Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am here with Martin Oldfeller. Willis old who old fella? And now I feel bad about saying that. You know, oh that reminds me because someone had accused me of teasing you and making fun of you and stuff like that. And I say old the lytric because you were just talking about antiques and stuff like that, which was is a lot of
fun. I love that topic. And then I said this, and I was like, oh, no, that person's going to think I'm being mean to Martin again. No, actually I take that remark well, because I do. I am a lover of antiques, which is kind of a Antiques and UFOs don't really mix. But unless you're in a way I want to try to engine aliens, I don't know, well, even nineteen forty seven when all those you know, the government was looking into UFOs, that was
way before my time. So that's that's kind of antique ish to me. It is fun anyway, having fun here in New Hampshire, getting ready for an estate sale, so finding some real goodies, having a good time. That's awesome. That's fun. And I should say, and I'm going to take this opportunity to say that I certainly do not intend to disparage or make fun of you at all, Martin. In fact, just the fact that I have you on my show demonstrates that that very very very high level of
respect. I'm having fun, and I hope nobody feels like, you know, I'm making fun of Martin or making them look badly. I'm certainly not trying to, because I think the world of Martin Willis, And you know, it's great to take the chance to say I think Martin Willis is super duper awesome. And I really love talking UFOs with you, so it's a pleasure to talk with you every week. So wow, I hope you never have felt that I've made fun of you. I haven't meant to. No,
Yeah, no, all in good fun. And you know, I'm speechless. That's very really And the awkward pauses and stuff that's fun, that's charming. That's not a bad thing in my eyes. I don't feel it as a bad thing. Yeah, on my own show, I was known to do awkward well you know what about it takes a certain knackt it does, and it's fun. These days. Yeah, So moving on, let's see, Well, let me tell him about my guests. Oh, this is an exciting show. People, you're gonna love this. My guest is
retired colonel doctor John Alexander. And some people may be going, oh, man, that's a disinformation dude, man what But you know what is funny and what we're going to be talking about is also exciting a topic that people love, which is a skinwalker ranch. Oh, that's this ranch in Utah. You know that was purchased by Robert Bigelow, who's a real estate mogul out of Las Vegas who now is running Bigelow Aerospace and actually has a component
on the International Space Station. He's also very much a UFO enthusiast into the topic. He's funded a lot of UFO investigations and paranormal type of investigations, including investigating this strange ranch in Utah, which is a favorite topic of many people. And John Alexander, who's been friends with mister Bigelow for a very long time. We'll talk about how that friendship started in this interview was on the ranch and part of that whole investigation. So we'll talk to John about
that. In fact, I have an interview on YouTube with him about the ranch. It's one of our most viewed YouTube videos, and so I thought that would be a lot of fun because there's been some stories about the ranch in the news lately, and I thought it'd be fun to talk to John about it. Right, and it's sold, right, it did sell. Yeah, that's what those stories were. And funny enough, John even realize that. But it has sold, so Bigelow does not own it anymore.
And these stories essentially were about people trying to get on the ranch and everything, and these people are harassed by people. So I think they this story headlines said something like paranormal turns into prosecutable because they're really getting upset at these people trying to come onto their land and look for UFOs and weirdness. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that that happening. And no trespassing is no trespassing exactly. They can throw the lot at them for sure. Yeah,
they actually there are. I think they have to be breaking into home to shoot well, I don't know, in different states. Yeah, yeah, you're right. But John is also speaking at the UFO Congress, and that's what's funny. People call him a disinformation is because he's he was in the army and in Army intelligence and he looked into UFOs and paranormal phenomena while he was in there, and because he feels that the government doesn't have much in
the way of secrets, at least any organized sort of investigation. That people think he's a disinformation person, But he's into a lot of different stuff, as we'll find out in this interview and on his lecture at the UFO Congress where he's going to talk about his own sighting and the other paranormal phenomena that he feels are related to his sighting and this field, which I think is
going to be fascinating. So it's great, and you know what, to his in his defense, all of these conspiracies people have, there's really no proof to point to any of it. There's conjecture, there's a few, there are some witnesses and you know stories. I think that we've got a really good series going right now, and I'm really excited about our next UFO magazine, Open Mind's UFO Magazine, we're going to be putting on YouTube because
we're delving into the files of where are these UFO investigations going? And I think that's fascinating. There's some evidence in proof. But have you ever had him on your show? I have, yes, and I really I just remember it being a really good show, and I didn't I thought I was going to get some flack about the disinformation aspect of our conversation that could be construed someone could say it was but I didn't get the bad feedback like I
expected. Actually, so he's intelligent, very interesting man. Yeah, yeah, a very unique insight and so I just I really love talking to the guy, especially about Skinwalker. This topic is a lot of fun. So I think you're going to really love this. But before we do that, how about we get into some UFO news. I got a doozy today, but you start us off, I will this and I'm sure hope we didn't do this last week, but if we did, it wasn't posted on your
site yet. This is about a strange luminous UFO caught on security camera in England. The story was written by Alejandro Rulehols and it talks about this odd luminous orb and I agree, I would consider it that it had to do with a camera that was like a security type camera and it was also motion triggered. They think their cat Alpha might have triggered it. Actually, this was this happened while they were gone, so it's about I think it's like
forty two seconds long or something like that. And what you do see is you see this orb go through the rooftops or you know, by the rooftops, and then it changes direction comes back. Now I know from having one of these IP cameras myself that you and with a motion sensor you can get some weird images from insects and things like that, but this certainly is no insect and when it changes direction, it comes back it really that was the
part that was Wow. That was an amazing video and I strongly suggested the listener check that video out. It's right on open Mind's TV under one of the links called security camera. Something strang caught on security camera. Yeah, strange luminous ufo caught on security camera in England. And yeah, this one was weird. I think I mentioned it a bit on the last one, but I hadn't written the story, so there was more information such as I
misspoke. It wasn't the cat, they said. I love this quote too, They said it couldn't have been our cat Alfie as he was in the cattery while we were on holiday. I guess I miss that. Yeah, well that's because I agree. They have catteries over there. Yeah, that's kind of a category. But they have doggeries too. I don't know. It would be puppery. I would, oh, that would be good at puppery for little puppies. That'd be cuter puppery. But what's great is now
I have. I also have which I didn't have is the investigation. So John Turnbull was the investigator. He's the move On National director for Great Britain, and he closed it as insufficient data. Although I think that I don't know. I think you could argue unknown might have been good because he's essentially
said that he interviewed the people. He looked at the video. He said, there's clearly a bright white object that appears to be under some sort of control, and it comes back, changes direction and has sort of a trail that it's leaving, so he can't classify it as conventional and since he is un able to elucidate any further, he said, he closed it as an
insufficient data. So that is interesting. People have commented since, and some people have commented that the object is so far away it's hard to tell if it was a drone or not. And I suppose, I agree, if there's anything it could be. It could possibly be some sort of quad copter or something. But it is clearly behind the houses and then comes around in front of them, which is pretty odd, a very odd video, I
think. Mm hmm, yeah, I don't know. It seems it doesn't seem drone like to me, but that may be just my you know, it's only one like, yeah, so I would agree with you. I didn't get that feeling at first, but I suppose it's possible. Hm hmm, that's right. So yeah, that's a good one. Good one, dude, good one, all right, yeah, all right? Yeah five, this is another good one. So I'm really excited about this one. I pounded this out and did you know, was rushing to get this out.
