Grant Cameron, White House and UFOs

Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is a UFO news authority presenting evidence on the latest news regarding the UFO phenomena. Here's your host, Alejandro Roja, some trippy music man. Hello Alejandro, and you're listening to Open Minds Radio and I am once again honored to be in your presence and to share some wonderful UFO knowledge, debate and talk with you. We have a perfect show for although hopefully you're not just like politics out and

tired of all of this stuff. But we're talking politics tonight. We're talking most UFO and White House stuff and how politics is affected by UFOs and that sort of thing. So we're not going to be talking about Newton Mint and who whoever slept with or any of that kind of stuff that we're not gonna ask Jason if he's in an open relationship or anything like that. We're gonna just talk UFOs. So we have Grant Cameron on who runs a site presidentialufo

dot com. He's the best researcher when it comes to the White House and UFOs. He's one of the best UFO researchers out there period. He's very meticulous in getting data. And of course we've talked about him lately because he did a Freedom of Information request Act requests Freedom of Information Act request regarding the recent White House response to Steven Bassett's petition asking for the White House to fess

up that they have knowledge of communicating with extraterrestrials. And of course lately we find out Obama was on Mars, though we didn't get into that, but we just stuck to kind of that White House petition response and he got some details about, you know, what the correspondence was behind the creation of that

response. So we'll talk to him about how he got that information, what it was like, what he thinks of it, and then we'll talk about these petitions and everything overall and his perspective on you know, is this the right way to go to ask the White House to do anything? Or are there more effective ways we can approach this subject? And I know he's got a lot of great opinions on this, So this is going to be wonderful. It's all White House, it's all politics tonight. It's gonna be a

lot of fun. You're gonna love it. Trust me. I do want to mention that well, Grant Candraon's going to be at the International UFO Congress actually, which is great, and if you want to meet Grant, he's not speaking, so he's gonna have a lot of time to just hang out with people and you can buy them some drinks or have some dinner with them or whatever. So come on down to the UFO Congress this February twenty second to the twenty sixth at Fort mcdell Resort. And the deadline for the cheap

seats for the getting everything at a discount ends January twenty seventh. So if you have been procrastinating and you want it to come and you want to get in on the cheaper fee registration fee, then you're gonna want to register by January twenty seventh. That is like four days away, so you better get on the ball just right now. Go to Ufocongress dot com and register. I know, I think it was last week I gave you guys a little bit of time to register on air. Here. I'm not going to give

you time. Just go ahead and do it while we're talking this time. So go ahead to go to ufocongress dot com and register. It'll take you no time, he'll be set and then you'll be listening to the show thinking, no way, I'm going to meet these dudes. Awesome, because I know a good amount of you probably talk that way. Maybe Winner two. That's how Jason talks when he's not on the radio. Speaking of Jason McClellan, he is a guy who follows UFO news on a regular basis. And

I'm talking at least a few times a day. He'll he'll check his emails and look on the Internet and he'll boast several stories throughout the day, which is really cool. So he's following UFO news on a regular basis. He posted that open Minds dot tv and then he comes here weekly to tell us about the UFO news. Let's go over to Jason McClellan and let's talk some UFO news. Hello, Jason, let me make sure I have my radio voice on, Alejandro. Yeah, don't do your regular yo. No,

I've got my radio voice radio man. That's right. We'll greetings everyone, This is your Open Minds News Brief for Monday, January twenty third, twenty twelve. Start up with the UFO Sighting. Six UFOs were recently photographed in neighboring counties in England. The first of the two sightings occurred on the afternoon of January seventh in Kent. The witness Ernesta greeks Us snapped a photo of two UFOs. He didn't notice the mysterious objects at the time as he was

simply taking photos on his iPhone of a cherry picker outside his home. Greegsis only noticed the UFOs later when he was reviewing the photos. He described the UFOs in his photo to the Sun as the following, there are two white discs. I can't explain. I'm nowhere near a flight path. One is slightly fainter, as if it is further away or going at a different speed. The second sighting occurred on the morning of January thirteenth in Essex, as

witness Josh Cummings was driving to work. He explained to The Sun quote, I nearly crashed. I stopped to take this picture with my mobile like the UFOs were surfing the clouds. They were there for fifteen seconds, then vanished. As The Daily Mail reports, the sightings were made just thirty miles apart in an area now dub the country's UFO hotspot. All six of these UFOs

look strikingly similar, at least to me they do. Could the close proximity of the sightings, the quote remarkably similar UFOs as the Sun describes them, and the matching ages of the two witnesses all be a coincident. Both the witnesses happen to be twenty one years old. Of course, they could be a coincidence. It's possible that the same UFOs were seen by the two witnesses in different locations, and this happens frequently, but unfortunately a few sightings are

photographed by multiple witnesses. We wish we had more of that. The nearly id identical UFOs bear a striking resemblance, in my opinion, to reflections of light bulbs hanging in light fixtures. Both photos were reportedly shot through windows, which increases the probability that the strange objects were simply light reflections, and some suggests the possibility that the two witnesses may know each other, hinting at a

possible hoax, and I was speculating at this myself. Alejandro and I came across the website of one of the witnesses, so one witness was identified by the Sun as a car salesman, and I noticed the other witness on his

website listed that he owned a car sales business. So that paired with the matching ages, matching with the close proximity to the two, I thought there might be something fishy going on. However, I must state that the witness, Greek Sask, contacted me and wanted to share his side of the story. So he wanted me to know that absolutely he did not hoax the photo, and he said quote, I personally can't say whether it was a UFO

or not because I was too busy focusing on my camera. I am a UFO fanatic, and I wish I did see it with my own eyes, but at this point it remains a mystery. Now, if I read correctly, this was they were both shooting through glass. Correct, Yeah, see, because this really looks like to me the reflection of a lamp right on the window, and which happens quite a bit, and people typically say they didn't notice the UFO when they took the picture, and the reason is,

you know, we ignore reflections when we're looking through windows. It's something that's every day and our brains just kind of don't register it, and so we see it afterwards. That happens a lot when people are taking pictures. You ignore things that are mundane and every day, and then sometimes those things look weird in your pictures and that's why people say that. So that's what it

looks like to me. Yeah, in one of the witnesses, you know, he shot through glass, but he said it was in his car, you know, so it doesn't wouldn't necessarily fit with like a lamp in the house, but when you look at it, it could also be a street lamp, you know, a couple of street lamps. And sometimes glass distorts an image or reflection and makes it look like there are multiple objects when there

could have just been two rather than four in that particular picture. But we don't know, but it does look like the reflection of a light or a lamp in the window. Yeah, that's the hard part. But they were interesting pictures. Yeah, they are interesting, and and you know, I think, not to speak for you, the reason you want to look for that sort of thing is because what I am striving to find is photos that

are incontrovertible evidence. Because you want to take this to scientists, into people who are skeptical or mainstream people and say, look, you can't deny this is something weird. And so you know, unfortunately, because these look kind of similar to likes, these wouldn't be those kind of pictures. And I just want to ex playing because some people get mad, why are you talking down these pictures? And it's not that we're doing that, it's just we're

looking for really good stuff so we can blow this baby wide open. Yeah, that's that's true. I agree with you, and you know, I think it's valuable for everybody. You know, when we can identify what a particular particular photo is, if it's not something that's unidentifiable, you know, if we can point out what things are in photos that we routinely see in a lot of photos that are submitted to us, you know, we can

help people understand what they're looking at in particular photos. We can make people aware so they know that when they have a photo of that, that's not something that's mysterious. It's not what we're looking for. We saw weird lights in the sky recently. They turned out to be mundane things, and we had special mystery guests with us who our audience will find about some about sometime in the future. Yeah, that's right. We have really crazy lights and

then they turned out to be nothing special. We had a life changing experience. My friend changed your life. It did change my life. Eh, it was life changing for me. Yeah. Lay, well, we'll talk about that in the future. But that's a nice teaser for everybody. Yeah,

a little teaser, all right. In other news, well, it was just a couple of weeks ago that our guest from last week, Lee Spiegel of The Huffington Post reported that the Mutual UFO Network, also known as moufon, had already noticed an increase in UFO sidings reported in the first week of January compared to last year, and there was more activity reported by moufon

last week, but not related to UFO sidings. On Tuesday, January seventeenth, the Greeley Tribune reported that Moufon's international director, Clifford Cliff, will be stepping down from his post. Cliff, who has occupied the position since March twenty ten, is resigning because he wants to spend more time with his family and because he wants to, you know, spend more time being retired. And good for you, Cliff, That's what I want, is you.

