Greg Bishop, UFO Author and Researcher

Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with that Martin bad connection. Willis. Well, let's hope that's not true. Yeah, actually it sounds good. We were having problems a minute ago, but it sounding good. Yeah. The internet's been intermittent here, but we better we better start, you know, just keep talking and get into it. Huh. Okay, Well, first I'll talk about my guest, and that is I'm really this is what

I'm super excited about because it's been years in the making. Again, cannot believe that I haven't had a mom before. But my guest is Greg Bishop, and I'm a really big fan of his. I often reference his book Project Beta. And the reason why is, of course, people who listen to my show know that I'm into this whole Richard Dodie, William Moore thing. And I actually am going to give a short overview for people just so

they can be on the same page. We talk about it in the show, but I want to make sure that everybody has a strong idea of what we're talking about. So because it's more fun when you feel like you know what people are talking about. But essentially the situation where this gentleman William Moore, who is a big deal because because of the Roswell event which is coming up here soon and Greg and I will talk about that, but he was a UFO researcher. It turned out he was working with a guy who was

working for the Air Force, Richard Dody. Richard Tody claimed that you know, he was doing this this information program, and his outlet for information was this man named Paul Benowitz who wasn't in the know, and Benowitz working a Klin Air Force base, and Benowitz was a scientist, and so he believed

he was getting these signals and pictures of aliens. And Doty said, we wanted him to believe that so that the Russians wouldn't find out what he was really getting, which was signals and pictures of our secret projects here at Kirtland. So we fed him a bunch of stuff about aliens. The guy got paranoid, essentially went crazy. Turned out years later that Bill Moore was working with Dody and helping him with all of this stuff. So very controversial issue.

I've written something up and talked about it quite a bit, but I think the only one who's talked about it, probably more than I via a podcast is our guest today, which is Great Bishop. He has his own podcast called Radio Mysterioso, and like he says, he's been podcasting before it was called podcasting. So a big fan of Great Bishops. And you'll hear why when we talk more about all of this in just a minute. Yes, I have been trying to get Greg on my own show. His hours

are his hours just do not line up with my show. Unfortunately, it's too bad because he's great. And this whole thing about Dodie and the misinformation, now I know he had Chris Lambright who's a friend of mine. He was on your show talking a bit about the Paul Benowitz case. What a convoluted mess, that whole thing, And it's really where Dulcie was first, you know, actually disinformation generated from MJ twelve thing and MJ twelve, that's

right, the beginnings of that. Yeah, so we don't talk so much more. Pardon me, Bill Moore walks out, you know, I mean basically comes clean. It's in the interview. This is what we talk about with great rightship, So you can edit this out. No, I'm not going to know, all right, another awkward moment, but anyway, Yeah, I'm not going to edit it out. But you know you're talking what you're discussing, you're obviously excited about too, because it is terribly interesting,

and so I didn't want to spend the whole time talking about this. In fact, I want to have Great Bishop on later to talk more about this. But actually, to be honest, most of the show turned out to be talking about this because I wanted to talk about other things that Great Bishop is up to, because he just wrote a book called It Defies Language, which is really cool too, with a lot of different stories about ufology,

but a lot of it comes back to this for him. So and one of the reasons he's so important is he's one of the few people still talking to Bill Moore. So yeah, we'll get into all of that. Wow, fascinating, huh it is I didn't know that. I didn't know anyone was talking to Bill. Oh yeah, wait, yeah, he's the only one. So yep, you will enjoy the show as well. I will, yes, But before that, let's get into the news UFO news. Did it did did did it? Did? Did so? Go ahead,

and what's the first story? You wanted to talk about there, Betty Well, I think this is a great one. This is this happened all the way back on October two, twenty twelve, and it's another posting by Roger Marsh. He's digging through to find all these really interesting mofon case. This is case number forty three and five zero. Can be right, Let me sure I got that down. Oh, the witness says, the triangle UFO emitted sound of horns and trumpets. Yeah, really bizarre. This is in

Davis, California, where I know there's a university there. I used to drive by there. He was watching and videotaping with his phone a triangle shaped UFO until his phone conked out. He only got about thirty one seconds I think now. His dog seemed very anxious and wanted to go outside. This is at one forty three am again on October second, twenty twelve, when

this incident occurred. And this is a quote by him. I remember hearing a loud sound of what sounded like what seemed like horns or trumpets from all around, the witness stated, And I remember being very early in the morning, maybe two AM, and thinking, why isn't anyone else waking up to this sound. So he went out and he saw this triangular formation of lights, and you can see on the video that's posted on open Minds that there's

like these flashing flash formation of lights. It's not navigation lights, not the way they flashed, because the center light is flashing as well. Really great, short little video, but this kind of reminds me of something you hear Linda multen Howe talking about how people are hearing these sounds of trumpets and horns. They're reporting it all over the world, which is kind of strange, you know, just another one of those strange phenomena. But it kind of

reminded me of that, and it's definitely an interesting case. Check it out. Yeah, that is an interesting case. The video is pretty good. Some people were saying those are definitely airplane strobe lights, and I AM posted a video in the story of some strobe lights and it could be. I mean, you can put them wherever you want over your plane, and it does look stro similar. But so the video alone, I guess you can't

for sure and say it's not an aircraft with strobe lights. But it is a very vivid video, so people can take a look this object seem to be pretty close, and the California investigator, he even made some comments in the story, and I talk about his comments. He very much feels like this was an unknown and something strange. So the trumpets thing, again, you can't hear these trumpets in the video. The witness said he saw these things and heard the trumpets twice. So again, you know, it's hard

because I haven't seen a convincing video of the trumpets thing. They all seem kind of dubious, and some of them have been proven to be hoaxes. So so I don't know. But is it based on something real? Maybe I don't know, but that at least the the move on guy really thought this witness was was credible and that this was the real deal. But yeah, it's an interesting video. What kind of blowhearts would be hoaxing trumpet noises? What kind of blowhards are these aliens? Anyway? Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, a bunch of blowhearts all over. No, that's I like that A couple things. I guess I'll get to this one first. I wanted to write a story about it, and I've done some research on it, but you know what, I'm not going to have time. I got to get ready for Roswell tomorrow. Hopefully I might have time to write something on it tomorrow maybe, but just in case I don't, I'm going to

talk about it anyway. I don't even have something up on the website about this, but some of you may have heard about it, and if not, then you'll hear about here, which is good. But essentially there's a story going on out there about this guy, Victor Vigiano. Have you heard

this one? No, Victor Vigiani. So they had this Canadian kind of panel this weekend and Richard Dolan was there, Grant Cameron, some other Canadian researchers, and the previous Defense Minister for Canada, Paul Hellier, was there. He's been at the IUFO c. Of course, hell You's subscribed to a lot of really fringe ideas in ufology. Unfortunately, he has no official story. He didn't investigate UFOs. He says a general told him that the

Roswell thing was real. He hasn't identified who that is, but that's about the only thing he has that isn't outside of just kind of reading kind of the more fringe stuff on the internet. But during this Victor Vigiani, who has a newspaper kind of thing that he does in h and he really writes some really fringe, wild kind of stories and sometimes he just feels that aliens

are here to attack and stuff. So like this this story that we just reviewed, if he were to write it, he would have said something like aliens attack Davis, California or something like that. And I hear he's a really nice guy. I think that's just genuinely what he feels is going on. So he made a comment in this meeting that I've got these files from Noorad. They're amazing. They prove that they're looking at aliens, and I am going to talk about these and share them with the world, even though

I can go to jail and get indicted. Any read part of a file that says any distribution of this kind of information threatens national security and violates the Espionage Act of the United States. So it sounds really exciting, right, And then he finally gave these files to Roger marsh again of Moufon who posted them. But like always, major disappointment. It's none of that stuff. So these files, which aren't great, they're Canadian files, so they're interesting,

they're older files. I'm actually going to be speaking about some of these files at the Moufon Symposium in August in Orlando. I'm going to be talking about government UFO agencies and Canada for a small period of time had an official UFO investigation and some of these files stem from that. But they're just kind of like the blue book files. Nothing too exciting, but some interesting cases that they investigated, so nothing too interesting there. He also cited a letter,

and this is the only piece of new information. He wrote a letter saying he wants the UFO information from nora AD, which is the North American like radar command sort of thing where they look watch space and radar and everything. And they sent him back and said, you know, we'll send you some material. And essentially they also talked about what are called toa's tracks of

interest. We get about eighteen hundred tracks of interests of which you know we've had and we scramble like about seventy five jets to check out these things. So he's like saying, you know, this proves that they're watching aliens, and their chain saying aliens, well, not really. If you look up the definition of the tracks of interest, which is something you know, you

can go to John Greenwald's site and find this. You can. Chris Rukowski talked about all of this actually at our UFO Congress, and he's got all of these files as well, and he showed some of them at the congress. They are like an unknown airplane, so it's actually a drug trafficking terminology. So if they see a plane that they think is often you know,

you don't know what it is, it's a track of interest. In fact, I looked up one of these in John greenwald site and it was a plane where it's transponder wasn't working, so they didn't know what it was. They found out it was a plane's transponder not working, so that plane got that transponder fixed. So not as exciting as everything he's saying. But what's kind of cool is in the letter it says we can't give you details on these toise because it's still classified. However, we can tell you that we

get eighteen hundred tois and seventy five scrambles, So that's interesting. But it's hardly anything he's going to get in trouble for. It's not anything that hasn't been out there. Before, so just the delivery was completely way over exaggerated. So you're going to see these extreme over exaggerations online. But if you want more of these details, I kind of outlined all of this at the h and the Open Mind UFO news group, so you can see our conversation

about it there. And I saw alabambamamof I'm posted with Richard Hoffman as their director, and we talked about it there as well. But just just to be careful, you're going to people will run across it because it's going to be all over the internet, and unfortunately the information isn't being vetted before it's being posted out there. But Roger did a pretty good job actually accurately summarizing.