Uh, this story and this is the wiki leaks. So if anybody saw the debate this weekend, they were talking about some New Week WikiLeaks email they were well, they weren't so shocking. One headline I read, which was really funny, is that, uh that that the emails showed that Hillary was boring or something. Because these were a lot of democratic, more democratic
emails that were posted, including emails from Podesta John Podesta. Now you and I of course have talked about Podesta quite a bit because he is Hillary's campaign manager. He used to work for Obama as an advisor. He was Obama's transition manager when Obama took over the White House, you know, eight years ago now, and so very prominent figure. He was also the chief of staff for the Clintons, and he is very into UFOs, has been for
a long time, even during this campaign. He's kind of challenged people for a while to ask Hillary about UFOs, and he talked about UFOs and some of his tweets. He's a he's a tweeter. But his emails got hacked, and now we know, we do know. I'm at least the law enforcement is, you know, finally made it official that yes, it was Russia who has been doing these hacking of the Democratic Party's emails, and so they did release some of his emails, again mostly boring, and but there
are a suite of emails to him regarding UFOs. Most of these are pretty boring, you know, just people either UFO references in the news, like there's a reference to a missile test that you know, people mistook where UFO meant thing about Kusinich, but also some guy talking about terrorism and some other things. One guy this was kind of sad who was kind of getting he
was upset about German immigration. He stated Germany's immigration disaster deniers have as much credibility as alien abduct These spirited away in a UFO with Bigfoot at the controls. So that was one of the funny comments. There's kind of an odd one. Of course, some people believe this. I think it's kind of odd. Personally. There's some guy who's writing, Hey, Podesta and he c C McCain and some other people, and he's like, you gotta tell
Hillary she's got the climate change thing all wrong. Oh yeah, I saw that. You saw this. It's actually Nibaru or planet X, which comes around every thirty six hundred years or so, and it's gravity is pulling on our planet. We can't see it now because it's in the Sun's glare. So I guess if the astronomers would just kind of cover their eyes from the Sun's glare, they'd be, oh, look, there it is, So
maybe that would help. But that was kind of a funny one, but one that is being made a big deal about, which is much less of a big deal than people think. Is this one from edgar Mitchell. And this is kind of funny because this demonstrates how the UK tabloids are so terrible at reporting news. They're awful and they get it. They over sensationalize and are just completely misleading and inaccurate. Their headline is revealed Hillary Clinton had secret
meetings with NASA astronaut to discuss aliens. Completely absolutely false. So and I have links to the actual emails so you can look at them. What had happened was there is an email to John Podesta requesting a meeting with edgar Mitchell. Now it makes it look like the email is from edgar Mitchell. However, if you look at the email address and you follow that, you find that it's actually from a woman named Terry Mansfield. And she's somewhat I mean,
some of you might have heard of her. She's a UFO researcher. Her website says that they educate humans about work with our nonviolent, obedient to God extraterrestrial intelligence from contiguous Universe, whose mission is to work with our scientists to bring zero point energy here for the purpose of extending life on our fragile earth, so little fringe, you know, she's kind of and she says they only fundraise with billionaires, so yeah, which is kind of interesting.
Anyway, that's who the email came from, either her or her colleague. She works with, Suzanne, and so the email is requesting a meeting to talk about zero point energy with edgar Mitchell. Now, the question was did edgar Mitchell know they sent this email. He probably did. He's into this kind of stuff, They're the type of people he hung out with, so he probably did. But did Podesta reply. That's something we did not know. And so that's why it was ridiculous that they assumed that there was some
sort of meeting, because it doesn't look like Podesta replied at all. And interesting enough, Grant Cameroon, who you had on your show recently, he actually did some research this morning and we've been talking on Facebook and he got a hold of Terry Mansfield and they said, yeah, edgar Mitchell did ask us to send the email, but we never got a reply and there was no meeting, So no meeting actually happened. Wow. Oh, and I know I guess they did talk with Badesta's aid a little bit, and so
there was a little bit of conversation, but a meeting never happened. Yes, go ahead, Sorry, Oh that's all right. I was just wondering whatever possessed you to call him Grant Cameroon. Ah, I'm glad you asked. Now. I'm just joking around because Martin, of course you had him on your show recently and you commented about how he calls me a la gendre. That's right, I've had you know, I've been doing the show now for years, or it used to be UFO Think Tank, but now it's
Open Mind GUFO Radio. And if you can go back even when I did my first show with him, which is probably two thousand, at least seven eight years ago, you can go listen, and he calls me a le jandre. And even at that point, I had already known him for many, many years and been in pretty close contact. I mean, sometimes we talk more than others, but he's always called me that, and I kind of laugh and I kind of tell him to say that that's kind of maybe
because he's Canadian and it's kind of French Canadian because it's ale Jandreau. Almost sounds like a little French kind of flair there. Yeah, so it's just very gracious of you. Yes, but I do know his name is Cameron and not camera roon. Yes, was just being silly, silly there. So there's not a whole lot to that one. I mean, Edgar Mitchell wanted to meet with John Podesta, No big surprise. We all think that would be cool. But here's what's cool. And the Washington and the Wall
Street Journal actually wrote about these. By the way, I should mention Shephard Johnson did the research to find those other files for us at open mind So thank you to Shepherd. But the Wall Street Journal did his story about some of the other ones that are actually much more interesting. And these are from
Tom de Law. So Tom DeLong is a rock star. You know, he was with Link two and you know, actually Jason and Maureen when they were with Open Minds interviewed Tom DeLong and we've got that at open Minds.
