Hello, and welcome to over Mind UFO Radio. I am your host, Alejandro Rojas, and I am not joined by Martin rolling Stone Willis because he is on the road and for some reason we can't get the connection working. He was going to talk to us, and actually he did for a little while, but something happened and it became a mess, unfortunately. But he says hi to everybody, and I'll mention some of the things he might.
Well, he did tell me about Art Bell. Art Bell is on the air, so he Martin's show podcast UFO is on the Dark Matters digital network, which is created essentially to host Art Bell when he came back on the air, and so Art Bell is back, Dark Matters is friends of ours. They replay our show. In fact, I think we were kind of a placeholder in the spot where Art Bell was going to be. So hopefully they'll keep playing us, because it's nice to be affiliated with that network.
But if not, a you can always come to Open Minds not TV to hear it. But Martin says he listened and that the sound quality was incredible. So Keith, their engineer. I had spoken with him and he said they were using some new technology and I think this was in my art Bell story about how they were using some new technology, and I guess it sounded crystal clear. They had some tests with people all over the country, so last night was like a test show, and then the real show starts tonight.
So Martin said that. He also mentioned that I guess they got somehow a ad or a mention in Times Square, So that's kind of crazy, kind of cool. Somebody must be an art Bell fan there that handles that. It looked like it was a PR Newswire kind of release scrolling thing, so that's kind of cool. So that's great. Otherwise, I guess i'll tell you you get about our guest. Our guest is really cool. Tonight it is Kurt Collins, and we'll talk to Kurt about how he got into
UFOs. But what's great about Kurt is that he's a very careful researcher and a bit of a skeptic, I mean in a lot of cases. But he'll talk about why he got interested into UFO research. He was part of the Roswell Research or Roswell's research group, so I probably mentioned his name several times when we talked about the Roswell slides. But we will talk a little bit about that, but not too much. We're going to talk more about another case that he's gotten into. In fact, he started a website and
really got involved when he was investigating the cash Landrum UFO siding. This is a really cool sighting that took place many years ago where three people, two women and a young man, who came across this UFO on a remote road in Texas and this thing like burned them. It somehow created these physiological effects that they had. They got sick, really terrible, their caur got extremely
hot. We'll talk about some of the strangeness that then floated away above and flew off, but there were a bunch of helicopters supposedly following it, and this whole thing is extremely mysterious. So we're going to talk to Kurt about that and his research, which is really great. In fact, he created a website called Blue Blurry Lines where he has all of this research and he's got a lot of great stuff on his website. So we're going to talk
about him. I'm really excited to talk about him, and like I thought, you know, the interview turned out really great, so I think you guys are going to enjoy this, But first talking about UFO news. So UFO's in the news. I finally wrote up my story on these Arctic UFO pictures. You might have seen these images and they have gotten all over the news, especially in the UK. Like I said before, you know,
we talked about this last week. But the UK it's really into UFOs and they have a lot of UFO stories and this is one that they had quite a bit of information about. So what happened is this guy named Alex mus Stretta found these pictures, he says, from he got him from anonymous European source. Then someone told him that these pictures were also posted in a French magazine called Top Secret. He did say he went and looked and said,
yeah, indeed they are the same pictures. He then asked Greenwald and wrote to Greenwald John Greenwald of the Black Vault dot com and said will you post these pictures? And he hoped that Greenwald and others could help him find more about the images. He also wrote what he knew about them. He says that his anonymous source told him that the photos were taken from a United States Navy submarine. The location was between Iceland, and jan Mayan Island in the
Atlantic Ocean. Jan Mayan, I guess belongs to Norway, but we have a map here you'll see it's close to the Antarctic and you know, out there in the middle of nowhere, all by itself. But this was supposedly in March of nineteen seventy one when these they took these pictures. The navy sub was the USS Tripeng. There was an admiral on board, he says, called Dean Reynolds Sackett, and another officer, John Kilka, who supposedly
was a guy who spotted these UFOs in the periscope. Greenwald looked into it and he found that indeed the Trappeng was in that area in March nineteen seventy one, that Sackett and Kilco were also on board. So the beginning of the end this investigation looked really good. So what they wanted to do is
get a hold of Sacket and Kilka. They enlisted the help of Steve Marillo, and this is a guy who runs the UFO and Paranormal Research Society in Los Angeles, so he used to hold the be in charch of the MOUF on meetings out in Los Angeles before Denise Marcel. We found that out, you know recently when we interviewed Denise. But now he wanted to expand the group into more paranormal so he has this meetup about paranormal stuff. The reason
they contacted him is that he's a former Navy pilot. Well, Marilla was able to get contact information for Sacket and Kilka. Marilla contacted Sacket, and Mistretta contacted Kilka and the guy said, yeah, we were in the Tripang at that time in that area, just like John Greenwald had found. But they said we did not see anything strange, nor to their knowledge, did anybody else see anything strange. So they said it's not true that Kilka saw
these things and took pictures of them. They thought the pictures were strange and didn't know what were in the pictures, but it wasn't them. So Mistretta says he's convinced that they were telling the truth, and he says now that he's confident in saying that the Tripang was not involved with these photographs. So that's kind of a bummer that, you know, that part did not pay mo Ounta and some of the information that came with the photos is not accurate.
John Greenwall did some more searching because he felt that the images in the photos kind of looked like zeppelins, and he found that in the early nineteen hundred, indeed, they did use these large balloons, the Navy did, and he found images. I also found an image where there was a large kind of cigar shaped balloon, but also kind of a weirder kind of V shaped one, which we do see in these images. So really it seems like these balloons are what's in the images. But the images are really good.
They're definitely from a periscope, you can tell that, and it looks like they're using these things for target practice and they're firing on them. Whether or not these pictures were from the early nineteen hundreds or nineteen seventies, it's hard to say they are. And you know, they're great pictures. They're in color. I guess it's possible they were colorized, but to take a picture and look, so the question is are they a complete hoax? You
know, is or what's going on with these pictures? And they're still looking into them. In fact, Mastretta is gonna speak tomorrow at Marillo's Paranormal Group to talk more about this in Los Angeles and at open mindsat TV and our story on this. I have a link to his meetup, so if you want to go and you're in the LA area, you can find out more
information at openminds dot TV. What else I wrote about this, and Greenwald agrees, is that what's disappointing is that the media coverage has not included the investigation. All it says is that here's some great pictures they supposedly come from the navy. Is this proof of aliens? You know, real sensationalistic type of information and headlines, And it's unfortunate because I think the real story here is a great investigation that was done by Mistretta and Greenwald and Marilla, and
it demonstrates that UFO researchers are not just a bunch of goofballs. A lot of them are careful researchers looking for the truth. So I think it's frustrating that the news stories about this did not cover that those dirty, rotten scoundrels. No, they just I think that the media, as we've talked about before, should do their due diligence around this. So we've talked about it
before. In fact, last week, we talked about the Welsh government talking about kleing, you know, answering a UFO question and cling on and the media covering that and you know it allows them to kind of make fun of everything. And in fact, Nick Pope had tweeted that, you know, this was the sort of tactics he used when he worked for the UK government looking for UFOs. And we interviewed Nick Pope about this, and you can
see that interview on the open Minds TV utube page. You can also see this at open Mind and this is on our latest UFO report, the open Mind UFO Report videos that we do we try to do weekly and we posted one Friday with an interview with Nick Pope talking about how you know, he made fun of UFOs and not because they felt the whole subject was ridiculous. On the contrary, he says that they felt, you know, that this topic was very important. So it's a great interview we got. You can
even see Nick Pope speaking some klingon in another story. I think this is a great one too. This is some Turkish pilots who saw UFOs. So a Turkish paper called Sabah wrote a story about these two pilots that say they believe in UFOs, and they say the reason why is because they've seen UFOs.
