Derrel Sims, Alien Hunter

Welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro Roja. Hello and welcome to Open Minds Radio. I hope you are enjoying your Memorial Day. Hopefully you have the day off and you're out barbecuing and having fun, because that's what we're doing. We're actually not

in the office. This is not live. Instead we pre recorded or actually this is an interview I recorded five six years ago with Darryl Simms, the alien hunter, and after spending a weekend together when we brought him out to Denver, we sat down and I was able to get him to talk about some of the interesting stories he has accumulated over the years. I hope you enjoyed the show. The first thing I would like to start with is just

a general background, well my background in terms of as an investigator. My background, I was in the Military Police for three years as a volunteer during the Vietnam War. Soon after that, the Central Intelligence Sagency contacted me, through me and a number of other people, about sixty of us in the military police school and we had no idea who they were. Long story shortest, we simply ended up in Central Intelligence Agency in a covert operations group for

two years. So my background investigating as a police officer for three years, two years as someone that was in the intelligence business, and the fact I've been a private investigator and a process server licensed in the state of Texas, all this moves together toward my area of investigations on physical evidence of those who alleged humidiated in contact. And then when did you move on to hypnotherapy and

in particular working with abductees. I've been working in hypnotherapy about fifteen years. I learned that specifically not for the purpose of abductions, but specifically for the purpose of accelerated learning and things that I was very interested in doing. I ran some sensory deprivation tanks about fifteen years ago, wet and dry tanks,

and would train professionals who were concert pianists and concert guitarists. And as an example, the Houston Classical Guitar Society paid me two thousand dollars for presentation on how for them to do play better and performed better using some of our techniques which I used the worst and the very best of their people, the president and one of the lowest members, and the results were startling to all those who listened. Is there a particular moment or something that an event perhaps that

drove you to move? And I delved so deeply that abducta actually that there was. My abduction started in nineteen fifty two when I was four years old, and they ended violently thirteen years later in nineteen sixty five. As far as I was concerned, that was it and everything was over. Trauma's great, you know it's over. You know. I had no idea what stuff was all about. Just knew that it was real. It was happening to me, and I said, kept a lot of it quiet. I kept

it quiet for my family because the events were over. The only problem is when I was my son was about six years old, he experienced his first subduction, and of course that just opened up the biggest can of worms you can imagine for the family. My wife wouldn't know what was going on, and so I had to tell her and said, it's in the family lineage and it won't affect everybody, but it will affec sun and fortunately it's not affected my daughter or my grandchildren, which I am grateful for, but it

almost destroyed my son's life. Was your wife aware of your situation or even with the field in general before this happened, not at all. I kept all this away from my family. I did not want anybody to know this stuff. So one of the things that we were really interested in bringing it to Colorado for was related to an incredible case that we've had in the last few years, and where from your research, one of our investigators decided to

try the black light. Okay, the first of all discovered the florescence phenomena in nineteen ninety two. Discovered it while looking at one of our abductees and we found a Mandelbrot set type marking on the inside of her left arm. She freaked out, literally started rand to the bathroom, started scrubbing like a rape victim, and try to get off. It just got brighter. You can't get the stuff off. It's subdermal on contact. If it's from the

alien entity, whoever, whatever they are. The fluorescence is different than phosphorescence. Phosphorescence is a totally different situation. We do find some phosphorescent materials in

some adduction scenarios. But for the most part, in the rare cases that we do find this stuff, it is generally fluorescence which will which has a certain animeter length of various different kinds of fluorescences do, and that gives us an idea of what wavelength it is, so that we can actually make some kind of determination about the material and whether it may be in fact alien or something else. And what was it that made you first look at the fluorescence

or give you the idea. Well, the DSP satellite especially asked me the same question years ago in nineteen ninety five, and I said, because the alien sees an infrared, violet, and visible light in my opinion, And he says, we'll give you an example. I said, well, you know these people who you know, try to turn on their cameras and film their rebductions all day. He said, y'all notice that they can't do it. Cameras turned off in the morning, or nobody showed up. It's like

somebody already can see what's already lit up in the room. They know what's going on. And I says, it doesn't mean they can't be filmed, doesn't mean they can't even be captured. You're not going to do it that way, because you're playing into their hand, and it's like a blind person saying, Oh, all I've got to do is just to keep moving around here. And these people are seeing in the room. They won't notice if I try to hide or something, it's just not going to happen. You're

playing a game that you can't win. So you have to understand the nature of what they see, how they see, and what they do, and you have to allow for that. Once you do, you may be real surprised that the results you're going to get. And I think we're going to be able to prove that. I think some of the evidence already does. The Florescent marketings themselves shows a trace upon these people left by the alien entity.

It's like some kind of a sweat, for lack of a better term, an alien fingerprint, so to speak, left on people that penetrates their skin subdermly on contact. If you can wash it off or get it off, we don't even want to know about it. This stuff will come off. It'll literally be absorbed in the skin by the body in about twenty four hours, and in most cases we have had rare cases where it lasted up

to two weeks, but again that is extremely rare. So in some of the cases you get a sweat where it seems like an entity had come in contact with the subject in that areas for us, and although sometimes you also find symbols, the casual contact fluores since it gets on these people is often like long finger marks where they've touched you, or just like sweat maybe on your hand where they held you or you held them. That sort of thing

will show up. The markings themselves that involve geometric patterns, such as a things such as maybe like a little pyramid like or triangle shape, or some other moon shape or some form like that in the strange little markings, and these are very deliberately placed on there's no question about it. Either it was done by a machine or something else. It's very deliberate about what it is, and it seems to be in most cases the same coloration and the same

nnimeter length as the other. What do you find more? Do you find more of the sweat type marks or more of the symbols? What is a percentage? Well, that's since we usually cannot get to an abductee within the first twenty four hours, could they usually tell you this stuff. About a month or two later, then you realize, you know, we've already lost this that aspect of it. It's kind of hard to answer that question because

there's not enough stats to really verify that. But the fact is that the generally speaking, the touch type things, the casual contact, seems to be more prevalent. The more startling, of course, is the symbols, because

those are very deliberate. I mean, if you see a mandol brought set on the inside of your urn in fluorescence in brilliant blue, this raises a degree of a worm about who's where have you been and who's been living your life and doing things to you you don't even have a clue about, right, So I don't think it was sleep paralysis. Sleep proalysis doesn't have to

do with any type of fluorescence. But with the symbols, do you find mandelbrats are more complicated shapes like that, or do you find more simplistic type shapes. Most of the symbols we're finding are, in my opinion, fairly simplistic. For instance, ay, there may be a crescent moon, or it may be triangular forms and so on. But the more complicated forms we

they are fairly rare. We found one semi complicated form. In my opinion, I was semi complicated on a doctor in Phoenix that was back in nineteen ninety four. And her case was extraordinary as far as I'm concerned, because not only did she find the marking, did I find the marking on her shoulder. But the fact is, shortly thereafter after I left the conference that day, she noted to me within about four days later that she had been

missing for three days, and she said, I have flora. I got one of those black lights, and she said, mister Simms, I have florescence from my neck, on my breast, on my stomach, on my thighs, on my shins, tops of my feet. I have fluorescence on my pubic hair. I have florescence in my vagina. And she says, I have the slightest idea how any of it got here? How did she find that out? She found that out simply by following my instructions the night

before when I examined her, and she took off. She I say took off. Many some abductees simply take off in an event. For instance, they'll say I went out. I felt like I should leave, you know. So I went driving around three o'clock in the morning and I saw a three foot wounded owl walking down the street. Well, there aren't any three foot owls wandering around the streets with large black guys. There just aren't any. So what they're seeing is a screensaver memory where this situation is happening.

And this lady just took off for three days, left her husband, left everybody, and just took off and disappeared for three days. Comes back to Floresce's from head to toe. She did something rather remarkable. She literally took the Florisian sample if I asked her to, and placed it actually on slides. I was shocked that she would do such a nice thing. Were you able to examine that. We've had several attempts to have flores since examined,

usually because the samples are quite small. Quite you can imagine scraping just a few cell levels down on somebody's skin and trying to send that off to scientists. And first of all, most of the time that's usually contaminated because they you're going to use like a kitchen knife or something like that, rather than something's clinically clean and you know, clinically available that's just normally not going to happen. So as a result these samples Phyllis. Buttinger has been of a

great help to us. Others have to eve. Lorgan's helped us with some of it, but by and large, there is nothing conclusive at this point. It has been an anecdotal and interesting, but it's it's nothing conclusive, nothing scientific that I have to report. We are very interested in the flores since I have a top optics professor who contacted me one time from a major

universe and he was so delighted over the fluorescence. He said, I'll if you want to publish this, he said, I'll help you get it published in the scientific journal. And I said, well, DOCA said, you know, without being crude here, I said, I'm not going to get published in the scientific journal. That's just not going to happen, not a refereed scientific journal. He said, yes, you will, he said, if I have to help you write it, I will, and you will

be published. And this guy's an eminent professor, I mean, he's known worldwide. And I said, so. We talked for a while longer, and he said some other things that were rather stunning to me. I mean I was not prepared for his comments because generally scientists and others don't walk in and look at the UFO field and say anything really complimentary. And he said, he asked the question and were kind of a philosophical question. He says, what do you think of yourself? And I said, well, that's

what you mean? He said, well, he said, you did these surgeries. He said, I am stunned. He said, I am amazed and stunned. He said, and it took enormous courage for you to do that. And I said, how could I not do it? If that's what I do, it is the only logical and right thing to do. So I did. And I said, but we did surgeries long before the public ones. I said, people just don't know that. You know, I haven't told people that. But he said, well, anyway, I

want to know what you think of yourself. And I said, well, I said, I think of myself more. I guess it's like a pioneer. He said, what is a pioneer to you? I said, A pioneer someone who will go where others cannot go or won't go, or don't know how to go. And he sends back maps. He said, what kind of maps would those be. I said, well, sir, I said, they would be maps that scared men in academia. Could you without losing their careers? He giggled, and I said, I would like to

