Dr. Eric Davis: Investigating and Experiencing the Paranormal

Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. My name is Alejandro Rojas and I am here with Martin Spectacular. Willis. Oh that's a spectacular thing to say. And at first I thought you were having some type of attitude, but then I realized it was it was almost like Glee. Yeah, it's more gleeish than attitude issue. It's more of fun silliness, which is

kind of kind of my thing. No one really uses the word Glee anymore, so yeah, I know, after the TV show went away, everybody kind of shied away from that, and yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, but let's get into it. So this is Open Mind GFO Radio, where we cover credible UFO news and information. We take a journalistic view to bring you substantiated information, not just speculation. We do speculate here and there, but you know, unfortunately most of this field is mostly speculation.

So I like to bring to you the hard hitting news what's going on. So the first part of the show is the news. We'll cover the news stories of the week. However, especially with the great guests that we have and the interest in the guests that we have today, you may want to skip the first twenty five minutes and go straight to the interview. That is just fine, especially if you know you're listening to this ten years from now and you want to just get to the interview. That is just fine.

So you can do that because and I do say that because some people are like, man, they just talked about the news beginning of when me hear from the guests, Well, that's fine, skip ahead, but I do want to take a minute. And my guest is so important this week, and some of you may not know who he is, but I'm going to read his bios, so please, sorry, Martin, this is going to take just a minute, but you'll understand because he's so important. His name

is doctor Eric Davis. Why is he so important? Well, there's probably two scientists in particular, I would say, who are really important right now, and that is doctor Davis and his boss at EarthTech, doctor hal put

Off. That's because they both work for this Pentagon program. So we got these dirds, these reports essentially that the Pentagon asked these these scientists to write about these you know, projects with that were actually even though they're technology based, these guys have written these things kind of based on the paranormal and we'll

get into that in this interview, but let me read this bio. Eric Davis is the Chief Science Officer of EarthTech International and the Institute for Advanced Studies

at Austin. Doctor davis research specializations include breakthrough propulsion physics for interstellar flight, interstellar flight science, beamed energy propulsion, advanced space, nuclear power and propulsion, directed energy weapons, future and transformformational technology, general relativitytivity theory, quantum field theory, quantum gravity theories, experimental quantum optics, and SETI search for

extraterrestrial intelligence. Zeno archaeology. We actually had someone on to talk about zeno archaeology before, but doctor Davis's research activities include megawatt class laser propulsion, fit systems, designing and performance metrics and mission applications for the US Air Force Laser light Craft program. Quantum optics, tomography, experiments to measure negative vacuum energy,

studies on the multi layer quantum vacuum structure and its applications. General relativistic time machines and causality, superluminal photons in curved space, time, gravis stars and black holes, and quantum intanglement. Teleportation and non locality studies intraversible wormhole and warp drive space times for faster than light propulsion, and visibilitability studies on laser inertial confinement, inertial electrostatic confinement z pinch, and dense plasma focused fusion

concepts for space propulsion. Much like the stuff that you study, right, Martin, Yeah, you know you've lost me way ahead of what was it, introvincible wormhole. I think you're way off there, but I would be too. I think you lost me back at vacuum or something. He currently serves as an adjunct professor in the Early Universe Cosmology and Strings Group at the Center for Astrophysics, Space Physics, and Engineering Research at Baylor University in Waco,

Texas. He earned his PhD in astrophysics from the University of Arizona in ninety one, the year I graduated from high school. Doctor Davis is a Fellow of the British Interplanetary Society, Associate Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, and a member of the New York Academy of Sciences, Directed Energy Professional Society, the American astronom Astronomical Society, and the Association of Former Intelligence Officers. Wow. So a lot of stuff. And the reason I

bring all this up is because you can hear this is mainstream science. These are credible organizations he's associated with. But what we're going to be talking about is wild and crazy stuff. So to hear you know, this, this wild stuff we're talking to him about with UFOs and paranormal and and you know, voices coming out of nowhere related to the Skinwalker Ranch paranormal stuff. You know, That's why I wanted to bring up the background. So in an

interview I did, in fact Martin with John Alexander. Alexander had talked about how Eric Davis was a somehow a magnet for all the paranormal stuff going on at Skinwalker Ranch, and so we talk about that in this interview. Wow. Yeah, I can see the background like that Holy mackerel. That is something else. And I saw that he had an interest in UFO's way back as an old article. I just read why he was talking about why the

science community won't take you know, UFO seriously back in twenty thirteen. But he's so he does light travel of science and research, right, and I mean space time, time warping time travel, all of this sort of stuff. So yeah, so when they're talking about with to the Stars, you know who works with Earth Tech and doctor Davis in developing these technologies, and we do discuss this, you know that they're they're essentially getting some clues about

how the technology works from just observations of UFOs. You know, this is something they're really doing, that they really think they can do, and they've

got these people the right people to do it right amazing yep. And you know, we'll talk to doctor Eric Davis about this idea because there's this idea and I'm sure you've heard it out there and I'd love to hear your point of view that all of this, you know, to the Stars and this Pentagon project, all of this coming out is part of a disclosure effort where the government or some kind of secret keepers are trying to slowly release information.

But Aleizando and the others we've talked to say that's not the case at all. And you know, if you follow the history of how this has all happened, you know Tom DeLong does not work for the government. He did this all on his own. He was able to then entice you know, Alexander to join his program, but Alexander retired. He wasn't planning on getting

this information out, so he decided this on his own. Otherwise, guys like Eric Davis and Hall Putoff who have worked on all of this stuff with Big Low and the Pentagon, they've been doing this for literally decades, you heard, you know, for decades they've been working on UFOs and paranormal and trying to get the mainstream to pay attention. So this isn't something new. This isn't something where some secret hand came to them and said, oh,

we're going to get you to do this, this and this. No, this is something they've been fighting for for decades and finally they're getting more respect and you know, more attention than ever. And we'll get into that when we get into the news, but we'll talk to doctor Davis about his thoughts regarding all that as well. Wow, sounds like a fantastic guest. I don't know why he's been off my radar for my show. I mean, I definitely would love to have someone like that. Yeah, I don't know

what you're lad. I don't know either, all right, Yeah, well, let's get into the news. How about it. Well, yeah, we had a fantastic week for news, all starting from a political political report. Actually happen right after my show. You text me a link back on Tuesday. That's crazy. I know what both of our shows are on Tuesday, and this news came out. You know, I had uploaded my show, and I'm sure your show was already done, so our shows were wrapped

up and then boom and then this news comes out. This came out. Let's see, that came out at right six minutes after my show started. I'm looking at the time. Funny. Yeah, that sounds right, because I got done doing the news with you and then I found the story and then of course that was all the rest of my day. Yeah. And from this one story, I'll talk about it in a second, all kinds of things have spawned off, you know, articles, every I guess you

would call this going viral in a way. And of course, just the just the title alone, you can see why US Navy drafting new guidelines for reporting UFOs. That's the uh political headline. And you know some people right away were arguing, well, uh, they're talking about things unidentified aircraft. Uh, you know, not UFOs has nothing to do with it. I saw that argument right away, but it doesn't it doesn't really say anything that makes that explainable one way or the other. As far as I'm concerned,

and and many people are. You know, that's been the basis of a lot of uh, you know, conversations another you know, for instance, the Washington Post has written a great story story about why how angry pilots got the Navy to stop dismissing UFO sightings. I love that one, and so, you know, just pick one story. But let's talk about political first. I'm wondering, do you since you have done a lot of research on this since it came out, why why is it them that you know,

broke the story? And how did how did? How was it? Then? Do you know about that? You know what? I don't know for sure. However, the author Brian Bender has been interested in this topic for a while. So when the December twenty seventeenth story came out that broke the Pentagon UFO program a tips story, Brian Bender had a story out within the hour, so he must have been working on this. He kind of caught

onto this as well. However, you know, I wrote a blog called why the Navy taking UFO seriously matters, And in that blog I also linked to another story that Brian Bender had out where soon after the December news had come out, he held, because he's the you know, like space editor for Politico, which was kind of a new thing they were doing, they had a bit of a conference with some of the space people involved with space,

so they had people from the Committees for Armed Services or the Committees for Science and Space. They also had some of the National Space Council people available at this event, and he asked a couple of these people, a couple of actual House reps that were on the Space Committee. They said, well, and one of the people on the National Space Council, and he asked them, what do you think of this news lately with the UFOs. And actually one of them in the Space Committee said, you know what, I

found this really interesting. And I even went to the head of our committee and said, hey, shouldn't we have hearings on this? So they were all taking it all very seriously, which was I think really eye opening and important what he did there. So he's obviously had like his hand on the pulse of what's going on here. So somehow he got this information first, and he you know, it's a great story because he talks about a tip.

