Hello, and welcome to Open Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I have with me the illustrious Martin Bad to the Bone. Willis Bad to the bone. That's right. Yeah, yes, I'm here. How you doing. I'm doing great? How are you doing? It gets cold here though it's kind of chilly here. It's it's at least in the sixties. Yeah. Yeah, we're in single digits here in Maine.
WHOA, that is really fligging cold. Yeah. I mean January is the cold month, and when I lived in Denver, that's when it got the coldest, especially early January. So I am happy not to be anywhere cold. I bet I bet so. My guest. I'm very excited about my guest today. He created this great video. He works in the avy field. He's like, I know, a director of photography for this company, does lots of work in television and stuff. So he got interested in
the two thousand and four Nimitz Carrier strike group case. This was a case that was shown to the world at the New York Times in their story last December December twenty seventeen. This story that revealed the whole Pentagon thing with Louel Azando and the whole thing. You know, they talked about this Nimetz case. Of course, since then, you and I have interviewed several people regarding
this case. But what David Beatty did, and if you're one of the one point four million viewers who have seen this on YouTube, he created this fifteen minute video that goes, you know, minute by minute of what happened during that encounter Commander David Fraverer had and his colleagues when they zeroed in on this tic TAC looking UFO. And it's got great CG. It's got footage from the Navy, it's got interspersed with an interview with David Fraverer. He
was able to get permission from to the Stars to use their interview. So it is really really good. And I had a great time talking to David Batty about this video. So if you haven't seen it, got to see it. Of course, the link will be in the show notes, and I think everybody's going to really enjoy this interview. He is, of course very well versed on this case well and I have not seen it, but as soon as we get done by golly, that's the first thing I'm gonna
do nice, nice, nice nice. It's gonna be a lot of fun. So so yeah, that's the show today. But before we get into the show, of course, we always spend some time, you and I to talk some UFO news, that's right, And you know I looked like you do, I'm sure every single day, and to see what's in the
news about UFOs, and boy is it heavy with Project blue Book. First of all, the New York Times leslie Kine and Ralph Blumenthal published story Project blue Book is based on a true story, and here it is, and that that's in the New York Times that came out on January fifteenth the other day, and a great article. Check it out. And so as I'm looking around for news again, I see more and more about Project blue Book. Nothing new as far as sightings to speak of. There's things out there.
This is really cool. Can I mention something about the New York Times article? Yeah, yeah, go ahead. What I love about that article. What I think is great well and interesting is you know I know leslie Kine who wrote that article along with Ralph Blumenthal, two of the authors of the New York Times story that broke the whole Pentagon story. Just one of the people is missing. But these guys are the ones who broke the story. I wrote this Pentagon or this Project blue Book story, but they used
some very strong verbage. Like in the earlier one about the Pentagon, Leslie said they had to fact check everything and they were very careful. But like here's one of the quotes from this new Project blue Book one. When Project When blue Book closed in late nineteen sixty nine, the Air Force flatly lied to the American people, issuing a fact sheet claiming that no UFO had ever
been a threat to national security. That they are accusing the Air Force of lying in this you know, in this sentence without justifying why they're saying that. Now, I think I can make an argument that would justify what they're saying. But still, you know, I'm surprised they weren't, you know, required to make that argument in this article. That is a real good
point. Well yeah, pretty strong stuff. It's essentially New York Times saying, you know, the Air Force had lied and it was misrepresented and all that sort of thing. I don't think that anyone's going to be shocked, to be honest with you, that a branch of the government lied to its people. But about UFOs, I think people for some reason, you know, they get a little more skeptical about that. But that's true. It's
true. Yeah, it's very interesting story. Yeah. So the other article that caught my eye in the news today, it was actually came out on January ninth, but still it's hot in the news and it's basically the History Channel's own website, and it's titled seen a UFO in the nineteen fifties. You could report this in this easy questionnaire and say you're out walking the desert and see a flash of light in the sky that you can't identify. This
happened between nineteen fifty two and nineteen sixty nine. You could report that light to Project Bluebook at the US Air Force Project to Investigate Unidentified Flying Objects aka UFOs, and it was the longest running official government inquiry into the UFOs that we know of, I should say, based at Wright Patterson Air Force Base. In anyway, if you look at the form, it's really great. They have this original scan of the actual form that you would fill out and
which is now unclassified and uh and you know it starts out confidential. US Air Force technical information sheet, and then it goes on to you know, all the questions like, you know, when did you see this, what time of day was it? And yeah, and they asked also about the moon and the stars yea, and was it brighter you know what was brighter in the background? And did the object stand still at any time? And then it goes on you know about sounds, you know what type of sound
did this create? If any and then it has silent as the first one, buzzing and you know, et cetera, and it was fuzzy or blurred anyway. It's a great, great little form. Anyone can check it out, you know, it's just you'll probably put that in the show notes maybe huh uh, sure, yes, send me the link. But there was as Comic Con when they did that activation for Project blue Book, and I don't know if you remember I talked about it. I post a Facebook live
of me going through there, but they used the actual form. So they used that form when you know you went in and you sat down and they said have you had a UFO siding? Oh? I remember that? Yeah? Yeah, And if you didn't have a sighting, you can just continue through on through the rest of the activation, which is kind of a display, you know, and activation is the first time they're showing, hey, we're doing this cool TV show, so it's like activating the whole marketing of
the show. And some people walked on, but most people had sightings to explain, which was kind of neat, and then they used that form they asked those questions and then they passed that form onto their sketch artists. So as you enjoyed the display, they would tell you, you know, come back in ten minutes and we'll have your sketch of your sighting done. So that was really cool. But yeah, they use that for him. It's a great form. And I didn't know that they actually used the original form
when you did that. I remember you telling about the whole experience. Yeah, it's pretty cool, and you know, that form essentially, you know, move on in other groups built off of that. I can see that. I mean there's a lot of really you know, great information that and it's funny. It's like circle one and you know, you know, they
have all different types of examples of whatever it is. You know, the questions involved, like what was the condition of the sky bright daylight all daylight bright twilight just a trace of daylight, you know that type of stuff. Yeah, very very detailed. It just narrows it right down, you know, question after question. Yeah. So regarding blue Book, Yeah, if I can ask you, I brought you up in an interview with Michael Hanks