ask you a question, if you don't mind. He said, okay. I said, what do you think of me? He said, well, you're not a pioneer. I said, how's that. He said, well, there are four levels of civilization. Pioneer is the second level. He said, you're an explorer. That's the first level. He said, I don't mind telling you there aren't any explorers in the UFO field. You're the first one. And I said, well, he said, no, you're the first one, and that's old there is to it. He said,

now I'm in a position I think I can say that. So I'm I'm just my tongue's hanging out of my mouth. I didn't know what to say. It's well, you're very kind and everything, and so that was in that conversation. So his interest, his interest in a call, for the most part, was involved with the forests. He felt that that discovery, in his opinion, as one of the top people in his field, he felt that that was one of the greatest discoveries ever made in the entire uful

field and spoke to d Richard Hogland last year at Roswell. I speak at Roswell every year and host events there with for the Roswell Museum in and through

them. In fact, our work is on display there and in the circumstance Richard Hoagland and I had a long discussion with several other people of my friend of Mike Kaiser of Optics of Ancient Languages professor and others that were present, Pat Gray, my conference designer, and so on, and we all discussed the fluorescence issue and he he had some very strong views about what the fluorescence

might be. To him. It was he had these different views, and finally I questioned him, I said, well, what do you think this is really about? He said, I think the fluorescence was given to you. He said, I think it's a gift. I think it was placed there for you to find, and they knew you'd find it. I said, you basically, you feel like I'm being set up in a positive way and he said, he said, I think you've been blessed with this. I think you need to do something with it. And he said, I

think it's an energy signature. I said, well it isn't. It's not. It's a chemical signature, and it's not. He said, well, I think you're wrong, And I said, well, you don't have any evidence, and I do, so what do you think I think? So? I mean, this is just I said. If I'm wrong, I'll let you know. But right now, I said, I'm going to go with the chemical compound and we're going to stay with that until unless something else shows up. Differently, I said, and I hope you're right, but

I have no evidence to support that. The doctor was going to help you write the paper for the scientific journal. Did you move on and actually write that paper or haven't? I told the doctor. I said, well, sir, I said, you don't mind me saying this. I said, but we don't have enough information to write a paper. We have no real finds, we have no scientific validation. Yet we have anecdotal evidists. And he said, I understand that. He said, but Darrely, he said,

this is just incredible. I mean, people are talking about abductions in terms of being some psychological philomena or this that or whatever. He said, Here you are coming up with physical evidence that it's real physical touch in places these people describe, and in a coloration pattern that you know, And he said that you kept very quiet about. He said, you know that there's some kind of a pattern to this thing. There's the colors represent various things.

I said, well, it seems to represent different types of experiences, different type of things going on with people. So he was quite interested in that. And I don't feel at this point. And it's taken me thirty eight years to write my first book and I'm almost finished, so it's not like I'm in a big hurry. Right. How long ago was it that you first came across before us? Since I came across flores since in nineteen ninety two in a case working with a lady who she's actually a millionaire.

Her husband had just been incarcerated in the federal system for I don't know what his crimes were, white collar crimes, but she was an abductee and I spoke with her and worked with her several times, had my senior investigator working with her at first, and then he got to a point that some of her experiences were profound, to say the very least, and she was having a tough time with her experiences. In other words, let me give you

an example of how tough her experiences were. She would come to session with my senior investigator, Dale Musser, with her therapist. She would often get migraines from talking about this experience and would end up having to go emergency room. So Dale brought me in and the therapist was there, and I said, well, I said, down next to us. How do you feel? She said just fine? And I said, well, I'm a hypnotic anesthesia therapist. She's what does that mean. I said, you know those

horrible little headaches you've been having about these experiences. She says, yes, so I can make them go away. She just looked at me and teared up, and she says, you can do that. I said, sure, I can do all kinds of things. There is nothing they've done to you. They can't be undone. Well with this, we got talking and all of a sudden, she started describing one of the most horrific events I've ever heard in my life. It was so similar to the event that I

had when I was seven, and my last event was violent. I realized, this is the same guy. It's not any guy that shows up in the literature. And then she she said, I'm ugly. I said, well, you might not have looked in the mirror, late lead, but you're one of the prettiest women I've ever seen. There are very few women I've ever seen this pretty. And so there's not anybody, your therapist or anybody in this room doesn't believe that. She says, no, I'm ugly.

And apparently this entity one of the things he did was to contort her face in such way you like with electricity, if you ever had like something electronic hit you, it can contort your muscles in your face so horribly. And she started getting this migraine at this time, talking about it. And as she got this migraine, her face contorted, and the most ugly looking thing I've ever seen in my life. I mean, here's this beautiful woman

turning this. I mean it looked like some kind of witch. You knows. Well, that's the weirdest thing. And I mean, this therapist is sitting there freaking out anything like whatever that and they'll sit there with his eyes wide and everything. And I said, and she starts crying and everything, and her head starts killing her. And I said, you want me to make it go away, and she starts crying, she just please do and I said okay, and then so I did that, and then I showed

her how to remove these migraines herself. Well, needless to say, she was elated, and we never saw a therapist. A gin therapist didn't. Maybe therapist didn't come back because she's what what's going on. And the second reason is the fact that the lady said, you know, I can take care of this myself now I'm in control. So the therapist never came back. And I mean, you're able to solve her migraine issue, but the repeated abduction issue is that something that you were able to help her with.

Also, well, we've had people that have tried to have asked us to make their abduction stop, and that there is no real guarantee to anybody that you can make it stop. Just because my kind stopped. Maybe there's some hints there. My senior investigator in one of his subductions asked it because these aliens seemed to like him. I don't know why, but they he's very friendly and very he's not violent in any way, and he's they've abducted him

for all his life. And they seemed to be able to manipulate him or handle him very well, so to speak. And one day he said, why don't you ever abduct Dyyl anymore? And it's interesting he couldn't pronounce my name rot, but they could. And they said, Darryl is uncooperative. And that's all I'd say. It is interesting that hadn't been abducted in thirty some years, and they knew who I was. They knew exactly who he was talking about. These guys are all on the same database. Everybody says,

all are different, the grades are different. To Mantis is this and the Nordics are wonderful and these other guys are awful. They're all on the same team. We've seen all of them on the same ship at the same time. And the mass subductions in December eighth and December eleventh, nineteen ninety two, eight people abducted at the same time, same place, on two separate nights in December nineteen ninety two, and they all saw the same guys

all lined up. This is pretty good evidence that the theory that they're all separate groups out there doing their own thing doesn't hold a lot of water. With those particular seven entities that showed up on that craft. Getting back to the fluorescence, and I definitely want to hit more on what you're getting at

there. I have some more questions relating to that. If I want to wrap up the fluorescents stuff, what are your future plans you have plans to document the fluorescence or perhaps to immediately get an abductee into a hospital where they can get an actual analysis of what's going on with the fluorescence, or what are your plans that way and researching that or discovering more about it. Well,

we're doing a serious procedures. One of the things I did today for the Denver Moufon group here your group, was to pass out two documents which we have provided that allow it gives procedures for collecting evidence and for storing that evidence so that it can be analyzed. So the more cases we can get. Is I spoke to Ethan about this because he's one of my colleagues is

helping in this area here in Colorado. Rich rich Is Investigations, the investor investigat chief of your investigations here and a remarkably good man, and I've directed him a number of times on this field and will continue to do so. The issue is that florescence is not easily nor readily would not be readily analyzed in any kind of hospital setting. First of all, this type of evidence

is minuscule for the most part. Second, it has to be collected in a in a reasonably forensic type setting where it's not going to be contaminated, and most of the time that's not going to happen. And here there are these people who are well meaning and but don't know how to collect that evidence.

And often by the time you know it, it's gone. We've had two cases of fluorescence this week, and in fact, with the two ladies I visited down in her husband down in Arkansas this week before I did my CNN interview for two days, both of those people end up with fo US since on them after I left. So we're real curious to find out what

that's about. But our interest is to develop a system whereby and I'm attempting to get another university on board with us through this forensic v PhD. And if he comes on board and helps us out, I'm sure he'll point us the right direction where we can be. But we did have a PhD trying

to help us at the York University in Canada. The problem is his standards were so strict you practically would have to bring fly the person up and place them in front of him and allow him to do everything, and then it might not be enough. I mean it just standards was just so strict that it just made no sense. He didn't even want to see it unless it was under these austere perfect conditions. Well, that's just not going to happen

in most cases. I guess just to wrap up for us, since one other thing that I thought was really interesting is just that Phyllis Spuddinger, who you had mentioned. She spoke at our last symposium for moufon talking about the invisibility properties of UFOs some other people jose Eskami, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him. He does their rods work. He's lately been trying to he's gotten lots of footage where that's what he's doing. He's using infrared to

get UFO footage and supposedly he's found a lot of it. He's got a lot of great footage. He's just trying to find financing to get these into movie format. And then another real popular one Another person who was at last year's at Moufon symposium, David Serta, where he looks at NASA video where NASA has been doing filming in the infrared, and seeing just almost like soup,

just hundreds and thousands of things out there that NASA has gotten. I guess my last question would be, as far as the symbols that you see, the only other symbols really that are very popular that might be related to UFOs would be crop circles. Do you ever see any symbols that are similar to crop circles in any way? We've not seen any symbols of that nature on the abductees. There are a couple of reasons that may be true.

