Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I have with me Jason Ghostbuster McClellan. That's fat Albert. I didn't say Jason fat Albert McClellan. No, you didn't, but that's what was in my mind. It is still pretty cool. I liked it, so and uh, well we'll just talk. I talk at say Ghostbusters because Maureen went out to visit you in Boise and I don't know if you noticed in spacing out, uh last week, I said Boise. I
didn't notice that, but good job, dude. Yeah you think because you taught me. That's how the locals say it, so that's how I said it. I didn't see any I never I don't read the comments often in YouTube and for people out there, I don't look at the comments much for two reasons. One, I'm too busy. I mean, I can't be out there interacting because I'm writing stories and everything. I'd rather get you guys more news and go interact on on you know, social media or whatever.
Two, uh, you know, a lot of times it gives me a lot of heartache. And of course we talked with Lee about this because he's always ranty about comments and stories and everything when he comes on, So you know, because there's a lot of jerk off trallers out there just trying to push buttons and stuff like that. But thank you to all those who do make kind and intelligent comments, because there are many of you, and we certainly very much appreciate that. But how I got up on that tangent,
Nobody commented to tell you congratulations. You pronounced bose right right right. But speaking of Bois, Maureen went out to visit you this weekend and you guys went ghost hunting, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about that. Sure, it was a special ghost hunt because it happened to be on Friday the thirteenth, so it was extra spooky. And it's at a place that's supposed to be haunted anyway. It's the old old State Penitentiary here in
Boise, Idaho. Lots of people died during their stay there, various suicides and shankings and then executions at the old gallows, both inside and outside. They had both side and outside gallows, so lots of people died. There are lots of interesting stories. So went with this group for an interesting ghost
hunt on Friday the thirteenth, and all hond some interesting stuff happened. Yeah, ghost hunts can be kind of boring, but yeah, no, there were interesting things here and there with doors visibly being seen opening and closing, big heavy steel doors like opening and slamming shut off. Yeah, explain that that's cool. Okay. So we were in a one of the cell blocks with our little group, and this pair of women were looking out a window
across the courtyard over toward Maximum Security and this heavy metal door. They observed it open by itself and then slammed shut and everybody heard this, and that's when they told us what they observed. So the people leading our group took off from our cell block and went over to investigate. They went inside. First, they radioed to their head people to find out make sure there wasn't
any groups over in that building at the time. There wasn't, so they went over to check out this room, and when they went in, they heard footsteps for themselves, like strong footsteps. They went around the entire building.
There was nobody in there. So when they came back out, they thought, well, maybe the wind is blowing this door closed, but they felt it huge steel door, and the wind wasn't really blowing that much, but they pushed the door all the way open and left it there and watched it for a while, didn't move at all, so they started walking away. They left the door open. They started walking away, so they were
not facing the door at this time. But everybody in our group staring out the window was watching this door as they walked away, and the door just really hard did this huge slam and slam shut behind him. It was pretty awesome to watch. Wow. Crazy. Yeah, so all of you got to see that door slam shut behind him. Yeah, it was fun. There were some other things, interesting rumbles, and some possible EVPs and some spikes on the EMF meter. All in all, it was a very entertaining
night. Cool. That'll be cool if you get some EVPs, and I know we focus on UFOs, but if you get some EVPs, we'll play them on the show. That's right, because we don't really know much about EVPs. They could be extraterrestrial communications, so why not good be Yeah, good point, very good point. All right, So thank you for the Ghostbuster report, Jason. A little bit about our guests. I told you all we would have the twin brothers related to the Aligash case. I hope
you all enjoyed last week's interview with Jim Wiener. Now, the interviews start off kind of abruptly because you know, they were Skype interviews taken for video, and we're going to edit together interviews with with Jim Waiter Jack Wiener. Those are the two twin brothers and Chuck Foltz, who was speaking at the UFO Congress about the Aligash incident. And we're going to put a video eventually online on YouTube together going over the end today because it's such a cool case
and so important. But we had Jim Wiener who usually joined Chuck Folts doing talks on lectures on the incident. But Jim also has back problems and health issues that he talked about, you know, in the show, which is so coincidental and so interesting that that you know, found him getting his way to John Mack and all of these UFO researchers. But that also now is starting to hamper his ability to travel and go to conferences, so he couldn't
make it to the Congress. But his twin brother, Jack has had health issues for a long time, and he also he's really I think he said he only went to maybe one UFO conference because his health issues don't allow him to travel. So luckily we were able to get him on video and also
do this audio interview. So I want to share with you the audio interview today, and it's essentially talking about the same top or subjects and incident for the most part, not completely as Jim his brother, however, from his perspective, and these guys are cool. I hope you found that with Jim. If you know Chuck or we're at the guil for Congress, you know that of him. They're just cool, down to earth people. So it's
so fun to listen to them. They're Boston guys, so they got this Boston accent, but they're just straightforward, regular guys, and so I think hearing it from their mouth is interesting. And the difference is in perspective. For the most part, they remember the incident similarly, but just like any group of people witnessing something, they remember different aspects of different things. And not only that, as you heard with Jim last week, their artwork changed.
They were all artists and they're completely changed after this incident. So we'll hear from Jack's himself and how his artwork changed and how it changed his life. He also shares some really interesting at least one interesting incident that happened afterwards that he and Chuck experienced, which is really weird. So some really cool stuff. I think these interviews to me are terribly interesting, and I hope
you find them interesting as well. For me, they were so easy to sit down and listen to for an hour each and you know, time flies by, You're like wow, just because it's such interesting stuff and they tell the story so well. So we'll be listening to Jack in just a minute.