this morning. Oh and we're talking about what a chump you are just kidding. No, you know, Micah had asked me about Project blue Book, and there's a little bit of this in the New York Times about how it's you know, heavily fictionalized, And in my preview or review of the show, I said that too. You know, it is got a lot of heavy on the fiction. But and that seems to have inspired, Like Mica brought up a lot of anger and angst yes in at least the online UFO
community, And he laughed when I told him. He said, what do you think? And I said, well, that community gets upset about everything and they're freaking out. They're so negative about everything. I mean, I'm sure you and I, for instance, are skeptical, we're careful to examine things, but they just love to tear people down, it seems like, and find like, for instance, there's some new documents out about a tip, and now they're all fighting about this and these documents just because I brought
it up to share with the audience. I tweeted about them. Nick Pope actually wrote an article about them, which is linked on the Open Minds front page. And they don't really say much. They just talk about here are some of the products from a tip, meaning in what they mean are some of the scientific papers that came out of a tip. And a tip, of course is this Pentagon UFO program that Luise Elezando ran that was in the
New York Times. We talked about to back up to make sure everybody's caught up, but so it didn't have a lot, but there were a lot of people who said, oh, they don't even believe this organization was real and that these guys are lying. And so now they were accusing Nick of I guess faking these documents, which doesn't surprise me, and he had to tweet guys, I did not make these documents up. They were sent to me via FOYA. And actually there's a Federation of American Science, aientist researcher
who also got these who posts this on their FAS dot org site. So yeah, they're real, and they show that the group was real. It shows the name, but that's just an example these people ripping and tearing and oh no, they're faith they aren't even real and they're all lying to us. And so I mean, uh, this doesn't surprise me about the negativity. But I was just I brought you up because you know, I've interviewed
Paul Heinek. You got to interview Paul and Joel together with Lee. Lee called me right after the show, by the way, and say, guess who I just talked to. But you know, they are very happy with the show. They got to be involved with making sure their father was represented properly. I think Aidan Gillen's doing a great job. And Heinek is like a mega hero. I mean he's like, wow, look at this one scientist against the Air Force and he's learning all this stuff. He's a great
molder ish type of character. And the show is not accurate completely, but it's a historical fiction. I mean, I'm a fan of historical fiction. Not all historical fiction. It varies from very way off base, but kind of getting the essence of the period of time to fairly accurate. Fairly because you can't be that accurate. You can't be completely accurate in a fiction show and encapsulate the story. So I don't have a huge problem. I wish
it would. It's always nice when it's more factual, but it's not that big of a deal to me. And here's just real quick two points. One point being that it's bringing the net gain is that it's bringing a ton of attention to Bluebook that it existed and through the eyes of the best person, Heinik, who was a real scientist, who was a skeptic, who after looking at the evidence, found it was real. So all of these people and you're seeing story pop up all over the place about UFOs and Project
blue Book. And here's a Project blue Book that was in our town, you know. Here's the UFO sidings from twenty eighteen all related to this Project blue Book. So it's brought so much positive attention to the UFO field and research and interest in it that I think it's been a real positive And then on top of that, the second thing is that the History Channel is creating these articles like you just talked about that are explaining the facts in the background,
and they're very you know, compelling UFO stories. Because they're using compelling UFO cases in the show. So these articles are great that are just further getting information out there. And I don't know of any other show. You can tell me if you know differently, but I don't think I've seen any other show where they released articles like this in conjunction with their historical fiction show
to show that the reality. I don't think so either. And you know, I've been battling out with some people on Facebook and bringing that up as part of my argument into why I think it's a great show. And if someone wants to, you know, want more fact than they should watch a documentary. And this is never stating anything other than what you said, historical
fiction. And you know, as far as speaking to both Joel and Paul Heinick, they are very happy with all the all the work that Aiden did as the actor to try to I mean, he actually calls them and asks them, you know, certain questions and and wants to make sure that he would, you know, go along the same lines in the way that Heinich would do. And uh, they they are happy. They said, you know, basically, well, you know, some things we wish, you
know didn't happened or whatever. But you know, we just overall, we're very happy with all the you know, attention that is given to UH, to Heine's character and full disclosure. You and I have received these friggin' awesome I don't know if you knew I got one, but I saw in your social media you got one, and I had shared on social media when I got mine. Oh, these attacked sharecases that are real leather, that nice, some cool, very nice. I mean, that's something you could use
forever. And they came with these blue book files and a pen and some cool stuff inside of them. Even candy, Yeah, lots of candy. So they're freaking cool. And but I got to say it, at least for me, even if you know, I think the audience knows. I'm
very honest with the audience. So if even if I didn't like the show that cool package, I still would said, hey, but the marketing people are awesome because they sent me this package, even though they're show sucked, I would still say, you know what my complaints are about the show, But overall, I'm genuinely enjoying the show and I'm loving the results. You know, you and I pay attention to the mainstream media and all this positive
attention UFOs are getting. Are you sway do you think you're biased from your cool attache? No, that's not going to buy me over. I just really I enjoyed the whole concept of it right from the beginning. And you know, I think one or two when you and I have had you know, access to the screeners for up to the first six episodes, and I think one in particular, one of the episodes goes just way out way out
there, too far. But other than that, you know, you get involved with the characters and they're they're very likable, and I just think it really the show really grows on you, and I think I think it's it's
going to be a really good success. It's already had. I think the first show had over three million viewers, and so I think it's just going to grow, and hopefully they'll have more than one season because I want to find out more of those stories, even though as we're both talking about, they're not exact, but it will get people to look into the real cases.
Yeah, and you know, I think it's it's all good. I don't see I can't really see anything negative about it, And you know, you and I could do a show on the negativity in the UFO field alone. Unfortunately, I know, I know, I mean, we we're just talking about some negativity and that going on out there that people have sent us that we both just don't see, at least currently a point to kind of
get into. But that's typically the case. I mean, there's so much great positive information to share in this world like this, you know interview I'm just about to have with Baby about this incredible Nimitz case. And you know, David Fravor talking all over the place to major media, a commander, a pilot, you know, jet fighter pilot, well respected talking about his dogfight with this tic tac UFO. This sort of stuff has never happened before.