One is because the which is an opinion of my and based on some based on a lot of good evidence, and based on some of my colleagues who have done some excellent work in the crop circle business. And I've said this long before it ever became public under Colin Andrews, my friend who privately and now publicly admits that at least eighty percent of the crop circles are frauds. And we're not talking about the Dave and Doug stupidity we're talking about circles that

look remarkably good. And I've said this long before they did their study where he was paid to do this study and did an excellent work on it, that in fact, it was my view that the intelligence community was replicating those with microwaves and had been going on for some time. Of Course, people ask, well, why in the world would they do that. Well, because they know which ones are correct and real. Then they do a bunch of new ones. Now they know which one are and you don't have a

clue. Well, unfortunately a lot of UFO people, that doesn't matter. They're all real, right, and they take all these pictures, make these big conferences and say, look at the next one. You hear this, whoa, and you know at least eighty percent of them are just as big frauds you've ever seen. It doesn't make any difference. These people. They promote this stuff like it came out of burning bush or something, and it

didn't. That's really interesting because I thought you were going to go somewhere else with that. Ron Russell another great local researcher. He's on he's in the same area where he's thinking most of these things. In fact, he thinks the most spectacular are actually human made, although he thinks that to me by artists who do it all truistically. And he finds some interesting properties there. Simeon Hines's partner finds out also, but that's a very interesting theory to the

microwave theory. I hadn't heard that before. It would account for the way the nodules being popped and everything else. Just like these other people say, well, only a microwave could do that, I'm not arguing that point. I'm just telling you all you have to do is program in the right computer and aim your microwave there, and you can cook it. I'll give you an example of that. My friend, and you probably know him. Uh he's the he's uh called the uh biggest news guy in uphology in Mexico is

Jiman Massan. And he says, hey, d O, why don't you come down to Mexicota hunt the super cobras. And I said, well, I guess if I came down to hunt the supergabras, I said, uh, ohhimid be there his camera, wouldn't he. Yeah, he said it'd be a good team. You know, this would be a good thing for us. And I said, well, I said, first of all, you haven't proved to me the chup of cobbras what they are yet. There's something down there killing animals. But we hadn't proven mean what it is.

I said, but let's take the viewpoint that it's real and it's a animal that's run sucking the blood out. It's a goat sucker, like like the name means. Let's suppose that's true. He said, can you track you? Can you catch you? And I said, well, I can give him a radio isotope, lace it in his food supply, and then I can track you. I said, I'm a hundred that's what I do. The second thing, I said, if I can see him, I said, I've got a guy that's volunteer to give me a six foot microwave dish.

If I can see him, I can cook him. So I think I can get him. But you got to show to me, first of all where he's at and he's real. When you do that, I said, I'll bring some equipment down. We'll go Honting. I'm trying really hard not to because I love your mussan your impression there. Oh, Jim, he's a great guy. I just we've been friends for years. They're just they're just good. He's doing some just amazing work down there. Next,

I wanted to ask you about they came while you're sleeping. I wanted to talk to you about that's kind of your slogan. You have that on your website, lots of your talks and what you mean by that, And I think that's well, it's a metaphorical statement that first of all, that most people or a lot of people simply don't understand, don't even know what's going on. They're literally asleep to the phenomena. I think when they wake up,

they're going to be shocked a mace. And those who are when I talk to them, they're sitting there just wide eyed, like a calf looking at a new gate. I mean, they just like stunned, what is that thing there. The second thing is that it has another meaning to the abductee. They came while you slept, and it has another meaning to other people in the UFO field. The fact is they're still coming while we're while we're sleeping. My issue is that we need to be awake in every sense

of that word. And if we do that, I think that we have a good chance of catching at least one of them. The public in general being asleep with the whole issue. So I think they're asleep at the wheel. This is a bus that everybody's a passenger on, nobody knows where it's going. So I told doctor Leo Spinkle Sprinkles group when I spoke in the University of Wyoming several years ago, this is a great group of people. And I said, you know, this is this is really a kind of

a it's kind of a tough thing for me. I said, because you know, you guys have a different view about this thing. And he had just spoken and he was a really they just love him, you know, he speaks up there all the time. And I just simply told these people, I said, I'm kind of a nuts and bold sky. I flew up here on an airplane, was sitting over the wing, looked out and I checked every little nut both on that wing. I kind of like to

know that they're all in there. That might not matter some of you folks, but it sure does to me. And they all kind of laughed. Then afterward, I did my presentation and Leo Sprinkle walked up to me. He's a real tall guy, about six four sixty five real tall, still plays basketball there, amazing guy, and he gives me the biggest He stands there with the paper in his hand. I wonder what in the world he's

in his hand. And he looked at me, and he's got this paper in his hand, opens his arms and he said, Darryl, I'm so sorry. I said, well about what he said. I didn't know. He gives me the biggest hug and hands me this paper. He said, I really didn't know you. So I had this friend of mine who was pretty good at looking at a photograph and tell you all about somebody. He said. She wrote this whole thing about you. He says factually quite flattering,

he said, but I think she's right on target. I just wanted to give it to you, and so he did. We had several remarkable things happened that conference that were just pretty interesting. But Leo and I have differing views about the alien phenomena. To him, it's kind of like school, you know, first day at school or that sort of thing, and that's what we're in. And I assured him that after looking at showing,

I said, that's Leo. I can show you, you know, I can show you dead bodies and people rip apart and all kinds of things that don't suggest that's first day at school. If that's true, you're going to the Alien Columbine School or something, because that's not exactly the school I went to. And I said, in my events, I said, you know, I remember what happened, and I'm telling you it's not what you think it is. There's something else going on. And I said, I don't

say that they're not positive events. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that you may be missing. I said, you're saying that this is basically we're in a learning curve here and we just don't get it. I said doctor Mackfield same West spoke to him in Istanbul about that, and we disagreed about about that, and I gave them both my viewpoints, and both of them just sat there and they didn't have answers for some of the questions I

gave. I said, the simple point is that the answer they're here to save the planet, fixed Theozone hole and a few of these other things just isn't consistent with what they do. It's consistent with the philosophy that people want them to be like that. I think we all would like that. But the reality is, when somebody surgically removes your eyes, they're not here to

save your planet. They're here to get your eyes. You better be wondering about why they need that, Why are they doing that, and why doesn't it make any difference that they would repair somebody, they would leave them in that condition in a jungle, And I mean, that just is unconstable. If a human being did that, you'd have been prosecuted and put in jail for fifty years. Alien does it and it's like it's all okay, all you have to do is shave your head, be bald headed and have large

black eyes and everything's moral. There's something wrong with that kind of thinking in my view. Leo Sprinkle I love to death also, and I think that really getting into the field of abduction, You and Leo are a great place to start because you have differing opinions, but you have great points. Him being more on a philosophical maybe spiritual and you, like you said, being a nuts and Bold skuy And that's a good segue to what I was going

to get to next, being a nuts and Bolds guy. It seems as though you know and everything I've seen with hypnotherapists, not many touch on a big point of yours, which is the memory versus hallucinations. And it seems like a lot of hypnotherapists possibly could use a little uptraining on identifying those differences. And I was wondering if you could explain those differences and how you Well. I was on art Bell years ago and I came on Martin Bell program.

It had been third or fourth time I was on there, and I told Artis said, well, I want to address the hypnosis part tonight. And I said, and it's going to sound like I'm against him gnosis when I do this. And I said, You've got to understand. I'm a master hypnotherapist. That means I train and certify people in hypnotherapy. I'm a hypnotic anesthesia therapist that means I take people to surgery and work the hypnotic anesthesia

with them. And I said, I've many I've a certified medical hypnotherapists. I've got all kinds of certifications in this field for many years. I said, So I feel somewhat qualified to be able to talk about this to some degree. And the fact is I said, a lot of you people out there in the psychological field don't have a clue that you don't know the difference

between memory and recall. You just don't, I said. That's why, I said, it's amazing to me some of you psychologists are psychiatrists pick on these little hypnotists as if they're doing evil when they're taking the basic, same little course you took. What makes you think you're so hot because you've got a PhD and they don't. I said, you're missing the whole point.

And the way I can best accentuate that is that you people with the PhDs are getting sued in the multi million dollar suits for not knowing the difference between memory and recall. Somebody comes along and you work with them, and you figure out that they've had sexual abuse by their family, and then you go take all this to court, take their family to court, get their kids

to believe this stuff. Only to find out their family, who supposedly sexually abuse these people when they were children, maybe not worry even in the country when it happened, they were in France or something. You end up with egg on your face, getting sued for multimillions of dollars for destroying families believing in this stuff because you don't know the difference between how memory is actually encoded and how it's decoded. If you knew that, you know how the alien

does what he does. That's what it's about. How would you define the difference and how do you weed out the difference memory? To put this in a context that I think most people can kind of appreciate it in a practical way is And I did this with CNN the other night when they were at my home for two days, and they said, well, could you have been leading these people when you were doing hypnosis with them here in this session? And I said, well, first of all, I said, I

did a number of things. One thing I did was ask them about the weather, And I'll ask you the same question. You give me an answer if you can, what was the weather like from May thirteenth, nineteen seventy six. You don't have a clue, nobody does. But an abductee can tell you exactly what happened on the night he was abducted. They know exactly. Well, you can take that information back through the Weather Service and check it and see if they're accurate or not. In most cases they are,

they're very accurate. And when you realize that, then you realize that you're at least hitting on memory. From that point of view. The second thing is if a person's in hallucination, for like in the stage hypnosis, anything you suggest to them, in most cases they'll accept it and they'll do it. You're going to act like Elvis Presley, and they will. They're gonna make fool of themselves. That's what they signed up for. That they want

to do. It's fun. That's called hallucination. But when you get a person on the other sense of the word, you get a person two in memory, and I did in front of CNN, and I kept telling the abductee. I said, they said, I'm in this room, and I said, okay, how many corners are in the room. Well, anybody knows anything about abductions knows those rooms are not They're around, they're not square

at all. And I've already given the suggestion the room is square. If they're hallucinating, they're going to tell me two, three, or four, five corners whatever. They're going to tell me the corners in that room. And you will consistently get answers from reductees. They'll sit there stunned. They'll usually move their head looking around because they're in the room at the time, and they're flat telling you that there is none and I'll tell them, yes,

there are. You get in there and count those rooms, and they'll get mad and then we'll get in a big argument. Under hypnosis, these people are in memory. That's why they're angry. You ask them, what does alien's feet look like? And I haven't met that one person that actually knew the answered that question, which is curious, and most of them will tell you I can't see their feet, and that's why it's that just because