He talked to Chris Mellon, who's part of To the Stars. You know you've had him on the show, really important person related to all of this, and he brought in He brought the correlations because and in fact, let me read the full statement. I got a copy of the full statement from someone who sent it to me and he has it in a He's done pr for different government organizations and was able to get it. But this is from the Deputy Chief Chief of Naval Operations. The political story had pieces of

this statement in there, but not the whole thing. But here is their full statement. There have been a number of reports of unauthorized and or unidentified aircraft entering various military controlled ranges and designated airspace in recent years. For safety and security concerns. The Navy and the US Air Force take these reports very

seriously and investigate each and every report. As part of this effort, the Navy is updating and formalizing the process by which reports of any such suspected incursions can be made to the cognizant authorities. A new message to the Fleet that

will detail The steps for reporting is in draft. In response to requests for information from congressional members and staff, Navy officials have provided a series of briefings by senior Naval intelligence officials as well as aviators who reported hazard to aviation safety. So of course they say they take these things seriously. We know from the past that they've blown us off, lied to us. To be quite frank, I mean, unfortunately, we can't put it any other way,

especially when it comes to the Air Force. I know this, and that's the gist of my story is that you know, I've been writing about this and investigating and doing everything for decades now, and every time you go to the Air Force, they say, sorry, we don't have any interest, and they send you to that patent statement that says, oh, we closed our UFO interest back in nineteen sixty nine at the end of Project Blue Book

because of the Condon report. So now that they're you know, in this Navy statement, they saying, oh, we take this seriously, and we've been investigating these and we know a tip has but we don't know who else has. So this is news to us because that's, you know, counter to what you've been telling us in the past. So it is interesting, but I think it's obvious that you know, the gist of my story was, we know where this comes from. I mean, Elizondo comes out in

October with to the Star's announcement. Some of the people in the media, and Leslie Kayan and Ralph Blumenthal deserve a lot of credit. They saw this as important. They were able to talk to New York Times and doing the story that came out in December. The story became huge. A lot of the witnesses related to the Nima's case that was in the New York Times article

then started coming out and talking on all the major news stations. Then you know, and I have links to all these stories in my post here. Then we have politicians saying they want these guys to come talk to them in different committees, including like the Senate Armed Services Committee, and so they do. And so we have all of this going on in the background. And finally, those guys must have been able to really peak the interest of the

politicians and the others that they talked to, because this is happening. So Tom DeLong posted and he said, this is a direct result of to the Star's Academy and our efforts, and some people have said I don't see any evidence of that, but I think there's plenty. I mean, I've been talking to we've talked about this. People are like, why isn't two the Star is telling us what they're doing, because we're not their audience, you

know, these are not this isn't all totally a public facing things. Like lou has said, they're trying to grease the wheels behind the scenes and get the people who should be paying attention and should be releasing information and doing investigations, doing the work. And that's where they've spent a lot of their time which we wouldn't see. But here we're seeing the results of it. Wow. So interesting. I'm wondering now if other you know, armed services will

follow suit, you know, like that. Of course, the Navy has you know a lot of air power, but you know, the Air Force number one, you know, you'd wonder if they would follow suit on this. Yeah, those are great points, those are really great points, and we don't know's It's very interesting. I think that the Navy should bring up the US Air Force maybe because people might be thinking, well, why is the Navy saying this, shouldn't it be the Air Force. It's talking about

this, So maybe for that reason. I wouldn't imagine though, that the Navy would bring up the Air Force in this statement without first conversing at some level with the Air Force about what they're doing. So it would make sense, I think that we would hear something from the Air Force soon. Now we haven't seen what these these guidelines are going to be. Some people say, oh, they're just going to lock everything down even worse, and that's

possible. These guidelines may say you report your your siding up to command and then you're not to speak about, you know, your sighting at all until we've got analysis, and that could be it. However, I think what we have to realize is, like they said, they take these these sightings seriously. And Nick Pope has talked about this, for instance when the mod closed THEIRS, and we've talked about this even when with the Air Force.

Even though the Air Force is telling us we don't care about UFOs, we know from documents they do care about UFOs and they have been investigating them. So this is the truth. It's just this is all the public facing end of things, so right, this is a public statement. So what they're saying here essentially is we're now going to look into this, We're going to take these reports, which makes it incumbent upon them to have some sort of

public relations regarding all this. And that's what really this is kind of saying, is now we're going to start interacting with the public a little more about

this topic. Well, you know, it's always kind of still if you really think about it, the denial, because you know who wouldn't you know, who would be the number one, you know, branch of the government that would want to make sure the air is safe, and that would be the Air Force, you know, I'm talking about the US of course, But for them to deny it and like it doesn't mean anything, you know, Chicago, the O'Hare incident C seventeen, you know that one in particular,

like, oh my god, that's one of the busiest airports in the in the world and uh or at least in the one of the busiest in the country. And for there to be a UFO and then not to have, you know, for them not to worry about it at all, you know, it's absolutely silly and doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So yeah, so it's of course they're they're not. I mean, it just it never made any sense that they have no interest because of the safety factors alone,

basically exactly. And that gets into one of these stories. So on the front page of Open Minds doat TV, you'll see the original Politico article. You'll see my my blog kind of shaping this for you all, hopefully and giving you some more insight and links into some of the background. We've got the one you mentioned, the Washington posts, the angry pilots, and I think that's a big part of it, you know, these these pilots

like Commander David Fraverer. I don't think the Navy wants to disparage these people or do like what Nick Pope calls spinning dirty tricks and kind of you know, discount these people favors an important guy, and I you know, I think they would rather say, Okay, we're going to listen to your report, as opposed to their previous policy, which was to kind of make fun of the reports. But we've got the Navy wrote something up. They didn't

really add anything new to it, but it's interesting. The Navy Times wrote about it. But this is the last one I have here, which is from the war zone. Our buddy Tyler wrote away, and that's a good one. It's called what the hell is going on with the UFOs and Apartment

of Defense? And he brings up kind of what you're talking about. Of course, they would be idiots not to be looking into this, and he's kind of saying, it's kind of silly that they said they weren't paying attention to, you know, aircraft that can do things, you know, we could see doing incredible maneuvers, and not to pay attention to them. But the other thing that some people have been a little concerned about is he said this very could possible be, you know, a secret spy plane or drone

of some sort, and some people are like, that's impossible. If they looked at the SCU report, you know, the characteristics show that it's beyond what we can do. But I think this is a good sign because he also said, we cannot deny that these craft exists. At these craft, they were witnessed by the best of our best of all of our tech,

by our F eighteen pilots. This has to exist. This thing had to have done what these pilots said it did, So what the heck is it he's saying, we have to face the fact that there are these things out there. He's saying, now, it could be a black project. But I like it's at least moving the conversation forward to let's not ignore it because of the term UFO, let's take a serious look and try to figure out what this is. And I think it's he sees more information like that SCU

report, more background into people like Eric Davis. He's going to see that there's a lot more to this, and even he realizes. So it's going to be fun. Rogueway is a great journalist too. I don't think he's going to shy away from the tough stuff right right. And one of the things, you know, I recently had a mini debate with someone about the TikTok and they said, you know, they were sure that their their statement

is they were sure that it was a secret government project. And I said, well, you know, it doesn't It doesn't really, you know, make sense that we can have a craft that would hold together with the g forces that this thing was taking. You know, we just don't have that yet. I mean, I can't see how we could have that right exactly. So a couple other stories we're almost at a time. I can't believe it. I know it flies, but it's such exciting news. A poll

on the so Noma Index. So last week we talked about a UFO siding. They talked about that must have been a popular article because now they did a poll how many people have sightings, and they had about twenty percent had sidings. They also had about thirty five percent of people say there's no such thing as UFOs and it's a bunch of WHOI but a couple other things. A in South Carolina a welcome center for UFOs. Some guy in Wales took

a UFO photograph. I typically you'll notice, have not been including UK tabloids because they've got some really terrible stories lately, real goofball stuff. But I did include this one. Joe Wood because she's pretty famous, and I guess she's starting a TV show or a podcast where she's going to be interviewing other stars, including dan Aykroyd, about UFOs, and she shared some interesting sightings

there. And then finally, I do want to talk about this. I'm sorry, that's Ronnie Wood's yeah, former wife, Okay, I want to talk about this one. An interview with this guy Sean Cahill who's going to be on the Unidentified show on the History Channel. And this is from the Silva Record, so we had Danny Silva on, so this will be from the Silver Record. So some cool stories there. And one last thing,

sorry, Martin, I do want to talk about. Karen did extend the code for the International UFO Congress. So as you're listening to the show, you might want to go to Ufocongress dot com get your tickets and for any of the packages, use that code save fifty and you'll save fifty dollars save fifty. I'm going to try that code everywhere. Hey, So that's September fourth through the eighth coming up, Yes, September fourth through the eighth.

