Dr. Kevin Knuth: UFOs, Science, and Relativistic Interstellar Travel

Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. This is your host Alejandro Rojas, and I have a great show today. However, to start the show off and to talk some news I do have with me, mister Martin willis a podcast UFO. No. Hello, how's it going? Good? Good? Good good good? So in the air is in the air. I know it's great. The weather is getting better and everything's looking up for at least weatherwise. But and I've got a show. So I've been gone

for a few weeks. I apologize to the audience for that, but there was vacation time. And you know what I want I really wanted to focus on, and that's where I got my guests is a Scientific Coalition for Ufology, that conference that went on the AAPC. Some of you know, I've been involved with the SCU and so I really wanted to focus on that and what was going on there, to digest it and to capitalize as much as possible on this event. And this event became, you know, to me,

more important than I even thought. But we'll talk about that first, though, I want to talk to you about my guest. My guest is doctor Kevin Kanuth. He is from the Department of Physics, a professor there, an associate professor at the University of Albany also known as SUNNI the State University of New York, so kind of a big deal. And he has also worked at NASA as a NASA Research scientist. He's a professor of physics. He teaches space all kinds of really cool stuff and he had a great

talk. So we're going to talk to him about science and the UFO topic, and then we're also going to talk to him about this kind of idea that he put forward in the conference. It has to do with kind of space time when it deals with space travel, and this idea of how time may be very different for whatever may be visiting us. So from that perspective, it could answer some of the questions as to why what we see when it comes to the phenomena is so enigmatic. So we'll talk about that with

our discussions with Kevin. But he was so great, he was a great presenter. The SEU is going to have his talk up eventually here as a prepare it. But it was really good. Wow, I can't wait to listen this. I love this kind of stuff. I can't wait to listen You know there was another. There have been, in my opinion, very few very serious science oriented conferences, and you and I met at one in

North Carolina. That's where we first met. And I think Leslie Kane was kind of the main person to organize as speakers, and of course she's very credible. She's behind the December seventeenth, twenty seventeen article that you know, the Pentagon thing came outeenth sixteenth, right, and so she was the perfect person to put this together for Ken Center, who was part of MUFON over there, and that was a really great event, but this felt like that,

if not better. It was a very science oriented, small group, very intimate, but it was really incredible to have such a high level of credibility of experience. You know, some of these speakers had multiple PhDs, and to be talking seriously about this topic, ideas around this topic and how to move forward, and then to have Louise Eleazondo there to also share this information with these guys to add to that conversation, and how put off was

there the whole time. It was. Yeah, it was a really incredible event, very important, and you know, there'll be more information coming out about the talks as time goes on. Wow, I really wish I could have gone there. I yeah, so I got I was contacted by a few people that were going and I really wanted to go, but I had just got back from you know, six weeks away. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. So but we do have some of our listeners, you know, we're there, so others have shared and you know,

Kevin and I go over this. There's been a little bit of criticism because there has been some information that has gotten out and the SEU has been like, hey, guys, you didn't have permission to get that information out, so please don't share that, which is a completely fair thing to ask. So there have been people frustrated with that, saying, hey, you know, they're trying to edit this information or at least be controlling with the information.

And you know what, people, that's how professional organizations work. Really. Pretty much every event I go to I'm invited at for press some of these cool things that I get to go to, you know, NASA facilities and stuff. There's always information that is embargoed. Information I can't share for maybe a few days, maybe a few weeks, maybe a few months. And then there's often information that they want off the record, and so you

can't share that at all. And of course, you know with me speaking with all of these different individuals, the more I guess professional, the more credibility or kind of the more like Alexander talked about with risk aversion, the more professional the person, the more sensitive an area they're in, the less they're gonna they're gonna be more careful about the way they speak with this because

they don't want to hurt credibility amongst their peers. And so Kevin and I talk about this and working and writing with scientists, and we often have these discussions when I have these meetings with scientists and stuff off the record discussions. There's there's a difficulty they have with working with the media because their information is

is you know, they can't get it misconstrued. When you're a journalist, if you get something they say wrong, that can have a very big effect on them because you know it may get out there that you know, this scientist is misrepresenting their work or doesn't understand the science correctly, and then they lose credibility. So it can have it can be very impactful. So when

you're working with these sorts of people. How you release and what you release is extremely important, and at least it's my position at the SCU that we'd be very strict about it because we want to make this safe environment for scientists. So that's why that information is meetered. And to be completely honest, and I don't mean to be disrespectful for anybody listening who shared information they shouldn't

have. It is actually very unprofessional not to get permission to share information before you share it. You know, if you're truly trying to help this cause, you'll definitely want to do that because some of these people, like our guests today, they may, you know, we may share something that is very detrimental to their career and then they'll never want to participate in this topic again because they don't feel there's a safe professional space for them to do this

work in. So that's why it's so important that that information be carefully managed. We give a quick example of what type of information was shared that shouldn't have been well, not details of it, just something they said or I'll

say this. I'll say, well, here's for instance, Alexander didn't really want the Q and A shared because he shared most of this is not necessarily around being inaccurate, but he was kind of I think teetering on the edge of what he can share as far as the History Channel show that's coming up,

and we'll talk about that in a minute. But also he commented on personal you know, things about his family and stuff that he really didn't want to share because as we all know, as you and I know, everything we say on these shows is scrutinized and anything that we say can be used in social media to attack us or make fun of us or what have you. And it's unfortunate. It's not justified, nor is it professional or even you know, copasetic in any way. But there's a lot of mean people

out there on the internet. So and there has been blowback in personal kind of effects that he has experienced from people just being very cruel, you know, and then the family seeing this and being like, oh my gosh, what are these people saying about my dad or something? You know, you probably get that, you know, I know, I feel, you know, what are people I rarely see people saying something bad about you in particular,

but certainly other colleagues, you know, you hate it. That's when I get more man when people are being mean or unjustified and bashing you know, some of our friends and or colleagues or other people in this field. So that's the sort of thing. But otherwise, you know what can even hurt more. And we'll get into this with Kevin actually and get into this topic and what he's written in just a minute when we get into the news. But I'll kind of talk about this some more, and Kevin and I

will talk about it some more too later in the show. Yes, well, SCU wise though, because you weren't there are there any questions I can answer? Were there any like burning questions you were, like, I wonder if this happened or that happened. Yes, I know they discussed or Robert Powell discussed the Nimmet's case. But were there other cases that were discussed in depth like that. No, that's a great question. Well I shouldn't say

that. Yes, there were two cases that in particular that were covered because they've been thoroughly researched by the SCU and that was the Aguedilla case, the Puerto Rico homeland security video case, and then also the Nimets case because, as you know, because you're one of the one of the few people. Roberts even told me he would rather wait for the report to come out to

talk about it. Uh, and we will have a video up eventually to talk about, you know, the findings that Robert Powell and Peter Reality came up or Relatti I keep messing up his last name, but I came up with but yeah, so it's just mostly those two cases. Otherwise it was more general. So like for instance, with Kevin he kind of like his analysis of time, space and spaceflight and how that would affect perspectives. Or you know another Taylor, Travis Taylor, really you know, charismatic guy.

