Hello, and welcome to Open minds UFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I have our news. Dude. Uh Martin, I'm gonna use it again Jet Saton Willis because he's out there in a different Eastern European country this week, right, I am. Yeah, it's it's asked me if I was making a world tour. Not exactly. No, in Russia last week and in Austria. Vienna, Austria just arrived. So I'm in a little little flat and I can't to check out the city tomorrow. Yeah,
a lot of fun. So we'll get into some UFO news for those of you are news. I've been posting the show on YouTube and some people are like, they don't even start hanging out uf I was for a few minutes. It's true. But you know, Martin and I like to talk about our lives for a minute because we're the house, and I think and our listeners have expressed that they're interested in our lives, and it's very interesting that you're in Vienna. So we're going to talk about that just for a
minute. If you want to fast forward the video, that's fine. That's the only that. But we got to talk about it because I was in Hungry not too long ago, of course, for that National Geographic Mars thing, and I heard people were saying because Hungary is fun. I mean it's
for kid it's mostly twenty somethings, and there's lots of rundown. They even have places they have these things called ruin bars where it's like in uh these ruins I mean literally these are like town homes or something that are just like you know, just old and falling apart or something, but they use it to put a bar in it. So it's lots of fun and stuff. But I heard Vienna is like Budapest, but nicer, like everything's clean and
kept up and restored. Well everything is so everything is beautiful, I will tell you, though, there is major graffiti here. Really, yeah, all these beautiful buildings. Unfortunately I noticed them. Now maybe just the part of town that I came in in the taxi, I'm not sure, but these beautiful buildings of graffiti all over them. It's really a shame. Oh
that is too bad. There of course is a lot of that in Budapest, but like I said, there's for the most part, lots of older stuff that's kind of not as well kept Now there are parts of the neighborhoods and stuff that are really nice. It's still all nice. It's all fun and amazing. But uh, that's interesting to hear. And next week, I guess when you have more time, because did you just get there just here a couple of hours ago. But I did go into a restaurant.
The people are very friendly English. That was that was nice. Yeah, to be able to communicate with someone because insha, the place that I was in Russia, nobody speaks English at all, so and I know five words in Russian, you know not so it's tough. But here it's I think it's gonna be a lot better. It's gonna be a lot of fun. Uh huh cool. Cool. Well, I think that's fun too, because it's fun that you and I get to do some traveling and to the listeners
get to kind of live vicariously through us a bit. I know, I love to do that through you. It's exciting to hear that you're you know, somewhere else. Yeah, you do travel a lot. I'm often vious of you. And tomorrow I'm going to be doing my show. If you don't mind to do a little quick plug Uh, well, I have Jare morbell on for the first part of the show, but the second part is with Duardo Lobo and he made you a wonderful comic cover. Yes, yeah, he made me one as well, and so it's been he was really
into the topic. So he's going to be on part of my show right here in the studio. He lived in Vienna, so he's coming in on the studio, I should say the flat. He's coming in. We're going to do a show together. And he's been, you know, been looking at Austria UFOs forever, so we're going to be talking about that, which will be exciting. I'm want to be able to do that. That is so cool. That is really exciting. And for people who are watching on
YouTube. Right below the video is are some T shirts and you could see there and some of those T shirts are the poster that what that he created. Is that how you say his name? Well, he just he always said Eduardo the easiest column Eduardo. Okay, So yeah, he created that poster, which is super cool. I love it. You can get stickers or what have you also of the posters, so check that out below video.
If you're listening, you have to go to Openminds dot tv and click on that link, that big T shirt link, and you'll be able to take a look and get a poster T shirt. I think people have already gotten some, and they love him because the Yeah, he's a great artist. So that is so exciting that you get to meet him. Definitely tell him hello, and I will I along with you. And I think Ryan Sprague he made one for it too. We're also grateful for his excellent work.
I know, it's amazing. Would they look so authentic, you know, like in such a nice Yeah, they look like comic book posters. Yeah, so cool. He's very talented. And it's funny because I used to We used him all over the place and he was so flattered. He's like, oh, I'm glad you little bit, thank you for using it here and there, and it's like, are you kidding? It's awesome. Okay, So I guess I guess I'll talk about my guest and then we'll
get into the UFO news. The guests sport of today is David Marler, best known for his book on triangular UFOs, but he is an excellent, absolutely fabulous researcher. If he talks about any case, you know, he's done some very thorough and original research on it, and that's essentially what we're talking about. Here is one that we're both going to be at this Devil's Tower UFO event, the UFO Rendezvous that is September thirteenth through the fifteenth.
We'll be speaking there. He and I, I think are the only two with two talks each. But we also talked about our methods of you know, really deep diving into these cases to investigate them and bring out information that people haven't heard before. So he and I talked about why that's important, the importance of credibility when it comes to researching the UFO field. So I
loved it was a wonderful conversation. These conversations they feel like they go by in a couple of minutes, especially conversations like this, But this is one of them where I felt like I often feel like this, but you know, I felt that I walked away really learning something and being charged up about this field. Well, you know, David has a way of doing everything you just said. First of all, the last time I talked to him, he was on just an hour by himself, and then I had Lee
and James fox On. But I mean that went by, like you said, so fast. Yeah, he's definitely top shelf. I loved David Marley's awesome. Yep, he's great looking for listening. Yes, it's gonna be a lot of fun. And then one more thing before we're done. I've got a Patreon account up now and I linked to it, of course in
the show notes and then the YouTube video notes. And I want to say quick shout out to my new Patreon followers, So thank you so much to Andrew Ross, to James, to Joseph Hallett, who is one of my very first I think it was the second, but the first. You know, I have these levels. I have Patreon Crew, which is the first level. It's only like a buck, you know, the lowest one, which is fine. Oh my gosh. I love those people who are at that level. But Joseph, he like joined at the top level, so
he rocks. Thank you so much. And then let's see who else I got. I got Ryan, and that is Ryan Sprague. We patroon each other, and then Amy Brooks is my new one. So thank you so much to Amy and Ryan and Joseph and James and all of you. For following, and it really helps out because, as you know, Martin, you know, this is expensive. We got to buy equipment, we have to travel to parts known just to interview the people who we want to meet.