The government politicians calling in Luise Elizondo and other David Fraver and others to talk about UFOs, you know, and there's been several congressional subcommittees that have done this, and so it's an incredible time of discovery and that's why I think we just there's a lot of data and real information to come over and to look into, and that's what I think people need to pay attention to and not just get distracted by people trying to tear each other down for whatever
reason. I don't get it. I don't know why. It reminds me of this saying the scroll I knew had. You know, blowing out other people's candles doesn't make yours shine any brighter. Yeah, And you know, if people could I don't know if it's egos or whatever it is, or sour grapes or I don't know what it is, but if they could remove that part of it and just look at what it truly is, you know,
I'm talking about Project Bluebook, the series. Then you know, if they could just somehow not be offended that it's not following the exact the truth of what happened, and that it's it's made for entertainment as well as also giving many tidbits of factual information available. You know. That's like you said, that's I don't think anyone's ever done that before. Yeah. Yeah,
So I don't see anything at all wrong with it. And there are some people out there also, I will say the other way around, not all negative. There are people out there that are writing it's awesome. I love it, you know. So yeah, I mean I've got a lot of Yeah, I've got a lot of listeners I've seen where they say, well, I don't see a problem with it. I think it's pretty cool. And I've even got some Yeah they're saying it's awesome. I love it,
it's so great. So yeah, everybody's got their opinion and everything. I think it's just getting so like, yeah, let's kill it. And it also shows a disconnect. And I think this is a problem is that when you've got like yourself or the field has a complete disconnect with the general public, that's a problem. That means that you're not connecting with them, that whatever it is you're doing is not something that is really something that is going
to, you know, gain their interest or support. And the general public doesn't know the real background or the history, and they're excited about the show. The show's doing really well. So I think that it's advantageous for us then to figure out, well, how can we plug into this tension and
get feed the public more credible information so they do understand about it. And you know, that's what we've been doing with our shows to what I've been trying to do with my articles on Den of Geek and elsewhere, and that's exciting, you know, you're going back into the history of this as far as you know, the modern history what they say beginning in nineteen forty seven
and the Nathan Twining memo. A lot of people don't you know that I've actually sent that to this So this is fake, This isn't really you know, like, it doesn't seem possible that the Air Force would actually write, you know, flying discs and you know their thoughts of them. What do
you think about that memo in general? Do you think, well, here's the problem that I think what's happened with all of this, you know, hoaxing and fake There's so much that is fake and a hoax out there, and this is why I think, you know, this whole MJ twelve stuff and everything, which I think many of us have demonstrated is extremely dubious. We don't need to fall back on dubious information because there's very credible information out
there. I think that you know, the Air Force Times wrote a story about Project blue Book and in it they talked about the Pentagon Project and they ended it with, you know, this demonstrates the government is interested in unidentified aerial phenomenon and I think that's the whole point that's what we've been arguing out for in the past. And you know, we've got this video at open Mind's TV about the military secrecy and we go over the history of blue Book.
But after blue Book, even though they're denying they're not interested, we're showing that they are. So this dialogue has been that the Air Force concluded there's nothing to it and blah blah blah. But it's not true that everybody in the government or everybody in the Air Force came to that conclusion. This has been a debate since the beginning up until now. And yes, there was a very big contingent that believed that it could be extraterrestrial. They wrote
at least a couple reports. We've got this memo from Twining, we have we know from Rupelt, the guy who ran Project blue Book for the first time, really kind of the guy responsible for getting it rolling, and his accounts of how you know, the first analysis on UFOs that the Air Force looked into, they said it could be extraterrestrial in nature, so they were willing to go down that route. And we have a whole history of people
Fraver included saying I think what I encountered is unworldly. Charles Halt in the Air Force he felt the same way. So yeah, yeah, all good stuff. And we're out of time, aren't we. We are out of time. So thank you so much for joining us again, Martin, Absolutely my pleasure. All right, we will be right back with David Beatty right after this break. Welcome back to the show. I am your host, so Lejandro Rojas, and we have a great guest for the first time,
Dev Baty. Hello. How are you, Hey, Alejandra, I'm doing great, glad to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Yes, I'm so happy to be talking to you because I think what you did is really important and luckily it's doing well. But I guess to begin with, how did you come up with this idea? What compelled you to do it? Well? Obviously for the people that know and follow the topic, you know,
last the last couple of years. December twenty seventeen was when the New York Times article appeared, and you know, I had always been involved in ufology, you know, almost my entire life, and when that article came out, I started doing some research, specifically about the A Tip program and
some of the cases that were being released to the public. Specifically the case with the USS nimics, and there were several articles that were out there on the internet in addition to the New York Times article, and so that was the first you know, kind of inkling of oh wow, that's such a cool story. I wonder what that looked like for those pilots that were flying off of nimets, what did they see? And it kind of sparked my
imagination of how could that be visualized. So I think that those were the first weeks where I started, you know, that inkling of what I could do as a filmmaker. A lot of my past work has not been involving UFOs. It's been involving more nonfiction documentary and other commercial projects. You know, that's my career, and I haven't done a lot with UFO cases, but I think this was the first one. So that's really to answer your
question how I kind of first started the Niamens Encounter film. Mm hmm. Well, what's also great about your film is that you the people you work with. So for instance, and I know it's hard to do because I have so many people calling me seeing if I can help, is to get to the stars to kind of lend a hand, and they did. In that they lent you or let you use their interview with Commander David Fraverer, one of the pilots there, and he did this interview with To the Stars
Arts and Sciences and they allowed you to use that. Yeah, that's correct. Obviously, when I first started, I didn't have any budget, you know. Going back to that, it's this film was not sponsored by anybody, and it didn't, you know, have any angel funders or anything like that. So I had to figure out how I could work on the project
without a big outlay of cash. Specifically in the case of film documentary films, oftentimes their travel involved a lot of research, going to the locations and interviewing the witnesses and so on. Did not have any of that money. And after To the Stars Academy Community of Interest page was posted, they had this really nice interview with Commander David Fraber, you know in the US Navy Pilot and Hero and you know, I was really blown away with his interview.