Here his side of the story with the Ali Gash abductions. And just to catch you up, just in case this is your first podcast that you've listened to with us or you didn't get a listen to last week, the al abductions took place in nineteen seventy sixth incidentally the year after the Travis Walton
abduction experiences. But they were these four guys who and decided to go take this kayak trip in Maine in an area called the Allegash, and they had seen a UFO one night soon a night after I think maybe it was a couple of nights after they saw this thing up close and personal and had a harrowing experience with it, ended up having some missing time later on due to
nightmares. They got some regression done and some they all had very similar things that they remembered independently, but as you'll hear with Jack, they remember different stuff. So really cool. So you hear more about that in a minute. But before we do that, as usual, Jason and I like to share the UFO news of the week, and there's some really cool news came that happened this last week, and so we'll let Jason start off. Which
story do you want to talk about? But I'm going to talk about something that you know is a mini mini trend here. And that's the way the news works. You know, if you watch mainstream news, sometimes there's a big story that comes out on a certain topic, and all of a sudden, it seems like there are a lots of stories about that same topic, and you think it, why, why is this happening? With plane crashes
and things? For a wow, more planes are crashing now. The reality is there are always that number of plane crashes, but that's been what's been making headlines lately. So they kind of focus on that topic. And that's what we're seeing right now, I think with a lot of UFOs being captured on newscasts, and we see this coming in trends. It comes and goes. But that's another trend right now. UFO is caught during live newscasts and
it's a pretty silly summer or hoaxes for whatever reason. But there's one, Alejandro, and I want to hear your opinion on this, but there was one last week. It was caught on camera during an Oklahoma City newscast. Now, they were playing a video in the background from one of their skycams, and there's just this kind of bright dot that glides through the sky very quickly, but it moves all the way across the frame and really interesting,
it doesn't deviate it all. It almost looks like the flight path of this thing looks like you would expect an airplane on a time lapse camera coming in for landing at an airport. But this is not a time lapse video. The way this thing looks on the camera is very strange. The news station
did they saw it. They didn't see it at the time that the live broadcast was happening, but they did post later the video on their website, a thirteen second video, and you see this thing very clearly kind of moving through the sky. Now all on Hunter. What they did was, after they published this video, they went and spoke to people at a local college, and these experts whoever they spoke to at this college very quickly wrote it
off as being a like a p sized mediaite or space debris. And I'm not an expert, and I'm not going to claim to be, but we see a lot of these videos with things going through the sky, and a lot of videos of mediaites and space junk, and that's not what this looks like. You know those you see, you know, fiery tales. You see debris burning off of this thing. And as we see this going down,
you know, there's no apparent impact. And some can argue that you even see it kind of slow down and change trajectory when it gets closer to the ground. But I think this is an interesting video. It's potentially there's
a potential that it could simply be a bug. But the thing that makes me think that it probably not a bug is it seems to maintain its illumination throughout the entire course of its flight, it doesn't change in brightness at all, and then it has a really interesting behavior when it gets close to the ground. It doesn't look like an impacts or anything. So I like this video all hunter. It's fun. Yeah, I like it too. I think it's really interesting and I have not you know, personally, I don't
feel like I know what it is for certain. I didn't know about them talking to the college. So that's really interesting, and I agree with you. I kind of was thinking it could possibly be, you know, a meteorite or something, or possibly a bug, but there's problems with both of those theories. Like you said, I mean, if you look at the video, it's coming in at a very low trajectory and it doesn't of course, we look at meteorite videos all the time, and it doesn't look like
that at all. I mean, it doesn't seem to have a tail. It's kind of a streak, but it seems that's more related to it moving fast across the screen. Like you said, it's not a time lapse, and surprisingly, you know, Mark d' antonio, Moufon's photo analyst experts, said he thinks it's a time lapse because he thinks there are frame drops, I suggested, and I haven't followed up to see what his comment was on
this. At it, the camera could be low frames per second, which could be making it look like it's always possible and that, I mean, that's what a lot of these videos can put together. But we have other things for reference. In this video. You see exacting lots. That's why it's not time laps at the appropriate speed. So it is not time laps in my opinion exactly. The cars are moving at typical speed, and you know video cams that the news goes to for traffic are real time. They're
not time laps. You know, they'll do time labs for in and outs, you know, for for to look cool, so it looks really neat, But this isn't this. The cars are moving in regular speed, so if anything, it's it's very few frames per second, which those cameras do sometimes to save memory. Multiple items in the video to look at it to see that. I mean, you see driving in the parking lot and you see cars driving on the street, and they're both smooth motion. It's not
you know, kind of blurry jittery because they're missing frames. I mean, it looks like a real time video to me, mm hmm. And with the thing that you know, seems to eliminate the likelihood of something coming from space, something that would typically come from space, you know, like a space junk or a media write. This thing appears and it's hard to tell
with the camera, but it appears to be just white. That's really the only color we see, Whereas with other things entering the atmosphere very quickly and based on their composition, they burn different colors. Usually see you know, bright orange fireballs or things burning green or other colors because of their elements.
This is just a white light moving through the sky. Yeah. I also saw in the forum, you know, very quickly the director of investigations for move On he felt, Steve Hudgens that it was a bug, and which is a possibility. And even in the story we draw the similarity between it and the drone footage, which most likely was a bug you know, from last week. But the problem with that is, like you said, it
maintained its luminosity throughout the video. And we've seen bug videos and usually they fade, they're in the spotlight for a minute as and while they're in the spotlight, they look like a bright white object as they zoom across, but usually once they get out of the spotlight, you know, they fade. Now, his argument is that this this area is well lit. There's lights all over the place, and this thing is probably getting lit from those things.
I guess it's a possibility, but it just doesn't all. It doesn't look like it. It looks very different work to be that size. Yeah, it would need to be fairly close to the camera. Yeah, and you know bugs, they usually zip, you know, that's why we see the things that people think are rods and other you know, right, erratic flight behavior. This thing is just a very slow, straight movement across the sky, not like a tip of bug flight path. Yeah, it doesn't.
It doesn't look like the bug videos. That's why I like this video to me is a truly unknown Although the problem with when it gets close to the ground, I think we can't tell because they go they change cameras,
and when they do it, they fade. It's a dissolve from the city to the people, and so you get a lot of weird looking things because then you get some of the white objects from the next screen coming in, and so it can look weird when it's not, so it's really hard to tell there if if I think if it really does something different at the end because of that dissolve. But yeah, I think it's a great video.
I'm excited about this when I think it's really cool, and I think it's really cool that they posted it and said, hey, did we catch UFO on camera? So yeah, I don't think it's as easily dismissable as some of the other videos we've seen on news things lately. Yeah, that's right. I do think this one is worthy of a second look if people haven't looked at it more than once. And I do think it's worthy of getting other expert opinions, you know, beyond the people at the local university or
local college they spoke with. Because again I'm not claiming to be an expert, but you and I have seen many videos of media writes and other space junk, and this is completely different. So yeah, it looks different than anything else we've seen cool stuff. Of course, there's a big story some of you may be aware Obama talking with Jimmy Kimmel about UFOs, But before we get to that, I want to ask about one of the stories you wrote real quick because I think this is kind of a big deal and we'll
try to cover this, I guess fairly quickly. But the possibility of sea life on and Keledus Enceladus, Yep, yeah, what they find. So this is something that they've been looking at for many years now. There's been evidence that there, you know, these geyser plumes shooting off of Saturn's moon Enceladus, and it's got this icy crust like a lot of moons do.
But they saw water vapor being spewed out by these geysers, and what teams were able to do is collect some of this stuff and analyze what these geysers were actually spewing. Well, so they used the cosmic dust analyzer aboard the Cassini spacecraft and they found out that the spray contains ice crystals and fine silica
dust. So scientists did a bunch of experiments and found out that the only way that this particular mixture could be created was through hydrotherbal events basically at the bottom of the ocean, or that's what they compared it to here on Earth. They found those same conditions only in these deep hydrotherbal events at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean and down there they find all sorts of weird, creepy looking life that thrives without any sunlight, you know, super far from the
surface. So they're saying that's most likely what exists on this moon, making it extremely likely that there is a host of life there because the water in the sea that exists on this moon would be warm enough to sustain life. Cool. Huh, that's really wild. The warm water on this moon. That that's pretty exciting, I think it. Yeah, it's really exciting. And there are because now more moons in our solar system that have these subsurface
oceans, so I think that's rapidly becoming the norm. And again with astrobiologists in their search for life, they always look for life as we know it, and what is life as we know it? Need? Well? Water, you find water, you're gonna find life. And it's funny and these
stories like this story. You know, we had talked about how there's more and more evidence of life out there there and even from mainstream science, and we talk about how that keeps escalating, and we get like this story, which is something neither of us I think could have predicted even a couple of months ago, when we talked about this, uh, and so it's even coming from areas which which we never would have thought of. That's right.
