Dr. Michael Masters, UFOs Could Be Us From the Future

Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. This is your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin the Rambling Man Willis Ramblin. Yes, on the road again, yep, once again. You're always out there and about there. Well, it's because I live in a remote area in Maine, where you know, you have to go somewhere to be somewhere. So that's what I'm doing today. You have to go somewhere to be somewhere. I get it though. Actually yeah, yeah, Well luckily I'm

not far from some civilization, but it is. It is pretty remote. You know. It's three hours, three to four hours to get to Boston, and that's where I do all my work. So that's that's what's going on. Yep, what a commute. Yeah, too much. Anyway, let's see, we've got UFOs to talk about, lots of stuff to talk about. I had. Have you had doctor Michael Masters on your show? I believe you have. Oh I have. What a nice guy he is. I really really enjoy talking to him. Mm hmm. Yep. This

is the first time I've had him on the show. I wanted to wait till after the UFO Congress because he is I was one of speakers at the twenty nineteen International UFO Congress and you can get his DVD on the UFO Congress store. You can also watch him. I'll make sure and get this up by the time of the show. But you can see him on the video on demand at video dot Ufocongress dot com, or you could go to Ufocongress dot com and you can click the link for the videos on demand and see

him there. But there are several videos up on the video on demand. But who is this Michael Masters. I'm so excited about his topic because I really feel and have felt that this is a topic that should be given more consideration in the UFO field. And that is you know, his lecture title was could Alien simply be Us? But from the future? And he actually has a book out there on this called Identified Flying Objects A Multidisciplinary Scientific Approach

to the UFO Phenomena. And there are a couple phrases in there in particular that are important, such as, you know, the multidisciplinary scientific approach because like a lot of scientists have said, and a lot of researchers have said, you know, people that are part of the scientific coalition for UAP research.

You know, a group with like Robert Pollin Rich Hoffman have talked about, is that really you need a whole lot of different scientists to look at all the different perspectives and including his, which is could aliens be from the future. Now, he already is credentialed and to speak about he has expertise

to speak about this. He's a professor of biological anthropology. So he looks at it from the perspective of, Okay, here's the evolution of human beings, and if you were to continue that evolution, you know, we would look a lot like aliens that are described. He also gets into the physics and you know, okay, if these are people from the future, what would the physics be and what would a device be like that would be able to get us in the past. These are just some of kind of the

bigger categories of topics that he talks about. But when he breaks all of these things down, it's extraordinary in his research that he finds so many correlations and similar you know, similarities to what people describe to what you know, the science shows would be kind of humans or the technology, the evolution of the technology and the biology. So it's fascinating. I absolutely, I highly

highly recommend people watch his lecture because it's very rich in information. In this interview we break down some of that, but there's so much and all of it. I think it's really important and it makes his argument stronger even than I expected. So I really think people need to pay attention to this. I can't stress how important I think this is, because really I really feel looking at his information, it's difficult to dismiss this perspective, and I think

it's just as valid a possibility. Perhaps not for all of the phenomena, but for much of it then, but it's just as valid as the extraterrestrial hypothesis. I agree one hundred percent. I didn't think I would before I started talking with him, but I'm telling you what. He makes such a great argument. And by the way, I got to hang out with him one night out in Phoenix and we sat and talked for hours and hours, and what a nice gentleman he is. He's really down to earth and very

easy to talk to. But he is also highly intelligent. His father was a veterinarian. He had this, you know, interest of his study from early on and up, and he's he makes the best argument for it of anyone I've ever heard. He said, it's not unique to him. It's not, you know, something that someone else has not tried to attend to in the past. But his thoughts and the way he's thought it all the way out, all the way down to the skin pigment, everything is really

very very interesting. Yeah, yeah, it's all really great. He's he's really funny too. I mean, he comes across as a total nerd. He's a professor, and he is, I mean, because he's super smart and he's really into the details. But yeah, actually you catch him on the side and he's really funny, and he's a really cool dude. Like he's in a rock band. He's just a cool dude. He is Yep, awesome. So well to the interview coming up that people will be able

to check out. I think you're going to greatly enjoy it. I did, and I can't wait to talk to him more. And I think I'm so excited that he has, you know, kind of come out and felt comfortable writing this book and doing these lectures because I think it's really important. Yes, I want to say something. I don't know if you mentioned this

on your show. But I said to him when I was in Phoenix hanging out with him, and I said, well, what do you think about scientists and you know, not taking any of this seriously goes shame on them? And I thought that was like, really, really good. And he said that he's actually approached a few I can't remember the names, but he's approached a few people and said, what's wrong with you? Why don't you at least take a look at this, you know, topic, So,

you know, good for him for that being an advocate. Basically, yeah, yeah, that's yet And it's a great argument. I mean, Heinig would make that argument essentially, he wouldn't put it as bluntly, but I

think it deserves to be put bluntly like that. But he would point out that, you know, you're not doing your duty as a scientist by ignoring phenomena you can't explain just because it can't according to you know, you're unjustified conclusion as it can't happen, right, So exactly, blickly, it seems things are changing though, Yeah, yeah, you see it moving that way a little bit. Sure, yep, it sure is. So one of the reasons things are changing is because of all the UFOs in the news,

lots of positive movement forward. Of course, the government being more open, a bit more open at least to the idea, and so it's really exciting. So I'm assuming that some of the news that you may have for US is along these lines. Well, actually it's negative the other way around. But I do want to address the negative part of it. And I don't want to say really negative. It's it's just it's about Edward Snowden. This is you know, this came out through CNN that he searched the CIS networks

for proof that aliens exists, and here's what he found. And you know, he goes through it. You know that they they start out this article as you know, for all the area fifty one stormers, chemtrail believers and climate change deniers. So he's kind of like this article kind of groups the you know, people that have thoughts about UFOs in kind of that whole fringe

area. Again, it kind of like a step backwards in a way, and it said Edward Snowden has searched the depths of the US intelligence networks and

can report the conspiracy theories are not true. As a former employee of the CIA and contractor for the National Security Security Agency, Snowden had access to some of the nation's most closely held secrets, and like all curious mind, like any curious mind with access to the CIA's version of Google might do, he went to search for the answers to some of the society's most pressing questions. And it turns out the US government is not aware of any intelligent extraterrestrial life.

