk about the fact that you even know us. So how did

you feel about getting involved with all of this at this point? Well, you know, I had two hats that I wore. One was the rock and roll business, and which is a business. It's a lot of fun, but it is a business. And the other was my scientific measurement business, which was a precise and confidential business. So the combination of the two, I felt like the Blue his brothers on a mission from God to Uh to do some private analysis. So it was it was so you weren't apposed

to it. I wasn't opposed to it, but it was pro bono. There was no one to pay me to do it, nor did I ever ask for anyone to pay me to do it. And some of the cases were very costly once I got involved with it, with money out of pocket, which a lot of people wouldn't know. You know how much it really cost to send a few people running around doing things, but it would be tens of thousands of dollars. Fortunately I had cash flow from from the music

business in order to do that. Yes, it's interesting too because Marizio was a rock and roll writer to begin with Andy Talbot, who I had on it was very scientific minded. Now you still work as a rock and roll producer. So well, that's it. From rock and roll, the UF those and back right, and the business continued successfully for many years, and

we added other divisions. We added a computer graphics and Animation Service Bureau in the late eighties and we set up shop inside of Arizona State University at the Computer Institute, which I was one of the founders of. So out there in the real world, our work was very well known, was given the high levels of scientific credibility. Meanwhile, over in the UFO community, we

were the target for hand grenades. So I was always reticent to go over into the UFO community and spend a lot of time there explaining what we were doing, because very few people ever wanted to see the scientific reports or the analysis or the techniques of the way we did it, which was based on for ends methods. I guess it's kind of like when you're driving your car. Like for me, I'm not a mechanical type of person. I don't want to know what's going on under the hood. Yes, as long as

it's working. So probably a lot of people are like that. I know in this field, a lot of people are like, tell me if it's real or not. I don't know the technical details about what you're doing with that, but I just want to know if it's really Yes. But in reality, you have to spend a lot of time analyzing it because there's a lot of armchair skeptics. You're going to say, yeah, what about this,

what about that? And it can take many, many hours to analyze one photograph, particularly in the seventies and eighties when equipment was limited a scanner. A scanner was eighty thousand dollars. Wow. Then the resolution, the software, the techniques of doing it were costly. But the issues, the issues, the fundamental wish use then and now we're still the same. How big is it? How far away is it? You know? Is it a dust particle, is it a flare? Is it a cloud? Is

it an airplane light? And what are the characteristics to do that? So we built an extensive database of known objects, and when we have unknowns, we extract the data from the unknown, compare it to the database of knowns, try to get a match. Like fingerprints, you have a database of millions of fingerprints that are known. You get a fingerprint that's unknown. You extract the data as best you can for the fingerprint that's that's left, and try to get a match. If you don't get a match, well it's

an unknown guy. If you don't get a match in analyzing the photographs, it's an unknown. Unknown unknown doesn't mean it's an alien's basecraft, means that we don't have a match in the database. So with the unknowns, how often were you finding lots of knowns with the apro material? Well, you know, I don't know how to classify that as a lot of nons.

I mean, I would get knowns, I would get unknowns, would I would get I guess that you were finding with those in the apro forty, I would say there was twenty that were unknown, ten that were or so that were airplanes or light reflections. That was a key thing to determine the software, to determine if an object is light emitting or light reflecting gets round? Okay, is it a disc or is it an orb? Does it have curvature to it? Or is it you know, I'm saying, is

it a coin or is it a ball? Is it a disc? Or is it orb? And I mean many, many, many issues. And I went to lots of experts, lots and lots of experts, including Michael Maelan, who years later is known as Richard Hoagland's nemesis. But at the time, Michael Maelan was working at jeff Propulsion Laboratory and working at Arizona State University and was quite open minded about testing the Billy Meyer photographs interesting and he

found no evidence of a hoax. He couldn't find any evidence that it was a small model. And that's really what we are looking for then is this a small model and what are the characteristics? And since we were looking at film, one of the things was if it was superimposed, that we would look for multiple grain patterns, and the multiple grain patterns show up in the image area, but would be different in the sprocket areas. You know where

the sprocket holes are in the film. Well, if you're superimposing images, you'll get two grain patterns in the in the square imagery in the middle, but out in the sprocket area, which we were also analyzing, we would we would have other grain issues grained to look at. So in the billy Meyer pictures that we looked at, second and third generation film is useful.