Thank you for bringing that up. And we've got a lot of the speakers listed, a lot of great stuff and we have some exciting speakers yet to be listed, so check that out. But thank you so much for joining us with the news. Martin. Oh, it's fun as always. You're welcome. It's a it's a blast. All right. Well, let's go ahead and get into our interview with doctor Eric Davis. Will be right back after this break. I am very happy to welcome to the show for the

first time, Doctor Eric Davis. Hello, how are you fine? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I am doing very well. And I guess my first question, because we have a lot to get into, is what do you think of this news coming just recently that the Navy is working up some guidelines on UFO reporting. Well, it's about time, and the Navy has always led all of the service branches in many areas, and this is just another example where they're head of the curve, whereas the Army

in the Air Force just shy away. For example, the Navy is the leader in directed energy weapons development in the Department of Defense, so they have had the most accelerated schedule for developing directed energy and deploying it on combat test vehicles, well, first doing experimental prototyping and testing and then deploying it on a combat vehicle out in the Persian So they're way ahead of where the Army and Marine Corps and the Air Force have been, and those services haven't even

yet fielded any prototypical combat weapons that can be fielded that have been fielded. They haven't done that. They're just doing development and testing and they'll be doing prototyping inside the United States and they're just lagging behind. And then with the UFO subject comes along here, Well, what do you know, it's the Navy that's having all the problems with the encounters that TIKTOC like UFOs or other UFOs, and so they're the ones that are going to take the lead to

mandate a specific recording reporting protocol for everybody that has such encounters. And you think as far as the leadership is concerned, are they concerned about possible unknown or do you think that they mostly feel that these could be foreign adversaries just using technology we don't recognize. Well, the first hypothesis is it's a foreign

adversary that we don't recognize. But then once you do the analysis of the F eighteen fighter FLR videos and radar from the surface warships like for example, I'm speaking of the USS Nimics Terrier Strike Groups encounter with the TIC TAC back in November two thousand and four, in the first week, I believe,

for a hope for about a week of encounters. And when you look at visual sightings, timing scope sightings that were done from on board the ships using sophisticated observational scopes that they use out in the ocean, and then of course the weapons systems radar and aviation radar, and then the fighters have their own

systems and so forth. When you look at when first contact is made, and then how rapidly the object moves and changes out and hovers over the ocean and zips off again, and it's changing altitude by dozens of tens of thousands of feet or dozens of times tens of thousands of feet in a matter of

three to five seconds, you're not basically talking about human technology. There's no Russian, or Chinese, or North Korean or Iranian or anybody else knowing, no NATO or any other alliance or non alliance country, not allied countries have any sort of technology that can perform the way these tic TACs were found to be performing. And it's really easy to discern the difference between even an unknown man made object and this phenomenon, because unknown men made objects have to obey

the laws of aerodynamics and the engineering that's associated with that. And excuse me, when the tic TACs don't have any observable controls, phasis, they don't have any appendites, they don't have any external engines and engine mounts and pylons. What am I thinking of? I can't think of the word that right now, but that's how the engines are connected up, and so control surfaces are lacking and external propulsion is lacking. Uh, you don't see windows,

and so you know what, what is this? This isn't anything a drone, even a drone wouldn't look like this. All drones have. All drones have an engine propulsion system which is very easy and obvious to observe, and their UH and their structural fuselages are are also very easy to discern and determine when they adhere to the human designs for aeronautical platforms that move through air. The things we're seeing are not shaped in the usual typical way that we humans

would shake them. So you you, you got to come up with another hypothesis, and the only hypothesis is something unknown, and it's got a good chance that it's not human technology. So thank you for that. But we'll get into your background now and kind of you know, related to this. Now, you've been doing this and a lot of your colleagues that you work

with, in particular, how put off. Of course you've been working in this arena for decades, But there are these ideas out there right now that this is part of some controlled disclosure, that you know, this has all been planned, and if that was so, that would mean that you were part of some bigger plan. I mean, is that something that you feel is credible at all? Do you see that? Or is this just kind of the fruits of your efforts, all of your efforts to bring kind of

the credibility to these more what would be considered fringe areas of science. Well, it's two things. It's the cumulative cumulative effect of all of our efforts, decades of efforts of hard work. But the release of this information is driven strictly by the phenomenon asself. All this nonsense about plans, disclosure or

confirmation, that's all conspiracy theory nonsense. And it's one of the first order hypotheses that jumps into many people's minds when they're uninformed about what's going on.

The United States government is such a big and complex organization, multiple organizations, i should say, interconnecting, interlocking, and you know, by by deliberative reasons, parts of it are secret and other parts are not secret, and so parts that are secret, don't talk to the non secret parts, and even the parts that are secret don't talk among themselves or within themselves because of

compartmentalization or certain or the differences in classification, many different secrets out. So there is no coordinated anything, because I have to guarantee you that the United States government is not that coordinated, especially in the Donald Trump ere anyway. Anyway, this is there's no such thing as they coordinated or uncoordinated, or planned or unplanned disclosure. That's all been a salesman pitch that was invented by

a lot of the more vocal, high profile celebrities in uthology. And that's how they sell their books, that's how they sell tickets to their special events, and that's how UFO conferences sell tickets to their conferences when these type of people are invited as guest speakers. This lies in the in the realm of

rational, scientific and bureaucratic thinking. The UFO phenomenon has been encountering naval weapons platforms repeatedly and has created the dangerous environment for the pilots, for the human

pilots that are involved. And so now it's becoming a great safety issue because the numbers or the frequency, well, I should say the numbers in the frequency of the encounters is pretty big, and it is not minute, it's not rare, it's not once in a while, it's more like, yeah, it's it's pretty often, and it isn't located and when geography, it's

spread across the globe and it's interacting with the US Navy. So that's been driving their desire to want to do this new reporting protocol and put it out there, which Political just reported yesterday. So and then as far as what lou el Zander did after he retired from the DoD IS, he was pretty upset that this program, the aa W SAP program, and it's not really

called the a TIP, aat IP. That's that's the Advanced Geo Space Threat Identification Program that Harry Reid pulled out from thin air and made it up on his own and a letter that he wrote to Deputy Secretary of Defense William Wynn many years ago. And the actual program is AAW SAP and I forget Advance Sterio Space Weapons an Application program. Yeah, that's that's probably so uh, And it turned out ways I think this is it kind of goes back to

your communication issue because it turned out. I think what it seems what had happened is Harry Reid was aware that Lou and his uh the guy running a AAW SAP had been working on a tip and using the term but that information probably didn't get to you all because you were hired by and working with AAW SAP. Uh No, it's just that Harry Reid wasn't fully briefed on everything. That's how That's how Lou had said that. That actually Harry, well,

yeah, okay, Well I'm not going to contradict Lou. Then that's fine. My view is, yeah, we we were working as subcontractors to big lore O Space Advanced Space Studies, who had the contract to the Defense Intelligence Agency, and so uh yeah, our worldview was a A W S A P and then all of a sudden we see a T I P pomp up. Okay, So I'm not going to contradict Lou. He knows more about it at that level. I didn't sit in his office and hear all

this jargon go flashing by. I'm down. I'm one of the worker bees who are expediting the mission. And anyway, so no, there's no, there's no, there's no conspiracy the theory, there's no uh uh, there's no long you know, it's like the long awaited return to Jesus. Well, everybody's had the long weighted disclosure and it's like, no, this isn't it. Uh Well, and I were. However, However, officially the United States Government of via the d D of course, I'll reverse it.

The DoD has issued and official confirmation. So that's what they've done. They've officially confirmed it. Now they have done disclosure. What they've disclosed is, hey, they have had encounters with unusual craft that they cannot identify as human made or unknown human made craft. In other words, they don't the objects don't follow the aerodynamic rules of engineering. Okay, they just don't, okay, And that's driven by physics. And they are not saying that they're breaking

laws of physics. So don't quote me on anything having to do with well, they're operating on a new physics we have an invented or no, they're breaking laws of physics. It is possible they're operating on the physics we haven't invented or haven't discovered yet. That's possible. We don't know. So anyway, the point is is that that these things are operating, they go way outside the envelope of our engineering and physics technologies. And and I can guarantee

you that no laws and physics are broken whatsoever. It's just that it's either the existing laws that we have that we haven't extrapolated it further enough, further enough, or expanded it enough into realms or areas of phase space where we could discover new solutions to these existing physical laws which would give us advanced propulsion and power that would produce this type of technology. Once you have an engineering

and a manufacturing technology to create these things. So that's where we're at. And these things don't look like anything that we can manufacture on Earth, so we don't have the manufacturing or industrial technology for it. We don't have an

engineering for it. In other words, the blueprints and designs to get something shaped like shape like an air a fighter sized piece of candy mount bent and get that to fly through the air stably and and do the wonderful things that they do in the years reported by the f A teen pilots of the associated with the Nimus Carrier Strike Group right. And then of course, and then we have the history offa of UFO encounters that we've seen all you know,

we know about it. You know, Jacques Eilie has recorded all this in his books Alan Heinek, Jacques Ailie, and Bob Emmenegger and his book associated with his TV documentary UFOs it has begun or UFO's past president in future which you know, two different versions because one was an updated version of the other, and so all the other well known UFO researchers in academia, industry and government who had done all the investigations and identified as many witness descriptions of UFOs.