He says, for the record, this is quote. As far as I could tell, aliens have never contacted Earth, or at least they haven't contacted US intelligence. Soden writes this and his recent memoir memoir Permanent Record. So I want to address this for a couple of in a couple of different ways. First of all, I don't know if he had, if any of this, if any of this information was part of the intelligence, if it could be compartmentalized where he couldn't he couldn't easily access, that's, you

know, one question. Or if there was information, you know, according to Chris Mellen, when I talked to him, you know, a few years ago, he said he wouldn't be surprised if anything was put out into the private sector. So it couldn't be part of you know, an intelligence, a congression, subpoena or anything you know, in the future, just to get it and you know, kind of like in the secret server type of thing, you know, to get it away and protected, you know.

And I'm not saying that any of these things have indeed happened, and I'm not saying that Edward Snowden was wrong in his search and he's wrong by his thoughts on what he found. I'm just saying that it shouldn't be considered a closed case in my opinion, and that it's possible that the information is there hard to find, or the information isn't a different, you know,

compartment, so to speak. Yeah, I agree with you. He you know, from what I understand, the information that he revealed was not all that high level. It was classified information, but you know, there are levels of classification and it were the information he had access to was not some of the higher level stuff, but still, you know, stuff we didn't want to share because as we saw from the releases, you know, it

was much of it was embarrassing to the United States. So and I actually watched his interview with Joe Rogan on this topic, and he was essentially telling Joe, I know you want there to be aliens, but at least he couldn't find it. But he said something interesting about conspiracies. He's like, I'm not saying I don't want people to think that I'm trying to say conspiracies

aren't real, because they are. I mean, all of this were conspiracies, right, And he was talking about how, you know, practically everything, there's so many conspiracies, and what he means by that is people conspiring to do something that they might not want others to know about. That's kind

of how things work. That happens a lot. That's why we have NDA's, that's why we have but h So that was his point, and his point was that at least he couldn't find anything on any of those topics, and he believed at least when it came to aliens that he feels like he sniffed around enough where he would have seen some sort of information were there to be any. But you know, that's the thing is one person. I

know you can talk to many experts on this. When it comes to programs, and people have talked about, well, you know, if there's special access programs, then he might not know about them, and that's true, you know, black projects essentially, but other people make the point that he also didn't come up with a tip. He didn't know about a tip. So you know it's right because he he what is he been in Russia now

for what is that five years? Four or five years? So this is so pre prior to when he left and went to Hawaii wherever it was, or trying to with all that information that was a tip was in place, right, Is that what you're saying, Yes, that's what I'm saying. Well, a tip's been around since two thousand and seven, and you know, he apparently didn't wasn't aware of a tip h and a tip wasn't even really uh some of the informations classified from what I understand, but it's not

really you know, much of it wasn't. You know, we're getting some of it. We've gotten some of it in in FOIA requests. And also you know the letter that Reid had put out where he requested that a tip get special access program uh certificate or I mean essentially getting that level. They were denied. So yeah, so those are some good points. I think that it's to me, it is telling that he found that it shows that

at that level there's not a bunch of conversation going on. I think it shows personally more along the lines of kind of the model that most of the people in the government have have kind of given us and including to the stars, is that you know, there's it's kind of like and this is what I've gotten for a long time. This is what John Alexander has always said, is that the UFO issue is kind of a hot potato. It's ignored. They totally ignore it. There have been, you know, little investigations

here and there. At even Harry Reid when he started a tip, they wanted to hide any inquiries they put into it because they didn't want to be embarrassed by it. So Harry Reid was able to successfully keep the project under the radar. So any other projects, it must not be too difficult for them to keep them under the radar if Harry Reid was able to do it with a tip, So yeah, he might not know. It's interesting information,

but like you said, it's certainly not conclusive. But I can see the tendency of some journalists to go there to kind of pretend like, you know, oh yeah, there must not be anything to this because Snowden couldn't find anything, because that's a fun easy way for them to get some to write a story, whereas you know, it's not really completely accurate of the situation. If this this story came out the day after that, I debated

Seth shostand from SETI on UFOs. Now, if it had come out the same day, he would have used that as a tool, I know, one hundred percent. Well, there's your proof exactly. They don't exist, so and it will be used as a tool. And you know, one of the things I didn't even think about that you brought up is there are different levels of a classificate of you know, some of something being classified. What is it the ultra whatever they call it, the top classification. I'm

not really sure what it's called. But he did not have access to any of the higher end classified documents. Is that so? Well? Not all? He did have some. I mean he did have from what I understand, he did have access to some programs because he was working on certain things that he had clearances for that, but not all. Like he had clearances for some of the stuff that he was really concerned about, and he revealed

such as the company's you know, gathering information on Americans. And that's what his problem was, that he you know, felt that that was all illegal at technical was and that you know, people need to know about it. But yeah, but just because you have you know, access, you're not going to have He even makes the point to say, there's a big deal that that to not have others know what you're working on, that it's a

big deal. You know that if you have top secret clearance, that you not share with other top secret clear holders what you're doing, that they don't ask you clear and that they don't share that information, the need to know

type of thing. I've talked to my brother in law who had a high clearance level at Los ALMOL slabs, and he basically told me the same thing, right, you know, that they wouldn't you know, even though someone you know therese I forget how many thousands of people work there, but even though someone had the same you know, clearance, that they would not discuss they were not able to discuss anything that didn't include the need to know.

Yeah. Yeah, and there are you know, yeah, there are like SAP projects that are off the books, so that are for instance, not mentioned in the budget and so yeah, you know, those are going to be very important. There's are going to be things that very limited numbers of people know about. So it's possible that there are, But it doesn't even really matter because in the to the star scenario, let's say to the stars, what they've revealed or what they've gotten, or I should say a tip

what you know kind of the what Alizonda is shared. Even if that is all there is, it demonstrates there was an active investigation and is an ongoing active investigation and now increased investigations, it seems from the Navy of the UFOs. So that argument that used to be made that the government doesn't take it seriously is now blown out of the water. That's right, should people like Shostak make that argument? Obviously people did see, uh, there was an

intro there, there was a need to look into this stuff. For instance, during this talk I had with Seth, he said something about, you know, he has friends that know exactly what have looked at those videos and know exactly what they are. You know, you know, he had he had all the answers, and then he said, what I think the best zing that I was able to do in that whole talk because he said, to me, what in the UFO world is the evidence that you could put

in the Smithsonian? I said, I just said to him, well, could you put dark matter in the Smithsonian? And so anyway, he said, I forgot what he said, something about the rotation of the universe or something. I don't know, But anyway, but you make a great point. And you know, his argument about the rotation of the universe or whatever he decided to spew is a hypothesis. It's not even that it's you know, it's a it's kind of a hypothesis. It's he's giving you evidence that