But he's super into UFOs. A lot of people a few months ago made a big deal because he was making a lot of claims about knowing all these people and all this, you know, deep throat contacts who know about UFOs, and he released in July of twenty fifteen a photo of him interviewing Podesta, which many of us, like myself, Lispiegel others who have been dying to interview John Podesta about UFOs were extremely jealous and thinking why Tom DeLong,
Why is he talking to Tom DeLong? But right we have yet to see this interview. Tom DeLong says it's going to be part of a documentary he's going to release, so we know he you to talk with Podesta. And in these wiki leaks are a couple emails from Tom DeLong. One of them is kind of an update about what's going on. It's a few months after the interview in October. Tom DeLong is saying, here's the update. I've
been talking with Spielberg's people and some others about what we're gonna do. I'm getting my books and stuff out, and then he says, I would like to meet with you and bring two very important people that essentially have some insight into UFOs. Doesn't look like Poedessa ever replied to this email. But the more interesting email is from January twenty fifth of this year, and the subject is General McCaslin and Tom DeLong writes he mentioned he's a skeptic. He's not.
I've been working with him for four months. I just got done giving him a four hour presentation on the entire project a few weeks ago. Trust me, the device has already been happening on how to do all of this. He just has to say that out loud. But he is very, very aware, as he was in charge of all that stuff. When Roswell crashed, they shipped it to the laboratory at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. General McCaslin was in charge of that exact laboratory up to a couple years ago.
He not only knows what I'm trying to achieve, he helped assemble my advisory team. He's a very important man. So this General mccaslyn is Major General William mccaslan, and he was the commander of the US Air Force's research laboratories at Right Patterson Air Force Base. In fact, there's the Air Force site doesn't say he was, It says he is. So maybe he was in charge of it up until recently and they haven't updated it. But yeah,
he is actually a very important person. Right Patterson, of course, is where Project Blue book was and all of the Air Force UFO investigations, and people do feel, you know, maybe they took the raswell craft there. So if this general McCaslin does have something more to say about UFOs that he has not told the public, that is actually very very interesting. So hopefully, you know, it could be that Tom did not want that name
to get out and the name of his contact to get out. I'm sure somebody's hopefully going to be asking McCaslin what he had to say, and maybe he'll have a comment, especially since the Wall Street Journal wrote about this. But that seems to be the most promising or most interesting of all the wiki leaks out there regarding UFOs. But from what I can gather, these are all of the UFO related WikiLeaks that came out recently, and that last one
pretty interesting, huh, I'll say, yeah, that's great. Well, that would be really something. It's funny it's someone like Tom DeLong, because of his fame, may actually get some traction and get somewhere. Yeah, I mean, according to him, you know, he's told a lot of stories. He hasn't produced much to back up his stories, but he says,
you know, when he got into this. It was some people who worked at Area fifty one that went to him because he's famous, and that's what really got him connected with some of his great contacts with some I guess, really good information. So yeah, you're right, it could be that he really does have some really great stuff. But so far, all he's released a book that's nonfiction that he says is based on some of the real stuff, but we don't know what's really or not so pretty. No,
it is fiction. It is fiction. Yeah, it is fiction. H right, right, Oh did I say nonfiction? Yeah, it's fiction based on on fiction, according to him. So yeah, that I think is an interesting email. I like the last one. Yeah awesome. You probably like the Nibaru one, right, Yeah, that one really cracked me up. Alrighty, So you got anything else, but I think I'm just about
done. All right, Well, thank you for taking the time out because I know you're really busy today with your antiquing, but thanks for taking the time to talk to some UFO news with us, buddy. Yeah, always a pleasure. Okay, Well, let's go ahead and talk to retired Colonel doctor John Alexander. I am very happy to have back on the show. John Alexander. Hello, sir, I'll great to talk to you again.