When you look at these things, which were really well exemplified in the skimm artwork shown in Bob Emmeneger's book from nineteen seventy four, it's clear that these things have different shapes that are not an aerodynamic They just don't follow the human engineering physics principles for aviation or aeronautical or renal space flight. I do want to get into a few looking at things. Yeah, and I think that you've shown that well. And I do appreciate you answering the question about

the you know, disclosure conspiracy. And I am even a little embarrassed to ask because I do not see that present when looking into and researching any of this, I see a history, a rich history of you all working on this for years. But you know, it's something that comes up and readers wanted to know. But I want to get into your background and that history. So when was it that you began working on I'm not sure what you refer to it, but kind of what is considered kind of fringe science.

I don't call it fringe science ull it. I call it out of the back science. French has a negative connotation. It's not exactly an accurate word to use. We just call it out of the box, cutting out part

of that breakthrough, breakthrough science, et cetera. I became the world I became among the world's first few full time paid professional scientists who were investigating UFOs when I got hired by Bob Bigelow to work at the National Institute for Discovery Science in July of nineteen ninety six, and then I went to work for him in Las Vegas, and then I was joined by Colin Kelleher and doctor who's got a PhD in bio chemistry, molecular biology, and knowology, and

he's got quite a background in immunology and diseases mostly virology and cancers. So and then we were joined by doctor George Ohnette, who is the world famous,

world renowned Romanian veterinary pathologists who specialized in avian and bovine diseases. And we joined together with Colonel John Alexander who has a PhD in pantatology and he studies theft and he was interested in, you know, survival of consciouness after death, and he was working for Bob Bigelow at the time on the NID staff, and so we all came together and of course John had been working

for Bob for some time before we got hired. The three of us got hired in July of nineteen ninety six, and all of our work were good chunk of our work was well recorded and documented in Kelliher and Napp's book Hunt for the skin Walker, which you're familiar with, so especially our workout on the nids Ufo Ranch up in northeast Utah in the Utah Valley, and so that documents a good chunk of what we did at NI. It's not everything, because that was about that book was about the ranch, and we did

a lot more than just the Ranch. We often used the Ranch and Las Vegas as are headquarters to go investigate cattle mutilations and uf dotal and crypto terrestrial sightings, and so it's just whereever it was convenient. The Ranch is really nice because it's closer to the upper upper western side of the Midwest, and

Las Vegas is in the really you know, closer to California. So we're in the Pacific Coast area in Las Vegas, so we can reach quite a bit of places from there, but we're still kind of far removed from the from the actual Midwestern the East coast areas. So it's just that Big Low didn't want to expand NDS any further than Las Vegas, and so we just had those two jumping off bases from which we could do investigations. So we

mainly stayed regional within that area. And we had a one hundred number line that was set up in the FAA collaboration that was set up so that if anybody called UFO reports, they could call her a hundred number and we could do a preliminary interview with the call or take information to make a decision on whether it was necessary to send investigators out to investigate their sighting and whatnot. So anyway, I did that for six years until my job got eliminated during

a downsizing of MIDS because of the emergence of Big Loospace. Bob Bob Bigelow was shifting his attention away from UFOs because he kind of had about a five year attention span on these types of things and he figured we'd have all the

problems solved by then, and that's not possible. There's a lot of scientific problems, especially in phenomenology, which can take more than a decade of research and study and investigations, collecting data and analyzing it and forming and reforming or changing high until you finally converge on the hypothesis or the theory that is doing very well to explain all the data and so well, I was just going

to wrap it up. So I was there, and then I went to work for the Air Force Research Lab as a contractor to the Advanced Concepts Program Office at Edward's Air Force Base, California, and I did that from actually I started working for them before my job got eliminated, So from January until mid two thousand and five, I was working for them. But I started working for how I put off as a research physicist in November of two thousand

and four, and I've been working for However since then. And I got promoted up a few years ago up to chief Science Officers, so well, I became senior research physicists among the other staff. Of the other physicists we had who had been here about six years early than I have, six years

longer than I have. Howe was also on the staff as as as the director of the Institute for vand Studies at Austin, So he was the director who's also a research physics sistant's own right course, which you probably know.

And so there were three of us physicists on the staff, and then we had a couple of lab engineers who would put our experiments together, and then other support personnel and and so I just rose up through the ranks and became the chief science officer, which is where I'm at now now in that history, when you talked about Skinwalker, for instance, I've talked with Colm and with Alexander, and I guess the first question we would be they both kind

of had this view that they were outsmarted by the phenomenon. In fact, you know, Alexander uses his term kind of a precognitive sensiate phenomena. Would you agree with that kind of that estimation or thought, Yeah, that's pretty much true. That's pretty much true. Yea. I was always one step ahead of us, and John talked about one person in particular that the phenomenon seemed to center around, and from what I gathered, that might have been

you. Is that true? Yeah, pretty much. But Colin Keller her had witness and events, so I wasn't the only one that had all of the experiences. I had many experiences, and some of those I had with Column. But then there were experiences that Colin and I did not have because we got to a point to where we needed to rotate staff on and off the risk because Colin and I were fathers of very small children, very young children in school back in those days, and so you know, we need

to stay home a lot more. Otherwise our wives would get angry if we're gone. Tu Lo. So George Unette was relatively single. I mean, he was still married and his kids were grown, and his wife was working as a professional scientist in another state where they originally lived before he came to Las Vegas. So he didn't have any family duties in Vegas, so we had him, and then we had Canadian field investigator Chad Beacon, and we

didn't have Shelley Wadsworth involved with us directly. She was indirectly involved because she worked for Bob Bigelow as one of his field investigators, and so she would be more like a conduit of information, but she would do background stuff for us or bring it to information our direction and we'd act on it. So we had Shelley Wadsworth, Chad Deacon, but of the people that went to the ranch, it was basically call him George, myself, Chad, and

the former ranch owner. And after he left and moved away with his family to another state, we got the retired chief deputy of the Uinta County Sheriff's Department to take over the former ranch manager's job and he became the new ranch manager and his work for us also included him doing some investigations in the area for US, so he became an investigator as well. And then later on

down the road and its hired a couple more investigators. We had John Valier, who was a retired FBI special agent, and then Roger Pinson who was retired from the San Diego Police Department, who had worked for the Nevada State Law Enforcement. I can't remember which it was. It was having to do with the transportation police on the highways. I'm not sure if it was. I don't know that he was a highway patrol officer, but he was in that capacity and then he left that job and came to work for Rest as

a full time investigator. Roger, before becoming a police officer, was actually at the FOSSi. He was a special agent with ALFOSI, so he's an expert investigator like John Vlair. So we had quite a bit of staff and we were investigating a lot of UFO cases. Not everything was on the ranch, so we had periods of quiescence on the ranch. So there were always upcycles down cycles where there was where the activity would get hot or it would

just get cold. And then it reached the point by about two thousand it started getting cold right and stayed cold through two thousand and one, and by early two thousand and two that's when Bob decided to start Ashley. Starting in two thousand, Bob started cutting personnel because that's when the branch the phenomenon started getting cold, too cold that it didn't justify having all the all that staff.

Also, we didn't have that many outside ufons cases called into our winning you know the number, so we didn't have a lot coming in, and the Essaya wasn't reported a lot to us either, So it just got very slow. And Bob is very frugal about his money, so he's, you know, he wants to cut back. He's building that earl space company up and he needs me to do that with So we had to cut our budget

to come up with more money every time. So by two thousand and one, two thousand and two, John Alexander and Pete pick up an Eye, and I think Chad Deacon and Shelley Wisworth we all had lost our positions. So and Jed, Shelley and Chad weren't full time, so I got to be clear that they were only paid when they had an assignment, and so

they were like ten ninety nine employees. But Colin, George and John Alexander and I were all full time employees of NIBS, and John Alexander also lost his job at the same time I did in the spring, in the late winter of I should say an early two thousand and two, which was still the winner, and then my job actually terminated in the spring because I had some unused vacation and sickly that I could use up before actually was off the

payroll. So all right, we're gonna take away quick break and then we're going to come back because I have a lot of questions about some of the stuff that you've gone over, and you're just a wealth of information which is so helpful. But we'll be right back after this short musical interlude, or if you're listening on a station, a commercial break with doctor Eric Davis, So stay tuned. Welcome back to Open Minds CUFO Radio. I am.