there's a mystery. He's doing the same thing that we're doing in UFOs exactly, is that there's a there's evidence for an unknown phenomena that's trying to be described. Yes, it's such a great question that you asked, and I think it. You know, I can't wait to listen to the debate because I haven't yet, and I'm so excited to listen because it sounds like you

did an excellent job. That question you asked is an excellent question because yeah, there's a phenomena that's a preserved we don't know what it is, we place this term dark matter on it. Even the lady who was the first to identify the phenomena of the expanding universe does not believe in dark matter. She doesn't believe that's the answer. Yeah, even the scientists who discovered that. So he may be saying, oh, well, this is why there's

dark matter. Well, the scientists who discovered the phenomena that is answered by this potential of the existence of dark matter doesn't believe in that. So it's exactly the same. This is a scientific question that needs to be answered, and why they don't want to take on that challenge is an interesting question. I don't understand. I think that he's worried that and it may be more

of a marketing pr thing. They may be worried that it will take a lot of the energy or focus away from them because it's more exciting to look into, you know, more potentially alien evidence. I don't know, but hopefully that's what happens, and that is slowly what's happening. We just need

more science to take this seriously and exactly. That may be frustrating for him, but hey, things change, and I think, you know, if he was smart, he would get in front of this and they would embrace the whole idea of all of these unanswered questions, because then they could play a pretty big role in it instead of just kind of frustratingly give some uncharacteristically terrible, unscientific answers to these questions. Well, I'm surprised, you know,

Seth actually hasn't retired. I had no idea he was seventy six years old. But he's still at it, and I don't think he feels like he's going to be going away anytime soon. But I do believe that, you know, if someone fits into his shoes, it's probably going to be along the same line, you know. I mean, for instance, they have to have a drive, a real serious drive constantly for funding study for

one. So who knows what they'll be getting in there, But it would be difficult for them to do if they were citing on the side that, you know, UFOs could have something to it. I think it would be tougher for them to get their funding. Yeah, maybe, yep. There are a lot of concerns, a lot of real world issues. It's always very complicated. It's more than black and white. It's always you know, it's really hard, and we have to understand all of these little issues.

It may seem boring, or it may seem not as exciting or or sexy as talking about the craft or the creatures. But if we truly want to understand the nuances of how this affects our culture and how we can more profoundly and you know, affect a change in culture, then we all need to really understand all of these various nuances. So that's what that's what's exciting about

all of this. That's what's exciting about you know, I think the kind of niche that maybe you and I are some others are in here and looking and examining on some of all of that because we also then get kind of insight into the fruits of those efforts, which is really exciting. Over the years, because there has been so much progress in you know, the public and the mainstream accepting this topic. I think so too. It's a real good time. I'm glad I'm around during this time of it. Yeah,

you know, I really really am. How are we doing on time? We've gone over, so we better end it here. But it was a great discussion. Thank you so much for joining again. Absolutely my pleasure. And let's go ahead and get to our interview with Michael Masters right after this break. I am happy to welcome to the show for the first time. Michael Masters. Hello, Hello, good to be here. Thanks for having

me on. Yes, our pleasure, my pleasure. So you had a fascinating lecture at the recent twenty nineteen International UFO Congress and it was something I was really looking forward to. It's a topic I love, and you know, someone with your qualifications and actual biological anthropologist, you know, speaking on this was very exciting for me because this is kind of an area I feel isn't pursued enough. And we'll get into that. But I guess what was

it like for you? Given your background? Do you do lectures on other topics a professor? So you do them often? Yeah, every Tuesday and Thursday for about three hours. I give lectures on various topics and always related to anthropology. I teach a number of different classes from intro anthropology up to upper level macroeconomic economic anthropology. Also teach forensic anthropology and it's kind of a

fun class. A lot of osteology and anatomy, and we bury a skeleton out behind campus here and have the students dig it up and investigate a murder scene. So yeah, and then I also go to academic conferences. The big one in my field is the American Association of Physical Anthropologists meeting, and I just submitted a couple abstracts to present down there in LA in April, I believe it is. So yeah, I'm doing a lot of lectures both in and out of the UFO topic, but it's great too to bring in

the anthropology side. A lot of what I talked about in my lecture at the UFO Congress was very much related to what I talk about my classes. There's a lot of overlap there, for sure. And what was it like, I mean, were you kind of nervous to bring to come talk to a UFO conference audience? Did you know what to expect? Well, I'd just given a talk at the Muffan fiftieth anniversary meeting about a month before,

and that I didn't really know what to expect going into that one. That was my first big conference talking about this stuff, and it was interesting. There was a very stark divide between the audience and the other people at the conference who were presenting and doing panels and things. The audience was tremendously receptive, and there was just a great, big crowd that gathered after the talk and a lot of interest, but just so much skepticism and I would say

bias on behalf of a lot of the other presenters. It was strange. There was even a sort of a confrontation, I guess you could say, in one of the panels that I was on, somebody just said something very blatantly biased and then took the microphone away and said it on the other side of him, so I couldn't even respond to what he said. But it was very different coming down to Phoenix for the International UFO Congress. It was

much more open minded, just a really great experience. So it was tremendously refreshing for me coming from one to the other, because I was ready to be met with criticism and skepticism again, but it was quite the opposite. There was a really just great energy and the sense of camaraderie and collaboration at that particular event. So so yeah, I was a little nervous, but

for probably different reasons than most people would probably think. Well, it's a very interesting observation, especially right now, because you know, at the Congress. Of course we do. That's one of our are deciding factors are people who essentially are very professional, work well with others, and that's actually more, almost more important than their topic, at least that their topic is something

they're honestly looking at. You know, it may be wild or fringe, but if it's as long as you know, they're not deceiving people and they're honestly, you know, trying to figure things out, that's what we're looking for. But in this field right now, you're kind of a disruptor, and there's other disruptors, and it's interesting to that. I think what happens is when you're challenging others' worldviews, especially those who are kind of on the

stage professing and trying to convince people of their worldviews. Then I could see why those people in particular, who are trying to push it their thing are are going to be a little more They're going to feel a little more infringed upon by someone like coming in and then come across as combative and yeah, no, And it's funny too because I realized that, you know, but it's different too because I'm not coming into it trying to proclaim some sort of

truth. I'm just saying, I think we need to look seriously at the question of time travel and human evolution and cultural evolution, and could these individuals be us and putting forth as much scientific evidence for that as I can, but not discounting any other theory. I think with a phenomenon this complex, to consider everything and especially valid hypotheses related to this phenomenon. So yeah, it's unfortunate when people see me as a disruptor because I'm not trying to take

away from anything anybody else is doing. I'm just trying to offer up what I believe is a rather parsimonious explanation for what's going on. But I also understand that knee jerk reaction to it. I think a lot of them sort of expected me to, I guess, kind of cower and hide. But what I've been met with from members of the UFO community only certain members. A lot of people are very open minded, but it's nothing compared to what

we face in academia. I mean, people are always at each other's throats and trying to cut each other down, and especially in paleoanthropology. If you look at any of the research and the just all out brawls that form over questions of new homin and species and how we designate certain species and tool types.