Yeah, it's always fun and interesting to talk to you. Of course, there's always a little bit of controversy, even you know, you'll be speaking at the UFO Congress coming up, because you're known, as you know, by some although practically everybody who's been in the military, people believe that there there's part of some kind of disinformation scandal. Well we're getting a greater dose of that with the current election cycle as well. Yeah, you know,
truth no longer matters. Yeah, Unfortunately, conspiracy theories kind of reign supreme, especially the most dubious of them. But you know, although it kind of it seems like a bit of one of the reasons people feel that way is because you don't feel there's is there's so much a conspiracy of of you know, hidden secrecy as much of a conspiracy of kind of ineptitude or just
inability to deal with UFOs and things like that. But it seems like you kind of relish it a bit, you kind of like setting the record straight to people. Great, you know, as you know, first line in my book is UFOs are real, right, And what I'm going to be talking about the upcoming conference is just the complexity that we have brought into and trying to investigate these phenomena. And when you say you, oh, I'm super excited about your talk because you're also going to be talking about one of
your recent experiences. And is this your first UFO sighting or just kind of most spectacular. I'm not sure either, but it is the most recent. I wrote in the book I had one, but very very minor as most UFO sightings go. The significance of this is the proximity to the individual who was there telling me, let's yeah, I think something might happen, and there we are. So yeah, this had to be your talk, got
to be really exciting. I'm very excited about it. But today I want to talk about the Skinwalker Ranch because you got to be participate in the research of this mysterious ranch, because you're of your friendship with Bob Bigelow and participation in his National Institute for Discovery Sciences. I guess to start off with this, when did you first meet Bob Bigelow? Oh, that's that goes back
into antiquity. There was a conference some may remember, and the m I t that John mac and the guy from m I t you were holding he
showed up there that was more like a handshake. And then it was a few years later, I'm trying to think it, probably eighty nine and missed in the eighty eight time frame, and I was hosting a small meeting at my house, talk of people, some would be familiar to the community, others not, but interested in in front of energy and the zero point energy in particular, and Bob out of the blue just called me and said, what are you doing. I've heard about you, and so then he flew
over and we had a conversation. And about that time I left Los Alamos National Lab and then went over to work for NIDS. When it gets to the skin Walker, I was actually the first person from NDS to spend the night there, and I was there the day that he actually bought the ranch. So when did you first hear about the ranch then? And what did
you hear? Well, just some very generic rumors that there was a place in Utah where very strange kind of things happened, and that the rancher like Kerry is pretty well known now, but basically wanted to get out it was harassing his family so badly and they were taking a lot of heat from the local community. They were not Mormon and that area really you know, yeah, they do discriminate, but they say a family was having a lot of
trouble. Well, they had had a recent incident. Most of these, by the way, they are written up, and I'd some in my book and UFOs. But Skinwalker Ranch by George Knapp and call him Keller her. But this is one in which he had some young boys out there and dogs, as most ranchers do, and these dogs kept jumping up and snapping at these blue balls that were, you know, floating in the air around there.
What happened was I did it, and the balls kept floating away, and the dogs follow them, snapping and at and totally disappeared, the three dogs, and then it never came home. And then the following day Terry went out looking because it was very unusual that the dogs wouldn't return to get fed if nothing else, and he found three puddles of look like fat on the ground, and he believed that that was the remnants of the dog.
And they were very concerned that his kids might you know, encounter the same thing trying to tease or follow balls and took them to be potentially quite dangerous. Now, were was anything left when you got to the site then? Were you able to see these these any you know, not from that particular incident, but there are so many incidents and as you know, a number
that happened when our investigators were there. I would say, uh, be honest, I was up at the ranch a number of times after that, and frankly personally had not seen any particular incident, but there were people and someonell know, Eric, who seemed to be ultra sensitive and a lot of
things happened around him. So not only do you have a geographic area that has you know, a huge number of incidents that are just totally unexplainable, but there does seem to be a certain personality dependence as well influence on the area what happens when. So you probably were since you were the first there.
I'm assuming you got to interview the family. Oh yeah, we knew them quite well, and as you know, NIDS had a science advisory board that was highly respectable and they came in and you know, we're very gracious and very open about the events that were going on there and totally did not you know, no understanding of how these things could happen. It did indicate
that it did not originate with them. The strange things have been going on there, and Bob had talked to the Native American tribes in the area and this was sort of known as a place that they did not want to go to, that bad things could happen there. So did you advise then, did you recommend that Bob Bigelow purchased the land and do for their studies? Well, no, that was his decision. That's where he makes decisions anyway.
But I thought that maybe we could, you know, since incidents happened at such a continuous rate, that offered the possibility of being you know, basically a field laboratory. Now the uh you know, NIBS was designed to look at two specific errors UFOs A long continuation of consciousness beyond bodily death was the other. So this fit in quite well and with the charter and the things that Bob was interested in at that time, and so we you know,
picked it up. You had a willnkin noledge. One of the things I want to emphasize though, this was, in fact, I think continues to be a working ranch. But it also has to do with this raising cattle. So a lot of people like to say, oh, you know, wasted. I think the was around a quarter of a million dollars on it. Now you're you're picking up a working ranch that continues to have value. So did you find the family convincing yourself? Oh, they were very
open and very convincing. And of course the thing beyond that was the number of incidents that happened with our observers and others on site. So we're not strictly relying on, you know, personal stories by an individual, many many stories and large number of witnesses, physical evidence that pretty pretty hard to deny and pretty hard to explain under any set of circumstances. When Bob purchased a ranch, I would imagine, and you can let me know whether I'm right
or not, there might have been Was there any hesitation? Was there kind of like, wow, he bought this. What if we're going to put all these resources into it? What if nothing happened at the beginning? Were people a little nervous that way? Oh? Not that I'm aware of things now. Having said that, on one of the things about the ranch, and I think why they really gave up the you know, continuous observation was
that there was a bit cyclical, if you will. In other words, there would be periods of intense activity and then other periods where virtually nothing would happen. So and the other thing, you know, one of the remember in my book, I wrote about what I call precognitive sentient phenomena, and
it actually came from our observation at the ranch. And I guess colloquially a lot of folklore revolves around trickster in other words, that there's phenomena that happened, but there's something behind it that seems to have you know, a tricking kind of attributes to it. And this shows up throughout literature, you know, for centuries. But the reason I was looking at it is, as
you know, we instrumented. The ranch had various kinds of sensors. We had video and doing you know, monitoring twenty four to seven, reviewing everything that happens, and the phenomena had it seemed like the ability to function just outside of wherever the sensors were, meaning that is the way again precognitive.