He came up and talked about he's got two PhD's, talked about what if aliens attacked what would we do? And this is something he's written a big book on. So it is speculation, but it's you know, he's really done a thorough analysis like we would do with a you know, a foreign adversary and what might happen. So really interesting stuff there too. What that would be interested to know what his thoughts are if alien attacked us? What will we do? Great talk, So we'll have that up at the SEU

site. I would join them, Hi for one welcome our new alien overlords. Yeah, yeah, you would, I would. Yeah. All right. So before we get into that, let's talk news. So what would you like to start off with, Buddy, Well, you know, it's not news so much, it's just an interesting story. It's in Forbes and Aidan Gillen from the new you know, Project Blue Book not so new several times. First season's over, and you know what, he's a great actor.

I think he did well personally with Heinek. You made him very likable. I do have my criticisms of the show, and my final review is going to be posted any second now, by the way, so i'll share that accuracy was out the window. You know, it's got worse his time went on, but it was still an entertaining show. And I think Aiden gill did great. What did you think? I think, you know, he's absolutely he just becomes such a focus and such a you know, you

want to like him exactly. Yeah, And you know, I think he's great. I think he did. I think he did the part really well, and I think he really took care to make sure he did. You know, when I spoke with Dave Old Larry, he'd say that he get a call from what would your dad do if this happened? You know, that type of thing. So he really did have you know, he really had care to do the portraying as accurate as possible in a given situation.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Anyway, the story is called that he talked to UFOs in his new show Project Blue Book and Pardon Me, and so it talks about the ten episode drama series based on renowned as physicists astrophysic doctor Joseph I didn't know that was his first name, Jay Allen Heinick, who studied UFOs, and it had quickly become one of the top shows of the year, which I think that's pretty nice. I think it was

in three something million viewership or something like that. It probably even says it somewhere in this story. So it basically talks about the relation of the UFOs reported through the United States Air Force from nineteen fifty two to nineteen sixty nine,

over twelve thousand of them were reported. But it talks again, it starts getting into the Irish actor and by the way, he really lost his accent very well, Aidan Gillen, And they say in this article that they think he brilliantly plays doctor Heinick, and of course you'd remember him from little Finger from Game of Thrones if you ever watched that. So in a phone interview, he discussed how it differs portraying a real person as a post as

a fictional character. He says, it's both daunting and exciting, though more so exciting, and it is the first time he's delving into a real person on screen. But he explains the you know, the differences and all that. So they go on to ask him about UFOs and is he a believer or not, and he says, I'm quoting here. I've seen a couple

of things, he says. He describes a time when he was with friends and they saw something in the sky they couldn't explain, and he said, this wasn't long after seeing the nineteen seventy seven classic Close Encounters of the Third kind. We were all kids and we saw something inexplicable. It was also at a time that we were really looking for something, and I totally understand

that. Also, he adds that his mother saw something in the nineteen fifties in rural I learn, and that was a time when UFOs were the topic of conversation on TV and on the radio, and people were really looking for them and wanted to see them. And he believes that it's quite improbable that we that were alone in the universe, which is wait a minute, did I read that wrong. Yeah, I believe that it's quite improbable, I'm sorry, improbable that we're alone in the university. Yeah, he said it

kind of strangely, but you got it. Yeah, And it's highly likely that there are other civilizations. I think most people in our society today are feeling that way as time goes on more and more. I would really love

to talk to him like I did with Michael Malarkey. Michael Malarkey, for instance, didn't think much about the topic really, and then when he got involved with the show and he read like roupelt Books, the blue Book chief who wrote a book on you know, Project blue Book, he was like, Oh my gosh, you know, there's just so much evidence that there's a real phenomena here that his involvement with the show is what convinced him. And I wonder if that's the same way with Aidan Gillen. It seems as

though, but I wonder if it is. Well, he had a little bit of a jump on the topic that to begin with, Yeah, with his sightings. True. Yeah, So that's a great article in Forbes, right, So a couple other articles, actually, I have a couple of articles that kind of answer your question too to how does you know how can

information get misconstrued? So we have this article from Kevin Kanouth my who we're going to hear from in just a second at least about him, that came out fairly recently, and the title is ex NASA scientist says that UFOs are real and the government covers up alien life. That's the Tech Times headline,

which is completely inaccurate. They're talking about Kevin Kanuth And what happened is, for you know, UFO day in June second, I think or July second is the day there was someone who asked, you know, they were asked that the university would someone like to write an article about UFOs, and he said, sure, I'll do it. So he wrote an article for the Conversation and the title is are we alone? The question is worthy of Syria

serious scientific study. So he's making an argument here that we should take the potential, you know, the UFO phenomena seriously and look at it and it's a great article. This article actually originally came out in like June of twenty eighteen, and then I think because he was speaking at SEU, there's been you know, the tabloids even picked up this story and wrote about him recently. So but they did kind of, you know, get things right.

And that's the hard part. He is not saying there's a major cover up. In fact, if you read his original story, he says by not

sharing information, it makes it look like there's a cover up. And he also says by scientists who are skeptical coming up with ridiculous debunking theories for UFO incidents, he says that also hurts and gives the impression that there's a major conspiracy because you and I complain about that often that you know, the skeptics will say, oh, I can answer A, A and B out of a whole list of seven or eight, you know, pertinent facts, and

so they can blow it off because they feel they can answer one or two aspects. Right, it was venus, because it's in the sky right right. It's one of the frustrations, you know, even with the Aguadilla report, you know, this is what there was a light coming out from the ocean over towards this airport in Puerto Rico. The Homeland Security guys are actually border patrol essentially that oh is this a drug runner? It looked low.

They aim their camera on it and they get this object. The light turns off, but they can see the object in their flair, you know, at night, they're infrared essentially, so uh, you know, but a lot of people throw that out the window and say, oh, and this infrared, I can tell this, I can tell that, But they throw out the witness testimony and the reason why they're looking in the first place. It's an example of how, you know, if you don't take all the

information, then you're not really examining the entire facts of the case. You know, did they did they talk about that from the beginning, because I had they did heard that part of it a month ago about the light. Well here's well, here's the other issue, and this is the other This is another example why you need to be careful with the way you get out information. In fact, Elizondo said something great, uh, and I love it. He said, you know, we're not here to satisfy idle curiosity.

Set I understand you guys want people out there want information as quickly as possible, and we want to get it to people as quickly as possible, but not at the detriment of the case or what we're trying to accomplish here. We're not going to, you know, to jeopardize the case to satisfy idle curiosity. And I totally agree with that, because this is an example with Agua da. If you don't have all of the pieces of information in

total, then the case isn't as substantial. And that was something that I, you know, I think that just gets lost in conversation. People don't, you know, take a step back. Here's another example. I tweet it and and it was being a little bit on rate that Alessander said a tip was one hundred UFOs. Because some people are doubting out that out there because they say, well, we don't have a government document that says that. Well, so what I mean, here's why nobody cares. Here's why

only these really kind of honore people in the UFO community. Someone will get frustrated with me saying this, but this is the truth. Here's why they're the only ones who care. Because we have the guy who created got the funding for the program, saying, yep, and we created this program. I sought this funding to investigate the paranormal, including UFOs. We have lou Elizondo who ran the program. It's verified he's ran the program, saying this

was one hundred percent UFOs. We have help put of and other BASS employees who were contractors with the project, saying, yes, we were looking in UFOs. What more do you need? These are the people working in the project. They've already explained how when they described the project or when they you know, the project goals on paper had to be enigmatic because they didn't want people to bash them for being some kind of UFO group, so they had