So one of these pilots talks about a flight he made from Osaka to Istanbul, and he says along the way they saw this bright light and that this brite was so incredibly intense they couldn't look at it directly, and that there were other pilots that saw this as well, and because of this sighting, that's why he believes in the UFOs. They said they did talk to the tower, and the tower said it didn't know what it was that they
had seen, or along those lines. I must admit that I had to use Google Translate because I often, you know, you guys know this. I will look at international stories and use Google Translate to find some more UFO stories like this one a great one, but you know, I'm sure a lot is lost in translation. Another pilot in a story, he says in October of nineteen eighty nine, he was flying from Zurich to the Turkish town
of Antalia when he saw he said, he was over Yugoslavian airspace. They saw some weird objects at about two thousand meters, that it was a light cluster that was several different colors. He said the primary colors, so I'm assuming he means red, yellow, and blue. He said they were larger than a normal plane than They called the Istanbul Tower and they said they didn't see it on radar. Then the multicolor lights rose to forty four thousand feet,
turned into a white ball of light and then disappeared. So another really interesting sighting. And what's just cool about these sightings is, you know, pilots are up in the sky on a regular basis, looking at stuff, seeing the night skies, seeing the skies. So that's why I think it's important when pilots see something. You know, they're more used to watching the sky, so I think that they their testimony when it comes to UFO reports
is important. Someone who disagrees isn't. A man by the name of Jim Oberg, and he writes for space dot com. You see his stories on MSNBC, and he writes for a lot of places on space. He's a
space expert journalist. He's been in the business for decades. A bit of a UFO skeptic, but what's great is he's into the topic and he reads our stories and others, he commented, he said, he said, and your reason for thinking this story was significant, without pride providing a daytime or location of it, was what exactly, especially on an air route passing close
to the Baccanor Cosmodrome. Well, mister Oberg, I think it's obvious, I said, I responded, and I said, I think it's it's obvious to our readers, and I'm sure it is to you as well, that reports from pilots are really interesting. Of course, we don't always have all the data, so we can go back and research and do this, you know, thorough investigation. A lot of times most UFO stories are anecdotal, but still these are pilots, so I think it's important. I think it's
certainly worth noting and sharing what these people discovered. Obviously, the Turkish News felt that way, and so did I. He does make a good point, and he could have made this point without sounding like such a grouch. I've told him before you often sound kind of grouchy, Jym. But his point is that the route from Asia to Turkey would take you past Koztstan,
and in Kosetstan is the backa Noor Cosmodrome. And this Cosmodrome is where they the Russians launch a lot of rockets, so I assume he is suggesting that it could be rockets that these pilots had seen. Now, knowing pilots myself, typically they fly the same route route uh, day in and day out, you know, those routes change, but they'll they'll fly the same route
for a long time. And these pilots are probably used to flying past the Cosmodrome or in the vicinity, and I would assume that they've seen rocket launches before, so they wouldn't confuse them with that, especially over all of these years. However, it's a possibility, so mister Oberg certainly makes a good point. It's worth pointing out that the cos you know, the Cosmodrome is somewhat you know, on that route, So thank you for pointing that out, mister Oberg, if you did do it in such a kind of a
snippy manner. But he's a grouchy old guy. You know, that's old guys. I hope you know old guys. That makes me think I kind of think that old guys kind of come into two gat categories. They're either really grouchy or really silly like and they'll they use puns and for a man, and I think a lot of you goofy guys out there, I'm a goofy guy. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. And the older you get, the more you start using puns and laughing at puns and liking
puns and becoming punny. So old men are punny. So I think this is something that us guys should think of well as we age, is what kind of man are we going to turn into? Are we going to be one of these gratchy old guys who is just a stupid kids? Get out of my way. You know you've ran into these guys, you know what I'm talking about. Or we're gonna be the silly old guy. And everybody loves the silly old guy. And that's what I want to be. That's
really when it comes down to it. When I grow up, I want to be one of the silly, funny old guys. So I think I'm headed in that direction. But this field can be so contentious and some of you, some of you people listening quite frankly right now, can be such jerkys when you comment, and you know, so the people who comment on social media can be so mean that I may just get completely cynical and into
one of those grouchy old guys. But then again, the vast, vast majority of the listeners are really cool people like you all listening right now, and who come up and say hi at conferences and will send us a nice note occasionally, and you're the ones that I love to death, and you're you're my salvation. You're the reason that I'm probably going to be the goofy
guy. So we got way off on a tangent. But being that the UFO field, especially when it comes to reachers, researchers and stuff, is so full of old guys, I think that that topic somewhat pertains still. But let's go ahead and talk to a younger guy. He's not so much old. Kirk Collins, our interviewee, and speaking of someone who's headed to old guy in that direction is Martin Willis, who unfortunately we had problems and couldn't connect, but thank you anyway, Martin. And of course he has
catch UFO. He's actually driving and he's near New York City and he's driving to go visit Ray Stanford, who's going to be the guy He's going to interview on Wednesday, so you could check that out on the Art Belt Dark Matters Network on Wednesday. So that's what's going down people. That's the news, the UFO news. You can find more at Openminds dot tv. But without further ado, let's speak with Kirk Collins. I am very excited.
I know, and I always make fun of myself. I always say I'm so very excited to have someone on the show, and I was excited last week, I was excited the week before, and I'm excited this week to have Kurt Collins on the show. Hello, Kurt, Hello, I was wondering just as far as titles go. You know, it seems in the past you've talked about how you haven't been in this long, but I think of you as a UFO researcher. Would you mind if I called you that? No, that's a that's as good a title as any. Yeah,
let's do that. Great, because really you are I think so. But let's get into kind of how you got involved with this stuff, and and for people who don't know about you and your workout, they're going to learn a lot more about that. I've mentioned you on the show several times before, especially in regards to the Roswell slides. But yeah, we'll get into all of this to begin with. I guess let's talk about when you did start, you know, diving into all of this and what inspired that.
Well, there was an initial childhood interest in UFOs and all sorts of mysterious things. There's there. You know, I grew up in the UH in the sixties, and there were a lot of things happening, you know, and I wasn't aware of, like the the Condon comedee in Blue Book shutting down those sort of things. But that like the and and some of the things also in the seventies, like you know, certainly the news coverage of the Travis Walton case and and here in Mississippi the Pasca Google abduction case.