It seemed to know whatever it was and it was in charge, if you will, but it knew what we were going to do when we were presented with various phenomena, and every time we said we would adjust to it and say, okay, let's study that. And every time he did, it would shift slightly like it was saying, oh you like that, try this, you know, and you get something totally unexpected, often for instance,
like just off camera or something of that nature. Can you remember an incident that was kind of an example of this, Well, there was a classic one written in the book. In one in which we had four poles, as I said, we had set up surveillance, and what happened you had video cameras on top of twenty foot poles, all looking to the west, and in this case, the poles further to the east could see the poles
to the west. And what happened was that, okay, so in order to install the cameras, you had wires that were you know, coming from the camera down to the ground. You had probably half a roll of duct shape on each of the poles, just holding the wires in. As you got close to the ground, you had PBC piping and U clamps that held the wires down and then they went underground because they're working ranch. You still
had cattle running around there. And this ran back to a house, the housing where we stayed, and so you had time laps on the second, the third between each frame, but again running twenty four to seven. And this phenomenal incident that happens. We know that all of a sudden, camera i'll just call it camera one, the one further to the west stops recording and the camera to the east behind it does not record anything. Now, not only did the camera stop recording, the wires at the top of the
twenty foot pole were pulled loose. There was a chunk about three foot of wire in between that were missing. And then the PBC that held the U clamps that held the PBC pipe had been pulled loose. And so we went in and looked at the camera that was staring at the camera where the incident had taken place, and coincidentally, the cattle had been milling around the pole at that time. Importantly, absolutely nothing showed up. And what we knew
the reason the cattle location was important. We knew that anybody approached the cattle or anything came in there, they would always scatter. In this case, they hadn't. And we know from the time that the wires were pulled loose, when the recording stops and we knew where to look, Absolutely nothing of any of the things that we described show up on the camera that was facing it and should have recorded the entire incident. So, I mean, what
are your thoughts on that? So, I mean, you did have video footage of the pool, you just couldn't see the wires although nothing happened, that's the point. I mean, we should have been able to see if somebody climbed up the pole and we had again twenty feet or so and pull jerked it loose. You should have seen whatever went up there. You should have seen whatever cut this uh you know, yard long chunk of wire out of the middle. You should have seen something pull the U clamps on the
PBC lose. Again, not only did we not see that, we also did not see the cattle move. And they certainly if if anybody had done it, you know, or any normal thing had done that, they would have scattered it didn't. Yeah, so pretty strange stuff. Now, what do you remember, you know, when did once the investigation began nid's investigation, did strange stories then start coming very quickly? Did they begin experiential. I mean, we had had strange stories. Again to pick up the ramps,
they go back in our incidents exactly. So the investigators did they begin experiencing things. Well, one of the things I want to emphasize, you know, I had a go around with the Jesse Ventura and in his conspiracy shory show that he did about Skinwalker Ranch, and he asked me could I get him on the ranch? And I said no. And the other thing
was, by the way, you'd be quite bored. My point here is that yes, a lot of very phenomenal incidents happened, but when you amortize that over six years, it is not like, oh, something happens every night. I understand that the people if they are still being harassed with the folks trying to sneak in and whatnot, So it wasn't happening on a continuous basis. The ones that did happen were very very dramatic and you know,
literally unexplainable. But it's not like you said, out there and every hour some unusual thing or UFO pops in, or lights appear or various kind of apparitions or what I call creepy collars. So all of those things happened, but again you spread that over the six years that the observations that are observations alone. Some of the incidents had happened to Terry and his family before, and some of the stories even predate Terry. So the anomalous lights, for
instance, did that occur? Were any of those being able to be recorded or seen by the NIDS investigators? There were various things that were seen the I don't recall blue bulbs. I think we saw luminous lights on occasion,
uh, some of it. Uh. Eric recorded and reported an incident out in the trees which were there was you know, Russian Allo's further to the west and a building out there, and he talked about something moving through the trees akin to what she saw in the Predator movie, you know, where what you really see is a distortion, not you know, firm details of a specific object. Mm hmm. And and Eric, that's doctor Eric Davis, Is that correct if he chooses to be no, not. He's pretty
well known man. Yeah. I think he's even done a few, not many, but a few interviews regarding well he is. You know, he's a legitimate astrophysicist, works for help put off now and does a lot of work in anomalies, but a very credible guy. I would emphasize. One of the things that was different about NIDS is that most of the observers that we had up there all had at least one doctorate. In one case, guy had was a double doctorate at that UH trained, highly trained researchers and
you know, interested in the phenomena. Some of them fundamentally skeptical because you run up against trying to explain how any of these things could occur, and it just devised explanation, well, what's interesting. And I saw this on a mainstream show, but he also talked about this, I believe it a move On symposium a few years ago, and we've talked to him about it.
I don't know that we have anything published on it, but Eric doctor Davis, who you're referring to, has talked about, you know, witnessing one of the most bizarre incidents at that happened during the study. And I was wondering if you could recall but biz is bizarre is relative in this case, is right? Orders of magnitude of bizarre. I mean the one I described about the camera, I think it was one of the strangers where the
damn thing was actually instrumented and yet recorded nothing. And I think it was
Davis and talking about sort of a portal or something they had seen. Well, we're a bit into conjecture at that point, but yeah, a lot of us did sort of think that, and that part of the folklore is that there are and I'm not sure if you're talking about the one where something came up out of a hole or there were other instances where holes were reported, like in the sky with things dropping down like UFOs and sounds coming out of the sky. That so portal, you know you will, in the
New Age vernacular is pretty pretty generic. Yeah, I believe this was a story where something came out of the ground some sort of okay, yeah, like the with that one, again, there were two observers just to lay it out. The ranch itself is mostly very flat open, but to the north there's an escarpment that rises a couple of hundred feet, and so one
of the things we would do is post people. In fact, what I mentioned the first night that I stayed there, that's what I did was to climb up on this escarpment where you could look down and see most of the ranch. In this case, there was a dirt road that was running from east to west at the bottom of the escarpment. And one of the things that happened that I believe it was on two or three in the morning, and we're getting ready to close up shop and look down and I saw this