to kind of hide the wording or play with their wording. So it wasn't obvious. It's obvious that we wouldn't you know that we're seeing what we're seeing in these documents, given we need more documents, and it's always good to be skeptical, but you know, for the for the common sense person out there and for the media. Okay, we have it confirmed from everybody involved with this program, high level credible people that it was UFOs. Fine,

it's UFOs. Now, what are the critics saying that they're essentially saying that

the documents don't say UFOs. They use terms like advanced aerial threat, you know, identification of foreign threats all of this, which is you know, veiled terminology for what is a foreign threat and unknown object is also a foreign threat, so which is what Alizondo said, And you know, we investigated those in particularly looking for those which exhibited technology or performance that we can't achieve ourselves, right But anyway, yeah, so that's that's sort of the problem

that gets in there. But it's a great art. Another example of this is a is a Montana Tech professor who recently talked about how hypothesized that UFOs could be from the future. What is the headline? Mt Tech professor claims UFOs are time machines from the future. What is his quote? His quote is that it's potential, that it's a possibility. He's not saying they are. In fact, he even says it may be, so he's it's just this is an example where you know, their words, even a slight change

can have a problem. But this is a really interesting article about this professor who is saying, you know, this could be a possibility and What's great about the article more so is he saying, you know, we as professors and scientists and academics need to take a look at this field. And you know there could be some answers like this. How interesting would this be if

you know we're witnessing people from the future. So another great article. And I'm gonna go through these other ones really quickly because we've ran out of time. But there's one in an article in a website called The Outline belief in aliens could be America's next religion, something I've been talking about too and I love. And this is based on Diana Pasuka, her new book that came out kind of talking about some of this stuff. Really interesting article a war

history online article about Foo fighters. So this is really cool researched article on that. And this is a Forbes article. So at the same time as our event in Alabama for the SEU, there was another somewhat similar event happening in France and Paris, and this is something that happens yearly. It was actually Monday the eighteenth where a bunch of scientists got together to talk about aliens and UFOs in particular, scientists meet to investigate the great silence. In other

words, you know Fermi's paradox, why are we not seeing aliens? And a lot of these scientists are seriously hypothesizing things like the zoo hypothesis that they're just coming here to look at us, or a galactic quarantine that we are dirty apes and we, you know, can't be trusted to go out there in space. So, you know, just another scientific conference where they're looking at these things that happen in Paris. So this is a great Forbes article.

And then finally, you all may have seen the last episode of Project Bluebook and it was about the Washington d C siding. So there's some great articles that even quote myself that the History Channel had put out there on the nineteen fifty two encounters over Washington, and those are good. These History Channel articles are well researched, They are fact based, even if the show isn't. So the History articles are great and I highly recommend people read those articles.

I think they do a pretty good job of covering all the UFO cases, the real ones that were in the television shows. And you know, there are allusions to other UFO cases in the Project blue Book show. And if you want more about those, You're going to have to read my reviews because I don't think everybody catches those other UFO stuff. And I know David O'Leary, the writer, is a UFO buff, so he is definitely aware

of what he's doing when he makes these other references. So there's probably many I miss, but at least the once I catch I write about and provide information on in my reviews. And I'll have my last review coming out real soon here. Great, Wow, we really went over time. Interesting news, Tom, It's great yeah packed full mm hm, well, thank you so much for joining us. You're very welcome, my pleasure. Let's go ahead and talk with Professor Kevin Knout. I am very happy to welcome for

the first time to the show, Kevin Kanouth. And am I saying that correctly? Yes, that's correct. It's the Scandinavian pronunciation, so that's right, Thank you. Okay, great, So there are other types of pronunciations as well, huh English? Yeah, yeah, okay, Well, it's great to have you on. It was very great to see you at the SEU Scientific Coalition for Ufology conference. All of the names and everything are a mouthful. The anomalous Aerospace Phenomena conference, and I guess we could start off

there. So you are a scientist, a professor, and one of the things that we got a lot of feedback for they had feedback for putting together the conference was the naming and really a lot of advice to shy away from and stay away from the term UFO, And I was wondering, you know, is that something you would recommend as well. So they use this term, you know, anomalous aerospace phenomena, which is great, it's an accurate term. But do you see that issue I mean with your colleagues. Yeah,

potentially. The terminology is always difficult because some terms carry a lot of extra baggage, or sometimes in science they'll have a common meaning which isn't quite the same as the scientific meaning, and that can lead to confusion in some cases. So so I don't know. I think that you know, UFO is a pretty charged term at this point, and it might help to come up with more precise monology, and then it might not. Now in your

experience now, especially online, this is kind of interesting. I wonder if you saw this. People seem to be very concerned about you and your reputation getting hurt or you having to kind of hide from your interest or your participation in this conference, worried that you know, you may suffer negative repercussions in your career. Did you have those fears or concerns. I've I have had

those concerns, and I would continue to have those concerns. My I have a pretty solid reputation at this point in international reputation, so I would hope that that would carry some weight. And my interests in this have always been clear. So I think that this is something that should be studied. I don't have any statements about, you know, as to what the solutions are yet, so and I think that scientists should study things. I think it's

that simple. Mm. Well, and you have or at least there are a lot of important people, I will say, or other scientists kind of coming out, and it seems like we have this environment where scientists feel a little more comfortable to go to the potential alien explanation, for example, what you refer to the dice in sphere. And there's been a lot of talk about you know, Tabby's star, the Omamua thing that came through you know,

the Harvard scientists suggesting it could be alien spacecraft. It seems like there is a little bit more of an acceptance of, at least entertaining the idea that there could be other civilizations out there trying to come take a look at us. Yeah, I think that's correct, and I think there's a good

reason for it. If you think about the near nineteen forty seven, which is when Kenneth Arnold, you know, saw saucers near Mount Rainier, the what was nineteen forty seven, like, well, this was ten years before Sputnik, and in fact, even two weeks before Sputnik you had the you know, the Royal Astronomer in Britain declared that space travel was bunk. And that was two weeks before Sputnick. So ten years before Sputnik we hadn't really

we still weren't really considering space travel as a serious possibility. Not everyone was sure it was physically possible. We didn't have a great deal of knowledge about what the planets in our Solar system were like, and we didn't know at all whether there were any other planets around any other stars. We assumed there probably were, but we didn't have any information about that at all. So nineteen forty seven, the idea that there could be advanced civilizations from other star

systems visiting Earth was just almost off the table. We just didn't have that kind of knowledge and that our worldview wasn't prepared to accept something like that.