I'm lying on the table. Well, for hallucinating, you can see the feet or anything else you want to you just can make and just sit there and imagine it. But they don't do that. So that's These are just just a couple of indicators. Let you know that these people may in fact not be lying at all or hallucinating. And I'll give you another even better example, and this is going to kind of cut into some hypnotists in the UFO field. An individual academy, he's an engineers. In fact, he's

a member of organization. He's a nice guy, been a friend for years. He said, Well, darl he said, you know what I think you need to do is put these people behind a curtain, you know, mentally, so they can kind of look at their reductions not be afraid of it. I said, that sounds great. You know where'd you dream that up? They said, Well, that's why a lot of these hitting with the stew he said, I've read about them. I said, you feel

like that's appropriate. Well, of course it is. You're you're you're softening the blow, you're making this, you're doing that, and you're doing so on. I said, So if I take the abductee out of the event and put him over behind a curtain and let him look at it and kind of dissociate him, then he'll be a lot better. He said yeah. I said, okay. I said, that's a good idea. John. Let's talk about that for a minute. I said, let me ask you

a question. I said, we're in this restaurant here, Why don't you I said, don't you look out the window here and imagine yourself standing out there in park lot? And you do that? He said, Jessica can I said, pretty es do? I said, now, I'd like for you to imagine yourself and your body out there looking back at us. Can you do that? And he sug yes. I said, John, that's

called hallucination. You're not outside, you never were. How is it you think you can see us inside here from out there when you're sitting here? You see you've allowed yourself to hallucinate already in our discussion, and you even believe it, and you haven't been hypnotized at all. Yeah, I've been familiar with that technique and i've you know, like everyone else. Oh, what a great technique I've changed. It is a good technique. If the

technique is used to destroy memory, that's what it's used for. As a therapist. A therapist will use that technique to destroy, not enhance memory, but destroy it. When I read somebody of a phobia in twelve minutes of a snake phobia, as I showed you tonight in this presentation, this lady had snake Phobia's an abductee. The psychologist said it'd take two years of work with this woman to get rid of it. It was that severe. Well,

I'll show you a picture. We're whole a ball python in twelve minutes. How is that? I use that technique to destroy her memory of that serpent. Now, if people are using techniques like the dissociation is a technique used to not only it's not only desensitizes memory, it actually can't affect it and even destroy it. Now that woman has no fear of a snake at all, except a healthy fear to stay away from them. But it's normal.

But her fear before it was so severe that if she actually saw a worm she thought might have been a snake crawled under her door steal left her kid out in the car for quite a while until I got drove across Houston to get the kid out of the car because she wouldn't come back out of the house to even save her kid. Now that's talking, we're talking severe. I use some pretty powerful techniques to destroy her fear and memory of that of those snakes. In that way, that technique is used to destroy or

to aberate, at least aberate memory. Why would you be using a technique like that and call it enhancement, which makes perfect sense? Which great about knowledge is making you rethink the things you thought. Well, these techniques are good, They're very good. There are many techniques used to help people. They're called the sociate of techniques. They're wonderful techniques. We use them for therapy when I work for psychologists or psychiatrists who they allows me to work with

their patient. But one in particular, two psychiatrists from Tri County. It's a mental health mental retardation outfit, Williams in Williamson in Montgomery County, Texas. They sent a guy to me to work that had had severe problems with anxiety for fourteen years, been on medication fourteen years, and it's just it just broke his life. And he came in. First of all, he's crying and he said, you know, please help me, Please help me.

And I said, I can't do that because you know, I'm not I'm not a licensed psychologist, psychiatrist saint that I'm just hyping the therapist, blah blah blah, And I can't do that, and I wouldn't because I will not go around your prescribed program that you're under the medical care of these people. So that's I'm not able to do that. And that's the only way I could do that. You'd have to bring me back a letter saying

that they agree for me to do this. And of course I knew they'd never give a letter because it's it's a slap in face, says you can't take care of your patients. To my shock and amaze me, he came back the next day with a letter from both both the therapists saying you're welcome to work with him. Please use your hypnosis and ope or other techniques to help him out. So I said, well, come on in. What was I going to say? So I said, I have a seat,

and he said, okay. I also know that he's an abductee and he's hurting. That's part of his anxiety. I know that I know the guy. I'm known him for years and so long story short is, I said, I'm going to show you something. A technique that I've learned. Cost me five thousand dollars to learn it. It's so new you're psychologists and psychiatrists are not going to have a clue because they're not going to pay five thousand

dollars to go learn new technology. They're not going to do it. Ten years, it'll filter down and they'll get it and then they'll probably rename it and claim it was theirs. That's the fact is, we've been using it for years. I said, I tried to keep myself up on some of the latest things out. I said, what I'm going to do with you today is called timeline therapy, I said, in which we have it's well, how many sessions you think this will take? That's what you mean?

He said, well, does this take a year or twur I said no, you don't understand. You have one hour then, but then we'll come in fourteen years. I don't care about their failures, and my work has never been based on how well other people fail. I could care less, I said, I want you to sit down and follow my instructions. If you're stupid, it's going to take an hour. If you're smart, we'll be done in twenty minutes. If you just want to practice, we'll be

done in thirty. Are you ready, yes, sir, have a seat. In fifteen minutes, we were done. He broke down and cried. He said, I can't believe I can get rid of my own anxiety all by myself. He cried like a baby. The point is that these techniques are powerful, but the altra memory sometimes destroy it, sometimes just alter it. I don't want somebody retrieving memory for me using techniques that alter my memory. Because I'm not in my body at the time. I'm not there.

I'm not in the event. I'm watching the event. If you're watching the event, you're not in the event. Are you by definition nature that you are in fact associated? So you have a lot of clients thousands, I believe you referred a thousand abductees worldwide that we've worked with and have records on and so on various different things, and also have I work with people.

I've worked in a hypnotherapy clinic for about THU guess close to five years, so I've worked with just about everybody for everything from amputees, screaming on morphine to you name it. I mean, every kind of problem you can even probably imagine came through that office that I've worked with. So I have a good, a good working knowledge about working with these people on various levels. With your experience with abductees, what's your overall feeling of the nature of the

abduction phenomena? I know that's hard to well. I think was maybe a more simplistic way, but I think it would be a kind of a clear way to explain the abduction phenomena is think of yourself a contact first of all, the abduction phenomenon. The abduction means just exactly what it says. You're taken without your will. That's abduction, that is kidnapping. It's what it is. That's all there is to it. Now. In the abduction experience,

you generally will come out with one of two views. The first view is that I was taken against my will. I didn't like it, it was wrong and mora old whatever. These people are often referred to as abductees. You have another group of people which feel like they were taken, probably against their will, but it doesn't matter. It's probably for my best good.

They know better than me, and they kind of abrogate their freedom, their free choice to somebody who abducts them, and they say things like, well, they probably know better than us, and they're just helping us. They're here to save the planet, fixios on hole or help me do some great thing. I'm just in grade one of their program, and that's okay. People can believe anything you want to. It's not a problem when I look at that situation. I look at it, and I can give you

a glaring example of this. To Charlie Hickson Calvin Parker case, these two and I know this case, and I've interviewed both of them. I know it very well. These two were off duty, they say the original stories they were off duty cops. They weren't off due, they were on duty. They were out there making a drug bus, that's what it was, UFO Lands. They end up getting taken. One of them, Calvin Parker, comes off that craft with a cut across his stomach. His blood is

his jeans are soaked down to the knees with blood. He comes off the craft. An abductee. Charlie Hickson comes off the craft with his glowing looking little face saying, you know, basically, you know whoa. Here are two people, two cops, in the same event, and they come off two different people in the event. That's pretty amazing to me. You can characterize this this way. Think of it as two lab rats, one little lab rat like Charlie Hickson, you know. The genetic engineer says, okay,

roll over, and the little lab rat rolls over. Stand up. The little labrat, stand up. That's so cute. Me takes the needle, goes and sticks him anyway and says, that's okay. You won't remember, although you do feel the pain and impact as you do. Remember, I don't care what they say, and so you get the same shot anyway. Then all of a sudden, you put this little guy down. Oh

that's good, we're gonna get him again. And you go back to a little labratt over and you reach over this lab rat and then bite you. That one's the darre old lab rat. He'll bite the fire out of you. He will not cooperate. And you pick him up by the tail and you sling him around and he keeps trying to bite it and he won't cooperate, and you say you will remember, and you give him a shot anyway. Hey like that little guy, and then throw him across the But step

fact is it does make any difference what viewpoints you take. You're still a labrath. It really doesn't make any difference what you want to think about it. It's more comfortable to think that it was, you know, a higher view and higher calling that it was. But I seriously doubt that you being on the slab, me being on another slab makes any real difference in your

reference area. Your example, you kind of hit on some ideas of morality at least that that, Oh, don't worry you're not going to remember this anyway, which I always thought was weird, even with Betty Hill, where she's like, yeah, I'm going to remember this. No you're not. Yes I am. No, you're not. Yes, I amn't sure enough she remembered. But it indicates some sort of morality. Do you see any sort of imral? The alien lies, they prevaricate, they lie, they

used subterfuge. There is absolutely no question about Literature's wife with it. Excuse me. It does make any difference what anybody says. It's crystal clear. I've seen them give eight different stories to eight different abductees on the same craft, same time. About the eight different screen memories of what really happened, Well, I used to be a police officer. If there are eight people in the middle of a crime and I asked you all the same question,

where were you or what were you doing? And you're all in the same room, and you give me eight different stories, at least seven of you are going to jail. That's call lying to a police officer. It didn't happen eight different The guide murdered eight different ways. It happened one way, and seven of you are lying, and maybe eight but you're going to get all of them, are going downtown, every one of them until you find out exactly what's going on. Well, the alien does, it's all time,

and people do seem to just almost ignore it. Well, they said they were from planet band Lawn. Is that a deodorant or something? I mean, that doesn't make any sense. I'm data reticulate. Well that's where you are this week. Where are you are next week? Well, we're on the other side of the moon. Okay, we're from Mars. Now we're from men or Earth. Now we're from another dimension. Well, why don't you make up your mind? Why don't you give us an address?