Just kidding. Of course, we're traveling for other reasons as well, but it really helps us out. So we could keep going because I know, you know, I'm sporadic at least have been on the past with material getting material out, and I've refocused in the last couple of months and regularly getting a show and my new YouTube live show rolling and on a regular basis, I'm going to be doing new and better videos, probably some sponsored videos
too. I'm seeking sponsors and I got some sponsorships here in the wings. But so we could keep providing content because it's a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, I know, it's not like you know, you always hear people say, oh, do you do this for money or whatever? I know you do this for money. I don't do it for money. My show was costing me money and so it I'm grateful for my orders as well. So I mean, yeah, because it does you know, we we do put a lot of time effort in it, but that aside, you
know, it's it's good to have support. Really really is very well. So someone can find Patreon link on your web where is really fine, It'll be in my show notes that Open mind stat tv on my description all over the place and link's all over the place, or you just look up all the Hanjo Rojas at Patreon. So plus you could get all my material there, so all the different stuff I put there. So it's a good place
to get everything that I'm doing also, so check it out. So let's get into some UFO news, my friend, what you got for us? All right? On the Big think dot com website, story by Paul rat Is, we live in a dumbie galaxy that died and back to life claims to study just the title. I sold on as soon as I saw the title, do you know what? I haven't read this? I saw that title. I thought it was really cool too. I didn't know what the heck they were talking about, so I'm really interested to hear about this.
Well, basically, we live inside a galaxy, a galaxy wide zong. Now this is according to a fascinating new study. Galaxy the Milky Way has apparently had quite an eventful life, dying once before according to calculations by the Japanese astronomer Massufimi Noguchi of Tokyo University University. I didn't mess up his name too bad, Oh, I'm sure you said it perfectly. No, Gucci
looked at the history of the milky over period of ten billion years. He didn't physically look at it for ten billion years, you know what I'm saying. And he wanted to explain the mystery of why the stars in the Milky Week can be split into those that are rich in the alpha element oxygen silicon magnxium and those that are over with iron. The astronomy created a model that
shows the existence two separate periods of starmation the model. The model utilized the theory of cold flow excretion proposed in two thousand and six by A. Vicia Deck and his colleagues from the university. Also central to the model of the facts and the chemical position of stars can tell about the gases that formed in stars essentially memorize the amount of elements at the time they were being created.
That makes total sense. So Nogucci showed that during the first period of formation, streams of cold gas came into the galaxy from the outside, leading to the creation of the first stars. Fast forward a few million years and some of these stars exploded as sup the nova's creating a large were of alpha elements. These in turn made their way in gas and got incorporated into other stars. But around seven billion years ago, shockwave heeded the gas so much that's
flow into our galaxy stopped. That's also ces starvation process for the next two billion years. So this moment period was notable for a long lived star explosion which pumped iron into gas, changing its composition, and about five billion years of the gas cooled enough and second generation of stars start to form, and that includes our on. This new of celestial objects was also richer and iron.
So this is all really quite you know, goes on. It's a great article, like anyone can check it out, but it gone to you know, basically get more into the details of it. Yeah, I think we got a lot of details with that, some of the iron and the gases and stuff like that. But the iron's good for building bones too, It's important for human that's right. I know, it's interesting. That's really
fine. Sing that a great saying that Carl Sagan had this great saying, like something like the universe had to happen in order to have all the ingredients of an outpie or something like that. Did you ever hear that one? Oh that's funny. No I didn't, But that's interesting. That's a good comment. I like it. Segan's a pretty pretty cool dude. So all right, yeah, interesting, So we're living in a zombie galaxy. What
else you got? That's it for right now? Okay. A couple of things that I would like to mention are, uh, these extraterrestrial posters. So I wrote about this and oh yeah, these are a lot of fun, and it's surprising that they did this, and they're kind of doing it on the down low. So ORBIT created this extraterrestrial tourism page and on it
they put up a bunch of posters. So you may remember, not too long ago, well actually it was now maybe two or three years ago, NASA created these fun space tourism posters about the future and how we'll visit different planets, and they were awesome and people downloaded them and hung them up. I've done so myself. Actually, they're really cool. So Orbit has kind of done the same thing. They've created these posters and you can go and
download these posters and they're really cool. So I've got a story on Den of Geek. I've also got an Openminds dot tv a story. And actually this is a bit of an exclusive for us because open Orbits got a hold of me and asked me if we wanted to write about these and I said, heck, yeah, these are awesome. So I've created this, you know, these stories, so people could check it out. But these things span from like ancient Egypt up to the current day, so they've got a
lot of ancient Aliens type of stuff in here. But these posters are really cool. You can print them up and hang them up. They're really neat Here's what the website reads. It says, we are not alone. Reports of UFO sightings and encounters of the first, second, and third kind date back to ancient Egypt and continue throughout the course of history. The truth is out there. That's a new term, like the truth is out there.
Everybody's using it, at least in the mainstream, you know. And I think, of course it's from the X files, but John Podesta, who ran Hillary Clinton's campaign, used it a lot too, and I think that's really helped it get out there, So these are super super cool. Obviously those I did. I actually share the article on the Facebook page. Yeah, they're really great graphics. Yeah, they're so cool. It's really neat that they did it. I think it's cool and it's funny because I've posted
stuff about it, but they haven't really been pushing yet. You know that if you go to their front page or web page, they haven't really push it there. I think they kind of did it for fun and then hoped the community would pick up. I don't know who else they approached, but I haven't seen anybody else really writing about it. So they're super cool. So it's kind of an open Minds exclusive. That's neat, that's right of that. Otherwise, Hunt for the Skinwalker, of course, is coming up.
You're gonna have Jeremy on your show tomorrow. I will have some exclusive interviews with Jeremy coming up as well in relation to the premiere. But a different writer at Dan of Geek wrote a story on that so people can watch
it, but we're also going to have it in our magazine. I wrote a longer piece for the magazine that's gonna really get in depth into some of the secrets that Jeremy is going to be revealing, which is that the government, you know, had a hand in the investigation of the Skinwalker Ranch, something we did not know and which wasn't in the book for a Skinwalker Ranch because it couldn't because it was a secret thing. So we'll learn more about
that in his movie. Unfortunately, you know, some of you make it upset, but it is the way it is. The San Diego had a UFO setting made a bunch of news it was flares. It was flares. I mean I saw it and I'm like, that's flares. A lot of people are like, no, it's not flares. Well, if you go to the Open Mind UFO group. Of course, there was a heated debate about it, but many of us did post pictures of flares, including me, I've got video flares and you know what, guys, it's flares.