Is useful because we then have more grain patterns to look at to be able to see if there's more grain patterns in the image area than there is in the sprocket area. And never found that in the in the billy Meyer case. And as the years went on, a lot of hearsay about a lot of hearsay about so and so tested it and found it to be a hoax. No white paper's ever written, but a lot of emotional power behind the skeptics saying, well, we proved it to be a hoax. Well,

where how what showed me the testing? Well, and that's how I feel about billy Meyer. You know everybody, it's such a heated, controversial debate. Yes, and I agree with you that a lot of people will say that's easy to do, I can do it. But nobody's without photoshop has demonstrated that they can do it or written up how they have discovered these things

to be hoax. It's just like you're saying, I mean, if someone was able to write something up, do an analysis, show us with the technology they had back at the time, how it could be done, that would be something different. But to my knowledge, and I've everywhere I've looked,

even talking to the skeptics, nobody's done that. The biggest miss there was someone just like last year, who was reproducing some billy Meyer photos but he was using photoshop, yes, and he was saying, look there, I'll fix I can do this to a photoshop now, Well, photoshop didn't exist in the seventies. Boll I took those pictures. I'm not an advocate or a promoter of the billy Meyer case. I do analysis, and I

stand by my work. Of not being able to find evidence of a hoax or going to match doesn't mean that I'm authenticating the fact that it's an alien spacecraft. But out there and the rest of the world the techniques that I use. I've been an expert witness in murder cases in court analyzing video night time case where there's an unclear person committing a crime and who is that person?

So in a court of law, I can testify in a murder case where someone's life is at stake also and consider an expert witness in that. But over in the UFO arena target for hand grenades, and that just goes along with it. I mean, that's that's part of it. It used to bother me a lot, doesn't bother me anymore. It bothers me when my daughter who's ten, looks up Daddy on the Internet and finds, Daddy, are you really a con man? You no, Savannah. People can

write anything they want. The real important thing about any case is to study the evidence available and prepare it as though it's going to be admissible in a case in the court case as evidence. And to that degree, I decided many many years ago to follow forensic standards, and there's there's many issues. You know, people flip flop all the time, but well you can't. You can't test anything but the original or the second generation or has to be

film. Hey, you do the best that you can with which you have and what's made available. And you can test second generation, you can test third generation. Now, have you had the opportunity to test the originals on the Myer case? Four four pieces of film that were the piece of film that were in his camera. Okay, and and this is is this the motion film or the stills? Okay? This is stills? And found no evidence of a hoax, found no sequence processes by which he could do it

with the technologies available. And our team Tom Welch and Lee Elders went to the local post office, went to the local drug store, went to the places where Billy goes to take his film and get it processed. And how does he do it? Well, he comes in with his camera and opens it up on my desk and gets an envelope and puts it in and hand it to me. And I've processed the film and bring it back and hand

it to him. There's the pictures, so he's not operating an optical lab, and we went to see Wally Gentleman, who was one of the better known model makers in Hollywood, worked at Lynnwood Dune's world famous Film Effects of

Hollywood company. They did films such as two thousand and one, and Lynwood had done the original King Kong and they at that point had accumulated a lot of history and a lot of expertise and optical effects, and we had Wally Gentleman analyzed how he thought what would it take in order to recreate that and two thousand and one was ground breaking for its time. It's amazing to look at that movie and look at Star Trek, the original series, and see

this huge gap between the quality in the fact. And unbeknownst to me, Wendel stevens Lee Elders and Tom Welch had Wally Gentleman make a scale model, took it to Switzerland, hung it on a fish line at a twenty inch diameter scale model, and Billy Meyer and all of them took photographs of it and then brought the photographs back to me in Arizona to analyze. And I could tell within minutes in my analysis technique, this is about nineteen eighty one.

What are some of the telltale signs that you're able to identify when it's a small object. Yeah, it's kind of what a painter does. An oil painter is going to paint a portrait, and the painters decided to have in the picture the moon, and then the painting it's four inches in diameter and a basketball right beside it, and it's going to be painted photorealistically so

that it really does look like you're standing looking at the moon. But on the painting it's four inches in diameter and a basketball that's bouncing and coming towards you, and it's four inches in diameter, But your eye needs to be able to say, this is a basketball that's ten inches in diameter coming at me, and this is the moon in a great distance. How does the

painter do that? If you think about a paint by number kit where it looks like a coloring book and its line drawings, the moon, a large object will have more lines of longitude and latitude in that four inch diameter object. We might have fifty lines vertical and fifty lines horizontal. That we would then use our paint by number kit and paint it to give it that contour the basketball, we might have ten lines of longitude and latitude, so it's

contour. The number of shades that it takes to make it be a parent is going to be reduced. Okay. Second, a large object with a light shining on it, the painter is going to have a small area be reflecting the light. The number of sections on a small object. The sun, for example, is going to light up the entire basketball or a small object. If we have a dome, a space dome like the Seattle Dome, you know, the sun on that is just going to be a little

glint on top of it. Now, that's the extremes of proportion. But if something is reflecting light, the ratio of the reflecting area that's bright to the entire surface is going to be. There's more light on a small object than there isn't a large object. So we've got the number of lines of contour, we've got the total surface area that is reflecting light, and the

properties of the edges. Everything in real life is in focus, but as soon as our eyes are a camera lens looks at it, the properties of the edges change because of depth of field of the lens, the distance it

is closer and further away. So I developed a technique called focus field indexing, similar to the way that sell animation at Disney with painted glass that here's the mountains, here's the hills, here's the trees, here's the shrubs, all coming forward, and the properties of the edges are different on all of those. Right. So we've taken a picture and we analyze the edges of hundreds of edges in the picture. Some of them we may be able to

go and measure that tree. How wide does the trunk of that tree? How far away was it? Or this is an unknown distance, but we do know that this is a Washington rose. So we can put in known properties to objects that we can identify, and then take all the objects that have similar edges, and they're going to be in the same plane, the same index, the same distance away. Although this one's way over on the right hand side, and its edge index might be let's say four pixels wide.