And in the beginning process where I was thinking how I could put it together, I knew that if I could do some recreations and I could get some Navy footage in addition to his interview, I could probably put something together.
So I reached out to two the Star's Academy. They had a media portals to speak on their website where you could, you know, reach out to them if you had a request, and I did ask if I could use some excerpts from that particular interview and a short film that I was making that you know, it was pretty much not for non not for profit, and then I was going to give for free to the UFO in the you know worldlike community. And I didn't hear anything for a while, and I
was kind of getting disappointed. But then I did get a an email from Carried Along saying that, you know, as long as I didn't just take the whole thing and use it all, you know, copy it, that I could use some excerpts. So that gave me my first start of doing the production. That's awesome, yeah, because that adds so much and into a great interview when you put this together. I guess I know you have spoken recently with Kevin at least I saw, I think on the UFO News
Network he had an interview with him recently. Yeah, I've known Kevin since like the very beginning, when you first came out on Facebook telling the story, and I also have a closed Facebook group that he's a member of.
So since that very beginning, you know, So those very beginning days when I was formulating, you know, what I was going to do with the movie, I brought Kevin in, you know, and I was you know, bouncing ideas off him and specifically showing him the script that I had, you know, the rough draft of the script that I had, asking him, if you know, to look at that for accuracy based on his memory
of the events. So he was very involved in the very beginning. M h. And I guess getting into the events of that are portrayed in your documentary here, I'm not as familiar. I need to interview him and I'm well soon hopefully I'm not as familiar with his role. But essentially he was a radar guy, right and he was so was he one of the first
to spot this on radar? Yeah. Kevin was assigned to the USS Princeton, which is a guided missile carrier guided missile cruiser which you know is with the carrier Straight Group and its role is basically to use this sophisticated radar tracking weapons system one of the most powerful radar tracking systems that the US Navy has, and on that ship is the Combat Information Center that has all of the displays and uh, you know, sensors and weapons guidance systems of the ship
on there. He worked in there. His role primarily was an air intercept controller or ai C. And what they did is, you know, when the planes were in the air, they helped guide those pilots to targets. You know, it is a war fighting vessel, and that's what they mainly did. So they were trained to, you know, look at the air radar and when they had enemies other perhaps adversaries on radar, they could vector
fighters and other planes towards those targets. And Kevin was like a senior chief, which is, you know, in the Navy, he had spent you know a number of years to reach that rank, that enlisted rank, and like in the c I C, he was sort of in charge of that department. He also of note is he graduated from the top gun school, and you know that from the movie, but they also had top gun for the air intercept controllers that were on the ground working with these fighters, and
he participated in that and so he's a top gun as well. Wow, that's cool. So he sees this thing on radar and this is you know, while they're doing their exercises, and it seems like it's a for the Princeton. It's a pretty solid hit. So and correct me and clarifying anything that I miss. So they scramble the jets, including freight here. Let
me profa. I'll get to that great incredibly enough. And you probably have heard this in the week before that event with the jet right, Kevin would hang out there sometimes looking at the radar screens and at night, you know, even if he was off duty. Sometimes he'd be down there in cic and they cap seeing these objects appearing on radar near Catalina Island, and they
would appear almost coming from above sixty thousand feet. They would they can only scan up with a raidar so high in the air, but they would appear, and sometimes groups of like six to ten objects, and oftentimes they would descend down to about twenty four thousand feet, stop and then begin going in a southern direction at approximately one hundred and twenty knots. And it's very unusual because jets, planes and other aircraft that are at twenty eight thousand feet don't
go one hundred and twenty knots. That's like assessana or something, you know. So it was very odd to Kevin, and they took no note of that. These objects didn't appear to be any sort of threat to the carrier, so they were watching them. And this occurred for you know, several days leading up to the actual jets where they saw these objects, not just one, but groups of them. Ye, so at least he was aware that there were unknown objects kind of in the area. But I'm guessing then
this was the first time we're wow, now we've got one nearby. When that I can scramble jets on. Yeah, so on you know. The fourteenth was the November fourteenth was the first day they were going to do an air defense exercise where during this work work up period, this two week work up period or however long it was out there like maybe the whole month that they were going to have the fighter jets launching in the Hawkeye e two planes
launching and in the air. And so Kevin briefed the captain or talked to the captain of the USST. Princeton and said, look, we have one of these objects. Right now, we have these guys that are up there in the jets, we should vector them to go take a look and investigate this thing and see what it is. Yeah, mm hmm. And so and I gathered this from the documentary that the radar plane, So essentially they also send along with these guys playing with some strong radar, so that can
give them some closer real time. I guess, look at what's going on. But that thing was having a problem tracking or finding this object, that's correct. The Hawkeye allows them to get up above the you know, the whole airspace there around the carrier, and it has its own, you know, huge circular radar dish above the aircraft spinning around. I think it's like a twenty foot you know dish up there, and they were having trouble on
tracking it with their radar. But the Princeton's radar in the AEGEUS system, it's called the spy one radar, and they actually were able to track it pretty well. So while the Hawkeyes roll after the fighter's launch and take off is to kind of direct the flight sort of air traffic control, if you will, in the sky, they weren't able to direct the fighters to this
object because they weren't able to track it. So what happened was Princeton contact them after they briefed the captain and said, you know, okay, guys, we're going to take control of these fighter jets. The callson was Fast Eagle. That was the fighter jets, and they're going to We're going to take control of Fast Eagle. So you know, they would be handing off control to Princeton. Kevin Day and his crew on Princeton, so their Fraverer and his Fast Eagle one and his co pilot fast or not co pilot,
but the other plant he is flying with. Yeah, it would be accurate to say wingman. Yeah, like he would be the lead flight and then he would have a wingman that's the second F A T and F with two people. So each jet has two individuals and the pilot and the weapons system officer Wizzo who ride in the back and they man the radar, navigation and
communications system of the aircraft. So aircraft one is is Fraverer and UH and then aircraft two is Fast Eagle, to which I know, at least I've been told by some of the guys that they were not releasing the name of this person. Although I guess in your film we do see the gender. That's right. The gender was confirmed, Yes, and from what I understand,
that's accurate too. Yeah. One of the one back in the beginning, one of the friends of Dave Fravor who wrote an article named uh Francesco Paco charicis his call sign, mentioned that the wingman was she and I kind
of no one had noticed that. A lot of the news media was were saying that Lieutenant Commander Jim Clean Slate Clean being his call sign was the wingman, which is technically correct because Jim was writing in the backseat of the second JAT and the jet itself is they're both wings and if they're in the wingman jet, so it was a female on the front and Jim slight in the back of that wingman. Faaighteen mm hm, Yeah, we don't know.