It wouldn't be acceptable for me to do it. But he's of the comfortable age where I think it's acceptable society will allow him to. Yeah, he's joy retirement. He's getting tired. Yeah, you know, he wants to chill out. And you know, I don't think people understand these move On board members put in a lot of hours. Cliff is one of those guys, and people think, oh, you know, Moufon has all these resources. They don't. People are working and everything, people are busy. You

only have a few people out there who are really giving it. They're all and Cliff has been one of those people for many, many years. Right. And David McDonald, a Mofon board member who has served the organization as Assistant Director of Investigations, Star Team administrator and State director of Kentucky, will

be replacing Cliff as international director on February first. We will reportedly remain active with the organization as he oversees the archives, but the organization's structure change is that the only major activity recently reported by moufon on headquarters, currently based in

Greeley, Colorado, will be relocating to Ohio. Rogermarshaf Examiner dot Com explains quote McDonald will move MUFON International Headquarters to Cincinnati, Ohio, where he operates Global Airline Education Center and Campus. Being centrally located, the International Headquarters will be easily accessible to many more members. Cincinnati is within a six hour drive for sixty percent of the population of the United States end quote. Cliff is

asking everyone to have patients during this transition period. He recently stated, quote keep your eyes on the sky, and let's all welcome mister David McDonald as Moffon's new international director end quote. And I know we've mentioned repeatedly that Clifford Cliff will be speaking at the International UFO Congress, and just so you all know, nothing has changed with that. He's stepping down has not affected that.

And we are excited that Clifford Cliff will still be speaking at the International UFO Congress. And I believe he speaks on Wednesday, the twenty second of February. So come on out and see Cliff. Yeah, can meet Cliff. He's a really really if you haven't seen him talk or you haven't met him, he's a really nice guy and he doesn't shy away from any questions. He's just one of the and he's so funny He's a lot of fun

to watch talk. He's really funny. It's an odd description, but you know, Cliff is one of the few people that I would describe as real. He's a real person. He's very down to earth, he's very accessible, and you're right, he is so funny. I don't think I've ever had a moment with Cliff where he doesn't make me laugh. Yep, he's a joker. I like him. Yep, he's a good dude. All right. Here's something kind of interesting. Well, it might sound like the

plot of an awesome Hollywood movie. Russia wants to put a base on the Moon in real life. According to Russian Space Agency chief Space Agency Chief Vladimir Popupkin, a growing body of research supports the idea that humans can live for extended periods of time on or around the Moon, and, as space dot Com reports, Papupkin claims, Russia is currently in talks with NASA and the European Space Agency about constructing manned research colonies in orbit around the Moon and even

on the Moon. But here's where it's weird. Apparently, NASA denies these claims, so NASA spokesman JD. Harrington told Space dot Com quote. We believe Papupkin may be referring to the work of the International Space Exploration Coordination Group

the ISECG and its Global Exploration roadmap. Now, we talked probably months ago about this global Exploration roadmap of THEIRS and what it is is they developed a long range roadmap for space exploration that included a possible mand mission to an asteroid or even the Moon, but apparently no mention of a moon base. So we have this Russian scientist making these claims, and it certainly grabbed a lot of headlines. But NASA's saying I think he misinterpreted. What are they know?

I mean just because and these days some of the news that's come out is Russia is I don't know, if they're kind of throwing their weight around a little more because they have some weight to throw around since they're shuttling us around. But how they're they're thinking of separating their programs from NASA and doing their own stuff. So if that's the case, we don't know if they're

planning that or not. I think, right well, we don't. But but their response is to his claims saying that Russia is working with NASA and the European Agency of building these bases. Maybe it was supposed to be a secret. I think it was. I know, it seems kind of fishy that, you know, they'd come out and say this and then NASA goes, well, that's not true, Like dude, that was a secret. Oh. So, you know, it's been it's been a weird couple of

months with Russia in the base news. You know, they've had some trouble with their rockets and satellites crashing to Earth, flaming the United States for causing the satellites to crash to Earth, and now saying that they're working with NASA to put a base on the Moon. So it's weird, kind of interesting. Let's talk about another sighting here. A glowing UFO in Devon, England, was photographed by witness Gary McDermott on the night of Sunday, January twenty

second. McDermott reportedly stopped his car to take a picture of a low flying helicopter and that's when he noticed the UFO. According to the Telegraph, the UFO was a red disc shaped object with bright flashing lights. Mcgermott explained quote, it must have been a UFO and I can't believe I'm saying that because I don't believe in them usually and I'm always skeptical. But it was definitely not a normal aircraft. It was red the shape they say UFO aircraft is,

and has two bright lights coming out of it. End quote. The unknown object disappeared almost immediately after McDermott saw it, and the object in McDermott's photo, to me, at least it appears more cigar or blimp shaped than disc shaped, but it's hard to tell from the photograph, and while the object looks very much like a dirigible to me, the witness's description of how the UFO vanished before his eyes is certainly not consistent with the behavior of a

dirigible. According to the Telegraph, Devin police said they did not receive any UFO setting reports in the area that night, so the object remains unidentified. This is a weird picture, I mean, and you know, if since it's a light on this thing, or on one side, if it was a disc, maybe that's why that's only one side of it turned out in the picture, and that's why it looks more cigar shaped, right, So yeah, that's certainly possible. You know, it's difficult to make out the

shape from that photo. And a big deal is that he saw this thing, you know. Yeah, by the time he yeah, he saw it, took the picture, and then before he could tell his buddy, hey, look, it was gone. Yeah. So it's probably not a flare off of his camera, right, So yeah, kind of weird. I guess it could be a super fast blimp show, super fast extra terrestrial blimp. That's awesome. It could be yeah, maybe from the future. Who knows. Well, that one's pretty exciting. Yeah, cool bag. I

like it. Like I said, when I initially saw it, you know, I thought, oh, that's possibly a blimp. But yeah, the description again completely changes that. So and we talked about this before. I mean, you know, with sightings, witness testimony is you know, a large part of what we have to go on, you know, and you can either believe them or not, but you know, it's there. So that's that's one of the puzzle pieces we have to work with. Yep.

Well, Alejandro, that is all the news I have for today. Have many more stories on Openminds dot tv and you can always go there to check out the many stories we have there. And I am Jason McClellan, your Open Lines News correspondent, and you've just been briefed back to you, Alejandro.

Thank you, Jason. So some great news items there. Go check out McDermott's picture and also some other news that Open Minds has been making this week is around a Chilean general who is going to speak at the UFO Congress that we are just talking about. This is exciting because this is a guy

who is in charge of an official government UFO investigative organization. They essentially say their mission is to pursue solid UFO cases with adequate scientific data, but only if there is an indication that the safety of the aircraft might have been at risk. They call themselves SEPHA ce FAA, which stands for the Committee for the Study of Aerial Anomalous Phenomena. And they don't fit the acronym because it's

of course it's SPAN. That's the English version of it, so SEFA And if you go to their website then you can see the cases that they have investigated, and they have investigated quite a few that they think are really interesting. So this is really cool. He's a retired general. He did a lot of cool stuff. He was the Chilean Air attache in London and the

commander of the Chilean Air Force's Southern Region for a period of time. And then he founded this UFO group in nineteen ninety eight, which is an official branch of their version of the FAA. So this is a real organization interviewing UFOs, he wrote, General Bermudez is his name. He wrote a part of the UFOs General's Pilots and Government Officials Go on the Record, a book by Leslie Keane. Leslie Kane, excuse me, So this is really cool.

A general coming to talk about UFOs and an official UFO investigative project. So this is like, you know, a big deal. So that's why it is getting some press out there, which is really great. And again, if you want to catch this and catch the UFO Congress, be sure to register in the next couple of days so you can catch the discounted early bird prices. Speaking of government, what about the United States government? Those

bunch of jokers, they're dropping the ball. And we have the guy who is an expert on just and the details of how the US government is dropping the ball on the UFO matter, and that is Grant Cameron of PRESIDENTIALUFO dot Com. Let's get him on the line. I am very happy to speak once again to my good buddy Grant camera man who runs Presidential UFO dot Com, the authority on Presidents and UFO, is the perfect person to talk to about the recent White House UFO petitions. Welcome, well, Eli Chandra,

thanks for having me on. It's good to talk to you again. Yep, it's always fun. So yeah, I know we'll get into it and we always have a lot to talk about. And really these petitions. So it started off with Bassett, Stephen Bassett's petition more around the extraterrestrial aspect, asking for proof of extraterrest grills. Now, my first question for you. You know a lot of people criticize Bassett for centering it around asking for evidence

of communication with extraterrestrials and that that's more of a long shot. However, in his defense, do you really think that the White House would have taken

any UFO centric petition seriously, no matter what the verbage. Yeah, I agree in defense Steve Bassett, I was been friends with Steve Bassett for a number of years and when I first began the President's site, he had give me some advice and and was one of my probably my biggest supporter in the UFO community, pushing and he's quite a group of people that he pushed in and moved my site up the chain. In his defense, I think, Steve, there's there's a thing in the in the UFOL community now this aba

anything but alien. You know, we're changing the verbiage and and uh, it's sort of like we're embarrassed for the Rodney dangerfield of the scientific world, and we we we don't want to really say ET. I'll give Steve credit. Steve, there's no playing around. Steve just is what he thinks is true. He doesn't play any games. And basically he believes the Roswell story.

