Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I am your host, Alessandro Rojas, and we have with us helping us with the news all the way from Moscow, Russia. Sunny Moscow, Russia. We have Martin Suma Shdshi Willis. I don't know what that means, but you're probably right. Hal it's supposedly. I probably completely said it wrong, but it's it's supposed to be some kind of slang Russian term for crazy loco you use, I use word. I usually use what she after some things I've seen here.
I should know that word. Has anybody yelled that to you? Sumach she? Not that I can remember, but it's very possible. Good. Yeah, well, now you know if someone does what that means? Yeah, okay, but how are things? You sound really good again? You sound actually better than you do when we're recording your show because it's the middle of the night for you. Do you sound so tired? Yeah? You know it's the uh yeah, it's the equipment, you know. I mean,
it's just amazing. But you know, Skype's really good here. Moscow, I have to say, is one of the most beautiful cities I've ever if not the most beautiful city I've ever been. Really, the architecture is just amazing in the early you know, the thirteen hundreds, you know, chapels in the Kremlin and all that went through, all that in the last few days and wow, it's just fabulous, fabulous, beautiful. How cool that is interesting to hear, Man, I would love to see. There's a
lot of places I'd love to see. And you having said possibly the most beautiful city you've ever seen, Man, that really puts Moscow up on the list. What also puts Moscow up on the list for me is that of all the towns in Russia, you can actually see our website in Moscow, and you've had trouble other places. It is working coming in here. So it's not Joe blocked here. Good yeah, because for some reason we talked
about this, some countries block us. But again it is a isp So if you're listening to this podcast from another country and you're like, eh, you know they black me here in this country, I don't know what accent that was. I kind of made it up. It's kind of an ambiguous foreigner accent. But if you you that is you with that weird accent making that comment then check with your ISP because it's the ISPs. Some of them
out there block us for reasons unknown. Maybe they're afraid of the men in black coming and get them, getting them if they look at UFO websites that could be there everywhere. I do want to say, this city has twelve million people. You know, New York City is like, you know, or eighty seven, I mean eight point seven million. There's twelve here. It's unbelievable. So are people on top of each other though, like New York or more spread out like an l spread out. Yeah, it's it's
hard to believe that there's that many people here. I'm in what's considered Moscow, but not near the downtown. It's probably about fifteen miles to get downtown from you know, Red Square from here, or maybe a little bit more, maybe like twenty miles to Red Square. But the it's not there's hardly any skyscrapers. It's just spread out. I just heard from a local person they said it takes you a day to drive through Moscow. I don't know if that's true or not, but it is. It's there's these big,
huge apartment buildings with like thousands of people in them. It's amazing. How cool. That is amazing. And I saw on Facebook some of your pictures that you have some pictures there. But that's really cool to here. It's really interesting to hear about, you know, other places in Moscow. So cool. That is really cool. I had another Russian question for you, but I can't remember what it is, but so let's just kind of move
on. Okay, let's talk about our guest. Our guest, as far as I know, I'm the first to have him on the podcast, and I think after people hear the interview, everybody's going to want to have them on because he's cool. But his name is Finnian Handley and he is actually an admin for our Open minds UFO News facebook group. I didn't even know how he became an admin, to be honest, because you know, we kind of inherited the admins from the old move On Facebook group for our group
because they're just extremely talented. They're a great group of admins, and Karen King kind of headed that up along with Richard Hoffman, who we had on the show not long ago. That was a great show too, and they kind of brought everybody over, which was great, and he came along because he was someone that they had identified as someone who could do a great job at it, and he has done a great job, very grounded skeptical point of view, which I appreciate because I think it's important for us, you
know what. You and I both have that aspect or perspective because we're looking for the truth. We just don't want to believe everything. And however, he has had this amazing sighting that you know, I think he even talks about how it's just for a skeptic, it's just crazy that he could have
had such a weird sighting. So we talked to him about these sightings and you know, his perspective and some of the news that he's come across and the modern eufology and some of the hoaxers and stuff like that we have to watch out for. So that's what we talk about. He's in the UK, so it's another international connection. So it's kind of fun. We're talking
to you and Russia. We're getting our UFO news in Russia, and then we're going to the UK to talk UFOs with a researcher UFO enthusiast out there. And I don't, by the way, using that word some people really think that they hate that word UFO enthusiast, but I I don't. I mean, when you're writing, it's an accurate word. You know, someone is enthusiast enthusiastic about UFOs. I guess that's what I would be considered.
Really Yeah, me too, I would say I am too. I'm not really an activist and I'm not out there on the street, you know. I like, I think we are doing something to help get the word out and help hopefully, and I've heard that influence people to take the whole thing more seriously. But yeah, I'm an enthusiast. Yeah, no, I
think you know. It's it's good, like you just said, you all to get feedback like I do about my show that you know, people are saying thank you, you know, thank you for bringing these people to us and talking about this and all that and not going off the fringe. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, So I'm excited for this, uh in for
you all to get to know Finn. It's really cool stuff. And then for those of you that are in the Open Mind UFO Facebook group, you'll recognize who he is and his sighting and you'll you'll know you know more about him when you're in there interacting with him. Now about the group, it is a closed group, but if you want to join this Facebook group where we just have more discussion. We have a lot of analysis of the UFO
photos and videos that are posted. Mark D'Antonio, who is the mof on photo analyst, is another admin for the group, and he's in there analyzing so or Finn and other people who are very good at it. Now that you years of it has happened, but it's very respectful debate and discussion on all of these topics. And that's the whole point. That's why it's a closed group, is that if people break the rules such as being total jerks
or trolls or just you know, off topic. You know, we all know that on the internet there are just people who are not productive or friendly and just completely inappropriate. We those people get kicked out because this is a safe space for us to discuss maturely and respectfully. Because we respectfully disagree on stuff. What do we I mean, there's debating allowed, it's just not disrespectful debating. What do we disagree on? Have we disagreed on something?