I have another one though, go ahead, just on the on the subject of flares, I totally get why someone can first think if they're actually it's kind of like Chinese lanterns. Saw them exactly, Yeah, me too, exactly both on both points. The first time you see either of these phenomena, it's like WHOA. When I first saw videos of the flares, I thought they're there's no way those are flares because they're hanging in the air.
They don't look like they're falling, there's no smoke, and people were taking these videos fround Phoenix, which is like eighty miles away from where these flares are allegedly dropped. But when I moved out here, sure enough, I not only confirmed it with the military there on several occasions, but I just witnessed it on a regular basis, and it's amazing. They're so bright and they fall so incredibly slowly that when you're very far away, it looks like
they're standing still. It doesn't look like they're flickering. You don't see any smoke. It's just one bright light, and they're dropped by jets that have their lights off. They're just using their ir lights so they can't be seen. So now I could see how people would be fooled. I was too, but you know, take it from those of us who have a lot of experience with this. Unfortunately, those were flares, for better or worse. I think one of the reasons they look like they're not going anywhere is
just what you said. You can see them from so far away that that distance makes them look like they're moving. If they are moving at all, it's very slowly. Yeah, So I want to mention a couple more one of them. I'm just going to mention lightly because we've talked about this before. But more news about that lady in Florida who was running for Congress, who has you know, in this Spanish television news program, she talked about how she was abducted by aliens when she was a kid, and she's that
was drudged up, you know, even though it was in Spanish. So now everybody's always asking her about it. She stands by it, and she says, look, this was what I experienced, but that doesn't shape who I am, even though I feel like this is what happened. So there's more news about that out there. But I want to ask you about this one because this one's making some news out there, and this is pretty fun.
This gentleman in Argentina. So people saw on Google Earth this weird shape, this kind of star like shape, it out in the desert in Argentina, and so the news, you know, went to go check it out. Sure enough, there's this circular thing. People thought what is that a UFO landing pad. Well, they interviewed the person who put it up on his property and he said, yeah, that's exactly what it is, a UFO landing pad. The aliens talked to me and told me to build its
landing pad. So I did, and hopefully one day they're going to come land here. So really interesting, funny story. And it's funny that. You know, many times when people spot something weird on Google Space, it has nothing to do with UFOs and aliens, but this one actually is an alien landing pad. Have you seen that? No? I haven't. I was just looking for it's kind of maybe like, well, you know, no, Noah is building the arc is that what? Oh right right?
Yeah, yeah, wow, amazing. Build it and they will check it up. It's really cool. No, no, you're right. You do get a lotable that will send you stuff from Google Earth and other Google maps and all that stuff. You know. Then a lot of times like lens flares and stuff like that, but some of them are like pretty interesting looking.
Yeah, sometimes they are, and people get frustrated because you're like, ooh, I don't know what this is and when if it's really mysterious I'll try to post it and get some feedback, especially for Mark D'Antonio, and I've done that for people too who are like, what is this and I will tell them here's what I think. But I'll see if I could get out there and put as well. But yeah, this one's fun because it's a really pretty shape. Of course, if you go to openmindstat TV,
you're going to see this in the UFO headline. So do that though in the next couple of days because I'll be changing those headlines tomorrow because I always update those before my UFO Life program, which is Tuesday evenings at six pm Pacific on Open Minds Live or YouTube page. But you can always see those
headlines. I think this is one of the coolest resources we have. If you go to articles and you go to daily UFO headlines, you're going to see all of the headlines that we've been sharing with people going back for years. So I think it's a great resource that you can just go to this page and like on the front page, you go all the way from now back to like April so and all of these headlines you could see and it's amazing, you know, Like my UFO Live is mostly about UFO news,
and there's a lot of UFO news on a weekly basis. Well, you know, we do the once a year year in review. I tend use your website in that way you're talking about and go back through the year and see what's not just the stories that you've written about, but all day. It's a very good resource. Yep, that's exactly what I do. Thank you very much for saying that as well. But we are about out of time. Let's see if there's one more. Jupiter may have water, that's
what they were looking at. But it's amazing. The other one is the Luise Alizondo video from his symposium talk was posted by to the Stars, So go check that out. That's really cool. But we're pretty much out of time, Martin, I see that, well, thank you Martin. Check him out at podcast UFO. Otherwise, let's go ahead and do you want to say last goodbye? There? Goodbye everybody. Let's go ahead and listen to Dave David Marler right after this short break. I am super duper happy
to welcome back to the show my good friend David Marler. Hello, mister Marler, how are you doing? Alejandro? Good good? This is fun too, because I can see you, you can't see me. I'm the camera. I wasn't sure if we were doing video or audio, so there you go. Yeah, we're gonna do strictly audio. But I like seeing you. It's fun, and it's even more kind of fun that you can't
see me. But yeah, we were just talking about we're doing this in the morning, and this may be my first interview without coffee having had coffee, because I just got up and we're doing this and so we'll see how it goes. But for okay, we've already talked about what you do. But what's exciting is that you and I will be together with some of our friends and fellow researchers in Wyoming here soon. Absolutely looking forward to it. M hm. And you like me, so you probably feel how I felt
last year because I am Close Encounters is everything to me. I mean, it's just there's so many connections and different things and thoughts. I love Close Encounters and so my first visit to the tower, and just so you know, it was everything I had hoped. I mean, this thing is so great, so cool. You're feeling pretty excited about it, huh, I'm very excited. In fact, I was just remarking to a friend the other
day. I said, when I was ten years old and went to the theatrical release of Close Encounters, I never would have thought fast forward forty years and I would not only be going to Devil's Tower, but going to Devil's Tower to lecture as a UFO researcher. If you would go back and tell that's boy that, I would not believe you. You know what's funny I would have I would have been like, cool, if I was a ten
year old, that'll be awesome. And then when I got into college and first really was a journalism major and heard about UFOs, I was like, this stuff's kind of goofy. So it's kind of funny. If you would have told me that in college, I would have said, yeah, right where I would have thought, what a failure I'm going to turn out to be? Well, I was gonna say, for you and some of your audience that have been around for a while, as well as myself, there
is a lot of craziness in this field as well. Yeah, but not at this event. At the what at the Devil's Tower. I think the lineup is great. Of course they're going to have Lee Spiegel to bring it out from New York or good buddy Mark dey Antonio, who's always awesome. My girlfriend Karen is going to do her first talk, which I'm looking forward to attending. Actually, yeah, that's going to be fun. It's going to be on very you know, uh, like abduction cases, mass abduction
cases mostly, but good ones, credible once absolutely. And what's fun about this event? It's so small, so intimate. You know, we all get to see each other's talks, which is really rare at events and always
fun exactly. And I, you know, I learn as much from you as hopefully you learn from me in these lectures, and like you said, having that intimate environment not only for the researchers, but as you were alluding to before we started the interview, it's a very small audience relatively speaking compared to what we're may be used to in some of the larger venues, which affords you the opportunity to actually interact both before and after your lectures with every
audience member, which sometimes you don't have that luxury mm hmm exactly. When it comes to close encounters, what does close encounters mean to you? It means several things. Actually. First off, let me just say, as far as movie making goes, I think it's an absolute gem. I didn't really appreciate the movie is fully when I was younger watching it until after I got involved in UFO research. And I think you'll agree with your experience in
this field, your diverse experience. The character of Richard Dreyfus exemplifies real UFO witnesses that you and I have interviewed over the years, where they never gave a thought to UFOs and suddenly they're confronted with something completely outside their reality, and it's a paradigm shift. It completely pulls the carpet out from under their
concept of what reality is. And you see that play out in the characters of Richard Dreyfus and Terry Garr where Terry did not experience this sighting that Richard Dreyfus had that close encounter, and so she could not either. She could try to sympathize, but she couldn't empathize with the character of Richard Dreyfuss. And I've interviewed men and women who have told me what I'm telling you.