He believes basically, they've got the evidence, they got the bodies, they got the they've been in communication, they know and let's just get it out there. Let's quit playing around. Uh. And he's a lobbyist, he's he's going to push. So his effort using the ET thing was just what he basically thought. He believes the the the government knows what's going on,

that the White House can change it. And that's where the House petition was filed and and he did get a lot of flak from people who you know, really are sensitive about their reputations and really don't want to sort of offend anybody, so that I think that's where the backlash came. In terms of of the burbage. I don't really think it's really going to make any difference, and I I filed my foias and expecting exactly what I got.

I was not surprised have any of the replies that I got. And I've been through this a lot of times in articles I've written where I basically say that if you understand how government works, they're never going to deal with this

issue, right, whether it's Congress or whether it's the White House. And there's even a question as to whether the White House is really in the loop, because, as you know, Stephen, President Clinton on a number of occasions seemed to indicate that he tried to get to the answer and was unable to get the answer. So whether the White House would even know is not

gonna It's not going anywhere. So when I filed my FOAs, I sort of assume that the the the office that was handed in was the Office of Science and Technology Policy, which is the Office of the Science Director to the President, and they've been involved a number of times, back right back to the Jimmy Carter days the Office of Science and Technology Policy, And I just

want to clarify real quick. I mean, we did talk about this in previous shows, but you filed a Freedom of Information Act request to the White House Scientific Policy Department. You can clarify the department name, I forget, but you were asking for the drafts of the response to Batsett's extraterrestrial petition, and you got something. And we'll talk more details about that, but go

ahead. Yeah, well then let's just take that for an example. But my assumption was that the Office of the Science Advisor from my experience, and I know back when I filed in two thousand, I filed with the Clinton White House, the Office of Science and Technology Policy, and I got this sort of a gold mine. I got thousand pages of material dealing with the Rockefeller Initiative where Lawrence Rockefeller's billionaire philanthropist, decides he's going to President Clinton and

he's going to get President Clinton to disclose UFOs. So he makes his approach to the White House, gets caught off by this same office that's now dealing with his petition. The Office of Science and Technology Policy, and they basically deal with Rockefeller and this for three years. This is correspondence and a bunch of people interacting in briefings and stuff like this, and they're dealing with the UFO subject to try to keep Lawrence Rockefeller from going to the president. So

they're dealing with that level. So I knew then that because at that point Gibbons, who was running the office for Clinton, his science advisor, really didn't know anything about UFOs, really didn't want anything to do with it. And I assume that this is going to be the same thing that happened here. So I actually filed seven Free Information Act requests once Bastt filed the petition. Now, when Stephen first filed the petition, I thought it was the

kind of a goofy idea, they're not going to do anything. And actually, since the petition has come out, I've sort of actually started to believe that that disclosure will come. When it's time for disclosure to come. That you have to build it like a cake. You have to put the layers, and this is one of the layers that Steve put in there that at

first I really didn't sort of agree. But now I say that this is one of the key things that has been done in euthology, is this petition, and what it is done is when Steve filed the petition, he got the appropriate number of signatures, which is five thousand, and he got the White House to respond. And some people have come out and said it wasn't an official response. It was just this Phil Larsen guy giving his opinion on

UFOs, which is our e keys, which is absolutely not true. If it's on the White House website, it is the president and people see how the president works. There's nothing that happens around the president that isn't completely planned down to the last moment. So anything else on the pre on the White House website has got approval. It is not nobody gets to have their own little personal opinion on there. The President speaks for everybody. The buck stops

at the President's office, right, and he's responsible everything. So this actually when Steve fel the petition, I say, this is an official response on behalf of the US government on the subject of ets right well at the White from the White House, right, this is an official response. And the emails that you received through your FOYA proved that. I mean he didn't. He wrote it, sure, but he passed it on to the rest of

the group and got approval from his supervisors. I mean, he had to get the stamp of approval before this went out because, as it says, it is an official response. Yes, and that's what I haven't really firmly established yet. You can tell there's there's these two other people. The guy that wrote it was Phil Larson, and Phil Larson is nothing but a pr

guy. Yeah, he really doesn't know anything about anything. I mean, if you look go to the the White House website with the Office Science and Technology Policy, you'll see that every day he writes the story about something else and he's just putting the best spin on what the the the offices the Science Advisor is doing in terms of uh, you know, new technology and green energy and Mars and and he just writes the articles. He really didn't have

anything And that's why I went after the drafts. I I wanted to find out who gave approval, which I still don't know what the approval was. It was. We know that there was this uh the website that was there was we the people, and there was a girl that ran the website, and we know that Larsen went to these meetings and that they had they were given petitions and the Office of Science Technology Policy was given three petitions, not

just the EP petition. They were given three petitions to answer, and we know it came at that level. Now as to who UH decided, you know, what was going to happen and what was going to be put down that I wasn't able to establish. And I I had talked about this before. There's this B five exemption, which is sort of a situation where if you're giving advice to another department or to the President or to somebody that is now exempt on their Free Information Act for twelve years. So when I asked

for the drafts, basically all the drafts were withheld. And what I was trying to do because I got lucky once before I filed when I was in Los Angeles, I had filed with the Reagan Library for this speech on that Ronald Reagan had given it a nineteen eighty seven United Nations where we talked about the alien invasion, and I had asked for all the speech drafts and at that time they weren't using this B five exemption of pulling all this stuff out.

And what I found there was I was trying to find out how did the alien invasion thing get into the speech? Who put it in, what did people respond? And you could see all the interactions as all these drafts of the speech going to the CIA and the military and also of stuff, and you could see what people were reacting to it. And you could also see that at one point they had pulled the alien invasion remark out of the speech and Ronald Reagan, in his own handwriting it, asked to have it

put back any right. So that's what I was doing here, is I was trying to get the speech drafts to see what it had gone to the CI, had gone to NASA, did someone in CIA make a comment, did the President make a comment? Did the President see it? And all the speech drafts were withheld because although this was a short process, I mean, they only had a couple of dice to come up with something and tobmit

it and get it out. It looks like from the drafts that you had, Yeah, so it appears that he probably and because of the verbiage, which is not very deep, it's very you know, he could it's like someone could google and find the information that he found. It seems like he probably wrote it himself. But like you said, you don't know what other agencies might have had to put their stamp on it before it got approved.

What you're saying, yeah, well, we do know it went to NASA, went to these two guys in NASA and public relations ahead of public relations for NASA, and this other guy, and they they basically, by the looks of it, didn't make any comments. Now I'm filowing a Free Information Act request with NASA, hopefully on their end, to get their documentation that maybe they'll release something that the Science Advisor's office didn't release. But we know

it went there. We know it didn't go to the CIA, which was the key thing. I filed one Free Information Act request asking for Ronald Pandolphie because if you follow the Ronald Pandolphie story, and he's supposed to be the guy who runs the Weird Desk, or he did run the weird Desk with the UFO and the paranormal and the phenomenology files as they call him, that he was sort of the guy that during the Clinton administration when the Office the

Science Advisor knew that Rockefeller was coming to the White House. The first thing he did, because Gibbons didn't know what was going on with UFOs, is the asked for UFO briefing, and he went to the CIA for the UFO briefing and the job was given to Ronald Pandolphie, and Ronald Pandolphie stucked the job off on because he couldn't give an official briefing for the CIA because the

CIA isn't involved with UFO. So what he did was he gave it to Bruce mccabee to write a briefing for the Science Advisor, and then it becomes just some civilian off the street, which really doesn't mean anything. It's nothing official to provide this information for Gibbons. So what I'd done in this one is I asked for an FOI about all the contacts between Larson, who had

written the draft, and Ronald Pandolphie. And what I was trying to find out was Ronald Pandolphie involved in this thing because he was involved in ninety three. He went in talked to Gibbons and told Gibbons, don't deal with UFOs, stay away from it. And I wanted to see and this came back and said no, there was no contact. So it appears that the only all these Larson drafted it. It went to NASA, they just said yeah, okay, looks good to us. It went back and they they threw

this thing out and it was the end of the story. The other thing I established and I tried to because the petition was signed by twelve thousand plus people, it was a it was addressed to President Obama. So of course one of the fis I had was I want all the correspondents inside the Office the Science Advisor, which would indicate or show that that President Obama or anybody

inside the Executive Office acting on his behalf, actually saw the petition. And they came back no documentation, which as far as I can tell right now, indicates that the President nor anybody in the executive in his office ever saw the petition, which is pretty pretty damaging for their for their side and that.