I'm sure we have. We have it's on show number two seventeen. Oh yeah, no, that's when you called me that bad. I can't remember what it was, but yes, I do recall one show we did have a you totally were uh we had totally opposite ideas, which is fine. That was just one. Oh you know what I think it was on On one of those shows was the year end review where it's me, you and
Lee. That's right, that's what That's what it was. I do remember that because there's always Steph, Lee and I disagree about on that show, and there's stuff that you and I disagreed about, but that's what's fun about that shows about the roswell slides bom bom bomb. Oh yeah, you think they're real. No, No, don't go there, that's not true. Everyone don't don't know. I thought it was one of the most spectacular things
of the year, and you did not. That's oh yeah. I was kind of being one of the crotchety, crotchety old ufoers who was like, ah, we don't need to talk about this, but it was a significant event, so yeah, and you and Lee were all like, yeah, this is crazy. Well, and Lee wanted to rail on everybody, so which I can understand. So, yeah, go listen to the year review show if you want to hear about that. That was a lot of fun. It was all right, Well, why don't we get to the UFO
news then? I'm ready? All right, Well this section you usually start off, So what is the news story you would like to talk about? I think I can figure out which one. I don't know what it is, No, I know, Well, you can tell me if this is the one you're thinking of. I have to say, if you're a skeptic about UFOs, I would love for you to get involved and listen to the tapes. And that as a nine one one operator tells describes the nineteen ninety
four Michigan UFO flap, It's just one occurrence during the flap. Is that the one you were thinking I was going to talk about? It's not because I think I mentioned that last week, and that one was a little old from a while ago. However, we didn't discuss it at length last week. I don't think so, And you're right, so let's talk about it. Go ahead, Okay, Well pardon me for that, Oh, no
problem, Yeah, no, it's up. This happened back in March of nineteen ninety four and the recordings is what I would love the listener now to take some time. It's a twenty three minute long recording, but well worth it. And the reason I say it's well worth it is because, first of all, these people are calling in because they see these strange lights and formations of lights and all that, and they're calling in, you know, pretty calm. There's no one like super excited, and they're just saying where
they are. And then they the dispatchressy's going to send an officer out. So what's really amazing is they then talk to the Weather Service bureau and the guy says, no, I'm not seeing anything, let me check, and then he looks vertical on the radar and sees he says, wow, this is a huge return. And first of all, they start out by talking that, oh, yeah, it's just probably radio tower lights. And they're
now they're changed lights and they're blinking. People are just thinking that them, you know, they start out totally skeptical, both of them themselves, the two people in the conversation, and then it goes into further and what am I seeing here? I've never seen anything like this, and it's huge. These are huge returns coming in. They're you know, fifty kilometers apart. There's three of them. They're moving there, and they're moving and disappearing and
coming back. So anyway, it's a fantastic recording. And I'm sorry if we covered this last week, but I sure hope that the listener will take the time go to Open Minds and look at this. It's titled listen nine to eleven nine one one Operator Tapes Describe described nineteen ninety four Michigan UFO flap. You go to that article and you listen to that tape and it is
really something. And we actually reposted it as well on Friday because it was part of our Open Mind UFO Report video news piece that we do for YouTube on YouTube, So we covered that as well, and it's a bit of a longer UFO report because we include some of the most exciting clips from those tapes and we have it translated so you can read what the people are saying. Because I agree with you, it's an incredible case. There were about
three hundred witnesses, including police officers. You know, even in the tapes, you hear the dispatch saying, yeah, we have an officer reporting the same thing that you're talking about on radar. You know three or four of these objects in the same area you're talking about, So you're right, it's so cool and that is the best part. You even have the radar guy at one point saying, oh my god, you know, I mean really
excited. So yeah. On our Open Mind GUFO report, you can and hear some of that too if you want just a summary of I think some of the best parts, but if you have the time, look at the whole thing. And if you follow one of the links. This story was posted by Roger Marsh because it was Moufon who posted these tapes, and there's a link in the story for a summation of the events, and I believe it was even written by the Moufon Michigan chief investigator Daniel Snow, who took
a harder look at this case recently. And there you will have a transcription of everything that was said, so it's a little helpful for parts that you can't read, or just if you want to remember, you know, some of the more exciting parts or look for them. You could look in this transcription that's on UFO casebook that's listed linked on our Openminds dot TV story. So yeah, I agree with you. Those tapes are so fun, They're so interesting, and you can hear the excitement of you know, these people
who are seeing something weird. Yeah, they're totally skeptical at first, and then uh get really excited about it. And you know, I feel like I kind of failed you because this is kind of like a rerun of a rerun that you've been doing. So oh, sorry, stop it. No, there's no problem. I mean, cases like this, are you kidding there? The great cases are really exciting to talk about. So even if you know there are parts of these great cases that we didn't talk about before,
it's fun to talk about them again. I mean we've covered a couple of times in Open Minds just because it's so exciting. So yeah, definitely, no problem, all right, no problem at all. So yeah, great stuff. However, this is a story I thought you were going to talk about because I know what it is. Yeah, you know what it is. So you tricked me there, probably on purpose. You're probably were like, I want to not choose that one, just to trick them.
But this one, hopefully we'll talk about this one again next week, you know, because there are a lot of exciting pieces to this story. This is a story that was written by Paul stone Hill, and actually a part of this he wrote us a story a few years ago that we posted on the website that's also included in this story. It's called UFO sidings in the seventeenth century. However, these sightings that he's talking about center on the European
Russia area, so parts of Russia that are near Europe. You know, some of these countries used to be part of Russia and they no longer are. But one of those countries in particular that he talks about is Georgia. But what's great and what is so fun about Paul posting this story. By the way, Paul stone Hill is a Russian UFO expert and he and Philip Mantle just posted a new book. They just got this done and you can I've posted something about it on our Facebook. We'll have Paul on to talk
about it some more. But Underwater UFO cases they wrote a book on recently from Russia, so that's really interesting stuff. But yeah, these stories are really fun, especially to think of you out there in Russia. But the history, I mean, when you read these stories, the history of the area that you're in and that whole you know, Eastern Europe area we are
not as familiar with. We know a lot more about Western Europe because our history is tied to that, and Americans usually don't care about the history of other people or other countries so much, it seems, but the history is so rich and you get to see some of that in this story. So you see a kremlin in a town called Vla. Hopefully I'm saying it right,
but it is near It's pretty good, thank you. It is near this lake called robo Zero Lake. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because this is one of the most exciting and fun stories of the whole of the story. And this is a very big sighting. I guess it's one of the most famous ones out there in Russia where in the late sixteen hundreds sixteen sixty three to be exact, there was a ball of light that was seen over a lake, this lake, this robo Zero Lake, and there
were tons of people around who witness this. This ball, I guess was emitting this blue smoke. These guys rowed up to it, but it was so hot that they had to get back. It beamed these lights down into the water, and the guys in the boat said they could see the fish under the water kind of scurry away from this light. It was so bright they could see all the way that the light was going all the way to the uh to the to the lake bed, and just this incredible sighting and
that this thing then flew off. But what the pictures there. This story has been written up in magazines in Russia, and so you have a couple pieces of art out there that kind of depict this siding, and they're really cool paintings or pictures, and I included those in the story. Uh, so you can get a sense of what it was like out there. They even have kind of the Kremlin in the background one of them. But it it reminds me of the giant orb that they saw the Allegash guys say they
saw in Maine. So you might remember this story. A few months ago, we put out a documentary kind of on this story where we edited together interviews with these guys and this incredible sighting they had in the seventies and Aligash, Maine. But it was a giant orb like this and over the water over this lake, so really cool sightings. It's a great story. Yeah, I love this one. I did too. I really wanted to do it, but then I wanted to trick you by doing that other one.
Yeah. Yeah, well no, it's I just was looking through the artwork. It is pretty amazing. Yeah, really cool stuff. And it's neat, you know, to hear about these popular stories elsewhere, because of of course, we have Phoenix Lights, we have Roswell, we have the big stuff that we're into out here, so it's interesting to know what other countries are looking at as their kind of landmark cases, and this is one of
them out there. So yeah, maybe when you see some people out there, if you want to start conversation, you can just be like UFO Robo Zero Lake Big UFO and they'll go oh yeah yeah, and then you'll you know, become buddies. Well you know, that's there's just a handful of sightings that you hear about that go back that many years, you know, just a few of them, and this this is a yeah, a major one. Yeah. Paul Stonehill does some great stuff. His stuff is so
interesting, so yeah, it'll be a lot of fun. We'll have him on the show here soon. But yeah, I've got luckily right now, I have a lot of people booked in everything, so so it's been going easier. You know, sometimes it's kind of hard to find guests or you kind of struggle, and I get so busy that sometimes it's hard to get out there and find the people. So but that's really cool. So I
have one more story I want to talk about. Yeah, and some people have pointed out and maybe I could have come up with a better headline, but I don't know. Headlines can get kind of hard when you want to have him short, not too long. So here's the headline. Researcher receives FAA's latest UFO reporting procedures. Some people pointed out that, well, big deal, you can find those online, which is true. You can.
However, if you read the story, and even if you read the top thing I wrote, like my first sentence is, while searching for the Federal Aviation Administration's UFO files, a researcher using the Freedom of Information Act recently received the FA's procedures for taking UFO blah blah blah, blah blah blah. That's not interesting either. The interesting part when you read the story, and that's what a lot of people don't do these days is read stories. They just
read the headlines. But is that they told him? So he put in a FOYA saying I would like all of your UFO files. FAA. They replied and said, okay, here you go, And all they sent him were two pages of their manual that reviewed UFOs, which is their reporting procedures. And according to them, that's all of their UFO files. And that's the interesting part that is bogus, quite frankly, is that that supposedly is all they have, when we know they have a lot more UFO incidents that
they are aware of and had something to do with. So at the end of the story, I review and I have a couple of videos related to one of those incidents, perhaps the most famous and most significant, which is the Chicago o'hareo. Yeah, it's because you're you're a smart dude seventeen exactly Gate C seventeen. I didn't even include the picture. I should have inserted my picture because I last time I was in the Chicago Hair Airport, I
took a picture of Kates seventeen too. I usually put them in the in here, but I didn't. But anyway, if you're not aware of this. John Hilkovich, he's a writer for the Chicago Tribune. He wrote about this story and really made it. When he wrote his story, he said at the time, and you can see in these videos that it was the biggest story they had ever had. People were so interested because these pilots and these United Airlines personnel at gay C seventeen saw this dishaped UFO hovering over the
gate for a period of time before shooting straight up through the clouds. There was cloud covers and it left a hole in the clouds that eventually filled. But you know, scientists had talked about how it would have had to have been a very hot object to melt the clouds like that, because you know, if you're flying through the clouds, it's not like they part or a stage. You just kind of they just kind of go around you inane and you don't really affect the clouds. But yeah, so it's a great UFO
sighting. The FAA kind of stonewalled Hilkovich when he looked into it. People they were saying in Yonia did too. They denied that it happened at all. But he had these pilots and these firsthand witnesses. He did a FOIA and he got some FA documents where they admitted they did get a report on this. They said, well, we think it might be weather phenomena, but that obviously wasn't the case. And you know, in these videos, Hilkovic kind of talks about that as well. But it's interesting kind of the
stonewalling that he got and then he finally got some information later on. But it really seems like they're not sharing everything they truly do have. And Greenwald I asked him some questions about it that I included in the story. I
think his insight is really interesting. And one of the things he also talked about was how difficult it is to get information out of the FAA because they try to You have to go to every FAA station, of which there are many of them, because they don't keep all the files in one place. And so yeah, I talked to them about all all of that in the short interview in this story. But that's what's interesting is that they're claiming these are their only UFO files. That is pretty funny. Actually, yeah,
wow, what about bung holes. I guess what were you going to say? I was going to say, this is a g rated show and you're right on the fringe of yeah that was close. Yeah, but yeah, so hopefully if you're listening and the kids in the bank, he's like, aha, bung hole, bunghole. So but I guess the other interesting part is that for those who are not aware, those of us who are have actually called the FA with UFO issues investigating these sorts of things already know.