faint glow of light peered like slightly above the ground. The guess is I think it was around three feet or so actually above the ground, and then the light sort of expanded to a wider circumference, and then all of a sudden, something with a head and shoulders popped up out of that, pulled itself out, jumped down as if on the ground, and went running off. This was observed from a few hundred feet away. Again, they're up
above looking down at the incident happened. This dirt road that I mentioned was very dusty, and one of the interesting things went down to where they saw it happen, and there were no footprints. Very very strange. And I'm sure you felt, I would assume you felt that these reports were credible. Yeah, these are our guys. We're not talking about civilian reports coming in
and whatnot. These were people who work with us that happened to have been one civilian researcher who came in from outside NIDS, but somebody we implicitly trusted, and they were using some pretty good night vision equipment at the time. But again it depends on which events, but several of them had the one I talked about with something moving through the branches of the olive tree and Eric perceived a message. And this is more like a telepathic inference that said we
are watching you. No influence as to who we are or what that meant or what happens. Do they do actions other than watching or what that might mean. I would say we, the best of my knowledge, never had an accident in which humans were directly threatened or injured. Now, animals did get injured, and there's a specific case of cattle mutilation that again defies explanation, and if you want, we can discuss that one. Yeah, great, go ahead and describe that event. Yeah. Well, this one is
truly amazing because it's calving season. This does start with Terry and they said it's a working ranch. So it's a bright sunny day. Again, the landscape in this area is totally open, so you can see for quite a way, so he goes in his truck and he finds a mother and a newborn calf. And so the procedure is to weigh the calf, take data, and then you put a tag in the calf's ear and with the mother,
so it's identified. You know what that relationship is. So he does that, and he drives a few hundred meters but again straight line, totally visible, finds another newborn calf, and he tags that and weighs that in some times, maybe between a half hour forty five minutes. And he comes back and the first cow is just beside herself, and cap one is dead. And not only is it dead, the ear with a tag has been sliced off. Looks like something extremely sharp had done that. It had been
elucerated and exanguinated. And it was about that now the remains were about twenty pounds less than what it had weighed twenty minutes ago. We sent We had Georgia Neett, who was a DPM among things, up to the ranch that day. We had protected the carcass to make sure nothing happened to it. Again, there were a lot of slicing and one bone was moved out looked like some nicks from a sharp knife on it. But a one of the things I had them do. People said, oh, simple, it was
out and just you know, blood went into the ground. So I suggested, and they went to a nearby slaughterhouse and got a few courts of blood and came back in the area and we just poured it on the ground to see what would happen. And weeks later you could go by and say, oh, that's where the blood was poured on the ground, at the point
of the exanguinated calp no marks whatsoever. And we looked at, you know, every possibility of predation, you know, not the way big beer, big bears kill, not the way big cats, and there are a few in the area, but there were no known predators that could have carried this out. One of the hypotheses was that it might be human, and you know, they probably still shoot cattle wrestlers. But the point is that,
again, this is broad daylight, mid morning, totally open visibility. Nobody on their right mind is you know, going to sneak across an open field and cut up somebody's cap like that. Mm hmm. And I mean being ex sanguinated, like you said, the blood being taken, I mean it would have had to be collected and then removed right, which would have been
difficult. The point it was, it wasn't just drained where it went into the ground, And that's why I had the experiment run pouring blood on the ground to see what it did look like and have pretty good comparative analysis of that. Mm hmm. So how did this, I mean, what was your reaction to all of this? Did this change your worldview? Did it
have I would imagine that this had to be pretty shocking for people. Well, that changed my not my worldview, No, But then I have a pretty broad worldview, and I've been involved in phenomena for decades and have seen some really really strange things in other locations. Certainly this was one of the more highly concentrated areas and ones in which you had this variety of phenomena that were occurring and defying you know, scientific information and attempts to do research.
Hence, that's why I said it was a precognitive sentient phenomena. It knew what we were going to do. It seemed to know how we would respond and what kinds of research we would attempt to do, and yet present things that were ineffable. And I mean this is a group of scientists, for the most part, very intelligent people that were outsmarted essentially by some unknown phenomena. Yeah, it's in charge. Whatever it is, it's in charge. Yeah, I mean that that may be well, was more scary aspects.
Yeah, I would imagine like doctor Davis, for instance, wrote a paper on teleportation for the Air Force. I think a lot of people assume his experiences with the ranch kind of influenced his his thinking, or at least opened his mind about you know, some some possibilities and uh, you know what
physics is capable of. Did any of those scientists expressed, you know, a any emotional reaction or you know, just I would imagine, especially for someone who who isn't as familiar with paranormal as yourself, even myself, if I had experienced that, I mean, it would really leave a mark. Yeah, well, surely let the mark. I mean, there's no doubt
about that. As you know, I've been seeing the stuff in voodoo in Africa and things that just cannot be explained as well a lot in South America and dealing with shamans and the Amazon, and various incidents in Brazil so I would I got in mind that again, we had the Science Advisory Board that was world class by any standard. Now, of course we selected people who
were open to the possibility of phenomena. Some of them were probably not as experienced with others like Jacques Bully, who is sort of fit in with a sport to magonia but changing now it just fit in. It's a bunch of pieces to a much much larger puzzle. So everybody was pretty professional about it. Nobody kind of very much. Nobody well no, but again this was a highly select body was being exposed to a number of phenomenon in other cases
that ND was looking into as well. I mean, if they had not been open minded about the phenomena, it would not have been invited to the board. So that kind of goes without saying. Now, I think if you went to the National Academy of Science and presented this, they tell you you were crazy. First of all, you wouldn't even get them to look, which is I think part of the problem is that and you have phenomena that seemed to lie outside normally accepted bounds, it's just a priori dismissed.
But also, you know a lot of my bes looking at this on a global basis. Yeah, that's true in the West, but there are other societies than those that are very Western oriented, highly well educated, who are much more accepting of these various phenomena. So in all, do you feel as a group, the Scientific Board and Bob Bigelow and yourself, I mean, because it was one step ahead, was the experiment of failure in not being able to record phenomena or how do you feel people felt about that?