Now you fast forward, what is it, seventy years or so to this point in time, and now we're looking at we ourselves have visited other planets, you know, We've put men on the Moon, We've launched probes to the major bodies in our Solar System, and we've got you know, two space probes, the two Voyager the craft and the Pioneer craft actually are both leaving the Solar System at this point. And moreover, we have plans ourselves

to visit the nearest star. We're aiming to get to Alpha century by twenty sixty nine. This is one of the goals that NASA has, so so where we are working toward interstellar travel ourselves and more even you know, and to add to that, we also now have knowledge about planets around other stars

and we're learning about them. So I think the situation's changed and we now have a better picture of what the universe is like and realize that, you know, we are a civilization that really is attempting to do this, and we have had some success at this point, so it's not unreasonable to accept the possibility that there may be other civilizations out there that may have tried to

do this as well, with varying degrees of success. And another aspect to it that I think actually is important and it may seem silly, but you know, being a journalist who's gotten covered a lot of science and NASA, this is a this is kind of a big deal. Is how do we outreach to the public. And it's it's fun, like, for instance, when you're presenting about this and making your postulations or you know, it's fun to think about this stuff and it does serve a scientific purpose also it's speculation

based on science. Yeah, it is fun and I think, you know, this is how this is how breakthroughs are made. You know, you go back to you know, the late eighteen hundreds when Robert Goddard was in his cherry tree and was thinking about launching, you know, run launching his model rockets and imagine what would it look like to have a rocket that would launch from this meadow and go to Mars. You know, it's a fun

thing. To speculate. But what did that lead to? That led to the development of liquid fuel rockets, which led to the Moon missions and man Mars missions. You know, at this point where we have groups now seriously considering considering the possibility of colonizing Mars, and so this is one hundred years later, so I think these you know, imagination is an important part of

you know, that drives our interest in science now. Now, of course imagination effects our advancement, not necessarily that of anyone else, but it could serve to inform us as to how to perhaps detect spacecraft moving through our interstellar space from star to star, and how to look for civilizations on other worlds and things like this. And this is interesting. Another question I have for you before we move into kind of the topic of your presentation at the event

was at the AAPC, the Anomalous Aerospace Phenomena Conference. I guess what was it like for you For those of us who have been involved. I've been involved with helping this organization grow from the beginning, and for us it was very exciting to have There have been scientific oriented organizations before, but what's great about this group is it's a lot of doers, people who have been in

the business, that to say, for decades working on this mystery. But also they in the past, the scientists involved with this field have not been enthusiastic about sharing information more of research. But what's great about this group is it's more looking towards also sharing information with the public, which is exciting. So it was an exciting event for us and great to have you involved.

How was it for you? Oh? Well, I was very very excited about it, very interested in attending and meeting some of the people there to find out what work has actually been done, what data has actually been gathered, what the possibilities are for future investigations. And I was glad to be surrounded by scientists, people who are actually studying, interested in studying this and actually using a careful methodology to look at the data at hand, as sparse

as it is. And I had several interesting conversations of what could be done next, and and I look forward to working on some of this. Was any of the information surprising to you, you know, just as an outsider, especially related to Luis Alisondo, and that you know the Pentagon was working on some of this and what they were looking at. Uh, yeah, some of that was quite surprising. He mentioned a few things I think during the Q and A that will be coming out in May during the History Channels

docu series. So so I don't want to mention anything specific, but but I was kind of shocked as to some of the encounters that you know, he described, and and I would it would be very exciting to get some real data on that, to get high quality visual images as well as in FRED images and radar data and possibly in spectra that that would be very exciting. And so I'm hoping at some point that that that's some of that data

will be released mm hm. And I guess when you when you see that, I guess, how does it make you feel as a scientist someone interested in space. I mean, it would seem like you would be as excited as the rest of us says. It's pretty exciting. It's exciting, but at the same time, it's frustrating. I at this point they are let's see, I don't I don't quite want to use this word, but because it's not not quite accurate, but they there's still stories, still stories that

you hear from people. Now, these are very reliable people, people who you know if they're if they're joking around or lying, it's costing us, you know, tens of thousands of dollars easily, maybe millions of dollars. So it's a big deal. So they are people I would I would tend to believe. But but they're pretty fantastic stories when you are, you know, pretty fantastic accounts when you when you really get down to it, you you know, you get an idea of what speeds these things are moving at

through the air, but you don't have any sonic booms. You know, they can come to a sudden stop, and you don't have a heat dump, which you you would expect to have. In fact, Peter really and his talk estimated the amounts of energy involved and you're talking, you know, several kilotons of T and T going off per second, you know for some of these craft, which you know, those were his estimates, which I think are are you know, they're ballpark estimates, but they're they're about about

what you would expect for this type of behavior. So so the accounts are surprising and and so yes, it's very exciting at one level, but as a scientist, it's also frustrating because as I would like to see real data. I'd like to see, you know, radar data so that you can get much more precise estimates of the velocities and accelerations and things like that.

Which makes sense, That makes perfect sense. And then I guess one last comment on the conference itself is for to encourage the participation or to make it kind of a safe space for someone like your yourself, who's who's you know, embedded in the scientific community and academic community. How do uh, how do we make a safe space for for people like yourself uh to speak on

this topic, because obviously you've put some thought towards it. Your your presentation showed that it's difficult to do. I think that one of the one of the things that I saw happening was that information was being released pretty much immediately from the conference to the internet. The Internet, as we all know, is a pretty hostile place for pretty much anybody, and so so it's, you know, you can't control the information once it's released onto the internet,

and so it's a difficult balance. You've got people who really want to know, you know, and and share this information, and I really appreciate that, But at the same time, you have if you want scientists to speak and tell you what they know, you have to make them feel secure.

Now, the different the difficulty is that different scientists are going to feel differently and and people are going to feel Some people are going to be more more willing and more open, you know, to talk about what they believe and what they they have figured out, and other people are going to mean more reticent. And I think it's the first thing to do is to really respect

those differences and not second guess them and judge them. I think that this the public community has come to believe that everything is some kind of secret conspiracy and that there's that there's always some ulterior, nefarious motive behind you know, somebody's statements. And I think that's that's difficult. It's in the long run, it's going to they're going to shoot themselves in the foot because if you want people to be open, you need to make them comfortable and listen to

them. So I think that's really all there is to it. I think that you make a really good point, and what you're saying is important because one of the things that we have been experiencing is this, you know, people being excited to release information and releasing it without permission or prior to when they were supposed to do, which is one of the reasons that the group, you know, was so careful with who was coming in and that that

area. So I think the group has to be more careful with the sharing of the information, and it's lessons learned. But you make a great point, and I think that it'll be incoming on us, and I think my listeners will understand to go the route you're talking about being more careful with the information, even if it frustrates the audience, because I've learned this too as a journalist. When you cover scientists, it's it's extremely difficult, and I

think that's why so many journalists get it wrong. They just don't have the patience to work with scientists, and scientists don't always make it easy because they are very careful about the way that their information. That the communicating scientific information, especially when it comes to research or theory, is so nuanced and complicated, and one misstep can cause a very big misunderstanding, which causes problems.