But although it's a little different, and I do review this right now, they say that if you have a UFO report, you should contact a data collection center such as the National UFO Reporting Center, and if the current concern is expressed that life or property might be endangered, report the activity to the local law enforcement. So they don't care, essentially is what they're saying. Call someone else called Newfork, who's you know, it's a great group.
I definitely would recommend people to let Newfork know if you have a UFO siding. But that's a one man show. That's one guy taking phone calls right with a website updating this website on siting, So of course he can't do investigations or it's really not going to go anywhere. Best you know, you can contact moufon. I'll do some more investigation, but it's not like they're
an official organization. The other group who used to be listed was Robert Bigelow's group and part of Bigelow Aerospace, but he's really busy, of course with his other work, including he's got right now, you know, this attachment to the International Space Station that they're testing inflatable unit there. Yeah, exactly, the inflatable unit. So I don't even know if they're doing a lot of paranormal stuff. But after I posted my story, one of the researchers
out there, Sheppard Johnson, he's on Facebook a lot. He actually called the Bigelow hotline and they answered, so he the Bigelow still has their kind of paranormal UFO hotline open, but so, but they're not listed anymore on here. But yeah, it's so frustrating that if you call the FA saying, hey, there's something weird in the sky, I don't know what this is, instead of having any concern for the safety of the people in the
air, they're gonna say, call someone else. Yeah, you would think there would have to be some that they would just have to take, like if it was in you know, airspace, protected airspace or something like that. You would think so or near you know, near an airport, like the like you said, the old hair, Yeah, citing, you know, something like that. When it's endangered, endangering you know, air traffic.
I can't see how they could shy away from it, right, And in this Chicago O'Hair incident, they did delay flights from that gate for a period of time. So yeah, it's it's really frustrating, it's kind of silly, it's perplexing. And yeah, so this is a good example though, this story, which is just don't read the headline, get into the story. But maybe I could have written something more exciting like FAA hiding Yeah, oh, bungholes at FAA hiding UFO secrets. That might have been Yeah,
that'll go viral. Yeah, you're right, Oh well next time. All right, that's it for the news that I have. Of course, we have a lot more news every day we're posting something. Roger has a lot more moufon stories up on the site, some of them interesting, such as this guy you know, saying that he remembered in the past some helicopters escorting a cigar shaped UFOs. Also, somebody seeing a triangular ufon near an
air Force base. So lots of Air Force military type sightings recently. So yeah, and we have a Portuguese pilot who said he had seen some things also, So a lot of reports up there on the side at Openminds dot Tv. Was there any more news you wanted to mention my friend? No, that's good. Yeah, there is a lot. Notice, there is a lot of news on your site. That's it for me across the sea. Oh that run, that's nice. I know that was an accident.
Yeah, all right, Well, thanks for joining us once again, Martin. You'll be safe over there in Russia and have fun in Moscow post some more of those beautiful pictures. I will, all right, And I can't wait to hear the interview. I can't wait to hear that guy's sighting. Yeah, it's really interesting. So why don't we go ahead and get into that and let's talk to Finian. I am very excited to have on the show. Finian Handly, Hello, Hey, how are you doing good?
How are you? Yeah? I'm good good. So it's almost like, well, it is late at night there, and why don't you tell everybody where you're at. I'm in Monmouth, little town just on the border of Wales and England. Yeah, a really nice little place, not that big, not much going on, but nice if you like the countryside and walks in the countryside and that sort of thing. I love that, man, I would love to visit there one day. I'll bet it's gorgeous. It
is. Yeah, it's lovely. And if you're there, you've got to be careful because I know I have to be very careful when I'm writing not to call a Welsh person English. Oh yeah, it's funny because this is a border town. It's a you got a funny mixture of people. You get the occasional person who actually speaks Welsh, but that's pretty rare. But yeah, yeah, it's one of those things. You do want to be careful. They don't like that, no, But otherwise, I mean,
there are no sin sure, they're on the border. It's not dangerous. There's no sort of violence happening between the Welsh and the English. That we're out of Europe thankfully. I think that's a thing of the past. Now. Yeah, it's all pretty calm good. That's a very good thing. There's enough fight and go on out there. Indeed, yeah, Jo, and maybe we'll get into some of that, because there have been some things
that just you know, have been posted today. And I know you're on top of everything because you administer the open mind UFO group, and I guess how did that come about? And do you administer other Facebook groups as well.
I'm just trying to think. I don't think I'm an admin on any other groups at the moment, and I'm not active on the open minds one, but I try and help out where I can, just because I figure I've been interested in this since I mean not as long as many researchers, but since about two thousand and seven, I've been looking into this, and I've come across so many kind of like hoaxes and videos which are obviously computer graphics and that sort of thing. And I've got a little bit of a
background which helps me spot some of those things. So I help out on some discussion boards just trying to give I give my opinion on whether things are hoaxes or not, because there are so many of them going around that Unfortunately, a lot of people get into this and they fall for it. They
fall for stuff because they don't know what to look for. So I'm one of those people that tries to tries to trust to I don't know it, tries to stay grounded in this very confusing and controversial subject because I'm from after my own experience, I know there's definitely something real going on, something unexplained.
But it also seems that because this subject has been going for so long, it's had a long time to build up a kind of reputation of you know, hoaxes, people trying to make money, people just trying to get attention, and now with YouTube it's got even worse, where people can make a pretty good living if they can create the right hoax and get it to
go viral. And there are several, as we all know they are, like Secure Team ten and channels like that, who are regularly coming up with hoaxes, and I just find that, I don't know, it's quite frustrating to watch when you know that there is definitely something real going on with the UFOs and then you see all these hoaxes polluting the whole arena. So yeah, occasionally I like to to kind of speak out and say when I think
something's a hoax or not, yeah, which is helpful. And we'll get into some of those hoax sites, because I think that'll be interesting, and I think that the listeners for the most part, are aware. But it's always good to remind people and to talk about this because your UK tabloids have gone haywire with some of these hoax sites. But we'll talk about that, but first I want to get into your background and your experience. However,
I did have a question for you. So I think you were. You came over as an admin from the move on Facebook group that was taken down, and then luckily, I thought you guys did such a great job because the admins there were so grounded that luckily, you know, a lot of you came over and have helped out with our group. How did you get involved with that Facebook group? I'm not. I don't think I was an
admin there. If I were, well, you weren't. Well, yeah, if I was, it may have been for the last couple of weeks or something. I don't think I was, though, But I'm good friends with Karen King, so that's how it happened. Yeah. I met Karen, I think through a different Facebook group to do with the UFOs, and so I came over to the move on one just when all of that drama was happening just before they closed it, which was a bit of a shame.
