Greg Bishop, UFO Disinformation

Long Host Radio. Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro Rohat. Thank you mister Bob Dean for your wonderful intro. It is so welcoming and warm and just as as mister Dean is, thank you everybody for being here at Open Minds Radio, your

UFO news authority. We have a magnificent show. I wanted to choose the right word that was most accurate to describe today's show, and that word is magnificent. We have Greg bischopon and I'm excited to have him because he wrote a book called Project Beta about the story of Paul Benewitz, national security and

the creation of a modern UFO myth. Now he's not saying that UFOs are a total myth, but a lot of what we believe about UFOs we do because these jokesters, you know, back in the seventies and eighties working for the Air Force, we're feeding the UFO field a bunch of malarkey, and it's important for us to know the MARLARKI that they were spewing, so we look in the right direction as opposed to creating more fantastical stories around what was

already fantastical malarkey in the first place. People, we got to be a little careful here, come on show a little discernment, my friends. But great Bishop's a great guy. He's a writer, radio host. He's editor of Excluded Middle magazine. He writes for the website UFO mystic dot com. He has his own radio show, which we'll talk a little bit about.

And this book was great because you've heard me talk about Dody before, and I bring him up because he was the guy who worked for the Air Force who was putting out a lot of these stories, and a lot of these stories we believe in, you know, come from this era. So we have to remember that Dody did this. And right now when he's talking about certain stuff, you know, like Project Sirpo is something that Dody says,

Oh yeah, it's a real deal. Well, how can we trust you, my friend, mister Doty, I hear you're a great and nice guy, but how can we trust you when you have contradicted yourself so many times? We talked to Linda Moulton Howe not too long ago where she told us about an encounter she had with him as well. Anyway, Greg Bishop is on the show, and so this is going to be a great one. And he also is going to be speaking at a conference coming up called wake

Up Now Conference. It's in Albuquerque, New Mexico, March twenty nine to May first. There's a lot of speakers there, some interesting people. My buddy Claude Swanson is going to be there, I know, so there's gonna be it's gonna be a lot of fun. You could go to wake Upnow Conference dot com and I'm wanna do that right now, so I can tell you who else is gonna be there. See some of these names, some of these people I don't know. Kawani laps Writis, I know him.

He's a pretty neat guy. Nrio Hayakawa is actually the guy who puts it on. He's really into Dolce, which we're going to talk about in a minute here related to mister Doty. And then Richard Dolan, one of everybody's favorites. He's been on the show a couple of times. So it looks to be a fun conference. I love New Mexico, so check that out a couple other things. I wanted to mention the Contact in the Desert and this is an event going on June third through the fifth, being put on

by mouf on LA great group out there. Steve Morillo is my buddy who still hasn't put me on the website. He said, oh, you called me out. Well you said I didn't put you on the website. Well you still haven't, Steve, Come on, buddy. But that's gonna be a lot of fun. This is gonna be in Joshua Tree. It's gonna be kind of a camp out with UFO speakers. Like I said, Contacting the Desert dot com is a website for it. I'm very excited for this one. I know Roger Lure is going to be there, Von Smith,

Stan Romanek, and a lot of other really cool people. I hope, I hope there's no non cool people, because I'm a cool people. I like cool people. Everybody's cool in my eyes. I like everybody. You guys can tell that already. I don't know if there's anybody I don't like that's in this field. That much. Contact in the Dessert is gonna be

a lot of fun. I also want to thank Todd van Hooser. They call him mister van Hooser at the high school Desert Edge High School because he had kind of a little sci fi conference there at the high school, which was kind of neat. He invited us, We did a talk and we had a table there. He's an author. He writes these books called the Laughing Moon Chronicles. If you're into sci fi, maybe you know these books or not sci fi fantasy. They're these fantasy books and he also has some

fantasy games around them. So I'm not too familiar with this new kind of Dungeons and Dragons type of role playing game they have now, where it's all you have these models and you have these little characters and it looks kind of cool, and you set up like a little town or something, and then you roll the dice and you probably kill monsters and maybe even your opponent's there with your warriors and your magic and stuff like that looks like a lot of

fun. Anyways, I want to thank him for having us there. That was really cool and a lot of fun. And it's great that he is trying to inform the high school students and more than that, getting them off of their computers and their TV and getting them together on a weekend to actually have some face to face interaction so they can be socially competent human beings in the future. That's very important, I think very important to humanity that high

schoolers gets socialized. One of the other things that's going on that's really cool is that we've been doing this news thing on the website. We found this to be popular and helpful for people. We put up news headlines from around the world on a regular basis on our website and there's a lot going on. And then what we do is we bring this cool kid, Jason onto the Race Show to tell us all about the news. And we're lucky enough to have him right now, If Jason McClelland give us some news, buddy,

I think I will. Alejandro, thank you, sir. This is your Open Minds News brief for Monday, April eighteenth, two thousand eleven. Is that the right date, Alejandro on the eighteenth, That is correct? All right, Thank you, sir. Stop me if you've heard this one.

I'm kidding. A Russian physicist from the Institute for Nuclear Research of the Russian Academy of Sciences recently put forth a new theory stating that advanced civilizations may inhabit the interiors of supermassive black holes, being invisible from the outside and basking in the light of the central singularity and orbital photons. Basically, this guy thinks that the inside of a charge and rotating black hole is a suitable place

for planets with alien life to exist. This new theory comes after a twenty tenth theory by a professor from Indiana University that proposed Earth could actually be inside a black hole? Are we inside a black hole? Alejandro? I don't know. Sometimes it feels like it. I contur this story is especially funny, and I'm sure and ironic because what was it just last week or the week before where another scientist said there's probably no alien life out there because they

probably all got sucked up and destroyed by UFOs. That is a very good point, and I'm glad you brought that up. Isn't it funny how we go back and forth. It's all just very speculative speculation. It's really funny. People looking for more papers write Alejandro, Yeah, and who knows where the aliens are? They're probably in our nose. Like Paul Davies says, a lot of people think that. I know, I've been itching my nose a lot more lately. Tip's allergy. The season's changing. That could be

one cause. But it is interesting to think. And you know, I remember this this theory coming out last year about Earth possibly being in a black black hole. These are interesting things to think about, but you know, we really have no way of knowing. And there the movie black Hole, they had some really cool little robot buddies though, and I would like to have those robot buddies, like Wally, did you see the movie black Hole? I don't think so. It's a really old one. It's like maybe

seventies. This movie about this ship getting stuck in this black hole and it was you know, uh take it over by this It's kind of like I was a modernization of twenty thousand leagues under the sea. This crazy guy had built this ship and he had these robots that ran it, and there were these really cool little hover robots. I know, you like Johnny five, you'd like this movie. Well, I'll have to check it out. You keep giving me great movies to watch, so I'll add that one to the

list. YEP. In other news, UFO sightings seem to be getting more attention lately and more people are actively looking for UFOs, and because of this, a UFO hotline was just launched by Joseph Kapp in Brooklyn, New York. According to AOL News, Who's Cap decided to start a twenty four hour

hotline where people can discuss UFO sidings without fear of ridicule. Of course, other UFO hotlines already exist, like the one the National UFO Reporting Center has and the one Mutual UFO Network has, but it's nice to see mister Cap willing to devote his time to listening to witnesses. That is a huge commitment. Yeah, he's a busy little guy there. I know him. He's a neat guy. And I like your graphic. They're kind of a red

phone hovering in Manhattan. That's actually outside of Manhattan. That's Brooklyn, Brooklyn with a UFO kind of hanging out with it. That's pretty foun I figure a hotline, you've got to have a red telephone. Every hotline is a red telephone. Yeah, but kudos to that guy, and good luck to him. I mean, I and twenty four hours. I don't know if

he's manning it all himself. Well, I think that's what Peter Davenport does, right, He certainly does, and that takes a lot of a lot of devotion, a lot of dedication there, and especially with something that people get so passionate about like UFO sightings. I mean, when people see a UFO, they get all jazzed up and they want to tell their story and

they want somebody to listen to them. And unfortunately, more times than not, it's difficult to find people to listen to you when you have that story. To hell. That's why I think it's amazing that move On gets hundreds of reports a month, because first of all, people don't even know who they are, so how are they supposed to find you know, they are able to find move On in the first place, right and then report so

Lord can only imagine how many sightings are going to be going unreported. Well, I think it's incredible how people found places to give their reports before the Internet existed. Now we hop on the Internet, we can do a quick search and UFO report sighting and various searches and find many places to report sightings. I'm surprised that life existed on the planet without the Internet. Oh it didn't. That's just a myth. Hey, I'm starting to believe that.