I have the pleasure of speaking for the first time with doctor Eric Davis, and you've gone over a lot of really interesting information when it comes to the UFO reporting. In two thousand and nine, you know, Bass Big Loads Advanced Aerospace Group had a partnership with mof ON and I was actually the PR guy, so I was coming up with like the press releases for all of this stuff. But now in hindsight, you know, I kind of scratched my head and I think, wow, I was part of that program,

but did that reprogram receive some of those A tip fundings. Do you know did it? I didn't get that question. Can you repeat it please? Did the move on fast relationship partnership? Was that funding from asapp or a tip? I believe so it would make sense than anything that was nothing I had any roland. So my recollection is that I believe that that's the moufin funding. What did them out of that? So another question is related and

I want to ask more about some of this. But so Kick Green and Gary Nolan are both kind of working on these projects, kind of identify people who experienced paranormal phenomena or even with have remote viewing skills. Can we identify in their DNA or parts of their brains that make them more capable of these things or more susceptible to experiences? Have they come to you and taken samples from you? There's a part of that question that last Can you repeat that

last part of that question? So have they you skipped out? Have you been part of that experiment? Oh? No, I was a test subject. In other words, I contributed blood. But no, I'm not a part of that because I'm not a medical guy. That's that's well, and that's that was the sense I meant that, were you kind of a test subject because you had these experiences at Skinwalker? And I guess were you ever frightened? Did you feel threatened? Me? Not really? What was carrowing

experience? I guess that you had, I know, was that experience? Go ahead? I never really had a harrowing experience. I think the dark shadow experience was pretty star. I would say startling experiences that. Yeah, the dark shadow and the ball of light that came before, the orb that came before it, and then the shooting incident that we had at a separate time. No, I'm not aware of that one. I don't think. I don't remember it. Oh that was in the book. Yeah, that's

the one in the book where Jesus. That's over twenty years ago. Basically, we were out in the field at night. I think we were having to do something to deal with the pregnant cow that was giving birth and the herd was getting a restless. So the ranch manager thought, well, you know, there might be a big cat lurking around, and they usually like to lurk when the cows are most vulnerable because they're giving birth. So he was kind of concerned, and we had to go look outside to find out.

We had to get in his pickup and go drive around to find out if there was any big cats out there, and then take a look at what the cows are doing and find out about that pregnant count. I believe that was the case, about the pregnant count. I may be wrong about that, but that's what I thought. That's what I'm thinking in my mind, is I thought we were worried about a pregnant cow. Right. In other words, I do know that we were worried about the cows overall being

stirred up by something. And so we're in the near We're in the near pasture, closest to the range to the to the manufactured home that had installed for the staff to live, and we call that the observation house, and right next door to that is the house where the previous owners lived. And so anyway, so we were out that night. I don't remember now what time in the night it was. It was a kind of late, it was definitely dark. I remember what time of the year it was warm.

It could have been spring or fall. You know, I'm not that good about boat bying issues. I think it might have been the spring, because if one of being born, I'll probably be born in the spring or a late winter. But it was in warm season. So I'm we're driving around in the near field, near pasture, and there's a certain tree on a corner where the scent where the bob wire fence makes a ninety degree turn from going west to going north, I believe, and I may have my directions

turned around, so but nevertheless, it's a corner tree. It's a big Russian olive tree, and I think this is you know, it may have been the beginning, because I remember there were no leaves in the tree yet, so it might have been the end of winter beginning the spring. But it was still, you know, not cold. So I noticed two really large, growing yellow eyes. They looked like the eyes of a big cat,

the predator cat. The only problem is they were too big, they were too far apart, and they were up near the top of the tree man you know, in the in the in the main bulk of the branches, but close to the top, somewhere in the top one third of it. And they're just blinking, and I'm thinking, what the hell is that. I've never seen a cat that bigger, with eyes that white and big, and I'm thinking, now, that's no cat. So so I called, you know, Colin Kelleher was with me, and so was the ranch

manager. So I called their attention to it, and they saw it. And then the ranch manager thought, oh my god, that's the cat. You know, he immediately jumped to conclusions it was a cat. He had his rifle and in his spotlight with him. So we drove toward it. And what I remember is that the light the eyes disappeared and it looked like something fell from the tree and hit the ground. And then I didn't see

anything after that. It's it's just like the eyes closed up up in the tree and it might have and I thought something was falling and hit the ground, and I didn't see anything run away, But there's nothing there. So we parked the pick up in front of the raft. To the left of that, in front of the fence, and behind the fence is all this thick foliage, I mean, Russian olives and all kinds of other trees and shrubs and bushes out there, overgrown grass and whatnot. And now that I

think about it, yes, it was near the end of winter. It was it was wintertime. As a matter of fact, now that I think about, it wasn't really that warm, and I remember because we had snow

on the ground in piece not it wasn't snow covered. It was just patches of snow that was left over from an earlier snow, and the ground had warm depth enough that a lot of it melted off and only cool part only parts of it that were in the shade all the time were the only patches that stayed intact, but slowly molding away as the temperatures were warming up. So I think we were in this winter spring transition. So uh So, anyway, we parked the truck. Terry got out with this rifle and handed

me the spotlight. I got out and he told me to aim the spotlight. We're looking along the fence line and the trees to look for this animal because he's worried. It's a big cat and he's got to shoot it. Problem. We didn't see the thing with the glowing big eyes, but we saw something whose body profile we saw right in front of us on the other side of the wire. You couldn't see the rear end, you couldn't see the front. You just saw the middle of this body that looked fairly big.

To me, it looked like a big cow, but to Terry, it looked like a bear. And we were at point blank range from it. So he just shot some fire. He just fired some shots at it. It didn't flinge, and it just walked off into the shrubs and we couldn't see the hind end of this thing. So we yeah, So all three of us got our way through the barbed wire. We had to splat

the bob wire park to get through. We got in and there's a clearing behind all the shrubs and trees, and we followed the clearing, thinking well, that's the only place is going to go. And there's no footprints in the ground, on the ground at all, nothing, there's no blood,

there's no broken twigs or anything. Then we finally ran into the little patches of snow, and in the patches of snow, there's no footprints and no blood drops or trails of lots of blood that you would expect from an animal that's been shot several times, and nothing except one single deer hook print, just one single deer hookprint, not two, not three, not four,

just one. And it was pointed back in the direction of the pickup not in the direction that we would expect if it was running away from us. So that was odd. And we didn't see any other footprints. And I mean, this ground is a bit muddy from the snow melt, and and so and this is and this print was on the patch of snow. So anyway, we gave up because we looked all around, we couldn't find anything.

So we reported it to Bob Bigelwell later on and the next the next morning, Bob got his master hunter tracker who's the ranch manager for his private ranch. And I won't say what state that is. He I think he manages Bob's personal vacation ranch in another state. And Bob flew him in on his jet to our ranch and actually went to the airport at Vernal, Utah, and you have to drive twenty three miles to get to to get the forts to shame. So that guy showed up and he's an expert hunter tracker.

So he started working in a five mile radius starting from the shooting spot and just tracked that thing everywhere. He just could not find a single sign of a large animal that had been shot multiple times, and no carcass, no nothing, noo, no footprint, no hoootprints or yeah, no hood prints is what you would expect. So that was the That was the one experience, and then I had a couple of crazy experiences. Actually went in

the same just two separate buildings. It's the second home. It's the homestead, the crumbled down nineteenth century homestead where I had the dark shadow incident and the orbit incident. Would Colin Kelliger and I went into those homes doing some field readings with the radiation guide encounter and the and the trifield meter, looking at the field situation electric, magnetic and radio and whatnot, and then and

then looking at the nuclear radiation. And of course it's nothing out there as quiet, and I stepped into one of the homesteads and I got attacked and what looked like bats to me is are swirling around like they were angry, and I just ran out of there. I would say, yeah, I got frightened, but that that was so I kind of have to backtrack in

my earlier statement that I had. You know, I was you know, the experience I'd previously described, well, I didn't consider to be frightening, but this frightened me because I got my heart rate going, and I had to run out of there because I didn't know what to do, because I got what I thought, We're back swirling around. Well, that happened a second time, and I don't remember now whether it was the same incident or whether I went in a separate time, a separate day and had the same

thing within the second house. There's two little old houses next door to each other, and so I went into the second one, had the same experience, and these are taking place in the living room areas and what I upon reporting it to call and we go back in another the next day. Take a look when we got full sunshine. And I think this happened late afternoon, early evening, so I don't have full sunshine going on. And I think actually they were they were just after dusk. Gosh, now that I