Oh that's funny. So that I didn't even know how you came to the group, and it was from Karen, and Karen did come from the Facebook group move on one and Karen is one of the very active kind of the head admin almost over there at our group as well. Yeah, okay, that clears that up. So now I know, but you were talking about your own sighting. Tell us about that, right, So I first got well, when I was a kid, I remember seeing magazines photos of
UFOs and finding it fascinating. When I was kind of seven, eight nine, you know, we'd get these kind of unexplained mysteries magazines, and I remember seeing at least a couple of those and seeing UFO photographs and just finding the whole thing fascinating. But then I went, you know, for the next ten or so years not never thought about it at all, completely forgot
about UFOs as a subject, and then so more than ten years. Then in two thousand and six, late two thousand and six, I was on YouTube board one day and I thought, I'll tell you what, I'll look back into UFOs see if there are any good videos about UFOs. So I went on there and just stumbled across the Disclosure Project. I watched the Disclosure Project, and I was quite shocked actually by the time I finished watching it, because I thought a lot of these guys look very credible, and so
it just piqued my interest again. It made me get back into looking into the subject. And I remember the fact that my mum had told me when I was a little younger that she had seen a flying saucer landing in the park outside her parents' house, which is one of those it's a strange thing. When she told me about it, I I think I was about sixteen seventeen. I was not at the time, not into UFOs. So she mentioned this in passing and I was kind of surprised that she'd never mentioned it
before, but we never went into any more detail about that. So having seen this Disclosure Project in two thousand and six, I just remembered that Muma told me that, and I thought, well, then there's definitely something to it, because she wouldn't lie about it. She wasn't the sort of woman to make things up. So it just really hit me that, oh, my goodness, I had totally forgotten about this subject, and now I'm going
to get back into looking into it. So I did a lot of research on the Internet, which, as you know, is filled with problems because you can run across god knows how many websites which will claim to know what's going on, and there's a lot of disinformation out there. But I just absorbed stuff. Over the next nine months or so, I just was obsessed
with the subject. So that was a two thousand and six two thousand and seven kind of mid two thousand and seven when I when I got to a point where I felt like I kind of had seen enough documentaries and things to get a rough idea that pretty much there is obviously something going on, there might be some kind of a cover up in place, and I just kind of felt like I've got a good idea about the general kind of the general
area of what's going on in euthology. And then in late two thousand and seven, to my complete surprise, I was not expecting to ever see a UFO, although obviously one hopes one's going to get to see one. As I was driving up to my sister's house on a Thursday evening, I saw what looked like two balls of light dropping out of the cloud because it was quite thick cloud cover, and it looked and they just dropped out of the
clouds and headed down and disappeared behind some rooftops. So I quickly pulled the car over because I was right next to my sister's house by this point. So I pulled the car over and parked it up in her car park, And as I got out of the car, I looked back towards where the where these balls of light had disappeared behind the rooftops. And it sounds bizarre. But the next thing I know, I see these two aircraft come flying over very low, and the first thing that occurred to me was that they
were too close together. They were literally only a couple of meters apart, and they looked like triangles. Now at the time, having still relatively new to euthology, I hadn't heard much about black triangles, and I remember my instant reaction was, well, this is too good to be true. This can't be a UFO. That would be kind of silly. This must be some kind of aircraft I've not seen before. So the balls of light I kind of blew that off. I just completely censored that from my memory and
I never really thought about it again. But the craft, the aircraft, I was just really impressed with them. They were so low, they were really close together. I didn't hear any noise, but it just looked like two plain black triangles with white lights on each corner and the flashing white light in the center. And I think the flashing white lights were part of the reason why it was easier for me to just blow it off as being some
kind of aircraft than I had misidentified it. So that was late two thousand and seven. Now, let me see, it was on the eighth of December in two thousand and seven, So I'd seen those and I thought, Okay, maybe that was a UFO sighting. Maybe it wasn't, but I think you could safely say it was ambiguous. You could say it was an
ambiguous sighting. Couldn't really tell for sure what I was looking at, and I came away from it thinking i'd probably misidentified well, you know, i'd probably seen an aircraft that I wasn't familiar with, So that's that sighting, and I kind of thought that was it. If it was a UFO, you know, you don't expect to ever see one again. But then the following year, I had moved house and I was now living in month. Before I was living just outside month. Now I'd moved into town in two
thousand and eight, and I just started working for a taxi company. So I was doing six days a week driving around town. And I know Monmuth really well because I've lived here my whole life. So it turned out to be a good job for me. And then come September, i'd been working with the taxis for a couple of months. It came to a Friday night on the twenty sixth of September two thousand and eight, I picked up a customer in the taxi from one of the local pubs because it was ab around
ten o'clock at night. Can you still hear me? Okay, yes, I hear You're fine. Okay, Sorry, I've got a bit of an
interference on this. And oh so, anyway, so I pick up a customer in the middle of town, and I'm heading up the dual carriageway heading out of Monmouth kind of in a northerly direction, and lo and behold, I see what looks like these two black triangles again in the same formation, in other words, really close together, just two or three meters apart, and they seemed to be flying in the opposite direction to where I was going
in the car. But this I found this quite disturbing at this point because I thought, this is the second time I've seen these things. I don't know what they are, but they looked like they look like black triangles. So I actually pulled the car over as I put on it through the windscreen and I said to the gentleman who's with me, can you see that? And he looked through the windscreen looking up and he said, yeah, I can see that. And I was like, what the hell is that?
And he said, I don't know. So I actually got out of the car and I watched them disappear over the hill, heading in the opposite direction to where I was going, and I just thought, Wow, this is weird. I've seen these things two times. I don't know what they are, but I think they're UFOs. So I dropped him off and I was on my way back into Monmouth to pick another customer up. Waited for the customer for about ten fifteen minutes. He didn't turn up, so I phoned
up my boss. My boss said, head back into Monmoth and pick up a regular customer we've got who we always pick up at ten thirty on a Friday night. So I headed down back down the dual carriageway towards this guy's house. And as I came back through Monmuth, you have to stop at
some traffic lights. I stopped at these traffic lights, and as I looked over looked ahead of me, I saw over to the right hand side of the dual carriageway, just next to these trees, which sitting right next to the to the road, there were these two bowls of light hovering above these trees. And at this point I now started, you know, you can imagine I was kind of swearing, kind of swearing openly, even though there was no one in the car with me. And it became quite clear at
this point that I was seeing these again. So the lights turned green and I started to pull away from the lights. At this point, I was maybe one hundred and fifty meters from the balls of light, so I started to drive towards them, slowed the car down, wound down the window. So this wasn't some kind of reflection, and I was just looking out of the window directly at these two balls of light as I drove past them.