Let's move on with other news. Another man has the interest of UFO believers in mind, and that is Lewis Romeo, and he plans to open a UFO motel in Baker, California. He currently owns Alien Fresh Jerky, and after seeing his store attract so many UFO believers who enjoy having a place to share stories, he decided to move forward with plans to build his motel that will be in the shape of a saucer and it will include twenty UFO themed

grooms. Romayo told AOL News, in addition to offering delicious, high quality jerky, We've been able to create a place here just like a haven for believers. That's important because for many of us it's hard to tell who to trust with these stories. Here there is trust, just as there will be at the UFO Motel. He hopes to have the UFO Motel open in two years. That sounds fun. I'd go to a UFO motel. Yeah, I hope that. I would like to earn the right to be a guest

of honor there. Kind of fun. You could have the Aljada Rojas Suite. That would be neat. Yeah. So this this jerky store apparently used to be located in Nevada, was around Area fifty one, and the guy claims that he's sort of got muscled out by people who worked at Area fifty one and other strange government entities. They come in and take pictures and leave, and it sort of create an unwelcome atmosphere for him. So he packed up and moved to Baker, California, and he's been very successful there.

He's got a huge store and so successful that he's going to build a motel. So is it a conspiracy or is it that his jerky wasn't very good? Well, judging by the pictures I've seen of his store, his jerky's probably pretty good. He's got a pretty big store, and it's sort of like a mini museum too. He's got little statues and other memorabilia there. It looks like a cool shop. So, and obviously it's all enough of

it to build a hotel office. It's great. Yeah. In other news, New Zealand, New zealand'sin a hot topic lately, and it's proven itself to be a major UFO hotspot with regular UFO sightings. A strange flaming ball of light is just one sighting among many and recent flood of sightings. Residents observed the flaming ball in the night sky above Juera. Is that how you say that, Alejandro? I don't know, you know the name where?

Those cities were difficult for me? All right, we'll go with Hawera last Tuesday, and according to Stuff, New Zealand's award winning news and information website, one resident described the object as a flamy type object with a dark shadow on top, which looked to be a pyramid shape with a round top. I don't know how pyramid has a round top, but yeah, that's what

he described it as. And after the object hovered in the sky, the witness explained it turned its flames off and it looked like it was cooling down. Strange lights in the skies above Hawera and the surrounding areas have been common in recent months. According to Stuff, the Airways Corporation responsible for monitoring New Zealand air traffic has no explanation for the UFOs and recorded nothing unusual last Tuesday night when the strange flaming ball of light was witnessed by residents. Yeah,

lots of sightings and there's it's cool that they've been printing them. And it's funny because the website is called stuff stuff dot co dot nz. But that's not like just some goofy site. That's a big news site, right, big New Zealand news site. It's just got a funny name stuff. So every time I post that next step news like from the Daily Telegraph or from CNN or these other very newsy type of names, and then you put stuff

from New Zealand. But they're better than these tabloids like out of the UK that we have a lot of stories from, like the Sun. That's right, it's good stuff. Yep, good stuff. Got another New Zealand story here. Shortly after the media New Zealand reported UFO sidings last week, a video showing a strange multicolored UFO was sent to three News in New Zealand.

The video allegedly shows a UFO above Hamilton, but three News hasn't been able to reach the videos submitter, so apparently somebody just sent a video into them. And it's a neat video to watch because this thing in the sky changes colors. It's blue and red and green. Pretty cool. And so three News tried to contact the person who submitted the video, but they haven't been able to reach him for comment. It'd be cool to get some more information

from him. Yeah, and the movement was weird. It's not like it didn't seem like one single object changing colors. It was kind of like different parts of one object or changing colors, or maybe it was spinning. It was tough to tell. Yeah, it was a great video. And that happened sometimes even when I was with Moufon with investigation. Sometimes people would submit

a siding and then they don't want to be contacted. They're either afraid of ridicule or sometimes they're like they think the government's going to come after them or something. Yeah, that's the sad state of affairs. But also in this video, you know, it's really boggling. It is this object in the sky and something that moves wildly and sort of out of control like this thing did with all of its flashy colors and stuff. It certainly could be some

sort of some type of toy or something. Yeah, I guess so, because toys are flashy. That's what toys are supposed to be. Flashy, and yeah it was. I mean it looked like it passed over a tree, right, it looked like it was up in the sky. So, but you never know, could have been one of those helicopter ethingies that wasn't necessarily a high priced, smooth flying helicopter ethingy. But yeah, something you kind of throw up and it wobbles around with light. Yeah, that's the

first one. That's the first time I've heard someone try to debunk a UFO story saying it's a helicoptery thingy. I've read helicoptery thingy many times. At least you didn't say it was a sea monkey like doctor and I did that one time. No, I don't even call him a doctor. No, I have no idea what that thing is. And this guy, it's really cool, and I do hope three News gets the hold of this guy and get the more details about the siding and where he was, how he captured

this thing, and if there's any more information about it. Yeah, and if you're listening, don't be afraid, you know, buddy, be strong, be bold. Absolutely would love to find out what that thing is. Great well. Legendary actress Shirley McLain appeared on Oprah Winfrey's show last week, where she discussed many topics, including UFOs. McLain is a strong believer in extraterrest real life, and on the show, she shared one UFO encounter that

took place at her new Mexico home. She explained an instance where three UFOs appeared and hovered over her hot tub for ten minutes. Now, Alejandro, you know, I enjoy spending time in my hot tub at home on an almost nightly basis, and I am always staring up at the sky because it's the perfect time to stare at the sky. And I still haven't seen anything while sitting in my hot tub. Give it time, my friend. But here, Shirley McLean says that, yeah, she had these three UFOs up

here. She has so many UFO stories. But she also claims to have seen a mother ship at one time. Yeah. Yeah, she may be a bit liberal and interpretating what a UFO is, but you know, it reminds me of the story of the Little Buddies that I talked about in South Park last week, where the guy was hanging out in his hot tub and he would see the UFO sometimes. That's right, Maybe hot tubs are a

good place to be. Yeah, I hear a nice and relaxed, perfect timing, Except you're not going to jump out of the hot tub and grab a camera. I know. That's what I think every time I'm sitting in my hot tub tun and looking at the sky and saying, if I thought something right now, how am I going to work this? Yeah? I do relax. I figure out how to flop out, run in and dry myself off so I don't destroy my camera with the water on me hm hmm. Yeah, I'll have to think think about that war and had the camera

sitting in a better place. Yeah. Well. A new trailer for the upcoming film Cowboys and Aliens debuted last week during the popular television show American Idol, showing just how confident the film's creators are that the movie will appeal to a large audience. This movie is being heavily marketed, with trailers premiering to

the largest audience as possible. A teaser trailer for Cowboys and Aliens debut during the Super Bowl earlier this year, the largest US television audience were single broadcasts. Ever, the latest trailer was shown during American Idol. One of the most watched programs currently on television, so it's interesting. Alejandro again an example of these big production companies marketing to very large audiences, which means they're spending

a lot of money. They're confident that people are going to go see it. Yeah, are you going to go see it? Ah? Probably? I love one of the one of the headlines or lines taglines to this movie I saw recently. I believe it was from a paper in the UK. I don't recall which one, but it said something like Indiana Jones and James Bond fight aliens because the two lead actors in the movie are Harrison Ford and but they left the character the other the main character Daniels. Oh it's name,