And as we've said before, I think it's just kind of spiraling, spiraling out of control from here is just going to keep coming at at a more accelerated pace. All of this news because again, all of these tools out there doing their investigations of certain planets, and you know, all the grand hopes that NASA has in other countries to get to these different bodies to better explore these worlds. We really don't know anything about. That's all happening.
But again, private space is going crazy too. So yeah, things are looking good for my bed, Alejandro. We're finding them. We're finding them in the next two years. Looking pretty good. Look, I'm pretty good. You might be winning. So and Obama says that the government's under control of aliens. So Jimmy Kimmel and I was going to write about it, but I didn't where I read on an LA Time scene where Kimmel threatened that he was going to ask Obama about aliens like he did with Clinton, and
sure enough he did it. So he had Obama on the other day, and just like he did when he had you know, former President Clinton on, he said, the first thing I would do if I were president is to race over and ask about area fifty one in Aliens. And Obama said, that's why you're never going to be president, and he laughed, and of course Kimmel says, well, there's many reasons I'm not going to be president, but that's one of them. So so he said, you know,
is that what you did? And Obama said that the Aliens won't let it happen. They won't let you reveal all of their secrets because they strict control over us. So kim O laughed and Obama smiling and laughing, and so kim Oll told him, this is kind of funny that, you know, there's gonna be a lot of people that are going to look at your facial expressions and examine everything you say here. And Obama says, well, I can't reveal anything. And it makes it seem like he saw, you
know, Ben Hansen's review of Clinton. Ben Hansen did that watch his face and his movements, and Ben Hanson determined Clinton might be hiding something. Yeah, I think it was a little nod there to bet So. And then kim referenced that. He said, oh, really, you know, to they can't reveal everything because Clinton was here, and he said he did go look into it and there was nothing to it. And Obama said, well, that's what we're instructed to say. So it was a really funny moment.
You know, I don't know why I feel a bit apologetic saying this, because there's a lot of people that can so excited about stuff like this, but I have the feeling, you know, being an Obama I'll admit it. I'm an Obama fan myself, and I think he has this great sense of humor and he really cracks me up. He's hilarious. This made me laugh because I think it just fits with his sense of humor. He's just joking with Kimmel. He's making kim O laugh. It was a really
funny moment. But I don't believe and I wrote in the story a bunch of evidence of you know, not only other people presidents joking about UFOs, but Obama joking about UFOs because he's done it before. But Obama seems to have absolutely no interest in UFOs and aliens except for it to make some jokes about him. And I think this was just jokes. But what do you think that seems about? Right? You know, it's fitting with his character,
Like you pointed out, he's done it before. Yeah, and he's never really demonstrated any interest at all on the subject other than using it for jokes. Yeah. It is late night TV, and you know people like to say that, you know, there's there's truth and every bit of truth in every lie. So many people are reading a lot into these comments.
Is some secretive admitting the truth but I don't think so. Yeah, because of his lack of interest in the subject, or apparent lack of interest, there's no reason for then the secret people with all of the secret information to even bother giving him any of that information not going to look for it, so they're not going to fill him in. Yeah, whatever, I mean, it was a late night talk show. You can take what you want from it. I don't think he was being serious at all, but that's
just me. It'd be cool if he was, but then again, not cool because who wants to know that we're actually controlled by alien Yeah, it's kind of scary. So people aliens are nice, Yeah, and if they're maybe they're controlling us to do nice things where they're not controlling us to save our planet. I mean, we're tearing the place apart. So yeah, so really, but it was fun to look at. Of course, when Jason and I write our stories, we try to be journalistic and unbiased and
just share the information with you. And certainly we appreciate everybody has their own opinion and we absolutely respect that and that people have varying opinions. But you should read our story because I do share a lot of information. Some more information about Obama's other comments. You can also see President Clinton's comments. You can also see, you know, a similar situation that's debated where Ronald Reagan was maybe joking about you ets. It seems like he was. He was
joking with Steven Spielberg. Spielberg says he was joking, but some UFO researchers believe he wasn't. You could read about that. So read about all this and then make up your decision for yourself, and of course watch the videos
because the comments without the videos can really be taken out of context. The other thing which I think is fun is you know all this talk about Area fifty one, and again it's just kind of mind blowing to think that we had, we were able to spend a little bit of time with Bob Lazar who started all the Area fifty one stuff. It's just interesting that this one guy, in his claims, has created such a big fervor about Area fifty one and everything, and here we go we have the president. Not the
first time the president's talked about Area fifty one in Aliens. It's such a normal topic of conversation now and a normal topic and movies and television, and it always has been. That's the funny thing, Like, yeah, ever since Bob are it's common knowledge. But fortunately last year, last year, it all came out, Alejandro, all the secrets the last year, Yes that Area fifty one exists, because oh right, you didn't know, right, Yeah, we were kept in the dark. Everybody knew, and it's
so funny. Yeah, it's really funny. So and up until last year when the you know, the Area fifty one is finally you know, the name being included in the documents. There are a lot of people who didn't believe it existed, just because if Bob Bzar and his attaching the et stuff with it, they thought it was all made up. But now they know it was real. And I think a lot of people still think they still don't know, yeah, you know, unless they follow the news or were
actually paying attention when I was making headlines. Many people still think that area fifty one is just a myth. Yeah, true. But anyways, go check that out. Some people you know asked, and we've got links all over the place to where you could get the dvd, the full dvd in
that story. I have a small clip of the Bob Blazar talk so you can see that, but you'll definitely, I think, want to check that out George and Napp and his presentation prior to Bob Bazaar, and then watch Bob Blizar because it's pretty interesting stuff there and once in a lifetime kind of thing of him doing a Q and A so exciting stuff. That's the news. Anything else you wanted to mention their big Jay, No, sir,
that's it for me. All right. Well, thank you as usual for joining us and sharing us your ghost hunt info and we look forward to hearing if there are any other results. All right, Well, you're very skinny guy, so but so it's ironic to call you fat, but thank you very much, Fat Jason, my pleasure. All right, So, let's go ahead and hear Jack Wiener on his side of the story of the Alligash
abductions. So I guess to start off, we'll go all the way to the night of when it all happened, and we'll start with when you first saw the object over the lake, what your impressions were, What did you what did you see? Well, the first thing that we saw was this the bright The object itself was rising out of the forest, and it was about two hundred maybe two hundred and fifty yards away, And as soon as
as soon as I saw it, I knew it was something strange. It. For one thing, it didn't make any sound at all, nothing, not a buzz, not a hum, absolutely soundless. And it was large. I mean this, I would I would estimate that it was probably I remember thinking that it was big in diameter as a tractor trailer truck is long whatever that is, sixty seventy feet something like that. It wasn't small, it was fairly large, and I remember thinking, well, how could something
like that not make any sound? So we watched it. The four of us were watching it, and it was rising up out of the forest very slowly, until the whole thing was in view, and then it just stopped and hovered above the trees, and it still wasn't making any sound, and it was definitely not an airplane, but we couldn't figure out what it was. At first, we thought maybe it was a helicopter because it was hovering, but it didn't make any sound, and it didn't have the kind of
lights that a helicopter has. I mean, we've all seen helicopters at night. We know what they look like and sound like. This wasn't anything like that. So then we thought, well, maybe it's a balloon. You know, somebody's fooling around with a balloon, a rather big balloon, but it's possible. So we watched it for a few more minutes and we noticed that it didn't move at all. It was just stationary in that place. So we said, well, it can't be a balloon because balloons kind of
float around a little bit. They can't just be stuck in a place, even if they're tied down. A window blow it around. So we discounted the balloon and so we had no balloon, no helicopter, no airplane. We couldn't figure out what it was. But and that's when we said well, maybe it's swamp gas. That's what we thought it was swamp gas, because here we were in a swamp, but the thing itself wasn't in the swamp. It was over the tree, the trees away from the swamp.