Each one was about the size of a little larger than a basketball. The one was hovering just above the other, and it was so close and so unambiguous. Alejandro, it was this most strange, bizarre moment of my life. I was never expecting to see a UFO, let alone see these bizarre UFOs at such a close proximity. It was quite disturbing, and I actually
wanted to get some distance from them because they were kind of fizzing. It was like they were full of energy and they were about to pop. But they were amber colored balls, perfectly shaped balls of light, and the lower one had a spike sticking out of it. You know, it sounds bizarre enough, but you know, this detail was just pretty crazy. So I'm looking at this spike sticking out the right hand side, and it was actually
getting longer, and I just felt like they were going to explode. I felt really unsafe, so I carried on driving for a couple of one hundred meters and pulled over in this slip road which which comes off the motorway. So I pulled over and this whole thing, I've worked it out. Took about fifteen seconds for me to carry on driving from where I saw these orbs to where I pulled over and got out of the car. And in that time, I was concentrating on pulling over right and not crashing the car,
so I had to take my eyes off these balls of light. So I'm so I drove, drove to the lay by, pulled over, got out of the car. I'm standing in the middle of the road. Now there's no one, no other cars on the road because it was late on a Friday night, And I turned around to look towards where the balls of light had been, and now, bizarrely, there are these two in exactly the same place where the balls of light were. There are now two black triangles
hovering about three or four meters above the tree tops. It was like something out of a Steven Spielberg movie. It was absolutely it was ridiculous. These two aircraft. They looked futuristic, they looked really really they just looked incredible. I don't know if you've ever been to an air show and you've seen like a stealth bomber close up, it was kind of you get that feeling of awe, that wow, that's an incredible piece of kit that someone has
made there, that someone's constructed. And I got this same impression from these black triangles. I was just in awe. Not only that they were hovering above the tree tops without making any noise, but they were so large and they just looked absolutely beautiful. About how far do you think they were from you at that point? I've managed to work it out on Google Earth because I know the exact tree that they were hovering above because of the shape of
it, and I know exactly where this slip road is. So I've gone on to Google Earth and I've worked it out. It's exactly two hundred and fifty meters. So I stood about two hundred and fifty meters away from these triangles, and so they were hovering above the trees, side by side now, and I watched them for about five seconds before they started to slowly move
across the motorway. They both moved at exactly the same time, and they were moving at walking pace, incredibly slowly, and I just remember standing there swearing, but I didn't believe what I was looking at. I'm sure you've been asked this question, where was your phone? Did you try to take a picture? Yeah, this is one of those I mean, it's the great question of youos it? Why didn't you get a good photo? Well,
I've got several kind of excuses. The first one is that because I've been living in the country where there was no phone signal before I moved to Monmouth. When I did finally move to Monmoth and I got this job with the taxi firm, I had to buy my first mobile phone. Now, for a lot of people in two thousand and eight, they're probably thinking,
well, I've had a mobile phone for years by then. Well, for me, this was my first mobile phone, so I wasn't kind of familiar or used to the idea that I was now carrying a camera around with me as well. So the first thing is that I just didn't didn't think about the fact that I had a camera on me. But the second thing is that if you see something absolutely incredible that you're not expecting to see and it actually shocks you, and in my case, my instinctive reaction was to just
not take my eyes off these ufhones. I just did not want to miss a thing, and had I thought, oh yeah, I'll get my camera out. Then that would that would have meant looking at the camera, you know, pressing it on button and a soo many things could have happened where I could have missed what was going on, And honestly, it was much more important to me to see these things for myself and to not miss a
second of it. Then there was no thought in my head thinking, Oh, I need to be able to prove this to someone later on down the line. Wouldn't it be amazing to be able to prove it. I didn't have time to think any of those thoughts. I was just thinking, Oh my god, what the hell is that I can't you know, I don't
want to miss a second of this. That's a good way to put it, because I've had that same a similar experience with I think the best sighting I had that I might have been able to capture on camera, but I had the same thing going on in my head that you just described. Yeah, I mean, I've because I live in the near a place called the Forest of Dean. I've been driving my car at night and suddenly I come across a huge In two different occasions, two different occasions, I've met deer
on the roads, which are quite rare to see a wild deer. So I've been driving and I've you know, suddenly come across a huge deer with these huge antlers, and you wind your window down and all you're thinking is, Wow, that's incredible to be able to see something like that, that's rare, and you're not necessarily thinking, Okay, I've got to get a
photo this. It's I think it's one of those horrible things about UFOs in general, though, because you know, you know that there's someone who's had a similar experience to you, who was actually holding a camera at the time and could have really easily got a snap. But it just seems to be part of the design of these encounters that you're that's never going to happen. You're just not You're either not going to be allowed to in some way or I don't know, it just it just seems to be part of this is
the design of this mystery. No one will ever get a good photo. And when someone's you know, when you see a video on YouTube's you know, amazing high quality footage of UFO, you know, you're the maths are pretty good. The odds are on your side. If you guess that that's probably going to be a hoax, because what are the chance, you know, I mean, how many really good bits of footage are there of UFOs?
I can only I can count them on one hand. In all the years I've been looking at your faux footage, I can think three or four videos that I think might be genuine, which is a pretty sad start of affairs. Maybe I'm a little overly skeptical. I think you're right, though I agree with you one hundred percent. Yet there are people like you who are having these amazing sightings. So the sightings are happening, but unfortunately, like you mentioned, they just don't seem to be able to be captured.
I mean, it is difficult to capture things on video in the first place, much harder than people may think, especially at night, especially at night. Oh god. Yeah, And I'm sure many people have felt, you know, they see the deer in the forest, or they see a cool jet in the sky and you get out your phone and you record it and you're just totally disappointed by what you get. It's small and in the distance,
or you know, I saw this in Mexico. I had my GoPro or and it wasn't that deep where I saw this incredible lobster that was colorful and everything, and I got my camera and I pointed it at it, and I got some footage, and I thought, this is going to be incredible, And you know, I get the footage on the computer and it's this tiny little thing moving across the ground. You know, it is more
difficult than people realize. So but I, even though it sounds really weird, I get the feeling that you're right that it seems to be somehow the nature of the phenomena that we just can't get good footage. Yeah, it feels like that to me because I don't I honestly don't think that it's just like a coincidence. It's just like, oh, it's just bad luck. You know, we've had all these people having quite unambiguous sightings and it just happens to be that no one ever had a camera on them at the time.
I don't believe that, or that it just happens to be that they were all too shocked to take a photo. I don't believe that. I think that part of the design of this mystery of this phenomenon. It's kind of funny because you know, on the one hand, people are like, oh, come on, that's ridiculous that like they do. But then when we watch science fiction, you know, like Doctor Who or something, you know, he's scanning people and they can scan to see if there's any technology.
You know, there's multiple television shows. So we have this concept of when we write science fiction that these people from the future, of these aliens can scan to figure out if you have any sort of electronics or weapons on you. But when we think, oh, you know, in real life, could could an advanced civilization have something like that, that's ridiculous. So, I mean it's possible, that would be one answer. Yeah, and it's not something I mean, I'm just speculating myself. Obviously, no one
knows the answer to these things. And I've I'm a member of several groups of of skeptically minded people who who look at these things, like from the default point of view that they take is that, well, it's probably not real. It's probably some kind of illusion or some kind of a mental thing. So and so I can totally see how from a skeptics point of view, it's a bit of a cop out to just say, oh, well, it's just that people can't take photos of the UFOs because the UFOs don't
want them to take photos. It's you know, oh, that's a bit too easy, isn't it. But it does seem like that there's something going on. Well, you're just not You're never going to get really good evidence for these things. And yet, and yet one of this, one of the things that really sticks out from my experience in my memory is that it's
the the whole thing just felt. It's like when you've seen so many movies with these things in and you and there's always this great cool music playing in the background, you know, like a Spielberg film, it's a really cool orchestral arrangement in the background, and everything's all very emotional. But when I saw these things, they were just they were kind of almost mundane in their in their physicality. They were quite obviously too aircraft hovering above the trees,
and there was nothing kind of there was nothing ghostly about this. They were too solid looking, physical aircraft that looked, you know, comparable to a stealth bomber, but much more streamlined and minimalists. And yeah, it was kind of the physicality was almost mundane. It was that that these things were definitely there. There was nothing illusory about it. This wasn't some kind of hologram or a ghost or a hallucination. They were just blatantly sat there in
my face, and there was no denying what was going on. I don't claim for a second to know what was controlling them. And obviously the skeptics will say, well, it must have been some kind of a military thing. I'm not ruling that out for a second. Even though they started off as these kind of balls of light and apparently changed into much larger craft. Who am I to say that we haven't got that technology in our military.