It's it's brutal, so coming from that. Really, I've got pretty thick skin, so I'm not I'm not worried about it doesn't bother me at all, but it is it is nice to see and to interact with really open minded people as well. M hmm. Well, I think the other you know, thing about your talk is that which can be I guess, you know, a bit more challenging for some, but which is so appreciated.

I of course was excited to hear someone talk on the topic, but little did I know how thorough, how complete, and how much work you did. It's astonishing. In fact, you know, I really want to hit on a bunch of points today, but it would be impossible to hit on everything because you looked at this from so many angles, and I think found in every position that you looked at this from, you found credible information

that supports the possibility. Yeah, I mean one thing I've tried to do, Like it says in the title of the book, it's a multidisciplinary scientific approach. If I just looked at it from the human evolution side, I'd be missing the opportunity to tie together a lot of things that also help explain

this phenomenon. So yeah, I really tried to bring into it evidence and not just you know, something that came out and popular mechanics or something, but real peer reviewed scientific research from academic journals from astrobiology and astronomy and physics in addition to those scientific studies from anthropology, because I think really coming at it from all of these different fields and providing a holistic approach and understanding for

this phenomenon it's going to take that. It's going to take a lot of people working together too, across different disciplines. I can only do so much as an anthropologist with some background and training in physics and astronomy, but not that not being my primary field of study. I can put things out there, but not to the same extent that a physicist could or an actual astrobiologist.

So I'm hoping that that as an academic presenting these things, that we can bring more people in, more scientists, more academics from those various fields who can help build upon what I've sort of touched on from these different areas and really try to move it forward collectively. So they started with your book, Identified Flying Objects, a multidisciplinary scientific approach to the UFO phenomena, which is making me chuckle because I remember that was pretty funny. I'll let you

finish the story there, I get. I mean, you know, you get too tired. I'm pretty much, you know, kind of running on empty at the beginning of the conference, because setting it up is enough. I'm usually able to flow through pretty well, but my brain just was struggling so much when I did your introduction, and I couldn't believe, you know, and I get prepared and I'm ready, but the title of your book

just would not, for some reason sit well in my brain. So yeah, I just really kind of stumbled through that, and I thought it was great. It was a great way to introduce the talk because I like to hit the stage with a lighthearted mentality, and that's a good way to start with a little chuckle and keep that going. So no, I thought it was actually really fortuitous good because I figured, you know, you seem to have a great sense of humor, so I figured, hopefully it doesn't.

I don't think he'll mind too much more. Some people might have got real upset, so I thought it was great, So thank you for that. I apologize for screwing up the book, but it all started with the book. So how did you come up with the idea to actually write a book on this? Well, I was actually very young. I was eight years old, wow, And I learned about a UFO encounter my dad had before I was born, and I just heard him telling the story, and not

long after that he got communion by Willie Strieber. And I remember seeing the cover of the book back then. I think they might change the cover since, but I had this sort of your archetypal alien figure on it, with the big head, the big eyes, the small face, and I just kind of had this mental image that I've used on various things on my website.

In the book, in chapter one, it shows sort of a simplified version of this, but just an early hominin form, a modern human form, and then this alien form, and it just sort of made me wonder if there could be a connection there. And what's really interesting about it.

I haven't mentioned this before because it's just something that has occurred to me recently, but I've been contacted by quite a few people even just a little comment on Facebook or Twitter where people tell me they've had the same idea, and without reading the book or knowing where it came from, for me, saying that they were eight years old when they thought of this too, And I thought, this is just a really funny coincidence that so many people were the

same age when the same sort of thought occurred. And I'm sure it's just a coincidence, but it's been really funny to see that in the last few months people just reaching out and saying, Hey, I've thought of this too. I think it makes a lot of sense. And I was eight when I thought of this. I don't know, it's just kind of a funny thing that I've noticed lately. So you've been into the whole idea and thinking

about it for since you were a kid. Yeah, And it's why I went to school for physics initially during my undergrad years, and then switched anthropology about halfway through. I think I was a junior late sophomore in college.

No, I knew I wanted to pursue it over the long term, and I knew in order to do it right and to really be able to understand it myself and to be able to communicate about it to others that I needed to have a pretty broad and deep knowledge of the different aspects of this phenomenon. So yeah, it's really been a lifelong pursuit in that regard. Well, so, I guess throughout your academic career as well, you've given it

thought. I have. Yeah, I didn't talk about it much just because of the stigma associated with and I feel that fortunately that's finally starting to change. When I was a weird kid in the back the class asking about the time, no nobody even knew I was there, I mean alone with you or with friends, you know, Oh, my friends knew what I was doing and why I was doing it, but in an academic setting. And I don't feel like I was pulling the wool over anybody's eyes or anything.

I was just there to learn things that I needed to know to be able to do what ultimately I wanted to do. But within you know, every project I worked on, every dig I went on, I was just doing things in the same way anybody else was, but but deeper down, and you know, within the recesses of my mind, I was always sort of thinking about thinking about all of it. In the context of this extra tempestrial model, the possibility that they're just are are distant descendants coming back through time.

So and especially it was cool going on digs and working in museums holding the ancestors of our species, three point five million year old ancestors in my hands, and just the fossilized skulls of really distant ancestors the tools they made. It really puts them in perspective and gave me a really good sense of just how much more we could learn if we had time travel technology now as modern palaeoanthropologists, that we wouldn't have to just hold these broken, fragmented pieces

of the past. We could just look at them, observe them, combine cultural anthropology with biological anthropology, and get a much deeper sense of what we were really doing beyond just the material culture and the fossilized evidence. So yeah, it's been fun. I have no regrets about picking the anthropology side of things, because, in addition to all of the opportunities to travel, it's

just a really interesting field look at humans. You understand so much more about our behaviors and our political and economic interactions from studying the very long history of these things and how how we got to be the way we are today and looking at the past. I think it's a really important field in general. So I'm really happy that I decided to study aliens, I guess because I really enjoyed being an anthropologist, and yeah, I still do. Well.