So but we said, well it's it's probably swamp gas. So we watched it for a few more minutes and then Charlie Folts said, well, you know, maybe it's a UFO. And we were like, wow, you know, it does kind of look like that thing we saw the other night from mud Brook camp site, and so we said, oh, yeah, maybe it's a UFO. So Charlie said, well, I'll signal it with his flashlight. He picked up a flashlight and signaled an SOS. I think he said it was. I didn't know what it was until afterwards because I
don't know Morse code, but Charlie does. And as soon as he did that, Alejandro, I mean, the second he blinked that light at it, it just started moving towards us, quietly, completely silent, but it was definitely seemed to be responding to that signal. So the four of us are sitting in the canoe and we said, oh, you know, we got a response from this thing, Now what do we do? So we kind of spent a few seconds basically saying, well, let's just sit here
and wait and see what happens. Just sit tight. So it was coming right towards the edge of the lake, and when it got over the water, we noticed that it was it had this huge reflection in the water, which one would expect, right, So we said, oh, you know, yeah, you know, this thing is definitely really there because it's reflecting in the water. So at that point it was maybe not even fifty yards away from a Salajandro, not even and it was definitely coming down in altitude.
It was headed right for us. So all of a sudden, this beam came out of it, which was very very strange because it wasn't a light. You know, like light travels at what eight hundred and eight hundred thousand miles of a second, and so when you turn on a light, it's instantaneous. This thing wasn't like that at all, Alejandro. It was like this cone, like a cone of light that came out of it, but it it like lowered. You could see the bottom of this cone,
and it just kind of lowered itself down to the water. It was weird, and once we saw that, it was like, uh oh, this is not normal. This thing is deaf, not a familiar thing because light doesn't do that. So at that point we said, okay, let's go to shore, because obviously we're dealing with something here that we don't want to be out in the middle of a swamp trying to deal with it because if
we fall into the water, we're probably drowned. It was full of submerged branches and tree stumps, that kind of thing, you know, So we didn't want to wind up into water, and the canoe was overloaded with four guys in our fishing gear, so it wasn't like, you know, we could really kind of tear out of there and stuff. So we decided, okay, maybe we should go back to shore, and if this thing keeps chasing us down, at least we're on solid ground when it gets to us.
So we started. We said, okay, We turned the canoe back towards our camp and I could plainly see the campfire was still burning really brightly because before we went out fishing, we had built this huge fire, which we've come under fire for building such a huge fire in a public campground and then leaving it to go fishing. But you know whatever, we could see
the campfire across the lake plainly. It was gigantic. So we started paddling towards the campsite, and as we were going heading towards shore, I kept looking over my shoulder to see where this thing was. And it was really weird, Alejandro, like, this thing was maybe twenty five thirty yards behind us, with this beam of light coming across the water right towards us. And I turned around and I saw that. I did a couple of paddles with my hand out the side of the canoe. I looked back again,
and this time it was like a jump in a second. It was like all of a sudden, it was right there behind us. It seemed to have just gotten there in a flash. And I could see that the beam of light was I mean, it was gonna get us. There was no outrunning this thing. And in my mind I said to myself, Yeah, we're not gonna make it. We're not gonna make it the shore. This thing is right there. The next thing I remembered was that the canoe was
completely surrounded in this kind of tube er. It wasn't like a tube, but it was like a hollow column of this light that was coming out of this thing. But it was different than that, Alejandro. It wasn't just light like a flashlight. It had this weird quality to it that was it's hard to describe, but it was very, very strange. It was definitely affecting the space around our canoe. And the last thing I remembered was looking
up straight up and this thing was right above us. I mean, it was this huge, huge orangish yellow ball of bright, bright light and this like bluish beam cone or something around us. And then all of a sudden we were on the shore. The next thing I remember was we got to the campsite, but we were I'll tell you something, Alejandro. When we were paddling towards the canoe, everything seemed, you know, like you would think, you know, we were excited, we were adrenaline going and stuff.
But when we got to the shore, we were all like half asleep and we just stood there staring at this thing, which at that point was hovering over the water, and it was sitting on this kind of weird beam. Can you see that. That's exactly what it looked like. It was hovering over the water, and there was this bluish beam underneath it like that, and it just hung there, completely silent. You can imagine, Alohana, this thing's the size of a truck and it's right there, completely silent.
And I remember standing on the beach just staring at this thing, and I was thinking, you know, wow, this is I don't know what to think, except I couldn't take my eyes off it. I wanted to see. I kept thinking, I gotta see this thing so I can remember what it looks like. But every time I looked at it directly, it was like somebody grabbed me by my stomach and tried to lift me up by my stomach and it was like, oh boy, you know, I don't like that. So I would look away, but then I would think I
have to look at this thing. I have to see it, and so I'd look at it again and it just hung there like that. And that was I don't even remember what the other guys were doing at that time. It was as if, you know, I was alone or something. And it just hung there for several minutes, at least, three or four minutes at least, and then the beam of light that was underneath. It just kind of rose up into it the same way it came out. It just
kind of like an elevator or something up into it. And then it started moving away slowly back across the lake, again not making a sound, nothing, And when it got towards the other shore of the lake, it started rising up into the air. And it was weird because it looked like like it like it would blink out, like it was there, and all of a sudden there was nothing, and it was like, WHOA, what was
that? And then it would reappear, but further up in a higher elevation, so it seemed to be making these weird jumps up into the sky. And oh, the other detail that I almost forgot was while it was doing that, that beam that was coming down from it was now pointing up at an angle, and it seemed to be following that like it would shoot this beam out and then all of a sudden it would just disappear but reappear higher. And it did that two or three times until it was way way it
was really high, and then it just shot into the stars. No sound, no va portrayal, no sonic boom, nothing, But I'll tell you Alejandro that thing was so fast. It was like that fast it went from where we were watching it to the stars and was gone, and the four of us were just left there standing there in shock, basically. And it was weird because you would think that four artists would be up all night discussing this, you know, drawing pictures of it, whatever, but we didn't
do that at all. I think we were in shock because all we did was walk back silently to the picnic table that was at the campsite and we sat down and I recalled just saying, boy, I feel really tired. I got to go to sleep. And Jim was sitting next to me and he said the same thing. He was like, man, I am exhausted. But we didn't really talk about the thing. It was weird. You think that would be obviously the main topic of discussion. We were just, oh, man, I'm really tired. I got to go to sleep.