I got conf used because what Roger had stated was not necessarily what you know, I felt Victor was saying, and so I was really confused. But Roger was actually very accurate in his statement. So so there you go. Yeah, and he'll run across it. The other story I wanted to talk about real quick here Did you see this one? A ten thousand dollars reward? Yeah? To decipher the Roswell UFO memo. Have you ever had anyone on to talk about that memo. No I thought about having Rudiac on.

I think I tried to reach out to him before. Yeah, yeah, because as far as I know, you know, he was the only person that got as far with it as I mean, he got further with it than anyone else did. And I looked at your article about that, and I see the you know, them getting words out of I don't know how, you know, I can't really see those words, any of them. A couple of them, like V or something like that, you can kind of figure out. But some of those words are really difficult, and

I don't know if there's any technology that can possibly crack that. Yeah, that's a really good point. So here's the deal, and that's the issue essentially. You know this memo. There's Roger Raimi, General Roger Rami and Colonel Thomas du Boy are in this famous picture from Roswell and they are sitting there with debris that looks like a weather balloon and Roger Rami is kneeling down

and he's got a memo in his hand. Now, these are pictures that were released on July eighth, when the Army said because it was the Army Air Force, Air Force was still part of the Army at this time. The Army said, oh, no, that wasn't a spaceship that crashed in Roswell. That was actually a weather balloon. And this is the day after they said the opposite, They said, no, that was a space ship.

So, you know, Jesse Marcel Junior or I'm sorry senior, who was the first intelligence officer to look at the debris, is also in some of these pictures with the debris. He later said that, you know, the debris, the weather balloon debris was not what I found in the desert, but they told me to say it was so like a good soldier,

I did what I was told. And Colonel Dubois, who's actually also in the picture, he went on to become a general also, I believe he later has said that that weather balloon was not what was found in the desert, that was put there by Roger Ramie, so that it wasn't what they

found. And later the Air Force in nineteen ninety four put out a report about Roswell and they admitted that that weather balloon material was not what was found in Roswell, but they said, we believe that Roger Raimie switched out the debris because what was actually found in Roswell was debris from a Project Mogul balloon. And this is a balloon with some sound equipment that was monitoring to listen to Russian nuclear testing. Now that was a secret project at the time.

However, that would also be debris that would be easily identifiable. You would think no one would mistake that for something strange. So that's kind of the

story. And however, in this photograph I was talking about with Ryth Raimi and Dubois, David Rudiak took a look at this and zoomed in and he felt that, you know, with the modern technology being able to scan the slide and stuff like that, he would be he could tell some letters that were in the memo, and he feels at least pretty confident about these two phrases. One of the phrases in the memo, he says, says and the victims of the wreck, and the other says in the disc they will

ship. He also says, you can see weather balloon. So that's important because weather Balloon shows that the memo is referencing this Roswell thing. He says the disc they will ship refers to a disc, so he feels that proves a disc was found. And like I said, possibly more startling is he feels the victim of the res corroborates some witness testimony that they were et bodies found at the wreck. So that's about, you know, he's been able

to decipher what he feels the memo says. However, Kevin Randall in this recent blog post that he was discussing with a friend of his that that's not enough. You know, David Rudiak has done some great work, but he's not you know, you need to take this to a lab or someone incredible so that you know, the mainstream community can accept that what is said in this memo. But that would cost a lot of money, and it's just

someone doesn't have that money. And so this person said, well, you know what, let's put up I'll put up a ten thousand dollars reward, so then that person could get reimbursed if they do go get this analyzed. And so that that's what created this ten thousand dollars reward. So now if you go to a lab, you take this photo, take it to a lab, have the pay the lab to get this deciphered or some of their photographic expert or expert in this arena and pay for that to get deciphered,

then you know, you could win ten thousand dollars. Some people have argued, well, no one's going to completely agree on the what the information says, and Randall says, well, we all agreed on the rogersreel slides what the placard had said. Once that was deciphered, everybody, especially who listens

to our shows, knows what that debacle was all about. But when the picture with the plat was shared with the public, it was quickly determined what it said, and it was quickly accepted except for, as Randall says, by the people who had a vested interest in that picture being an alien, which no one felt it which most felt it was not. So And you

and I, for instance, agree what the placard says. So Kevin Randall being who he is, a trustworthy person, and if he's the guy to make that determination, then you know, I think I have faith in Kevin. So yeah, it's kind of an interesting situation. I wonder what if anyone will take him up. And I don't know what kind of lab you would go to. Well, you know, the FBI or CIA definitely has a lab that would crack something like that, but I don't know how you

would get access to them. I don't know how many other places would because it would have to be someone doing serious investigations for like national security, that would have the top of the line tech tech for that time of work. I believe there are places that do testing. I think you and I talked about that before that will certain type of tests and are very expensive. Ten thousand dollars may not even near cover it. It's very possible, you know.

I always think about how what a blunder that was for him to have the memo in his hand that actually would spell that out. I mean, they never probably would have thought that technology would come along that could crack something like that. Yeah, and I don't know. Maybe technology in the future will even you know, get better to where maybe we don't have at least easily available or readily available the technology to do this right now, but mainly

in the future we will. You would think someone be able to decipher it. And you know, interesting enough, in that report that I talked about where they admitted that the weather balloon wasn't real, they said that they the video, the photo analyzed, and their lab could not decipher what was in the memo. So it's interesting that the Air Force said they did that, and it is a bit hard to believe that they couldn't decipher anything. But I don't know, you can take a look. I'm not good at deciphering

this type of stuff. So I'm kind of like you. I kind of feel like I can't see victims of the wreck and Fort Worth, Texas, but only kind of. I don't. I can't say for sure. Yeah, I'm sure there's some type of probability program that will take you know that in these labs, because if you can't really spell it accurately, I mean, you can't really see these things accurately, but it would probably do a percentage and a probability of a word. That's probably what it'll boil down to.

Hopefully it's not a memo about his lunch. You know, I would like, you know, and then he talks about the weather buildin because I'm stuck at this stupid weather but press conference. But after that, I would like a you know, coffee on a saucer. Yeah, victims of the lunch, Yeah, exactly, that's what it says, Yeah, so good, we'll find out interesting. All right, Well, I guess we will conclude. Of course, there's more news at Openminds dot tv, where we

post UFO news daily. But did you have anything else, any big announcement? Yes, I do. Oh wow this week. Wow. I had a special guest on my show last week and it's still up on my website. And I would love for the listeners who kind of liked this guy I'm talking with today. Alejandro was on my show last week and I thought we

had a really good time. I've gotten a lot of positive feedback, a lot of email from that, and so go over to podcastufo dot com and you'll see the show right there with Alejandro and I. It was a lot of fun. Cool. Did you get some negative feedback? Not one single one, which is very unusual. That is unusual. That freaks me out a little bit. I know, it is kind of scary. Yeah, something's going to happen. Well, that's cool. That's really good to hear.

Yeah, I know. So I'm going to be headed to Roswell in a couple of days for the Roswell event out there, and I'm going to be speaking for actually I usually speak for the UFO Museum, but I'm actually going to be down the street speaking for the Roswell Daily Record, the newspaper that had that you know, iconic front page about the flying Saucer that you see back in nineteen forty seven. So I'm gonna be speaking for the Roswell

Daily Record. This is the first time they're putting something together and it's kind of fun. I'll be there with Colonel Charles Halt, Colonel John Alexander Lee Spiegel, Nick Pope, so some really cool people that I'll be speaking with. Than Keith Aram who did the Phoenix Incident movie, will be with us there, So it's going to be a lot of fun. Well, yes, I hope you say hi to those folks for me. And I had a email exchange with Chuck Halt the other day and he has a new book

coming out in about ninety days or so. Oh yeah, it's kind of his side of the story in this battle between yeah, the convoluted Battle of

Rendall schimp Forrest. Yeah, exactly so. And you know what, Colonel Charles Halt is a colonel and everything he witnessed was witnessed by multiple witnesses, so He's in a very strong position, and I think it's silly to second guess the importance of his testimony and how his testimony and the others with multiple witnesses is much stronger and more credible testimony than despite what you think of it.