It shows that, you know, you've been thinking about this for a long time, because you know, you have so many things that you touch upon, and we'll start to get into some of these, but a little bit it seems like the beginning of your argument is, you know, essentially we're seeing these craft that seem to be advanced technology and you know, figuring out

what could these be. A lot of people feel and some people argue, you know, if you have a Buyoutkams Raiser, that extraterrestrial advanced extraterrestrial civilization would be the best hit. However, you're arguing that, and you justify that argument. You know throughout your lecture that the possibility of humans from the future is just as if not more likely than extraterrestrials from another civilization. And

so maybe, for instance, because either one is a stretch. You know, I think that that at least you and I could argue that and I think other listeners would would agree, especially those scientific minded. And this is a problem that scientists such as those with SETI layout as an issue, is that it's just really difficult, and one of the difficulties is the actual physics

of it. The distances are so far. Yeah. Well, in the context of Oarkham's raiser and the principle of parsimony, I would I would definitely advocate that this extra tempestrial model is more parsimonious, especially compared to the extraterrestrial model, and not even outside of the vast distances and the issues of time dilation and traveling those distances. And we know we're here. We are here. We have very good evidence that we exist on this planet and have for

a long period of time. So instead of saying that we're looking for something elsewhere that we don't know whether that exists or not instantly, this is a simpler explanation because we are here, and we have evolved, and we have changed morphologically and culturally, and if those same changes continue into the future,

we are likely to have more advanced technology than we have today. We're likely to have more rounded neurocrania and smaller, more retracted faces and larger eyes and last body hair and all of these things that are so ubiquitously described in instances of close encounters. We are likely to have those same traits just based on

six million year evolutionary trends with us on this planet. So already it's a simpler, more parsimonious explanation because it's talking about something that's tangible now that we

can see and observe. But the question of extraterrestrials, Yeah, there's the issue of the distances between Solar systems, the unlikelihood that we would have an advanced humanoid species, one that's so similar to ourselves bipedalism and the same characteristics that we have in our neurocranium and our post cranial anatomy, that they would evolve those same traits at the same time on a planet close enough to us that we would have mutual contact and the opportunity for visitation, or that they

would do all of these things. They would find us and then not even make their presence known, not say hey, we're here, we're from this Solar system and we wanted to be friends. That's never happened. It's always this sort of covert, very elusive sort of interaction, which would make more sense in the context of time and potential disruptions or over complications that can happen

when you connect different periods of time. So yeah, I would very much stand by that that it is in the context of Vacom's raisor a simpler explanation which all makes a lot of sense, and it continues to make even more

sense when you break some of this stuff down. So in particular that the biology that for instance, you go over the bipedalism and how influential that has been on affecting kind of modern humans, but including you know, the shape of our head and the size of our head and the shape of our face, and how if you took people in the past and you look at people today, and if the trend continues on the effects that our bipedal lasam has

had, then in the future our characteristics that are more like what we report as aliens looking like in particular little gray guys with the big eyes and the big heads, that we will continue to look more like that. Yeah, Yeah, And that's the thing is I really tried to avoid any sort of

speculation about what might happen between now and then in our future. And I've heard this a lot, and back when I was a kid, you know, drinking some beers talking about things about living in space or having to live underground, or what might do this. But really that's just speculation. There's no way to know what will shape our future revolutionary history. But in looking

back that we don't have to speculate. We can see these long term trends and understand how they transpired over the last six million years since we became by pedal. And you're right, it is the fact that we stood up. Right. If you look at chimpanzees, our closest living relative on this planet, they remained quadrupedal, and they never developed big round skulls and the ability to use their hands to make tools in the same way we do. They

also make and use tools, but it's very simple. A lot of people don't realize that one of the main reasons we are so intelligent, we have such big brains, is simply because we stood up and our heads had to rotate down in order to see where we were going in line with the horizon, and that caused a flexing of our basicranium where it sort of became a more acute angle, essentially between the anterior and the posterior cranial base, and

then that opened up a lot of space on the top of our skulls where a bigger brain could grow. And then from that point on it is just sort of this runaway brain train where intelligence and sexual selection and natural selection all help it grow larger and to become more better integrated and wired and just more intelligent in general. So yeah, I think that biopedalism is a very important part of understanding this connection between past, present, and future, because that

is the trait that defines our lineage. A hominin is an upright walking human ancestor, and the fact that they are always reported as being bipedal, I think that alone is a big connector it's something that should be considered in the context of this theory. Yeah, we're going to talk a lot more about this because I think this is one of the really important parts, although there

are a lot of them. But we're going to take a short break, so those of you listening on the radio will hear some commercials, the rest of you will hear a short music interlude, and we'll be right back with doctor Michael Masters talking about whether or not aliens could simply be us from the

future. Hello and welcome back to Open Mind GUFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we have with us a professor of biological anthropology, doctor Michael Masters, and we were talking about bipedalism and how important it was for the development of modern humans. And you know, one of the things you talked about is how when we stood up, essentially the effects on our heads made our heads our skulls bigger in the room for us our brains to

grow and become more intelligent. And you also mentioned in your lecture how being smart is just a dominant trait and like you just say, kind of went like a runaway train. That was a big deal. I mean, we being intelligent, you know, it's something that continues on and we become more and more intelligent as time goes on, because it's been a really important trait.

However, the bipedalism, you argue, is not something that likely would happen on another planet or another species, because it's not really kind of a just standing up itself is not necessarily the best thing for a body. Yeah, and one of the things I try to highlight to talk about it in the book and also mentioned it in that particular lecture at International LOFO Congress.