Right, Yeah, that's exactly right. And in fact, if you go back and read earlier scientific papers, even from the early nineteen hundreds, so read a paper by Einstein or something like this, and actually read his paper, you find that what the scientists that in the day used to do is

there used to be speculation. They used to speculate, so they would they would present their results and do it very carefully and correctly, and then the discussion section at the end would usually lapse into speculation on what things might be like or what they believe. And science has moved away from that. In fact, that's any any speculation in a paper is very quickly, very quickly criticized by reviewers and we're not really allowed to We're really not. They really

discouraged that type of behavior at this point. So so now you get into a situation where you know, you you put a scientist in public and a Q and a section session and you ask them, well, what do you think, Well, I'm going to some of that is speculation, and a careful scientist, you know, is going to you say, well, let

me speculate or this is speculation. But very quickly it you know, when this stuff is just released without those you know, those nuanced indications, then then it can become very problematic, right right, And it's also it's also

difficult to respond on the fly like that. I think that, you know, when writing a scientific paper, preparing a talk, it really does take you take you a good period of time to make sure that every statement you're making is correct and is worded to say exactly what you wanted to say. I have always called that making papers bulletproof. I have a colleague in England who calls it making them bomb proof. I guess he writes better papers than

I do. But but you, you, you really do put the time into make sure that that you know, no one can criticize you for the statements you're making. You know, but when you're being asked questions, you know, in a Q and a session, ordering a talk, or or you know at dinner conversation at a table, the situation is very different. It's hard to put those it's hard to make careful statements that are going to be immune from criticism. And then also, yeah, and like you said

earlier, kind of taken out of context. And one of the perpetrators that the U Kate tabloids, bless their hearts, do all not always get the facts straight. Uh, you know, they try to sensationalize in and for instance, you've had an experience, and I was wondering how your experience went. Where they wrote an article about you and your ideas. Yes, I had, well, I had written a piece for an online journal called The

Conversation last uh, last June or so a year ago. They had contacted our immediate department actually and wanted a physicist to write a piece on UFOs, and so I agreed that I would do that, and basically I wrote an opinion piece basically stating that scientists should study these things. That's really all that I said in the in the in the paper. And I spent four days

writing that paper. So I spent a lot of effort in writing it and had it proof read by you know, several of my colleagues before submitting it, and I was and once once it was out, I was surprised at

how much press it got. And then I was surprised at how you would have articles written about my article and so so, despite the fact that I carefully worded things and was very careful in my statements, the articles written about my article were you know, much more highly speculative and made some statements about

what I had said that I didn't really say. You know, For instance, I think one headline was that, you know, former NASA scientists says that government's hiding information on UFOs or something, and I was I remember one one afternoon, I just buried my head in my hands and I thought, oh my god, what have I done? This is I've now learned a very valuable lesson. This is what happens when a scientist steps outside the scientific

community and interacts with the public. And I'm sure that I'm sure politicians feel this on a daily basis, but I but that's the first day that I really felt it. And there's nothing you can do about it. I can't take it back. I can't you know, I can't make a statement to clarify or correct it. And you just have to let it, let it

go, which is which is a tough thing to do, right. And I can't remember his name, cause I know it's something like Cosmo, but the scientists spoke recently at SETI kind of making the same argument you were making, that it's something that we need to look into at least to keep an eye you know are Oh, yeah, I was friend. I worked with

him at NASA. Ames yeah, so, and then of course he's he's kind of like shied away from from speaking at all in the public because his argument, similar to yours, was completely misconstrued out there, and so much so that he's just like, well, I'm not going to talk to any of you anymore. And uh, that's part of the problem that happens.

Yeah, it is, and it's and and it's you know, you can it's easy to blame the blame the scientists for it, but you know, they're the ones putting their career on the line doing this and putting the reputation on the line. So it's a it's a difficult thing, you know, if you if you want the information, if you want information from somebody,

you have to make it come, make them comfortable to tell you. Yeah, I agree, And I think our goal is going to be, at least with with any influence I have, especially being kind of the press guy with the group, well, default to making the scientists comfortable rather than the public, just because that's that's who we're trying to get involved in, trying to make a safe space for Yeah, and I and I think that if

they feel comfortable, they'll tell you. I think we you know, most scientists are very excited about the work that they do, and you know, this is what we're interested in, this is what drives us, this is what we think about twenty four to seven. And I think that we are Most scientists are eager to share, share their thoughts on the topics that interest them. So I think that, yeah, that'll go a long way. So we've got a break coming up here, and then we will get into

what you talked about at the conference, which I find extremely interesting. However, one last question before we go to break, is you know, having said what you said earlier about this kind of avoiding speculation, Uh, it is interesting. And I find it really interesting that papers that come out such as the Tabby Star. Uh it was actually in that original paper that came out where they speculated on the potential uh, intelligent civilization or dysent sphere hypothesis.

Yeah, that is interesting and and and I find that I think that that that speculation is an important part of science. You're you're basically considering potential hypotheses. And and I think that it's it's not it's not helpful helpful to to stop scientists from speculator. They should be speculating. That's part of what we do. And it's good for us to do that out in the open with other scientists so that there can be a discourse. All right, well,

thank you so much for that discussion. For the first part, we're going to go take a break real quick here. We'll be back in just a few seconds. Those of you listening on a radio station, we'll hear a commercial break. The rest of you will hear a short musical interlude, and once we're back, we'll be back with Professor Kevin Kanouth to talk more

about UFOs. Welcome back to Open Mind GFO Radio. This is Alejandro Rojas, your host for the show, and I'm talking to Professor Kevin can and we're actually going to now get into your talk at the at the AAPC, which was constrained on breakaway societies engaged in relativistic interstellar travel. And it's funny you use that framework because I'm not sure if you're aware, but there is

a conspiracy theory about breakaway societies. Have you heard about that. I have heard about that, and I and I think that's probably where the term originally originated, or just where it originated. But here I mean something a bit different, so right, which is really interesting. So I guess to begin with, you had a quote at the beginning of your your talk which I think is important. Ah. Yes, it was a quote from Melov and

Matt Love's The Starflight Handbook. Basically it says, interstellar travel may still be in its infancy, but adulthood is adulthood is fast approaching, and our descendants was some days childhood's end. So we're really getting close to traveling faster and faster. And I think this graph than that you showed next was really important, kind of outlying how fast have we gone, what speeds have we achieved, and what speeds are we looking at? And you separate two areas.

One area in particular you were looking at was the region of extraordinary propulsion, And how would you define that that? Let's see, So that graph I got from a paper by Garcia Escartine and Chamorrow Posada from Acta Astronautica, and

the paper is called Scouting the Spectrum for Interstellar Travelers. And basically they designated that region of extraordinary propulsion as being a region that basically is an order of magnitude a factor of ten times faster than the fastest objects we've observed, the fastest natural objects we've observed. So the fastest objects we've observed are basically hypervelocity neutron stars that we're observed going about about a half a percent the speed of

light, so so ten times faster than that. You're basically looking at looking at five percent the speed of light as being the region of extraordinary propulsion. Those are basically the speeds you need to achieve to be able to perform interstellar travel to the nearest stars in tens of years basically. And we're breaching this in that are proposed Orion starship, and assuming this is with the SLS rocket system, that we will be kind of at the cusp of those areas of

speed. Well, I think the Orion Starship was a was a nuclear fusion starships, so those were some using nuclear power. I don't think we're quite at that stage yet, we're I think the fastest object, the fastest propulsion that's been considered is this are the basically using a laser to shine onto a small solar sale to accelerate a craft out of the Solar system. And so some of this this technique's being considered for what does it break through starshot?

I think it's called which is a mission. They're intending to send small cell phone sized probes to Alpha century. This way, the expected speeds should be up to about twenty percent the speed of light, So that means you're basically going to get there in about twenty years twenty year travel time to Alpha century. And okay, so, which just kind of we're getting close or at least we're starting to have ideas. Yeah, we're having we have ideas,

and we're trying. So that's that's the good thing. M hm. So and then to speak kind of, uh, I guess to move this along to uh, I'll like you kind of bring us there. I guess to get to your breakaway kind of theory or idea here. Sure, I'm basically I had you know, growing up watching science fiction, you always have your heroes, you know, dash off at warp speed or go through hyperspace, which is effectively faster than light travel, so they can get from one star

system to another and in a short period of time. And basically, I like to think of it this way. You want to it's it's not a fun it's not a fun science fiction story. If it takes them fifty years to get to the to the star system they want to get to, and then they have to come back because by the time they come back it's one hundred years later. They're late for dinner, very late for dinner, and

so it doesn't make for a good science fiction tale. So a lot of science fiction focuses on faster than light travel, and I think that that has kind of that fact has kind of biased people, even scientists, into believing that the only way to get to the nearest stars is to go faster than light. Now, some scientists, some physicists who've really thought about this, would realize, well, wait a minute, you don't have to go faster than light. You can go as long as you get up to relativistic speeds.