I have never told my wife or what I'm telling you I've never told my husband because I know he or she couldn't understand what I'm dealing with or what I'm going through. And it really typifies the fact that these true close encounters, not the distant lights high up in the sky, but true close encounter cases. Using the definition that Heine coined, it really is a life changing moment. I would almost say it borders on the spiritual to some extent,
because suddenly their reality is opened up to a larger, grander reality. And as you and I have known many people in this field, the reason they're here is because they had an experience or a siting themselves. So the movie, although it's fiction, really demonstrates the emotional, the human impact that these
sightings sometimes have. I think you're exactly right. And you know what's interesting about that movie too, is the more I've gotten into this arena, because even though, like I said, when I was a journalism major in college at the beginning, I was like really skeptical of the whole arena, as you look into it more and more the movie, I've always been extremely excited about the movie, but it becomes more and more important because, like you
said, it really fits our experiences and the experiences of the people who are having these encounters. And sometimes I think as a researcher, I would probably say collectively we all are guilty of this, not in an intentional way by any means, but myself. Sometimes we get up and we do our lectures and we talk about dates, places in persons, but sometimes in the course of that we lose sight of the fact that there is that emotional component.
I mean, these events in many cases are life changing. I mean, we've talked to people that have had sightings decades ago, but they can close their eyes and the goosebumps still come up on their arm when they relive and remember this. In fact, just to bring it to a personal note, my sister who had a close encounter in nineteen seventy seven outside Kansas City, Missouri, which I wrote about in my book. She was at Open Minds with me a few years back, and she's actually coming out to Devil's Tower
this year as well. And it was her sighting in seventy seven, in addition to a number of other things that got me interested in the subject. I didn't have a UFO siding, but hearing about hers year after year and the emotion that evoked with her and her husband, and only probably until about ten or twelve years ago did her husband even openly talk about it, because
he didn't like anything paranormal. You talk about ghosts, UFOs, he would walk out of the room back in the eighties, but after this sighting, he especially didn't want to talk about it, and so he was terrified of the paranormal. And when this event happened, you can only imagine his reaction
to it. But it was a very personal experience and I've witnessed it firsthand over the years with her, and to this day, I've physically been sitting there with her talking about it, and I'll see like goosebumps still come up on her arm when she starts to think about it. And so just to kind of underscore the emotional impact that these these close encounters, again not the
distance sighting so much, but the true close encounter cases. Where As in her case, much like Richard Dreyfuss and the movie Close Encounters, there was something directly over their car with a spotlight shining down on the vehicle and the surrounding area that illuminated buildings and bushes and trees around them, And this was in the middle of the night. So yeah, I mean it's it's amazing, and I don't think that we as researchers can ever truly convey the emotional
impact that these these close encounters have on these individuals. You know, you made me think of something and something especially more fringe for you and I. You and I are more hard researchers. We like the data and the information. But in the movie it alludes to that what you're talking about, but almost alludes to that being purposeful, Like this compulsion is comes from something that's seeded into these people, correct, But like you said, when they have
these events, they're affected. And there's many people, not myself because I didn't have a signing till I was into this for a long time, and I don't know have you had one. I've seen anomalous lights, but they were fleeting, they were brief, they were just you know, if you want to call that a UFO, I guess you can. But for me to say I truly saw UFO, I need to see a little bit more detail than just the little points of light that I've seen making unusual erratic maneuvers
in the sky. Nothing I would really hang my hat on right. But a lot of people that we meet and come to our lectures, the reason they're there is because they did have an experience like that. And you know, you can even think of some people like Robert Bigelow, I mean, his whole motivation is kind of like a drift. Dreyfus character is staff of this event that happened as a kid. Absolutely, and you know, going back through the annals of UFO history, even I mean Clyde Tombaugh, the
famous astronomer at a sighting. Many of these individuals have had very dramatic sightings over the years, and that's what, you know, generated their interest in the subject. It's not just simply reading about something or I hate to use the term it's bantered about so much believing in UFOs. It's people have had real world life experiences firsthand. And once you've had that experiential effect on your life, like I said, it leads an indelible impression. Mm hmm.