Is what are referred to as the perils of being bipedal. There's really a lot of problems that we suffer from being upright walking hominins on this particular planet with nine point eight meters per second squared force of gravity, this acceleration constantly pulling down on us. And really, if you look across mammals, we are really one of very few that are bipedal. A number of birds are, but as far as mammals, it's really not very common, simply because

it's problematic. And for us, there's this evolutionary tradeoff where we suffer from knee problems and back problems and neck problems and flat feet and shin splints and hernias and complicated births and all kinds of other things vericose veins, hemorrhoids,

and those things are bad. They're negative traits. But in the context of the benefits of the intelligence that we have experienced and this growth of knowledge and culture and technology, all of those things have clearly outweighed the trade offs. The cause of being bipedal on a planet of this size, And one argument I make in the context of astrobiology is that the vast majority of planets that

have been found as part of the Kepler mission are much larger. It would seem that Earth is relatively small in comparison to other planets in the universe. So if that's the case, we wouldn't expect by pedalism to arise on other planets, even Earth like exoplanets that are even a little bit larger than are, simply because of how rare it is here and how many problems we suffer from as a result of it. So, however, you know, it

seems bipedalism was key to humans becoming intelligent. Are there any other examples, you know, an animal world that where a different trait or feature has allowed an animal's brain to increase in size. Yeah. Absolutely, there's all kinds of environmental pressures. Look at dolphins there, they're not bipedal, they don't they don't even live on land, for God's sakes. But they're one of the smartest animals that there is on this planet. So no, I don't

I don't try to advocate that bipedalism is a prerequisite for intelligence. That's not not really the argument that I'm making. But okay, yeah, I know, just that it was very instrumental in shaping our own intelligence on this planet. But but that doesn't mean that all other organisms would have to have that. You could have any number of things take place, any sort of any number of evolutionary pathways on other planets that also imbued a species with intelligence with

a very different physical form than our own. But in the context of this particular question, the fact that so many, almost all, I think it's safe to say, of these reported extra tempstrials, they're reported being bipedal. I think that's important to consider in the context of this argument. But there's most certainly a lot of life out there in the universe, and a lot of intelligent life, but they aren't likely to look like us or these bipedal

descendants that are commonly reported in instances of close encounters. So it's more about just connecting the dots with this particular phenomenon rather than saying that this had to

have happened this specific way to get intelligence. Almost the opposite. I mean, it's and I think it's a strong argument you know you're making, which is it was a certain specific you know, factors that made us by pedal, and that the odds of another civilization or species that becomes intelligent going through the same process are so low that that's another indicator that you know, kind of equals p equals. See, hey, if they're bipedal and we're bipedal.

Yeah, it demonstrates another strong argument that it's in the future. Yeah, and yeah, it's it's really unlikely that this would happen somewhere else,

and not just because of the gravity thing that I just mentioned. I think that's a very important thing to consider, but even beyond that, the different chemistries, the different distance from the Sun, the atmosphere, the chemical compositions of the planet itself, and the fact that we all arose with DNA RNA early on and then DNA and all life forms today have those that same coating system, that same basic building block. With any other nucleotide or with any

other molecule, you could have a just entirely different structure of life. So yeah, there's a lot of things very specific to us and how we are now that happened throughout the last three and a half billion years of life on this planet, and especially throughout the last six million years of hominine evolution. It's just tremendously unlikely that anything similar to what we experienced would also happen on another planet at the same time, close enough to us that we'd find each

other. M hm. So another I guess influence on our features that you talk about is from domestication. And now that may be a trait that could be more universal because it doesn't matter whether you're bipedal or not. In fact, I've seen studies on you know, foxes in Russia on this. You're probably aware of these studies, but maybe could talk about that. What traits

domestication influences. Yeah, there's actually quite a few. In You're right, that would be one of those traits, that is, it would be expected to lead to some similarities simply because it does happen the same way or in a similar way across various species, And you write foxes were one of the

earliest examples. I talk about this in the book quite a lot. In sight some of the research that you mentioned, where you take a wild animal and you start to domesticate, you start to select for pro social traits and traits that are kind of associated with getting along well with each other and with other species in this case us and yeah, with foxes specifically, their ears would start to get floppy, their tails would would change, it would start

to bark, which isn't a characteristic that you see in the wild, and really across various species, we see these same types of changes morphological and behavioral traits taking place, and the same things happen with humans with self domestication.

A lot of people don't realize that we have domesticated ourselves, and especially since the Neolithic Revolution, with the rise of agriculture and civilizations, we've had selection for pro social behaviors where we get along with each other, we can live in larger groups, and there's a number of things that happen that could connect

us now with us in the future. And depigmentation is one of these, just a retardation and the proliferation and migration from the neurocrest cells of the milano blasts, and those are the embryonic precursors to the melanocytes that form melanin in

the scan and give us our dark skin tone. And that's one of these other traits associated with self domestication and the domestication of other animals, is that we see this depigmentation take place, and that could help explain the grayish hue in the skin of these grays specifically, and other ones that are described as being kind of pale skinned and frail. Those could be an aspect of this domestication process with regard to us specifically, but we do see that in other

species as well. So, yeah, when we started to self domesticate, and this is a pretty recent trend really if you think about it, in a six million year history of hominins, it's only in the last ten to twelve thousand years that these things have even been taking place. But there has also been an acceleration in the rate of change in many of our morphological and

behavioral features. So the rise of civilizations and agriculture beginning ten to twelve thousand years ago is likely one of the things that helped accelerate this process forward. And some of those traits being like larger eyes. Yeah right, yeah,

and that's actually I'm glad you brought that up. That's what I did my PhD thesis on was the not the evolution of eyes because they don't preserve in the fossil record, but the evolution of the eye orbits and how those change in relation to an expanding neurocranium above and retracting face nasomaxillary complex and all of

the lower facial features below. What happens to the eye orbits throughout this time, And even though we don't have the ability to study the eyes themselves, because like all soft tissue, they just brought away when an individual dies, because they are so tightly linked to the fore brain in integration capacity a morphological integration. As the brain and the specialtually the frontal lobe of the brain expands,

we would expect our eyes to grow larger too. They're thought to be linked because of what's known as pleotropic gene control mechanisms, where the same gene controls for the development of different traits as we see them, and the eye

grows directly out of the brain during early fetal ontogeny. So we would expect that those two things would grow larger in association with one another, one being selected for because of intelligence, the fact that that part of our brain gives us our higher level thinking, and the eye just kind of goes along for the ride. And in fact, a lot of my research looks at this evolutionary trend in the context of nearsightedness, juvenile onset, myopia, and a

larger eye is actually bad. It's the main correlate for nearsightedness that you have an eye that's too large and it changes the focal length and all kinds of other things or esoteric things related to ophthalmology. But the larger I is actually an evolutionary trade off, I would argue, a negative thing resulting from our

brains growing larger, and especially the development of the forebrain. So yeah, I think I think we can really kind of dig deeper, even not just surface levels stuff like bipedalism, but really look at the I mean, you shaw, the details of our specific evolutionary history, things that have happened over the long term and more recently in the context of self domestication and others, and really kind of see these patterns emerge that may connect our past to our

future in a long term evolutionary sense. Mm hm. So there are a lot of biological, you know, reasons that to that support your argument. But the physics you've also found, you know, the physics of time travel. Like you said, this isn't your area, but you've certainly looked into it quite a bit. And the physics of time travel is I guess one of the questions would be because it comes to the tech. Okay, the tech would be now we've got the biology, dan, will people develop or

other you know, species and other planets grow to be intelligent? Who knows? Likely? But the tech can they get there from here? Is that technology even possible? And so But on your side that the tech question is time travel? Is that even possible? Could we even do that? Yeah,