Well. Charlie wandered over to where the campfire was and he was poking at it with a stick and he went, hey, guys, the fire's out. Should we build another fire? And we were like, nah, the heck with it, going to sleep anyway, And we didn't even think not one of us sat back and said, holy mackerel, how'd the fire go out so fast? I mean, we just followed it three minutes ago. We were out in the canoe. There's the thing, there's the fire. It's huge. It only took us. It didn't take us more than five
or ten minutes. It seemed to get back to shore. But none of us connected, you know, well, what happened to the big fire we just saw five minutes ago. It didn't make sense, but we didn't think about it until the next day. Actually, we talked about that, but that was another weird thing. And the four of us were just spent. I mean, it was like we didn't stay up and discuss it. It nothing. We just like, in fact, I fell asleep on the on the uh, leaning on the top of the table the picnic. I didn't
even make it to my sleeping bag. I just like put my head down and woke up. The next morning, it was like, what the heck? And then the next morning we didn't even talk about it. Really, we didn't say anything. We just said, oh, okay, uh, it's time to leave. I don't even remember much of it, and we all got in the canoe and paddled away in the canoe, and then I don't know how long afterwards, we found ourselves hung up on some branches at the on the shore of the lake. And it was that kind of like
woke us up. We were like, wait a second, you know, how do we get here? What's going on? What are we doing in the canoe? And where's our stuff? And so we're like, well, okay, we must have left the canoe back at the other campsite. But none of us discussed, well, why would we do that. You know, it was like, oh, okay, well, I guess we'll have to go back and get the stuff. So yeah, yeah, right,
we just kind of took off from the campsite. You know, when I look back at the time, we weren't even thinking about anything really obviously, when I look back at it, we were in shocked, deep shot or something. I don't know. I mean, that's the only way I can describe it. But once we came back to our senses, that's when we
started. That's when I think. So. In fact, it was at that moment when we were hung up in the bushes in the canoe where I think Jim said, hey, do you guys remember seeing that thing last night, we were like, oh, yeah, right, that thing that you know, yeah, I remember that. And that's then we started talking about it, like, wow, that was a UFO or something, wasn't it, you know, And and so that was when we really started to remember
the thing. But we didn't remember any abduction or anything. We just remembered being chased across the lake by this thing and then it went away, you know, it was there for a few minutes, hovering, then it went away. We didn't think we were abducted at all, but none of us, for some reason, we blocked out the whole fire thing. We didn't even it was like, you know, it was so obvious, but we didn't even discuss it. So later then you began having nightmares, you and
your brother. Yeah, so about when did that happen and what do you remember? Well, that happened about the end of the nineteen eighties. It was about eighty seven, I think eighty six or eighty seven. I started having these horrible nightmares and they were really really intense, you know, like most people have nightmares or something. They wake up they go, oh, wow, that was an intense nightmare, you know, But then you go on with your day, don't even remember it after you know, a couple
hours at work. But this dream was like, wow, you know, this is really heavy. It was like just totally freaking me out. And I told Mary about it, but she was the only one I would discuss it with at the time because I thought it was just bad dreams. But I kept, yeah, Mary's my wife. And the problem was is that they kept recurring over and over again, and it was the same in tense dream of these non human entities doing things to me, and I could see
their faces and stuff, and it was just totally freaking me out. So, you know, I was dealing with it. I was going to work and stuff like that, and I just figured, oh, boy, you know, I don't know what this is all about. And then I was talking to Jim and he was he told me he was having problems with his epilepsy and I was asking him, you know, how he was doing and stuff, because we're real close, and he said, well, you know, I'm not doing good because I can't sleep. And so I was like,
well, you know, I mean does epilepsy do that? And he said, well, I don't know, but I've been having these horrible nightmares, and I was like, really, what kind of nightmares? And he was describing the exact same thing thing that I was having nightmayers about. And so in the Jim even was was so freaked out by these nightmayers that he was locking pad locking his room at night to keep them out of his room because he thought these dreams were more than dreams. And so that's how freaked
out Jim was. He was actually pad locking his room at night. Of course didn't stop him. Well, the dreams that we were both having, it turned out, were lying on our backs and these non human entities hovering around with the bright lights behind them and putting their faces like right in your right in my face, like and you know, like this far away and I could, you know, just looking at these black, void, voidless
eyes or something. And it was just terrifying, totally terrifying. And in my dreams and Jim's both are dreams, we were seeing these non human entities hovering over each other, you know, like I was watching him hovering over Jim, he was watching him hovering over me, and it was just too bizarre, you know. Jim and I were like, Jesus, you know what the heck is this all about? And uh, we didn't even think.
I didn't even think about the Alligash. I didn't think there was any connection because in my mind I didn't remember being abducted or anything on the Alley Gash, although there was some you know, missing time obviously, but I wasn't thinking that, you know, this is alien stuff. And and then Jim called me up one time and said, hey, have you ever heard of a guy named Streiber? And I said no, no, I never have. Why And he said, well, somebody just gave me a book
about this guy's Striiber, who wrote about alien abductions. And he said, you know it really rings a bell jack it really, you know, I think there's something to this and it might be related to the Alley Gash. So I was like, well, you know that's neither here nor there. I hadn't read the book, so I was like, well, I don't know, I don't know about that, and and that was pretty much it. You know, we didn't really go out of our I didn't go out
of my way to talk to an investigator or anything like that. I just kind of dealt with it. And then Jim called one day and said, hey, I ran into this guy named Ray Fowler, who is a UFO investigator, and I met him at at a lecture he was giving and I told him the story of the allegash, and he seems really interested in investigating that. But you're going to have to, you know, reveal your soul
in the whole nine yards, so you know, think it over. And so I discussed it with my wife Mary, and we said, well, you know, this is obviously bothering me a lot, so I want to get to the bottom of it. I want to see if it really has anything to do with the alligash. And so we agreed to do the investigation with Ray Fowler. And so he sent us these forms. You know, it was an official move on form where you could report a UFO sighting or
encounter or whatever. And we filled those out with several pages, a lot of detailed descriptions, stuff like that, you know. And about two weeks later, I got a phone call from Ray Fower saying that he read my account on the report form and he thought it was an interesting case and he wanted to investigate it further if it was okay with me. And I said, well, yeah, I think it's okay. I really want to get
to the bottom of this. And you know, I mean, obviously we saw the thing that wasn't even in question, but what happened between that beam coming to the canoe and getting to shore was, oh, there was no explanation. There was a blank space, and these nightmares. I was hoping that maybe they would go away. So that's when Ray started his official investigation and decided that he would use or try deep hypnosis and what's that called relaxation,
Yes, regression hypnosis and deep relaxation. And so we agreed to do that and he did us one by one. I believe he did Jim first, and then he did me, and then he did Charlie Foltz, and then he did Chuck Rack last. And in the end it wound up that I think he did me three times. I had to go back two more times for to finish up some loose ends, and he did the other guys. I think he did Jim once, Charlie once, and he did Chuck
Rack twice. But it was amazing, I'll tell you, Alejandro. You know these investigators, as you well know, and being one, they take a lot of guff from people you know, and they're you know, they want people to believe that these investigators are a little wacky or they're unprofessional, or you know. But Ray wasn't like that at all, and neither was Tony. They were two of the most level headed, professional people I've ever
run into. There's no way that they were joking around or anything. I mean, these guys were serious, serious stuff, and so I think that really helped, because having confidence in the person who's performing the hypnosis session and having confidence in Ray Fowler as being a normal, great guy allows you to open up because you trust them. I mean I trusted these guys. I still do. In fact, I would trust Ray Fowler with my life.