I don't know, but I also know that you know, had I no knowledge of the military or or euthology, I think my instinctive reaction would have been to it, think, wow, these these look like something not of this earth. Because of the way that they behaved, the way that they looked so beautifully made, so perfect. I can totally see why people who have these experiences then go with the assumption that it must be alien because they just looked so incredible, And you said they just coasted us slowly, I
guess until you last side of them. Well, this is where it gets even more bizarre because they started to cross the road and the whole time they
were actually changing size, so they started off as equilateral triangles. There was no doubt in my mind they were ecollateral when I saw them floating over my sister's house in December two thousand and seven, and it was also two equilateral triangles that I saw with my customer earlier on on the September evening, and then when I saw them hovering above the trees just after I got out of
the car, they were two equilateral triangles. But they started to move across the road and they actually elongated in length as they went, and this wasn't just like a minimal amount. They almost doubled in length, which was quite distinct, and it was really easy to you know, you could tell what was going on. They were the noose was kind of traveling faster than the
tail end of these things, because it was they were literally stretching. And then once they got about halfway across the motorway, both of them them at exactly the same time, became transparent, almost like the ripples on a pond, so you can tell that they're still there. You can actually see the ripples it's not that they become invisible. You can actually see the outlines, but they were transparent. And this lasted about a second and then they went
solid again, which is utterly bizarre. I mean, why would they do that? Totally bizarre. And then once they got to the other side of the road, they both turned their back ends to me, and one of them headed off up the motorway, and then the other one headed over the river at a right angle, heading towards a little housing estate where I now live. And the whole time they were absolutely silent. They had these distinctive looking blue lights along the back end of each one, which was bulging sticking
out of the bottom. They were like really big lights, whereas all the other lights on them just looked like your standard kind of led, very small but quite bright lights that you see on helicopters and aircraft and that sort of thing. So it was yeah, and that was it. And then they disappeared, and I got in the taxi. Because I was quite new to the job, I thought some people are like, well, why didn't you chase them? Well, first, I was on the wrong side of the
road. I would have had to switch over to the other side of the motorway. But secondly, i'd just got a new job and didn't fancy getting fired. Right, Wow, that's and what was would you have you estimated the size of the Yeah? I made a video about this that i've that I've posted and I can I can link you to it. And it's I'm
quite lucky that because I know the area so well. Where the sighting actually happened was right next door to the school that I spent seven years at, my secondary school, and a few hundred meters away from the local petrol station or as you call it, gas station, and the roof over that gas station it was basically the same size as these triangles. I was instantly able
to estimate it. When I saw the triangles, I thought, okay, they were about the size of the roof over the petrol station, and that petrol station has got twelve pumps under it, so you could fit twelve cars if you park the cars up. You could fit about twelve cars under each black triangle, which is pretty big, but not the sort of size that some people have seen where they're saying it was the size of a football pitch.
These weren't that big, you know, had they had pilots in I would expect them to be a one or a two pilot fighter jet, so pretty large but not super large. Wow, pretty strange, And to see that twice is even more peculiar. Yeah yeah, And it's actually I would prefer it if I had only ever had the final sighting, which was the closest one and the most unambiguous, because when I tell the story, I think it stretches credulity, doesn't it to say, oh, yeah, I
saw these UFOs not once but twice. You know, well, it was actually three times. If the first there was one sighting on the Friday, the eighth of December, and then on the twenty sixth of September two thousand and eight, there were the two sightings, one with the customer and then another one twenty minutes later, all on my own, and that was the
final one where they were just hovering above the motorway. So yeah, it's it's almost unfortunate that I've had those kind of three sightings because it makes it sound like, oh, I'm just one of those people that want to see them so badly that I've kind of made it up or remind yeah, you've got to be full of it. So what's interesting, though, is it makes me think twofold, especially given like what we were talking about hoaxes earlier,
that although you've had these remarkable sightings, you're still very skeptical. I mean that you do come from things from the skeptic side of things. Has do you think your sightings made you more careful or were you already like that? I'm not sure if this honestly. To be honest, I don't think
the sightings had much to do with it. I think the reason why I'm as skeptical as I am now is because I've kind of gone through a journey with upology, where in two thousand and six two thousand and seven I absorbed so much that and I had no idea what was if anything had already been debunked. I wasn't even looking for that. I was just trying to absorb
everything I could that was pro ufo. So, for instance, I'd watch like a presentation with by Haimi Mosam and just think, oh, okay, well he knows what he's talking about, so everything he says must be true. M hm. I watched the documentary about Billy Mayer at well everything says isn't true. No lovely guy, but I just think, oh, I fell for a lot of stuff that it turns out later on I discovered,
after doing a more recent search, that there is questionable evidence. So, for instance, Billy Billy Mayer, you know, he has his followers, I'm quite convinced that he hoaxed a lot of those photos. So but when I first looked into him, I just thought, Wow, why would a guy like that lie? It must all be true, and I was quite
shocked. So later on, as I got a more of a rounded idea of what was going on, I started to realize that basically a lot of the stuff that I believed when I first first started to research and stuff was questionable or just outright already known to be a hoax, I think, had already been debunked. So I kind of felt a bit silly that I'd gone around telling my sister. You know, when I first found out about it, I told my sister, Oh, this is real, this is going
on. There's also this thing called pant X which might hit us in the next few years, you know. And then I found out that so much of that is rubbish, and it made me look as if I had kind of blown a fuse to my friends and family, whereas now I'm kind of at the other end of the scale. My default position is to be skeptical of every piece of purported UFO evidence, whether it's a video or a supposed
whistleblower, and I think some people think I've taken that too far. Some of my friends have you know, I've fallen out with a couple of people on Facebook where they basically think I'm being too skeptical. It happened to me all the time. Yeah, so it's just one of those unfortunate things because I believed so much and found out that so much of it was wrong. I think it is the correct position now is to be skeptical because I've learned
from my mistakes. Basically, so I'm skeptical, but I'm also completely aware that there is definitely a small percentage of this subject which is absolutely legitimate real I'm quite convinced, although that we haven't got the kind of evidence we'd like.
I'm quite convinced that they're is some sort of a cover up going on, because even just from the perspective of the military, if they know that, if they have any inkling that people like myself are having the sort of encounters like the one I report, then they will be wanting to get hold of maybe satellite photos of these vehicles, unless, of course, these vehicles are already ours, in which case our military already knows about it, in
which case there's still some kind of a cover up going on because they are letting people like me have these experiences and feel completely confused about what's going on. Yeah, it's kind of unfair. If this is our military doing this, what the hell are they playing out? They're playing some kind of a mind game with their populace, with people like myself who are left thinking could that be an a could that be aliens? Do you know what I mean?
That's not a good place to put someone if you know that it's actually just a military vehicle. But the way they're flying these things around so unambiguous disturbing, I think, to say the least, if this is US. If it's US, it's disturbing that they're doing this. And if it's not us, then I'm actually less disturbed by that it's you know what I mean?
Yeah, So it's it's just really difficult. So, you know, we had the guy who runs a Black Triangle group on Facebook Shane, Chase and Kevin and he had a remarkable sighting which which to him made him think, Wow, these things definitely are military. And I like Sean. I've just I've discussed it with him a couple of times, and he's such a nice guy because he he's quite convinced that what he saw was man made.