And Tom Bow is part of the Life magazine article in the early fifties that really helped keep the Air Force into UFO investigating absolutely absolutely, some of the early research is fascinating in some of the sightings that some of these individuals have had and of course you know presidents as well over the years. I mean, just and that's what's interesting about the UFO subject. It's non discriminatory. It affects all ages, all races, all religious denominations. It really cuts
through all the demographics. I mean, it impacts every aspect of life as far as individuals go, and it really doesn't discriminate. You know. It makes me think of another aspect too, that movie, which kind of is a real punch in the stomach to me, and I think to you, UFO people in general in this field and this frustration which is at the end of the movie. And first this was like an important thought to me when
uh and it's something I actually reflect upon regularly in this field. At the end of the movie, the woman whose son was taken, they're in there and there she's taking pictures of the aliens, and I thought, if that happened, because we've had this, you know, it's mouf on investigators. You we've both done that. If she would have brought those pictures to us, even if we believe them, if she convinced us, there's practically nothing
we could do with them because nobody's going to believe it. No, absolutely, the exactly And that's what's interesting. I mean, we have this elusive term that we banter about called proof, and proof is a very nebulous, very subjective term, and we often talk about this regarding the UFO subject as a whole when we discuss proof. Well, proof in the court of law is one thing. Proof in the court of public opinion is another. And
then we have proof within the scientific community. And so there's different thresholds of requirements to meet with regard to each one of those different types of you know, quote unquote proof that you're dealing with. I think, in general, the court of public opinion, based on at least some of the latest polls, I mean, at least half, if not more than half of the general public with in most countries. Except that there are UFOs what they are,
that's a whole different subject we can get into. But so the court of public opinion, I think, you know, we've got our foot in the door there, and people are pretty well educated on the subject as far as that there are reports that still persist, that continue and there's a small subset of that larger body that tend to defy explanation. Then we get into
the court of law. And I think Stanton Friedman and maybe yourself and others have talked about the fact that in a court of law we could really put together a compelling argument, and I would agree with that as well. But then we get into the court of public opinion, and then we get into the court of law. But then we get into the framework of the traditional
scientists and the scientific model. And in my book I talk about this, The traditional scientific model does not apply to UFOs because if and I underscore that sixteen times, if we are truly dealing with an intelligence that is non terrestrial, that is advanced, say hundreds thousands of years, how are we going to subject that to the scientific model? How do we put that into a controlled lab environment, how do we try to eliminate all the external variables,
and how do we try to manipulate that subject of our study. The scientific model, when you think about it, is predicated on the idea that we can control all the variables. And if we're dealing with something that's a little bit higher on the technological food chain, if you will, it really doesn't apply or conform to the scientific model because we can't control it. It's above our technology, it's beyond our ability to manipulate and monitor it. Rather,
they're probably monitoring us. Yeah, what do you just went over? Is probably one of my favorite moments on any of my podcasts because and that's why I love you and your work in your frame, you're the way you're thinking so much because exactly you can't, you know, throw around these terms of proof and evidence without understanding these different thresholds. And even though, like you say, this field is elusive when it comes to the scientific court of what
is proof and evidence, we still need to pursue it. But what's different is, you know, when you get into let's say dark matter, that is kind of a similar area where we don't have control over all of the variabulls, but there's a lot of kind of stuff pointing to it. And so scientists have adopted this idea of dark dark matter, but it's not proven. We have not been able to And it's the same thing with kind of this phenomena in that there's enough out there, at least four people like you
and I to demonstrate there's a genuine mystery here. But when we may reach you know, any sort of scientific evidence that's that's more difficult to know well, And you bring up a good point, and I'm glad. I'm glad you mentioned that because I completely agree what I just said does not mean we
should abandon science. Shouldn't abandon the scientific method. But all I'm simply stating is that we may be our scientific model may not be strong enough to study this phenomenon, but I think we should pursue it because certainly, in every other discipline it makes sense to follow the traditional scientific model. But unfortunately,
there's so much signal to noise ratio that we're dealing with. There's so much misinformation disinformation out there, and you know, our studies, our research are only as good as the data that we analyze, and so we as researchers, and I know, I know you and I are on the same page with this. We are very meticulous. We are very careful about vetting the informa that we look at, that we analyze, that we put into that
collective body of information that we're studying. Unfortunately, some colleagues in the field are not as meticulous and judicious as we are. But I think that's where you and I and other researchers like the researchers that are going to be a devil's tower this year. I think we all share that in the sense that we're going to try to make up for the shortcomings of other researchers by truly trying to be objective and be meticulous and try to truly vet the information properly.
Because when we get up as UFO researchers and make statements or make tentative conclusions or suppositions, our arguments are only as strong as the weakest link. And so as researchers we need to be careful about the information that we present. And I know you and I are completely on the same page with regard
to that. Yeah, you know, the framework that you just set out also makes me kind of reflect upon it, and I think one of the reasons we're kind of stuck also is that we've actually gained a lot of ground, Like the numbers that you use when it comes to public opinion, we've kind of cross that hurdle, and the public opinion has I think become on the side that there's a real mystery. So we then move into kind of the court case, and we've actually at this point won the court case.
I mean there's enough of that sort of evidence, circumstantial evidence, credible expert witnesses, And this is something people need to understand. Anecdotal information by itself is not enough even in the court of law. You need expert opinion. But we do have expert opinion now expert opinion. We have multiple ground based,
air based radar confirmation of these sightings. As you know, photographic and video evidence, which in some cases has been analyzed fairly well, although the beast majority is just out there floating around on the Internet and YouTube, and I always like to call that more entertained met than evidence. I always have people coming up to me, have you seen the latest YouTube video? And I told him, I said, I work full time and I do UFOs full time. On the side, I said, I work full time jobs.
It would be a full time job just to watch every latest UFO video posted on YouTube. I said, I don't have time for that. And again getting back to what we were discussing, it's very hard to chase down where those videos originate from, who actually shot the video, and under what circumstances. So I've never really made that a focus of my research, and
even with some of the cases I've analyzed where there's photo evidence. I don't profess to be a photo analyst, but I would certainly enlist the aid of anyone that does have expertise in those areas, maybe willing to donate their time pro bono to looking at some of the photo and video evidence associated with some of these cases. Yeah, and so the next step is a scientific and I have some questions around that for you also, But this could be an
area that we're in for a long time. Getting back to the dark matter. Dark matter, the seventies is when I think people started talking about it. Early eighties is when scientists kind of adopted it, but they still haven't proven it, And so we may be in a situation for quite some time
where we can't prove it. But in this case, we're dealing with a potential sophisticated intelligence, and I don't know, I don't feel that it is much of a leap, even though SETI scientists do that if these intelligence exists, they're capable of denying that sort of evidence. No, I agree.