remember the vents words staff or dusk. So we found a sparrow nest up on the corners of the wall and the ceiling, more than one. There were several sparrow nests, and sparrows used mud. They take in mud in their beaks, and I don't know if they actually swallow it. They probably swallow it and then they regurgitated to make these little mud huts up in the wall in the cornerary to protect their eggs. And that's what they were. They weren't backs. They were sparrows, and they scared the trap out of

mere. Yeah, but you know, we attribute that. Actually, if you want to look at another scientific basis holistically, you don't want to say I just walked in and scared the shit out of a few sparrows, mother sparrows that were protecting their eggs. What it could have been is that, yeah, they were there, and I think the common denominator would be, yeah, that's what I did. I scared them, so they decided to

go on the attack by flying around me. The problem is is that it may have actually been a part of the phenomenon that I would have stepped into there and gotten attacked. Now, I wasn't disturbing This is the funny thing. I wasn't disturbing anything. I did not poke those things. I did see them, I didn't poke them. I wasn't making noise. I was actually walking around quietly and just using the meters, taking a look at stuff. And all of a sudden, these black things, these winging black things

that I thought were bath were just rushing my head in circles. And I just don't know. I just John Ala Xander has a has a good background Colin Keller, who does in that than I do on explaining that part of

that part of the event. But that would be and Colin has written about it in the sense that he can come up with an explanation that it was the phenomenon, It was the act of the phenomenon that that had happened to me, and me only whereas other people have been in those two houses and never had that problem like I did, and it seemed that that problem only had followed me twice. So do you feel that I had another? I was just going to ask you, do you do you feel that you were

a magnet for the phenomena? And if so, do you know why do

you have any ideas well? That's the hypothesis we have on people like abductees or people who are not abductees but have uh more than the usual statistical probability of close encounter experiences of the worst or the of the mediocre, of the or of the worst kind uh people, you're you you can actually psychically act as an antenna for the phenomenon and it turns out that the studies that Kit Green and Gary Nolan have done along with columself, is that they have discovered

that the bio well, uh, they're not physicists. I can put it in the terms of biophysics. I'll just say the biology or the bioimmunology or the bioscience of the immune system is that your immune system, which I don't know how many of Americans people know this or aware of it, depending upon their degree of that you cation, uh, is that your immune system is a separate organ in your body. It's not just a system of chemicals.

Your immune system is an organ and it regenerates itself like some of your other organs. And also it's super sensitive and genetically. Gary Norman and Tom Kellner discovered that the immune system records every single event that has ever happened in your life. So it's like the Library of Congress that every that records everything that occurred since the day you were born, probably even before you were born.

And one of the things that records are the insults that your body has taken due to environmental exposure or injuries or diseases, and it keeps a perfect record of that stuff and so they hypothesize that you know, this is this is really greater. It's it's acting like a brain, and it's responding like a brain in a in a psychic way. So although it's tied into your you know, your real brain, but it does behave as if it has its

own line. So anyway, their hypothesis is and I don't remember all the discussions that we've had on this because that was many, many years ago, but the gist of what I know is that the immune system works like an antenna. It absorbs everything in the environment around you, and that might be the reason why the phenomenon is interested in you, because there might if it may know that you've got some genetic pre disposition that is interested in the most.

And that's what Gary and Kit's work is all about, is why are certain people highly sensitive to being this, having this genetic disposition to phenomenon encounters? And then they go into the caut eight containment studies using fMRI scans and whatnot, and so you know the rest of that story. So it seems

that there are people that are more sensitive than others. And it is just as an industrade old fashioned brain psychic sense, you might need to throw the immune system into it, because the immune system does behave like an antenna that sex and information records it and it's got knowledge and it may be communicating in its own way that we you know, we haven't fully discovered everything that it does to my understanding, and so it's still understudy. And genetics is very

complicated. Genetics is not straightforward, and it's not linear. It's a very non linear, nons straightforward, a very counterintuitive thing that produces life in this you know, at least on this planet, and as far as we know where there's still much more to be learned. We haven't learned all there is to know about it or to find out about it. We're still making those discoveries. So the same goes to the immune system, because the immune system

is a function of genetics. Of course. So when you refer to abduction, do you believe that people actually are being taken physically taken by extraterrestrials. I don't think they're being taken by extraterrestrials. We don't have proof that they're extraterrestrials. We know that whatever it is is not human. Now there is the hypothesis that they've been abducted by a covert, clandestine, rogue, non

state operation that looks at people of specific backgrounds with specific predisposition. Maybe it's a genetic thing too, and they get abducted because they're being tested or examined or there's a purpose involved with that. That's a hypothesis I've been I've heard among my colleagues, and the standard hypothesis that comes from John Mack and David Jacobson and Bud Hopkins work has all been the extraterrestrial hypothesis that UFOs are from

another planet. They're coming down, They're going to pick a few humans off the ground to evaluate them, just like you. Just like a cattle rancher who's breeding specific breed of black angus or specific breed of Charlotte's cattle, wants to walk randomly into the pen or into the pasture, now a particular cow,

take it back. And like the former ranch manager, the original owner of the ranch at the time that we in our era, the one who reported all of his family's problems with that phenomenon and ended up working for Bob Bigelow when they left the ranch. What he was was he was a college educated very sophisticated animal husbandry expert, and wasn't just his skill running a ranch raising cattle. It was his skill in that he was able to do cross

breeding and hybridization breeding using the techniques he learned in college. And that was he could transplant embryos. He knew all the process and procedures for developing bovine embryos and transplanting them in order to get the best breed of cattle with the best meat quality for a market. So he was that sophisticated. So he's going to wander into the ranch and just grab you know, this, this female there, that female there, and take them into the to the labor

or whatever. Yet at the ranch, that served as a spot for examining his cattle, his two cows, his breeding cows. So you know that's

that's similar in a way, it's almost a similar function. The other thing I caution in your listeners is don't assume that you can apply human ways of thinking about these things, because although there's a metaphorical analogy to it, the fact is is that anything that's non human necessarily will not think like a human because of the way they evolved, the way their senses developed and the way

senses right information into whatever neurological complex neurological cognitive system organ in the in their bodies which we would call a brain. So they're not going to have the same ways or methods and frame of mind and processes to think and rationalize the way humans do because of the environment they came from. So we can't assume that. Now, if you're thinking they're a row covert operation of some sort, whether military or non state actors, sure they're going to behave like humans

do. They're going to operate like humans do. But if you're going to take the hypothesis that this isn't human, then don't overlay human thinking and human framework or human frame of mind, i should say, and human theories and human explanations and speculations on what they're doing, because what they're doing, you do not know. They haven't communicated that to us. We have no idea what that's about. We can speculate endusly, so right, and that's a

hard time. We're very cautious about that. To hard part with speculation, especially with science, we don't know what we don't know, and typically the answers are things we can't even speculate because we don't know. Yeah, we know, we don't know one thing. They're there, they're doing something. We don't know their origin because they don't want to communicate that to us. Right, What about the crashes are like, there's there's been some references.

I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to alleged UFO crashes, but I think you've made some comments, maybe some others would that have worked with a typic of make comments that there may be a program to look into that, or there there may have been crashes you all feel, Yeah, there have been crashes. The superpowers on the Earth have had their share of crashes, and they

have recovered the vehicles from their crashes. So that's why Shaku Lee and I agree that even though these things behave like a conscious, spiritual, psychic entity, they do have an advanced technology. They have hardware, and there's a craft, and there's occupants or euphonots that he calls them that Shaklee calls them euphonats. So there's euphonots running these craft whatever they may be. And he likes to make an analogy of these of these beings to the little people or

the fairies of Europe and Ireland and h Magonia. Remember that the passport can go into one of his books and that kind of thing, So that's fair enough. So anyway, so yeah, they have that technology. We do too, And it's a very super sensitive topic because it's it's something that your listeners are probably going to be shocked at. Probably less than one one thousand to one one hundred thousand of the United States military and the government overall doesn't

even know about it, or so I got. I said that contradictory, I said, probably a minute fraction, a like, less than one one thousandth or one one hundred thousandth of the people with the UH need to know, access, need to know, authorization and security clearances to be involved with that type of work are the only ones that know. The vast majority of

the rest of the government really doesn't know. And that's why one hand, like the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing virtually because of the stove piping that goes on in compartmentalized programs, and you just can't knock on doors and say hey, here's who I am. I've got you know, I don't have I've got clearances, but not the right ones I don't have the need to know, but I want to know, so can you tell me? And you're going to be lied to because that's that's the rule.