We don't know who was in the back of Commander Favor's jet. That name has not been released, right, and I don't believe her name has been released either now right, She uh Paco told me she does not want to come forward, she wants nothing to do with this, and the Molement wigged her out. According to Paco, Yeah, yeah, and so at least, yeah, I had heard it was a female pilot. In fact, I think I was given the name. I think I knew, but told
Yeah, they're not sharing that information, so that's interesting. Yeah, it's been released on the internet. I've seen it, but I think I have two Yeah, out of respect to them, I mean they are me too, us military heroes, and if someone doesn't want their name used, I'm
all for that, exactly. I agree one hundred percent with you. So they're racing towards the object, and they actually had a hard time getting a visual at first, right, and even before they got there, there was another pilot from the Marine Detachment, the Marine Air Wing of the carrier. He was veactored into the same area that this UFO or you know UAP was reported, and he noticed a disturbance on the surface of the ocean down,
you know, twenty thousand feet below him. They started seeing spotting this. The sea was pretty calm, so it would have been a blue sea, and he's seeing like this whitewater thing like on the surface of the sea. And his his name was Lieutenant Colonel Douglas Cheeks Kurth Cheeks as his call sign, and so he reported seeing that that water disturbance is what they described it as kind of waves, roiling sort of thing, and he didn't see anything
more. He was kind of called off, they said, you know, return to base or whatever, as they had fast eagles approaching at the very same time. So when fast Eagle Commander Fraber and his wingman arrived at that location at about twenty thousand feet roughly, I don't know, they might have been like fifty miles from the carrier at that point fifty sixty I think they saw this same whitewater disturbance, which has been described in various ways as being
maybe one hundred meters in the beginning. Some of the articles set one hundred two hundred feet. Commander Fraber has used the reference of a seven thirty seven jet, which is maybe a couple hundred feet in length. In a recent interview, he even went out as far as to it almost had like the appearance of a cross, like if you looked at a plane that was underwater, you would see kind of the wings, you know, underwater. He said, it didn't, it wasn't that it would almost look like not a
perfect circle. And they described it as sort of like what maybe a sea mount under a mountain that's just below the surface of the ocean would look like if waves were breaking over it. So they didn't say ever say at least I haven't heard that they saw something under the water. They just described this
white water on the surface. M yeah, and then as favor now at and maybe you don't at what point then I think they were at the same altitude that they didn't drop or did they need to drop lower to be able to see the tic tac you know, when they arrived on the scene, they were at around twenty thouved thousand feet according to the records you know that have been produced, and in my film, when you first see that white
water, that's about what it would look like. And using the CGI, the camera is pretty physically real, so I can place that camera at the same altitude and look at that you know foot Yeah, so it's kind of you realize that that when you start visualizing it. Wow, that thing looked like, you know, the size of a you know, a thumbnail or
something like viewed from your eye height at the floor, it's tiny. And that's what I love about the film is that it gives you a better perspective of what they're looking at, because I don't think people realize how difficult. Maybe if you're flying in a plane and you look at the ocean and try to spot a boat or something. I mean, it's it's it's hard. Yeah, really in that little whitewater would have been real small. Probably a
curiosity to that. And I know that when they arrived, they were looking for some type of unknown and unknown aircraft. Imagine you know what's going through their mind. They don't know that this is a you know, quote unquote UFO. They think it's an aircraft that they're sent to identify, and they think maybe it's drug runners and assessma, maybe it's some lost you know, pilot out of California that got you know, going in the wrong direction or
something. And they're thinking, we're looking for an aircraft. And then they see this thing in the water and they start thinking maybe that's the aircraft. And now it crashed and it's in the water. So they almost began thinking this could be like a certain rescue type thing and that that's kind of when Fraver decided to go down and take a little look. And I think, you know, the exact timing, they may have seen some movement from that
altitude. You could imagine, like you said, seeing something from twenty two dosted feet that's forty seven feet long would be difficult, but it could be that they had descended, you know, down from twenty thousand. So now they're closer. And I believe that that's when Fraverer, you know, picked it up in his back seater, when they first saw notice movement over the
surface of this disturbance. You know, they're staring at that and they see this object that appears white coming into their field of view that seems to be moving radically over this disturbance. And we do have one more piece of information that I wanted to ask you about that I passed step on that I accidentally skipped. I shouldn't have, because at least there was reason for them to be a little on edge because of a strange question that they got en route,
Yeah, to the area, which maybe you could cover that. Sure, yeah, that's a good point. We forgot about that. So as they're on route, Commander Fravor of course, being you know, a senior pilot with lots of experience, the wing man or wing woman was new a relatively new pilot and they get a call from Princeton coming on the radio saying, you know what you know, fast Eagle report your load out and meaning you know, what are your missiles? What are your air to air missile
load out or your cannon? Highly unusual in a training scenario, and I mean Commander Favorite said, well, we have these training missiles that really are just empty tubes with no propellant that have seekert heads on used for training, and they're not going to come off the jet, so pretty much nothing. And I know that that in the pilot report onto the Stars Academy. The co the wingman was sort of concerned about this at that point, you know.