Way over on the left hand side is a fence post, and it's four So that tree and that fence post, even though they're in totally different areas of the picture, would be index to be the same distance away. Gotcha, focus field indexing to be able to determine the distance away then object is by the properties of the edges, similar to the way that the optics in a cruise missile can look and say, oh, that's the moon. It's okay, keep going that away. Oops, there's a basketball coming towards

us. Let's move a little bit right. And those three principles the number of shades of color in the contour. If you look at this coffee cut, it's all really black, but because of the lighting, it looks like different shades of black, different shades of gray or green or blue or whatever. So paint by number, kit, it's coffee boiling. If we're gonna do a paint by number, KIT, I mean we wanted to show that

it was contoured. Whether it was a big object or a little object, it would be there's the shade of green, then the next shade of green, the next okay. So uh. That's one of the ways to be able to gather data about whether an object is large or small. It's the properties of the edges, the distribution of reflected light on the object, and the number of intersecting longitude and latitude lines in the arm makes sense. It's smirking because it's all blank on my cap be kept except of the cool Open

Minds TV beautiful Open Minds blue loads. Yeah, you can go get these coffy cups on the website. You can. People can act something for sale. You sell hats and shirts and things too. Yeah, exactly, key shirts out, no hatch yet. And then of the cool shirt like I got it? Do you like my Melissa efforts? Show? That is pretty cool? It's funny though, it's interesting all the rock connections, which is cool. See that means it's cool, dudes. Stan Friedman was able to

show that smart people get involved with UFOs. All you guys who came from the rock industry show the cool people. So it's the cool and the smart people. Yes. In the rock industry, though we were known as very high tech people, we were not and also ran in the in the industry, we were one of the better knowns and uh respected touring companies to really complex shows. Well, on the Billy Meyer case, it's interesting that Mailing

was interested in this stuff. He's pretty He's a guy for people who don't know who runs the jet propulsion laboratory. And some people don't know that a lot of these satellites that go up. It's not NASA who owns the picture. It's a GPL, the Jet Propulsion Laboratories. And that's why Richard Hopan fights with him because that Richard Hopeland's essentially got him to say, Hey, you're going to get whatever pictures I give you in whatever shape I decide to

give them to you, So deal with them. Because Hopland's accuse them of hiding picture or few people know that Michael Malan worked on the Billy Markets. Yeah, that's really interesting. The only place that's published is in the book White Years. There's a section in there that talks about Michael mail and analyzing pictures. If you author the book went and interviewed Michael Mallan, weld you really do it? And did you find any evidence of a hoax? And

Allan, why did you do it? What did he say? Well, he said he found no evidence of a hoax. He didn't say there was an extra Trust spacecraft, so he found no evidence of it being made by Billy Meyer or humans. I saw him do a talk in Denver about five or six years ago, because we have a Mars research thing at our museum in Denver, and he was saying some pretty groundbreaking things for that time.

He was before NASA wanted to really admit that there was an evidence of an atmosphere on Mars, and he was saying, oh, yeah, there had to be tropical there had to be oceans because all of the sand and everything it had to have been eroded down from vast amounts of waters, which was pretty interesting. But of course he has those arguments with Mayland. Were there

other people involved with the billy Meyer case that I know back then? You know, of course, yeah, that were shocking that people don't know about, you know, higher level well most people know of course, Lingle Stevens, Yeah, and Lee and Britt Elders and Tom Welch. Lee and Brett owned Intercept Company, which was a highly regarded private countermeasure company. And Tom Welch, whose father James Welch, was high level FBI. Oh yeah, and he was very intrigued by the case. Well, he was involved with

on a daily basis for four or five years. Tom Welch was And we went to a lot of places to have the billy Meyer case analyzed. Marcel Vogel at IBM, we went to we went to s A C Company, We went to the Anti Submarine Warfare Center, We went to TRW, We went to Sandy Laboratories, we went to and these were all places that aided

in the investigation. These were there were two ways it was done. One it was people that had an interest in the topic and were able to moonlight, were able to use, under appropriate conditions, the equipment at their facility

to analyze the pictures or the metal samples. Ah, the metal samples, regardless of all the huha about the Billy Meyer photographs, analyzing the metal samples which was done by Marcel Vogel, and I think a number of times he had Jim Hirtack jj Hrtack with him when the analysis was being done, and that is much more compelling to me. The analysis that was done by Marcel Vogel of the metal samples. Well, let's get into that. What were