Now these people come out and say, oh, I'm channeling these aliens. They're giving me this great information. Hey, anybody out there channeling aliens, you got the big secrets? You got you know what, the big one. I would be more than happy for you to answer my famous ten questions. Let me give you a hint. Don't try it. So I'm telling you what if you're really plugged into the alien. First of all, the

real alien won't give you the answers anyway. And if you do get ten answers, and they're going to be wrong if I can tell you, because you're not going to know the answers to them. I know that coming from your own subconscious and you're just accessing your own brain coming up with your own answers. And you're not gonna have right answers because you don't know the next

three elements. They're going to show up on a periodic chart. You don't know what the alien does, but you don't know that, so you got to come up with the goods if you claim this, so you see the whole thing as malicious. I see the whole thing as subterfuge. I see this business as for what it is. I used to be in the intelligence business. Whenever I went into the Central Intelligence Stacy for two years during the covert in covert opice during the Vietnam War, I was stunned to see the

training I got was identical to what was going on with the alien. Now, in the intelligence business, we lied for two reasons. One is because it would expose what we were doing. So you can't tell the truth about that. What are you all doing today, Oh we're gonna do just do the takeover, nick Rogwa or something. You used to go out and tell everybody that you can't do it. The nature of your business a dictate. You can't same thing with the alien. They're not going to tell you what

the truth is, what they're up to. Why do you think they haven't done that in thirty fifty one hundred one thousand years because they're not going to tell you. Well, that makes an intelligence sin and what we need to do at that points counterintelligence. Second reason we lied in the Central Intelligence Agency and they're doing any intelligence agency. I don't care if it's a MOSAD,

I don't care what it is KGB, it doesn't matter. The answer is that when we lied simply because we couldn't tell you because it would compromise what we were doing. And second, we lied simply because you cannot give out this kind of information and allow it to be you either use against you. And when we would also give it also false information or misinformation or disinformation.

This is part of the nature. When when I found the alien was doing the same thing, well duh does it take a genius to figure out that this is an intelligence operation that's going on? I mean, aliens from another planet are here to save our planet, but they won't tell us anything. They'll they'll pull your eyeballs out of your head, and do this, and do that, kill a couple of kids, occasionally a bunch of cattle,

won't tell you a thing, and they're going to save your planet. Why do I not believe that they tortured and mutilated and did horrible things to the Amazonian based Indians for over ten years. One of US's most well documented cases. Jaques Vallet says, Bob Pratt's book and his work is the finest field work he's ever seen. That's the way field work is supposed to be done. Unbelievable, horrific stories done are for years against the Amazonian tribal Indians.

They're helping the universe by torturing Indians. That sounds like something on in the United States a long time ago. Why do I not believe that story? And you have a case where a couple of children were actually died, They actually died of results of their reductions, right in Dellas, Texas. So to me, this sort of thing doesn't It doesn't lend itself to a morality, we understand, but it does it lends itself to something to me at

this amoral at best. And I suspect that the people that are entities that are doing this, the Grays and the other guys and so on. The Nordics, who did You've got one Nordic that treated Dale Musterr so good and so kind in the mass subduction. It was just moving to listen to the story. It really was. That same Nordic overheard another one of my abductees laughing about the implant he hid for twenty two years that they couldn't find,

and the Nordic looked over and hurt him thinking. A few days later, Nordick showed up and tortured that man until he thought he gave him the information on where that implant was. I was involved in that case the day had happened. I know what I'm talking about. Same Nordic didn't make a bit of difference. They don't care whether they torture you or make you love. It doesn't make a bit of difference. They're there to do their job.

They don't care whether it means cutting your eyeballs out or cutting the utter off of a cow, live or dead. It doesn't make a bit of difference them because they have no morals. They just do what they do. The real issue if there's a moral issue. You have a moral issue with alien You're going to have to deal with mid level management because that's where the orders

are coming from. These guys are just doing their Wow. I was trying to lead you to that very thing, the mid level management, and I thought I had failed, but luckily had the last you went there, and I guess just that theory of you know, and you heard a lot of the the worker bees and then the mid the higher ups who actually are directing thing. Higher ups usually don't come and get involved. If I don't know, if every seat shows this where unless something goes very wrong, they don't

get involved. It's usually well. In my upcoming book, it covers a chapter I'm finishing up right now. It's called Hierarchy, and it takes a vastly different view than the UFO field does about the aliens. Basically, there is a thing I call the usual suspects, which I have a lineup of these entities very different. Introduce a small grade, the large, larger grade nord aches and the Mansa's being and all these other things, and that's the

lineup. And most people in the UFO you'll feel like that those are in fact the major players and they're calling the shots and doing all that. Well, they're not. They're they're on the lowest rung of the food chain. And even inside their group, it go It din't a grade, so I mean, it just goes down the toilet, so to speak. Little grazers there, you have to think of them as a two eighty six computer with

legs, because they just don't have clue. If you do things in your induction, they're outside the purview of what they're trained or or that data input is for in their brain. If they have one, what you're what you're going to find is that they can't deal with it. They don't know what to do, and it really confuses them. They'll they'll they'll break up the abduction. You want to break up an abduction. You want to stop an

abduction. Do things that are not consistent with that with his abilities, and they freak out, they don't know what to do. They'll go back and usually they'll come back with help. The next time they show up. Their little gray doctor boss will show up with him and he knows what to do.

He's pretty sharp. He'll and if he can't fix your problem, if there is a problem, then they'll send what they call is a mid His job is to make sure that your pro hit, whatever the problem is in the business, is solved, and they're very effective about what they do. If they send two MIBs, you're in trouble. So a mid men in black is that what you're getting in? It's something in black for sure. If they dress in nineteen fifty seven fifties clothes American style, even if they're

seen in Slovakia, it doesn't matter. It's stunned the Slovakians when they solve them. Why do they dress in these old like detective type clothes with a strange little hat and everything like it's on American TV in the fifties. It's just because what they do. I said, they have a real clothing problem. They just haven't been able to update their clothing in quite a while. You have to excuse them for that. But why don't they dress Slovakian if

they're trying to, you know, do this stuff to us. It's just a good point. But I just I don't think they care. But I don't think they think you can do a thing about it anyway, And it doesn't make it difference when you get it or hear it or remember it or not. MIV does not give a hoot one way or the other, whether you remember or not. Now the alien does, But the MIV doesn't care anything. He's just going to straighten out your He's going to clean your clock,

straighten out your problems. I've heard of I read about experiences where someone has witnessed a couple of MIBs around an old, you know style sixties you know, star skinning hutch kind of car grade out or whatever, and then the car disappears. They turn around and it's gone. Have you had any

experiences or had anybody come to you with situations. We had one case in Houston, Texas where a lady, very credible lady, was approached by a female alien with a blonde hair bouffont style and it's alien, what pure white faced alien type on if you imagine alien with a fake wig on, because that's exactly what it was, driving a Ford, a little Ford escort, and it would follow this woman every day to work for six weeks at five

days a week. And then she just said, I never saw it, never saw it on weekends, said it always showed up right next to me or behind me. Or right in front of me. She said that was the weirdest thing I ever saw. It said, I'd leave to go to work, and I'd come back, get on the freeway, come back home, and there'd be again. Went on for six weeks. I stayed this case very carefully. My senior investigator said this, He said, Darryl, and he's an abductee. He said, she's making it up, she's hallucinating,

she doesn't know what she's talking about. He said, I don't believe a word of this thing. And I said, Dale, she's telling the truth and that's all there is to it. He said, well, I think you're wrong. I said, okay. So anyway, this lady, in her last one of her experiences, I actually had to read the license plate off to me and I ran the plates on it, and the plates

were stolen out of Dallas, and the car actually disappeared one time. What was interesting is that her parents came down, who do not know anything about her abductions for thirty years. They're helping her fix her house because she's going to sell it for long and her daddy was going to help her put up

a couple of boards and nice little things for old fellow to do. And the long and the short of that was simply that this lady, the alien creature or whatever it is with the buffont hair style, shows up and starts moving toward the driving toward her. They're at the home depot out in the middle. They're loading up their little amount of wood and so on, and this strange looking woman in this Redford escort comes driving by slow motion, real

slow and just looks at them. And she said, I was so mortified, because I mean, how how are you gonna explain that to your parents? And she said her mother looked at her and said, oh, my god, did you see that woman. She's the whitest skin I've ever seen on human beings, skinny and frail, like she's gonna die. She said, I didn't know. I said, I've told him I didn't see anything, and I just had to like it. I didn't want to talk about

it. She said, my parents saw it. Well. Interestingly enough, Dale, who did not believe a word of this, His wife a few nights later asked him to go get some milk at the store. So he goes, gets milk and bread, walks out of the store and sees his black fellow and hanging halfway out of his car. He thinks, well, as that is the guy dead, is he hurt? Is he injured?

He's he had heart attack? What's going on? Dale kind of walks toward the guy, and all of a sudden, the guy wakes up and goes look at and he realizes something's wrong, jumps the car and you know, shuts the door. He gets these cars starts to race off and just he starts to back up and everything. The notices somebody in the back seat with a yellow buffont hair, pure white face, and he's, oh my god. The reason he's really freaked out about this is because this is the this

is the this is the same car. He recognizes it from being there the night and in the interview. Well, he jumps in his pickup, takes off after it, and they getting a big road race right down the street. And uh, finally, the car races right through a red light that's already started to change, and so cars are starting to come and Dale slams on his brakes and just slides almost into the intersection, missing cars, and

the car goes on through. It gets through, and also this little head sticks up in the back seat where the black guy's driving the car with that little bouffont hair and just looks back at Dale. He said, my god, he said, a woman's telling the truth all along. I said, I told you I know when they're hallucinating and when they're not. Dale he said, Darling, I'm so sorry, said I should have believed it.

I said, it didn't matter if you believe me or not. My work's not based upon anybody's belief I don't care about beliefs, care about what actually is. Would you describe this lady and these other end might be as a mid level management? No, what would What are the characteristics that you would say of mid levels? I've never really discussed that with anybody. The reason is because some of it will be discussed in the in the book. But

the fact is that mid level management is the one that makes decisions. They they I'll give you an example in the mass subduction December eighth, nineteen ninety two. The double mass subduction on December eighth and December eleventh, eleventh set eight people taking at the same time, same place, same event, or an astounding set of events occurred. They were taken to a from regular little

craft. They were taken out to a huge craft reportedly fifty miles sticking six hundred miles across, which I did not believe the stat story myself, that part of it, until Dale showed me a film of it filmed by a Japanese astronomer of that apparently that possibly that craft, because at the same time that the abduction events were going on, they got the film and brought it over to me and showed me, and I just was stunned listening to him

and looking at the film. H I had given a post it not a suggestion to the woman, the woman that actually was involved in this car incident I just mentioned. And what I was trying to do is get the alien to respond to us, see if I could trap them in a response.