They she thought that maybe they were looking at some type of terrorist attempt or something like that. You know. So, you know, this was two thousand and four, so it was on the minds of a lot of people that terrorists were using airplanes, and I know that they became concerned when they were asked about what kind of weapons they had. Are you aware if either of or any of the four in those two jets were aware of the tic TACs or at least the unknowns that were spotted in the area. When
they went out there, go ahead. It's my understanding that they were not that when they were vectored or given a real world vector to intercept an unknown aircraft, that they didn't know anything about what had happened before, you know, on the princedance with Kevin Day. That's a good question because I don't I don't remember if that's been asked specifically, if they were given a briefing
at all before. I don't know. Yeah, I'm curious too because another researcher, you may know him, Robert Powell, who I've had on the show, and he's been looking into nimit. He when he asked for information when he was talking to Navy press, he had mentioned the tic tac Ufo and they said, oh, yeah, we know about the tiktac Ufo. And he was shocked that this was common knowledge. But of course it could have been this case or something else that made it as popular. So yeah,
so I was curious of that. So essentially, and we're gonna have to take a break here, but essentially, as they're flying in to examine the area, they really they don't know what they're looking for. They get this request on whether they have weapons or not, which kind of makes things a little more strange. But they don't know what they're going to be looking for. Yeah, that's right, and they don't know what it is yet.
So if you can imagine, they just been told they wish they had weapons, you know, and they're going towards sometimes the unknown aircraft that's not identified with a you know, iff they call it identified friend or foe or any kind of radio that's been they've been able to communicate with this craft. So they're unsure, you know. And I think that the wingman was a little frightened by the whole thing. Yeah, I can understand that. That's
really interesting. So we've got to take a break right now. For those of you listening on the podcast, it will be just a short musical interlude and we'll be right back with David Beatty. Welcome back to Open minds UFO Radio. I'm your host Alejandro Rojas, and we have the pleasure of having Dave Beattie on, who created this of course, great documentary on the Nimics
UFO case from two thousand and four outside of San Diego. And we're at the point where Fraver has gotten close and now he sees the tic tac object. And one interesting thing that you just mentioned, and that is in your documentary, is that this object wasn't just sitting there, No, it was moving around it radically, you know. And I think that's the first thing that Dave noticed, was that it was behaving in a way that didn't make sense. It was kind of moving back and forth, you know, around
this disturbance. He interpreted it that this thing was checking out the underwater disturbance like it was. You know, he kind of described it, this disturbance as looking like a seven thirty seven. He said, this thing was by the wing on the right side, kind of went up by the cockpit and was kind of like checking out this water disturbance. And again, you know, I don't think he saw it in Iraq. You know, again, he's never said that he saw this white tic tac looking object going in the
water or doing anything else other than just flying above it. You know, I know that I know that the Wingman jet they reported seeing the object a little higher altitude, like transitioning across their field of view at maybe two thousand feet. That's when the first time they picked it up. But Dave Freber went down much lower, like from twenty thousand. He told his wingmen, you know, stay here in high cover. I'm gonna go check this out.
So he just takes off and begins diving down closer and closer to the water surface. And I can I can go keep going if you want,
or you want to go for it. Yeah, So okay. So he's going down and I believe that it was like maybe around ten thousand feet or so, or maybe a little less than that that this object suddenly seems to take notice of him, like it begins pointing at him, and again he describes it as a white porcelain like tic tac, you know, like a capsule with no discernible wings, propulsion, any kind of you know, engines or any anything else. He did at one point describe a couple of little
appendages that he said he saw in the video later. So anyways, he's watching it. It seems to like turn and point at his and then begin coming up, and he is passing it on the like if it would be on his three o'clock basically the right side of his jet. He's passing it and he begins a slow circle the object. It's coming up and it begins mirroring his circle. So now if you can imagine a big circle in the sky, he's on one side of the circle and this object is coming up
on the other and it's basically mirroring his turn rate. And as this Doug fight begins with the UFO, So if you can imagine two fighter jets, they do the same thing. They're trying to get on each other's tail. And it's almost an aggressive move when you have a turning circle like that, because it's like this other object's trying to get on my tail, and in
you know, I guess in fighter tactics, that's what you do. So, you know, I think he was kind of concerned with this, you know, right, you know, and it reminds me of Nick Pope, and I forget why this might have been after Chicago hair. Nick Popo, of course, used to work for the Ministry of Defense investigating UFOs, had brought up on this Fox News interview that just kind of threw it out there
while they were asking about UFOs. There's been dogfights and the host was like, what dog fights and he says, yes, essentially kind of a cat and mouse in the air. Note that there's been, you know, an exchange of fire or anything. And the host seemed absolutely shocked by that. But this is a perfect example of what he was talking about. Yeah, you know, if you do some research, you will find you know that there are cases of dog fights, you know, some very famous ones.
This one, you know, remarkable in the case that it kind of played out in front of all these pilots. You know, there are the four eyewitnesses and then the radar our witnesses back on the ships are all looking at this intercept happen and they're all listening. Even the USS Princeton can hear talk back in their control room of these pilots, so they're hearing the radio cause these concern cause of you know, they basically have contact, you know,
they're engaged with something. Again, it would be wonderful to have those recordings, which we don't from from what I understand of those radio calls. But
you know, this object begins mirroring him, and they're coming down. He's coming down in altitude and at some point he decides that he's gonna take an aggressive movement to try to bring this object on his nose, and so he turns his jet rapidly to the right and dives down to gain speed and momentum and quickly bring the nose of his jet to point ahead of this object, this forty seven foot long tic tac, which is approximately a mile away from
him at this point. And in my film, you know, there's some very good visuals that I did recreations where I, you know, calculated those distances and put the objects in perspective of what it looked like a like a
mile away across the circle. And so as he does this, almost immediately the object, you know, reacts to him by turning towards him again, one end of it turns towards him, and it just basically flies past them, like he says, hypersonic, like it was gone in like a blink of an eye, like one second, it's there and it's gone past beyond the horizon. And they all saw this happen, you know, off ward, these pilots saw this thing just like keep gone, and they're just left
going did that just happen? M hm. And so then of course you know they're they're going to call you know, I think what they did before, you know, they laughed, they because people asked me this and I didn't have it in the movie. They're like, what happened to the thing in the ocean? Where did that? What happened to the the UFO and the ocean? And I'm like, well, they went back to the disturbance and it was gone. There was no trace of it on the surface of