It's obviously a very important part of the argument. And in the same way that we can see a sort of broad connection in our morphological form and the evolutionary changes that have taken place to get to where we are now and presumably into the future to get to where we will be, then you can

kind of see the same thing happen in the context of technology. I live in a really unique place that has a rich mining history in Butte, Montana, and I was on the board of the World Mining Museum until recently, and just seeing all of these technologies that they used in a very recent past, only seventy five hundred years ago, and just how primitive they were and

how far we've come in that period of time. In one hundred years from now, people are going to look at what we're using for what are seemingly very cutting edge technological innovations, and the things that we use and do, they're going to seem so archic in the context of where we are in one

hundred years, one thousand years, tens of thousands of years. So if we look at the rapid rate of change in our culture and technology, and especially in the context of what is the dominant understanding among physicists today that there's nothing in the laws of physics that prohibit backward time travel, at that point, it just becomes a question of when we will do it, when we'll figure out how to do it, but also have developed the materials that will

allow it, because there's no doubt it's going to take a tremendous amount of energy, likely rotational force, and the materials that we have today just aren't capable of withithstanding those types of accelerations and rotational forces. So yeah, I think it would sell us short as a species to say that we'll never be able to do that if there's nothing that forbids it in the laws of physics, it's just it's shooting us in the foot to say that we'll never figure

out how to do it. We've come so far and there's no doubt in my mind that that's something that we'll eventually be able to figure out as well. And it's kind of interesting that the conversation about, you know, highly advanced theoretical method to travel great distances are very tied to time and time manipulation and space time, and it's almost as though the technologies develop at the same

time. Absolutely, yeah, And a lot of the more precocious folks that listen to my lecture realize that if we also need to travel at a high rate of speed to go deep into the past, that would also give us

the ability to check out other star systems potentially. And one of the biggest problems with traveling fast distances is that you instantly detach yourself from everyone that's alive at that time, simply because of the effects of time dilation when you travel at a high rate of speed relative to the speed of light as you're going out, Because if you say you're traveling at the speed of light, you see time stop on Earth simply because those are all of the moments that took

place as you're traveling with those beams of light that left Earth. But when you come back now instantly you're traveling through all of those periods of time at a tremendous rate of speed, going backward against the light that had just been moving with you. And by the time you get back, everyone that was alive when you left has been long dead. You've traveled thousands, tens of thousands of years into the future, and nobody's going to be willing to do

that on any planet anywhere. But with the ability to manipulate time as well, it gets around that problem. Now as you're traveling back to your planet, times moving forward when you get there, or as you're moving, you can reverse time to come back to the same time as when you left. And that's a really important thing I think for people to understand is we would still have the ability to be an interstellar if we also the ability to time

travel. And one other important thing to keep in mind too is that it would also account for these tremendous g forces as we observe them. There's no way you could put a living creature inside these craft and then have them do what we perceive them doing. The rapid accelerations, especially when they take off

up into the sky, it would crush any organism inside. But again, with the ability to manipulate space time in and around that craft, what we see is this tremendously rapid acceleration to them may simply be a slow, gradual ascent, simply because they're able to manipulate space time in that localized reference frame. You've also, you know, pointed out that the technology for time travel were some of these theoretical ideas developed, the devices might look like a disk.

Yeah. Yeah, that's in the same way that we could potentially tie together the morphological and cultural aspects of humans. If we look at the progression of our understanding of how we might create close timelike curves, a very ubiquitous feature is that you have the rotation of a highly energetic and or a massive Originally it was a cylinder, and then a ring model, and then a

disk. Yeah, the Tipler cylinders in the nineteen seventies physicists Frank Tipler describing an actual physical way in reality to create a time machine, something that can create close timelight curves and return to the past. So, yeah, we have this common idiom in biology that form follows function, and if we look at the form of these craft in the context of all of the solutions. Steinstein's field equations are the vast majority of them since publishing his papers on general

relativity in nineteen fifteen. If we look at the form of these craft in the context of that research, it sort of indicates that they may have the function of achieving backward time travel. So I think it's another important connection to

consider in the context of this model. And then, finally, because we're kind of running out of time here, one aspect that you talk about that I think is interesting also is if you take into account the people who believe that they've had experiences with extraterrestrial beings, what they claim to be told is interesting in that it kind of also fits your argument with things like, you know, having an interest in how we treat our planet in ourselves, and

also their interest in our DNA. Yeah, yeah, they're interested in our DNA and also our nuclear technologies. That's certainly one that should also be considered. I mean, why would aliens from a different planet care what we do here on this planet, and if they're stakeholders in the future, if they have a vested interest in us not destroying the Earth or blowing up a large segment of humanity. It would definitely make sense in that context of them being

us. But yeah, a lot of contact ease report being told take care of your planet, or yeah, a lot of them that are continually abducted and their families over long periods of time, which is a very common aspect

of this phenomenon. That the same person will be picked up that they often describe having some sort of tracking device implanted in them, which would facilitate that at a later date save some time as far as the researchers and what they're trying to do to locate someone, But why they would pick up that same individual multiple times or other family members would kind of make sense in the context of DNA and sampling gam meats or collecting DNA from different individuals, but with

DNA that serves some purpose to them, that has some function in those more distant societies in the future. When we're discussing DNA, you also address the idea of hybrids. You know, this idea that whatever's coming here is kind of creating hybrids with them and us, but you point out that that is another indication that you know and for that to be possible, they would have to be very closely related to us. Yeah, they would have to be

us based on the biological definition of what a specie is. It takes two organisms that are able to reproduce, but importantly reproduce viable offspring. And the most common example is the donkey and the horse. They can make a mule, but that mule isn't fertile. So therefore, under this definition of species, the donkey and the horse are different. They are different species. So yeah, if people believe the hybridization is taking place, then they would have

to also acknowledge that these are indeed us. They are in the hominin lineage and close enough to us in time that they would be able to do that our closest living relative to chimpanzee. Again, we can't produce viable offspring with them, even though we share a very recent common ancestry in the sense of geologic times. So yeah, I think the question of hybrids really needs to be considered in the context of this extra tempestrial model because it's really the only

way that could take place. You couldn't have an organism on a different planet evolve again to be so much like us, but to also reproduce with us. That's just it's nearly impossible that that would ever happen, given the fact that we can't reproduce with anything else on this planet at this time, even though we share this same planet and the same evolutionary history in the sense of

the long term evolution of life. Hmm. Well, this is also incredibly fascinating, and I feel like we barely were able even to scratch the surface here. So i'd highly highly recommend that people watch your lecture because even though it's like an hour, you had an hour and fifteen minutes, but you stopped at an hour because you're but you took some great questions from the audience. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was kind of funny that I wrote

a book about time and then couldn't keep time during my lecture. Now, but no, it worked out well because we did have some question answer time.