I can't remember, Daniel Craig or something like that. But yeah, funny headlines. But this movie looks great. They're really hyping it up now and it still doesn't come out until later in the summer. Well, last week we mentioned the media attention garnered by the vaults that was recently launched on

the FBI's website, which allows people to browse through select FBI files. Files that many believed to be related to the Roswell incident received lots of attention from the media early last week, while later in the week the focus seemed to shift to files about cattle mutilation. Several FBI memos discussed bizarre mutilations that took place in New Mexico, Nebraska, and Colorado. The Sun recently interviewed Nick

Pope, who worked for the Ministry of Defense, about these documents. Pope told The Sun, these documents show how serious the authorities took the matter and that they were prepared to debate theories about extraterrestrial involvement. Yeah, it was similar to the Condon Report or any of these other reports where there were some really good cases that were unsolvable, but in the end they just said, oh, it's all predators. Yeah, when obviously you read these cases,

that can't be the answer for everything. And our last story, a couple in East Texas found what appeared to be crop circles in their yard. Last week, four circles mysteriously appeared in their yard, and they told KLTV that they had a hard time believing that any person or animal could have created the circles, and apparently plants and bushes in close proximity to these circles have been affected. One BlackBerry bush in particular now has dead limbs and stopped producing berries.

And they talked about this plant and said that the just a week before this happened, this BlackBerry bush was producing all sorts of berries, then all of a sudden, no more. Yeah, that's very strange, and it's not the first time there's been effects on plants from this sort of thing. Right, Well, Allehundro, that is it's for the news. Remember to check out these stories and more at openminds dot tv, your source for UFO

related news. Your Open Minds correspondent Jason McLellan, and you've been briefed back to you, Alejandro. Thanks for the brief, Jason, you got it. A couple of quick notes before we get into our interview. We have a couple of articles that you're going to want to check out on the website. Michael Schratt did a great article on the different types of UFO shapes that

are out there. You might have seen his running series called I've talked about it before, but UFO Case Files revealed where he kind of takes UFO cases and then makes a drawing of what the UFOs look like. So now he's kind of done a general idea of what are the different types of shapes, and you can see some of his graphics in there too, so you want

to check that out. The other one, it's the granddaughter of Sheriff George Wilcox in Corona, New Mexico. He was actually a Chavez County sheriff, but his office was in Corona, New Mexico in nineteen forty seven, which is closest to the Foster ranch where the UFO material was found. Mac Brasel, who found it, brought it into Corona to show the sheriff, and

the sheriff called the Roswell Army Airfield and that's how everything got started. His granddaughter kind of talks about how she didn't know her grandfather died a couple of years before she was born, but that she, you know, in the aftermath and learning about the story and then having her own signing later on, she kind of shares what her family went through during the time, you know, how her family's kind of how they dealt with all of this, and

it's a very interesting story. We have a story on the website and then there's a video embedded because on our YouTube we also have a video that we did with her, so you're gonna have to check that out. It's a lot of fun and she seems like a really neat lady, so you'll have to. Her name is Christine Tulk. You have to check this out on the front page of our website. But without further ado, let us move on to our wonderful interview with Greg Bishop. Okay, I am happy to

have Greg Bishop with us. Greg, are you there? Yeah, I'm here. Great. Well, we just finished, or I just finished not too long ago, reading your book Project Data, which is really exciting for me because I've brought up on the show Richard Dodie and some of that type of those events that happened back then. Because I think, as you put in your book, that whole era with Benowitz, so much UFO mythology was started back then, and it's a really important period of time, and it

seems to be kind of just swept under the rug these days. Yeah, people don't want to hear about it because it's not very exciting. It doesn't make a lot of UFO people look very good, but a lot of them aren't really around anymore. Yeah. Well, you know, I think the main thing is that it doesn't have anything to do with aliens from other planets or exciting things like that, so people don't really care about it. And also it doesn't you know, why have people's dreams and fears and all that

broken up Because I guess people don't like that. I like mysteries, you know, I like recare and normal I like trying to figure out what's going on with it, And the weirder the story is, the more it excites

me. However, when there's something like well, we've you know, I found out during the course of the book that a lot of stories that were making the rounds in ufology, as you said back then and still do now, about underground bases et cetera, deals with aliens for abduction rights and all that that was started back then and people still believe that, and that came out of a disinfo operation, which means it's either partially or mostly untrue.

A lot of it. Some of it I think is totally untrue, but you know, you can never say for sure with the you know, UFO circles and rumors, et cetera. Right, So let's get into some of that and maybe we could start up I mean, the heart of the story is that this poor guy, Paul Benowett, I guess you could call him a scientist, yet he's very scientifically apt, who had his company there over

by Kirkland Air Force Base. Maybe you can, in a nutshell give us night how this all started with BENOWITTZ Well, as you said, he was trained scientifically at a master's degree in electrical physics, at least as I think he did. Yeah, I said so in his obituary, So yes he did. And he had started his own company called Thunder Scientific, which still exists. His son's run it now, or one of his sons to run it anyway. He had. This was in the late seventies, about nineteen

seventy eight. He lived right next to Kirkland Air Force Base, which is this large, large air force base next to Albuquerque. And the thing about this base is a lot of defense testing, black budget things. Different government contractors, laboratories are there. They do a lot of they work on a

lot of secret projects. It's one of the funnest areas to look at in Google Earth because when you look in all of the different areas like the Manzano Mountain or things outside of it, there's so many weird things, and of course with Google you can kind of click on them and people say, you know, their opinions of what's going on there, but laser testing and testing of nukes and all kinds of crazy stuff. Yeah, all that stuff's going

on there. I don't know if they test nuclear material. However, at the time they did store it was the largest they did have on the base, the largest storage underground storage of nuclear weapons components in the world. Yeah. I think they still do. They just moved them from the mountain to and more secret kind of underground placed in the desert. That's still on the base. Oh, I did not know that. Yeah, kind of weird. There are not as many nuclear weapons and the Cold War is not really

on anymore. There's a different kind of war going on. But at the time that was all stored in Monzano Mountain, which, like you said, if you go on Google Earth, you can see all these entrances into the mountain, like hundreds of them. It looks like, yeah, underground bunkers you can see. I don't know, I hollowed out. But in nineteen forty seven, strangely enough, the mountain was dugout and used to store these nuclear bomb components, and some people even say bombers, you know, whole

airplanes and stuff went in there. I think it had some structural problems and it's leaking and all that in the intervening years, which is why they haven't used it as much. But Benowitz lived next door to all this, and Heath was he would for some reason go out on his porch at night. I never knew why. Maybe his attention was drawn, but you know, like at one o'clock in the morning in the winter when it's like zero or below there, or at least below freezing, and he saw these lights flying

around, so he started taking video of them. I think he had some video equipment eight millimeters cameras, and he's actually a UFO. I don't know if he was a researcher but at that point, but he was certainly interested in them. He saw these strange lights flying around silently around the Curland Air Force Base. And contrary to what I think I wrote in the book,

they didn't do anything very strange. They would just lift up off the ground silently, probably from a mile or two away from his house, fly over Monzano Mountain, and then drop on them behind it. And they did this over and over again, night after night after night. So he thought that these were UFOs, like alien UFOs as the classic way that people think about

it. So he told the people at the base about it. So they they said, why don't you come in and talk to us about this, because of course they wanted to know what he knew and how he knew it. These were classified, you know, a secret test of things, and they didn't want anybody to know. Supposedly, as I found out that they were, they were probably unmannarial vehicles, but they were very unconventional ones because they were glowing, they were glued, they glowed at night, and they

were kind of orb shaped, so that's kind of strange. Anyway, this all happened right on the base, so obviously they knew what was going on, and all the other people have told me he actually saw people walking around them with flash flights and stuff before they took off, so obviously they knew what was going on. Anyway, he wanted to tell them about this.