It's an interesting dynamic when you deal with the study researchers. Obviously, their whole existence is predicated on the notion that there must be life out there, but because we can't get out there, and advanced intelligence can't travel here. And what's interesting about that argument, and it goes back to what you were just saying a moment ago about dark matter and how scientists are still studying this
and trying to understand it. The SETI arguments, and really all the traditional scientific arguments that both you and I and collectively the UFO community have heard over the years, is based on the extraterrestrial hypothesis, namely, one star system, one race of beings on some planet in a distance star traveling light years
to get here. And then they go into the traditional argument which you and I have heard at infinitum ad nauseum, about well, the distance is required and the time involved in the life span of the entities, and the fuel requirements would exceed the capability of a spacecraft. YadA, YadA, YadA. I think a lot of your audience have heard these arguments time and time again. But the one thing we have to take a step back and realize is
the extraterrestrial hypothesis is just one of many hypotheses. And talking about dark matter and talking about science and looking forward, I find it interesting going through my research files, going through magazines and newsletter articles back from the late fifties into the early mid sixties, you have UFO researchers or enthusiasts that talk or reference the fact maybe these things are maybe dimensional in nature, maybe they're not extraterrestrial,
in other words, coming from another star system. And you would see skeptics from the time, and you would see mainstream scientists poking fun at UFO researchers saying, well, there you go, there's the folly of UFO research
and researchers. They're often the land of speculation and science fiction. Well, for anyone that's read Mishio Kaku's works, or for anyone that has really kept up to speed on where astrophysics is now going, you can almost talk to any astrophysicist and they're willing to conceive that multiple dimensions of reality more than likely.
You know, it's as if science is catching up with UFOs, right, we've got to go to break actually, But on that point, I have been talking with some more credible science minded people, and behind the scenes, they're not willing to be public about their discussions. But now that there is more credibility brought to the potential existence of this phenomena. They're more willing to speculate in that vein that perhaps it's a multi dimensional sort of issue,
because multi dimensional science is a thing. So it's interesting that I think that's where they're going to be going if they come out of the gate soon, you know, to talk about this mystery. But we do have to go to a break. We're talking with David Marler. You're listening to Open MINDUFO Radio. And for those of you listening to the podcast, you'll hear a
short musical interlude. For the rest of you, you'll hear some commercials on kg r A Radio, So please, you know, stick around, listen to those and patronize some of these people because they help keep kg r A running. And I'm sure if you're listening on KGr A you love their their music or their their shows. They don't do music. Hopefully they love the music in my break here, but I'm rambling because I didn't have copy this morning. Let's go ahead and go to break. We'll be right back with
David Marlin. Welcome back. You're listening to Open Mind UFO Radio. I'm your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we are here with David Marler having an absolutely fascinating discussion. I was already excited for Wyoming coming up here. Now I'm even doubly excited. But we were talking about how, you know, these different courts of proof and evidence, and we've kind of got the public,
We've got the court case. Next is a scientific case. And for any you know people, we've been talking about this in the last couple of shows. It's just to the Stars Academy and them creating this ADAM project where they want to examine UFO materials, potential allegedly materials. But you know, as much criticism as people may have out there of the group and what's going on, them putting together this ADAM project actually put takes this one step closer
to scientific evenings that at least now we have a mechanism for it. What are your thoughts on this new project. I am for anyone that wants to invest time or their treasury into examining this subject. And you know, even with the UFO conferences that you and I speak at, Alejandro, I encourage people, if you're interested in the subject, join, move on, go and do investigations on your own. Donate money to researchers that you believe are
credible but participate on some level. I mean, the UFO subject or UFO research community within the UFO subject has always, as you know, been a grassroots movement. It's individuals from all walks of life that have full time jobs during the day but feel in their heart of hearts that this subject needs to be investigated. So, you know, to the Stars Academy, I endorse them. I congratulate them for investing time and effort into trying to understand this
mystery. Anyone that truly takes an objective, scientific approach towards the subject, I'm all for. I certainly am not going to be, you know, one of the naysayers or one of the skeptics on the side kind of casting stones. Anyone that's taking an active role in this subject, I commend you for the time the courage to do so. So many people like to sit and hear ghost stories. I mean it's great that they come to the conferences
and they listen to the information. They're open minded. I congratulate you for that, but I would encourage you to take the next step, do something to actively help the research move forward, because we have a lot of data, as you and I were discussing during the break, and we have to sift through that data. We have to collect new data, We have to
start putting this information together. It doesn't help to continue to collect UFO case files if we're not going to start diving into that material and looking for patterns, which is what as you know, I'd done with the triangular UFO subject. Really tried to take laser focus and look at this subset of UFO reports and come to find out we have at least fifty sixty seventy years worth of
these triangular UFO reports. So looking for patterns in the data. Anyone that can take the time or effort, or like I said, if you have lots of money and you know a researcher out there that you like that you want to support financially, any assistance can help you know, budget that needle move us forward to have a better understanding of this subject. It's funny, you know, on that point that you said, anybody who's willing to, you know, kind of dive into their treasury, and that's kind of the
way a lot of us think about it. It's not you know, there's this this this idea out there, especially among some mainstream I think it's starting to go away that some people in this field do this sort of thing like writing a book for money, whereas really for people like you and I, it's more of a how much am I going to be able to spend on absolutely In fact, I'm sitting here in my research room and you know, I don't even want to try to mentally add up the amount of money I've
spent over twenty eight years of investigating this. I'm looking at sixteen four door file cabinets on my right and about ten bookcases on my left, and that's just some of the material that I've amassed. And I don't even want to
try to do the math as far as what I've spent. And that's that's counting materials, that's not counting obviously, time in the field that you and I have done, you know, boots in the field, looking and investigating and researching, doing skywatches, doing nighttime vigils in areas where they've had repeated UFO sightings. I don't think people truly appreciate the amount of time and money that UFO researchers spend, and you know, with maybe very rare exception.
Do I know anybody that's actually gotten ahead and actually made money as opposed to losing money. But to your point, we don't do it for the money. We do it because we truly believe there is something that needs to be studied. And that's without making any conclusions. All we're simply saying is there
is a body of information here that deserves better scrutiny and better understanding. And that's really the only thing that I enter into the subject with is with that mindset that, as I like to say, where there's smoke their spire, and there's a hell of a lot of smoke regarding this UFO subject, and
it deserves it demands better scrutiny, better scientific understanding. And so with that, that's why I'm passionate, and that's why it's been my mission to try to at least glean a little bit better understanding by sifting through this data and interviewing people and collecting this material. And what's funny, Alejandro, is you know, when I wrote my book a number of years ago, I had this naive intent that, well, I've got all this information, I really
want to share it with people. What I didn't realize is the amount of information I would receive in response to my book. Just within the last week, week and a half, I had a gentleman, very nice gentleman, email me from Spain and describe in detail a triangular UFO siting that he and his girlfriend or wife I believe had a number of years ago. But I've received emails from Germany, Switzerland, Spain, the UK, all over the world, people wanting to share their reports. And I wasn't expecting that.
I thought it was a one way street that I'm going to provide this information to the public, and I didn't realize how the public would respond with providing additional case files and information. I want to get back to something else. You just talked about diving into the information and this abundance of information being out there. One of the things I like to design my talks around it.