You get going some reasonable percentage of the speed of light, you find that relativity works for you. It actually helps you out in that going very fast, you know, the clocks on the spacecraft will be going moving more slowly relative to the and the rest of the galaxy. And so while it may take one hundred years for the ship to travel, you know, some distance to the nearest star, it will only for the travelers, depending on how fast they go, it may only take you know, a few days

to months or whatever. It depends. It depends on the speed, so you A lot of physicists have realized that using relative with relativity will work in your favor if you get going close to the speed of light. However, we don't have the technology to do this. There are very serious engineering challenges.

The amount of energy required is insane. The fact that you're going to be barreling through space at close to the speed of light, You're going to fly into things, so you need to be able to shield your craft from that. Space isn't empty. You've got about one hydrogen atom per cubic meter, and so now when you're traveling at close to relativistic speeds from the perspective

of the traveler, the distances actually get shortened. So this whole the space between you and the plant and the star system you're heading to, actually shrinks and it's compressed. But what that does is that means that these these very diffuse hydrogen atoms in space are basically compressed, and so before you know it, you're flying through a wall of hydrogen gas at close to the speed of

light, which will tear your ship apart in very short order. So so I think most scientists who have realized that you could travel from you know, star to star moving at relativistic speeds. While that physically would work, the engineering challenges are so so difficult that it's it's not really worth considering that. And the and the other problem is that for those at home, it's still going to take you hundreds of years to do it. So I've I've actually

heard a lot of scientists say, so, what's the point? What civilization would would do this? And I was reading about that once and I actually came across that statement. You know, it's even if you can go relativistic speeds, the traveler could could traverse those distances, but it would still take years for those at home. So what civilization would ever undertake such a challenge?

And I thought, well, it wouldn't be so bad if you were traveling with your friends, because you just would meet up with your friends again and then you could you could share information, and so it wouldn't you know, that would that would work? And then then I realized that you really would have to if you were an interstellar traveler traveling at relativistic speeds, you would have to abandon this idea of having a home world because you can't go

home again. It's equivalent really to racing ahead into the future. So I imagined that, you know, you can still ask the question, what society would do that? Well, there are societies who who just travel. We call them nomads. They're nomadic. And would anybody really do that? Well, you can ask yourself, would anybody really sign up to be part of SpaceX's Mars Colony project or one way trip to Mars? Yeah, hundreds of people sign up for that. Of course people would sign up for it.

People are crazy, You'll do all sorts of things. So I thought, you know, well, these societies you could you could do this if you were nomadic, this would be really pretty straightforward, as long as you had the technology, which would have to comforcome those serious engineering challenges. But if you had that technology, then you know, I could travel off to a star system thirty light years away. You could travel off to another one thirty

light years away. We could agree to meet back here in a few months, and for us it would be a few months later. For everybody back here on Earth it would be sixty years later. But so what who cares you? And I are me back and that's that was the idea, right, So it's so interesting space time nomads is what you call them. And you have this picture of which I think is a perfect picture because it's what

I envisioned. Two. When you first said it is a battlestar Galactica, that armada, you know, where they were, it was the same thing. They were a breakaway society looking for somewhere to live, whereas what you're talking about is more of a society going to be I guess, committed to exploration and and even though yeah, because they would be on their own if if they left Earth at these tremendous speeds and then came back, they may

have gone to Alpha Centauri and back. And in their time it only was a couple of years, but in our time it was it was hundreds of years. And so that's what why they would be once they left, they're saying goodbye to the rest of civilization. That's that's right, yep, really, and it's kind of stunned me. When I started working the numbers, I was really surprised. I thought, realize that, wow, if you traveled at if you traveled at one hundred, well, if you traveled at

a one g acceleration, which is the acceleration of gravity. And you could maintain that acceleration, you could get across the galaxy in about twenty years your time. And and I thought, wow, that's actually much better than you know, plans that I've heard on getting at Alpha century. So I was I was rather surprised that you could traverse those those great distances that quickly.

Now, of course, going from one side of the galaxy to the other, it's going to you know, for everybody on Earth, it'll take eighty thousand years for us to get there. You know, a one G acceleration, and a one G acceleration will put you into speeds well above ninety nine percent the speed of light, so you'll be going very relativistic at that point. M Yeah, it's a really interesting idea. And so and what you've put together like it seems like the precision would have to be very accurate.

So because one thing you reposes at this large group, let's say a Battlestar Galactica type armata could head out and then some decide to go explore one area, some explore another, and then they have these meetup points. But right it would do they have to be extremely precise, like to to the second or even more. Ah, yeah, they'd have to be relatively precise.

You'd you would have to have, you know, you'd require some dwell time in the system that you're visiting, you know, to make meetups more probable. So these either would have to be planned well in advance, or you'd have to come up with a strategy for for creating a network of traveling paths that such that the distances are commensurate and you'll end up meeting at meeting every

now and again at certain in certain places. So I started, I basically started modeling this to see what type of constraints that would put on your your the topology of the travelers network. And so I'm still I'm still working on

this to see how this could work. But it's pretty cool. You have this video where you show at least one network that you modeled, where you know, these crafts kind of all had out from one point and head out to where they're exploring and then also head back to meet up points and such.

Right, Yeah, So in that example, I just had them travel to a location and then and then like a caravan to a location and then the caravan would split up to other locations and continue kind of like a tree graph, and at every point they could either travel to a new destination or go back to an old one. And I ran that simulation for two thousand and thirty years of time in the galaxy and and just to see how this

would work for the travelers. The amount of time that the travelers experienced ranged from from about eight months to two years, so so, and so it kind of surprised me that, you know, you've got you don't have that much dispersion in time, even over a two thousand year time period in the galaxy. And if they were a little more careful about what star systems they visited, and they're the distances that they traveled, they don't need to travel

in straight lines. They could ark slightly to increase the path length. If they made those path links commensurate, then you'd increase the probability of meetups, which would which would work mm hmm. Now there's a danger if you're late to a meetup or if you have a breakdown, you're kind of you're out

of the network. I mean, yeah, if you well, if you're late, if you're late, you can hopefully catch up with somebody at another meetup at some other point and another system and another time that would be good. A breakdown would be very bad. So I'd imagine that you'd probably travel in caravans rather than rather than individually. Traveling as an individual would be extremely

dangerous. If you break down your you are likely not to see anybody you know from your society for another you know, hundreds of thousands of years, so you can't just sit around and wait for somebody to help you. It would depend on it would depend on the density of travelers in the network as well, So so depending on how many travelers there are, you know, if you're not traveling in a caravan, would tell you how often new travelers

arrive at a destination. So so while these are all these are basically parameters in the models that would describe how a society like this would behave and an interesting uh you bring up some points so for instant that uh you know. One of the things that we saw at the conference was this estimation of of what uh speed you know, the object at the two thousand and four Nimits encounter might have been achieving given the observations of the pilot that David fever and