the metal samples, how were they supposedly allegedly retrieved him? And what was fam They were allegedly handed to Billy Meyer by one of the extraterrestrials the box one night, and Billy gave them to the group Lee Tom britt Wendell the following day. And they were coming back to the United States they got back to the United States and one of the first things that we did they brought

them to me and I laid them out on the floor. I had a studio at the time of at Scottsville Air Park, and we took all the samples and laid them out. They were rocks, they were black sand looking, they were they were silver soder looking. None of it looked exotic. There were four stages of their materials. There was an explanation from them to Billy, to the group, to me on how they were made, what they did, How were these forest ages all about. We get to that

in a minute. We laid them all out, we inventoried them, and then we set out to decide, well, how are we going to have them tested. Well, we need to put in some controls of things that we know what they are. Hey, this looks like silver soder. Let's put in some real silver soder. This looks like black sand, Let's put in some other black sand. And we created a little kit. First kit went to doctor Walter or Weird material scientists at University of Arizona. He did

his series of tests. In fact one one package was sent to Omni Magazine. This is when we were young and foolish, and one package was sent there, one package went to MIT, and one package. After careful study I analyz, I determined that this guy, I'm Marcel Vogel, who was a scientist at IBM and was one of the founding members of the Mendala Society and the Noetics Sciences Foundation, would be a good person to go to. So we went to him and he used his advanced microscope lab to analyze the

different materials. Now, because we had put controls in sample one B and you know, nine C whatever, we knew what the numbers referred to, right, so we expected that this sample would be silver solder, this sample

would be you know, a piece of granite. But to the samples in particular were bizarre to Marcel Vogel and to all of us, because in his destructive and non destructive testing, he found that in this one particular sample that it showed traces of atomic elements one through fifty nine, half of the periodic chart, all in one substance, All in one substance. Now that that includes noble gases that don't combine with anything, and to find all of those

elements in one substance was completely startling to Marcel. The second thing when he polished it and looked at it under a scanning electron microscope, found that there were organic materials unburned nestled right up against materials that were melted, like thulium and platinum that melted twenty six hundred degrees, with little pieces of fern, organic materials, biofringent materials interlaced with high temperature metals. And what did this

material look like to the eye was a white rock. It looked like a glump of sot of melted silver, soid okay, a glump and it was sliced and then polished, and he couldn't explain it. He couldn't explain how it could be made. He couldn't make it. And he was one of the key members of the team at IBM that had developed some things like color television, phosphors, magnetic floppy disc emulsion, advanced materials for the time.

And he gave us a two hour videotape report. So we still have of course looking at look with the images through the microscope, and what he was saying, look, I can't imagine how this would be made, or where it would come from, or how it would be done, and with all the controversy that was going on in the pictures and a lot of mean spirited people what they had to say about the Myer case, uh, it was decided that the UFO community was not the place to platform the findings on a

daily or regular basis. There would be some books published and it would be released to the UFO community and the mass population at the same time. That was it. There was no obligation to the UFO community to show anything to them because there was not a sense of science peer review dignity. There wasn't. There wasn't, and I'm sorry to say to this day pretty much still

isn't and it's even worse. Well, and I know what you mean, And really I think whenever I think towards this field, it's important to think bigger than an outside of just the small UFO community, because really that's not who we're talking to anyway. We want to convince and show the conventional academics out there that there's some credible stuff then that it's worth spending their time looking at some of this. Yes, so I would understand why you would want

to do that, and I think that's a better avenue. And there's also one other thing to consider, and that is if extraterrestrials come here and they can communicate with us that if extraterrestrials didn't want there to be a cover up, there wouldn't be one, gotcha that they allow it to happen. In fact, they may encourage it to happen. And then it becomes an analysis of why do they think like that. Is it something sinister? Are they

going to cook us and eat us later? Or do they have some purpose in their remaining separate, because maybe they want to see how we're going to go with our own free will and our own destiny. Because in the meantime they behave like a covert operation. They're here, they're gone, they're there, they're not pass through walls. Kidnap people, abduction, kidnapping, it's against you can't do that. That's illegal. You go to jail for life

if you kidnap people. And extraterrestrials seem to do it it will Now is that for some positive reason that we don't really understand. Is there some some think something that we have that they're really interested in. So the analysis of the pictures and the UFO cases of the hundreds and hundred cases of analyzed pictures. It became more important for me to do it, for for me to

understand what was going on, not for me to be a conduit. Every time I had something to turn around shouted out there to the world or to the media, because there was not very much positive that was going to come

of it. People would say mean things, lies, create problems, which I had to deal with a lot over the years, well, especially people like Billy Myer, especially the experiencers or the epdic keys that they often such as Travis Walton or even some of Robbie Williams was saying this this week because the star who came out to say he believes in UFOs. They start to say, I wish I never would have opened my mouth and even gone there because people just get too crazy about it, or mean, do you have

that feeling at all? Oh, yes, of course, really well, I mean there have been things said about me by a particular group going back many many years that there's no foundation in fact at all, but because of their vocal approach. Cayl Korff, one in particular that said and wrote things about me and other UFO investigators, had no basis in fact or truth at all, whatsoever became viewed as fact by the UFO community and the general public.