I told him that one time. He called me up and asked if I could send them copies of some of the artwork that we did for him for this class he was teaching. And I said, Ray, I'll just send the originals to you and you can send them back to me when you're done. And he said, well, jeez, Jack, I don't expect you to send your original art work. I mean, what if something happens to it. And I said, Ray, I would trust you with my life.
My artwork is nothing. Don't worry about it. I'll send it to you, you know, use it for your classes when you're done back. But that's true. I mean Ray Fowler and Tony to me. My impression was that I could trust him with my life, and so oh. I remembered a lot in the regression. I remembered that when the beam hit the canoe and I was looking up at it, that's when they got us somehow. That light thing was some type of transport beam or I don't know what
you'd call it. But the next thing I remembered was under hypnosis, was lying on my back, only being able to move my eyes. I was like paralyzed, but I could move my eyes, and I recall looking towards my left and just out of the periphal periphery of my vision, I could tell that the other three guys were in this room with me, but they were like immobile. They were just sitting on this like bench or something. It was something that came out of this wall or something, and that's all
I could see. But I knew they were there, and I was thinking, you know, there's something really wrong here, and why aren't those guys helping me? What is with these guys? They're just sitting there doing nothing, and I'm over here paralyzed what is going on? And I'm trying to figure out the space I was in, but it was impossible. It was so bright. It was this bright, bright space that I couldn't even see the walls. It was like a fog, but it wasn't fog. It
was from these bright, bright lights. And then the next thing I noticed were like these kind of hazy silhouette kind of things coming out of this haze towards me. And there were three of them. There was one on each side and one at my feet. And when they got close to me, then I could see what was going on and they weren't human. They were obviously inhuman somethings and they were just standing there looking at me, and I was freaking out. I mean, I was wishing I could get up and
run, but I couldn't move. So I knew that once I saw them. The next thing was in like they're gonna cut me like a trout. I don't know who these guys are what they are, but I don't like it, and I don't trust them, and they're gonna gut me like a trout. I'm done, And so you can imagine that kind of fear, you know. I mean, I'm fearing for my life here and these three inhuman things they're standing there looking at me, and then one of the one
on my left side takes me by my wrist. And they had these really weird hands that had only four digits, and their hands had like a like a crease down the middle in the back so that when they can have like their fingers, you know, like that or like that, and then this thing would like move and they could make their fingers do this, and it seemed I remember recalling how dexterous they were and looking at these four digit hands, if that's what you want to call them, and I was thinking,
oh, my gosh, you know, that's amazing. How can they be so dexterous without a thumb? So excuse me, So I recalled that part of it. I was really focused on their hands because obviously I was worried about what they were going to do with them. And the other thing that I noticed that I was really focused on was their heads and their eyes especially. They had these amazing huge kind of black black eyes or something. They
weren't eyes like ours. They were I don't know, like a lens, you know, Alejandro, When I think about it, I think they were wearing something, some kind of protective something, you know, because it didn't look like flesh or organic stuff. It looked, you know, like glass or plastic or something. But they were huge, and there was no nose and no mouth, and they had this like pointy kind of chin. And my impression was that there was this little slit down here at the bottom,
but it didn't look like a mouth or anything. It was just tiny. So I don't know what that was all about, but that was one of the things I noticed. And they had no ears and no hair. They were kind of like this pale, whitish. I wouldn't call them gray, but they weren't, you know, they didn't have blood or something. They weren't, you know, like we are. And the other thing I remembered was watching their elbows, like this part when they would move their arms in
their hands, and I thought, for the things you think of. I don't know why, but I remember thinking, Okay, okay, you know, I don't know what's going on with these guys, but if they're wearing a suit or something, it's going to have creases when they move. Maybe you know like ours do when we move, And so for some reason, I focused on that part of their arms and I kept looking at it, waiting for wrinkles or something to happen, but there weren't any. And I
remember thinking, well, this just doesn't make sense. I mean, they're either wearing something or they're not. How could they? You know? It was weird. It was very difficult to really understand what the heck I was looking at. And the other thing is is I never saw their feet. I never saw their feet for some reason. If I did, I don't remember what their feet were like or how many they But ha ha tue,
uh huh, that's right, that's right. We promised Ray that because he said before we went into the hypnotic regressions, he said, look, I don't want to waste my time because it's it's expensive and it's time consuming. And if you guys are going to talk to each other after you know the hip, it's not gonna, it's not gonna. It's useless to do that
why bother. So you have to promise me and agree not to discuss your sessions until I've done all of you guys, and I get you all together at the end, and then we discuss what each other said and we said, Okay, I mean we understand that, except uh, I wasn't really
that astounded. I wasn't that astounded. I mean, it was all pretty much the same, you know, except uh, you know, people focus on different things, you know, and uh, but it was it wasn't like, oh, really, you know, because we were all there. We knew what happened. We just didn't know that part of it. But it didn't surprise us because it just you know, it was definitely uh answering some questions, especially about the missing time. So I mean at first,
I mean I have letters I've written. I wrote to Ray afterwards, saying, you know, Jesus Ray, you know, I can't believe this. It's it's hard for me to believe. If I hadn't been there myself in the canoe and someone told me the story, I'd find it hard to believe. But I I was there, I know it happened, but I don't know what to think about it yet. You know, this is this is stuff comes out of crazy people, not normal people. And his reaction was,
Jack, I totally understand. It's hard to accept these things, but you have to because you're going to go on with the rest of your life, you've got to deal with it. But he said, don't. Don't what's the word obsess, which he said, if you start obsessing on this stuff, it'll make it go crazy. And so I tried not to do that. But you can't not obsess on it. I found. It's something
that you know, it's on my mind twenty four to seven. But what I decided was that instead of having it tear me down and you know, ruin my psyche and stuff, I decided to deal with it creatively. And so I tried to do that. And one of the things that really helps was to meet other people that had a similar experience and talk to them, and that really helped finding out that in fact, at the time, I thought we were the only ones, you know, who were abducted by aliens
or something. I had no idea there were other people out there like that. Except for one thing. I remember. Back in the nineteen sixties, a book came out about that couple in New Hampshire, Benny and Barney Hill, right, And I remember seeing that book laying around somewhere, and I picked it up and started reading the introduction and I never got past that.