That was you know, that was huge news locally and in nationally as well. So there were there were a lot of things and and other mysteries, you know, from Jack to Repper, Bigfoot, all sorts of paranormal things were really big in the seventies and you couldn't avoid it. And but the UFO interests kind of stuck with me all my life. Mm hmmm. So I know you're you're which I appreciate very skeptical. You take a skeptical approach to all of this, and and you know someone else that does that that
you know, listeners would be familiar with her. It's Mark D'Antonio. And if you didn't know better, you would think there was no UFO case that Mark D'Antonio believes. But of course he's very into all of this. Now, do you believe there is a gene phenomenon? I do, yes, I think so. Now I can't I can't define it. I think there's there's Unfortunately, there is a lot of fakery and fraud and and and that
that really confuses the issue. I mean, it's almost like it's you know that, well, we know there's serial video hoaxers out there, and there have been people that you know, claim to have served on Mars and and all sorts of wild things outlandish, and there's not a shred of evidence for But there there are enough genuine cases, you know, even like the Blue Book report. Uh, the the reports themselves are really interesting. I don't
always agree with the analysis. Sometimes they're just really quick to explain things away, But the reports themselves were made by credible observers and in some cases you've got radar and and in rare cases photographs to examine. But you know there's something, there's something to this, you know, even I'm even interested in the psychological aspect of Sometimes the the things that can be a dead five, they can still have a big effect on people. Mm hmm, right,
I agree. So, I guess when I first started noticing your work was when you started posting in the UFO Updates UH forum. I guess it used to be it was online and now it's in Facebook. It's not its own page, but uh, and you started posting a lot about the cash lantern case for which and I believe that is what inspired you to put up your website Blueberry Lines. Is that correct? That's right? And to back it up a little bit. I became interested in in the UFO is more well.
Renewed my interest really in about twenty eleven, and I'd seen this film that was a documentary on Gray Barker, and he was really interesting because he seemed to have a genuine interest in UFOs, but he was also involved in a number of UFO hoaxes. And in the film, his friend and collaborator James Moseley was featured and he published Saucers Smear, and I said, well, you know, I couldn't get in touch with Gray Barker and find that
much about him, but Jim Moseley seemed to be pretty accessible. So I started writing to him, and you know, to my surprise, he gave me a phone call back instead of returning my letter. And I got to be you know, eventually got to be friends with him, well pen pals and phone piles, and he just had just had a wealth of information. He just knew about knew just about everyone in the field, and had all
this experience and had done his own personal investigations. And that's eventually he was writing a story on the cash Lander case and he asked me to dig up some background material and that's where I initially became involved in the case. Oh I see, that's really interesting and I love this this stuff. I mean, James Moseley. Sausag smeare for people who don't know and practically nobody.
In fact, there will be a very small, small I would guess maybe even one or two people listening to this show who even got this sausage smear, But you can find some online. But it was such a fun paper. It was one of those kind of guilty pleasures because Jim Moseley was very satirical. He was very he would make fun of things, but he had
a genuine interest. He was also skeptical and it was kind of like a gossip rag, you know, and that we all people in the field, especially because that's who he was talking about, liked to read it, or some of us, even though you never knew when you were going to be, you know, the focus of some some smear. Even luckily I had some minors stuff, but I wasn't really bashed too much in any of it.
But James was a great fun guy. I interviewed him. Unfortunately passed away, but there's only a few hundred people that got that paper newsletter that he would send out. And like you said, he was friends with his great Barker. Now, I've always been more skeptical of Grey Barker because of the hoaxes he was involved with, even though mostly was kind of his partner. I know, Grey Barker and James even said, kind of ran a little more wild with those hoaxes. Does that give you pause? Those hoaxes?
What do you think of that aspect of Grey Barker. It's I think it's well, I find it fascinating. I'm interested in UFO hoaxes and the psychology behind it, and you know, it's there. People do that for a number of different reasons. One, you know, some are some almost like uh uh, like arsonists. You know, these guys set fires and then enjoy watching, you know, how it plays out, and this is a little less destructive than that. And other people you on their jokers.
And then there's obviously some people in it for financial return and the you know people talk about And I talked to Jim mostly about it and his he seemed to agree that the the reputation that that Barker had as a hoaxhere with its a little overstated, because really what he did was he mostly well I don't know if I want to say repackaged exactly, but he tended to take take stories and a lot of a lot of them were from the from the early
contact ease, and he would he would publish them. But he also added literary flourishes and some dramatic touches. And you know, I don't think that he fabricated in most cases, but there were other cases in his magazine where there were stories that were just totally totally fiction, but his there's no doubt though that there were there were some things that were, you know, just totally created. And I think the well he was also a prankster too,
That's something we've got to think about that together. Jim, honestly and uh and Gray Barker played pranks on John Keel and both the phone pranks and and things like that, and the the the story. But the Men in Black they sort of perpetuated that. And there were other we associated things and the Men in Black that we don't think so much about now, like doppelgangers.
They would there would be claims if, oh, well, it look like a Jim Mosley appeared here, well a lot of times it was really Jim Moseley, uh, playing a prank on a friend, and yet it might get written up as if it was some paranormal event. So there were a lot of things that that sort of stemmed out of just well, oh, really really pranks, and some of it just launched in the UFO. Ar mm hmm. Yeah. We'll get more into this, I guess a little later, but I guess some of what they did too, and I think
it concerned you. It concerns a lot of people in the UFO updates for them, especially with recent events, which we'll get into. A lot of these pranks they pulled were to show how a lot of researchers and I think they felt Keel was one of these were just too gullible, that's true. And oh almost forgot one of the things that Eventually, after Jim Dodd, Gene Steinberger, the Percat set up a Jim Moseley memorial site jimoseley dot com, and it was really just a placeholder, and so I said, well,
you know, I can put some content on it. So I've got I've wounded up putting a number of my articles and some guests articles, and a lot of photographs and news clippings on Jim Moseley, so you can find out a lot about him, including some of the pranks and a few of the hoaxes that were that were put in. And I'm trying to be, you know, to give that honest coverage and the I guess some of them,
well they were definitely not scientific. The only thing I can say is, you know, there was some useful mischief going on there, and the Jim Moseley's take on things and his you it was not nearly as as serious as as if he were a scientist. You know. He came into it as kind of an amateur journalist, and over timing he matured and really took
a more serious outlook on the topic. But as far as the personalities, he always had the humorous outlook on that, and he could give it as much as he could take it. I think he appreciated I think truthfulness. Even though he hoaxed and pranked, you know, they were willing or at least he was willing to admit to that, because that was the whole point to say, Hi, we tricked you sort of thing. Uh. And even though he would bash people for things, he uh certainly was willing to
take criticism as well. His He also did a number of legitimate investigations, and he helped expose the the Georgia Damski fraud, and he contacted other people and Damski published photographs claiming that the the the ship that he had seen was
photographed by another person. Well really he had just credited to the other person and and wanted, you know, to add corroboration, and he just he really inflated things far beyond the uh anything that might have actually happened, and just just and and also you know he called himself professor, which he had no right to do. That was informal thing he represented himself. He was basically a frock hook at a Hamburger stand on Mount Palomore, but using the
name professor. And then there's the observatory Mount Palomore. Someone who didn't know is going to assume that he has he's a scientific professor and he's part of the observatory. And so this was you know, he exposed that, and you know it was almost a leader of a small cult, and it was quite different from the way he represented himself. And just for listeners who don't know, Georgia Damski was really famous California guy, a alleged contact. He