Well, I wouldn't. I could never say it was a failure, and that was because we did have so many observations. H it also means no, we did not come up with the answer. And I you know, as you know, the last paragraph of my UFO book, which I think is directly related, says that, uh, yeah, I don't think we're at the point of asking the right questions. I think that what we have is so terribly complex that it is beyond our imagination, and that when we
attempt to, you know, do research projects, it's almost lappable. The other problem is it is very difficult to get the best in brightest minds. I'm you know, you know, very familiar with the UFO community. I think many of them are very well meaning, but unfortunately often not qualified to, you know, get into these scientific areas. That said, if the PSP is right, it wouldn't matter anyway. Well, and even though some
individuals are capable and intelligent, any serious study requires organization and resources. And that's something that unfortunately doesn't seem to happen, especially when people are self guided and have just different ideas about how to go about the research. Well, it's that quite frankly. Funding is potentially another issue. I use a large Hadron collider as an example. Globally we've put over eighteen billion dollars into that
looking for the god particle. I found the Higgs boson and then went from there and say, whoops, that wasn't it. And then we found peti quarks. But we have the mechanical model of the universe. It says if we cut things into smaller and smaller parts, we will eventually, you know, find the essential building block. It does not appear to take into account the role of consciousness or a multiverse. You know, we have multi dimensional
universes that are interacting from time to time. Yeah, limited by what is known. Often, it seems, well, the problem from a scientific projective is in my view, the problem is that we start with the assumption that, you know, it's a materialistic universe, and we do not in general accept even the possibility of spiritual interaction. And I think that's from mental mistake.
By a spiritual interaction, do you mean kind of like an unknown force, but a force that is ever present I suppose at least in the human body or well, there are several aspects to that. As you know, my doctor Villa worked in penatology and looking at near death experiences and again the continuation of consciousness beyond bodily death, and I think the evidence in favor is
extremely strong. But again, when I've traveled the world, you've come to societies that talk about interactual with spiritual beings that guide entire life and interact with them sometimes on a very physical plane. Again, you know, Western world, we tend to disregard that without accepting the possibility you do run into and I don't want to get into religious arguments about you know, what does that mean? Is there a soul? And how does that fit into the process.
But I think there are pieces to that puzzle that are associated and along the lines of what you referred to earlier with the ranch a sort of non physical intelligence or consciousness. Yeah, and the reason I used precognitive sentient is that, like I said, it was so smart that it knew what we
were going to do, and polarly intelligent and clearly in control. Well, and some theoretical physicists do theorize on possible forces were not aware of, or even particles were not aware of that could make up and explain some of this and allow for non physical consciousness. And well, there are folks who are working particularly on quantum mechanics and trying to explain what that is. Much of
their frustration because they never quite get it. But again the base if you start with a premise that everything is material and you know, can be cut up into the smaller and smaller parts, that really limits your options when you get to explaining the verritical observations that take place and in daily life. I mean, you know, near death experiences for instance, in the US, there are millions of people who have had these experience and it's only you know,
kind of one example you have others. We used to teach psychokinesis no physical way to explain the energy necessary to cause that to occur, you know, from ghosts who you know, you know, pick your phenomena. There's some pretty hard evidence for all of those things. Speaking of, you know, measurements and things like that, were I mean, was there any success or or regularity to maybe such as the use of Geiger counters or E M F or or were you able to measure anything like that that you felt was
related to the phenomena. Oh yeah, the one of the applications we had with various A m F meters and things of that nature went out there. Yeah, you would find prey unusual fluctuation. I don't recall any radiological variation. That does appear in other phenomena as well. Classically the Bentwater case is a good example of that. But you, again, whatever it is seems to defy our ability to quantify it, and you did mention it. So I've got to ask, even though I don't have time to really get into
it, but you did mention psychokinesis and training it. So are you saying that you've witnessed, you know, the ability of people to move objects with their Absolutely, that's probably a whole nother story. But yeah, I used to actually teach Jack howk had come up with the meaning. It got to be known as spoon bending parties, or we call PKMBO metal bending. And I was based on the work of Ury Geller, but we then had something
that was teachable. And again the problem here was did it happen one hundred percent of the time. No, but there were examples where we had very very dramatic experiences that happened, you know, in front of me and many many others and highly highly credible witnesses. And if you use the mechanistic model of world, one of the things you have to say is, Okay,
if if this metal bend, where did the energy come from? And I'm talking here about the kinds of things metal bending where there's no physical force applied, and you really cannot come up with a an explanation you able to do it? Ah? No, well I've done some things happen, But as I said, I was able to teach the process and observe others that had some pretty spectacular events occur. Wow, that's amazing. But I guess getting
back to the ranch, some final questions. Do you feel that I know Bob Bigelow has sold the ranch, so it might not have I have no idea how expensive of an effort this investigation into the ranch was. But do you believe he felt it was money well spent in the end. Oh, I'm sorry, you'd have to ask him. I have no idea. I was not even aware they actually sold the ranch, so i'd heard. Yeah, there were other folks in there. Probably the biggest expenditure, however,
would have been on salary for those of the working there. So I mean again, it was a working ranch and maintained part. You know, it's uh uh property value. So m hm. So and the family that he bought the ranch from, I understand stayed to work the ranch for a period of time, correct, a short period of time, yes, before leaving, and then I guess after that they were terribly harassed by the community.
Things did not go well. Wife lost her job, and the bank directly related to that, the kids were getting harassed in school as the stories became known. So, yeah, public is it is not kind? Yeah, And I guess that's one side. You have people who say, wow, isn't that interesting, But the reality is that man level to bite you. Yeah. Yeah, these stories lately, there's a couple of stories that came up this week and that's why I thought it would be good to talk about
this. Well, in the last few weeks, George Knapp, of course, who wrote the book Skinwalker or The Hunt for Skinwalker, has kind of put those on his Facebook, and that's how I became aware of them. It's by the week I saw that on his posts as well. Yeah, and one of those is about no I was going to say, I would really emphasize for folks that are interested to get those Georgia's call right and to not go to the ranch. And that was the whole point. It seems
like that prompted these stories. Is that. In fact, the title of the first one that came out on September twenty fourth of the two recent stories written by the UB media is Skinwalker Ranch activity shifts from paranormal to prosecutable because these guys are no longer experiencing or haven't experienced that, at least that they've
shared with the public, any paranormal experiences. The new owners, I mean, however, they're getting harassed by humans who keep trying to come on to the ranch or just walk around the ranch, and it's it's really been a difficult ordeal for them. It was unfortunately from the start. That's for the reason the general location was not well known, while while we were there,
some people figured it out. But yeah, it's unfortunately that these quote researchers are, you know, just really screwing it up, and this is private property belong to somebody else. They have every right to maintain their privacy.