But that's what I expected that would come back, is it was just something that you have all these issues and you you throw them down to different departments, and if it really gets serious and something happens, we'll I'll bring it to the President and say, well, you know we have to deal with this issue. But there's so many things going on, and I think people sort of forget that all the time that the president has got, you

know, fifty officials that report to him daily or every second day. Every one of those officials has got one hundred things, one hundred plates up in the air, and they're only going to bring to him only what's extremely important or what he has to that a lot of this stuff is dealt with, even though it's got the present's name on it, that other people are dealing

on his behalf right. And that's what I think happened here. And I was able to sort of prove it in an indirect method that the president never saw the petition even though twelve thousand people signed. And one of the things that I requested one of the petitions or the FIIs that I filed, Well, I missed it. It looks like, I think, why did you change it from five thousand to twenty five thousand. What I was hoping was

that there was going to be some correspondence. It would say these UFO petitions and these marijuana and all these crazy people, we've got to get rid of this. We've got to put the numbers up to twenty five thousand to stop

people from filing these stupid petitions. And unfortunately it's at a higher level than the Office of Science Science Advisor. So basically they didn't have any documentation because they didn't make that decision to change it from five thousand to twenty five thousand, which now means it used to be in democracy you could go to your representative, you go to the president and ask a question and get an answer.

And now you need twenty five thousand people just to get the president or the president's office to answer a complaint from the from the constituents, is why, and that's why I wrote the article. When I went through trying to see like Steve does his thing, Leslie Kane does her thing, I do my thing. Everybody's doing what they think is going to move the football down

the field and get it to the goal line. And so what I had done was filed by Foyas And then I looked at what has happened in ethology, what are the things that have really worked for us, And that's when I came across the idea that the president is probably not office we should be dealing with that we should be actually dealing at a congressional or a senatorial level, because all the major developments, the major things that have happened where we've

almost gotten some disclosure on UFOs have always been promoted by a senator or a congressman. And that's because they got political cover, which the president doesn't have well. And that goes back to my original question, which was, you know, the second one of the second petitions that came out, because I'm sure there's more and they'll continue to be more. It's a Dolan and Zabel one and it's very well written. I mean, it talks more about the

credible witnesses and so forth. Let's say this one had been part of the first, or let's say it would have gotten a number of signatures it needed. Do you think the White House even would have had much different, much more to say than what they said to the first one. You know, I think I think it's it's the old thing is it's a political game. This is an issue that, especially in any year where you're campaigning for re

election, this is something you do not want to touch, right. That's what basically what it comes down to is is you can see even in the article I wrote about the congressman. You'll get congressmen who will say, why doesn't the president do this? I'm just a congressman. He I mean, they're just like keep it away from me, like I mean, this is

I'd like to help you. Or you know when when Fox or when Stephen Greerr went up onto the hill and petitioned and went from offs to office, they were both told the same thing that we'd like to help you, but before we before we can help you or get to the White House motivated to do something, you have to get a huge number of people to give us political backing. And once you do that, then we'll jump in there and we'll do something. And it's just an issue that it doesn't matter how I

don't think it matters how you were. This is something the White House is not going to touch. And they they're doing the same with all the petitions. If you take a look at all the petitions, it's very bland and they're just sort of you know, it's fluffy answers that that don't really have

any meat to them. Yeah, it's just sort of like everybody thinks that they're they're part of democracy and and you're you're you're participating in in in what's going on, and you get to put your name on things, then everybody feels involved and stuff like that, and people don't realize it's a political game.

It's it's a game where in this uh in this upcoming election, it's sixty seven billion dollars to get everybody elected, and you have people who are paying thirty five eight hundred dollars for a seat to go to a fundraiser. And basically the UFO community has no money, it has, it has no political clout, it has, it has nobody. And basically what it comes down to is that people who are elected, whether it's at the senatorial level or the president level, you need huge amounts of money to get in.

And the money is it's basically like bribes. It's it's companies that are giving you money and they expect something in return. And the UFO community has no money, absolutely no money whatsoever and no political influence. And we we're just a sort of an annoyance. If we were able to generate a pile of money or show that we could we could cause some voting problems with them, then they would deal with it. But as it is right now, it's

just not an issue they really have to deal with. Plus it's an issue that has this secrecy aspect to it that if the President does know, it's just something that's classified and it's just something you don't want to go there, you don't want to open it because it's a classified issue. Well, and honestly too, this build has a credibility issue. I mean, it's a it's a grassroots type of thing, you know, it's not We don't have marketing or PR reps to help out in this situation, and I don't I

think the UFO community hasn't really established that this is incredible. I think we're getting better and better every day, but that this is a credible issue. There still isn't credibility. I think we're creeping up on it, but not quite there. Yeah, And I think we need pressure, which we've never exerted. As I've always said, the most people when they had this movement and the name escapes me back in the nineteen nineties when they were protesting outside

the White House, the most they ever had was nineteen people. So I mean, we just can't generate any sort of pressure. And as I've said for years, I've said, if you take a lot of all the political and social movements in the United States, every single one of them that are ugly issues like gay rights and AIDS and women's right to vote and all these kind of civil rights issues that the government really didn't want to issue the sames to issues that UFOs. It's like, get out of here with that stupid

issue. I don't want to deal that. It was mass pressure being exerted on the government that moved them to the point where they said, like, there's votes involved here, and then suddenly, oh, everybody's along with it. They just don't have that kind of that influence on the government. And it has so many different things. But as I said, at a senatorial level, a lot of times, it only takes one person to motivate this thing. And it almost happened. It happened when I was in Kansas City.

I was lecturing Kansas City in August, and when I was there, all over talking about the UFO sidings and these sightings and this and sightings that, and all the people could talk about was all these UFO sidings in Kansas City. And then about a month ago, they had this cattle mutilation in Kansas City right outside the airport, which is because of the nine to eleven thing, there's a lot of security around that airport, and this happened under

the eyes of this security. This mutilation took place, and they were going to now I don't know if they have they were getting a petition at the meeting, the last meeting they had, and they were going to try to get a congressman or a senator. And that's what I say has to be done, is that if you get something that's happening in a city where like this kind of things happens, that you go to the congressman, you say

we want action, we want you to do it. And the congressman is able with Stephen Schiff or any of these people where they go and they say, I really don't believe this is this is all nonsense, but these people want an answer, and I want an answer to this thing. And you'll see if you go back through history that in a lot of cases, only one person, Laura Johnstone was when Bush was elected. Before he was elected, he promised to disclose UFOs. She went to Stephen Ger lecture in San

Francisco. She heard Stephen Ger talking about this, you know, disclosure and the fact that Bush had made this promise and stuff. She was a political act of but she had been arrested outside the White House. She was just itching for trouble and she thought this is great. So she went on a hunger strike. So what did she do? She went and had her hunger strike on the steps of Barbara Boxer office. Barbara Boxer was writing her letters

and was contacting the Vice President's office. And that was one person's activity. And that's what I think we need is to sort of use these type of things where we don't need twelve thousand signatures, we don't need everybody online. We just have to be able to pressure a senator and then once we've got him making an official request, because they can make a official request, they don't need twelve thousand senators to get the president answer to something. They can

get an official answer by writing a letter. And they've got a lot of power and a lot of them will will do it if you've given that political

cover. And there's numerous examples back through history where we almost got the apple cart upset because one Congressman Shift as a prime example, because he was in New Mexico, he was under a lot of pressure for the Roswell crash, and he put the request in and he was sent like you and I and everybody else that's ever made a request to the Air Force of the military,

he was sent to the National Archives. Who went to the National Archives and they sort of laughed at him, and he suddenly realized he was being had and he got upset, and he got upset. He said, there's something going on here, and he started to push it and he used his power

to get this investigation done by the GOA. So that was one guy who had a couple of requests from constituents went and got upset and actually got the Air Force to go and spend millions of dollars to rein us to get the roswellt thing that happened very little, and you don't need these big things.