As it turned out, the only people that were interested in it were the base security people because they wanted to know, Like I said, what he was looking at, how he's finding out what he was finding out he had also built an apparatus to listen to radio transmissions, and he told them about that. What these radio transmissions were were another secret project I think, having to do with telemetry or control of satellites or or missiles or maybe even these

things that were flying. Anyway, over the course of a few years, probably four or five years, he got more paranoid about some sort of alien invasion he thought was coming, and he told this to the Air Force, and because they wanted to keep him in their confidence, they encouraged him.

They said, oh, yeah, sure, we want to know more about this, because they just wanted to keep them on the line, one to keep them looking at stuff, and two to find out who was talking to in case he was leaking information to the Russians or the Chinese or whoever. The upshot of all this is that eventually his family had him committed to a mental institution because he had a nervous breakdown. And the classic version of the story before I got involved in it, was the government drove him nuts.

Well, they did help. He probably could have done it himself, but not in such a severe fashion because he completely trusted the government. I mean, that was his Achilles Heel. I think so yeah. I mean, he's culpable in it, but the government bears a great deal of responsibility for it, although not all of it. I was able to talk to people that were talking to him, involved with him, looking in on him, spying on him, breaking into his house, and looking at his pictures and

all that. I talked to those people and relayed that information in the book, and some of the things that he came up with and that possibly were told to him and given to him, ended up, as we were talking earlier, as part of the bedrock of a lot of conspiracy theories having to

do with UFOs ever since then. And these were spread and encouraged by people in the government who most of them who will probably will never know who they were, And then also a few UFO researchers like John Lear and I think to some extent Alexander, and then a few other people that were well Alexander was in the military, but mostly the UFO researchers that would latch onto these crazy stories and then just believe them because they said, well, it came

from a government contact who told me this secretly. I want to get the information out, so it must be true, which doesn't follow at all, but it got people very excited for a long time, and I think it's to some extent still like that. That's the story and as much of a nutshell as I could make it. No, that's a great Yeah. I think he did a great job with that, and they were feeding him then the Air Force and at the counterintelligence or whoever in his contact. A lot

of pretty zany stories. But essentially there's two theories, and I wanted to hear what your current one is asked to why they would do that? One is that to discredit him. So if let's say the Russians came along because they knew he was seeing lights getting signals, and then the Russian said, hey, you know what are you doing over there? And he would then history would be, oh, I'm monitoring these aliens and these alien signals,

so that they wouldn't listen to him. One theory being that just that and then the Russians would leave him alone, and the other theory being that they were kind of giving UFO disinformation to throw UFO people off, so we wouldn't know the UFO truth out there. Although I'm skeptical, the more I researched that it really any of that had to do with UFOs. They were more not concerned with UFOs, just making sure people didn't know about their top secret

projects. Yeah, well that's the impression. I tried to give him the book because that's the I got. There were a few reactions to the book from from different areas. One was yours, which was, Wow, this is fascinating. I think that we had to watch out for this kind of stuff, and it's it's good that we know some of their tactics now so that we can we can deal with it. And the other reaction kind of

was you got duped. All these people lied to you, which basically means I don't want to listen to what you have to say or read what you have to say. I already have my mind made up. That's that's the reaction I got from some people too. And the third one was why why wasn't I mad? Why didn't I get upset about it? And you know, my answer to that question that that concern was, it's not my job

to tell you how to feel. This is a news article. Basically, it was a big longs feature that ran for an entire book length and if I have to tell you how to feel, It's like me telling you the story of Cinder of a snow white having to tell you that that the evil, which is evil and that you should hate her. Why shouldn't tell you that exactly? I really that's one aspect that gets frustrating. I mean, to be more credible, you know, it's better to do straight reporting and

get the information out. One, why do we have to get emotional about anything? What good is that going to do us? And two? Yeah, why do you want to hear me ranting on about how upset I am about something instead of just giving you the information? Yeah? I mean if people ask me, I say, yes, I am upset about it. Yes, I think it was wrong what the government did. No, I

don't think it was completely their fault, but that doesn't excuse them. That is my personal feeling on the matter, and my personal feeling about the people involved in the story. No, Richard Doty shouldn't have said those things to Paul Benewitz and maybe should have told him what was going on, but he

was following orders, et cetera. No, Bill Moore should have should have actually told Bennewitz what was going on, and he shouldn't have made this deal with the government, although that's really complicated and I think that was probably wrong, and I don't know if i'd do the same thing. Probably not, I do not know. But it's not my job to pass judgment on these

people publicly. That's the job of you know, people that are reading and possibly although I don't think it will ever happen the justice system, which is I think people in the story are pretty much immune from that because it has to do with national security and there's things that couldn't be revealed in court, so it doesn't really matter. I mean, a couple of researchers have said

these people should be brought to justice. It's like, well, you know, that's like saying that there's a lot more important things where people should be brought to justice, Like, you know, a lot of people in the Bush administration that are never going to be prosecuted for the things, for the things they did and the people they hurt and the problems they caused. So it's way down on the list of government malfeasance. But yes, it's still

there. And know it shouldn't have happened, and I'm glad that some of the people at least told me what happened. I admitted to it, at least part of it, so that we know we could set the record vaguely straight on what happened in that period and who had happened to and what tactics they were using and what you know to separate the noise from the signal from the noise. Yeah, before we get into more of those details, I did want to comment to on the second reaction that you said people had,

which is another funny one. I find people telling you that you were lied to. And it's interesting because, you know, as a writing stories about these different UFO mythologies and trying to discover, you know, the signal from the noise like you're talking about, but just doing an honest due diligence around reporting something journalistically, a lot of these mythologies have their origins in the Benewitz information and we know that some of those stories and the information he got,

like you had said, was disinformation. So that's just the fact, and it's funny that people would then say, oh, well, you shouldn't have believed those people. Really, what gets difficult in this build who people choose to pick and choose who what they usually do is the people they choose to believe are the ones that are saying what they want to hear. Right, well, they don't want to believe the people that are saying things they don't

want to hear that make them sound like they were wrong or whatever. I try not to do that personally. I try. I mean, I'll give you an example. That's the underground base thing. When I wrote the book and for a couple of years afterwards, I thought there are no underground bases at Dalcy. That was just a big cover to get Benowitz to get his

attention away from Kurrentland. But as it turns out, I started to think after talking to a few people two or three years after the fact, a couple who have no you know, connection with Benowitz, the Air Force or anything whatsoever, told me, yes, there is actually something there. There was. That doesn't mean there were aliens there and there were boiling people in Vats and all that. It just means that I was wrong about there being no base there. Maybe there was that there is, and I'm willing to

change my mind about that. But in regards to me being lied to or disinformed or whatever, and you know, people get irritated with me for saying it, but I think Bill Moore said it best. He said, you enter into an agreement with these people that they will talk to you, and you listen, and therefore you were entered into a game. And that game is to try and get as much to the heart of the truth as you

can. And they're part of the game is to mess with you and to try and tell you if they don't want to help you as much, as much, as little as they can, and if they do want to help you as much as they can. And I think I got both sides of that sort. And the other thing is when you do play that game, you are basically, yes, involved in a game, and the game is the game is, like I said, get as much as you can and

try and determine if it's the truth. But the point of the whole thing is if you don't play the game, if you don't enter the arena to play the game, you get nothing. And so when you go go and start playing that game, you have to start trusting that your discernment, your powers of discernment about what is true and what isn't is working properly, or that you can trust it. And the other thing is one way you do

that is by double and basically cross checking what people tell you. Yeah, and percent of the stuff in the book was either available in an open source and in another way, or was told to me by somebody else outside of the outside of the people with government clearances. For instance, when somebody said, how do you know Paul Bennolitz was flown over the Archiletta Mason your Dulcie, New Mexico and shown Pops on the ground to make him think there was