You don't want to tell the enemy anything. And this guy who's knocking on your door asking you about UFO crashes could be an asset for the Soviet Union or the Russian Federation or the Chinese PLA or the mancome poops over and ran in North Korea and so forth. So you know, even if it's an American, you still don't want to answer that question because you don't know who they are and you're not supposed to be revealing that information. So it

takes a lot of hard tracking and digging. You have to networking, and it can take years and years and years, and then you develop the security clearances and the authorization for need to know that appropriately out appropriately allowed you access to that information. Then you find out, hey, yeah, it's there, it's true. On the other hand, sometimes the information does come out on its own, but it doesn't come out in the way that Upology yet

likes to fantasize about it. It comes out only to specific people who have specific talents and skills, who have security cleerices. They may not have to need to know, but they could have to need to know if they were presented with that requirement or if they were presented by a crash recreeaval program and saying, hey, I want to bring in gentleman XYZ. He's got the

security clearics, but he doesn't have the need to know. I want to give him the need to know because I need his talent to help us solve this problem with the crash recrievble reverse engineering studies. So then they will do that other times. That's the official way of doing it. That's how you officially get brought in. The other unofficial way is again you build a level of trust on certain individuals and people within the network who, after a few

years of knowing them, you work with them. They know who you are, they know what you're capable of, they know your competencies, and they want to bring the topic up on an informal basis with you. Sometimes not even on an informal basis, they may want to bring the topic up outside the realm of the security apparatus, but within a skiff. In other words, there's going to be no passing of security clearances to establish that I am

going to be allowed to be read in on the crash recruitval program. But they'll bring me into a skiff and want to talk informally in the skiff about it and say, well, this is what we can tell you. That there's things that we can't tell you, and we can tell you those things if you can get the next level of security and authorisation to get the need to know and then we can do business with you. But before we get to that point, here's what we can tell you without having to cross that

red line of the need to know and the property. So so you work this stuff out over a number of years, you built networks and you find the right people, and then you know, you don't do it by knocking

on doors. You do it just through the happenstance of having a contract with somebody or a subcontract and you're interfacing with them, and then lo and behold, you find out they're the vice president or the president of one of the legacy alo space corporations and they happen to be a PhD of some sort of there, you know, some discipline, their own a stem discipline, all on their own court. And it just so happens if they were a guy

that worked on the crash recreeval program. All lo and behold, and then they find out that you're working in the UFOs. You're on the UFO subject for a government up woor a dood program. And let's say, well, that's wonderful. You're officially a government contractor or a subcontractor and you're working with another alspace company. Okay, Well, let's well and you're working on UFOs. Well, guess what, we did it too, and we don't do

it now, but we did it in the past. And here's what we here's what we can tell you off the record, and here's what we can here. And you'll have to go another step before we can tell you what it is on the record. But it has to be through that. Again, you have to have the right clearances, you have to have the authorisation for the need to know, and then you can get the full story. So it's a very complex process. It just the way Steep Greer went about

it for his disclosure program that was called the shotgun approach. The shotgun approach moves. He was putting himself out there during the nineteen nineties saying, talking about crash appreevals, and I won't go through his whole story. I'm sure

you've already covered it or other people have covered it. But one thing led to another, and he was like a farm magnet tracking all these retirees from various parts of the government US military who had some knowledge about the UFO subject and the crash appreeval subject in particular, and a big majority of them were crackpots, they were phonies. But there was a small number of them that were the real deal. And so he successfully picked up up a very small

number of them and got some information. And uh, now as to the veracity and quality of that information, and that's another story, but he did get some interesting information. Okay, so can you share with us who you think the deal? Could you share with us who you think might have been the real deal out of his witnesses? No, no, no, no. What I mean is the information the information was not was was uh was verifiable. In other words, once people looked into it, they said,

yeah, this is realistic. Whereas a good chunk a good chunk of his disclosure witnesses, you know, you had middle of the road guys. They had some information, but it was too prierful. It was just antidotal, and then you had the guys that were real liars. He's got a chunk of liars out there that real that he I don't know how much effort he spent on vetting any of those people. And I'm not going to name names as to who they are, and it's not important because that doesn't because the

fact that they have no real information means it's noise. We're dealing with signal. We're interested in signaling science, folks, not the noise. Chuck the noise. So so he did have a small signal of people that had verifiable information, and unfortunately, that's, like I said, it's the shotgun approach. They came forward, they gave him information that was freely given to him, but it was after the fact. It was nothing that could be acted

on. The people that gave him information were They weren't directly involved with the with crash reprieval at all. They actually were either peripheral or they heard it from somebody reliable. So the vertical information was high quality, but they were not first hand people, you know what I mean, people with firsthand knowledge or firsthand exposure to this whole subject. So he got pretty close, but

that's the shotgun approach. That's where you're going to shoot the shotgun. Your poets are going to hit all over the wall, and there's going to be a small part of the wall where the pelts hit the right targets and all the rest of the pellets pretty much only just a few pellets hit the right targets and all the rest of the pelants just randomly hit a bunch of bad targets. Well, the hard part is that the target's invisible. We don't know. Yeah, spread it right of chock and spray, but we don't

know where the target is. Yeah. So here's the thing that you should know is that the crash aprieval program is very small program. It is not a massive, huge government infrastructure. It's a very poorly funded program, and

it hasn't actually probably hasn't had any money for a while. I do know that the program was terminated in nineteen eighty nine for a lack of progress in reverse engineering anything that they had, any of the hardware that they had, and don't resurrect it every maybe so often, so many years by, and they'll try it again, and if I just don't succeed, the departmentalization and kill it. Scientists cannot communicate with other scientists to get help. It's like

I'm doing this this first semester differential calculus homework problem. I'm doing the rocket equation and I am stuck on the boundary condition so I can come up with the right solution that gives me the right answer to the propellant mask blow rate. And I'm having a hard time. So what do I gotta do. I'm missing something. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do with this and to be able to solve this differential equation. So I got to call

my buddy who's in my class. He see the math with and he's the one that gets straight a. So I'm gonna call him on the phone and say, help me with this. This is what I got done, and

this is what I'm stuck on, and he'll explain it to me. Well, if you're in the crash retrievalent program, or any black program for that matter, and you come up with the roadblock, a technical roadblock, you can't call your best buddy or any expert that you don't know and just call him cold and say, hey, this is who I am, this is what I'm doing. This is what I'm working on. I'm stuck. What

do you suggest I do to get past this roadblock? You can't do that, Yeah, it's any Nick Pope had talked about the same problem when they did the Condine report. They genuinely had some intelligence people who wanted to look into the issue, but they had no access. They couldn't talk to anybody who had They weren't cleared for all of these things they wanted to write about, so they just had to speculate. Yeah. So, and this isn't

just unique to the Crash approval program. This type of problem is unique to all of the black programs that the DoD HASDHS has them, the Military Services service branches has them, but Department of Energy has their own versions. And you know, you you the purpose of a black program with a special access program security REP is you've got to limit the information and exposure to the information to as few people as possible in order to produce the map security protection against

espionage by the enemy. And so that limits who you can work with that that also is cleared to know, That limits the amount of experts that you can have working with you. And gosh, you know, if you're If your small group of experts are stunked, you're screwed because you basically can't call your buddies or somebody you know, or somebody you know of who's an expert better than you, or you know a bigger expert on the subject at a

university either near you or at a university across the country. You can't call those guys. You can't even read them in because you're not supposed to acknowledge some of these black most of these black programs, you're not supposed to be acknowledged. So you know, for that basis that you don't legitimately exist. So you can't tip tip off the university expert that there's a program by calling

him and saying I'm stuck on something. You just can't do it. If it's really dire and it's the problem that really the expertise is desperately needed outside of the cleared group, then the program manager and the security officer will will write a justification to go reach out to the university expert and read them in on the program, and they'll have to be given security clearances and sign the

NBA. You'll fill out the s F eighty six and all those forums and get the DD two fifty four filled out, and then they'll be told, you know, you you die with this information. You can never talk about it until after you die, until after you it did. So that's how that works. And it happens in cruise missile programs. It happens mostly programs

involving covert clandestine operations, and they're logistics. It happens with nuclear weapons development and deployment, it happens with intelligence operations, and it happens with technology development. And the interesting thing is is today there's a big move away from special acts of programs. They're extremely costly to maintain, extremely costly. Let me

tell you this. To cost to maintain information, personnel, of physical security for a special actions program can be tens of times larger than the cost of the program itself. So let's say the program is building the B twenty one bomber. Right, Let's just assume, let's say for the sake of argument, the Farmer project is fifty billion dollars total. That's probably not even reasonable, but I'll just say that forgure, the security for that is going to

be could be as much as ten times higher. I mean, it could be stretched out over a number of years, of course, not all at once, so it could be as much as ten time hires because you've got to maintain all kinds of security. Now that's the typothetical. That's amazing. So we're pretty much out. Okay, Yeah, so I want to ask you one last question, and it has to do with the technology development like

you had just mentioned. But essentially, you know the goal. I think it's been your goal and house goal and it's to the Star's goal is to actually use what you've learned from the observation of the phenomena to develop a technology. Do you think that's possible and is that possible in the near time.