I remember thinking, well, this is horseshit or something. I don't know, not all about the abduct the aliens abducting people and stuff, and so I never read it until after the hypnotic regression and stuff. And I was working in a little shop up in Mount Snow where I was printing T shirts for the tourists, and Chuck Rat came in the shop one day. I hadn't seen him in a long time, since since the regressions and or wait
a second, was that before? I think it was after he came in with a copy of Striber's book and said, hey, this is this is Have you read this? And I was like, no, I haven't read it. And it was kind of weird to find out that there are other people like us. That was a real shock. One of the things Chuck describes is when he spent the night at your house and he had a strange experience and then he told you about it, and you said you had a
similar experience, So could you explain that? Yeah, Well, you know, Charlie Faults is a real good friend of ours. He's like a brother, and he comes up every now and then spends time. He helped Mary and I build our house when we were building it originally. And he comes up not so much now because he doesn't drive much because of his heart and stuff, But back then he was a frequent visitor. He would come up
and help Mary and I do certain things. And one of the times he was up was in I think it was an early winter because it was real cold. I remember we had a real, real heavy frost. And I woke up one morning and I said, Mary, there's something wrong with my feet. There's something wrong with him. And she was like what, And I showed her and my feet looked like they just the bottoms, just the
bottoms of my feet. All the skin was like burned or not crispy burned, but like frozen, and it was all chafy and you know, coming off and stuff. And I said to Mary, you all, this doesn't look like athleteses feet or anything. It's not in my toes or this is weird. I don't know what this is. And so we came down for breakfast side and mentioned it. You know, we just forgot about it, basically, and Charlie came down for breakfast that morning, and when he got
to the table, he was obviously not himself. I mean, he seemed like he was in some kind of a funk, like his mind was somewhere else. And Mary and I both noticed it immediately. He said, Charlie, what the heck's wrong with you today? Would you have a bad night? And he said, you know, I had the most terrifying dream last night. And we were like, oh, really, what was it?
And he told us about this dream that because he was sleeping downstairs on a mattress, and he said, I had this dream that there was this bright light outside your door and that there were aliens or something came into the house and I went right through the door and was out in the snow. And I was like, really, see that's really intense, Charlie, Uh, what do you think? And he goes, I don't know, but check out my feet. And he showed us his feet and they were just like
mine. They were all chafed and it looked like they were frozen or something like the skin had been obviously been traumatized, but they were just like my feet. And we were like, wait a second, you know. So we went outside and we were like, are there footprints out here? Something? I don't remember if we saw any or not, but it was very very strange, and it was obvious that it seemed more like a dream,
I mean, more more real than a dream. And so we discussed that for a while and we decided that you know, they come back every now and then. That's what Ray told us because after his investigation, I said, Ray, you know, what do I do with this? You know, I mean, I don't know what to do with this stuff now it's the worms are out of the can. And he said, well, just try and go on with your life and live your life, you know, try not to dwell on it. But like I said before, that's possible,
impossible. I think they've been back several times. In fact, I know they have. And Ray said, you know, you guys, I don't want to scare you, and I hate to tell you this, but I gotta be truthful. But she always was with us. He said, you know they're going to come back because it seems to us and after this study that you guys have been labeled or something. You're tagged, and just
like we tag wolves and dolphins and whatever. He said, you're tagged and for some reason, they're going to follow you throughout your life and he said, don't be surprised if they come back every now and then to check up on you, because that's what our research shows happens. And so he said, you know, I hate to leave that with you, but those are the facts, and I believe they have been back and it's been a real, amazing, amazing journey. Let me tell you, Alejandro, I'll tell
you something. I don't usually tell people this, but I got to tell you this. The last time I was taken by whatever these things are, they're not you, they're not from here. They showed me an image of our galaxy, the whole galaxy, and it was a barred galaxy. You know what a barred galaxy is, right, Yeah, okay, it was
a barred galaxy. And they showed me this section in this one arm of the galaxy where they said they illuminated this part, and they said, there are civilizations here, advanced, highly advanced civilizations on these story in the star systems, and they're pretty close to us. They're in the Orion Spur, they're not that far from us. And they showed them to me, and I remember looking at this thinking, well, that's not our galaxy. We don't have a barred galaxy. We've got one with a big ball in the
middle, you know. So I don't understand this. But beside that point, they told me, well, this is going to shock you, but I got to tell you. They told me that those civilizations represent advanced civilizations that get their energy from unconditional love. There, I've said it. That's what they told me. And I didn't understand what they meant. But this thing then that was communicating to me reached out and touched to me, and
I felt it. I mean it was like, you know, the love you have for your wife or your mother or whatever, brothers, except amplified kajillions of times. It was as if everything in the universe that was capable of feeling love had focused it to me so that I could feel it and know what they were talking about. And yeah, I'm you know, I'm not a lovey dovey person, a landro, you know, and and I'm certainly not capable of practicing unconditional love. I mean, everybody has baggage.
But I felt it and it was real, and it said after it did that, it told me that I was ready, said you're ready, and I said, I don't get it. I don't know what you're talking about? What am I ready for? And it answered, when the time comes, you'll know. And then they brought me back and I was back in my house after that, and I woke up that morning, and my wife can attest I was like shocked. In fact, when I woke up, I could still feel that uncombat overwhelming energy that came from the uncon It made
me cry. I woke up and I cried because I thought, my god, you know, I how could something that profound exist? But it did and I felt it. And ever since then, I've had a different uh outlook on what's happening. I don't know why they told me this. I don't know why, but you know, there's a lot of unanswered questions about this stuff, Alejandro. And someday I'll, you know, I'll I'll know when the time comes, I'll know, you know. But who knows?
Or maybe they just mean a moment of unconditional love that you felt for your you know, in your life. Who knows n well? You know, Alejandro, I think a little bit helps more than none, you know, And whoever we have unconditional love towards is a help. And uh, you know, I try and keep that attitude for everyone that I meet and have to deal with every day and in my life, and and I try to do that. There's a couple of people out there that you know there,
yeah, that my unloving behavior shows about. But it was it was a remarkable, uh revelation in a way, Alejandra, I'll tell you it was. It changed me. And and the thing is is, I know, I know, at least I you know, I think I know that we're not the only ones. They showed me where in our galaxy these civilizations were.