probably the most famous of that movement that happened like in the fifties. And the pictures of his UFOs are are iconic now with those three little balls on the bottom, not too dissimilar for what Bazaar says they look like, but you could look that up. I do want to get it more into your research, and I do want to talk about cash Landron, which is such an interesting case, and I was wondering if maybe to start off, if you could kind of explain those events in a nutshell. That might be difficult
for yeah, but as best as possible. Well, you know, I guess rather than really describe it, I'll just kind of identified, you know it. But one of the things that's unusual about it is it's almost a
twin event to the Renders from Forest case. They happened within days of each other in December of nineteen eighty and this event was in Helton near Huffman, Texas, and two ladies, Betty Cash, Vicky Lander, and Vicki Lander's grandson were driving home about nine o'clock at night and they saw a bright light through the trees and it eventually as a rounded a curve, they saw this huge bright object demanting flames, and it blocked their path and they stopped to
look at it. And later they all suffered some discomfort, and Betty Cash in particular had some severe skin problems, swelling, headache, and you know,
some of the symptoms resembled that of radiation poisoning. And the event was so strange that they had agreed not to tell anyone about it and I'm skipping a lot of details here, but there were also there was this fleet of helicopters that were involved, which later led them to believe that it was some sort of military operation, whether it was a putting in pursuit of a UFO
or whether the UFO was a government project. But Betty was hospitalized for several weeks and the we just had no clues to what was wrong with around all sorts of tests, and it was only it was Kolbe that actually told that that the UFO could have been the cause of it. So and it's it's a there were there were several phases to the story, but I'll stop here
and see if you have a particular question. Yeah, I think the events of when they stopped and observed the craft were really interesting and you could correct me and clarify, but essentially, uh, you know, one of I think one of them got out of the car and then they they was it dashboard and melting or just really hot and uh, they were feeling this extreme heat. Correct, that's right. The object was producing both extreme light and heat, and you know they it seemed to be it was it was flame
like exhaust. Whether whether it's flames or asthma. You know, we're not real sure, but they they later described it as as flames and they the car, you know, they had to shield their eyes from the brightness of it, and the car became hot. And it's it's confusing about just when the the dashboard was the well, it wasn't, it wasn't completely melted, but it became softened from the heat. And at some point Vicky Lantham had reached out with her hands and pressed and it left an impression. And the
uh and this wasn't like putting your hands in cement. It wasn't that distinct, but you know, it did just it just it yielded to the pressure of her hand and it left a permanent impression. And the when Betty Cash got back she was she stayed outside to look at it the longest. Kolbe was about seven years old. He was frightened, and Vicky got in the car to comfort and shelter him. Betty stayed outside a bit longer, trying to see what the object was. It was so bright they really couldn't determine
what it was. They might make out the shape of it, and the when she got back in the car because Vicky was calling for She wanted to, you know, let's get away from here, but they couldn't. We have were blocked. But when when Betty reached the h for the car handle, it was so hot that she had to use her coat to open the handle and U so the and once they got back inside, it eventually lifted off. But then the interior of the car was somehow heated and they had
to turn on the air conditioner. And this was about it was a mild Texas winter, but it was about forty degrees outside. Well, they hid the they had just turn on the air conditioning to cool off the car. Wow. And so was it as they left that they saw something like six or seven was it helicopters, large helicopters fly by that That is a little bit confusing because the boy Kolby saw said he saw helicopters from the time they first saw the UFOs, But it was the ladies seemed to see them later.
And it was initially they were I think they were fairly far off because in the original testimony they saw they saw they weren't sure if they were helicopters or planes or what. But as he went down the road, they encountered because it's kind of a winding path. They they saw the helicopters much more closely following the UFO, and part of the reason they could catch up with it was the UFO was described by him as almost well they use words like
that that horvered, that it floated, and it flew away slowly. So this wasn't This wasn't like a flying saucer zipping around. This almost had more of a you know, you could speculate, you know, whether that that it was bloom like or you know, anti gravity or or what. But it wasn't. It wasn't it wasn't a rapid flight, and so the helicopters
were able to pace it. And so from the second location, that's where they got a really good look at the helicopters and you could see that they had that they they didn't know what kind of were, but you know, there were siege forty seven, you know, which are huge, bigger than a blast and they have the two rotors on top. And so they got they were they were still silhoulted from the light. They couldn't see markings on
them or you know, find details like that. But they got a good look and also there was you know, a huge noise from the helicopters themselves, and speaking of noise, that the UFO was emitting some sort of series of beeps, and there was there was also some kind of roaring. Well I'm trying to think there was. There was a sound they described as like a wishing of air brakes and and I think that was associated with the jet of flames. So it was there was you know, there's an indication from
that that it was it was something mechanical. You know, it wasn't like just some cloud of plasma or something like that that it was. It was a physical mechanical object. Mm hm. And uh. Now I believe at least they all suffered from medical uh effects they believe were a result of this
sighting. Is that correct, That's that's controversial. One of the things we have to remember in this case was that it was almost it was almost two months later before it was really reported, you know, they Betty went into the hospital about three days later, and it was it was only once she finally told her doctor several weeks later, and then the doctor insisted that she reported and so she reported it to It was Vicky Lander who it was only
Betty Cash that was hospitalized. First of all, I mean back up there, Vicky and Colby were their symptoms were such that they were able to take care of themselves at home, and they had they reported and see their their injuries are not are not well documented, but they had they had flu like system symptoms and also red skin as if they'd been sunburned. And there also
their eyes were affected by the by the brightness. And Vicky Lander had gone to her eye doctor and she had been given a new set of glasses, new prescription. And also he had you know, he noted that her eyes seemed to have suffered, you know, from some sort of injuries from the brightness. M hm. And so now in in your investigation, I mean, what a lot of people, you know, the old timer UFO guys who know of this case and have looked at it. John Schusler, who
was the director of Moufon and one of the founders of Moufon. He was actually a mentor of mine. He wrote a book about it. I know it was involved in the case, and he believes it was not a human craft. But there is some debate that if it seemed to have you know, radioactive properties, or this is radiation they suffered from that perhaps this was some sort of nuclear powered experimental craft, especially given the helicopters. I don't
know if you know this, you probably do. I've interviewed John Alexander, you know, the Army colonel retired, and about this case. He thinks it was extraterrestrial and that the helicopters weren't real, that they were projections by this craft somehow. So a lot of opinions out there as to what it was. What are how do you feel what is the evidence either way? Well, you know, uh John Alexander, I'm wondering if he got his
ideas on that from uh doctor j Allen Heineg. He was interviewed in Omni magazine and he suggested something was virtually identical to that he thought it was. He talked about maybe some sort of holographic projection that could have physical effects on things, and he thought that was But because they looked everywhere, I mean, his his teammate Alan Hendry, had looked for the source of the helicopters and came up, came up drive. No one could could locate him.
The Army did an internal investigation and they couldn't locate, you know, any matching ASAR and you know, there were big helicopter operations at the time they were preparing for this hostage rescue in Iran, so they were they were running training missions, but not during this. This would have been during the Christmas to New Year's holiday, and you know the bases where they were like basically
a skeleton crew. So you know, it's very perplexing. But so there it's I don't know that that is so speculative and and goes into it just because you can't find a source of helicopters. I'm not ready to go into two uh you know, alien mental or or holographic projections. But you know, it's but the craft itself is so unlike anything that there has been designed. I mean that the it was Colby that insisted it was diamond shape.