And I don't want to taint anybody's thoughts or any thing, but at least not today of Peter Peter Robbins's friend Larry Warren, who was the first to come out with the information, but his his what he had seen is pretty much uncorroborated, so it's it's a story worth telling. But yeah, well that's where you and I met in North Carolina, I think three years ago. Yeah, and we both saw Chuck go up there. He likes to be called Chuck in person. But Charles Holt, you know, talked

about the incident, and I'm telling you, I had goosebumps. I mean that he if anyone is believable, that man is believable. Well what's kind of cool too, and I love doing this is that they a lot of these guys don't have similar perspectives, not the exact same perspectives. Colonel Alexander, Charles Hall, Nick Pope, they don't all agree. Although they all worked in the government, they all had UFO related sort of things that they

were involved with. Colonel Hall not necessarily, although being an insider, he looked into UFOs independently, but with some other colleagues that we're in intelligence, so they all have some special insight. But they don't all agree, and so I'm definitely going to have fun pointing out those differences and not to get them to argue with each other, because that's what's great about these guys.

They're all highly professional, but to try to kind of get to the truth of the matter and that, you know, what are the different perspectives that they each have, What do they agree on, what do they not agree on? Because you know, the truth is somewhere in there. So it's going to be a lot of fun. I highly respect all of these people and I'm just really happy to be a part of it. And it's going to be really cool. Great, we'll have a great time. What are

you going to do? Oh July fourth, Yeah, I'm actually Oh you are I'm away from home. Yeah, I'm away from home and in the fine arts and antiques world doing a big auction coming up on the eighth. So I am planted down in Massachusetts at a beautiful home. I think I showed you a picture of Paul Revere silver. Oh yeah, yeah. Anyway, okay, awesome, we'll have fun. And July second, I think

it's World UFO Day. Okay, that's right. Yeah, So keep an eye on your social media because last year we did a discount for the UFO Congress if you we put out a code for July or for World UFO Day. So I'm trying to arrange the same thing this year. So keep an eye on the social media and I'll send information out about that there. So keep an eye at Open Minds Production on Facebook and our Open Minds TV on Twitter. Keep your eyes to the sky, keep your ass to the sky

like that. I like that. All right, Thank you so much Martin for joining us once again, and you have a lovely July fourth weekend. We won't have a show next week because of the holiday, so I apologize, but we'll be back in a couple of weeks. Have a great one you too. Let's go ahead and talk to Greg. I am very happy to welcome Greg Bishop to the show. Hello, how are you hey? How are you doing good? I'm doing great and super excited to have you

on. And you know what, You're another person who I could swear I do this often. I could swear that we had done another show, but when I looked in my archives and stuff, I guess we haven't. Well, you get to the point where you talk to so many people, I mean, you don't even remember. People say they've been on my show, and I go, what really, And I have to go back and look for the you know, because I've been I've been interviewing people in various formats

since ninety seven, I think, wow. Yeah, And first I was on a pirate radio station and then internet radio, and it's been that since two thousand. October of two thousand, I started my internet podcast type show, and then podcasting actually started being podcasting in two thousand and six or seven,

so it's been that since then. Yeah. Wow, see, I thought I had you on to talk about because we have our shared interest in Although it might have been your book, it's one of the first real books that I read on it, but the whole Richard Dodie situation with Bill Moore and everything, and and yeah, your book Project Beta is one of the few you know, thorough books on that whole situation. So when I was researching, I relied upon it a lot, you know, and always reference

the book when I when I talk about it. But we'll touch on it, well, I think later. But at some point it would be fun and i'd be great to where we'll do a show where we'll talk specifically about just Dody and more and go over that thoroughly in the future. Yeah, I don't usually say anything that makes anybody happy, but then I'm I'm ever so slightly biased because Bill's still a friend of mine. So yeah, so

I'll probably beat you up a little bit about that. You should so, but still you've definitely got some unique insights because of that, And well, I guess to start off, you know, they're a big reason that I'm having you on is because I want to help you promote your book. It defies language, and in this book you have a lot of different essays on the that you've written over the years which touch on many many topics. And Bill Moore and Richard Dody is one of many of the topics you here.

But yeah, just lightly, I guess we could talk about it now. And Bill Moore, for people who don't know was one of the guys who brought Roswell to made Roswell famous, right, I mean he wrote the first book, which leaned heavily on Stanton Friedman's research as well. Yes, but Stanton wasn't credited for the book. I know Stanton has told me why, But do you remember why that is? No? I can't remember why.

Maybe it had something to do with the publishing contract or something they wanted to They mainly wanted Charles Berlitz's name on there because he made a big hit with the Bermuda Triangle book and I guess a few other mystery books, and so they basically paired more with him, and then more actually went to Roswell in seventy eight. I think he was the first person to I believe, the first person to go there and actually talk to people. I don't know if

stan had done that. He had talked to Jesse Marcel and done some background research. I'm not sure if he actually traveled there and interviewed people. Bill did. He gave me a few of his interview tapes from nineteen seventy eight. I still have them. Wow, So I've actually got people talking about these things for the first time since, you know, since nineteen forty seven. There's just two of them. Yeah, I would like to get them.

I'm trying to figure out how to play them back without getting them destroyed and digitize them and then just make them available for everybody. I mean, I'm not going to sell them or anything. They're research materials, so they'd be interesting. And I've heard arguments where people are saying, yeah, you know, it was what's the teletype operator at the radio station Lydia Sleppie. I think the one that was told that was broadcasting or sending a news report

out and then she got a call saying to stop it. And there's a lot of debate over what she was told, when she was told it, what exactly she was told. I've got a tape of an interview with her from nineteen seventy eight. It's like, maybe i'd better digitize that. Yeah, well, let's talk a little bit about Roswell. What it's the fifty ninth anniversary this year, not this weekend, but well, when the show

comes out Monday, it will be this weekend. I'll be heading to Roswell for like the twelfth year in the row to go and talk about UFOs and stuff. I don't know if it's the twelfth, but it's a lot and for the Roswell Daily Record. But you know, I guess from that perspective early on, I guess there's this perception. I think there's a lot of misperceptions about how Roswell really got to be big and famous and really Bill Morri's book was a big deal, but it was more than just an interview with

Jesse Marcel, right, they interviewed many people. Yeah, they interviewed God, I can't remember who else. I think at least mac Rassel or one of the Brasels, their neighbors, the proctors Lydia Slepie. Of course I can't remember everybody interviewed in that book. And then, of course, you know, the second, the Schmid and Randall book went out and interviewed more

people. But Moore's book was the first more and Burlit's book was the first in nineteen seventy eight or nine called the Roswell Incident, which is, you know, if that book hadn't come out, I sort of doubt there'd be a Roswell Festival right now, right because it might have been ignored up to now. Maybe not, but it certainly put it on the map as a as an event to be studied, looked at, and for better or worse, turned into what it has now kind of as a touchdowe if nobody,

if you've never heard of UFOs ever, don't care about them. You know what roz Well is. So that's uh, you know, I think that's the it's basically said in the same breath with any any other famous paranormal anything is. So it's kind of weird that nobody he said more as such a persona and on grata, that nobody really even mentioned as his name, or the fact that if he hadn't written that book, they wouldn't be having that festival there probably, yeah, which is funny, and we'll get into that.

And that's one of the things I guess that fascinated me about the whole Richard Doley Billmore situation is that I feel and we'll see if you feel similar, is that the whole situation got swept under the rug. It's not like anybody forgave Bill Moore for uh. And we'll get into this that people who have listened to the show quite a bit know that Bill Moore it turned out was, you know, working with Richard Doty who was an Air Force worked

for Air Force Special Investigations and they were hoaxing information and other things. And will get your perspective on that. But that's what your book is about Project Beta. But he hasn't been forgiven. But it's not like people don't you know, a lot of the big researchers don't necessarily take it upon themselves to spend a lot of efforts. Some do, but most don't to disparage him. But they just just don't talk about him or that situation at all.

No, they don't because they've got, you know, a lot of good information was uncovered for the first time by Freedman and more to put together that book. But you know, they're so angry at him as what they see as turncoat behavior that they don't want to acknowledge it, which is it's a very it's a very strange situation. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

And I guess from your perspective looking at and knowing that you're a discerning, you know, researcher, you're not someone who just is like many who if it's labeled UFOs and somebody writes about it, then it must be true. You know, you're you're more careful with how you look at things, having access to some of Bill Moore's interviews from that time period that others don't.

I mean, what do you What are your perceptions of the Riswell case at this point, since I haven't thought about it in so many years. The perception of it is well, because the thing is, it's to me, it's like the Kennedy assassination, at least as it stands right now. There's there's a lot of evidence in a lot of directions, and you can place whatever your belief system is on that evidence and find plenty of evidence to

back it up. And I'm kind of undecided about it. I'm kind of doubt that it was something from outer space that crashed with aliens in it. I kind of doubt it. I haven't made a hard and fast decision on it. But the thing is that I think there's until somebody says something about it, somebody who knew what was going on actually says something, and it's corroborated by other people and backed up by some kind of documentation which might be

really hard to find that might have been destroyed. It's going to be really hard to tell whether it was what people, you know, what a lot of proponents think it was, which was, you know, some sort of extraterrestrials crashing here in some sort of structured craft. Well, I'm sure, and I don't think i'll ever be sure, and I don't really mind.