So yeah, it's good. And I mean, because really I think that that this is a very important lecture and I'm going to be passing this around quite a bit because it makes a very strong argument for something that you know, should be talked about more often, is that you know this theory that it's us from the future, which is you know, I think you're arguing, and I think you have a strong argument that it's a more likely

possibility than people from elsewhere. Yeah, but again, you know, I'd like to reiterate that they aren't mutually exclusive, that this extra tempastoral model doesn't mean that there can't still be extra terrestrials. I just think at least the vast majority of reported encounters would seem to be us. But but again, it doesn't. It doesn't preclude any sort of interdimensionality. I mean this, this model is interdimensional. That's exactly what it is. But other theories should

also be considered. Again, I'd try to be as inclusive as possible and not discount any any valid argument. I think we should all all be that way. M hmm, Well it's great staff. Where where's the best place for people to get your book? Well, Amazon's always a good safe bet. There. There's links through my website, which is just a shortened version of the title I'd fly obj I D F L y O b J dot com. There's Barnes and Noble Cobo. There's an audio book available through Audible,

and there's links to all of those on the website. But it's it's available pretty much anywhere you can buy books on the internet and in some bookstores and other shops and things. So yeah, it's it's widely available. I guess you could say, all right, well, great, thank you so much for your work. I mean, it's just amazing how much work you've put into this and how much you've touched upon here in the book and in your lecture. And thank you so much for coming on the show. Yeah,

thank you all. Andrew, it's been great talking to you. Thank you so much to Michael Masters for being on the show. Be sure to check out his book, Identified Flying Objects, a multi disciplinary academic approach to the UFO phenomenon, and it certainly is. I think he's done an incredible

job. Be sure to check out his video. It'll be up on the UFO Congress website in the Videos on Demand, so you'll be able to see that on the front page of UFO Congress the link to the Videos on Demand, or you can also see that on the social media and my social media you'll see links to that so you can watch his excellent lecture. If you're still watching DVDs, you can actually order those from the UFO Congress store as

well, and his lecture was incredible. I haven't gotten through the whole book, but the book, you know, outlines this this theory in detail, and really we were only able to scratch the surface in this interview. The work he's done is outstanding. It's so detailed, and there are so many

things that he explored that really fit the phenomenon. I'm someone who I feel, you know, knows this phenomena fairly well, been looking into it and writing about it for so long, and it's incredible to me, you know, how much fits with this theory, which I think is such a viable possibility and is something everybody should be considering. So check out his book.

The URL that we talked about is kind of weird. It's I d f l yob J, so essentially id fly object, so I d f L y oh b J. You can probably just google the name of his book, Identify Flying Objects, a Multidisciplinary academic approach to the UFO phenomena, and find his links to his books as well. So really great stuff. It's been so nice actually to get to know him. I saw him at Alien Con and then again at the UFO Congress. He's very intelligent, he's got

a great sense of humor. He actually plays music too. We didn't even get how he's in a rock band, which is pretty cool too. So very cool dude. Happy to meet him, Happy to have him on the show. Finally, and if you couldn't tell, I'm very enthusiastic about his work, so check it out. Otherwise, thank you to Martin Willis for joining us at the beginning of the show. That guy is such a character and always a lot of fun. Do check out his debate with Seth Shosteck

about the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. He did a great job, and he's been gearing up. I think this is his second little debate that he's had with him, and he's done a lot better. So he's learned. He's learned. And the third one, oh my gosh, Martin's going to take him down so hard. But of course I am a big fan of Sessho Stacks. Of course I don't agree with all of its views when it comes to UFOs, but otherwise I do. And if you do get a chance

to see him, go do it. He does a lot of talks all over the place around the world, and his talks are a lot of fun. He's very witty, and he makes an incredible argument. You can find some online too that you know, there's got to be aliens out there somewhere and intelligent civilization, so it's funny he makes that argument, but has you know, no interest in the possibility that they may be visiting us already,

which is a possibility, who knows. Check it out, dude. There's some interesting stuff out there, as we all know, so that's a lot of fun. Otherwise, let's see what else is going on. More and more videos are coming up from the UFO Congress as we have kind of gotten real stack pablished and gotten our feet under us after that event, which is always such a large undertaking every year, so every really pretty much every day.

There are more videos from the conference getting out there, and they can all be purchased on DVD at the Ufocongress dot com website, so do check all of those out. Otherwise, a lot of exciting stuff going on. Of course, Martin and I talked about the army and to the stars working together, holy moly, and I think that you know, this isn't the end of some extraordinary revelations regarding all of this and the government that will be

going on. So we live in extraordinary times when it comes to UFOs, and I like to pride myself on being one of those people at the cutting edge of bringing you all this information. So I think that we've got a lot of fun stuff in the future ahead for us. So I guess, Hank tight, I'm going to have some more shows in the future. I got a lot of great people to interview, so we're going to have some fun on some upcoming podcasts. But as usual, I want to thank Caleb

Hanks for the excellent Open and Closed music. You can find a link to his website. He's got a Patreon site and a SoundCloud site where he puts up a lot of really really cool music. But on the openminds dot tv site for the podcast, we have a link to his stuff. Do go check it out. Thank you to Systematics for the bumper music. And of course thank you, yeah, that's right, you the listener, the one who's listening right now. Thank you so much for listening. You know you

all inspire me to keep this all going. It's so fun to share all of this great information and these incredible things happening right now. And of course it would be all for not if I didn't have any listeners, and I've got the best listener. I met you, and I think I've told you all before. I meet you guys, and you're so smart, you're so good looking. You've got great smiles. You know that's something unique about my listeners too. I think you'll have some wonderful smiles, so I love seeing

them when I get a chance. And I'll let you know the next event i'll be at so I can meet more of you. It's always a treat. But thank you all so much for listening. Until next time, audio smooth tautchos. You were motionless