The women couldn't really make out the shape of the thing. But you know, just the way that it behaved and is just so unlike anything that we've developed. It's just hard to imagine, you know, how it would land,
what purposes it would serve if it was a military vehicle. And one of the things that's so strange about this is that the development process for military aircraft is often five to ten years are longer, and there's just like a massive If you look atny of the Lockheed projects or things like that, there's so many people involved, the engineers, they would just seem to be a
record. And you know, if I'm just not convinced that it was a military aircraft, you know, and I don't know, I'm not going to jump to the the et explanation, but it's it's a genuine unknown well, and I think I don't know, you would probably know more about this, but this is kind of the area of Stanton Friedman expertise. He worked on nuclear powered essentially experiments in empowering different devices and vehicles with nuclear power, and
he had said that he doesn't believe we had anything close to that. He has a more articulate and a great explanation. I think he gives examples of what they were working on. But well, I tend to agree with him there. And what's interesting is if you go back and look at some of the interviews from the eighties, he actually changed his position on that, and that's not something he does very often, but I think he, you know, he looked at the facts of things and revised his position on that.
But one of the things that is I think that hurts the nuclear aircraft theory was the fact that it doesn't match the injuries. And you mentioned John Alexander earlier. He was he was involved in the arm his investigation of this in a minor way. George Taran had been given the task determined whether or not that the Army helicopters were involved, but he was doing the thorough job. He contacted some people Captain Peter Rank and John Alexander and Richard Niemso. All
these guys were in the military and had a UFO interest. And one of the things that just didn't add up was that the for Betty Cash in particular, to have the symptoms so soon, she would have had to have a lethal dose of radiation to have the onset of the skin problems, the flu like symptoms and the hair loss. So and also the hospital test that they
had run didn't didn't match that. So it you can match some of these symptoms to things like even chemical exposure or in some of the symptoms match microwave radiation, it didn't match anything that we really knew. And you know, again I'm not just because it because it doesn't add up. I'm not ready
to say, you know, well then it's alien radiation. But it's there's so many things in this case, like the helicopters and the nature of the radiation that you can get like three pieces that start to fit together and looks like, okay, we've got this, and then but when you add the other pieces, you know it's they contradict and you just left with puzzle.
But the events in genuine certainly the effect on the witnesses was genuine. But you know, we're left with these conflicting details, and it's hopefully there's there's still some information out there, whether whether it's going to be from helicopter pilots or some records that haven't been released. And you know, there's even the potential of some local witnesses that have have kind of gone quiet that there this this case is not so ancient that it that it's going to be a dead
end. I think there's still hope to get some more information about things, and there's a surviving witness, kolbe Lander is still alive now. Whether or not he can provide any more information, you know, that remains to be seen. What did their doctors, uh feel happened or where the you know, what was the diagnosis. I think that John Shuster's book has the best information on that. Now, sadly it's out of print, and you know,
I monitor it on on eBay. I have a copy. I was I was lucky enough to get in front of two hundred dollars, but it sells regularly for about five fe fifty his asking price. Because it was a self published book, it had a limited print run. I'm not sure, you know, maybe a thousand or and two copies, so it's it's pretty rare, but it's it's mainly a compilation of his reports, and in the back of it there are a number of photographs and documents. They are not
they are not medical reports reprinted in their entirety. It's made mainly a summer of things. But that and the doctors referred to Betty Cash's skin problems as things like well, I was now I'm going to blank on the word. It wasn't contusions, but it was you know, they don't refer to it specifically as burns, and it was as if she had this she had a series of of bumps and her scalp was swollen, and she had blisters over her eyes or ears were swollen, and she had this, you know,
terrible crippling headache along with these food like symptoms. But what they didn't and they were in blood tests, but they didn't determine radiation poisoning. So, you know, whatever happened, it wasn't It wasn't something as simple as like walking by open nuclear reactor. It was something far more complex than that. But the thing is, even though the injuries are puzzling, they correspond to the UFO siding, they're medically documented. It's just you know, it's but
it's you know, we're left with kind of some puzzling details. And what's frustrating is the fact that that Colby and Vicki weren't admitted to the hospital that they were treated. Now, one interesting thing is the media has played a big role in this case from the very beginning, and the it was a
tabloid newspaper, the Weekly World News that wrote the story. Now, the Weekly World News is known for ridiculous stuff like bat Boy, but in its early days it was fairly straightforward and they did actually a pretty good job of reporting this case, you know, other than some kind of sensational language. The details of the story were spot on, and that caused the Good Morning America to take notice and it was featured on this and from there that's incredible.
If you remember that old show, they did a story on it, and that was they got deeply involved. They met with the witnesses in July nineteen eighty one, and then later Vicky Landam appeared in the studio. It was hypnotized by doctor Leo Sprinkle and told the story and the anguish of her
reliving the experience was was really profound. And the thing is hypnosis is we know it's it's not a method of getting to the truth, and it can kind of I think it did accurately reflect her experience and the way that it felt. But it's just you know, if you don't have if you don't have the information, and she can't, she can't tell you. The nature of the craft is she didn't see it. You know, she can't tell
you who was inside or what it was. You know, just from hypnosis, you know you can you can be made to speculate, but it was it was from during the show. One of the things they did that was
that was unique. They got that they couldn't get the hospital that had examined Betty to talk about it, but they got they took I'm not sure if Kolbe was examined, but both Betty and Vicki were examined at the Methodist Memorial Hospital, and you know, one of the doctors had examined them talked about it, and all they could really say was that the skin conditions and things
resembled radiation exposure. You know, they couldn't say definitely, but you know it was so again, you know, they they they were subjected to something had real physical effects, but it's it's a mismatch to the things that we you know, we can't say it's chemical, can't say it's radiation. And you know, if it was a spectrum of things, well that's that's possible, but it's not something we could duplicate either. M HM. So fascinating,
what an incredible case. And and Blue tell people that you're u r O where they can find out more information about it blue glorylines dot com. And one of the things that I'm most proud of is areas I've managed to dig up a lot of documents from different sources and including some of the uh the files from the notorious skeptic fill Class because he had an interest in it.
And what I've done is if you go to the blueblorylines dot com across the top of the page, there's some resources and I've got a collection of those documents and you can say and that's something I encourage people to do in
any case they're interested in trying to go to the source material. If there's a police report or original move one report or whatever in What's blue book is go to the source, you know, examine and with that earliest testimony, don't rely on a summary in somebody's you know, opinion on it, because they all you know, buyas creeps into everyone's it's just an anytimes the story is repeated, you know, some details are lost or things are overemphasized.