Yeah, which is funny because that perspective is what upsets people. And I understand that because I was just talking with someone the other day about this, because he was asking me my perspective on things and he was shocked to hear I don't believe everything. But like I said, first of all, my beliefs are secondary and I'm pretty much agnostic about everything, and that I don't know for sure. It's possible, but I don't know, And like you,

I'm okay with that. Yeah, I'm totally okay with it. I mean, that's a if you want to talk about a true skeptical viewpoint, I think a true skeptical view still there. Yeah, Yeah, I think a true skeptical viewpoint is I am going to only make a decision on something when I have so much overwhelming evidence that it's impossible for me to remain agnostic

and for UFOs that I don't think that's happened with almost anything. The only thing I'm not totally agnostic about is the fact that people see things that are unexplainable. I'm pretty sure that happens. I'm pretty sure that's happened a lot.

I don't know what the explanation is for it. There's probably hundreds of explanations for different things that happen to people and things they've seen, whether they range from extraterrestrials to you know, underground civilizations to you know, creations of

your own mind based on what you saw all these things. But you know you have to you know, with this field and almost any of these things, anything that's not really people haven't made a decision on yet as a collectively, you can't really come down on one side or the other because then you have to start defending a position, and especially with UFOs, there's when once you start defending a position, there are hordes of people that have come out

and point out all the parts of your argument that are wrong, and and they'll be pretty much correct, right, So you have to keep it,

you know. That's all open minds is called open minds. I think you just you you keep your options open until like I said, there's just so much evidence that you can't really you can't really hold a you know, agnostic position anymore, where you have to say I think this is I think this is what happened, and I'm pretty sure that I'm going to keep it this way and then be able to change your opinion if more information comes up. That's the other thing. You have to be open to new information even if

it doesn't agree with your biases, and see how it holds up. And that's that's a little bit of work. Yeah. You know, someone mentioned in a forum, actually there's a there's an argument, and I try not to get involved with these, but I did in this case. Yeah, it always is. And in this case someone was saying, you know, because because researcher Chris Rutowski, who you know, was saying something similar and one of the guys kind of jumped on him and it was like, hey,

well you don't believe this. You don't believe in you know, psychic phenomena and alien abduction and alien people talking to aliens and all of this, and asking him all these questions like that, and Chris is like, well, you saw my statement. You know, I don't want to get involved, but I drew him in any way because actually, in Chris's defense that actually Chris is just saying that he, uh, those positions he takes are

because there is no proof of those things that that you're mentioning. So it's totally legitimate for Chris to have this perspective. And you're the one who has to, you know, argue your point. Really the burden's on you, not Chris. And then this person's like, oh, I feel like I'm getting beaten up, and not at all. It's just open discussion. But you're the one who has to kind of you know, you guys be eaten up. You have to. You have to. You have to defend your

position. If you don't defend your position and just expect people to believe you, that's what children do, right, so right, you have to. And if you can't defend the position, you take the position that Chris or I or you or many other people do, which is I'm not sure yet and I'm reserving judgment. I think Chris is more like there's no proof therefore it you know, I'm not gonna put any stock in it yet. Mine's a little different. Mine is there's not enough proof yet, but I'm still

highly interested. Like I think remote viewing is, it's is something that really actually works because I've experienced it, which is you know, that's a that's a uh, that's personal experience. But something like you know, our ghosts, dead people that are coming back to haunt us, I'm not so sure. I'm pretty sure there's things called ghosts that people see, but I'm not exactly sure what causes them, where they come from, and how we perceive

them, which is a huge part of it. Perception, I think, is something that people don't really pay attention to and how we perceive things. That's kind of what I'm crusading on right now, as you know, mm hmm, yeah exactly. So that is, and you know what, your perspective will be very welcome on this podcast. Of course, I'm open and

welcoming to people with all different perspectives. I certainly don't mind people. I respect everyone having an opinion, even those people who want to believe in everything. That's you're right, fine, but we all, you know, respect

that everybody else can be skeptical. But there was another person in there who said, kind of getting back to what you had mentioned, he said, that this topic is like a religion everybody had, or politics, everybody has a said opinion, and when we come into these type of debates, nobody changes their mind and their opinion. It's set and at least kind of what you described. I don't feel that way whatsoever. I change my mind on

a regular basis. I mean if someone provides some good evidence or proof or even a credible anecdotal kind of story, that often influences my opinion. So being agnostic, my beliefs and opinions are wavering all over the place. Yeah all the time. Yeah, I think you're like me that there's you have a spectrum of belief or opinion or agreement or whatever you want to call it.

And like, I will say that what that. I still think that there's a high probability that Rex Heflin photographs something that was anomalousts in Santa Anna, and you know, the pictures that look like a straw hat or whatever. I'm pretty sure he photographs something that's anomalous. I'm open to people that say it wasn't. I've looked at the studies they do one hundred percent convinced me. But then again, you know, so it's still undecided to me,

undecided and unexplained. However, what the when somebody sees something and it looks like it looks like a floating lantern, it's probably a floating lantern. I've been out on one of those called skywatches with people. People get very excited when they see lights and I say, that's an airplane, and they get upset with me. How do you know, I said, because I'm a pilot. There's a red light, a green light, and a white, blinking white light. That's an airplane. And they're all in the right

place. The green lights on the right side, and they'll red lights on the left side. Yeah, but people get upset because of that. But you know, I assume fairly heavily that that's a normal that's a normal plant. If something comes flying over, you know, way faster than a normal than any than physically possible. A light comes shooting over and makes weird right angle turns and back and all that, that's not an airplane. I haven't seen that yet. I'd like to. But the other thing is if I

did see that, what does that prove to me? It proves to me that there's strange things in the sky that we can't identify. It doesn't prove to me there's aliens coming from other planets visiting us in structured ships. It just means something strange we can't explain yet it's happening, and we have to

look for an explanation. Yep, exactly, I mean. And that's what gets difficult in this field, I think sometimes, and I get really uncomfortable even at our own events, because then it becomes kind of almost more like a religious event, where if you're not saying you're seeing a UFO, it's sacrilegious, and it is kind of this group think that almost pressures people who are there into believing or saying, oh, yeah, that was a UFO. Yeah. Well, they want to belong to a group. Every course.

Everybody wants to belong to group and be accepted. I do too. I like that, but I'm not going to be accepted in a group just by putting away my critical thinking. In fact, in the last few years, I've stopped really care exactly what people think. If you don't agree with them, or if I say something that upsets them, I don't really care anymore. But I'm not mean about it. I don't tell somebody I'm smarter than them because I think I figured something out or that you know, they're

just they're not open minded enough because they can't consider what I mean. I don't care about that stuff. What I care about is learning more constantly, and if there's people around that can help me learn more and are fairly agnostic, and really importantly they're not emotionally attached to their opinions, that's wonderful.

It's hard not to be emotionally attached to your opinions, but especially with the UFOs, you can't be, or like I said before, you'll get locked into a defensive position and you just get more and more entrenched more or people come up to you and say, well, how can you believe this? And what about this? And have you considered this? And that? If

you're emotionally attached to that, you're not gonna listen anymore. You just start filtering out anything that doesn't agree with you, and that's no way to learn

anything now. And the reason that I went off on this tangent and the reason we got here, which is great because I love this discussion and I think a lot of the listeners will as well, But the reason I witnessed the direction, because it's interesting that even with the insight that you have, you're still agnostic about Roswell, which I understand because I find it hard not

to be myself. But Bill Moore, maybe you can explain in your terms, how did it come to be then that he became this persona non grata and kind of this and disappeared, I mean, how he reacted to that. He didn't disappear right away. Just nobody was saying anything helpful. Everybody was mad at him. Nobody was joining him to try and help and figure out. So he just said, finally, just said, I forget it.

That's part of my life. That's over now. Sometime in the early to mid nineteen nineties, mid Well, I think he completely got off of it. In the late nineteen nineties, How would you frame I guess concisely what happened, like what he did and and why people were upset with him? Okay, yeah, I was going to get to that. Bill Moore was a UFO researcher. He wrote first he wrote also with Charles Burlet's The Philadelphia Experiment Book and then the Roswell Book. He became a fairly important,

well known UFO researcher. He was speaking at conventions all the time, and because of an agreement he made in the late seventies, probably seventeen, I think seventy nine, yeah, late nineteen seventy nine, he was being given supposedly secret documents on UFOs by somebody in the government or a group of people. The thing is, and this is when he was writing the Roswell book. I mean, when the Roswell Book was released, he was contacted and

said, would you like to help us out? And if you help us out, we will give you some UFO documents that nobody else has seen. He said, all right, you know who wouldn't take that deal? A lot of UFO people would jump at it, and of course he did. As it turned out. His part of the deal, though, was that he had to since there was no Internet at the time and no way to really know exactly what people were talking about, he was supposed to provide answers

when they were saying. When somebody in the government would say, well, what are people saying about this military base or anything about this, or did somebody see this light what's going around in the UFO community, because it might have been something they were testing and they wanted to know what people had seen because they wanted to guard against you know, unauthorized people seeing things that they