an underground base there. Well, because first Richard Dotey told me, oh, well, the guy lies, he's a horrible liar. Well, then Gabe Valdez told me Gave Valdez is not in the government, He was a state highway patrol and he said, oh yeah. Benowitz was so excited about that. He said he couldn't believe that they were taking him up there and showing him this stuff like. Well, then I guess Richard Doty wasn't lying to me in that case, was he. Well I put that one in

the book because you know, and that's just one example. If I could find, if I could find at least one person outside the loop there that either had exactly the same information or basically the same information, I would figure that there was some truth to it, especially if it fit in with the rest of the story, and if it didn't, I wouldn't put it in with the exception of one thing that Bill Moore told me, and nobody's ever said anything about it, really, and that was the fact that he told

me. J. Allen Heinich, the famous UFO researcher, founder of Center for UFOs. People know who he is, had given Paul Benowitz a computer program that basically led him astray, or actually a computer a whole computer setup. Somebody had delivered it to him, and he Bill told me that Heinich

told him that he had done it. Now, I don't know, you know, apart from the fact that a lot of people suspect that Heinich was on the payroll of the Air Force after Blue Book until his death, I can't, you know, I haven't been able to find anybody else that can confirm that for me. But I thought it was so important that I did put it in the book, and also mentioned Moore was the only person that

told me that. Yeah, you know, two reasons, One it's really important if it's true, and two if somebody can read that and say, oh, yeah, I can confirm that, right tell me or confirm it somehow publicly, then that piece and be added to the puzzle. Which is why I included the one that's the one unfounded piece of information or from one person that I did include. And at least if that rumor circles, people can then research this back to an origin also, which I think is important

too. Yeah, there's a lot of things I include in my writing and in the books and all that, things that I put out publicly that are basically in there because people that know what I'm talking about will be able to confirm it for me or for themselves or whatever, hopefully to me and public right. Yeah, I just put out a feeler. I mean, that's

the That's That's another thing about the intelligence community. Their currency is information, and if you have a valuable piece of information that they don't have, that is your currency, and they will you can sell them, You can buy information off them with with your information. Not that I'm I'm you know, I'm on the very I'm the below of the bottom wrung and that in that

scenario. But every once in a while I would have a piece of information from another person, and they would give me a piece of information that they wouldn't have given to me unless they had learned something from me. And to kind of get into who some of these players are, you've mentioned Richard Doti and he worked for the Air Force Intelligence at the time, and with the

guy speaking with Benewitten, He's got other history that we'll get into. And then William Moore, who was a UFO researcher, wrote the first Roswell book, which was a big deal obviously, and then I think, like you do, he came out eventually and told about how he was not on their payroll, but how he was dealing in information. He was spreading their disinformation knowingly and working with the Air Force secretly, as well as being a UFO

researcher and having the confidence of people. Of course, people got upset when he came out and told people this, But we wouldn't know all of this information and the details about what happened if it wasn't for him coming forward. I personally am grateful that he came forward. I don't know how much disinformation he spread knowingly. Now there's a lot of people that would say, yeah,

that's all he did the whole time he was UFO researcher. But as far as I can tell, the only disinformation he spread knowingly because he was told to, was telling Paul Benowitz that this the giving him that Aquarius document, which if you've seen the book, you know what I'm talking about, just the one that's basically it's a teletype that supposedly says that the Air Forces at Bowling Air Force Base was looking at some film and stills and all that

and interested in some anomalist pictures that Benowitz had taken it at Kirtland. Obviously, the thing was designed to get Benowitz excited that the Air Force was secretly discussing things that he was doing. More was told to give it to him. He hesitated, and they told him that he was not going to be including anymore in their deal unless he gave it to Benowitz. So he gave it to Benewitz, but also warned him. At least that's what Bill told me. Whether he did or not, I do not know. I've never

caught him. I never did. I mean, I don't talk to him very much anywhere, but I never caught him lying to me or telling me anything that was false. Ever, over the course of many years. All the stuff I've been able to check out later was true basically through other people and through you know, doing research. So you know what am I to think the other thing he's like, Well, Bill Moore lies to people. If you've got friend, and I was fairly friendly with him, I would

consider him a friend. If you've got people you trust and that you like, wouldn't you be more inclined to be a little bit more straight with him than somebody that you couldn't trust or you didn't like, or both. So you know, I don't know if that's an ironclad thing saying that. You know, I was always told the truth by Bill, but I would tend to think that he was more apt to tell me what he thought he could

as truthfully as he could. Well on other UFO researchers that were working with him prior to his involvement with the Air Force seemed to have good experiences with him and not a problem with him. I mean, I think that's part of the problem. A lot of researchers really liked him and felt he was an honest person, and one of the reasons why they were disappointed with his secret affair with the Air Force. Yeah, well it's you know, who

knows how many of those people would have taken the same deal. Of course, all of them in hindsight say no, no, no way. Now that's another good question, you know, But there are some who did, and possibly I've got certain suspicions and other people have too. But the thing is that one they weren't and by his own admission, one they weren't arrogant about it. And two they haven't told anybody about it, right, So you know, that's not to take guilt off of him. But the thing

is that, you know, he made a bargain. And the other thing is that he said that you know, they'll say one thing like, well, we'll give you this if you'll give us that, and then it gets more and more and more involved, and before you know it, you can't. You can't extricate yourself easily from this bargain you've made. So he said he became problematic for him to stay in this bargain doing things that he didn't want to do occasionally, and as far as I know, the only disinformation

he spread was de Benewitz and he warned him about it. Other than that he may have spread disinformation. But I think he did it because he thought one it was exciting, important stuff, and two he hadn't found out that if the stuff was actually really real or not. Like the MJ twelve stuff, at this point he thinks it was mostly or all fake. Right first came out, him and Jamie Shanderray and Stanton Friedman were fairly certain that most of it was true, if not all of it. But in hindsight he

says, yeah, probably not. I mean he said that repeatedly because these were documents that came Now, from what I understand, the document the MJ twelve did not well at least not proven that they came directly from Richard Dody. Well, they came from Albuquerque, which is where Kirtland is. Somebay in intelligence somewhere right mailed that package from Albuquerque. This is Eisenhower briefing document,

not all the other stuff. When people think MJ twelve documents, they think of the Eisenhower briefing document, which is that what is a ten page thing that says, supposedly is a briefing document for President Eisenhower telling him about MJ twelve and the UFO problem as it was up to then. In nineteen fifty two or whatever it was. But that you know, it's not the

whole of the MJ twelve thing. There are many, many, many documents when it is brillianting more on Jamie Chanderray and that main one came from Albuquerque, was mailed from Albuquerque anonymously and arrived on Jamie Schandray's doorstep in nineteen eighty one I think it was, I can't remember now. And then to Moore's

credit, he was hesitant about the document and they were not. They were doing their research and they were not releasing the document until the Air Force was pressuring them to release it, right, And then they even gave Timothy Good the document, saying, hey, we're going to give it to someone else and let him put it out if you don't, yeah, so, and

unfortunately he and Chanderray and Stanton Friedman took the bait and released it. Obviously, if they're trying to push it like that, they've got an agenda. And if there's agenda, that makes you really question what's in the document. Yeah, but they did it anyway, I think partly because one they didn't you know, it was an ego thing, Jesus. So some guy in England's going to release it first, which is the wrong way to go about things. But I can see why they did it, even though I don't

with it. And there's also a hindsight thing too. I mean, like, you know, what if you think you're sitting on the biggest bombshell in fifty years and somebody tells you release it or or or forget it, right, you know, it was a mistake. It was a big It was a big mistake, and I'm sure Bill would admit it now that's even to be pressured like that, but that was part of the pressure they were putting

on him and people that were releasing stuff too. Yeah, And that's to create a false impression of things and to also get certain people interested in things so they could track them. Right, And now here we are with m J twelve. This is huge part of the UFO mythology and certainly for me questionable. I mean, I've certainly read Stanton Friedeman's book Magic, which talks about, you know, the evidence that he has found that perhaps at least

that something similar to this organization possibly did exist back then. But it really seems, you know, it makes it difficult to swallow the whole thing, and unfortunate that it's just a given for a lot of the public that this group existed or and or exists, when it has such origins that people don't even remember. Yeah. Well, MG twelve was strangely enough mentioned in the