So that's what I say to people now, is that if you've got something happening locally, go to the congressman, go to the center and demand action and get them to write an official And I've even done in Canada, we have members of parliament and I actually had a member of parliament here write an official letter to the government and get responses from the government on Wilbur Smith, who ran the Canadian government UFO program, and I was pushing him and he

was, you know, doing this kind of stuff for me, and it even worked in my case. The problem was that Thennis guy became member of the government, and if he's in the government, then he suddenly it's his government and he's not going to do anything. And it ended for me.

But it did work for me, and I think it'll work for anybody who has a local sighting or something happens, especially like a mutilation, where there's damage and there's you can get action and then keep the pressure on the congressman and you can work officially through there. And there's a number of examples that

show that this is kind of an effective way of getting something done. Now to this point, especially with the Obama administration, I mean, do you have I mean, this is the one as far as presidents go, who at least passed Presidents Ray and Clinton, especially George Bush, like you just mentioned, have at least been based even with you. You addressed that you asked a great question of Dick Cheney. They've been They've at least had to

speak to the situation. Obama seems to have absolutely no interest in this build whatsoever. He showed no indication of having any interest. Would you agree with that? Yeah, exactly. He even when he was campaigning, as you know, he was asked a question about the alien thing. If you discover, if you've become president, find out that we've been visited by aliens, would you tell the people? And he, of course, the way a lot of politicians will deal with there's the way Obama deal with it. He

said, good politicians. He made a joke out of it. He said, well, it depends whether they're Republicans or Democrats. And he was asked a question at the at the when he was campaigning, this question about life and outer space, and he actually truthfully stated his position that, you know, there may be people coming from other planets here, but that's not my

interest. My interest and his interest is you know, the social policy and the education and the poor people and all this sort of stuff, and that's

his bottom line. And even during the campaign, if you remember back to the the the Texas uh uh uh Caucus or whatever they had down there, uh, that was when Bill Clinton wayde made this big speech at NASA in Houston and basically said this president uh or president or Obama is not a friend of space, that Hillary is the person who's interested in space and you should

vote for for Hillary. So Bill was saying directly at that point that he was not even interested in space, and you can see that right now.

Basically NASA has basically been shut down and he wants it to go private, and it's just that it's not his his his interest and it's so hard to get to the president to get an issue to the president that if a president really doesn't want to deal with it, there's not much you're going to deal with it because the White House Press Corps is not going to and asked the

question unless something happens, because they're all afraid of their jobs. You don't want your White House Press passed pulled because you asked some stupid UFO question. And you can see now in terms of the Republicans, we have an issue where nobody's asked the Republicans about it. We haven't even requested, So why would the president deal with it if nobody's asking the question? And that's basically

what comes down to. If you go to my presidential UFO website, you'll see I've got the big UFO request from the from the Clintonston Library, and that was the big request on UFO's flying saucers, you know, the regular request, and it came back with nine hundred pages. And in there, if you take a look at those nine hundred pages, how many letters written to Bill Clinton about UFOs, like, mister President, do something? There

basically are none. And that's over eight years of presidency. That we sort of think that we're we're doing big things and we're putting pressure and basically you go and look and nobody's asking questions. Nobody's putting pressure on them, nobody's asking the Republicans, We're we're just sort of sitting back and it becomes I

think one of our big problems is it's to a lot of us. To you and I are a couple of researchers, we're kind of fanatical and we spend all our time doing it, and all our relatives and friends think we're a little bit weird, like, so what's the big deal and stuff like that. But the vast majority of the UFO community, it's like an interesting it's like ghosts or life after death. It's like we'd like to read the books. And then you have the conference and everybody's like, oh, well

you can go to the holiday. We'll go to the conference and listen to these interesting speakers and at the end of this, you know, you hear the speaker, and nobody goes on to the next one. Nobody goes and deals with that speaker, talks to the speaker. They just go on to the next one. And it's like an entertainment factor to a lot of people who are following the UFO community. We don't have that serious, hardcore thing because I think a lot of it has got to do it. It's not

an issue of money. It's like if we're all losing our jobs because of it, well then people would get upset, or if there was people getting killed or or whatever. There's just nothing to really motivate it except sort of like a curiosity and interest in this in this type of thing, and that's not something that's going to motivate somebody to go and uh, you know, stat outside the White House for three weeks or petition or do whatever, or

it doesn't play for politics. Politics is about, and especially in the United States, it's about things that are related to money. Where the most capitalistic country, I think probably in the world it's got to relate to the economy, creating jobs or or hampering jobs, something like that around the economy. And this doesn't have anything to do with the economy. If they do pulling, it's basically comes down to and I've said this numerous times, it comes

down to getting elected. It's got nothing to do with solving issues. Got to do with how do you get elected? So you you you pull and the ten talk issues. That's what you're going to deal with. That's what you're gonna be. I'm gonna be the messiah. I've got to save you from what the tech you read those ten top things, the UFOs wouldn't be in the top two hundred, right, you pold there would be, there

would be nothing there. And so that that's where they You can't really blame them for not dealing with it, because why would you bring up an issue that really nobody really is questioning you about or or concerned about. They basically are at things that get them elected. And a lot of the things one has actually worked in our behalf, which sort of shows you how this game

is played in the nineteen In nineteen, Clinton was dealing with Rockefeller. From ninety three to ninety ninety six, and he actually met with Rockefeller in August of nineteen ninety five when when they went to the Rockefeller ranch. Now a lot of people think, well, he went to the Rockefeller ranch and there was this UFO thing. People don't. If you look exactly what happened behind the scenes, you'll see how this actually took place. And that was that

Dick Morris. Clinton was in a lot of trouble in ninety five for re election and looked like he wasn't going to get reelected, and he brought on Dick Morris to as his advisor. And these are these campaign guys who are the guys who actually get them elected, and they read the polls and they figure out how to do it. And what Dick Morris came up with is, you've got to go and you've got to spend your holiday in the wilderness.

Clinton used to spend his holiday at the Hamptons with all the rich guys, and they'd go at golfing and they'd go to cocktail parties and have a good old time at you with all the rich people at the Hamptons. And he said, no, you've got to go to the wilderness because Dick Morrison determined in nineteen ninety six elections the swing voters. You gonna have your people who vote vote Republican all the time, people who were vote Democrat all the

time. Everybody wants the swing voters, so you pull the swing voters. What does the swing voters want? And in nineteen ninety five, Dick Morris to determine the swing voters wanted somebody who was into They were into technology, they were into the outdoors, they were into fishing and camping and skiing and

all this kind of stuff. So Clinton went to the Rockefeller Wrench. Not because he wanted to go to the Rockefeller Wrench, because in nineteen ninety six elections he was trying to get the swing voters, so he had to go camping. He hated it. It's well known that he he hated being really that's because he had to go. And he made the joke about doing the whitewater rafting, and you know, he wanted to be with it with the buddies in the Hamptons, but he had to go to the Rockefeller Ranch.