weren't supposed to see or knowing things they weren't supposed to know. So he was there in into the UFO community, and of course he couldn't say anything to anybody because then they'd clam up. Of course, you know I would too, So he didn't say anything, and he continued to report on people's

activities, what they were doing. He passed messages back and forth between different spy agencies, like he got letters from Russia and there were basically I believe there were letters from Russia, but there were letters from people that were Russian, that were Americans who were in Russia as spies, but they were sending things to the United States to, you know, to a UFO researcher, like, you know, I'm a Russian UFO researcher. Would you like to

communicate this is what I know? And there were code embedded in those letters from post cards, and he'd have to call this number and just read the letter. Everything in the letter, all the if anything was spelled Funny'd have to spell it all the punctuation and everything, because there was code in those letters telling people what the people in Russia were reporting back on. So he basically did spy work in exchange for getting UFO information and documents, and he

got lots of them. But then, this is according to more, were you able to verify that he was telling the truth, that this really happened. The only other person that was going on that this was happening to was his research partner, Jamie Schanderay, who I did talk to extensively for a long time. He's somebody that nobody ever talked to. Really, He's never

really been interviewed that much. And he dropped out of the field too, right after he was on Coast to Coast strangely enough, in nineteen ninety nine. But what I say in defense of morning, they say, well, how do you know he's telling the truth? Two reasons. One, we're pretty good friends and he's always been straight with me. And two everything he's

told me has later turned out to be true. Well, everything that I've been able to, you know, verify later I found out either through other people, through documents, through through things I saw on the internet, through any various amounts of various types of information that I gathered. Nothing he's told

me I've been able to find out was a lie. So and on the top of that, like I said, we've been fairly good friends since nineteen eighty eight or eighty seven, I think, and I trust him in the way you trust your friends, and that you know, that's a unique situation. And I, you know, I can't tell everybody, well, he's my friends will usually trust him. I'm saying, he's my friend. So this is why I trust him, right, And this is you know,

and he's like I said, he's never steered me wrong. And if he can't tell me something, or if he couldn't, we don't really talk about this stuff anymore. He would say, I can't really talk about it. I may be able to tell you someday, but right now I can't talk about it. And some of the things he told me later and other things

he didn't, which is fine. But he told me as much as he could, and in fact, he knew that when he told me something, there was a good chance I was going to use the information in some way. So and that's part of the reason why he told me. And the other part was, you know, we're just friends, and he you know, he wanted to share things with me. So yeah, because the hard part is, as much as I've tried, you were using terms like they and them they wanted him to do this or they needed him to do that.

I haven't been able to verify there have been a they or them beyond Richard Doty. But do you Falcon, the guy that he said was running this whole operation. Well, but Falcon's existence is not confirmed. I mean the only person that you know, uh, the only people that say they've met him or talked to him are Bill Moore and Richard Doty. That's true and so and these are at least I feel Bill Moore hasn't always been trustworthy,

and certainly Richard Doty has not. I will agree with you, Yeah, because you write that you write about that definitely a lot in your book. Yeah, Bill wasn't one hundred percent happy with Project Beta. M H. I had him read the manuscript just you know, because he said I

wanted to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. Yeah, according to him and anybody you know, I had him read it and then a couple other I had a couple of UFO researcher friends read it too, just to make sure that there doesn't anything wildly wrong with what I'd written and what Bill said he got finished, I said, what do you think? And he said, I don't agree with everything in there, and I'm not totally happy about

it. But I said what I needed to say, and you found out things that I didn't even know, which not all of which make me happy. I said, well, he goes, I'm not going to tell you to change anything, but that's how I feel about it. So I say that sometimes I'll let people know I didn't write the book at his behest so that he could he can have a story told. He was just a source

in the book. And like I said, he didn't agree with everything in there, and he wasn't happy about everything in there, but he didn't have arguments against them. I think he was just uncomfortable about that certain things he said, maybe he thought he shouldn't have or revealed things he shouldn't have, or other people corroborated things that he didn't know about that made him said.

I didn't ask him exactly what he was upset about, but he said it was the You know, he was satisfied with the way where the book was, but not totally happy with how it. Yeah, other people it's like, well, good, then I feel like I've done a fair job. So you're convinced than that was not working alone though, that there was essentially a disinformation project that Dody was kind of point on. Well, the thing is that Kurtland Air Force Base, where all this took place, is a

home to many different projects. The Air Force basically, you know, it runs everything there because it's an Air Force base, but there's other groups there doing things. The NSA has a presence there that I think the maybe the National Reconnaissance Office, maybe the CIA, I'm not exactly sure about all these

groups. There's many different groups though, working on secret projects, and they were you know, just as many back in nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine, eighty you know, the period of the book, which is about nineteen seventy eight to about eighty six seven, something like that. These groups were all there. They all had interest in things that were going on at the

base. They all had secret projects they had to keep, you know, they had to keep under wraps and make sure that people weren't watching them and you know, stealing the information and sending to Russia or China or whatever, and so Dotie was just the one everybody hears about. So they they they say, well, Dotie is the bad guy in this, and he did everything. He didn't really he did a lot of stuff. But you know,

the NSA was there. In fact, they were. They were set up apparently across from Paul Benowitz's house and sending him signals so that he wouldn't take he wouldn't be getting the signals they were sending around working on some coded information. I believe I talked to a guy in the NSSA that told me about this, So you have verified that. So you've talked to an NSSA for someone in the NSA, then this would be a third party who told

you that they were sending Benowitz signals. Uh. He did not tell me that, but he did say that there were there were projects on the base that the NSA was running. That's all he could tell me. Okay, So but the thing is, I I know that Benowitz got had was receiving, say knows because other people that I talked to, other UFO researchers went to his house and saw his setup and talked to him about it and actually

saw these strange images on a screen that Benowitz described. Bill Moore told me about it, and the only thing I can think is either one aliens are sending him these these images, or two, far far far more likely somebody would wherewithal in nineteen eighty to do this is sending him the images to mess with him. And it just so people know, Benowitz was kind of people who aren't aware, no problem. He was the guy that essentially was a

target. So Dodie was having more. You know, give Benowitz's material one thing, as far as I can determine, the Aquarious document, and he actually is, as far as I can tell from talking to More. He said, that's the only thing I ever gave him, and they forced me to give it to him. They said, give this to Paul because we want him to see it. It was something called, I think called the Aquarius Document actually mentioned twelve for the first time ever, right or mostly fake

document. Mori said he took him in a in a a closet at his work and turned up a radio really loud because he knew people there might be bugs in there, and talked in his ear and he said, I was

told to give this to you. Take it with a grain of salt, and apparently he did because he never mentioned it anybody and he locked it away in a safe I mean, I'm sure it affected his thinking, but apparently that was the only piece of dis info that More actually passed Paul Benewitz that you know, they were friends, it's just that he couldn't tell him. He was working with you know, with with with intelligence people to find out

what was going on with them. So it's a very very complicated story with a lot more players, and people think they only concentrate on the main ones More More in doty well, but there are many others. Yeah, well, let's do it. We'll do a show where we talk more about this, because I haven't found evidence that there are except for because everything we know

comes from Dody and More. But I'd like your perspective. But let's move ahead so we can get into other topics, and so just kind of to talk about More's downfall, so he finally comes clean and maybe you could verify whether you believe this to be true or not. Also, just because Hastings kind of Robert Hastings, another researcher who we had on fairly recently, kind of caught wind of all of this and was trying to expose Bill Moore, And so Bill Moore kind of fell on his sword and went out and told

everybody about it at a mof On symposium. I don't think it was only Hastings, but I might be wrong. Uh huh. I respect Hastings and has worked with the UFOs and nukes thing. But I had an online argument with him once and he said, I know that Falcon we talked about earlier was Richard Doty And I said, how do you know that? He said, because he told Linda how I said, you mean you don't believe anything

he says until he tells Linda How something that makes no sense whatsoever. Well, and an argument against that too is that he doesn't necessarily feel that Linda how I know is a credible resource, so he's citing currently he thinks Linda how and Richard Dody a credible resources when it agrees with this idea that about Dody being what they called Falcon. All these different names were made up by More and Chanderrat to refer to these people in the government that they were dealing

with, and Falcon was the guy that was the head of all of it and was telling all the different agencies what to do. They were trying to trap Russian spies. That's basically what's the Benewitz thing. And this whole episode was a tiny, tiny, little part of a huge operation. When UFO people look at it, they think it's just something to drive UFO people crazy, make them look bad, and all that had nothing to do with that

whatsoever. It just had to do with national security. And the way it turned out for ben and Wits was unfortunate because he was unstable to begin with, and all this stuff just made him more unstable, and he ended up

at a mental institution for a few months. His family put him there, and it's unfortunate and horrible, and but the thing is that at the time they didn't care what was happening to him as long as the secrets were kept and they kept a lid on all the black projects that were going on around Currentland at the time. And it kind of seems like, if this is all the way it went, and this is true, then you know, given the story you've given just now. Bill Moore then goes to this symposium

he talks about what he did. People get pissed, they don't want to work with him. Anymore, there's people yelling and screaming, I guess, and leaving. And in the end he didn't even It doesn't seem that he got anything of substance at all. He never really got any seat greats,

not really. I think he got a few. Well, you know what I will say in Hastings defense, I think he was bothering more and just basically was another one, another needle in a side, just saying, you know, you better do something because all the what More told me, I believe was the rumors are going crazy. It was getting worse and worse, and I needed to say something. So I decided to tell them everything that I could at the time, and I said, what would you do it?