And I have got into debates with him where I've said, oh, you know, are you saying that about all triangle you know, about all these vehicles, and he's he's he's really good about it, because Yeah, I think he just takes his experience for what it was, and I think he accepts that other people like myself might have an experience where for me, these
craft quite blatantly future teristic things. They were not, you know, the the lights on them, even though they look kind of like quite small led lights, they were just really bright and really clean looking, and just the overall shape of these of the Black Triangles just totally look minimalistic and futuristic to me. But the thing is, though, I think Sean got quite got a bit closer to his triangles, didn't he than I did. I was
too. I think he was kind of like right underneath. But he proposes this idea that you touched on that is really fascinating in that if they are man made, or even if some of them are, then he argues, and I think he makes a strong argument that because so many of these black triangles seem to have been so blatant, like you know, hey, look at me, it's like you talked about some sort of program where they want people to see them and think they're alien. And that's really, like you
said, that's quite concerning. Yeah, I mean, I've thought about this now for years, trying to work out what's going on, and you're just left with it's quite humbling. You just have to admit, well, we don't really know what's going on. But I'm left with kind of two options. Either what I saw was some kind of alien vehicle or it was some kind of a military vehicle. If it was aliens, then our government must
know about it and they're covering it up. If it was military, then what are they doing playing mind games with a taxi driver who's just trying to make some money on a Friday night. These things weren't It wasn't like I would I just happened to be driving past, and they were testing some military vehicle out above above my old school. It's kind of ridiculous that they would be testing these things out over a town like that, so they're obviously not
doing military testing. And it was quite obvious that these things could see me or it's hard to explain. It's quite obvious that anyone piloting that thing would have seen this taxi driving past and the taxi driver getting out and swearing and pointing at them. So they weren't trying to do anything secret. It was unambiguous, and who in charge of these things knew that, which is a bit strange. So there's also the third scenario, and this is this scenario
that kind of John Alexander puts forward. Other military people and this new government insider that Leslie Kane had interview, who worked for the DoD and worked on black projects, he says, but who's also been interested in UFOs. He gets the impression that the military knows this type of thing happens, but there's nothing they can do about it. So all they do is take notes. They note that it happened, file it away, and then just want to
ignore it. They don't want anything to do with it because they can't do anything about it, and they just get ridiculed if they, you know, take it seriously. That's true. That is another option. I mean,
have you you know the I may have got it. Oh, I'm trying to remember the name of it. But the Ministry of Defense, No, no, the Ministry of Defense released a thing called a report about the Conde Report, and I found it fascinating to find that In there they explain that there is I can't remember the exact quote, but basically that there are balls of what is thought to be plasma, and if three of these balls get together in a formation, the space between them will turn black and what these
have been called black triangles. And I'm just thinking, wow. So they're they're talking openly about that, and they're talking kind of as if they don't really know what they're talking about. They don't give any they don't give enough detail. But that was that was published years ago, years before I had my sighting. And when I had my sighting, even though I'd done a bit of research into utology before it, I had never heard of morphing balls
of light or morphing orbs. I had heard of orbs. I'd heard flying sources, and I had heard of black triangles, but I'd never heard of a ball of light changing into a larger UFO. So when I saw it,
it was utterly bizarre and unexpected and kind of hard to swallow. But then I obviously I looked it up in the months following my sighting, and it turns out that there have been people having similar sightings for decades, so not only orbs changing into black triangles in recent years, but also historical accounts from the sixties and seventies of people who saw what looked like a ball of
light that then changed into a flying saucer. So that's always It just struck me as being so strange that the Condine report should talk about that without going into any more detail. They don't explain how they know that, you know what I mean. Yeah, they kind of allude to that it's anecdotal information,
but I know what you mean, and it's a fascinating report. But you know, the other thing that makes me think getting into the hoaxes is that you know there will be people and I think this is a lot of what happens who listen to an account like yours and they're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. They go online, they look for black triangles and then they get these videos and they watch these videos and they're like, wow, this is just the same thing that Finnian described, you know,
on the show. This must be real. And I could see how they would, you know, be more open to some of these videos that inevitably for the most part, turned out to be fake or misidentified aircraft or misidentified yeah, either one. But if it's but I think these real fascinating. Are these videos that are real sensational like Secure Team ten. I mean they make them look really cool and fantastic, and you want to have the experience, like we all want to have the experience you had, and so
they want the videos to be real. But they just especially with Secure Team ten and others, are not. Yeah. Yeah, it's a tough. It's a tough thing to I mean, everyone just has to kind of learn for themselves, don't know, they have to watch these videos. I remember when I first started watching UFO videos, you know, so many of them
blew me away. I was, and it's quite exciting. You're just like, wow, there's all of this evidence out there and it's so good and I didn't realize that there were so many good videos, And it's only through sitting down and watching them and actually doing some researching to see whether anyone has debunked them, and if someone has debunked them, look into the details of
why they've debunked them. Is because they actually in most cases, because they really do understand photography and they can explain things in ways that you might not have understood because you haven't got that background in photography or videos to understand just how easy it is to have a mis identification. I mean so easy to
see a plane in the distance. I saw one the other day. It was the sun was just the right angle that the sun was hitting this aeroplane, and it made it look like a much bigger than it was because the light was reflecting straight at me. So it made this plane look like a big ball of light. But then as the light change, you could see it died down and then suddenly I could see, oh, it's actually an
airplane. Well, there are people who filmed these and they call them fake planes because oh, it started as a ball of light and it changed into an aeroplane. But in most cases that's actually it's caused by the camera. The camera is kind of over exposing the light and making it bloom out and look a lot bigger than it is. So yeah, there are so many
pitfalls when you start to get into so many things to misidentify. Chinese lanterns do look kind of like orbs from a distance, So you know, having actually seen what I can one hundred percent say were actually orbs, you know, balls of light with some kind of UFO, you know that they were definitely there's perfect balls of light. And I was seeing them from a distance of about ten or fifteen meters away, so they were definitely UFO in origin,
if you know what I mean. They were actually some kind of an unidentified craft. And I've also seen Chinese lanterns on god knows how many occasions. And about a week or two after my sighting, I was driving a taxi through town and a Chinese lantern floated over the road and it really made me jump for a second. I thought, Oh, it's happening again. Oh my god, it's happening again. And then I calmed down. I was like, no, it's Chinese lantern. So I can totally see why
how these people misidentify things. I've done it myself. A. We we're all capable of doing it, but you've just got to try and learn as much as you can about misidentifications so that you're better placed to identify the real thing when it happened. And then I think it gets well, there's the case of money making, but beyond that, I think people sometimes these videos
go viral and people get really excited. So, for instance, I still get a lot of heck over these pictures from texts that show a ring of lights. And I've demonstrated as many have you probably were involved with us on Facebook, showing that these are reflections from the highway lights are a ring of lights, the same number of lights look exactly the same. And people still get upset that and that we call it that, but that's what they are.
But I think what happens is people post a video and it goes viral and they want to keep that you know, excitement going, and you know, people tell them, oh my gosh, you have a UFO video that
then they're they're so wrapped up in it that again these things. One of the best examples of that recently was the guy who filmed a piece of bubble bath foam floating past his apartment, and there are all sorts of people who jumped on that saying, oh, it's a triangle, it's got lights blinking in it, this and that, this and that, and I'm sure several people told him, no, this is foam from a nearby phone party,
which which was happening a couple of streets away. But by then it had already kind of snowballed and taken its own energy, and he had newspapers ringing. So what's he going to do. Is he going to say ring back the newspapers and say, actually, I don't want to do that interview because someone told me it was a piece of foam. No, he's going to stick with it. He's going to get a bit of publicity, get some attention. It's easy, it's totally easy to see why these things happened.
And like the guy who runs Secure Team ten, I mean, he's making probably actually making a living off this now. So it's hard to go on his channel and say, look, what are you doing. You know, all of his fans stick up for him and he just ignores your posts, so there's not much he can do. Really. Yeah, I mean he's really smart about it too. I mean, at the beginning, he was a little less, a little more transparent, and that he was just making
videos for fun. But now and he's smart in that he just doesn't comment to the debunkers because then he doesn't have to. Instead, he can post these fake videos, the believers go wild, and he makes money off of YouTube, just like Third Phase of Moon found out, they make a living off of their videos. They make these fake videos, people go wild and
it works for him. But you know, and I want to ask you this because you live in the UK, especially lately, and I've kind of even said that right now ufology, we're kind of in the era of the UK tabloids because they are reprinting all of these fakes, even from Secure Team ten, like they don't even care, and they're getting a lot of hits from it. And I think that they're, you know, taking advantage of all of this activity that these sort of videos create. I mean, how
did the UK tabloids happen? I mean, how did these become you know, some of the bigger news And it's interesting that I think, you know, growing up, I've always known that the UK tabloids have a reputation for being trashy, you know. I mean, I'm sure they have the same reputation in other countries, but kind of being trashy and not really reporting anything
worthwhile and just going for shock value and that sort of thing. And then, of course, in the last kind of five to ten years, we've seen newspapers have started to kind of die out because because the Internet is taking people's attention away from newspapers. So I think newspaper sales have dropped significantly, especially over the last five years, And so I think what's happened is that the tabloids have started to launch their own websites to try and get some of
that traffic back and make some advertising revenue. And because they're tabloids and they don't really care what they print, they have seen that UFO videos get a lot of traffic, so they have just basically decided to start reposting UFO videos. Doesn't matter if they're real, it doesn't matter if they're posted by a known hoax channel. They're just going to post them anyway because they know it's
going to get traffic going through their websites. And it's not just UK traffic, it'll be worldwide traffic going through their websites, so people like the Daily Express, the Daily Star. I'm trying to remember the Sun. I think the Sun. Oh, the Sun is one of the worst in this country. Yeah, so they've always had bad reputations and now they're just just cashing
in on traffic. So they have UFOs and girls in bikinis or in or or not having bikinis on rrible and that is drawing the people and keeping them. And it's it's sad because often then what we've seen lately, unfortunately, is then some of these stories get picked up by the mainstream media and go viral once the information has been often distorted or it was bad information to begin
with. Yeah, it's a shame though, because I mean, I've been in some serious debates, shall we say, with people on Facebook where I just can't believe how gullible some people are when they'll stick up for a particular piece of evidence or a video which you've just proven outright is fake or hoaxed or a misidentification, and they just will not back down. And honestly, I've kind of I can totally understand where they're coming from. Why why is
it that we're in this quandary of people not trusting someone like myself. Well, it's because they think there's a cover up going on that and that there are people like myself hired to debunk this stuff. There are shields on Facebook, right who are hired so that they go on as soon as there's a good video, they'll go and tell you it's a hoax, just to stop
you from believing that it's real. And why are people so mistrusting? Well, because I think there really is some sort of a cover up going on, So that all of this mistrust and these kind of factions that have that have kind of split in upology. You got people who are kind of extreme believers who will just believe anything, and you've got the more skeptical side of
it. Why is it that we have so much mistrust? I think it's it stems from the fact that they're genuinely are some big lies being told to us? Wow, yeah, that's not being told at all. So the natural response, the natural response is to be suspicious of someone who comes along and says this isn't real, that video's fate. So that's a bit of a tough place to be. What can you do, You've just got to
be as polite as you can and state your side of the argument. Yeah, and try to stick to logic and reason and hope that and you know that they'll be bastions of groups or people who feel similar and which we do in the UFO group. So we're pretty much out of time. But send me the link to the video analysis you did and I'll put that in the story. But yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing it. What a fascinating sighting. It's incredible. Yeah, no,
no problem. It's nice to speak to you finally, Alejandroft all these months kind of speaking to you on Facebook. Yeah, it was really great. So all right, thank you so much for being on the show. Thanks mate, have a nice evening you too. Thank you so much to Finnian for joining us on the show. What an amazing sighting and it's really cool.