It's hard to predict. It's really hard to predict. It probably is long term, not near turn more, some of these projects that were like, for example, that's what the thirty eight papers that the DEIA wanted in their tasking through Bigger Earlspace Advanced based Studies contract was to take the physics that physics

and engineering of of twenty nine and twenty ten extrapolated to twenty fifty. Are we going to be able to have the physics and engineering and a technology industrial base that'll produce a vehicle that'll match the tic TACs by twenty fifty, because what if the tic TACs decide all of a sudden to turn against us, and they use their advanced weaponry whatever they have, and start hurting people, start destroying things. I mean, we haven't seen that happen, but we've

seen hints of that during Bluebook's investigation. The Northern Tiers stack encounters with the giant UFOs that shut down their warhead navigation systems, and that happened multiple times.

That happened in the late sixties, and happened in the mid seventies, and so and so we know that they're quite quite capable of rendering our nuclear warheads and ICBMs useless, which is pretty dangerous because if the Soviet Union had decided to launch a war right then and there, just coincidentally, the damn UFOs had rendered it impossible for us to do a counter strike because our goddamn ICBMs up in the Northern Tier were shut down. So that's an example of

when it gets bad. And then there's Kolaris. Kolaris is an example where the box shaped UFOs that think called Schoupas were actually killing some people and injuring large numbers of people, and they were using beams to do it. And I'm sure you're familiar with the Kolaira's case from the nineteen SEVENTIESICIC it was and what that was, Project Plate. That's what the Brazilians called Project Plate. I've leaf, so the Brazilian Air Force. So so that's you know,

the UFOs have not been benevolent. They have not shown any brother leaf you know, space, brother we love and peace type movements towards us. It's all been just hide and seek, hide and seek. We use stealth as much as possible so that humans don't see us in the environment. And then when we want to expose ourselves, we expose ourselves, do our little fun games and then take off and they may be testing our technology. You may

be testing in the US Navy's capabilities when they do this. And also they've done it with the Air Force too, so you know, what are they doing it for. Well, again, they're not humans, so they don't think like humans. Right, They're doing it for whatever. In case they decide to become aggressive, we're screwed. Basically, we don't have aircraft that

can match them. We you know, we haven't shoed at them those you know, the NEMUS was out on a on a certification training to get certified to go deploy the Persian Gulf in November two thousand and four, and so for the certification training, they just have their fighters taken off the carrier deck of nimics and flying around doing maneuvers. But they're not armed because they're not supposed to be. You know, you don't want them shooting at your at

their fellow planes. It's not a red I think they might have had Red Team blute things going on. Yeah, they might have just been doing routine. Yeah, so, but you can't have light ammunition right when they want to do bombing and stray thing. They do that out at the Nevada Air Force Weapons Testing Range near the test site, and that's where they can do

all the straying and bombing they want with by wardenates. But when you're over the ocean and you're near ships and you've got your buddies in the air and a Red Team bluteam cut configuration, you don't want to you can't have live wardness. They had no way of shooting them down. They were asked if they were armed, so they could attempt to shoot one down or just least send off the missile or fire some guns to kind of scare the UFO into responding, and they, you know, the pilot said, no, we're

not armed, we don't have anything. They couldn't shootn't done. So that was a test that could not be performed to determine whether you could shoot one down. So so we just don't know, but you got to worry about it. That's what intelligence and military doctrine are all about. It's about planning for potentialities, and we have to worry about something more advanced could be overwhelming our military technology. And so we've got to be able to extrapolate to twenty

fifty. Will our physics be there, will our engineering be there, Will our industrial manufacturing technology be there to produce tic TAC type technologies? And on the flip side of that, boy, that would be wonderful if we could get there, because commercially, it would revolutionize transportation and energy on the earth, you know, for all countries. So our GTSA is looking to benefit you know, that's a public benefit corporation, so they're looking to benefit the

public with this. We're not looking at making weapons. The military needs to look at making the weapons and that's why we had the thirty eight papers exactly, so that it was a lot of help. That was a lot of information. Thank you so much. It's great that you talked Beast because there's a lot of information to convey. But it was an absolute pleasure to have you on and I hope we can have you on again one day. Oh you're welcome, and thank you very much. And I enjoyed helping you out

with your show. We were reconnecting the future. Thank you so much for Eric Davis coming on the show. Really important to have him at this moment in time because of all this exciting stuff going on. And he's a key player when it comes to all of this, having worked for Bigelow for many many years and then also involved with the A Tip program some of this Pentagon work, so his insight is absolutely invaluable and we got a lot of great

news right there, So thank you so much to Eric Davis. Also, I do want to give you some updates, so I did talk about earlier before going into the first break that you can still save on the International UFO Congress. Go check out Ufocongress dot Co. If you want to get some tickets any of the packages, you can get fifty dollars off still and they are early bird pricing, so you're gonna get absolutely the best deal right now.

Go use the code save fifty so when you're checking out all up uppercase, put save fifty and you'll be able to get a hold of that deal. Also, some people you know, some of you, have mentioned that UFO that hovering UFO lamp that you saw me do with UFO Live and stuff, or you can see it behind me in Martin Show. We do have those at the UFO Congress store, so visit the store also if you want to see some of the cool stuff we got there, including those very cool

lamps. Otherwise, I do want to also give you an update on Patreon. So I haven't talked about that much, but yes, please do. I'm asking you all to please go to Patreon and register for a dollar. At least. You know, there's three different cheer levels, but yeah, the least one is a dollar. And the reason I'm saying this is because

then I'm going to share with you exclusive content. So last week we had this really cool exclusive audio of Bryce Able sharing a story about a former department or a secretary of Energy who apparently, at least allegedly had an alien experience. So if you want to hear that story, go to Patreon, and you've got to be a patron to be able to hear that. Otherwise, I got some new audio. So David Marler, he's famous for triangle shaped UFOs. He literally wrote the book on it, and he's done some amazing

research. I've had him on the show a couple of times. If you haven't heard of him, look him up. He's absolutely incredible. In fact, his book is always in my list of recommended books. But he was at Phoenix move On lately, so luckily we got to hang out and I did a little bit of bonus audio for you all with him. I asked him what is his favorite triangle UFO case and tell us about it, and then also what is his reaction to this news about the Navy making some UFO

guidelines. So David always has some incredible insight and that is going to be posted at the Patreon site, So if you're a patron, you can also listen to that audio. So some special stuff, and I mean, come on, it's only a buck. A month and you get the special stuff, several special videos and audios throughout the month, and you also help me out because I want to keep doing this, i want to keep sharing UFO information, and I've got to be able to make some money doing it.

Otherwise I've got to kind of transfer my efforts into things that do make money. But that would be a great help if you could just go in there and do that for me. Thank you so much. You'll find the link in the show notes. Otherwise, I want to think that people who have helped out this show to well, I should give you an update. Some of you have been asking when are you gonna have it? Loui Elizondo on

when you're gonna have Louelizondo on, All I can say is soon. Each week he's hopeful, He's like, oh, I think it's going to be this week. I think it's going to be this week. But we have to wait for the History Channel guys to kind of say, hey, greenlight, it's time to go ahead, because they usually have kind of a period

of time where they're like really pushing the show, you know. And so in fact, I've got a couple of great stories with some new information including an interview, a short little bit of an update from Leslie Kane, the person who helped write that original New York Times article that broke the Pentagon news, some clarification that I've put in a story that's going to be upcoming. So I've got a couple of really great upcoming Den of Geek stories that update

you about a tip in the Pentagon program. So you go into this History Channel show knowing all you can, and really, I don't think there's anybody out there. There's not a whole lot of people that is sharing public articles to this depth about what's going on. The one person I can think of who's really actually the best resource for all of this is George Napp with KLAS.

So he's doing a tremendous job and he's got some new information coming out this week, which is important, So do pay attention to George Nap as well with KLAS. But otherwise you got me. So I'm getting out information all the time, and I've got new news coming out this month and it'll be related to all of this, so always some cool stuff. So if you follow me on Patreon, you'll also be updated to everything that I'm up to and all of this late breaking information so you will be the most informed.

Huh. That's that's worth something, right, So go check that out. Thank you all so much for joining us today. I want to thank Caleb Hanks with the opening and Closed Music Systematics with the bumper music. Sorry, I've got to sniffles. My nose has been stuff, so I'm doing the uzz and kind of out of it a little bit at least, you know, sound and funny and stuff. Not that I don't always sound funny at least some of the feedback is, but oh well, what can you

do. But thanks for putting up for me. With me this week, and join us next week for another great show, hopefully if it's lou If not next week, it'll be the week after. But even if it isn't, I have a number of really great shows lined up for us, So stay tuned. We'll talk to you next week. Until then, audio smooth, chachos you mus