The same way again, he goes, I wouldn't be so arrogant, That's the only thing he said. But yeah, everybody, I was at that MOFON convention in nineteen eighty and in Las Vegas. I was standing in the room when it happened, and it was the best speech I ever saw anywhere on anything because of the reaction. You know, I've never seen people react like that to anything, not a political speech, nothing, So it

was a very highly charged atmosphere. I mean, you can see I don't know if it's online because I think Muffon owns it, but I actually somebody sent me a videotape, a copy of the video of his slash. You can hear all the yelling sort of in the background, and the State Section director has to stop the had to stop it about three or four times to

tell everybody to calm down. And then after it was over, more of wrote a whole bunch of He wrote a whole bunch of questions and answered them because he didn't want to take questions from the audience because he turned into more pandemonium and he knew that. But yeah, after that, he said, anybody that still wants to help me, please contact me, And all people

did was get really mad at him, with some justification. But the thing is that I think that in a lot of especially in a weird field like euthology, if you let the emotion, your emotions get the better of you, you're missing a whole lot of stuff. Right. You could still agree with more and still talk to him, but people would not. Instead of instead of talking to him, they would just write him or calling up with accusations instead of why did you do this? Can you explain to me?

He said, all he got was people yelling at him incoherently, so he said, Okay, forget it. Yeah, I don't think I wouldn't have gotten that as an upset. Why I never get that upset. But I mean with him, even I would have just been like, I would have thought it was interesting and fun because it's something to write about and interview people about. But I also would have felt like, well, his credibility with

me would be damaged. But at the same time, and the reason that, just because you just mentioned if people get too emotional about stuff and they miss it, a lot of people just wanted to then just forget the whole episode. And the reason it's important not to forget that episode is what you mentioned earlier, is that MJ twelve was mentioned for the first time in that Project Aquarius document that Dody gave more and this whole legend that even Stanton Friedman

and many others subscribe to. Maybe you do, I don't know, but this whole idea of MJ twelve stems from this incident. Yeah, I think so it was. I asked Bill about this many years later. Recently, actually, in the last couple of years. I said, what do you think MJ twelve was And he said, I don't think it has anything to

do with UFOs whatsoever at all. I just think it was a convenient thing that was extremely secret that it was easy to hang a whole bunch of stuff on because it was a defense it was a defense connected group, it was a small group, and it was a group that wasn't too much on the record, so it's really hard to trace exactly what it was, so they could hang all kinds of identities on it. And that's what they did with

the with the what's with the Eisenhower briefing document? With the what's the mcudler twining membo, all these things that sort of point vaguely to something that nobody can get too much information on. So they were able to hang a whole bunch of disinformation on this little piece of information that's that's obscure and this, like I said, I don't I have you know, the greatest confidence that there was none of it was done to mess with UFO investigators and make them

look bad. And all it was was let's cover up as much as possible all the things that we don't want foreign governments to see and that we don't want UFO investigators to inadvertently start handing to people when they just think it's UFO information, that that's what they were in control, not not. You know, you know a lot of UFO researchers think that the government's really interested in them because of the UFO secret. They're not. You know what, I

think they're just as confused about UFOs as probably more than UFO researchers. And then you know, in fact, they probably looked to them for some answers like what the hell is going on here? But if it starts in a national security they got very concerned and start steering people away from it. Or conversely, another thing you do with this kind of information is see who's interested in it and check up on their background. You know. It basically it's

flight paper for spies, you know. M hm. Well, and like you said earlier, I mean, for instance, when when Benowitz was receiving signals, he lived right across the street from the base, and he had a lab right by the base, and when he was receiving signals, if he thought they were alien, which he did, he might have inadvertently shared that information when it was stuff that the base was working on that they didn't want Russians or others to find out. Yeah, that's what they were worried

about it. He was starting to try and decode it, which really worried them. And I'm not exactly sure what the coded transmissions were. I guess there were some way to you know, I think had to do with microbursts, where you like send a whole bunch of information very quickly and a very short amount of time that just sounds like gibberish until you have the right equipment

to sort of slow it down and decrypt it. And Benow's was figuring that out, and they're like, jeez, we've poured billions of dollars into this and this guy's figuring it out. So let's find out how he's figuring it out and who he's talking to, and see if we can prevent this in the future by kind of keeping an eye on him. So, you know, his problem was he was just too curious. And his second problem, which was bigger, was that he drew very outlandish conclusions from little bits of

data that that didn't mean when he thought it did. And that's unfortunate. I mean, nothing pathing it was brilliant, brilliant electronics engineer, but combined with his belief that there was some aliens around and that apparently they were invading the world or at least the United States, that that that it kind of

it set the stage for him to eventually just have a breakdown. And then in defense of the people who believe that this was UFO related and doubt your your how you try to explain it was more to do with the Russians and other things. Dodie goes on past this even to recent years to talk about these wild UFO and alien claims that he has which are absolutely ridiculous, well,

including cirpo. Yeah, and to explain what CIRPO is. This happened in the nineteen no, the early two thousands, something like that or mid I can't remember what year it was, Yeah, not that long ago,

seven eightthing. Yeah, Yeah, there was a rumor that there was a an exchange program between some alien civilization and the United States government, and they sent some astronauts to their planet and some of the aliens came here, and then after a whild aliens went back, and some of the astronauts came back. Some of them died and a couple of them stayed or whatever. That

was the story. Absolutely zero way to verify that whatsoever, but that it was making this stories were making the rounds basically on this guy named Victor Martinez's email list. I was on the list. I was yeah, I was kind of going, what the hell's going on here? And then after it got to a fever pitch, a few of the players and interested people went on coast to coast with Noriri and talked about it, and one of them was Richard Dodi. And when I heard that, I was like, oh

my god. I mean, and him and a couple other people were people that were around and doing these sort of things when Benowitz was being messed with, I said, how can you in your right mind think that this has anything to do with any kind of actual reality when these one the same people are involved too. It's completely outlandish, and three it has it has no

way to be verified. I think it was being done to pas messages again somehow, because Martinez when he was getting these emails, whoever was giving him to him. I guess the guy's name they used request Anonymous was the person's the sources name. He started changing some of the language because he's an English teacher. And he said, oh, well, you know this is written wrong. Let me correct the sentence structure. And this is spelled wrong. They wrote to him and said, do not change any of this stuff,

because if you do, we're going to stop sending it to you. Why should they care? I think the reason was because there was something encoded in all those punctuation, grammar, spelling and whatever errors that needed to be seen by somebody. And one a message might be passed, and two whoever can figure out the message starts talking about it, and they can watch their email

and their phone calls and everything. It's like, guess what just came out of so and so it said this, You know, how did you figure that out? Well, then they know something they're not supposed to. So I think it was they were out there trying to, like, like I said, a spyfly paper again. And then there were some IT guys that looked into it as well, and they felt they were able to prove that

the emails were coming from the same IP address as Richard dodies. Yes, yes, I heard about this, and then and then Doty stopped talking to me because of that, because of CERPO, because I implicated him and on Uophi Mystic. Actually, there's a some of this is in the it defies language, there's right entries on that. Yeah. Yeah, the one reason I wanted to bring it up. Yeah, Doty stopped talking to me at that point. As soon as he saw my post. He said, I

was offended by your post. I don't want to take me off any list you're on, and I don't want to hear from you ever again. And he hasn't talked to me since then. And I wasn't friends with him or anything, but you know, I was. It was a cordial enough relationship to be able to talk to him, ask him questions and get him on Coast to Coast when I was on for Project Beta. He actually came on and talked more than I did, which is good. It was a great

show because of that. Yeah. In fact, whether you believe him or not or whatever the worries or whatever you want, that was historic. It was the first time he was on any media talking about anything to do with

any of this, and it was it was pretty amazing. Yeah. In fact, I use that show as my one source from Dodie because it's the only place where it's coming straight from his mouth, because every time someone interviews him in print, which of course was the medium before when all this was happening, he easily and does deny, Oh, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. He does this all the time, and he'll change

his story back and forth. And I feel a lot of these print sources are credible sources, such as the saucer smear, which he wrote in a lot where he contradicts himself left and right, which you found as well. So that's why I use that interview as the one source because and I always give the caveat that I don't trust what comes from this guy's mouth at all. It changes constantly. So just to reference what his story is, here's the one time he's on the record and you can go listen to him for

yourself. Yeah. Well, people have problems with Dodie as well, or anybody any spy type person, intelligence connected person, because it's like, well, how can you trust what they say? Well you can't, But if you don't listen, you get nothing. Yeah, and if you listen occasionally there's things you can check up on. This is what I interviewed him for about I don't know, like three hours, a big three hour interview.