And this is something that is looking at cases that have a bunch of information, and there are so many people are like, well, why do you guys have to rehash this old stuff. It's because there's stuff you don't know about this old stuff, and maybe you could talk about you were given a compliment recently, well not recently, it was a few years back. I was at well, it still applies, it still applies, and it's applicable
to what we're discussing. Your Rich Dolan, after one of my lectures I can't remember it was on the Battle of La or the Farmington Flying saucer Amada of nineteen fifty, he came up to me in the lobby after my lecture and he goes, you know, I really think you found your niche he goes, you have the unique ability to take a case that we thought we knew about for years or decades, and we thought we knew everything, and
you do a deeper dive and you're able to find additional details and information that we didn't know about. And so coming from Rich, you know, I take that as as an extreme compliment, but it's true. And to your point, I've often seen criticisms posted about whether it's my Battle of La lecture or the Farmington incident, or even people talking about other historical cases that other
researchers have investigated. And to your point, they'll make that criticism, well, why are we researching these old cases, my guy, that happened decades ago. Well, I'm here to tell you, and I'll give you an exact reason why we investigate some of these cases. My research into the Farmington Flying Saucer armada, I tracked down two living witnesses from nineteen fifty that are still alive. One gentleman's ninety four years old, still goes to work every
day. He's a very successful businessman in Farmington, New Mexico. I've become good friends with him. Some of these witnesses are still around, They're not necessarily in the grave yet, and so it's a gross assumption to assume that, well, it's been decades, all those witnesses are deceased. No. I interviewed a living witness from the Battle of La incident some years ago when
I was first getting involved in that research. But more importantly with Farmington, there were Air Force Office of Special Investigation files that were declassified a number of decades ago, and then there were six pages that were still classified. In nineteen eighty five, I came across that with the assistance of Jan Aldridge, and there were OSI files and there was a sheet from the Air Force Intelligence
files stating that six pages were restricted from declassification. Well, just within the last five to six months, I filed a Freedom of information Act request and worked with the National Archives and I was able to get the unredacted documents that were previously classified, and they were only declassified within the last year year and a half. But I had to file LA FOYA request to obtain them. So even though this case occurred in nineteen fifty, it was only in twenty
seventeen that these documents were fully declassified. So that's one of the reasons we investigate these old cases. Sometimes it takes us decades to get our hands on the unredacted documents that provide additional details and insights into what transpired decades ago. I think another great example is your research with the Battle of La and that
you've been able to uncover photographs. Absolutely. I have an original photograph from the Battle of La and by that I mean it has the original news teletype stamped and dated February twenty fifth, nineteen forty two. The long story short, I obtained that through a gentleman that lived in the Greater La area. His wife used to go to yard sales and the state sales and he would begrudgingly go with her, and one Saturday morning a few years ago, he
went to one of these estate sales or yard sales. And while he's waiting for his wife to peruse all the different merchandise that was for sale, he knows two very large boxes underneath a folding table sitting in the front yard, and he crouched down starts going through filefolder after filefolder that was within these fileboxes, and in each filefolder was an original black and white news photo with the
corresponding news teletype glued to the back. And there were Hollywood celebrities bing Crosby, there were World War Two photos in there. I mean, it was like a time capsule of the forties, nineteen fifties, I believe in the early nineteen sixties. And he asked the woman that was obviously in charge of this yard sale, these are really fascinating. Where did you obtain all these photos? And she said, innocently enough, Oh, those belonged to my
grandfather. He was a photographer with the Associated Press. And lo and behold, out of all the Hollywood photos, out of all the World War two photos, an original copy of the Battle of la photo was there with the original news teletype, which I eventually obtained from this gentleman. So again, with the passage of time, as individuals pass away as their belongings are sold off. We never know where the state is going to come from. Perfect
examples of why you need to look at this sort of thing. And I want to also kind of clarify something because I think that self examined is always important. And I try not to get too wrapped up in social media comments and stuff that people make, but you know, I want to kind of talk about this because I think it's fair and it's something that's probably good for
us to talk about. Is some people will talk about I get this occasionally, Oh you guys are so egotistical talking about how great your work is, blah blah blah. But I would say, in a way I feel this way a bit, and perhaps you do too, that we kind of need to justify ourselves in this field because it's not just kind of touting, oh, you know, the way we do it is so great, but just
that this sort of look at this material. It's going to be important for credible research and for the mainstream going forward, and we need to protect it because we're attacked constantly with oh, we already know Roswell was aliens. We already know aliens are telling us this and aliens are telling us that we don't.
I don't know those things, so we can't prove those things, and so we need to gather this material like you're doing, and this evidence in this great research too, so we can demonstrate that there is a rich, credible history here. And that's really the fundamental thing I come back to. I think I mentioned I gave a lecture at the University of New Mexico, which I was very honored to be invited to speak there because I'll be donating
my research library when I pass to the university for long term preservation. But when I initially approach the university, that's the exact cornerstone of my argument that I used. Whether you relegate the subject of fact, fiction or folklore, we all have to agree it's part of our culture and thereby it's part of our history, and just like any other aspect of history, it needs to be preserved. And so that's what I've tried doing, and that's what you
and m will continue to do with this collection when I'm long past. But I completely agree with you. We need to very be we need to be very careful and distinguishing what we know versus what we believe, and I see so much belief within the UFO field. I will concede. I believe there is something to this subject, but I'm beyond that. As we were talking about during the break, Alejandro, I have lots of data. You have lots of data. Data does not necessarily equate to answers, and that's what
we're looking for. And I would argue, if someone wants to criticize your work, if someone wants to criticize my work, do it in a constructive way, not through character assassination, not through just little cheap shots on social media. If you feel that I've made an error in my conclusions or in my research, please provide constructive criticism, because again it gets back to what we were alluding to earlier. Participate in this journey, Participate in trying to
understand this mystery. Cheap shots and character assassination is not constructive in this field or in any other. If you see that we're making an error, please provide suggestions. Have you thought about approaching it from this angle? Hm, I'm not interested in people's opinions. I've had people come up to me,
both pro and con saying, oh you investigate UFOs. I don't believe in UFOs, And I politely but very bluntly state, well, I really don't care what you believe in, because you know what, Alejandro, it doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what you believe on a personal level, certainly, But when we're getting up and presenting, it doesn't matter what we believe. All that matters is what we can present in the way of evidence, in the way of patterns in the data, in the way of
information that bolsters these preconceived beliefs. And let me ask you this. If someone said, David, you've got that completely wrong. Here's a document that shows that proves my point that here's what really happened, and this is how you have it wrong. How would you feel when someone brought that to you. I'm completely I'm an objective researcher. If you have compelling information that can
prove demonstrably that I'm wrong, I'll accept it. The difference is the difference is with some researchers out there, Unlike yourself and myself, we do have jobs, we do have lives outside the subject. Our whole existence is not predicated on believing in the UFO subject. And so it's not going to change my life in any way, shape or form, if you can prove in fact, Alejandro, I have an example, the famous January fifth, two
thousand incident involving multiple police officers in southern Illinois citing this triangular UFO. I've had many people on the internet and personally tell me, well, that was just military. Well that's great that you say that. Do you have anything to back that up? And I concede it might be military. In fact, I did an interview with Darryl Barker, a friend and colleague of mine, who did a wonderful independent documentary on that case, because he was actively
involved in that case as well. And that's in fact, how we met many years ago in two thousand and two thousand and one, and I believe it was in I'm trying to think now, I believe it was two thousand and five or two thousand and ten. I did an introduction for his revised documentary and stated that many people claim that this object was military, and I can see it's a possibility. It's actually the most probable explanation when you look
at things equally. But I stated at that time, again, this would be two thousand and five twenty ten that I can see that that might be a possibility. But when you look at the shelf life of aircraft, you know, you're looking maybe ten to fifteen years, like the running a time.