And that was because Dick Morris had had told him that you need the swing voters. And that's why he went there to to the wilderness. He had no intention of going to to Wyoming. That was the last place he wanted to go and spend his holidays. So this is what people have to realize what's going on behind the scenes. Is the day that ethology can get them some votes or cause him some trouble, that's the day they're going to deal

with it. But as long as it's it's it doesn't really matter. They've got so many things that they're that they're going to get them votes that this is not something you were going to spend any time on whatsoever. Well, in fact, and you know from from Gustich, who uh was a guy who had you know, a major UFO sighting, not just a sighting, he had a encounter. He was like two hundred yards away from this thing, sitting right right there, he and a couple of witnesses, and he

gets cornered in the Democratic debate about this thing. And I followed the polls, or not the polls, but the newspaper articles after he admitted that he'd seen this UFO and there was hundreds of articles written about him, you know, trying to get Cheney impeached and all different issues and every single one of

them sort of referred to him as this crazy UFO guy. And so if he backed the way, and if Caucinich, who's a pretty hardcore guy, Danny Sheen had run his policy on his one campaign, he was a pretty guy guy who's open and is not afraid to say things. If he backs off the UFO issue, then you can tell how toxic this thing is. And everybody can just take a look if you're a politician, look at what happened to Kucinach and think is this going to help me get reelected or is

it not? And people always think that it's a game of he wants to help us, He's the Messiah, He's going to come and solve all our problems. It's not. These guys have huge egos. They want to get elected and they want to get re elected, and you need votes, and that's what it all comes down to, is getting re elected. And you can't solve anything unless you get re elected. And you can see all over

the world these these sort of crazy leaders who hang on the power. It's it's it's sort of talks to that they've got to have the power, and it's all about votes. It's all about getting elected. And I say that it's off that. Yeah, we're in trouble if we start thinking there's something else going on in politics, we're off track as to what we have to do to actually get the UFO issue out there front and center or solved or

disclosure or whatever you want to call it. Right now, we're doing some things that really don't mesh with what's actually what's actually going on behind the scenes. Right got to be more savvy. And that's why I like what you do. And I like hitting on the history because a lot of people forget about the history because history can teach us a lot, and the history in

this field has taught us. I think over and over again what you just said, because there have been these politicians in some cases who have been very serious. You mentioned earlier Congressman Shift, but you also have Barry Goldwater, you have Gerald Ford, you have Clinton himself, you have the un These were big projects. These were big happenings where people were pushing hard. We want answers on UFOs, and it shows a political route no matter what kind

of strength or people you have behind it has not been effective. Yeah, for the Ford is a prime example. Because Ford do. People might not know that jail Heinig was in his constituency and he had to sing with the with the fightings in Michigan, which was his this area, and he was getting you know, questions from constituents and stuff like that, and then Heine came up made the stupid statement about the swamp gas and then he was infuriated.

Yeah, that Congressional one one. He's sort of hearing and then what hearing? And then he's sixty eight one when other congressmen realized they've been we're taking for a ride, and that went. But then you see what happens once he gets to the White House. He becomes the president. His political cover is gone. He's no longer just a you know, a congressman who's fighting for his constituents. Suddenly he's the president. It's his cover up in

his UFO thing, and suddenly he goes silent. He doesn't do anything, the same as Jimmy Carter. Jman Carter was very vocal about UFOs before he got into the presidency. He was running and he was, you know, he's had short sleeves, didn't wear the tie. He was going to be, you know, with the outsider from outside of Washington and stuff like that, and he was it was an issue that he was with the people. We'd like some answer to this, I've seen something. I'd like some answers.

As soon as he gets in, it's like dead sounds because his political cover is gone. And at these local levels. There's a lot of examples.

Even though the bizarre Lazarre thing, which I discovered when I wrote the Area fifty one article, is that Bob Lazar had a congressman who was backing him, who really George Knapp was using to because there was so much dispute about the Palace s W two form and all this kind of stuff, and he was writing these official letters, getting official answers as to who this guy

was, his tax records and all this sort of stuff. And even in these bizarre cases, people don't know that there was congressmen who were involved, that he wrote a letter on behalf of Lazarre when he went to court in

nineteen ninety one or whatever it was on this pandering chart. So you can get these people on your side, and they can do a lot of damage because they can write official letters and you can't slip off a congressman or a senator, and a lot of them will do it because they actually are closer

to the vote. They know that your vote counts and that you can you can cause some trouble, and they're trying to show that their answering constituents demands and stuff like that, writing letters on everyhal They do this on all sorts of subjects, and we should so you're saying, but just to clarify there that Bob Lazar had a congressman that was sympathetic to his cause, and the cause being that Bob Lazar said he worked at Area fifty one and worked on

back engineered daily in technology. This congressman believed that, and so this congressman, because of that, helped him when Lazarre had some legal problems. Okay, just of the bit of clarification. I think it was like believed it. It was that that I think George Knapp, but George and Paston really explained this whole thing. But it was James Bill Bray who was the guy, and I think Napp was using Bill Bray to get answers, like we need some answers on this WT form. I know that was one of the

things that we're looking at. Was was trying to get this this established? Was this an official document like with this withy Babar had at W two that said it was from the Navy right department of the Navy, and he said,

this proves that I did work at Area fifty one. So so Napp was using this kind of stuff Turner, he was trying to track down all this official material, trying to get some official acknowledgment that he'd worked at Les Alamos, or he'd worked at Area fifty one, that he was getting paid, this sort of stuff, and he was going through Bill Bray, and Bill Bray as as any congressman would have to do, was writing letters on his behalf, which are official letters, Whereas if Knapp were to write to

the Defense Environment, they would just sort of, you know, like who cares, yeah letter. A congressman or a senator has a lot of a lot of clout in terms of they have to answer his letter. They can't just sluff him off. And that's what happened with with with Stephen Schiff is that they sluffed him off to the And if you read and I've written an article, I've never published it yet, but I wrote an article really details

what happened with Ship. And he was furious when they sent him to the to the National Archives, and he realized that they were just running them around. And then he went back to Clinton's Secretary of Defense and then the Secretary Defense wouldn't answer his letters. He got curious, and that's he had the power for whatever. He had his power to authorize this investigation by the Accounting Office, and it was just his position. He said, okay, you

want to play that game. That's when the the Accounting Office came in and forced them to rein investigate Rosweld. And it was because Shift got upset because he was being he was being jerked around by by the Department of Defense and sent to all sorts of places and was realized he was getting the run around. And of course the Air Force or the report that Shift forced said there was nothing to roswold. Yeah, they still play that game, but you

can get close. In fact, you got close twice in the Roswell thing. People. Some people don't realize there was too Roswell reports. It was the first one that came out and that was forced by There was actually a number of forts. There was the Shift report, which was different than the Air Force report. The Air Force report was forced by Rockefeller, and Rockefeller had gone in and said they basically said, well, you know, we

really can't do anything and stuff. And he said, you know, I'm thinking of putting a major ad in all the major newspapers in the United States asking for disclosure. They said, okay, hang on, hang on, We'll do And it was they requested like the Rockefeller was asking for the amnesty, which was granted by the Secretary of the Air Force in ninety three. They gave amnesty to all the Roswell people. That was Rockefeller pushed that,

and Rockefeller won of the investigations. So there was the Air Force and then there was the GOA report, which is two separate. But when the Air Force report came back that Rockefeller had forced through the Science Advisor, it went back and Clinton saw it. And then Clinton goes to Belfast, Northern Ireland to light the Christmas tree in November of nineteen ninety five, and that's when

he stands up and he challenges the report indirectly. He says, if there was no crash at Rosweld, but if the Air Force did recover bodies, they didn't tell me about it, and I want to know, and I went off to the speeches and that I want to know part wasn't in the original speech. Wow, Clinton had lived that when he gave the speech,

he said, I want to know. And so in nineteen ninety seven, the Air Force does a second Roswell report, and nobody's ever explained until you you see this speech in nineteen ninety five, the Clinton gave as to why did they do a second report? The second report they come out with the bodies, the stupid story about the six foot wooden dummies that were dropped in

nineteen fifty three and the time shifting, all this nonsense. And that was the Air Force getting stuck by Clinton to say, I don't believe you. You didn't explain the bodies because there's no report of the bodies in the first Roswell report. They don't talk about the people seeing the little alien bodies.

So the Air Force has to go back and explain the bodies. So they go back and do a second Roswell report, and they put it back on the President's desk and say here's your answer to the air to the bodies, and Clinton and is now it's his Air Force so he's stuck, he can't do anything, and he just gives up. And there are actually two reports and this is one is forced forced by by Shift and the second one is

forced by Clinton because Clinton got upset right first row report. So this is the way it works, is that sometimes I think disclosure may come from somebody's just pushing a congressman, or something happens and some president or some congressman just gets upset and decides, I'm gonna run with this thing. Now. To clarify, you've seen it the number of times in the past that this has

happened. In fact, I say that if you take a look through uiful history and take a look at all the highlights of uoful history where things have happened, it's always happened that way. And that's a pattern that I think we should take a look at, we should follow, and we should try to put pressure in. The Kansas City thing was a prime thing, or

the Phoenix Lights thing. If people in Phoenix had really gotten on top of that Phoenix Light thing and had gone to the congressman and put pressure on him, something would have happened. Now the congress these councilwoman had gone to McCain and McCain had gone and asked questions about the Phoenix Light thing. So but it just gave up. Nobody there was enough pressure on John McCain to keep

this thing going. But there there If the Phoenix people had gotten this thing and really put pressure on it would have a Congressman would have had some footing to to put some pressure on, to put some pressure to get a response that just bluffs everybody off, Like has been the result of all of these though, I mean even Chiff and all of these kind of just like what what Bassett received, all of these kind of fluff answers that come back.