We just sat in a Denny's in New Mexico at this at a table and interviewed him for three hours without a recorder, which was unfortunate because he wouldn't let me. But the thing is I wanted to talk to him because he was an important part of the story. And you know, a lot of people's like, why do you even talk to him? He's a big liar. It's like liars, aren't you know, he doesn't lie all the time, and if he isn't, I can check on the stuff that corroborates.

You know, did Dotie say something? Okay? So did Bill Moore say something? I trust Bill? And then he on top of that, What if I talk to what gave Valdez or I talked to Gary Massey, who was another person that knew Benewitz. What if I talk to these people they tell me the same thing. Well, then probably Doty is telling me something that actually happened from his point of view, and I have to consider that

as possibly an important part of the story. Then if he tells me something that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, that seems highly implausible and whatever, And there's no way for me to check on it. There were many things he told me I didn't even mention in the book because they're either irrelevant or I was pretty sure they were false. And if he did tell me something that I that I that only came from him, I made certain to say that this is you know, this is a DOTY said this,

not somebody else. And if I just say this happened, that means two or three or more people told me basically the same story. Well, I tried to do it that way. I mean, I didn't believe everything anybody told me. Yeah, well, let's let's get on other topics, because I didn't want to use the whole show talking about that. Oh wait a second, we did just use the whole show talking about that. No, I just pretty much, I'm just kidding. It's it's terribly interested.

Obviously. I'm so interested in it. And I think, you know, because so much of the mythology that people believe in, like you know, I talked with a religious fervor where it's sacrilege to doubt some of these things like m J twelve all stem from this episode. Sacrilege not to doubt everything. I agree, brother, I agree, but that's okay. I want to bring you on and talk more about all of this actually, so we'll talk to more about all of this. But I guess before we leave,

a couple of things I wanted to note about the book. So it's really cool that red Pill Junkie. You know, he's a guy online that that's his Twitter handle, and he's always in there kind of posting stuff and asking questions. He's got a great sense of humor. And I didn't even know till the conference when you guys were there, and it was wonderful that you brought him so I could meet him. That people thought I was red pill

drunkie. That's hilarious. But I got that picture of both of you together, so we know you at least we're both in the same place at the same time in the same picture. So you know, either that or there's more red pill junkies around you, you're both red pill junkie. I don't

know, yeah, kind of like anonymous or something. There's well, he came because you know, the reason a lot of people came and I made the special trip is because Jacques Roulet was there and he never makes public appearances anymore, and somehow you got him to appear there, which is wonderful, and he was gracious to everybody. I was flabbergasted at how friendly and accessible he was. But yeah, that's part of the reason that Red Pill came

also because I'd never met him before. We've been talking online for like two years, so he made the effort to come up and we bas, you know, we shared. We shared the whole hotel room in a car and all that stuff, so that would be a little less expensive. But yeah, and he did a This is the first book project he's worked on, and I hope he gets more work out of it because his illustrations and the cover and everything are just beautiful. Looks like a nineteen fifties science fiction movie

poster, which is perfect. Do you do you recognize what that thing is standing in the light on the underneath the UFO? Yeah, that's I can't remember the name of the case, but yeah, that early very popular case those guys in back east somewhere, wasn't it. Or Pasca Gula? Yeah, Pasca Goula. Yeah, that's my favorite. My favorite alien is the Pasca Gooula alien because it looks like it sort of looks like a Kachina.

Yeah, well, it's so weird. In the early you know, creatures things where people were seeing, and in the seventies when lots of humanoids were seeing, they were so varied in the descriptions. They are odd and weird, and the best cases really have really odd description of what has been seeing. Yeah, it's it's I think that's highly significant that, especially nineteen seventies

and before the things that people saw we were very different. Everybody had a different you know, there were so many different humanoid types that people reported. Kind of makes kind of makes you a little questioning about Roswell too. It's like, wow, that kind of conforms to what everybody thinks it is now. Yeah, seventy eight, you know, start maybe on the sixties sort

of Betty Betty and Barney Hill sort of conformed to that. Not really, but then definitely after Bud Hopkins and Willy Strieber's books, especially the cover of Communion, that's what everybody thought an alien looked like. So a lot of the sightings narrowed down to that. And I think it's because people had a template to put on their experience. There's subconscious or whatever's going on. Just

said Okay, that's what the thing looks like. So that's you know these cases nineteen seventy and before nineteen eighty and before I guess nineteen seventies was a very strange decade for humanoid cases. Yes, just as Albert rosalz Or look at his site, all right, right, and of course that's when the the main case happened. And and Travis Walton, Yeah, yeah, I thought that was a major reveal in your book that Red Pelt Junkie is actually

Miguel Romero. Yeah. So yeah, and you're right, his illustrations are really cool, They're awesome. He did a great job in this. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess lastly just to end on for the the all of the people who you know, there's there's some people a lot of my listeners like the critical thinking and their reviewing of all of the and the kind of skeptical review of stuff. But what are just for the something for people

to chew on and to look up. What do you feel our of the most credible cases, maybe even if you have one that people aren't generally aware of, h if there are any I would you know what I would say anything before for abduction cases, anything you can find before nineteen eighty because the things became codified. That for you know, classic cases, Like I said,

I like that Hafflin case. The Pasca Goola case is wonderful apart from the fact that the there was more than one type of alien, but that was the main one, was that kachina looking thing because because of the secret recording that was made of the of the two main witnesses when the police weren't there and they didn't think they were being recorded. Yeah. Yeah, so people say, what are we going to say next? They're both just sitting there going, what the hell happened? What are we going to do?

What? You know? How are you know? How are we How's this gonna affect our lives? I'm totally freaked out, you know, all this stuff. When then when nobody was listening, So, something definitely strange happened to those two guys. I don't know exactly what it was or what I would have seen if I was standing there, but to me, that's you know, very strong indication that the something very strange happened to a couple of

guys that had no motivation whatsoever to lie about it. The weird thing is that Charles Hickson, the one of the witnesses in the case, had two more sightings after that, and he wrote about them in in a in uh I think it's called UFO Contact at Pasco Gooule or something like that, a book that came out in the late seventies, and he's described seeing seeing another craft in the in the in the woods, in the in the south in Mississippi where he lived, and his family saw it too, So there's other

people that saw it, So you know what, what what do you make of that? So something very strange is going on with Charles Hickson and and Calvin Parker. But I think that's a well documented, meanted and well uh a case that to me is kind of a landmark if you want to if you want to start with a landmark case, just really get it. If you find a copy of that Charles Hickson book, I think it was he was he had a co writer. I think Menendez or Melendez was the name

of the co writer. Anyway, if you can find that book, it's fascinating book. All right. My last question, because yeah, that's great, that's perfect Pascagoula, which now people know what's on the cover here where that creature comes from. But the last question about the book, then it defies language. What does that mean to you? What was when you came up with that title? Did you hear me talk about this before? Because

I loved this question? No, I haven't. I was working on putting all these essays together, writing some new ones, finding stuff that nobody had ever read before, you know, rare stuff that I just set on my computer for years. I'm getting all this stuff together and Red Pills working with me, and he says, I need a title so I can start designing this cover. And this is October of last year. I said, okay, I'll come up with a title. November, December, January. I

still don't have a title. I can't think of one. I was like, what the hell am I going to call this? So I took the introduction to the book that I'd already written and put it in an online cut up generator, which is basically it takes all the words you have and jumbles them completely randomly, all the same words you know, like, you know, fifteen hundred words, You get fifteen hundred words back in this cut up

generator and it just jumbles them into gibberish completely randomly. I took that and I started reading through the gibberish, and anytime a phrase came to my head, I would write it down. And that was one of the phrases that came out. Oh that's hilarious, because because about four or five different phrases came out, I put them in. I think one of them was extraordinary claims. And I thought, oh, no, that sounds like a total

skeptical book. I don't you know that the skeptic you know, the fundamental one. Yeah, fundamental skeptical movement has co opted that phrase and turned it into something that scares people don't like. I settled on its little too cliche. It's a little more cliche. I settle on it defies language two reasons. One, it's hilarious. It's a book called it Defies Language. That's

great. And two, I think that the terms we use to describe what we see or what UFOs are are limiting us because language limits your thought. It only lets you think about certain things that you can describe in language. So I'm what I'm saying is a lot of you know, a lot of the UFO, any paranormal stuff is limited by the language and the language determines how we think about it, and there's got to be a way to get around that. I'm not not exactly sure what it is. It might lie

in the realm of you know, creative thinking or art. I'm not sure. I've got I've got an essay on there called UFOs is a Cosmic art project. And then I've got a part two. Basically, yes, I I in the talk I'm working on. I'm trying to bring in more things like archetypes and jung and mythology. My wife is working on a doctorate in

that right now. Wow, So actually have a lot of conversations with her about it, and it's relevant to what I'm trying to figure out right now, because I think a lot of the thing what's most important with the UFO question to me is what causes UFO sightings? What do people see when they have an unexplained sighting of something? What is it that they're looking at.