And then oh, here's the clincher. It was like years, like seven years or almost ten years later, I picked up a copy of Astronomy magazine because I was into, you know, telescopes and stuff like that, just reading about them, and this issue. In fact, I still have it here somewhere. Had an article about the new information about our galaxy that they've been able to assemble with all the new probes and telescopes, radio tele you know, all that stuff. It's a barred galaxy. It turns out
our galaxy is a barred galaxy. It looked exactly like the thing they showed me exactly, And then I was like, holy mackerel. You know, I thought that was all boloney because I thought, you know, the barred galaxy was wrong, so therefore everything else was wrong. But it wasn't it. Really. They showed me a picture of our barred galaxy before we even knew it was one, So you know, stuff like that. You know, it's hard to assimilate stuff like that, but I think I'm doing a
pretty good job. One more thing I wanted to talk to you about. All of you were artists, and it seemed your art changed, and even in your case, especially skills it seemed you acquired. Could you talk about that. Yeah, yeah, it's another weird thing about this exposure to whatever that was. Before we went to the Allygash, I was in art school and my major was painting, and I was a very traditional painter. Landscapes is what I was into. Landscapes and still lives, you know, setting
things up, painting pictures, that kind of stuff. It was very traditional, and immediately, in fact, after the Outgash, I never painted again. I never used paint Immediately after I came back, I became obsessed with mathematics and geometry and trigonometry and four dimensional physics and all this weird stuff. I don't know where it was coming from, Alejandro, but I was obsessed with it. And I started making these constructions out of paper and string and
tax and it was three dimensional math. It was all three dimensional mathematics. And I was folding paper. I was drawing these mathematical patterns that were based on five, which is the number one point six, one eight, blah blah blah blah blah. And I didn't I didn't understand why I I was. It was a compulsion. It was weird, and I never painted again.
Never. I was doing silk screening at the time and I still kept that up, but all my artwork changed to this mathematical kind of geogeometry, really bizarre, like four dimensional physics and stuff that I was trying to make my art from. And it was really weird. Alhadra, I almost went
crazy because I was making these things constantly. I mean, my whole life became obsessed with this mathematics and and not only just the math, but everything you every year of Neomoto Musashi or of Japan, Yeah, okay, well,
I became obsessed with the geometry of his sword style. He had a two sword style and it was all based on the geometry of the human bodies ability and limits of movement, and like that was another thing I became obsessed with was how Neomodum Musashi could figure out the geometry and mathematics of his moves and stuff. It was crazy. It's totally crazy. Oh yeah, Oh yeah, it absolutely did. Because one of the things it changed was my
ability to communicate with people. For some reason, I got into teaching. I wanted to teach, and I was teaching people how to do silk screens and poster art and design using silk screens. And I became really involved in that, and that was an extension from my time at the Graphic Workshop in Boston while I was in school. But I became here's another weird thing.
I suddenly became mechanically adept. Before I couldn't change a spark plug in a car, and then all of a sudden, it was like, oh, I can fix that, and I could do this stuff, and it goes on today. People my neighbors bring me stuff that's broken, like a broken air conditioner or something like that, and I fix it. I've never I don't know where this comes from. I'll tell you. Alejandro it's just like I'm getting known as you know, Jack, to fix it, man,
you can fix anything. I don't know where that came from, but it was immediately after that experience where I seem to develop these interests that I never had before. In fact, mathematics. I hated math. I flunked every math course I ever had in my life, and suddenly I was obsessed with it. In fact, I took a course of advanced Mathematics at mass College of Art and ACE the class. That's the first time I ever got an
A in math in my life. And I don't know where, you know, it was just it just was pouring out of me and it remains today. I still do very mathematical geometrical art work, and you know, I want to find out what's going on, but I think I'm closer to the answer. And I'll tell you something else too, is it's people like you that are actually helpful because it allows me to think that, Okay, I can tell people this. It's okay to think about it. I'm not nuts.
It's okay to think about it. It's okay to try and investigate and get to the bottom of it. And it allows me to contact other people like yourself and maybe learn something that I don't know yet, like what am When Am I going to be ready? You know, I don't. I don't think I am yet. That's the hard part is all of this is so enigmatic that it's almost as if we're just not meant to know, We're meant to experience. And maybe we know on some subconscious level that we'll never
understand consciously. But and maybe that's what they're referring to. But it's difficult because as the years go on and I do this and I interview people, interact with people, or you read books, people in the past who have been given similar messages have passed a way without ever knowing yeah or no change. Really, I look at the world around us now and I think,
man, we're way off from having unconditional love on this planet. Yeah, that's why Ray Faller Roy I have a great respect for him and everything that he told you, that you've told me, he told you he's a very wise person. I think he's exactly correct, and everything that he told you, Ray has been he's been unbelievably helpful, very very helpful and understanding. All Right, Thank you, very very much to Jack Wiener really neat guy.
I love these Wiener brothers and Chuck Folts too, really really cool guys. So we'll have some more information, as I said up, we'll have
some videos and things like that. Also, if you want to see Chuck Foltz's presentation where he goes through all of this and more, Chuck Folts actually gets a lot more in depth than these last two interviews because he starts from the beginning to the end, so you'll get to hear more details about their trip out there at the Aligash If you watch the presentation by Chuck Foltz at the IUFO C the International UFO Congress, and you can get those at Openminds
dot tv the store if you click the store link you'll find those, so yeah, really good stuff. Also, you could get all of the lectures at the store there and all the news that Jason and I talked about at Openminds dot Tv. So a great case. I really want to keep reminding people and getting information out about the Aligash case because I don't want it to be forgotten. And I think it's just a really important case that everybody should
know about. And these guys are so accessible that they're still here and they're still around, unlike some of the other great cases out there like Betty and Barney Hill, where they have passed away. So I want to keep this story alive and the miss Street I'm still looked into and keep it fresh in people's memories because it's important stuff. So stay tuned for more on that. Otherwise, thank you all so much for joining us. Thank you to Caleb
Haiggs for the opening and close music. Also, don't forget to watch spacing Out on our YouTube channel. We had one last week. I got mixed up on when you know Maureen was going to be on her trip to Boise and that actually happened last week, so she will be back in time to do another spacing Out this week, So we'll have another one coming out on Friday and into the near future foreseeable future, we will have those out every Friday, so check that out. Otherwise, we'll have a new Open minds
UFO Radio next week. I do want to thank link Tai who invited me to her annual celebration for the Phoenix Lights at a local movie theater. It always it is their biggest theater and it gets sold out every year. A packed house to watch her documentary on the Phoenix Lights and then she has some
of us lecture afterwards, and that's a lot of fun. One of the people she had lecture was Travis Walton, and he is doing his own event in November, which is the fortieth anniversary of his abduction experience, and in fact, on the day of the fortieth anniversary of the event, he will be taking people out to the forest to be at the spot where they saw the UFO at the time they saw the UFO. So this is going to be really cool. You could see what's available thus far at Skyfiresummit dot com.
They'll have more information out there soon, but LINKTI, Travis Walton, and myself will all be at that event, but will also all be Contact in the Desert, so all three of us will be lecturing there, so you can check out more there about that at Contact in the Desert just google it. That's going to be like in the last weekend of May, so that'll be a lot of fun. So a lot going on and coming up
where you can come hang out with us. We always love to see you and of course we always love to see you all at the Congress, So thank you all. Those of you listeners who were able to make it. I know many others of you wish you could have, and of course there'll be more in the future, so hopefully you'll be able to join us.
But it was great to see those of you. And we greatly greatly appreciate when people come up and say, hey, love the radio show because or spacing out, because we put a lot of work into getting all these stories out and getting this information out to you. We love doing it, and you know, we're overjoyed when people are actually taking advantage of our hard work and being able to read and listen and watch everything that we do. Thank you so much so you can see more of every thing at open minds dot
tv. Again, thank you for listening, and we will talk to you next week. People audio smooth touches my shimming sound. The glass t is hovering on my second