And because I found a piece of information and an abductee that I felt was harmful to them, if they were acting like an intelligence group, I think we struck paid We struck pay dirt because the fact they did respond, they responded to post it notice suggestion I gave her with that information, and I installed it not as her memory but as someone else's. But how would you

get the information if it's not your memory? And they know that you don't know the information because they and he wasn't supposed to know it either, But how did you get it when you weren't there? So I knew they were going to be real befuddled about this old thing. If it came off right,

Well, she gets up and burns out the information. They end up abducting eight of her people, include my senior investigator, because if you want to know what I'm doing, you would pick him up obviously, if you're not going to get me well on the problem is Dale didn't have clue because I never told him. He's an Abducteeve. Why would I be telling him things I was doing against the alien? I mean, that's like ringing the

dinner bell for them, you know. So I didn't tell him. And there were two beings that showed up on that craft, and all the little aliens that night were very afraid, all of them, all the entities, Nordics, all of them were terrified. Somebody big was on board the craft and there weren't going to be any mistakes this time, whatever that means.

And Dale and this woman both were called in by what I referred to as mid level management and guy sitting in his chair her room and in his room, and all these entities are lined up on one side and Dale and this guy asks a question. When he asks a question, he doesn't ask it twice. They don't understand anything other than blind obedience and fear. And whenever Dale Dale, they were asked, he asked the question. He said, why is why is he doing this? Speaking of me? Dale looked around,

What what are you talking about? I mean, this guy he got ballistic when he asked a question. You, I mean, you're you can imagine somebody being in an ultimate power, so to speak over over slaves. And that's about the way it was. It was looked, it looked like and he demanded to know the answer. And finally, after the second question, Dale didn't know the answers to it, and this guy went ballistic again. All of a sudden, the Nordic walks over realizes he needs to diffuse

the situation. He goes over and grabs Dale's face with his hands side side on his face, puts his forehead next to Dale's forehead, looks into Dale's eyes and looks back at the guy sitting in a big chair and says he doesn't know. Then the guy got calm because he realized Dale didn't know at that point, but he wasn't going to accept Dale's answer for that. In the other room, they were asking this lady the same questions another guy was

and the last two questions asked were rather interesting. Each one asked two separate questions. They produced a holographic image of her brain and asked Dale to point at the human soul, and Dale said, well, no one's ever been able to find the soul specifically, and that the guy went ballistic again. The screen datings pointed to where the human soul is. He didn't know.

He doesn't have a clue. In the other room, they were asking her the same question, but it wasn't a computer generated brain in a hologram form. It was on a screen in her case, and she said they wanted to know where he the spirit was. I told him I had no idea,

and they didn't like that answer at all. So, like I said, middle level management doesn't know all, see, all do all, so to speak, but they do give they call the shots, and whenever they do, you can see if he gets that upset over little things like that. And these little guys are all afraid of this guy. You can just imagine what kind of orders they're given, and it brings it brings up all kinds of imagery that is not positive. And I spoke to a group of

scientists in Tampa, Florida, and these people are well to do. One guy staying there at his home was worth I know, personally, fifty two million dollars. I know that he's worth a lot more than that, but that's what I did know that he was worth. Most of the people in that room are worth fortune. And I was working with a lady in the the room, some therapist, and she said she has some issue she wanted

me to work on, and so I did. When I finished, walked out and she walked out, and they said, could you speak to us please? And I said, I don't really think you people would want me to give you my viewpoint. I said, you're pretty much of a pretty much of a new age view that you know, you kind of feel like these entities are kind of misunderstood and we don't get it and this is like first day of school and you know, and all this sort of thing.

And I said, I really can't contribute to that kind of thinking, so I'd just be better. You know, you just felt the way you felt and thought the way you thought. And I'll just sit here and you know, drink my doctor pepper and need a cookie or something. You know. They said, no, we really want to know what you think. Now you really don't. He said, yes, we do. He said, you're not going to offend anybody here, real smart bunch of people, nice

people. And I said, I gave them several metaphors that they were just I mean, they were just what you could hurt a pin drop in that room on the car. And the last thing I told them. They said, we'd like to know what happened to you in your last event. And I said, I've never told anybody that. He said, would you tell us? And I said, no, I won't. I said, I will give you a metaphor, because metaphors are full of meaning and they can

give you a lot more information than even facts. Which would you do that, I said, I'd be glad to. I said, imagine, if you will, a beautiful set of green hills, beautiful beautiful range, enter's cows all over the range. I mean, it's just it's cow's paradise, more grass than you can eat. I mean, it's just incredible and out among the cows as Cow two thirteen and Caw two thirteen just got there,

and he doesn't have clue. And all of a sudden, one day, while they're out there talking and doing their little cow things, here comes this little short guy with large bug eyes with his little milk bucket, walking toward a cow. And Cow Too thirteen looks still the cow and says, who's that? And he said, well, that's the milkman. H huh, ones he do he milks cows. H where's he work at the milk factory? Uh? Okay, cow gets milked, He little man goes away.

This happens from time to time. One day it's Cow Too thirteen's turn. Here comes the milkman. He's got his little bucket. He starts walking towards Kow two thirteen. Kow two thirteen says, hey, hey, hey, what do you think you're doing. I'm the milkman. You have to let me milk you. I don't think so, oh you have to. You're a cow. I'm the milkman. Uh huh, it ain't gonna happen, buddy. And so a little milkman's all confused and upset. He goes back

to milk factory. When he gets the milk factory, he tells the committee that he wasn't able to milk cow to thirteen. And I said, well, go tell him you love him. It works on all the other cows. So here comes the milkman. Cow two thirteen says, hey, what do you think you're doing? I love you. You are wonderful, you are special and chosen. You are one of us. Uh huh. Beat it didn't work. Little man goes back to the milk factor says, hey, cow two thirteen won't cooperate. They said, then scare him. It

works on the rest of them. You get the milk. He goes back, and a cow two thirteen kicks little milk man back down the hill. Little milkman goes back all scuffed up, dirt all over Himan, his little milk bucket full of dirt, and look what he did to me. And they said, well, that's that's a mess. I said, So it got worse, and the engineer looked at me and who was leading the group, and said, what happened? I said, they sent the butcher.

I think you can imagine the rest this, So don't tell me about aliens here to save my planet. I said, you weren't there, and you don't know. You're sitting here surmizing a bunch of stuff that you don't have clue about, not even close, it feels. I guess the whole subject is strange because that story it really makes me smile most of the time, and then I feel kind of self conscious about it because it's a traumatic thing. But of course, you know, you're able to get across your point

in this metaphor. I think in a you know, very entertaining way. Like I called it earlier. I think you're here, your Texan charms, you know, shine through. But like you said, you know, that metaphor says a lot. And to find out more about mid level management, you have to wait for the upcoming book, huh. I guess so yep, Well, well, of course you maybe we can in a range of meeting and maybe you can have your own Butcher, well, that is okay.

A lot of people don't don't know. They don't recognize what is up in the next level. It is not a higher level of what's down beneath. The guys down beneath are bad enough inasmuch as they like I said, the Nordic will torture you one minute, or treat you so good that you'll just nearly cry. It really doesn't matter. It's what is effective, it's what works on you. It's called intelligence. We did that all the time. If you're a true, honest to goodness field. They're actually called kasaws

earn any real. A CIA agent is not a person who works in the CIA. It's a person who works for the CIA. In other words, you've been hired by them. You're not part of them, but you work for them. That would make you a CIA agent. A CIA agent is not one of the spies, so to speak. He's called a case officer. I don't know. White people don't understand this. They think you know all about c They don't have a clue. A case officer is the guy who would hire you to become a CIA h You now become an agent of

the CIA. You're not in the CIA, but you're an agent of it. So this sort of thing is it gives you a little sense of how the intelligence community works. And the fact is that the way the way it works for you to be a case officer to gather intelligence in another And they asked me if I would be interested in come and stay in the in the company, and I told them I would not. I said, I can't

do that to other people. Basically, what being a field case officer is is getting in most cases, if you're going to do seven stuff, it's basically getting people to betray their country. And I can give you all kinds of illustrations of how that works and how it does work. My point is that's the purpose. I don't think there's a whole lot of difference to Dailien. I've had people literally tell me that they knew certain things about alien.

They were horrified what they found out accidentally, and they would not They begged me not to even force them to tell them because they felt they'd be betraying the alien. I said, but they're not us, I know, but I feel I have to protect them to I said, but if a human race is at risk, if they were, I'm not saying they are, but if they were, and it doesn't matter to you. No, it sounded like somebody's brainwashed a little bit here. Hey, we're your species,

you know, get your head screwed on. If there's information out there we need to know, we kind of need to know that. You know, you don't need to be hiding that from the rest of us. And that's just as criminals as it gets. You know, you're you're talking about dealing against humanity here. You know, we're not supposed to know anything, so you can allow them to continue to do what they do, and you know that's not They're not up to any good. I mean, this is just

absolutely insane to me. But that's what a case officer does. He gets people to betray. And I've seen this, not with all abductees, but several abductees who actually found out information they felt was really dangerous that for the alien if it got out about them, and they flat told me face. One of is Corpus Christie, Texas. She cried, she's please, don't make me tell you what I know. I see. Even if it would help us and might even help save us in somewhere or do something like that,

she doesn't matter. I don't want to betray them, man, that's just weird stuff. This all gets kind of into motive, at least with the intelligence and the subterfuge, So getting further into motive if you were to speculate, and maybe you don't even want to speculate or but do you have any speculations towards then what the motive is behind this subterfuge. And we could

obviously sit here for hours and go through all kinds of possibilities there. But the fact is that when they finished with an abductee, and they especially if they come into the contact him until the basically a lot of contactees have a very interesting view about the alien and how they're here to save us and fix

the planet or whatever. Both of these it seems to me that realistically, both of you, the abductee and the contact e, may be just viewpoints provided by the alien just to keep you arguing with them on a lateral level, arguing with each other. Well, if you've missed the whole point, both systems, both ideas as, you ought to have been focusing on the one that created the problem begin with. Einstein says that whatever whoever created the

problem can't solve it. We didn't create the problem. I think we can solve it. The alien created it, and I don't think he can solve it. That's a very interesting perspective. Did you have anything more to say, motive Wiser, I'll leave that to your imagination. Wait for the book. I didn't think you would even go that far. I didn't think you. I thought you're gonna tell me a guy. You're you're, you're,

You've made my stay here wonderful. My conference designer think that you and and Carolyn have done a tremendous job, and you in particular, and so I'm perfectly willing to uh give out more than I would in a regular interview. Well and to be honest, you know, my perspective I try to face this, especially with UFO Think Tank and a more objective. You know, I'm trying to get information and everybody to share because everybody has some important things.