Now speaking of phil Class, you know and the heartened skeptics, I'm sure there were skeptics who believe there were prosaic answers. Most likely they called it a hoax. But you know, what were their arguments, what was their evidence and was there any weight to their their claims? There there's been a
few. One was Stuart Campbell. He's in listening to reports. He said that because the the moon had been mentioned in some of the reports, well that meant that the moon at the time wouldn't have come up until after midnight
it was in the third quarter phase. And he said, well, then they had to have been wrong about the time, and so if that's the case, he claimed that what he had seen was I forget which the star was, but he said that that star was particularly bright, and so I don't know how he got the rest of the story from them just seeing a bright star, but that was that was one thing. But the so the
the moon part was definitely in air. I think that was probably in a when when they were trying to when John Shusseer was trying to describe how the the helicopters were visible. You know, he was talking about the light from the city and and the glow from the moon. Well, the moon wasn't up, so that that was just a mistake. And as far as as phil class, he relied a lot on information from Gary Posner. He's not as well known these days, but he's a he's a notory skeptic as well,
and he's he was also I forget his he's a doctor. I forget his his particular discipline, but it's not radiation. And he studied a lot on this and he's it was his theory that basically the injuries were covered were caused by sun lamp and that it was fate. So, you know, I didn't find that to be likely. A more recent skeptic, it goes
by the name is Zoe Chomsky, with no evidence of it whatsoever. He claims that it was a household cleaner that Betty Cash had poured on herself and it had ingested, and that she overdid it and that's what almost caused her to die. And I thought, oh, that is that is so hainous, because you know, you're not only were you just assuming that that the witnesses are dishonest, that they would go to the links to injure themselves and
nearly kill themselves. I thought, that's that's sound landish. And if remember correctly they had good reputations, well they did, and you know something interesting about that. You know, John Shustler took a took a close interest in this case, became friends with him. He even described his relation to him as kind of being being a rabbi for him. He he was sort of a late liaison of the press, and he you know, invested the case,
investigated the case personally, tried to get help for him. I think in the sense he probably got too personally involved, and I think he may have kind of lost some objective objectivity there. But there's no doubt that they the little, the little bit of help that they got. You know, he's responsible for seeing that, and you know he if nothing else they did get, they didn't get satisfaction, but they did get some comfort from having
their story told. And for the most part, the they were they were pretty well received in the press. You know, people people thought they were
credible. They I don't unlike some of the other UFO witnesses, I don't think they were subject to to that much ridicule, you know, at least not in the in the in the media stories that I've that I've seen, and there were there was a lot of newspaper coverage and the when there there was a long legal battle too, and that's kind of a long story, but that's that's documented, but ultimately was thrown out of thrown out of corp
because there's insufficient evidence. You know, the the the all of the branches that the Armed Services said, well, they didn't operate anything that they resemble the craft, which is frustrating. I mean I I and I understand John's frustration in that he feels so bad for these people who are struggling with these medical conditions and there should be some help and uh and just doing that by
getting the military to admit, well, it wasn't ours. It's significant when it comes to the case and what it might have been, but still there should be some help for these people. I think he felt, and I think everybody who reads his story feels. And so it's tragic in that sense, which I could see why John. You know, we get so personally wrapped up in it just trying to help these poor people. One thing I
should mention someone, I feel a lot of people helpful. When I was trying to dig for more information on this, you know, I talked to the film class files. I got those from the oh gosh, American Philosophical Society. He'd left his records to that, and I actually had to purchase copies of those. But I've also contacted libraries where they were able to give me provide me copies of newspaper articles and things like that, and a number
of individuals. One in particular was Chris Lambright. He had conducted an investigation
in nineteen eighty five. He lived in Texas, and he went to the Dayton and interviewed Vicky Landraam to vice and he had taken a video and unfortunately the audio on it's really bad, but it was linked the interview with Vicky Landerman and that was I'm hoping to transcribe that and and to uh to print that at some point, but it was just, you know, it was great to see her in a relaxed setting and in a conversation and tell her
story and the difficulties that she had and her attitude on the court case. And there there was something that one of the things I wanted to say about that was that I think the key events, you know, something actually happened.
There's a lot of puzzles about that. But there there were some other things later that you know that we're basically rumor and you know, confusing, Like you know, there's legends of the the road being torn up and replaced, and I don't I don't think that's that's that's genuine only in the sense
that it was an old country road and needed repair. And once it happened, there this story is built up that it was missed, you know, it was taken away because it was covering up the evidence of the radiation, and that that just doesn't seem genuine at all. But her her attitude about the court case, he had asked her, you know, would you if
the government settled out of court, would you would you accept that? And she seemed very unhappy at that prospect because she wanted that the truth to be told and it admitted in court, you know, and to be printed in the newspaper and you know it's some acknowledgment that that things had actually happened. So it was you know, the public statement was was very important to her and there, you know, I found it was good to see that on film. I found her to be very sincere. Yep, great case,
really interesting. In fact, it's so interesting it took up most of our time. But before we're done, I would like to ask about are there other cases that you've looked into as closely or that you've begun to uh research and depth. Well, I focused on this one because I thought it was so the information, the documentation was so good, and also there's no it's not tainted by like phony photographs or phony documents like you know that that bother
so many other things. But but from there it intersected with some things like, uh, I know that that you've investigated Paul Bennovitt story. Well, he was interested in the Cash land of case and he felt that it was an instance where it was a government have some sort of combination alien US operation and technology. And and so I've looked into that, and Richard Doughty spread
spread stories about the the Cash Lantern case. So from there I got I got sort of into the Benowitz case, and I've also looked into some of the other other military operations and there were there are a lot of associated things like the leveland Texas case in the fifties, where you know, there was this huge bright object that came down and interfered with the vehicles. Well you know that the time is definitely different, but the appearance of the object is
similar and so and it was emitting some sort of energy. So there are some other things like that that that unfortunately don't provide answers, but are interesting comparisons. And there's and I mentioned it was interested in hoaxes. There have
been some interesting cases where some most often it's college students get together. There was one in cal Tech and this was right after the famous swamp gas incident, and they they came up with a fairly sophisticated balloon, had lights on it, and what what they're what made their hoax unique was they had basically radar chaff I think it was, you know, strips of full so that not only would it be seen, but would be tracked on radar and so
and you know, these scoundrels, uh, they attracted the effect in the media, and you know, people saw it and the the reaction of it to it. They seemed to uh ascribe behavior to it that a balloon couldn't do, like it zipping off and and and one woman who saw it said that when it was near she felt the smell of perfume. So you know, it's an interesting psychological test that it could bring out these things that just
you know, clearly the balloon couldn't do. So was this like late fifties or this would have been sixty seven, I believe, Oh, okay, yeah, and so but that was that was just just one of ok that one was more sophisticated a hoax and because most of the time it's just like some hot air balloon or something like that, and people will see them, and you know, it's very confusing because people can have these this same sense of wonder that you see from a from a genuine unknown from and they can
become it as convinced that they've seen something. And once you have that feeling and they say, well, no, this is a advertising airplane or a hot air balloon or something, well they can remain convinced. And you know, this emotional reaction is hard over on. I want to ask you before we're done, not that I think it's a hoax. I don't know that you do either, but the Roswell slides, of course it's been beaten to