the ocean after this dog fight. Next, the next thing that happens is they call back to the Princeton and the Princeton radar, you know, the air air traffic control poison I believe, says sir, You're not going to believe this, but that object on that you were tracking, it's now at your cat point. And that was surprising because the cat point is not known by anyone. First of all, it's a classified coordinate that the fighter jets
basically go to after they launch. They would go to the cat point to form up with other planes and get ready to go off and do their mission, and you know, when they're in, when they're done with their mission, they sometimes fly back to their cat point before they land in the carrier. So the fact that this object was basically sitting on their cat point was a little disconcerting to the pilots, like, how did they know where our cap point was? And how far away was the cat point? It's my
understanding, was about forty miles away. And that's the other problem. How did it get to the cat point that fast? You know, in a jet it's not that far, but this thing was like there apparently like within seconds. So and the cap point, Yeah, forty miles away is pretty far. And for you know, this thing to choose any place to go to, Yeah, that's pretty weird. Yeah, I know that. You
know, a white capsule, how I mean it makes it. It begs a lot of questions as to how it knew where the cat point was it was? Could it listen into you know, whoever was controlling it was obviously intelligently control. Could they listen into military radio, you know, secure radio? Was this a cap point that they had met at earlier in the day
when they began their training. That's my understanding them they can have more than one cat point, but David Fraber just said the cat point, so I'm assuming that, Yeah, yeah, correct, they could have observed if they had gone there before and loitered there for a while before they you know, it could have You're absolutely correct, you know, so fascinating, and you know, what is really fascinating about this case is like Nick Pope said,
or like we were referring to earlier, especially if you look at Blue Book, because really that's the biggest record we have of military cases. Do you see this over and over again even with other militaries in Chili in Brazil. You know, where an object is spotted, jets are scrambled, They kind of have a little bit of a cat and mouse before the object just shoots off at an amazing speed nineteen fifty two over Washington, d C. Same
thing. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really interesting to look at a craft that doesn't seem to have any type of propulsion system based on conventional aviation and aeronautics. It doesn't have flight surfaces, control surfaces, nassials that you know might be a jet engine, propellers, you know, it doesn't seem these objects oftentimes don't seem to have anything, yet they're able to jet away at like unbelievable speeds, you know, let alone hover and fly around.
So you have probably seen the executive report that George Knapp leaped through Klas, and that's a pretty extraordinary document. I guess my first question will be, uh, what is your understanding of the origins of that document. Well, again, you know George, you know, revealed that document on his iteam KLAS investigation. You know, my understanding is that that document was produced at a briefing that was set up with mister Reed Senter Reid. I mean,
I guess that I would say it came from a tip. It either came from a tip or it came from Bass and you know Big OL's company during the d I A contract the AWSAP program that George also revealed. I think that those those investigations and study were done during that program. M h. Yeah. From what I understand, it was written by the military for the
military. It's a term and I but what the reason I ask is, it's it's fascinating in that I know Fravor speaks to it and says, you know, that's accurate, and that there was a sub in the area as part of the strike group that didn't hear anything under the water, which is kind of strange because they visually visually saw something. But what's interesting about that report is some of the assumptions that are made, like they they speculate.
I shouldn't say they don't assume, because they do call it out as speculation, but they seems in the report they feel pretty strongly that the potential that something was under the water and it just might not have been able to be picked up by their Yeah, well that's very very perceptive, and there was a whole discussion about that, I think last week in my Facebook group, I brought up the point that why are there two observables listed in the executive
summary that don't seem to be attached to any witnesses. I said, the other observables flight characteristics of these unknown seem to be backed up by Commander Fraverer and Kevin Day and the other witnesses that were there that day. But there's these two, one being that the object could cloak said possibly cloak and become invisible to the eye and radar systems. And the other one, as you mentioned, was that it possibly could operate under sea and avoid detection. So,
yeah, it's kind of interesting. I would love to know how they came to that conclusion. Maybe it was based on the fact that the submarine, the USS Louisville, did not hold sonar contract contact on that day. I'm not sure. M hm. Yeah, that they're very strong statements. I guess maybe because the hawkeye couldn't see it, and why they think it had some sort of stealth property. Of course it had very smooth it was like a tic tack. So I don't know, maybe them rounded and yeah
or something if if they thought it could cloak. Obviously somebody must have reported that it disappeared and maybe you know, it just took off at a high speed and they thought it disappeared. But it's an interesting, uh observation for sure. Yeah, go ahead. So so you just mentioned the hawkeye. Yah one of the new witnesses that came forward, And I've vetted these these guys pretty well. I mean, they're telling me a story. Obviously I don't have proof, but I know who they are, and they did check
their backgrounds. One of the people that came forward said that he was in the eat to Hawkeye, you know that was on scene. There may have been one or two that were in the air that day, and he said he told me that they saw the tic tac, which is not in any other report. He said that at one point in the flight, everyone in that crew saw an object that sort of for a few seconds it formed up on their hawkeye and then took off at the same day. Yeah. Wow, And I said, well, you know, I asked him a few
questions. He's very reluctant to talk to me. He he claims that after the flight, when they landed in the Hawkeye, that he was he and the crew were taken into a secure air on the ship sort of deep briefed about this event, told that it didn't happen, don't talk about it, and he says he had to sign a non disclosure agreement, and so the fact that he was even admitting that he would is there. Said you know, he couldn't first of all go on the record, and he didn't want
to talk about it too much based on that, hmm. Yeah. So it's not the strongest primary witness, but quite interesting that this guy is saying that, you know, the whole crew of the E two Hawkeye saw the tic TAC h that, yeah, because there's more eyewitnesses than to this object. Yeah yeah, and there are none of the reports. That's strange to me a little bit because I know that both you know, a TIP and
TTSA and all of the groups that were studying this. In fact, going back to Paco Cherici from Fighter Sweep, he he told me that he when he wrote his article, he said that he used the Naval Intelligence Services NIS report that was classified, and he thought that the executive summary was very similar to the ANI asked report that he used. Oh that is really interesting. Yeah, it's interesting. But in none of those reports does it say that
the Hawkeye crew saw anything. But then again, this guy said they had to sign NDA, so maybe they kept their mouth shut. You know, there's another reason too that they might not have spoken. I'll get into that. But what were you going to mention just now? Well, the original person that came forward with the Wallbanger squadron is willing to you know, talk and tell his story. His name is P. J. Hughes. He