others. So those are extreme speeds. Those are potential evidence that there might be somebody out there who's been able to figure out this sort of thing out and they could be doing what you're talking about, and if they are, it leads to an interesting perspective on their side, which would, for instance, as you put it, make it so there's no reason to make friends with the locals. Right. Yeah, Basically I had to get some idea

of what speeds you might see. I basically estimated some of the accelerations in some of these cases, including the Nimt's case that Robert Paul and Peter Reality looked at, and I found the accelerations basically ranging from hundreds of geesleration to

two thousand plus j's of accelerations. So so I think in my models that I used, I used it about one hundred g acceleration and with you know, if you if so, if these craft could sustain that kind of acceleration for a period of time, then if you accelerated from you know, from the Sun to your destination, and if you accelerate halfway and then decelerat at that rate the other half of the way, you could literally traverse the galaxy

in about one hundred and twenty days of ship time, so less than four months of travel time to get from one side of the galaxy the other, which I thought would be really amazing. So so I took that as evid you know, so the people often asked the question, you know, with these craft, why do people quickly assume that they're spacecraft? And I think the answer is because the accelerations are those what you would expect to see in a spacecraft, and in fact, these aren't just this wouldn't be the ones

we saw that were encountered in the Nimtz case. They would just be just any ordinary spacecraft. They'd be excellent spacecraft. So I think that's interesting now

they and then and then again. So the point is that if you're traveling from one side of the galaxy to the other, or even or even just a few hundred LA years, there's really no reason to make friends with the locals, because the next time you're here visiting, that's that civilization you were visited, you visited last time you were here, would be could potentially be gone. So if so, if you, for instance, by if you're traversing the galaxy, you know, it's going to take you eighty thousand years

to get from one side to the other. That's one hundred sixty thousand years. So an individual who was who visited Earth and then went to the other side of the galaxy and came back and came back at present day, that means the last time they were here on Earth was one hundred sixty thousand years ago. Well, there were no people here then, no society. There were people, but there were no societies. And if they if they intend to do and nothing to make another trip like that, they won't be back

again for one hundred and sixty thousand years. So why why bother landing on the White House lawn? There isn't going to be a White House the next time they come back, right, And another point you made was that you know there has been talked about the similarity in what people have witnessed, you

know, back in the forties to what they witnessed now. Well, in this scenario that you put forth, even though you know something was seen in the forties and then seen again in the two thousands, it you know could have gone somewhere and come back and to that craft, it's only been maybe last time it was here was lunch and now it's the afternoon. So it's

the same craft, right exactly. Yeah, that's one thing that really surprised me because in that simulation I ran, I ran it for two thousand years, and it was only you know, anywhere from eight months to two years

for those individual crafts. So if you imagine, you know, there were sightings of flying shields in ancient Rome, and if we would assume that those shields were actually one of these spacecraft, then it could actually be the same individuals in the same spacecraft that came back a second time, you know, in present day, and the last time they were here was too millennia ago. That's very possible. And so why don't the craft change design? Why

don't they why don't they improve? You know, why don't they Why don't you see technological improvements in these craft? Well, because they're the same craft, and that would be that would be the answer in this case, which I thought was pretty surprising, but it would make some kind of sense mm hmm. And then a unique opportunity you talk about to kind of observe evolution.

Yeah, that I thought was really exciting. And I then thought, well, what I what if I traversed the galaxy, you know, if I, if I, if I did when did this, I would have have, you know, every trip across the galaxy, every round trip I'd take, would be one hundred and sixty thousand years so of time in the galaxy. So if I in a fifty year lifespan, I could conceivably traverse the galaxy one hundred and fifty times, and that would be equivalent to racing

ahead about twelve million years into the future. So I it would be very interesting because you could literally watch, you know, twelve million years of evolution happen on a planet, you know, at some sparse interval one hundred and fifty thousand year intervals, which would be really interesting. I mean, you're their biologists would be looking at biology at a very different scale than we study biology, and I think that's you know, they would be studying biology like

paleontologists study biology. So you would have the opportunity to watch evolution at work. And heck, you could experiment with it if you wanted to. I think that's interesting and interesting possibility as well. Yeah, you know what really hits me about your discussion and this idea also is that we're not, especially when you look at your original graph with you know, the speeds we're looking to achieve in a fairly fairly near well at least, you know, ideas

that we think we can build craft they can move at certain speeds. The potential exists for the not too distant future. And I would imagine, just like you talked about, you know, people willing to go to Mars on this one way trip. It's very realistic that there could be a group of people that decide to do this and I think so, yeah, and spend their life gathering amazing information, taking a planet and observing its evolution. I mean, it's pretty extraordinary. Yeah, if you if I didn't have a

family, you could sign me up. Well, this is really interesting. I know that there will be more information up about your talk on the SEU site eventually, but I do want to say thank you very much for participating. And you know, as far as the future goes, do you think that there is people interested in this topic? Do you think there's hope? Do you see like kind of a positive movement in the scientific community that at

least began to be open to speculation in this area. I do. I was nervous about the article that I wrote for The Conversation where I basically said that we should be studying these phenomena, and I was worried about what kind of backlash or commentary I would get from other scientists. And I was very surprised to see that I gotten a good number of emails from other scientists and the responses were all positive. They were all bravos. Somebody needed to say

this for a long time. We've needed to study these things for a long time. It's been you know, fifty or seventy years, and nobody's really looked at this seriously, and we ought to. And those were basically the kinds of comments that I got. I got comments like that, ranging from that to to I've been studying this in secret for for this many years, and I have, you know, images of plasma around these objects that I'm

trying to study, and I'm you know, and things like this. You know, we should get together and compare notes and I'll show you what I know. And so I had had a lot of people very interested. And so I'm hoping that a scientific conference like SEUs would be you know, is going to grow in size and you'll see more scientists than next time around. Mm hm. And do you know ed did you hear any feedback from that Harvard professor? Do you think you influenced him? And all Abby Lowbe?

I believe his name is oh Ave Lobe. Yeah, I don't. I don't know him personally, and I didn't have any feedback from him. I don't know what if, you know, if if my article influenced him at all, or if it's just the you know, a sign of the times. I think that the Luis Alisondo coming out with the announcement about a tip was a big deal, and I think it'll be a bigger deal after May.

And I think that people are realizing that, you know, our government's been studying these things for a long time and they continue to study them.

I think that'll be a kind of it will be a revelation to some and and in fact, there's other governments studying them as well, and may that may induce some governments of some of these other countries to come out and say, yeah, I know we've studied these things too, and and and I'm hoping that that scientists will get involved and we can start figuring out what these things are. And in some cases they may be natural phenomena that are worth

learning about. And in other cases they might be artificial, you know, made by somebody else, maybe not maybe, and maybe extraterrestrial. That's interesting too. So if I look at it this way, if there were extraterrestrial craft visiting Earth, we would all want to know about it. We all ought to know about it. So it's worth looking into and so and it's worth studying. Well, thank you so much for joining me this morning or afternoon for you, I guess out there on the East coast. But thank

you so much for joining. This has been so very interesting and I look forward to one day having you back. All right, thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much to Kevin for being on the show. It was so great to have him. I guess you could google his name and also look him up at the Albany State University of New York and to read more about him. But he's got a lot of really cool stuff going on. Of course in the science world, he's doing lots of cool

stuff as well. The lecture that he did for the Scientific Coalition before you fall it at this event, this AAPC event, was great, So we kind of covered generalized what he was talking about, but I can't wait for you to see the full presentation. He said. He did permission for the SEU to post that, so keep an eye at explore SCU dot org. And it looks like they're going to be putting the videos up in the AAPC

link, so you can see that there. And they've got pictures from the event of all of the presenters and it looks like that's where they're going to put the videos as well. So very excited for you all to see that because there were just some incredible lectures, including Kevin's here, and actually there were funnier jokes in the presentation too. Kevin, It's just absolutely a ton of fun to listen to, and his lecture was a lot of fun.