Then, even though cal Korff has been summarily discredited, now no one has gone back and undone the damage that he did, and people most of what people believe about the Billy Myer case is based on things that cal Korff claims he discovered or he did or he said with people now have found out that it was all lies. He didn't have any scientific ability at all, he didn't have any team, he didn't he wasn't working at all these places

doing these things. But people say that the Billy Meyer case is not true generally because of what kl Korf said, and that the messengers of the Billy Meyer case of the last few years have been UFO merchants. I mean, they're selling stuff, CDs, public lectures, whatever, for the purpose of

making a living. And that's it. I mean, And it's okay to make a living in things in the paranormal if you're making a living distributing the truth, the facts, but distributing information just based on whatever or somebody says or thinks that moment and packaging it up and rolling it out there so that you can, like a carnival hutster collect the money. Has that would insult to injury on the Billy Meyer case and other quality cases where people throw out

the baby with the bathwater. That's what's easier to be a debunker or skeptic, it would seem, because there are a lot of people who it's too difficult to think of the implications of what some of these findings are. It's easier just to be able to bury your head in the sand, and the

media love stitch up on that. A lot of people still believe that crop circles are all made by these two old guys that after they're drinking at the pub, they're going out and making all these huge crop circles overnight and all over the world. Or you know, there's a number of other stories like that. But that's the easy way out, it would seem, so unfortunately a lot of people take the easy road. Yeah, who else will we

pick on? Well, we don't know. One of the questions. I think one of the areas maybe we should move into remaining time is into the Phoenix Heights, because of course that was a big deal and really which was great. You know, the media had you all over the place to talk about the lights and your analysis on the lights. So where were you when this happened and how did you find out about all of them? Well, it happened in Phoenix, and I live in Phoenix. And the night of

the Phoenix Light, did you see him? No? I did not. I was hosting Stephen Greer editing in my facility. I was donating time, and I had a policy pretty much of if someone asked me in the right way, I would let them use the facility for editing or analysis without charge. And tho he was editing at the time those great disclosure witness testimony DVDs that that are out right or yeah, that's what he was editing. That's what he said he was editing. Oh no, it wasn't nutty stuff,

was it. No, it wasn't that. It was just I don't want to get into it right now. But frequently I found what Stephen Queer said he was doing to be at variance of what he was really doing. And anyhow, we were in the facility and the thing, and of course the

phones all went to the switchboard that night. I didn't find out about the Phoenix Lights events until the following morning when some local news stations contacted me Channel ten and Channel three in Phoenix. For the years before the Phoenix Lights, because I'm here in town, they would frequently have me on local TV,

you know, analyzing different things that happened. So I took a look at him, you know, the following day, and then it just began to accumulate the number of press people that were coming and the number of witness reports, and how we were going to get at what was happening was to create some quote town hall meetings where we had at least half a dozen of them

with one hundred or more witnesses all at the same time. That's what's amazing that I think even people to this day, at least throughout the rest of the country, don't realize how many witnesses there were. There were possibly probably thousands, probably thousands. I know Barwood, the councilwoman, she said she talked to over a thousand peoples herself. Yes, and there was no video evidence up until the ten o'clock event, which was what we were trying to

find. We were having a town hall meetings so we could find someone anyone that had taken pictures or shot video before the ten o'clock events, but the first sightings, you know, I started about seven thirty. The Whites moved over the entire state diagonally from the Sedona area through Phoenix down to Tucson, turnaround, came back, and then left the state about ten thirty. I don't think cell phones were there even many cell phones then. Well, yeah

there were cell phones, but I guess not. They took pictures, yeah, certainly not the first picture. Yeah, right, it's funny to think about how quickly the technology has changed and advanced. But so that you didn't how did the video come about? Then? I think they had it early on, at least some video, right, Oh they did? You know? The television stations had three different sets of video the following day and brought them down and then the day after that. A woman that wanted to remain

anonymous because of her her job, doctor Lynn KEYTI. For years we referred to her as doctor X. Oh. Yeah, sure, she wanted she didn't want to be on the news. She wantedone to know. She had video and film, thirty five millimeter film. So we were analyzing a thirty five millimeter film. We couldn't tell you when we had it interesting And then she also though was great about her she had taken some month prior of a similar Yes, yes, and I put three or four of my staff people

on it of a few hours a day. We put a lot of time and attention into it. Well, we were running a service bureau at the time, Village laps as a service bureau doing image processing software for pretty large companies. In fact, we are working on some novel software that at the time a number of reporters said did not exist, that is now standard at the FBI and Department of Justice and other forensic analysis and its spectrum analysis software.

But at the time the reporters who were talking to us about it went and talked to a couple of astronomers who said, there's no such thing as spectrum analysis of videotape. It's a hoax, it's a fraud. And when three years later that software became published by I Tripoli and Siggraph and is now even on the FBI Department of Justice website as the standard standard in image analysis. No one in the UFO community that called me a why and sack of shit? Oh I mean, oh no, I have ruined the show.