Aquarius document. It was the first place anybody had ever mentioned it, and it's a special access granted only to MJ twelve to they spelled out the twelve. They put it in quotes, So I don't know what was up with

that. But after many years of talking to Bill about it and looking at the documents and seeing what the reaction to it was and seeing what actual real documentary evidence there was, I think most people that are up to up to speed on the UFO government thing, well it would agree with you that they're they're unfounded and probably false to a great degree. But however, I think that there was an MJ twelve something called MJ twelve. It probably had nothing

to do whatsoever with UFOs. It probably wasn't an aerospace thing or something to do with flight or rockets or something like that, but it was so small and so secret that it was really easy to hang all this UFO stuff on it. Because of that one memo, the Cutler Twining memo that mentions MJ twelve. It doesn't say we're going to talk about UFOs next week. Sorry, we can't hanseled. The canceled the meeting about UFOs and aliens. We're going to do it next week or some other time. All it says is

MG twelve's, you know, was canceled. We're going to meet next week. And this is an official document, but it doesn't say what MB twelve is. But what whoever made up these documents wanted everybody to believe that there was something called MG twelve having to do with the UFOs, and they had this one little piece of documentation that would stand up to scrutiny that didn't say

what MG twelve was. And that's what happened for many years. And the piece of documentation was actually planted so that more and chanderret would find it. I mean, it was actually planted in the National Archives in a place where they were pretty sure they were going to find it well. And they touted this for many years. And now Bill and many other people think I think the same thing. I you know that I've come to the same conclusion you have, and everybody else has that. Yes, it existed, now,

it had nothing to do with the UFOs. Maybe there was some sort of organization like that, but nobody's been able to determine what it is yet, right and to show how that's a classic part of disinformation by releasing a memo that had a reference, but then releasing this less credible stuff that explains it in an unrealistic way. Was a memo that was engineered by Dody for the

APROL people, and I think that's one where they dig it. Upset with More too, because he knew that this was hoaxed and remember the sighting, there's no reason to get him upset with it. The oh god, I can't remember the name of the the doc. Dody just to a bunch of UFO organizations, yeah, saying that this guy was inside the Air Force and he had seen something. He had seen the UFO land and they had taken pictures and it'd be been debriefed and there was a men in black thing.

Anyway, this came to uh Aerial Phenomenal Research Organization of which More was a member, in the late nineteen seventy or yeah, late seventies, early eighties. I think it was received in nineteen seventy nine or eighty. Anyway, he told me, and nobody's contradicted it that he went to Jim and Coral Lawrens and who ran it after they had handed it to him and said, no, this is false. I actually called them up and found out. I found the guy, and the guy says, yeah, we saw something,

but all that other stuff is fake. I mean, it didn't land. We weren't debriefed about anything. So he said, well, then you know, it's obviously a false flag from somewhere, so let's not worry about it. I don't know of some other information that says he was pushing it to other people and saying it was real. He actually told APRO to ignore it. And I wrote that in the book too, which is kind of weird that people don't read that if they do and start saying, well,

he said this was real. Actually had one researcher did say, you know, he more got this memo, got this letter and told Apro that it was real and that they should they should really look into it, and which is exactly the opposite of what I said in the book. He told him it wasn't real because he checked into it right. Part of the reason why he is recruited, at least as he says, is because he checked up

on things exactly right. And yeah, I had heard you know, you know how people just they kind of grab reasons because they really want to be upset with more. And the one I had read on that one was that he didn't share that it was not real when he knew it wasn't real, which wasn't the case according to your book. I didn't know it was wasn't real. He checked up on it. He wasn't even involved with anybody in the Air Force at that point. It was a feeler going out to see

who would take the bait and how they would react. And more was the only one that reacted by actually calling the base or calling around till he found the guy that was referenced in that supposedly had written a letter in asking him about it. Yeah, nobody else did that, so you know, I don't know, you know, they're in his cap that he actually checked it

out. Yeah, which is pretty cool, but which is a demonstration though of how you know, it was a real UFO sighting, but it was a mundane sighting that was blown up in this disinformation piece that was sent out to people. Yeah, I mean, it's just it was a test. This is one of the things that the people in the spy business do and in counterintelligence do. They mess with people to see how they will react. Yeah, for them, it's all fair game. It's it's it's war.

It was a Cold war, and it was fair game to do this to American citizens in further into finding out one what they knew, and two if anybody from outside the country was was talking to them, and you know, and a few were. There were people that were saying, I'm an innocent UFO researcher from China or Russia or wherever. And some of them weren't innocent UFO researchers. They were they were spies working for the governments of these countries

trying to find out information on defense projects through UFO researchers. It seems really logical that this would be a way to get information, at least in the heights. It would. And it's happened more than once, many many times, and I cite some of those in the book. And it happened after all the stuff with Benewitz, and it happened all the way up to the end of the Cold War, and a little bit passed it too, and I'm sure it's still going on in another form now. I wanted to talk

also more about Doulce because we've talked about it a bit. But I found that interesting because there were things in your book that I hadn't known. I've been looking into Dulce for quite some time. I lived in Colorado my whole life, and I've been out there. I've interviewed some of the locals out there, but and I used to believe there was something to it until I really looked into more of the history been out there and some of the investigations

that that were gone on. And I think I've heard some of what you might have heard about it, but I was surprised to what extent Dody was going to to really convince Benewitz that there was something there. I hadn't known about what you had mentioned earlier about them putting props on the Mason flying him over it. Yeah, they did it twice in helicopters. Dody went with him once and I can't remember the name of the guy that was running a

security for Kurrentland at the time that he went with him. Once and Benowitz was also a pilot, so he after they took him up there, he went up there with his plane and took more pictures. Unfortunately, he took pictures of things that were he said, there were things, and then after that they just pulled all the props away and put them back. I guess he did see something when he was up in the plate in the helicopter with

him, but he went back took pictures of things. And the only pictures I've ever seen are just they're just picture which was the forest up there and the mountains, and he's got little circles and diagrams showing where everything is. But if if you weren't looking the way he was looking at they it just looked like pictures of forests and and mountains and rocks. So, like I said, he was in a lot of ways, he was his own worst enemy. Yeah, but I think the feeling this could be another red herring.

I mean, I believe that in the mountains further more remote, because Dulce is not as remote as you know people think it is. That there's a town at the foot of it. There's a casino at the foot of this mesa there and as more remote in the early to mid eighties than it is now. I went there in nineteen eighty nine or nineteen ninety. It was pretty damned remote. There's I think there's there might be a few more highways out there, and like you said, yeah, there's a casino there.

Now. The population's gone up, but it's pretty remote and a lot areas around there are used for training, particularly for the all right, but

there's a lot more remote in Colorado. I mean when you get into the rough mountains, and that's kind of what a lot of the people in the area feel, is that you know some places because there's a lot of space out there that's not accessible by vehicles except only by the air, which makes a lot more sense to put something a secret base like that, especially because

I know Dolese has been around probably since the turn of the century. They've had at least a few hundred residents at the first census in the thirties. But again, all the stories I've heard and talking with people going and hiking and trying to finally supposed ducks and things like that, have never found anything. I was told by a couple of people that live out there that they would take me out and show me that. And I said, sure, I'll go, but we haven't done it yet. I don't know if I

ever will. I don't really care if there's something there or not right now, because if there is, it's just not it's not. I don't think it's active anymore. But there the people that live out there that I you know that some of them that I've known for a while now, so I can't really put it down to them messing with people from outside of the tribe. I'm talking about tribal members that actually live on the Hickorya Reservation land.