But but the Shift thing was an official thing. They spent millions of dollars on this study, right, and they had to scramble to walk their way out of the thing. The I say, when when it comes to the Phil Larson response from the White House, this is the worst, absolute worst

response we've ever gotten. This is pre ninety forty seven. If you take a look at the the Group of report, they basically said, okay, there's you know, whatever percentage twenty two percent unknowns, but we don't believe it's national security, and we don't believe this there was a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel that there was something to it. We just don't believe it's national security and there's not enough evidence or whatever. This

thing says, there's nothing. There's absolutely nothing to the subject at all. But said in Martin's defense though he's addressing specifically extraterrestrial intelligence, that's people's interpretation. That's people's interpretation is I don't know if Larsen would have read it that way, that we're going to play by the word and say, okay,

this is eke. I think it was just like in fact he said if you remember the fa where he says we got stuck, but I don't think he uses the word ekey, we got stuck with the alien something, right, Kevin, What the wording was he he's writing to somebody and he said, we got tagged having to answer this, and he uses alien something, but he doesn't use the word et. So I think that's an interpretation people have that if we changed the word eke, he might have answered it.

There was no chance that they're going to touch it. They know it's UFO is a cup. Well, I think they would have fucked it off. But they wouldn't have addressed et it would have been a different answer. I think it would have been really interesting to see what that answer would have been.

But if it was worded properly, like for instance, the Zabel Dolean one or whatever one, because Robert Solace had written one also which wasn't was addressing the phenomena of the unknowns rather than the extraterrestrials, and so it might have been a different answer because this is certainly extra treastural, and it gives

him an easier answer because right now, astrobiology is a big deal. I mean, people in the astrobiology is in the news every day about this possible planet having life from Mars possibly having life and the Moon, and we're closer to this, so there's an official kind of stance or mainstream stand out there that is discussed on a regular basis. Okay, But the difference between that is and he Larsen was with Mars project, he had a Mars background.

And I bring this up is that if if you're talking about you know, some planet out you know, wherever, it's no threat, everybody can hypothesize that there's gonna be some sort of ety life as long as it doesn't look like ours because evolution doesn't allow to exactly species to be the same. So you've got planets out there, you've got something going on on Mars. Whatever.

That's not a threat. It's when it's here. And that's where I said that that Larsen, despite the fact he had really no input in the whole thing, is not going to say yes, even if it's UFOs, yes, we I think we should take a look at upo's and properly investigate

incidents involving planes. I think what he would have said is probably something like people misidentify things all the time, or something fluffy like that, and maybe even thrown in the goofy thing with the lady from Setie I can't remember her name, who says, oh, you know, I thought I saw you upon it turned out to be the moon. Yeah, I mean, I see, but there's a threat there. In terms of vested interest, you got people have to remember that the Office of the Science Advisor has got a

bunch of vested interest. In one is, you just sent a probe to Mars which costs two and a half billion dollars. It's one dollars over budget to drill a hole in a rock looking for some sort of evidence that there's some sort of micro evidence of life. And so if you suddenly say, say say they would answer to the DOLE in petition say okay, yes we should properly, we should properly reinvestigate UFO sightings here on Earth and give it

a proper scientific investigation. Who's going to spend two and a half billion dollars for another probe if you just suddenly admit that, yes, maybe there is some evidence that they're already here. Well, but I don't think that two things are necessarily connected, because of course, every a lot of people feel

that. Not everybody's invested in the extraterrestrial hypotheses, even people who are asking for people to look into the UFO phenomena, Nick Pope for example, Or there's a lot of people, the UAP people, maybe you could call them, who believe there could be other answers Jacques Vallet, even j Allen Heinek himself that there could be other answers other than extraterrestrill So one doesn't necessarily mean the other. Okay, but I still think there's that for Larsen to be

a Mars guy. But I see your point I mean that he said that we should be looking here on Earth. It gets very hard for you if if you go out in front of Congress and you want another two and a half billion dollars to send another probe to drill holes in Mars, They're going to say, well, you're looking here on earth. I mean, why don't you just you know, it's a lot cheaper. Why don't we just spend this. Why should we give you two and a half billion dollars.

There's a lot of best at interest, a lot of jobs at stake in keeping this thing suppressed that that mar I mean NASA. I mean if if it were actually admitted that that you had disclosure and there was UFOs, I mean, what happens to NASA? Like, who's gonna spend billions of dollars

on NASA? When suddenly it becomes apparent that they're already here and like what do we spend This is like a you know, you get to John leear argument that this is like some big, huge pr thing to you know, to scam people, and everybody's gonna suddenly get that idea like what we've been taken taken for a ride here that they've already's been lying to us, and

the NASA thing just falls apart, and it's in trouble already. And that's one of the reasons why in the Carter administration and now again NASA wouldn't touch this thing with a ten foot pole, because, I mean, their budget's been cut. This is not their their their thing to do. Their thing is to go and explore outer space, and it's it's nobody's real issue.

And then you get to the issue with with that. John Alexander brings up, which I agree with, is people who are pushing for congressional studies and all this kind of stuff. He always says, be careful what you wish for. You may get it. The Congress may take this issue, take a look at it, and there's so much power behind the scenes that they're going to come out with another blue book thing and say this is an absolute

pile of nonsense. Then where do you go mm hmm that that there's there's these forces behind that will even if you can get it, and you need, you know, piles of Congressmen and senators to sort of buy onto this

thing because you need both houses to get to get anything through. Uh, you're gonna have a lot of people who are gonna are gonna fight this, and they have a lot of power, and we in the UFO community, which I think is the bottom line, is we have no power, we have no money, and we have no influence and we we are just basically a bunch of a couple of researchers and everybody else just it's a hobby.

Yeah, And that's not something that the government, especially when they don't get a single request or a letter on it, that they should suddenly change gears and forget about the economy, forget about the situation in the Middle East or whatever, and suddenly go after this issue that nobody's ever written on. This is I mean, I always say you have to take a look at how they think. That's what I always do is I try to see why are they covering this thing up? What if I was on the other side.

And I've said numerous times that if I was on the other side and I had the issue, I'd probably do exactly the same thing they would do. I would be covering Oh yeah. Unfortunately I'm not on their side, so I'm playing the other game. But if I was on their side, I could see, like, oh, man, but you know, I always

think of putting myself in their shoes too. As far as if I was Obama's PR guy, even being someone who's sympathetic to the UFO phenomena, I would be like, you know what, Hey, this isn't the right time to touch this. Let's if we even want to go there, this isn't the time to do it. Yeah, Which is a prime example, because I wrote I've written a number of articles which I haven't really published. I sort of get and I get interested in researching the articles and finding stuff.

I was going to do an article in Podesta. Somebody asked me about what's Podesta? And if you take a look at Podesta, Podesta was known as the xpells guy in the Clinton White House. He's extremely interested in the subject and he used to He actually phoned Area fifty one to see if there was something going on Area fifty one, and he was really interested. When he got out of power and Clinton got out and Bush came in, that's when he made this speech and said, I think we should get to the bottom

of this thing. And everybody looked at it and said, well, this is the messiah that you know what he Obama gets in. Podesta's going to go and talk to Obama. We're going to have disclosure and it's all going to open up, and people have to realize how power politics works. That now Podesta is on the other side. He's now back in power and he is not the press president, and he cannot come out and say, yes, I think we're getting messed around. UFOs are for real, and I

think Obama should do something. He can't speak on behalf of the president once he's in power. Is what happened when I had my local representative write letters to the game government on my behalf. Once he got into power, he wouldn't do anything for me. And that's the problem, is that Podesta's power

in power now and he can't speak on behalf of the president. He doesn't want to put the president in the position where the president has to answer the question because it's going to make the president look bad and he's going to get the blame for Plus, he's also working for Hillary. So you've got him working for the State Department one day a week and Obama going out. But he potentially that Hillary's going to come back in and run and could win and

end up in the presidency. For eight more years. This is a type of thing that if Hillary gets in, I would say my personal impression is Podesta will do nothing until there's a Republican back in again. Because once you're in power, you can't speak be after the president. You don't want to put the president in a bad light. Everybody's you know, or your second

term because there's always the second term wildness. Second term president can especially towards you, and do whatever the hell they want if they if they have if they have thee if they don't want mine about hurting their party though, because of course they don't want to hurt their party. Well, in Obama's case, I disagree. I used to think that too. In Obama's case, Obama is so determined to get re elected. He's running against his own party.