It was much even stronger than that. Then no one comes forward and says, oh, we're so sorry that we dismissed everything that you were doing. Oh yes, now we see that it's a standard by the FBI and others, and you just have to let it go. And this software that was able to look at the different types of lights and determine kind of what they were at disource, well it looks at different lights. It's pretty pretty basic. I mean, for anyone that even uses Photoshop or any any image painting

program, let alone an image analysis program. You know that light is broken up into red, green, and blue. Any pixel on the screen is defined by its red, green and blue content RGP on a scale usually from zero to two fifty six of each red, green and blue. So if you analyze a light, you get its red, green and blue content,

it's RGB value as a histogram, as a color spectrum. You analyze the color spectrum in lights and can compare this white light to that white light to that white light and see if they are all matching identical, and also see if they're stable or flickering or moving or a number of different properties. It's all pretty much standard as the only really way that you can do it.

Is it precise enough to tell like an airplane from a helicopter, provided you have that airplane light already stored, and provided you have the helicopter light something compared to you. Of course, yes, every time you can say this light is exactly like this one, but it's not like this one, this one, or this one. Sure so in the Phoenix lights and some of what you looked at, you found that the lights weren't similar to any notes.

They were not flares because they were not modulating. They were not flares flicker like a candle light. To look at it as a graph, think of it as music sound and you're looking at a solo scope, and when it's quiet, the graph is way at the bottom. You have a mic, take a drum flam. You hit the drum and the graph will immediately go up and that will immediately go down, whereas a violin, you hit

the no, it'll come on in a different way. Whereas a drum coming on and going off looks like a cliff, whereas a violin looks kind of like a like a little hill going up and then going down at you. So you look at the way it comes on, the way it goes off, and the way it it sustains. So a graph of a light in this room, you put the light switch, it's dark, and the light comes on a certain way, and then the light stays on and it's constant.

Right, And the Phoenix lights unknowns were constant. And the UH flares, No, two flares are identical, maybe very close, but they're not identical. Now the images that you see out there of the Phoenix flights, the most popular ones syd who took that video, Mike Kristen Okay and and the Mike Christian video. Some people say that those were flares, but those weren't what most people had said. Were you able to find in the research?

Were there any flares that were dropped that night to your knowledge, Well, we didn't find any video of flares. There was an issue about whether those lights were in front of the Australia Mountains or behind the mountains and above it or below it, And we have conflicting analysis in that. I know I saw you do some analysis on that, right. And remember in the nineties, video frame capture boards didn't exist. There's one frame at a time. You grab one frame of time of video well, they did exist,

but they did not exist in our analysis. Equipment in the those kind of graphic cards at the time were thirty thousand dollars where now a graphics card is thirty dollars. Okay, the software and this and that were all different. So as the years went on and equipment became more available, different levels, and we analyzed it again, we would get more information, not necessarily different information, but get more information that would lead us to be able to make

a conclusion about something that we were uncertain of before. So the way the lights came on and the way the lights stayed not modulating the unknown lights and

the way they went off we're not characteristic of flares at all. The brightness there were flares from that distance, the characteristics of those flares, and we went to the manufacturer, We went to flares experts, found out what FLEs did, how bright they needed to be in order to be this bright on a video camera at seventy miles away, and the curvature of the earth, how high would they have to be in order to be seen seventy miles away

with this brightness of these characteristics, and we just couldn't find anything that indicated that they were flares optically. Second, the public information officer at Davis, mont And Air Force Base in Tucson said, yes, we had planes up, they did drop flares at the very Goldwater Range and they were on the ground at eight thirty. That conversation happened between Bill Hamilton and the public information

officer at Davis Monton. Some months later, the public information officer for the Arizona National Guard, Captain Eileen Bevins, said that the Maryland National Guard was here and had dropped flares at ten o'clock, which was what was seen by everyone, and that that's what accounted for. That's a lot of time, months and months for no one to know that the Maryland National Guard had been here and dropped flares and the times didn't match. Well. Then mcgaha on

Larry King that I think he's an astronomer, right. He was saying that he believed for some reason they were eight ten yes, and which are extremely loud, think killers. What aren't they even called wars? Yes, so, and I don't know what you got that from from, especially when what was reported had no sound, yes, even in the video. Yes, Well, there was a lot of hearsaying there was a lot of rush to judgment about it. All I know is in my analysis, I found no

indication that it could be flares. I found no witnesses to the fact of it being flares. But even some of the witnesses of the eight o'clock event or earlier have talked about it being flares. So there's not a consensus of anyone that quote believes in the Phoenix lights, thinks that there are not flares, and people that don't believe in the Phoenix Lights or whatever I say that it is flares. It's a mission accomplished by someone to create a confusion.