And my perspective tends to be, you know, more on the site sometimes of the altruistic in the and there. But you know what's wonderful about meeting you know, just varied in many great minds in this field, is to hear all of this this information and data and you know this isn't stuff that you came up with out of nowhere. You have a lot of research that was done and I think that's what's great for us all to share and open our minds to and like you said, you know, if they're trying

to pin us against each other. If we talk to each other, and we can talk to each other civilly and instead of fighting against you know those basics and move on. I think that'll move us somewhere. And some of the things that you've done, I think, like you talked about with trying to get an effect with them is very interesting because it sounds like you've been successful. Like you talked about an experience with a lady who you asked her

to bring back Breddy Krueger's hat. In this case, the lady came to me in tears, crying, and there was a hypno therapist I was training at the time. It was nearline pilot who the best way to characterize him is not cold, just clinical. I mean, you're not going to find him crying over anything. He was nearly in tears listening to her. Please please help me. They said, they're coming after my children if I give you any more information, and she cried and cried and cried. I said,

do you think they're going to get your children anyway? She says yes. I said, then the threat is simply veiled. It doesn't mean anything because they've probably already done it anyway. If your kids are abductees, they are anyway. If they're not, there won't be. They choose who they will. That's my point is that the reason I don't want to help you, in one sense of the word, is because you're a bigger lab rap

for me than you are for them. I said, I'm getting more data and better information from you than I have in all of my abductees at one time. That's how good your stuff is. I said. On the other hand, based on my humanity, I said, I have to help you because you've asked. As most people don't have presence of mind enough to me to even ask for help. They're so busy whining about their problem or glorifying the alien in such a way they don't realize there is a problem that.

I said, since you've asked, i'll help you. But I want something from you. She said, what's that. I said, I want Freddy's Krueger's hat. I want you to bring his hat back through the dream. That's because I know your events are real. You'll never convince most people of that until we can get Freddy Krueger's hat. She's what you want, And I said, you want to do this program? She SyES this in sleep that she just fell over, and then I installed a post hypnotic suggestion to

assault her captor. She assaulted her captor and tore half his eye cover off. Amazingly enough, noticed that it wasn't part of his eye, and which we've known for a long time. Later, she was not a very strong woman, so I installed strength in her, and the next time she physically put her left arm around the entity, so she captured him, and then she reached up and grabbed the entire eye cover and tore the whole thing off. This time, I wanted to bring the I cover back Freddy Krueger's hat,

so to speak. You know, if you think you've had a dream, it's a wild dream and all that, and you bring back an IE cover, it tends to indicate that that dream might not have been just a dream. So at this point she got the IE cover off, and I asked her a number of questions, like is is he in pain? She says, no, it's not pain at all. He's not even wiggling or

trying to get away, which indicated he probably was biomechanical. And interestingly enough, several other things happened, one of which Astor described the eye what was under the eye cover, and she described his red sipple screen with these white lines running back and forth across the eye. Well, that was very telling, again indicating the possibility of a biomechanical device or something connecting to him. And so, as I said before, when these little you do things,

these little guys can't comprehend or outside their purview, they'll bring help. This time the doctor type, which looks just liking but he's a little taller usually and he's a lot smarter. They brought three little entities and him, and they brought a little doctor type. He came and as soon as she was tearing ie cover off, the little guys are over trying to get the thing out of out of her hand. One of them was on each finger and

they couldn't get her hand pride open. Finally, this doctor type walks over with this little device that kind of looks like earphones, put them on her head and she just tranced out instantly in her hand finally opened and he just grabbed the eye cover and walked off with it. So we didn't get it. The fact is that she feels that she actually did get the eye cover, and she felt I should fail. She said, I feel like I've

betrayed you because it was obviously didn't bring the cover back. She didn't know this herself in her conscious mind, and it was really funny and amazing how that whole thing went down. But she's done some pretty incredible things. She passed away this year. Her name is Linda Taylor, a wonderful lady, and I just God bless her and God rest her soul for helping us.

She was a wonderful woman who helped us gather evidence, had a profound love for her family and her children and did not want them abused or taken any more like she was. And her husband's also an abductee. He's still alive today and still in contact with me. Her children, her daughter is still in contact with me, an abductee as well. And I've worked with that

family for over ten years and wonderful people. But the fact is that these people have already been through the mill and drug through a not hole backwards, so to speak, and they're really tired of it, and there is no if you hear it from their perspective. I don't know if you've ever talked to doctor Carla Turner but if you sit and tell her things like this, how positive the alien probably could be, and we just don't get it,

that woman will tear your head off in anger. Her husband will lift up his shirt and show you the claw marks for this reptiles torn him apart. And then they'll look at you and ask do you think any part of that was positive? And they don't usually say that in a real nice way. But she was live. I mean a lot of people kind of feared that little gal, a little, tiny type, and she's one of my abductees and I just loved her a lot. She's a wonderful, wonderful lady.

And her husband, Elton was They've just got scars and battle scars on them from their events. And I'll tell you you will never convince them, not in the slightest. They'll ask you for your mentally ill and suggest you get on your meds and get a counselor or something. You obviously don't have a clue. They have no kind words whatsoever for anyone who has a differing opinion based on their experience. Of course, it's their experience they're looking at.

But anyway, there's some people gone through some pretty tough things. Then the tailors have been through this like that, and she passed away this year, but she was she was my spy, so to speak. She was in the field getting evidence well. And to end, I want to ask just a couple more questions out they're sure just on euphology, but to end that whole abduction thing and try to end it on a good note. You did mention that you have ran across and abduction experience angelic type creatures. Yes,

that's an amazing sun. I'm glad you brought it up, Lejandro. The rare cases where an angel will show up very rare in an abduction, the alien takes off ninety miles an hour in the other direction as fast as they can. They scatter like scared little chicks. It makes one wonder why would you fear an angel. It's obvious you're not on the same side. Do you believe these angels are aliens or something else? No, there's no question

the angels are not alien. The issue is based on everything we know from these rare cases where these events have happened, And I have to tell you that we've got some really good cases where they've where this has happened. I know these people personally, I know their integrity. I know a lot about the case. I'm not saying here. I'm simply telling you that the alien is terrified of an angel. Aliens are not terrified of aliens. There's something

so radically different about this, about an angelic presence. And in fact, in the famous Calvin Parker case, I told you about him coming off to the craft with his stomach cut and how he assaulted his captor and all this, and and then Charlie Hickson coming off the craft, you know, thinking he's like he's glowing so to speak, you know, and so on, And I can tell you a lot more about even that case where Charlie Hickson's

story doesn't bear out at all. I know I question him, and I tell you would not believe the responses I got out of him because I questioned him properly. There are ways you can ask questions, and I guarantee you can elicit responses that will will absolutely stun you if you ask the questions properly.

And in these rare cases with the angelics, there is a decidedly a clear viewpoint that there is no reckoning between the two, and one is infinitely more powerful than the other, obviously, because one scattered and took off. There is an ancient saying in the Bible that I liked real well. It says, the wicked fleeth when no one pursueth. Have you ever tried to

have an abducte call in these angels? Try to? We actually had one case where I actually wanted to do an experiment one night my daughter in law when she first and force she became my daughter in law. She is a lady in Brazil who fled her abductions, horrified by what was happening to her, I mean, even with her mother, horrible stuff. When she got to the United States, she had a thing on the back of her neck looked like a U inside of you, like just two little letters basically inside

each other, and it was on the back of the neck. It looked like a tattoo to me, and I've showed it tonight in our presentation, and what was amazing about. Of course, I questioned her about that and found that she had turned it in the Federal police of Brazil. The aliens had done it, and that's why didn't you remove it? It looked like a tattoo to me, She said, that is after tattoo removal. It's not a tattoo anyway, A lot of horrific stuff went on with her.

One night, I was working on my computer and went to bed, and next morning my wife and I got up and she was crying, and so, what's wrong, she says. She started crying about the creature that came in through the wall, the same one in Brazil. They found her again, and she's crying and going, I mean, it's just got awful, and she's just absolutely uncontrollable. I mean, like I said, you know, you you have to be there. I really appreciate how ugly some of

this stuff gets. I'm cleaning it up here making it sound reasonable so it doesn't sound disgusting, but I'm telling you I was there, I know. So anyway, she cries and cries and cries, and I said, well, you know it's all over though, you know, she said, you know, you don't understand. She said, my events come and freeze. They'll be back tonight. And she said it happens on the third month, on the third day, at three in the morning. Well that's interesting.