I don't know what that is, but I think it has a lot to do with who we are, how we think about things, what our language is like, all that, and it comes through all those filters before we decide that I've seen a flying saucer with aliens on it or whatever we decide. So that to me is fascinating, and that, to me is a very important question what do people see? And we have to go back to a basic question like that, what do people see? How do they see

it? And is there any way to get past get out of our own way? If you know what I'm saying here, m h Well perfect, And where are you going to do this talk? I've already done one very embryonic version of it and the next as far as I know, the next version is going to be at IUFOC next year. That's right. So yeah, we're announcing it again that I've done this actually with I think the last guest, and we haven't officially announced anybody yet, but I've been announcing a

person to show, not intentionally, it's just working out that way. So we had Paul Stonehill was our guest last week and he will be speaking at the conference. He's also got a new book out And yes, you for and this isn't your first time. It's your first time with us. But you've spoke at the UFO Congress a few other times, haven't you? Two or three times? The last time probably was almost ten years ago, Yeah, because I started saying things that made people mad, and I didn't come

out with a lot of books. But I think one I released this book, and two, I think people are starting to, especially in the last year or so, which is wonderful, are starting to become more open mind about going back to basics and starting to look at things rather than in the nuts and bolts and how can we measure it? And all that thing going going back to what I just said, what do we see, how do we see it? And how does that reflect on how we think about it?

You know what, you can't make a UFO come up on demand. It just it just doesn't work. So you've got to think of different ways to study them. Yeah, And on the far end, the fringe end, I think they're rethinking things too, because on the fringe, a lot of those people out there who are the ones that they follow, you know, almost like the UFO profits, They've made all these promises about what's going to come to fruition and none of those things have happened, And so I

think they're kind of relooking at everything themselves as well. So, which isn't a bad thing at all. We all, I think need to kind of constantly be challenging ourselves in our own beliefs. Yeah, trust no one except for your ability to, you know, to discern what's what's more credible and believable or not. I think that's only the only person you should trust is yourself trusting it. Putting your total trust in anybody else's, I think is always a huge mistake. Amen to that. Brother. Well, it was

awesome having you on. This was a great talk, and we'll definitely talk again, I'm sure before the conference. I would like to at least, but very very excited to have you speaking at the conference as well. And I highly highly recommend the book. And where can people Where's the best place for people to go get the book? Well, for me, the best place is go to lululu dot com because I get the biggest chunk from it. Good. Then that's where we will send people. Yeah, I can

send you those links. But it's also I actually formatted it for Kindle myself. The Kindle version actually is about half the price, and there's about seventy more pages of material and color color illustrations and pictures and things like that in it, and links and things like that, things that you can do in a kindle that you can't do in a print book. So yeah, either go to Amazon you can buy it there by a kindle, or the best for me is Lulu. Secondarily, the best for me is actually Kindle if

people want to do it that way, but cool and kindle. Yeah, all right, thanks so much for being on All right, thanks so much for having me Alhandra and I'll talk to you again soon. Thank you so much to Greg Bishop for being on the show. I mean, I hope you all really enjoyed that. I certainly did. In fact, this might have been one of my favorite shows in a long time. Although I have a lot of fun, as you can tell with most of the shows,

so this was really really fascinating. I apologize if we got too much into the details. I just feel that this is a situation where we have on the record an Air Force official, while he was in the Air Force talking about UFO and giving information to people in the public, information that he at the time purported was real UFO documents and now admittedly says they were not. So he is essentially admitting to being involved with fraudulent activity while he was in

the Air Force. I think the Air Force needs to respond to this, and that's why at Open Mindset TV, I do have an open letter to the Air Force where I outline all of the evidence and of course citing Great Bishop's Project Beta, but also Greg Bishop's appearance on Coast to Coast with Richard Dody, where Richard Dody admits to all of this. You can hear him firsthand. So I just think that this case is really important for those reasons.

You will not find this elsewhere. So if the Air Force had any involvement, and essentially you can see the information I have when I made requests to the Air Force A, we're essentially saying no, we didn't. However, the documents they showed me demonstrated that Richard Dody was involved with false information being or given to somebody, including two senators. So you can hear this

in my report there and you can see it in the report. So the Air Force absolutely needs to make an official comment as to whether or not Richard Dody was under orders to do this bs that he was doing out there, and their only response to this whole thing has been to write bogus on one of the m J twelve documents. Okay, sure that documents bogus. But why is it that your employee, your you know, is the one who was involved with at first dispensing this information. I mean that was That's the

big question they have yet to answer. So hopefully we can get these sort of answers because it's important and we need to know if Great Bishop is in fact correct. You know that you know, all of this mythology that has been built in the UFO community that people cling to UH was all part of a disinformation UH project by the US Air Force in order to cover up projects

so the Russians wouldn't find that out? Is that the case? And you know, some people get afraid and I think upset because then they think that that kind of poopoo's the entire idea of UFOs. But no, I don't, not at all. We still have blue Book, we still have Roswell, we still have Rendershom, we still have a lot of great cases and situations that are credible. But it's important for understanding, for us to understand what isn't is not credible, so we can make sure that we're not following

chasing our tails or you know, going on these wild goose chases. Because certainly some people have built their careers around this mythology that came out during the Doughty years. So other than that, great Bishop, I mean, what a great guy, what a great researcher. I very much implore everyone to check out his podcast Radio Mysterio, and then also check out his book, which, as he talked about, you can find on Amazon or ascribed or

get the kindle version. So thank you very much to Great Bishop. A couple notes. I noted this earlier, but and I want to repeat this, not just because I'm speaking at these venues, but because you know, I'm very grateful to these guys to allow me to share my information and to share what Open Minds does with their audiences. So I want to make sure and do what I can to help them get audiences. But I want to

thank the Roswell Daily Record again. I'll be there this weekend. You can go just google the Roswell Daily Record and you'll see the Roswell Incident, which is information about their event that is going on this weekend in honor of the anniversary of the Roswell Incident, and I'll be speaking there. You'll also be able to go across down the street and to the UFO Museum and see people like Don Schmidt and Travis Walton and Stanton Friedman and Kathleen Martin and Avon Smith

and a number of other people. I'm forgetting many people, but they've got a lot of great speakers there too, so it's just a lot of fun and I love seeing everybody there, and of course it's always fun to hang out with my good buddy Lee Spiegel. Ben Hansen is going to be out there doing a SkyWatch like he just for the UFO Congress as well. And then I also want to thank Mofon because they're going to be having me speak, and be sure to schedule your travel and get out there if you can.

The Moufon Symposium. I'll be speaking about official government UFO agencies because as you know, I've interviewed a lot of the officials at work for these agencies, and not everybody knows the details about which ones exist currently and why they exist, because that's where the interesting story is. Many of these agencies exist today because of incredible UFO incidents that happened in their countries that caught the eye

of the public and or their government officials. In the case of France, the President was very interested in one case, and that's kind of what encouraged them to get into UFO research. So I'm really excited to share this information at the Moufon Symposium. Thank you guys for having me there. You could just look up Moufon Symposium and find more information about that. Plus I talked

about Richard Hoffman earlier, he's gonna be there. Oh, they just announced two Robert Hastings, who I had on the show recently, does the investigation or the work on UFO nukes. That's gonna be their keynote speaker. So that's an exciting one. Otherwise, they have a whole list of exciting speakers, and so you could go to moufon dot com or just google Moufon Symposium and find out more about that, or for all of these, you can go to the event page at Openminds dot tv and be able to get links

and information there as well. So it's going to be a fun and interesting summer. And then of course we are taking registrations for the UFO Congress right now, and let me give you another name of a speaker. Let's see who have I got confirmed. I've already told you guys, we're gonna have Ryan Sprague, We're gonna have Paul Stonehel We're also gonna have Well. We're gonna have Kathleen Martin and Avonne Smith. So Von Smith is there every year

to talk about Well too. She always does the panel, she helps us guide the panel for abductions at the conference, and she does the experiencer sessions during the day and night where people can come and share their experiences. She will also have her own talk. Now I'm not sure what even the topic's gonna be, but I'm excited about that. And Kathleen Martin is gonna be speaking about something she usually doesn't. She's move On's abduction expert, and of

course she's the niece of Betty Hill. However, she's gonna be talking about weirdness that goes on with different UFO cases. So this is a talk I don't know that she's ever done before, and it's gonna be something completely different. So that'll be a lot of fun. So there's a couple other names. We'll have more names up for you probably next week. So we're really looking forward to the U Congress this year. I think it's gonna be a

great lineup. I'm so excited by the people. We've got confirmations from so far, and we'll be letting you know more about that. But right now you can get the super early Bird special, and like I said, on July second, watch our social media, we'll send out information on how you can get an even bigger discount. So essentially the cheapest prices are. On July second, I will be out of town, so I'm gonna be hard to reach, so you're gonna have to watch our social media and so it'll

get you more information about that. So exciting stuff. Oh my gosh, and it's a long weekend. How cool is that. I hope you all have a wonderful July for us. I want to thank Caleb Hanks for the opening and close music. I want to thank the Dark Matters Network for playing or replaying our show, also the PSN network that replace our show. And I want to thank you the most the listeners for being there to listen every

week. It's so fun to be able to share this information with you, and it just means a lot that there's so many of you out there that enjoy hearing it. So we'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks. Have a great July fourth weekend. Audios mood Chattos, your emotionless soun