So really happy to have him involved in and thankful that we have someone of his stature and background, you know, to be here to answer questions and to speculate and give us some magic ideas on some things that could be going

on out there. I think that one of the things I really love about is talk is this perspective thing that if time is much different to whatever may be coming here, if there is something coming here then that may explain some of their enigmatic behavior and or motivations, and that we haven't really taken a lot of that into consideration. I don't think, so really interesting to hear

him talk on that. Also, congratulations to the SCU for putting together an event that I think is one of the most important ones too have been put together on all of this, so great job to them. Be sure to check out explore SCU dot org for the official releases of information. And then Kevin talked about control and making sure that information is released properly and of course that all of the proper permissions are obtained are very very very important to scientists.

So you'll be able to find the official releases of information at explore SCU dot com. By the way, if you're interested in helping out the Scientific Coalition for Ufology, there are a couple positions they are looking for. I

actually am helping out. You know. My aspect is as an advisor when it comes to the press and communications and things like that, and to that effect, one of the things we're looking at, at least for internal communications is someone who can help with that, help with maybe sending out emails, board even more so being in the board meetings and taking notes and sharing that information internally as well, So this is kind of an internal information gathering and

sharing responsibility. But what's great about this is that this position's going to be able to keep up to speed on all of the really cool things that SCU is looking to do. What are they looking to do. They obtain entries essentially white papers, investigations that people have done out there, and then they reveal them like a scientific organization would do, to make sure that the science is vetted it's good science, good research, and then those are posted.

Really there's only a couple of papers that have been out there, but there are some in the mix as well that are under review currently. So we're going to see really good stuff coming from this group going forward. And already you can click on a link called papers and you're going to see a lot of case reports, science papers. Not all of these are SCU papers, but papers that have been written in the past that are our scientific papers.

So this is kind of going to be a repository for everybody on scientific analysis and information regarding this topic. So really good stuff. But these guys did a great job. So if you're interested in helping on doing some of that internal communications. Get a hold of me. You can send an email to Paranormal Reporter at gmail dot com. Also, you can go to my Facebook or my Twitter. Just look for Alejandro Rojas. If you type Alejandro Rojas UFOs, you're gonna find me. So yeah, send me a message and

we'll get you rolling on that. Thank you very much for your interests, and thanks for meeting some of you guys at SEU, some of my listeners, because my listeners are extremely intelligent. Although not all of you have PhDs, you all should and you could if you wanted to. You know, if you had the time, you could do it. You guys are like super geniuses. But it was great to have so many listeners there and to be able to meet some of you. So that was a lot of fun,

and in fact I wanted to do some shout outs. Kevin, who I met. That's the name of someone I met. I met a lot of people, but in particular I want to say hello and thank you to some of my patrons. So I want to say thank you to Amy, to Andrew, to David, to Evan, to Gary Guillame, James, Jason, Joseph Kendra, Kevin, Layla, let's see who else Less and maybe Leela, Laila, Richard, Ron and Ryan and let's see there's a

couple more. Stewart, thank you all so much to you know, patron's new and old for helping me with what I do at the Patreon website. It's a ton of help. It's greatly appreciated. And if you are a Patreon member, you can go there and see more information as well and contact me on there, and I do share some secret information there. In fact, with my patreons, I kind of shared more information about what I'm up

to and what I'm going to be doing in the future. So you can go check that out there if you're a Patron, otherwise just listen to the show. I'll share that information with you either way. More information getting shared with you about the UFO Congress, So if you were getting the Open Minds newsletters, you know there. We have been in this transition for email,

so the email server we have is not working. That's why I didn't say send an email to contacted open minds dot com instead, you know what, I've been trying to work with that, But the UFO Congress has got their email system up, and it's kind of a lot of the people that were on the really it was hard to tell the difference because the Congress and Open Minds were combined and now the Congress is just separate. So you may get emails from the UFO Congress. Please don't hit the junk mail if you don't

want those emails. If you don't want them, that is just fine. I totally understand, but do hit the unsubscribed button and you will be unsubscribed. Don't hit that junk mail when that hurts us. But I would really recommend that you stay on the email list because you're going to get the latest information that we're sharing right on that list. So you're going to get Open Minds information, information about this podcast, information about the conference itself. And

we have a lot of great speaker coming up to the conference. I'll tell you Lou is going to be there, and a lot of things related to what Lou is up to. So for a little hint on some of the great speakers speaking of which, of course, one of the big things Lou's Alessando is up to with to the Stars Academy and Tom DeLong in that whole group working with Lou Alessando, the former chief of that Pentagon UFO project, who spoke at the SCU is this History Channel show that they have coming up

called Unidentified and it's going to be really important. Lou says he's seen some episodes that they're really good. What he's seems so far that they're working with very professional people. This is some of what he's shared at the conference. Of course, I'm going to have an interview with him in just the next few weeks where we'll talk about more of all of this, But he did share with us that much of what he couldn't share is going to be in

the show. So for example, there the Nimitz case is incredible and it's just an extraordinary case. We've talked a lot about it. The two thousand and four case, it was in the New York Times article that you know, kind of released the information on Alexander and the Pentagon program. You'll see more about that too when you see the video of the SEU analysis on that. But you will also see on the television show even more cases that the

Pentagon Project worked on and witnesses from these events as well. So finally, what we've all been waiting for what we've all been hoped hoping for. It's going to be in this History Channel project program that's coming up here, so really exciting. That show starts up in May, and we should have a lou on before that us even more so that'll be really exciting as well.

So Otherwise, check out Openminds dot tv. All of those stories that Martin and I spoke about at the beginning of the program I have listed on the front page there under the UFO headlines. Also check out ufocongress dot com for updates. We'll be opening tickets and putting up speaker lists soon. Also at ufocongress dot com there's a store with a bunch of really cool UFO and Alien

products that you'll want to check out. So if you're into that sort of thing, wearing those clothes and stuff, they're super cool, so check out the store there. Otherwise, I want to thank Martin Willis a podcast UFO for joining us at the beginning of the show. I want to thank Systematics for the bumper music, Caleb Hanks for the amazing open and closed music. And finally, of course I want to thank you the listener for being here.

Once again, thank you for hanging in there. It's been a few weeks since we've had a show, but we're going to be better, and we'll have another great show next week and a bunch of incredible shows coming up. We're kind of got a new era, I feeled, you know, like moving in a more credible and important direction with this topic than we've ever done before, So we'll probably have some slight changes coming in and just kind

of bringing everything to a better and higher level. So this is all going to be a lot of fun, and it's going to be fun having you all along on this journey as well. So thank you all so much for listening. Until next time, Audio Smooth, Chochos, You mus