A couple of questions on the chat regarding the Phoenix sights. Was there ever any video or pictures that were taken where you were able to make out any sort of structure. No, no video or I could make out a structure. Of course, witnesses had said a chevron tape of things, and where

the where the lights always in a configuration that supported that. We did a model of a configuration of the lights in a computer based model based on various witness reports and on the videos that we had, and then located it in different positions to be able to get that view from that angle at that position of what would look like a different object, and found consistency that it could have been just one object with lights on it, but when viewed from different

angles, would look like a different configuration of lights. And there were a number of witnesses that reported the lights quote undocking from the object, flying off at a great distance, and then others that reported seeing the lights docking back on that object. Wow. So another question is have spectrometers ever been used to analyze light and would that be effective? Welld like a not a mass spectrometer, because you can't do that with video. That's a different chemical process.

And there's devices that are spectrometers that are used in film in analyzing film this issue, this has been in the video. We get a version of that doing color spectrum analysis, and that's one of the things that we use to I give the lights an index number so that we can try to match it to the database. And yes, we have used software to do a color spectrum analysis, not a chemical spectrum analysis. You can't do that on

videotape like astronomers do with stars. And that was the basis for a lot of confusion back then that our use of that word and astronomer's use of that word is different. Yes, gotcha, Hanad. I was curious how you felt then when during this period of time five Dimington had had his press conference, yes, and came out with this guy is aid wearing the et outfit.

I felt immediately that that someone had gotten to him and said the investigation that you said you're going to do, you're not going to do it. You're going to make fun of it. Do you still believe that's the case. Well, he said in interviews in the last couple of years, including one with James Fox, that no one ever came. And his answer to him makes sense that he was trying to diffuse the situation because people were really excited about him and he was out of losses what to do. Yes,

because he wasn't able to do anything. I haven't talked to him about it. I can't look him in the eye and know what he's revealing. Now that's the rest of the story. But remember the National Guard was under his control. Eileen Bins that came forward and said it was the Maryland National Guard would have been a regular dialogue with him at that same time, and at the same time the FEDS were coming after him because they didn't like what he

was doing in states rights. The big thing that five Synington did was when the federal government ran out of money one weekend and closed the Grand Canyon of Federal Park, five Simington sent state people up to open the park, which caused a great controversy between the federal government and the state government, and to a number of people, became the real reason why the federal government went after him and claimed that he had given false reports on his financial statement. He

had never taken any money from anyone. What he was run out of office for was supposedly giving false financial information by exaggerating the net worth of some of the properties that he owned. That was it interesting because that's a gray area anyway, Yes, but he was run out of office for that. As far as you ask anyone what five Symington did, well, well, he stole money and went to jail, and that's not what happened. So there's a lot more to that story. And I don't want to try to prejudge

what he did or why he did it. All I know is that what he did made my stand even more difficult. Well, it is great, and if it's true and everything what he's claiming now, which he saw the Phoenix fights and it was a huge chevron shaped craft and he believes that it is not something that is of this world and technology beyond us. It's a brave of him to do so to come forward now if you know that is the case, so to please, Yes, genuine thing where he's making amends

for those for that period of time. Although you know, really in government, and I think people listening to the show probably understand that the people who seem to be the guys really controlling things have a lot of It's a lot more difficult than just hey, I'm the boss, this is what we're going to do. I'm the governor, I'm the president. Yes, there's a lot of people they have to please that have a strong say in what they're doing. Yes, So now that we've got ten minutes left, what do

you actually before we leave the Phoenix Lights. I did also want to mention that doctor X, who you refer to link to Tai we know her as now has now created a probably the best documentary on the Phoenix Lights with hundreds of lots of witness is on this documentary and so she's out there speaking about everything she experienced during that period of time. So, and you've been part

of that a bit. I'm in that. Yeah, So that's kind of interesting that she would hide her her who she was back then, but now she's really out and about in this subject. Well, she further investigated would have gone on that night and the rest of the phenomena. She got religion about it, essay and saw that being a messenger of what really happened was more important than protecting her career. And in fact, her husband, Frank and her kids support her work, which is great. That's great. So

what are you up to now? Agriculture have been studying for many years the effects of outside stimuli on plants, seeds and plants, and I've been developing technologies for making plants grow faster, more nutrition, larger. Have you heard about how the seeds and crap circles will often in the genuine anomalous ones will grow quicker? Yes? Do you do that electromagnetic pulsing? Have you looked into that? I've read about it. I've been after Peter Sorenson for years

to send me a bag of seeds. Yeah, I know. Frankburg of BLT has done a lot of investigation into that is that bacon, lettuce and tomato research groups. Oh yeah, I don't know. Yeah, that's the one. Nancy's part of it. Okay, great, well, forgive me for calling it. You have to look at well that's what everybody calls it.