So I said, well tomorrow night I'll be up. Oh, thank you, thank you. She's so grateful. You know, hey, come to my house. You're gonna pay you gotta pay rent, or you're gonna pay up. Something's gonna happen you. So that night, about two in the morning, I got thinking, you know, here is a wonderful chance for us to test to see if we could do something better. And I thought,

I'm gonna pray about this, and I did. I felt absolutely wonderful with the answer that I got that I ought to just leave this in the Lord's hands. I just felt real comfortable with that. Enough with the bad. I mean, here's my chance to face off with one of these cosmic skinheads, and I've turned it down so on faith, I just left the situation. This is in my own home. And I left the situation, went to bed, just felt great about it, felt I was doing the

right thing. Went to bed. Next morning, get up, she's screaming and crying, and oh it was awful. It was terrible. See, it was worse than the day before. I said, well, what in the world have I done? This is weird. What did I do wrong? Here? I thought this was good. I thought I thought, I really thought this was correct. I mean, this was this was the right thing. To do, and she describes this creature trying to come in, and she picked up the piece of stovewood off our fireplace She's going to hit

him with. It made him mad. What's funny about the dam? This is really weird and also happened in the Varghena incident as well. They sounded like a bunch of bees inside their head. They buzz really weird when they're angry or upset. A lot of people don't know that. Yeah, so she's she's swinging this stovewood at him and it sets back outside and all of a sudden, something, she said, Darryl, she said, something so horrific and so powerful, infinitely worse than him, comes through the wall and

she describes just, I mean, it's just horrible. Man, I should have stayed up this show. And then she starts crying. I said, why are you crying? Now? What you know? The end of the event's over here you're telling me and she says she just, I mean, just was in tears, and joy I said. She said, I'm happy, And I said, why, what what happened? This bad guy's there and you're happy? She says, yes, she said, this angel showed up, so magnificent and powerful, and this horrible creature and the alien took

off. They ran away as fast as they could get away. I was so happy. So I told her about what I'd done, and she said, I wonder where you were at. Why you didn't get up. You don't leave me alone, you don't listen. So next time, I said, it happens three, she said, yes, I will be up. All I said, I don't care what happens three o'clock in the morning, I will be there. And she was sleeping on a little palette we've made

forward there in the live. So I worked on my computer. At about two thirty, I went in, got my Japanese sword, sharpened it up, walked in and sit down right next to her and listen. Leaned back against a chair. She's over there, not about four or five feet away, on her little pallette, sound asleep. About two forty five, she sets up. I mean tell you like she woke up and never bat at the night, like she just was switched on. She sets up and looks

at me. She says, I know you're here. She was sound asleep. Wow, And I said sleep. She lays back down and goes to sleep exactly at three o'clock in the morning, she wakes up again. I mean, why is wide open? She didn't wake up. She was like, she switched on, looks at me, and she said, they know you're here. And I said, you know, I'm glad they do because now I know, you know, they know that I know. And now I know that they know that. I know that they know. Now that

we all know what I know, and they know why I'm here. And the fact their cowards won't come through that wall, I said, I'm just delighted the fact they they're not making it. I said, I wish they would. I said, I'll tell you something, that's one of these days I'm gonna be on the other side of that wall, and that's gonna be the sad day of his life. He's not gonna be scaring anybody else after that. That'll just be too bad. I don't have any respect for anybody

does that kind of stuff, human beings or anyone else. If humans are doing that to aliens, I wouldn't like it. Well, that's significant. I think, you know, maybe I'm an optimist here, but I think that whole story, you know, is very significant. It's very empowering, very positive and uplifting, and it was enormously important for her. Two final questions, I thank you for that story, and I love that story. That's gonna I know that's going to be with me for a while UFOs.

Getting back to UFOs, two quick questions, more related to the website and some of the stuff I'm exploring UFOs. Do you have an idea whether UFOs are solely alien? Are also unknowns that are built by humans as well? Maybe you know super secret projects too, to try to explore that area. Are UFOs also human made? And if so, what makes you believe that, Well, there are UFOs that are human made. There's no question about it. There's evidence of it. Area fifty one is proof of it.

Anybody's got half a brain already knows that. I have a friend that actually went out through, got through all the tech equipment had up or before they put a lot of it up years ago, back in nineteen ninety five, and he actually got through and actually watched them out in the bushes. He was up next to the feet watching that craft take off and do them incredible things light on off all of it, I mean amazing, And there's no question in my mind that that thing's powered by us. I don't know what

it is, but we've got some pretty bizarre stuff we're working on. You can't have a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars every year that even the Congress cannot look at or inquire into and think for an instant that they're actually paving roads with all that money. They don't pay roads. That money, they spend it on other things. And they're not spending on this or that or war or whatever that All that money is already allocated anyway for other things.

So this money is private and none to themselves. In the intelligence community, the ciad IA if it's intelligence agency, I'm telling you that there's this enormous am money and there's just what in the world is that money being spent on. I mean, it's not just keeping up to They just opened up

a two hundred square mile area, just opened it up. I think it was the Department, thinks in the paper today the Department, the Defense Intelligence Agency opened up a two hundred square mile of just like another green lake just opened up in paper today. I just thought this morning breakfast. So there are things out there. As I told the Japanese, they paid me two thousand dollars for an interview, which is about a fourth is long. So I for of you owed me about ten grand. Oh jeez, And they

paid me two thousand dollars for this thing. They flew me out to Los Angeles first class, and then they asked me a number of questions. I said, you know minta team, what do you do? What do you know about Area fifty one? I said absolutely nothing. At that point I thought they probably felt they wasted their money, But I told them I've never been there at fifty one know much about it. I said. The thing I can tell you about Area fifty one is it's not nearly as important as

White Sands Missile Range. What do you mean, I said, well, White Sands Missile Range where I lived for thirteen years. There's a big sign out there right very front when you drive through there says don't ope, don't pull your camera out. You know what they mean it. They'll arrest you and have you in front of a federal magistrate within thirty minutes. If in that's assuming you're just being stupid and doing what they told you not to.

If they think you're spying, you're going to go to federal prenicentiary. Now you can go to Area fifty one and earn these signs. Can't say you can't take any pictures all. In fact, there are all kinds of pictures. Every fifty one Japanese took the best pictures there ever was showed the doors on the side of the mountains out there. I mean, it's amazing the photos they got. Why have to put them in jail for respionage because what

you're seeing out in early fifty one is what you're supposed to see. And if people aren't aware, White Sands Missile basis literally right across the street from Roswell essentially, well, it's in New Mexico. Almagordo is in Halliman Air Force Base is next to it. And I've lived out there for thirteen years and I'm telling you that. And I told the Japanese, I said, you know, Area fifty two is a lot more important than every fifty one.

Fifty two Being White Sans, they said, we're area of fifty two. I said Area fifty two. I said, it's located of course in Australia, right, I said, there's an interesting base there. It's an American base and it's the middle of Australia. First of all, you got to fly to Australia to get there. Yeah, I said. The laws there in Australia a lot different than ours. They'll put you in jail for fifty years. You go out there and carry camera out there and next do

that kind of stuff out there. You gotta fly there and get there, and then you go to prison for doing it. Yeah, the MoveOn director an International director John Shusher cut a tour short in Australia for that reason. He was getting messed with and not a good area way. Their laws are not like ours. They'll mess with you there. And the National Security Agency and the CIA there don't have any laws like they do here. And the

laws over there for intelligence they ain't no law. You want to get messed with, you want to get hurt, you want to go to prison, Go ahead and go out to find gap and find out what happens. These people will mess with you. One last question. I know it's late, but I got you. You're going back to Texas, so I gotta get them in disclosure. First of all, I guess what would be your ideal way of disclosure to come out? And then the second part of the question

being how do you think it might actually come about? If you think it will come about. I don't think disclosure is going to happen the way the UFO community wants it to. I wished I had a hire hope for that, but I just don't think it's going to happen. I don't think it's gonna happen for a number of reasons. I don't want to get into here because I don't want it to be political, and I'm not picking on anybody.

It's just that I'm just telling you that I used to be an intelligence business and you're being set up. I'm afraid you're gonna get hurting if you go in there, and if you get a congressional meeting, you're gonna be You're gonna be shocked because there are people sitting in there in your group that already been planted. You're not gonna win. I already know that. So I don't think disclosure is gonna happen like that anyway. And that's just my

personal opinion. That fifty cents to get your bad cup cough won't even let you in the front door Starbucks. So I think disclosure can happen in other ways. And I hate to say this this way, but you really need something more like a day the Order stood still type deal. I think if you could catch an alien as an example, and a craft is an example somewhere or another, I think you would be a lot better off. You've created your own roswell. Or maybe we should I get a whole host of

angels on our site before we attempt that. It works for me. If they're there for hire, I'll be glad to hire them in a minute. Or tell me where they're at, where they're work, and we'll get them on board here well. And that's one of the big premises is why I started this organized group because I don't want I don't think disclosure coming from quote

unquote officials is going to be helpful or healthy. I think if we talk amongst each other and kind of a public disclosure amongst each other is going to help us go a lot further. There is an enormous lack of leadership in the UFO community. They're just is that basically we're all out here fire and warm guns, so to speak. Well, it's hard for us to degree on the but it's not just agreement there. There are there are huge egos here at stake. I don't mind following a good leader. I don't care.

It doesn't bother me. The problem is the few good people that are trying to do the right thing, that are in big leadership position, and people are doing that. Most of them are smart enough realize, you know, you might as well stay out of it. You're going to you're gonna draw a lot of fire down on yourself, and a few people who've tried to tamper with that a little bit and try to really do stuff have been shot up pretty bad. I mean, it's bad. You will pay the

price because these egos. But some of these people are so huge they're just not gonna It doesn't lend itself to that. So you're going to have to do something outside that, in my view, to come up with your own disclosure. And I think we all have our own personal disclosures we have to make. Some of us are still sitting in the closet hiding because we don't

want to talk about our abductions. We don't talk about our real experiences because my god, you know, I mean not opening the Pandora's box for myself. So I think the real people, the heroes in my view, in all this business of the abductees, I think in time you're going to see

that they were telling the truth. It's provable, and there's legal and government documents that prove this, prove it, and in fact, these people, some of them, will be re in fact his great heroes in the American and other publics around the world, simply because they came forward at a time where it was it was the worst thing you could do was stand out in front of your friends and the rest of the world and say I'm an abductee.

Yep. And some of us already believe their heroes and people like you being an ugh ductee and coming out, not just coming out, but also seeking for more answers and for more truth. And you know, I think that's a good note to it. Well, optimistic cautious. You can be an optimist, you just got to be cautious about it. That's it for this interview. Thank you very much for tuning in, and I hope you enjoyed the interview. Join us next week. We'll be back on the air

with the news and we're going to have Joe mcmonocle. This is really exciting because he was the first military remote viewer, and we'll ask him all about the remote viewing he did and how he's learned it, and you know what he saw because he does believe in extraterrestrials and like many remote viewers, they have remote viewed UFOs and seen some very interesting things. So this is going

to be a lot of fun. As always, visit openminds dot tv for the latest news, to get your news fixed that you missed this week, and we will talk to you next week. Have a great day off. Mind you say bank name name h mind you stay bank it, mind you it. Sometimes I my boding lady. Sometimes I shave. I don't even then my f I did not, and I can