death on my show and by others. But you were one of the members of the Roswell Slides research group, you know, the group that you know you guys did and unfortunately, and I don't mean to slight some of the people that were part of the original misidentification of these slides, but I think your group did more and better research in the short amount of time after the slides were shown than the slides proponents did in the years that they had it
to do research. I mean, I think that I really give you guys accolades for doing such a great job. And you know, I think cracking the case, uh you with well just a number of other people. It's it's a long list of people, so it's it's hard to remember all the names. But when you got involved with that, I mean, do you feel that was a hoax? And what prompted you to get so involved with
that? Well, it really just started off as is a conversation. We had had a group of people and the and some of some of the people had been following Tony Bregalia and the Rosewell case in general. And as it's developed, because it was it was, it sort of leaked out over period of years and uh as it was really when once the announcement was made at the American University, and it was it was so the claims are so enormous. It was like the smoking gun and this is going to be proof of
alien visitation and from the Rosewell crash. And with if it had been present in another way, I don't know if I would have taken as big an interest in it. So but it's almost as if you know, there's this big blockbuster movie coming in. You know, you're just like, well, you want to know, you want to read all every little magazines had bite
and so it was kind of like that at first. And the more information that we got, uh, we started putting together details and some people had seen the slides and described there was a Larry Limkey had had described it. And as as it was described though, it was in it was in a glass case and the weight was laid out and things. It was just it sounded like we you know, this sounds like this sounded like a museum exhibit. And when eventually the image of the slide was leaked, that's just what
it looked like to me. And you know, we started comparing it against uh, photographs of different bodies, and we found a mummy in the Smithsonian that closely was and it was the body of a two to three year old boy from from Egypt, and you know, the the ribs and the condition of the cage, the rib cage, you know, so closely resembled it. So we said, you know this this this is a humanoid and I think it's a human child. So that was that was really where we got
started. Then the fact that the placard was relatively easily deciphered. But see what what was different I think with us is that our group was interested in finding information and sharing it and examining it. And the the Roswell UH slides promoters, the the owners of the slides had them sign this non disclosure agreement, and there was all this secrecy that was brought into it, and it
really inhibited research. And I think when they had to uh for example, when they when they gave the placard UH to UH to the experts to try to decipher it, well then only they didn't give them the picture of the slide. They just gave them this this little clip of it. And you know, we're not even sure if they had well I know in some cases they had given them versions that had been contrasted, so you didn't have the
whole picture to work with. You didn't have the original image. It was, you know, either been brightened or or are they already been what I don't mean to say tampered with, but altered. You didn't have the original image and so it was just so fragmented. The people that were working on it seemed to have their hands tied. And plus they went in I don't know how many of them that were involved in it. But they went in with this this preconceived notion that this was an alien and I think it kind
of blinded the other possibilities. Yeah, yeah, and I agree. You know, you make some great points because, for instance, with the photos and the de blurring that was done by nab right is his name, at least his Facebook name. You have to have that program, You have to have the picture is the more data you have is important because you have to kind of mirror the blur and its angles in order to de blur it, which is a long and tedious process that was locally done by someone from your
group. Uh. And I don't think they didn't contact experts who even knew de blur existed, to be honest, until you guys released that, I didn't know these de blur programs were out there. As soon as I found out, I downloaded it and you know, began, uh trying to work with it to de blur the picture. And it was just too long of a process. And luckily you guys had a guy who did it. But uh, and so there was a lot of the got their hands were certainly
tied. And then friendships come along and and and strong personalities. So there's so much socially that was interesting. But I do think it's interesting. Uh. And I think you guys have some of you have made this point because all of this peripheral stuff such as relationships professional or otherwise, uh, and friendships and kind of this grandiose kind of and egos, I guess I get in the way and showmanship that all of this got in the way as well,
uh to doing real research. That's true, And you know it's it's a shame because I just think that in any investigation, you've got to follow the evidence. And and somehow this got turned around from the very strong I think if you listen to Tom Carey talk about the case, he said when he saw the slides, it connected with this testimony that he heard about the
child of the Earth. And I think he made that association, and you know, I kind of I think that that I don't know if it was an emotional connection or biased, but I think that that kept him from looking at things objectively. And the the other thing we're talking about hands being tied, well, even when the the experts are consultants, I don't know if we should call him experts when when they were brought in, they were given them, they were given digital copies, know, you know, except for
the I think the Kodak analysis analysts that that helped authenticate things. I think he's one of the few people that actually saw the original slides and everybody else was working from digital copies and as we know now, the the images were blurred, so, you know, anyone that was trying to to examine this and they said, hey, look, and I think that they they said, hey, tell me about this alien picture, you know, and they went in with this preconceived notion and the you you can look now at the
at the shelves and see that the the there's double images of the holes in the shelves, so you know, the whole body is is also blurred. So some of the details are not that clear, but you know, it's it's just puzzling to me that some of the other things in the photographs, like there there are other little signs available that are facing the other way. And you can see, especially in the the the darker the two photographs,
you can see part of a bench in the background. It just doesn't match the setting of a of a military uh UH or scientific examination where they would they would have been taking this precious specimen. Mm hmm. And I say it with all due respect fact that I, when I see the photos, don't understand myself how someone could think it was anything other than a museum display. I just don't see it at all. So and that's where I come from. And I don't mean to be you know, because I have a
great respect, especially for Don Schmidt. I love Don Schmidt, you know. I think I've said that several times. He's a friend, He's a great guy. I really like the guy. I think he's done some great research. Tom's a good guy. And you know, it has tainted my approach to all of this, and unfortunately I had to be willing and and you know what, I'll say this because I think it hurts research. I
had to be willing to sacrifice whatever friendship I had with Jaime Mussan. And I think that that doesn't speak well to him as a researcher, because all we're doing is investigating and sharing research. And I think a lot of people feel like, oh, I don't want him to get mad at me, so I better not come out and just give my real opinion. And that's
not good. That's not healthy for research. And you know we shouldn't have to be afraid of being called what I think you know, I don't even think I've shared this being called a he said, I was, you know, essentially hurting its character, lying, defamation, a character type of thing, just because I'm sharing essentially you all and your research, which I know is carefully done. I know that you guys don't mess around, and you
would not risk your reputations. That you have doubled and tripled and quadrupled checked everything you guys have done, which you did and it turned out to be independently, verifiable and accurate. Which having known you guys and communicated with you guys online, I knew that you guys, if you guys are coming out with something, then it's going to be something that's been thoroughly looked at.
Oh and you know it had had somehow this been evidence of extraterrestrial life because we had some we had a mixture of people, you know, from from UFO proponents to some hardcore skeptics. But you know even that even the heart like Tim Prenny for example, on Lance Moody, I would cite that was an example that the more that the skeptics or some people would even say to
bunkers. But if these if there had been, you know, anything to suggest this was extraterrestrial, we've been happy to present that information as well. And you know, and it was so fascinating with the build up to this, with it, you know, if these, if these claims are true, but it was so disappointing that they weren't, because this wasn't. See when when there's something like oh, you know, even when there's an airplane mistaken as a as a UFO, well you can learn something from that.