He's gonna run against the do nothing Congress, and that he's running against the Democrats. He's gonna run against his own people. And there was an example, there's this Keystone XL pipeline coming from Canada. Did Obama put it off? He didn't say yes, he didn't say no. He just said, we're gonna put it off because we got we got the answers, We're gonna put off until last year the election. And one of the people I'd always here, somebody said, this shows that Obama had a chance to create

ten thousand jobs and instead he chose to save one his own. He didn't say yes, he didn't say no. He just put off the lot after the election because he doesn't want to offend anybody before the election. If he says yes, he's gonna offend the one group. He just says no for the pipeline, he's gonna offend the other group, is gonna lose votes this way, he just puts it off and he can play mister politician. He's

a prime politician. Yeah, he's everybody. Well more than that too, because he's got a he he's upset a lot of people about being weak and at least this he can put his foot down and seem strong. And I agree it's that I was going to bring this up earlier to prime politics. It's a great example of a politically motivated move and how everything's politically motivated,

especially right now. Oh exactly. Yeah. People have to realize the amount of money that's in there, and if you if you put up thirty five dollars to go to a campaign dinner, get your picture taken with the president, you expect something to return. Nobody's going to convince me that those people are doing it for nothing, right, so much money involved in the background, and anybody who's in ufology, who's actually researched and tried to get research

funds or run websites, knows there is no money in euthology. There's nothing. Yeah, And so I agree with you. I think it comes down to a lot of in this build, putting the horse before or putting the car before the horse. I mean, going to the politicians and going to these places without having that energy or that strength or backing, and so just falling flat. It's like, you know, coming to the table with nothing.

And that's the problem that keeps happening. And I think, you know, I think people get frustrated because it's been decades and it's slow going. But kind of like what you've said here, it's harder for this particular issue than practically any other because than many others because you have you have, there's no money behind it. There's no jobs or political nothing like that going on. Plus so there's no motivation on either side. And if there is,

this secrecy. You have a lot of people in power who benefit from nothing happening in this field. So I think what happens when I have a hope and I want to hear your opinion on this is that of course, there's a lot of polls that show a lot of people are interested. And even though UFO are mostly entertainment, feel like you're talking about it's a very popular thing to the public, so entertainment can play to it. News, as you know, covers this subject a lot. You know, TV shows are

really popular right now on the subject. But I don't think that's a bad thing because I think doing that, hitting the news, hitting the mainstream television, that at least starts to garner some sort of population that feel more and more comfortable to talk about it. And you have to grow and foster that huge population before you can do anything. Yeah, exactly. I mean,

as I said, it's like building the layers of a cake. Sometimes you look at something and you say, when I first saw the mass competition, I thought, wow, this is kind of goofy. I mean, knowing the White House, what what was going to happen? I sort of thought, well, this is kind of crazy, or people were down on the Disclosure project or extra politics and stuff like this. I think these things are

all things that we need. People are now if you talk to even somebody on the street about disclosure UFO disclosure, they sort of know what it is, or even exopolitics. These things are sort of we're sort of educating the people where they all the foundations are being laid and it's it's there's a guy who wrote a book on invention that nothing really just gets invented. It's built one on top of another. Like you know, Facebook is built on the

Internet. The Internet was built on ARPA Neet and that was built on primitive computers that you get building and people build on it. And I think all these things have to come in place and when the time is right, then it will happen. The thing that I think, as I said, we're missing, we're missing the money and the other thing we're missing is the real

hard sort of the pressure politics. People who are ready to go out there and really put pressure on And the prime example was in two thousand and four during the presidential campaign Wesley Clark. General Wesley Clark's a four star general who had a unified command is in New Hampshire. He's campaign in New Hampshire and he's asked by j Buckley, the astronaut. He says, what's your vision

of space? And he starts about this thing about, oh, I believe we can go past the speed of light up argued with cyssists and this sort of stuff, and I'm going, wow, I mean this guy's yeah. At the time, he's leading the Democrats. And then I got a an email that said he's been briefed on crash flying saucers. So I went to all the MUFON directors state directors I could find, and we knew his campaign, we knew he was going, and I asked these MUFON state directors,

he's there, he's having these townhouses and stuff. Somebody asked him the question. I asked, Cheeney, have you ever been briefed on the subject of UFOSS? And I got MUFON state directors coming back to me. Three of them at least said I don't want to do that. I don't want to embarrass him. And I said, you don't want to embarrass him. We

don't want embarrass him. If we don't want to ask the question, why would you expect the media or anybody else to go out and solve this for us, this is our problem to solve, This is our thing that Yeah, and we just don't have the guts. When Laura Johnstone went and went on this forty two day hunger strike to get Bush to come and clean on UFOs, she was ridiculed. If you go back to UFO updates and you look at the postings, she was ridiculed. She's crazy. What is with

this woman? She's nuts, She's making us all look bad. She was a real radical who was ready to give her life. And I asked her when I went to California when it ended. I said, Laura, why did you quit the UFO? Why did you quit your hunger strike after forty two days? She said, I just decided the UFO community didn't care, and if they don't give a damn, why should I die for them? Yeah. People are so cynical in this build. I mean, even with

these petitions, people unfortunately don't get out and do something. They don't even sign these petitions. How tough at it is it to click some links exactly, even if the websitees having problems, come back to the website daily if you have to just to click a couple of clicks, big deal. But to protesting, if you take a look at the New York protests or off here they call them change protests. These people didn't even know what they're protesting.

They had no but they what they were doing. They knew how to get this thing. They could get the twenty five thousand people to a protest and they know what they're doing. And I think we have you know, we have to learn from history and we have to learn from protest movements what to do. There's there's a pattern. People follow a pattern, and if we want to do something, we've got to learn how to do it properly. Right, well, you know what, we're pretty much out of time,

and I want to thank you again. This is extremely interesting. I think it's very insightful. Hopefully it inspires people to to be a little more savvy about this and to think a little harder, because all of this is more complicated than it looks, and we have to look to, like you said, these successful programs to see how that works, and that we need to amass this credibility. We've got to bring something to the table. You

can't just you know, be a mouse. You got to be an elephant, you know, to come charging through the door, and we're just there. I mean, you've you've you've done as much as anybody you've well, and I think this kind of stuff is working. We're we're amassing an audience. And that's where I love about the Huffington Posts having us, you know, right, and and luckily there are, like you said, a few a handful of great researchers such as yourself, who give us a lot of

fodder, give a lot of credible information to get out there. So yeah, you know, you're as I always say, you're one of my favorites in your work is so important and great. Thank you so much for being on the show again. And I want to tell everybody presidential UFO dot com. And I guess I should ask you is there something coming up? Is there something you want to plug? No, I'll be in Phoenix. I'm

seeing Phoenix. That's my big thing. I'm coming to the contracting. I'm going to look at the Goldwater papers, which is something I don't know you. I think your people open minds look down. Yes, when I went I I've got the sort of I haven't got the inventory, but I got there's over three hundred pages, yeah, UFO files in the Goldwater thing.

And I'm also going I'm spending a day to two days to go up to Albuquerque and I'm going to look at the SHIFT papers and there's always great amount of material, and that's part of my thing is that I always believe I'm not gonna see disclosure. I've admitted that I really don't care whether it's disclosure or not. My thing is, I figure I was honored to have been involved in you a ful thing, to have a sighting, to have been

involved in UFU community. And my thing is to record as much of what has happened now for people five hundred year from now, because five hundred years they'll say, man, I wish I'd been when these guys were there. This was fantastic. We're here and I'm honored to be here to be a part of it, and I'm trying to document as many of these papers and I put them up on my website. So I'm gonna have the Goldwater papers

up, and I'm gonna have all the SHIFT papers. I'm going to Albuquerque to photograph all the SHIFT papers, so that that's I guess the only thing I've got and I'll be at the UFO Congress and we'll get together. And I appreciate all you've done for me. You've you've promoted my stuff, and you're one of the good guys. So thanks did oh buddy. All right, we'll see in a few weeks, you bet, the Great grand Cameron. If you notice he said ao lot, it's because he's out there in

Canada, and that's why our connection wasn't one hundred percent. He's up there in the cool Canadian tundra and we're out here in the warm Arizona desert. But thank you guys so much for listening. Don't forget to join us next week, and also visit PRESIDENTIALUFO dot com for more on Grant. Visit Openminds dot tv and Ufodailynews dot com for your latest and greatest UFO news. Talk to you next week, people,