was on the nimits that day. His job was an aviation technician and he describes it as like, you know, when the Hawkeyes take off, they basically get the planes ready for the air crews to board them and so on. They make sure that all maintenance concerns are a dressed and the radios and the crypto radios are programmed properly, you know, so that the pilots just get on and are ready to fly the mission. He says that when his
friends Hawkeye landed that day, they got off the plane left. He took the secure data bricks they call him off the plane, and these are highly classified intelligence gathering drives that contain data link information. It's like a type of radar stuff that the strike group uses, very sophisticated, and his job was to take him downstairs to his shop, put him in a in the in the Hawkeyes shop secure safe. He even described the safe as being like a
safe that requires two people to open. So he they logged the serial numbers of these drives in and hour or so later, there's a knock at his door in the shop and his commanding officers there with what he describes are two United States Air Force officers or personnel, and they want the hard drive, and so PJ says, okay, they have to get another guy to open up the safe. They give him this hard drive and the guy says, sign them out to me. The commanding officer he's like, sign out the
hard drive to me because you won't be getting him back. And the commanding officer and the two Air Force guys leave and the last thing you ever saw them. So that's a very interesting story that has not been told by any of the previous reports we've seen. That is a really interesting story. And what's interesting also, I mean that that's a super interesting of course, and
there's so much to get into, and we're boad out of time. But the last dropping and dropping that bomb on you right now, Yeah, you're blowing my mind. But by the way people said, oh me being mistaked, I go, he's like Dave, he goes, I know what navy flight suits look like. I know what army flight suits look like. These were United States States Air Force flight suits with insignia at them. I did not mistake who I was looking at. That's what PJ told me. So
and I think that makes sense. I mean, it makes perfect sense. Of course, this has been in their purview for a long time, so you know, and that's that's the hard part where we've all been looking at who's looking at this? Where did these records reside? And we haven't answered that question. But that makes sense. Well, you know, going back to this case, Commander Fraber has you know, said over and over that no one ever said not to talk, no one ever took anything, no
one ever even mentioned this. They just made fun of us. This was not classified. You know, they made a joke of it when we got back. That's been portrayed over and over and over. But all of a sudden, I'm hearing this other alternate story that wait, people were told it didn't happen. Sign here, don't ever talk about it. Where's the hard drive? You know, the air Force is here to take them, you know, like that's kind of a different story. But again, you know,
it is a story. So but what isn't is you know, and this is in the executive report, and they made a big deal about it, is this high level of ridicule that these guys faced when they got back, yeah to the aircraft carrier, Which is right, I mean a little bit telling, and it's disappointing, but it also demonstrates very strongly what we've heard from other military and stuff is why someone would be hesitant to talk about
anything. Yeah, that's true because from my understanding, and I think you probably know this as well, at least one of the pilots or one of the people involved maybe more, got extremely upset about this ridicule. Yeah, that's right. I mean, I mean we've seen it. You know, if you follow the subject, you see it in the media a lot. I was kind of disheartened by the Fox News one interview that they did where they started out with the kind of mocking you know, UFO alien implant stuff,
and then they cut directly to Commander Fravor these military heroes. Those guys didn't see that. I mean, they're sitting there in a studio and they're really being sort of mocked. Really, and you may know the show that I'm talking about, but when they I think when they got back on the ship, the same thing happened. There was the tinfoil hats and like jokes about the X Files and Little Green Men and yeah, it makes you want to kind of just like not talk about it, you know, mm hmm.
And especially in these you know, these very high testaasterone sort of yeah environments. Could you hear cops say the same thing often? And because we like to, you know, guys are often making fun of each other and stuff. And although it's fun in games, it doesn't you know, guys have feelings and they don't want to be the butt of ridicule or because this is yeah, if this is your career and you have a security clearance,
you're flying multi million dollar aircraft, that are armed to the teeth. You know, you're the guy that saw the UFO. Huh right, well right, that could follow you. So it takes a lot of courage to stop forward. And most of these guys are retired and that's why they're able to do that. I can see why somebody that's active duty would just like shut their mouth and I'll ever want to talk about it because of that possible career ending move, you know. Mm hmm. Well, thank you so much.
We're out of time, but I want you to share with people where they can find you, where they can find more information. So for instant the Facebook group you mentioned, what's it called and how can people participate? Yeah, reach out to me on Facebook, Dave C. Batty. You can message me there. The website is www dot the NIMTS Encounter with ans
dot com and also the NIMENS Encounters on Facebook. You can find information about the film and some research I did and some of the documents we talked about today. That is so awesome. Thank you so much for all of this great work that you're doing in this incredible video, and thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you alhandro. I appreciate it. Thank you so much to Dave Baty for being on the show. You've got to see his video if you haven't seen it yet, really, you can just
google the Nimics Encounter YouTube. That's what I do usually to find it, and it's got one point four million hits, so you know it's very popular, so it pops right up. But you can also do that in Facebook and look for the Nimts Encounters dot com and find out more about this great video and some of the stuff that he's into following up with witnesses and so he's done some great work. Was a great pleasure to have him on the show. I also want to let you know about a couple other things in
the show links. You can see my Patreon site and that's where you can find some of the other stuff I'm doing. Of course, my open Mind stat TV stuff you can find that there, but my Den of Geek stories and others, and sometimes I'll link to those stories in from open mindstat tv as well, so you'll be able to find some. But if you go look for Alejandro t Rojas on Patreon, you'll find all of that stuff and
more. And I also remind want to remind you about the UFO Congress, so we're still working on the Congress itself, but there'll be new information up shortly. But the store has so much cool stuff in it, So go to store dot Ufocongress dot com or just UFO Congress dot com or find the link below depending on how you're listening or viewing this, and you'll be able
to check it out. We've got these cool pocket watches, We've got some baby clothes, all kinds of stuff that we're putting up in the next day or two, so check that out. Really cool stuff. Plus we got to pay the bill, so bye bye bye, and we will ship ship ship and you'll have some cool UFO and Alien products. Otherwise, I want to thank Martin Willis from Podcast UFO for joining us for the news as usual,
I want to thank Caleb Hanks for the opening and close music. I want to thank Systematics for the bumper music, and of course, as usual, I want to thank you the listener for being here once again. We'll have another great show next week. Until then, Audios, mood Chutchos, and you must