Yes, yeah, and we've discovered that scientifically there is precedent for it in that the Hope, the Dogon tribe, the Allayed tribe in Australia and Plaines Indians have been using certain sounds and instruments for thousands of years to stimulate plant growth. In fact, the Dogon tribe and Ethiopia grows huge fruits and vegetables and terrible soil and has a planting ceremony with some really bizarre sounds and

instruments. And we've been analyzing those frequencies and wave shapes and the modulation patterns and sounds of birds and bugs and bees and thunder and all the combination of sounds and ground vibrations that will increase for those of you interested lycopene and proline content, increase the mitochondria rate of the dentosigine triphosphate, and there will be

a test later. So you write down these words interesting. That's that someone in the chat was saying earlier there's going to be a quid, So what is that. What are one of the items that you've seen that has the biggest effect, well, the sound waves specifically, and it's a pattern we can get the seed germination in two days on things that might take ten to

fifteen days. And the guy that wrote the book many years ago in seventies, Christopher Bird wrote The Secret Life of Plants, spent a lot of time with me in the eighties at my ranch at the Flying Heart Ranch in Arizona, looking at my techniques and networking for me to introduce me to others that might use it. So it's our I created some gadgets sounds many years ago

that have been marketed as Sonic Bloom by Dan Carlson Sonic Bloom Company. And I have a new generation of sounds that I've been experimenting with on large scale thousand acres at the time in Indonesia and in Nebraska. We find sometimes a twentyfold two thousand percent increase and things like all like lettuce and radishes and cantalopes.

We've experimented with golden seal echinaesia and with corn, potatoes and flowers, and so there might be something to the mythology that talking to your plants. Actually there is. In fact, the MythBusters did a show, show number fourteen. Really yeah, they built six greenhouses and had silence man talking acoustic

music, symphony music, blah blah blah, and it grew bigger. It couldn't us the myth in In fact, there's ten pages devoted to us in their well to the process in their new book called Don't Try This at Home. And there's been stories about us on CNN and growing grapes in Italy, and it's just it's a process of deciding what's going to be public domain that we're going to give away, and patenting the devices and working with organic food

growers. And we've been talking seriously with the Red Cross about emergency food growing kits, and we've been going to FEMA some disaster preparedness training seminars about creating fast grow food packages for Katrina type situations and backyard growing. So if people wanted to read more about that, where would they find informistion? To email me about it, because it's a very precise process. We don't have a website about it, but my email is the last four letters of my name,

Jim Bellatoso tso at Cox dot net, Cox dot net. And I have lots of white papers, and I have lots of diagrams and how to things. Because we're waiting for the patents, which we applied for a few years ago. There are certain rules about you know, run silent, run deep while you're waiting for the patents. But in the meantime, I'm not really patent driven. I would bounce it off of a satellite and give it to the poor people of the world. That's my decision, I guess.

My last question is the UFO question. Yes, since you've been involved with this for so long and so much in the media, have you seen a change in the way media treats the subject. Yes, media is more open minded, UFO community is more mean spirited. Interesting. Yes, there's kind of been a plot somehow that way, right, So yeah, it is really interesting. I mean, a lot of investigators, a lot of chat

there's a lot of people are really mean spirited. They're not open minded, They're closed minded and wanting to crush the entire position that extraterrestrials might be coming here. And then when open minded media used the net or other media outlets to find experts, those experts now give them negative information when they're open minded to report whatever is told to them. But I find the general public in the media is more intelligent than a large faction of the UFO research community has

become mean spirited. Well that's an interesting perspective, and I guess, you know, looking at it, certainly I can see why he didn't have that perspective. But open minds will save the day exactly. You know, we're a great hope for this field. M h. Well, thank you so

much for being on the show. It was a lot of fun, a lot of great information, and I think a lot of people will need to be introduced to some of these old cases, especially like the Billy Meyer case and some of the evidence, because, like you said, there's a lot of million spirit in people out there who do a lot of talking, but they don't really present the evidence, which is the most important aspect as to figuring out whether or not something's real. Yes, so next week is Christmas

Eve, so we're not going to have the show next week. We're gonna have to wait a couple of weeks. Everybody have a great Christmas out there, and then a couple of weeks we'll have another excellent guest. Hopefully it'll be someone close enough where I could get into the studio, but not all UFO reachers live researchers live in Phoenix. Unfortunately, we don't have the budget to buy people in on every show yet. Before we sign off, can

I just say one thing about secret of Santa Claus. One thing I have discovered of Santa Claus is really one of the free wise men still alive today. You check out that major scene, you get that interesting look at the guy with the purple hat on with the funny hat, Santa Claus. Now, have you verified a photo of the main interesting to be real? No, I have not. It's just a feeling that I have that if Santa

Claus really exists, he's got some special power. Yeah, he's got to be mad and alive this long and it's that guy standing here in the main Testine and he still brings presents to people that are good. Well, now I'm gonna have to take something mean. I'm skeptical about this, while saying I think, okay, okay, go ahead and ding them open mind and we can be mean about Santa I would want to ty it. Yeah, all right, Well, Santa Claus, if you're out there, I was

just kidding. And you know, I don't know what a UFO is. What I want for Christmas some sort of cool sports model beamship like the Billy Meyer Pladiums drive. All right, thanks everybody, We will talk to you in a couple of weeks. Buses b buses, boo