Especially having known Finnian for months now and confernced with him on Facebook and seeing how he analyzed is in a skeptical and grounded way other UFO sightings, it makes it even more amazing to hear this incredible experience that he had, so and baffling. It's just what the hell is going on out there? People? Weird stuff, So thank you so much Tafinian for sharing that information. By the way, he mentioned how he has this YouTube video where he
analyzes and talks about his sighting. I'm gonna post a link to that in the story here on our web page, so be sure if you're listening on blog talk or if you're go to openminds dot tv to the radio section and you'll be able to get a link to that video. In fact, you know what, I'll even embed it below the interview so you guys can watch it right there from the website. So go to openminds dot tv and definitely
check out that video. I'll also post it in the open minds UFO Facebook group that we've been talking about, and that's how I met Vinnian in the first place, as you know, so go check that out. I implore you all to join our group. Like I said earlier, there is a lot of great conversation that goes in there, and we have a lot of great admins for that. You know a lot of great people in there, a lot of researchers. Nick Pope is commenting in there often. He's the
guy who worked for the British government. You know other people who worked for the government. You know, Bruce mcabee is commenting in there. He worked as a physicist and optical physicist for the Navy. He's in there commenting. Lee Spiegel of the Huffington Post is in there. Ben Hansen, a factor fake, is in there. You know, some of the other people like Chase Kletzky, who's on the show A Move On Investigators. She's in there
commenting quite a bit. And then of course we have the great admins like that I mentioned, such as Karen King and Mark D'Antonio is one of the admins. Angelo is one of the admins. Angelo's really great. He's like Vinnie and he's in there doing a great job analyzing these pictures and videos with everybody. Dave Blank is in there. He volunteered at the UFO Congress. Some of you might have met him there. Great guy. He's also from
the UK. I think he said he was born in Germany, but he lived in the UK most of his life and has been over here and now it lives in Arizona, so I get to see him a little more. But anyway, we have a great bunch of admins in there who are helping out. And Richard Hoffman, who we had on just recently, is the guy who he's also an admin. He's really busy with his other move on dude, but he's in there commenting as well. Just a lot of great people. So it's only been open a few months, but it's growing.
We already have a couple thousand people in there, and so it'd be great to have you in there and you can keep up on the stories and see some of the really interesting analysis and join in on the conversation. That's what those groups are all about, is discussion. So thank you very much to Finn. Be sure and check that out. And also thank you to Martin Willis for joining us at the beginning of the show. Of course he does podcast UFO, another podcast on this sort of topic where we do the opposite.
I joined him for the news and then he does his interviews over there, so join him for that. I also want to thank Caleb Hanks for doing the introduction and music. And I want to remind you of a couple things. First of all, we're going to be posting speakers for the UFO Congress really soon. We're also going to be taking registration for the UFO really
Congress really soon, like in the next couple of weeks. And this is really exciting, and I'm gonna be pushing this and You're gonna hear this over and over again, because this is going to be the main thing I'm pushing going forward, not only the Open Mind's UFO Report, which you can find on YouTube, but also all of our lectures. So at our conference, you know, we record our lectures, and to be honest, I don't know that anybody records their lectures at the quality that we do. And I
say that not just to brag. I'm bragging about I guess a bit about what we do. But we have a lot of expensive equipment in order to record these. Plus we have our extremely talented video guy, Michael Klein, who heads all of that up and then he masters these videos. So and it's important for us to docum meant these lectures because these lectures are really important.
I mean, these are This is UFO research by a bunch of different researchers who work really hard to discover this information and then they share their incredible findings every year at the UFO Congress. Some of these speakers have already unfortunately passed away. Others of these speakers you know, you just rarely see and we'll probably not see again. People such as Bob Lazaar or Jacques Vallet. These are people who just don't do UFO conferences period and that we were lucky
enough to get them to come to our conference and do talk. So we've recorded this. Plus there's people like George Knapp who do amazing work but rarely speak themselves. In fact, George is saying he's just too busy to really do this ever again, and you don't see him much. But we've Travis Walton and some of the witnesses who saw this that you know him supposedly getting taken by this UFO, and we have videos of more videos of the witnesses
than anybody has out there besides the Jennifer Stein's documentary. She's got a lot of the witnesses on that too, But we have full lectures, in full you know, panel discussions with these guys. But we have all of these videos that we now have up on our streaming site. So if you go to open Minds dot tv and look at the video portal, you're gonna have access to all of these videos. So for one low monthly price, you can look at just tons and tons and tons of videos that you will have
access to, and it's gold. I mean for UFO research, this really is some of the best stuff out there. I mean, there's this amazing lecture from this guy about strange alien cases, these incredible cases. This guy was so great. His name was Alejandro. Now I am tooting my own horn on that one. But you can see those lectures and more. Antonio Hunee is he who worked for Open Minds. You can ask anybody. He
had some of the best lectures out there, some great information. Anyway, I could go on and on and on about the great lectures, but check this out. Just go to the site and at least look to see who's up there. And I think that once you see the names up there, you'll be like, oh am gee, I need to subscribe. So go ahead, do it, subscribe and be part of the club and it'll be a lot of fun. So it just we do work really really hard to
provide all of that information and the cost is minimal. The cost for the conference. Really we are very priced conscious to keep the prices low. And even though we don't and I say this over and over again, people complain, what do you charge money for all these man it should be free. Well, you know that would be nice, buddy, But if you saw the price take on the camra on one camera, you know, of the cameras that we use, or some of this equipment. People don't realize all
of this equipment that you need this expensive equipment to do. You know, this quality video, it's really expensive. So in fact, if you go to my Facebook, you can also see a three sixty of our office the three This is cool. I got a three sixty camera where you can scroll around like Google Street and you can see inside of our office and see what it looks like. But all of this stuff is really expensive. Luckily, my boss has an interest and he doesn't make money off of this. He
spends money to get this information out to everybody. So so I just help us recover some of that money, so hopefully we can stay open longer. And also, you know, enjoy it, because that's really why we do it. We put it all together so we can get it out there so you all can view it and enjoy it and learn and get some of this information and knowledge that you're hungry for, because unfortunately, you know, there's just not in our opinions. You know, enough outlets for this sort of
news. People are afraid of it. They think it's silly, or they think that they're afraid that they're ridicule, but it's really important stuff. I think you all would agree. This is a genuine mystery and it's fascinating and it has an impact on our culture, and that's why we need to pay attention and that's why we exist to get that information out there because no one else is going to do it. This Hillary Clinton talking about UFOs has got
the mainstream media getting some information out there, but still very little. They're really just talking about what she said, not real research. They're touching on it a little bit, but we're getting more of that out to you, so which is important. It's great stuff. So thank you all so much for listening. I mean, we're just overjoyed that we have so many listeners to the podcast and it's a lot of fun to put these together and talk to you all. So thank you all so much for joining and we will
talk to you again next week. Audio's Mood Chattos, your motionless sound in the Glass Trees, Hurrid