Yeah, they've said, yeah, there's some stuff there that's a little suspicious, and we can take it out and show it to you. And I was like, okay, I'd love to see it. The other part of this story is that, like I said, at first, I didn't think there was anything to the stories and it was just total disinformation. Subsequently, I met a guy completely at random, almost completely. I mean, he's involved in the ultra light community like I am, and so, but he

said, oh, yeah, you got to talk to him. He was involved with government projects in Arizona or New Mexico or something like that. At some point he might be interested, so I gave him a copy of the book. He read it, and then I met him again a few months later and he said, yeah, well, there was actually something at Dulcie.

I said, what, how do you know? He said, well, because I worked in underground facilities, and there was it was common knowledge among us that there was a facility up near there, somewhere like north of Los Alamos, really, you know. And then he said, yeah, I never went there, but we would. We would go, you know, we would go to a certain place. We'd go down in an elevator and we'd work underground all day. We'd probably we'd take a train somewhere underground.

We wouldn't know where it was because we weren't supposed, so we'd work on it. We'd come back up. And the guy did work for the Department of Defense, and yes, he did have clearances that you know, he told me he had, so either yeah, lying to me, or he has some information that there is or he said it wasn't active anymore, that there is or was something underground there. And then I do a little bit further research about activity in the area, specifically earthquakes that took place in

the nineteen sixties and seventies. There there's no earthquakes going on in that region. It's not an act of geologic region. There was a series of mid sized earthquakes at very regular intervals for quite a while, which to me indicates explosions underground. So there's a good deal of evidence to suggest that there was some sort of a base there, or may still be. I do not know. But the point of telling, you know, what's the point of

telling Benewitz that and telling them aliens are there? Why tell everybody where there's a you know, exactly where an underground base is that you want to keep secret. Yeah, that's why I feel possibly there is, because I've heard those other the story two of the noises and that they erupt, and I know others have pinpointed locations near there, but not exactly under the Mesa, which would probably make more sense. They kind of give you a red herring.

Hey, everybody climb around this mountain while we're actually under this other mountain. Tell everybody that there's something there, or you know, make a secret, open secret of it, and like you said, tell people exactly where it is. But it's in the wrong place. It's like ten miles away, right, or even three or four miles away, and everybody's busy crawling all over the mountains in the back country looking for this thing, and maybe you shove a few poles in the ground to get them excited, yeah,

which is all it takes. Yeah. But the thing is that there's another benefit of that, and the benefit is look and see who's out there looking for it and what they're saying about it, and especially now with the Internet, who's talking, what they're talking about, where they're from, and who what their identities are. It's a good way to get a lot of activity

going and to see who's interested in what they're saying, right actively. So there's a lot of reasons why you would do something like that, and it makes sense to me that that there probably is or was some sort of a base there, and hooking it up with the alien thing just made it, you know, it made most people just laugh at it, of course,

right. But the people that weren't laughing were either you know, really into the UFO thing, one or two crazy or three talking to these people because they needed to know where underground facilities were and they didn't really care about aliens. But they're making believe that they do just to so they can get information. Yeah. Scott Ramsey, the Aztec researcher who I'm sure you've probably talked with, I think you probably spoke, lectured at the same conference before.

He says that he had done some research because he was researching Dulsee. Also that he found that they were building some caves because they were going to use it as a nuclear waste dump until the camp project was canceled after some conflicts between the federal government and New Mexico state government over what waste was going to go there, so they canceled the project, so that at least there was

some tunneling going on there at some point. Oh well, maybe that's what it was, and maybe they just used it as a red herring, you know, just to mess with him and other people, and then there really was something there, but it was completely useless and and like you said, it abandoned. Yeah. I don't know that that would be interesting to find out. You know, Dulcie's a weird place. There's also there's all kinds of strange aerial phenomena sited there, which may or may not be secret testing

of something or you know, both something known and secret testing. Well, the entire San Luis Valley, which is really strange. What the hell are they doing there? So, oh yeah, well, the entire San Luis Valley has lots of strange stories like that. My family, Dulci could is

basically could be considered the very southern tip of the San Luis. But if you go up into Colorado, you're basically at the very southern edge of the San Luis Valley, right over the border from Dulci, right, Yeah, because that valley has sightings that my family has some history back that my very first UFO siding was in the valley, and then you're right, and then in the the southern tip of the valley and the mountains out there, there's

all of these big foot sightings, which is, like you said, what the heck is going on out there? It's a weird place. The whole entire valley is a really weird place. Yeah, if you, I'm sure you've read them, but people listening, they should read Chrys O'Brien's books. Yeah, various valley under the Valley, and I think there's one other after that. The specific perfictly deal with his time living there in the eighties and

nineties what he found out. I mean, he was basically a full time anomalies investigator there for over ten years, and he's found out some very strange stuff about that area and why there might be UFO sited there constantly. In addition to other things, I mean, there's also you know, phantom hitchhiker stories and Brujo Mexican witch stories and sightings of the Devil and all this. It's, you know, the high concentration of weird stuff for such a sparsely

populated area. Yeah, So a couple of the other theories out there that I wanted to get your take on Falcon. Falcon was supposedly this guy who was essentially like Doty's bot. But then niation of the operation with Benewitz. Yes, he went there's his boss in the Air Force. But he was in he was in the CIA and the CIA was running. He had brought and been brought out of return firement. This is what I was told.

He'd been in the CIA for a long time, like back through the fifties, and had been in the OSS before that, and he was stationed in East Germany or West Germany and worked with yin Ard Galen in the after World War Two. He was stationed I believe in the Middle East somewhere for a while. And he was an old, old, old hand at Soviet counter intelligence. And this was Bill Moore. Who is he the one who gave

you that information? Yeah, okay, And I've been trying to find out for years now if anybody can corroborate it, and I haven't been able to find that yet. Yeah. I've been writing an article which I'm I don't know about halfway through where because I couldn't corroborate it anywhere. So friend Ken Thomas, actually my friend Ken Thomas, who published Steam Shovel Press. I

mentioned this to me. He goes, why don't you just publish it anyway, Just publish the name of the person who you think it is and see if you know, if you can find it by now, at least get the damn name out there, so somebody come back and corroborate it somehow, somebody with more resources than you have and see what happened. So I would like to do that, And I think I would like to finish that article,

but I want to see who's who might pay for it. If not, I'll just put it on the site that I'm putting together right now that has my writings on it. There's a lot of suspicion that Doty is Falcon. Well, that's completely, one hundred percent absolutely wrong, okay, as far as I can tell. I mean, everything's an opinion. Right. Well, the reason people say he's Falcon is because one he told Linda how that. Well, since when do you trust Richard Doty's word on anything?