By the way, Okay, if you look at that in another five years, ten years, twenty years down the line, are we still going to cling to that explanation, because certainly whatever existed in two thousand that was state of the art has been surpassed and built upon, and I would think that that technology would have been declassified ten twenty years later, you know, And I'm going to go so far as to assume this because I know you and I think this would be the case that you would feel similar with that
idea. If someone brought you a document that showed, actually there was a top secret project going on. I've got a document that shows here's when the testing was done and there was testing on that day. Not only would you not be upset, you would be so excited and happy, and it would be in your next lecture. I love coming across that stuff absolutely, I mean, please correct me. I want to be corrected because I want the facts. As long as we have credible information that presents that, then the
you know, the facts are the facts. That's how I look at it, right, ever direction that they lead to or point to, and absolutely, because you know what, at that point, I'm not going to waste any more time on this r right, And I think that's fascinating too. To me, unveiling some of these secret programs or these technologies are almost as
equally exciting because it's like, wow, look we did have this. Let's say, you know, we find out the Phoenix Ights was it's a gigantic you know, triangular craft, because we did have something like that that we were working on. Little story. Yeah, it's still a great story. So we're out of time. What do you have coming up? Are you
working on a new book? Do you have something to plug? Well, I'm working on a new book, but it's going to be long and coming, like I said, with full time job and family and other things.
But I'm really trying to consolidate all my research on the Farmington Incident from nineteen fifty into a small book because I have come across new information, new evidence, and I've been able to weave together the research of Barry Greenwood in conjunction with some information that I've uncovered I've also gone to the University of Arizona and I resurrected some of doctor James McDonald's investigative notes on that case, which many
people haven't seen. So trying to weave all of that together in addition to the newspaper research I've done at U and m going through the microfilm and hopefully we'll put together a nice little book that kind of sheds new light on that case and maybe gives a little bit more exposure to what was really transpiring during those three days in nineteen fifty March of nineteen fifty. So actively working on that as well as some other projects as well. All right, well,
time absolutely flew as usual. Thank you so much for coming on the show again, and we'll see you soon in Wyoming. Boys a pleasure, Thanks Alejandro, see you soon. Thank you so much to David Marler for joining us on the show. He is absolutely awesome. I'm a big, big, big big fan, so check out his webpage well, of course, have a link in the show notes and check out his book if you haven't, Trangler UFOs, very very very good book. You can also see a
link to that in the show notes as well, which reminds me. If you're watching on YouTube, please do subscribe. Also if you want to see when we post videos, which you do because it's good stuff. Dude, click that little bell down there that you see and you'll be sure to be notified. You might not be aware that just because you subscribe doesn't mean you'll be notified when you're gonna when we post a new video anymore. It used to be that way, I think, but it's not anymore anyway. Some
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gets into detail about the background of the Space Force. And what's cool about this too, is this is on my new YouTube page because I'm going to be doing some non UFO stuff and so I'm going to be posting more videos there that are going to be reviews and news and other stuff that's just going to be able to help you out with your life. You can also at
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of the stuff that I'm up to. If you go to my patron site and you'll see a link to that at the top right of Openminds dot Tv, or just like I said, go to Patreon and Google me what's cool about this? I like referring to my site because it shows all the other stuff I'm doing. So we went to Saboten that's actually this anime conference for
a minute. It's at the hotel that we're going to be yet for the UFO Congress, and that's really while we were there, but they were doing this anime thing, which I'm really into, and they were doing cosplay, so all these people and their outfits. I took some pictures and I made a video so you can see some cosplay if you're into that sort of thing. Also for the UFO Congress, I talked about this before, but we're posting free videos that you're not going to be able to see anywhere else on
the UFO Congress YouTube page. And when we get to a thousand subscribers, which we might even be there, I've got to go check. We're very close. We're going to be doing some giveaways T shirt Glowing the Dark Alien hat rocks, so you got to check that out. Of course, I mentioned Devil's Tower UFO Rendezvous. We've got a link to that in our email and also on my Patreon site. And I think I've told you everything there is to know. So a couple about those videos on the UFO Congress site.
By the way, we have a David Hatcher Childress one that you're not going to see anywhere else. Of course, he's on the TV show Ancient Aliens. And we also have one from Tracy Tormae who was the screenwriter and producer of Fire in the Sky the Travis Walton's story, so it's him talking about it. Very rare video and also a Q and A. But that is everything. So thank you very much to David Marler. Again, thank you to Caleb Hanks for the opening end closed music. Remember his brother Micah
Hanks, who is also awesome. He is going to be at the Devil's Tower conference as well, and also Chris O'Brien is going to be there and that's going to be our next guest, so check it out. We're going to have some really important new info from him on the next podcast. Thank
you to Martin for helping me out with the news at the beginning. Check him out on podcast UFO, and thank you for Systematics for the bumper music, and of course, as usual, thank you the listener for joining us again and we'll talk to you next week Until then, audio smooth chucchos and you mus