Yeah. So uh. In the end, I don't know if you have any comments about I find it unfortunate how much of this field treats Bob Bigelow, because I really feel that his efforts were not in veina and not unsuccessful in that I've been able to interview George and Colm Kellahar and Eric Davis and others who are very, very credible people who did some great work and made a genuine effort to investigate this phenomena and all walked away, like you've expressed,
saying, wow, whatever this is was a real intelligence that just outsmarted us, and that alone is very valuable I think for all of us looking into this topic. I mean, we wouldn't know about this phenomena at this ranch if it wasn't for Bigelow's efforts. But unfortunately, it seems his legacy is and is not often treated well by the UFO community. Well, sir,
what's happened? You remember the my slides that I use and most of my briefings, and it says you've got to have three things if you're going to play, And you'd better have a thick skin because you're going to be attacked. You most understand conspiracy theory because you're going to be part of it, whether you believe the conspiracy or not. And finally, for most people, you better have a day job because you're not going to make a lot of money. Y out of amen to all three of those points, and
amen to your entire book. I think it's one of the most important books in this field. It's definitely out of the top ten. I think, you know people need to understand just because you outline things like this, you know that are important observations of the field overall, and something you do need to understand when you're diving in because, like you said, you will get attacked. Yeah, the UFO community is not time there. They tend to
be a bit cannibalistic. Yeah, you don't have to worry about tax from aliens or Bigfoot or any other paranormal phenomena. The attacks by the humans are the ones you want to look out for, right all right, Well, thank you so much for coming on the show again. Your website is al JOHNB. Alexander dot com where people can read more. They can see your book and how to get there, and also follow all of your adventures around
the world. I was just thinking today, you're a person who they ought to make a reality television show about because you're all over the world doing exciting things. Lately swimming with the sharks. Yeah, we're just back from diving with the grade white sharks. Yeah, quite amazing, pretty exciting stuff. So thank you very much. Okay, thank you, I'll go. Thank
you so much to John Alexander for being on the show. Remember you can find his book along with all of his information at John B. Alexander dot com and all of his adventures. He's all over the world. He's doing cool stuff. He's swimming with the sharks, he's talking to gurus and doing all kinds of crazy stuff. And he'll be talking about a lot of this crazy stuff at the twenty seventeen UFO Congress, so definitely come and check it
out. So I personally love hearing from John, So thank you so much for being on the show, and the Skinwalker ranch is just such a fascinating topic, really incredible stuff, and it's really good. There's a lot of conjecture out there about Bob big Low his intentions and such, and I think it's best to get it from the horse's mouth, I mean, when it comes to move on. Sorry, folks, I was there, I was
part, I was part of the board. I was one of the directors, not part of the board necessarily, but in the board meetings because I was a director with mofon when they created that relationship. And I've spoken with many of the people with NIDS and you know, it's a genuine effort to investigate strange phenomena and I think that's fascinating and really cool. But it's great to hear from the people who have this inside information, and one of those
is George Knapp. So remember if you want, if you don't know much about this ranch and you're thinking, what the heck this sounds crazy, go check out the book Hunt for the Skinwalker by George Knapp and Comb. Kellahart Comb is another guy I've spoken with, great guy. He still works for Bob Bigelow, So go check out that book. You can find it, I believe definitely find it on Amazon, but I think you can find it in many of the bookstores even to this day. So really really really good
stuff. And of course come to the conference to listen to John speak. I don't know if I've told you all to you. I've posted practically all the speakers, so we have almost all the speakers listed. The last one is Erling Strand, who is a professor at the Oslo College and University.
I think it's called in Denmark oust Guard or something like that. It's got I can't I don't remember the name right now, but anyways, it's this university that is doing actual investigation of the Hesdelin lights, which is one of the longest ongoing kind of UFO investigations and one of the few, if not the only, by actual university. But erling Strand will be coming from Norway to come and speak about the Hesdelen lights, give you details, show you
videos. I mean there are videos of these UFOs that have been captured by these you know, scientists and other investigators. So he will also be speaking at the UFO Congress. So we've got a great lineup, and of course I'll be telling you more about these speakers as time goes on. As you heard me talk about with Mark earlier, I mean with Martin earlier. We
do have another UFO Magazine video coming out. This will be more about UFO reporting by the government, So more about official UFO reporting you probably don't know about, just evidence documenting that the government certainly has been interested in UFOs since nineteen sixty nine, despite what they've been telling the public, and it's right there in their own files. So how have they been reporting and investigating those We'll get into that in the next video, so keep an eye out there.
We did also have Michael Klinis putting together these videos from our archives of strange UFO photographs, so you can check that out. Michael has some new ones, so go check our YouTube for all of this crazy and why all of this crazy and wild stuff, really really good stuff out there. Also, if you want to read more about anything that Martin and I talked about
in the UFO News earlier, you can go to Openminds dot tv. In fact, those stories we talked about, including all of the links to all of those wikileak emails from Podesta that we talked about, really interesting developments you can go find and also links to like the Wall Street Journal story and other stories about all of this. So really, I gotta say you'll probably get the most information about Podesta and those links, those WikiLeaks at our site than
any other site out there Openminds dot tv. That's right, folks. So remember also some of the past lectures from the International UFO Congress you can find on our website. You can subscribe to our video portal for a very low monthly fee and get access to tons and tons of lectures and videos. And that's also where you can find out information about the UFO Congress. You can register. You can also go to Ufocongress dot com. So we've got lots
and lots of really cool stuff going on. We're just keeping busy making sure to continue to have a steady stream of information coming to you all, who we love so much. Thank you very much to Caleb Hanks for the open end close music. And finally, I want to thank you once again for listening to the show. I hope you have a wonderful week. We will talk to you soon. Audio's mood Dattos your emotionless sound glass