Right? One, you say he's a big fat liar. And then when you say he admitted to Linda Howell, and then why do you trust him in that case and not in any other case? That makes no sense. And the other one was that was brought up I think was that he had he had admitted this to the producer of UFO Cover Up Live. He had said I am Falcon this producer, and it's like, okay, so Doty

was also telling another person this. So that makes two times Doty has said something to somebody and you trust him when you say he's a big liar in all every other case, it makes no sense whatsoever. To be well, I heard a story that the real Falcon couldn't make it to that television show. Dody stood in as him. Well, the real Falcon apparently, as far as I can tell, did make it to the show, sat in

the audience at least for part of the time. But when they did the voiceover things saying us government agent talking, it was when the strawberry ice cream thing came out and embarrassed everyone. The person that, you know, one of them said Condor, which apparently was Robert Collins, that he was in shadow and his voice was altered, and the other one said government in you know, government agent or informant Falcon, and that was Dodie with his with

his voice altered, and the and the uh in silhouette. Does that make them Condor and Falcon, Well, it made him that for the for the purposes of the show, that doesn't mean that's who they were. And besides that, you know, these are designators that Bill Moore and Jamie Schanderay came

up with. They weren't any official thing. They're just they're just words names that people they came up with so that they could refer to these people in conversation on the phone, right, which was talking about like they say, they'd say, like, you know, Condor told me this, Oh they know they're talking about Robert Collins or Seagull told me this, Oh they know, well they're talking about Bruce mccabee or you know, they weren't necessarily government

agents either. Some of them were just other researchers that that had access to some of the same information. Or Owl said this, Oh, well, then they know they're talking about how put off. Yeah, that was their group of researchers and more was the one who kind of created that, which is a group called the aviary. Yeah, well, him and Jamie Chandering. But the person they referred to as Falcon, who was, you know, at the top of the thing. You know, a falcon flies higher,

it basically has dominion over other birds. I would suppose anyway, they called him Falcon because he was at the top of the heap. He was at the top of the pyramid that ran this whole thing as far as they could tell. Because you know, Dotey took orders from him and a few other people did too, and he didn't care about the UFO thing. He

didn't he didn't you know, really care at all. All he cound about was finding Russian agents, catching them and either them out of the country or fingering them so that the Russians would say, well, can we have them back so you can have our age. You know, the agent we caught of yours and had to do with the international espionage. Nothing about UFOs,

nothing about government deals with they, is anything like that. That was all in furtherance of this operation, of which Bennowitz was a tiny, tiny, tiny part. So you know, UFO people look at this and think there was a big conspiracy against the UFO community. No, it was a big conspiracy against Russian agents, and the UFO community was involved in it for about

a fraction of a percent, you know, of the whole picture. Now, Dodie, like you mentioned, he has really he changes his story a lot, and it sounds like I think in the book even that he gave you conflicting information at times, which is nothing new for him because he has all throughout the period of time he's talked to people in this community, which then makes it difficult, like you said, to believe anything that he has

to say. Yeah, but it goes back to what I said is that you play the game, and some parts of the game are easy and some parts are difficul called. And while I like Richard Doty personally, he's been nice to me. He's always been polite to me. You know, it

doesn't mean I trust everything he says, and I should anybody else. However, if he does tell you, you know, forty things, and you go check out those forty things and five of them turn out to be corroborated by other people, circumstances, released documents, open source things like news articles or whatever, yeah, well then I know that probably at least five percent of what he told me was true. He told me lots of stuff.

I mean, I think probably five percent of the stuff he told me actually made it into the book because the rest of it either wasn't important or I couldn't check it out right. And then you have the situation because I brought this up with Alexander because demonstrating an actual secret Air Force project that had to do with disinformation, and he, because of course Alexander Field, there aren't very many of these groups, and the ones that are out there he knows

about. He kind of was in burring because of his not answering directly that Doty was working on his own, kind of like some loan rogue. A few ways, he was because they give him in that in that sense Alexander was actually being sort of truthful because I talked to other people in a fos I, specifically to my friend Walter, who was in a FOSI starting about five years after Doty was out, and Doty was a legend in a fos I, and in the fact, you know, in the in that he

was an example for a lot of people what not to do. You get a lot of latitude. Apparently when you're an a FOSI agent, when you're an Air Force intelligence you are told this is your assignment or we need to look into this or take care of this, and then you go figure it out. You know, you don't have to take orders about what to do. To go and use the resources available to you, working within the laws and the constraints of what you can and can't do to complete that mission.

If that includes lying to people and covering up your identity and all that, that's fine. But apparently Dody went a little bit further than that and said things to people that were unauthorized and caused some headaches for people higher up and all that. So yeah, I mean, he was very eager to do things in his own way, to the point that he went past some of

the regulations apparently, which is why he got in trouble. Right now, we're almost out of time, and I have so much more I want to ask about, but I guess I'll just end on this and your take. Then on Doty's meeting with Linda Howe and he brings her to Kirkland Air Force Base, and so it shows her an alleged secret UFO document. Do you think Dody really had that sort of information? Do you think he had much,

if anything, on secret UFO information. I think he was handed a bunch of stuff and then he was told to gauge her reaction to it and what she might do with it, and how she would spread that information to other researchers. And she did a real good job of it, because at the time she was flattered by the attention, and she apparently repeated a lot of it. As time went on, she realized that what that game was and how that game was played, and she got a lot better about weeding

out stuff from government people. At least I think she did well. I know she feels that document was one accurate. Well, she was shown a lot of stuff, But the thing is she was only able. She wasn't able to take a picture of it or take notes or anything, so she had to remember it. But what happened was she's probably seen stuff that corroborates it in different ways subsequently, you know, years later, and figures that

that holds it up. I don't know what she knows. I haven't seen what she's seen, so I don't know if i'd feel the same way. To me, it just seems like, well, if you saw some stuff later, maybe it corroborated stuff that they were. You know, it was it was a lie held up by stuff you said you saw later. I don't know, you know. But the main, the main reason they did

that was because she was an up and coming UFO researcher. She was interested in cattle mutilations and either they wanted to get her off that and get her interested in something else, which it didn't work right, or they and or they wanted, like I said, to get to gauge her reaction to something, to a set of information and see what she did with it, and that you know, she was one, you know, vocal enough and to go get her enough that she would do something with it. Yeah, And

and she did. And that's that's why the they had some contact with her for a while till finally either they or she got tired of it and she moved on to other things. And later and I can't even think of why right now, a lot of what she had seen as what then was released and got labeled Project Aquarius, which was originally that Benewitz document. Yeah,

I mean it. It would seem to me, you know, looking at that and seeing the history of that and what happened later and what was labeled as Project Aquarius, it would seem to me and to most people that it's very definitely mostly disinformation, if that's what they're going to do with it, if it's one thing one day and one thing another another thing another day. But basically I'll designed to late and attract UFO researchers and people who listen to

them. M. Well, we're out of time. But I really appreciate what you do and this book Project Beta. It's been great talking to you. I've always wanted to talk to you some more. And the website is UFO mystic dot com where you do your writing, and well, I don't write there is often anymore, but there's like four four years of nearly daily writing there. But you can spend days there checking out just my writing. And then there's other people on the site like Nick Redfern and Scott Carlis and

Regan Lee and Leslie Gunter. You can also read their stuff too. Okay, is there anything else you're up to that you want to let people know about. Yeah, well, my radio show Radio mysterios is on Sunday nights from eight to ten pm at kill radio dot org that specific time, eight to ten pm. And the site Radio Mysterioso, which is m I S T E r Ioso Radio in front of It dot com is nearly up and you'll be able to listen to the shows and podcasts again probably within a week

or so. And I've been doing this, I've been doing interviewing people on the radio since nineteen so there's a lot of shows that are loaded in, a lot that are coming that are in the archives. Awesome, cool, all right, Well, thank you so much for being on the show. Well, thanks for having me. It was it was fun, all right.

And remember that book is Project Beta. You can go get that at Amazon dot com and it has a lot of what we talked about in there, and it was called Project Beta because interesting enough, Benowitz wrote about everything that he experienced and everything he got from the Air Force, and this is in the book. He called it Project Beta when he wrote it all up. Years later, Dody told him that I liked to you some of that stuff wasn't true, and Benowitz was kind of just so far gone. He

said, no, I don't believe you that this wasn't true. That you know, he believed that it all really was real. So and so do many others out there, So the legends continue. Remember that Greg is also going to be at the wake Up Now Conference, which is the URL for that is Wakeupnowconference dot com and that will be March twenty ninth to May first in Aurbu Karacame. That is it for our show. We are out of time. Thank you all for joining us once again listening to Openminds dot tv

for all your UFO news and information. Don't forget to check out the website because we have the news going on, and then don't forget to join us next week where we'll have another amazing guest. Once again, thank you for listening and we will talk to you next week. To trap Trump to t Yes