You're like, Okay, here's the flight plan that causes, here's the configuration of lights, and there's still something to be learned. But with this, it just turned out to be such a disappointing ways uh. And you know, it took so many people's time, and I mean, and I can't believe how much time it took where we were really drawn into it and once things kept building, we had to keep on with it and keep pressing with it. And you know, it definitely derails some of my personal research on
the cash Landom case and as I was working on. But you know, it was something we had to follow through and luckily there were other people like a shepherd Johnson got involved and he submitted this Freedom of Information and Act request and turned up these documents that included photographs and uh, you know, so the you know, it's not just as the placard. There's all this historical information that supports us. You know. It's so it's overwhelming and I think
the you know, I think it's conclusively solved. So what's what's disappointing to me is that we can look at this and see, well, here's we don't know exactly why it went wrong, but you know, here's something went wrong, but it's it's conclusively proven, but there it's sort of a symptom in a way, and that this sort of thing happens in other cases. But there's not a you know that placard will say as a smoking gun that
that blows the case up. There are the things that we don't have this, but the other things need to be looked at, you know, just about his heart and when this happens, I think people need to acknowledge it, say you know, here's you know, here's what went wrong, and you let it go and you admit it, face facts, and it doesn't destroy uphology, and it should you know, it stings, but it should
make things stronger. It's like, you know, if you can read stuff out like this and keep it from happening again and bringing more of a scientific approach to things, and uh, examine things from as many disciplines you can. It's like the I know, a lot of UFO cases are very well, they're almost intangible, but there's there's things that can be examined, you
know. I mean if you can prove something to happen at the location, and you know, see what holds up and what what is strong enough to to to withstand scientific examination, you know, and and keep investigating those things and these these these iffy things and and you know, bory photographs and questionable material. I think that it's a huge drain on people's resources and it can really mislead people, right. Yeah, well, I know you you probably
let read and listened to every single thing. And there was a lot out there about this case, at least coming from the main characters involved. But I mean, the good thing for me is at least when I get to highlight some of the good work done by all of the people out there.
And this is where we should take this. I think as researchers, it gives us the ability to essentially network and communicate with others perhaps that we haven't worked with before, and then it widens our scope of people we can rely on and work with and to get eyes on to give things, you know, the hard look that they need because cases like caste landrum or whatever, you know, others like the media is going to be much harder than we
are on these cases, and so we need to be really difficult. We need to take a hard look at all of this if we want to present it as something that is credible. And I think that is the goal of you know, ultimately, is to get this out and to demonstrate to the main stream that you know, there's a real phenomena that's that's true, and you know there are I was I mentioned Blue Book a couple of times. You know, there's some great cases in there, but they're they're not necessarily
sexy. Sometimes there's just you know, there's this this object that appeared. You know, there were several witnesses, but it's not you know, it's not it's not like a Hollywood movie script. You know, it doesn't you know, it's basically like like a hit and run or a flyby. You know, you see it, you get a good look. You know, you see that it's not a it's it's not an earthly aircraft, and that
can be sort of documented. But there's this information limited, so you know, there's there's definitely things that are that are worthy of research, but there's there's too much I think there's like too much emphasis on on things as kind of as entertainment. You know, there's definitely an appetite for it, people are curious, but the you know, the scientific study has got to be
done. And I think that your point about about networking is great because you know, the more people we can get involved and and to you know, continue to examine things, as I said earlier, from from different uh, different perspectives, different scientific disciplines. You know, I think that's uh, that's something that could be encouraged and I would definitely like for more mainstream scientists
that become interested. And uh, I'm not sure quite how we learned things in but you know that the presenting clean cases, you know, stripped is the sensationalism is one way to begin that exactly. So we've gone a bit over and I want to ask you one last question before we leave, and
that is where does the name blue Blurry Lines come from? It is my first choice was taken and so it was my second, but it kind of reflects on well, I was the fact that so many things the details pictures are glory and indistinct, and then lines, you know, were things that I were writing about it, So it just kind of had a double triple meaning. And also also something that I tend to do my first drafts on a notebook paper, so they have some blue lines, so you know,
kind of a combination of things here. Yeah, I was curious just because it always makes me think of Blue Book, because I'm fascinated by Blue Book and the cases in there, and it is blurry, I mean, everything is. You have Heine's point of view, who is you know, the astronomer consultant to Blue Book, who had a different point of view than some of the investigators, and you know it's used as this investigation to show there isn't a phenomenon, when really I think you can argue that it shows there
is a phenomena. And so it's a blue blurry line to me blue Book. So that's where I always thinking of it as I was curious that what your original intent was. I have a closing thought for you. Okay, great, this is this is advice. First of all, if you're if you're interested in UFOs, you better have a huge tolerance for ambiguity. There's a lot of things that are going to be unsolved. You got these conflicting
details. So for your mental health, find a hobby, needle point or something that you can build puzzles, something you can complete and have a sense of satisfaction because you're not going to get a lot of answers and the pieces that are not all going to fit in your UFO investigations. So you know, learn or guy me or something that you know, something you can finish and complete, maybe put on your shelf aimen to that. I think that
you make an excellent point, one that I always make. There are no solid answers when it comes to this stuff except for the roswell slides where a mummy or a mummified child. No, but great, excellent. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing this stuff. The cash landrom case. I'm so glad that you tackle that because it shouldn't be forgotten. It's such an extraordinary case. It's been wonderful getting to know you the last couple of years, and I'm so happy to have you on the show.
But thank you again for joining us. And this was a great discussion. I had a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you so much to Kurt for joining us today. Such an interesting case. Cash Landrum is one of my favorite cases. We talked a little bit before about John Schusler, who used to be the move On director in Colorado when I first got involved with move On, so he's always served as kind of a mentor for me,
and I know this is one of the cases he's really into. I've got his book and had read it, and this is just an extraordinary case that seems to get more and more mysterious the more we look into it. So you know, I've interviewed some people who have talked about the case a little bit here and there, but such a strange and extraordinary case. I think you all will agree. And it's wonderful that Kurt has taken us on to look more into it. And Kurt is one of these new UFO resources
out there that it's great to have him. He's doing some great work. So thank you so much for joining us. Kurt. Remember you can find him at Blue Blurry Lines. We talked about it quite a bit, but google that and you'll be able to find his website and see more about this great case. So thank you so much. Thank you too, Martin Willis for trying to connect with us earlier for the show. We actually did talk for a little while and then it kind of went offline and unfortunately couldn't get
it working. So thank you so much to Martin. Of course, he does podcast UFO and he'll join us again next week, assuming we have a show next week. I'm sure we will. But you never know, people, it's just it's such a fast and furious, you know industry, this UFO thinks, so you never know. But you can find all of the stories that we talked about at Openminds dot tv. You can also find the latest Open Minds UFO Report, which is a YouTube you know, web series
that we're doing bringing you UFO news on a weekly basis via video. So, like I said, we talked about on this last one the Welsh government responding to the UFO questions in Klingon, and we interviewed Nick Pope, who used to work for the UK Ministry of Defense because one of those questions that they responded to was asking whether the Welsh government worked with the Ministry of Defense. So we talked to nickout a lot of stuff related to that on the
interview, so you could check that out at openminds dot tv. You also find more information about the UFO Congress. We'll be posting information about speakers soon. I just like to be really really careful. I like to have all the paperwork in hand before we post the speakers because I want to be sure it's rock solid, so I don't post a speaker and then something happens and they can't make it. So I want to have it rock solid before I
do that. And I like to have at least you know, well at least half the speakers are around that to post once at once you can see boom, wow, look at all these cool people. And it is a lot of cool people who are going to be coming to the conference. What's cool about our conference is UFO researchers come even if they're not speaking, So like San Friedman, I know will be there this year. Travis Walton comes
every year. Ben Hansen comes every year, although he does the SkyWatch, So a lot of people come even if they're not speaking, because it's just the biggest one. Everybody's there and you can meet and you can network, and it's a lot of fun. You can get a lot of people who are interested in the topic if you have some books to sell or something like that. So our conference is always a lot of fun, and we'll have
speakers up soon. I got to tell you, though, Every year the room sell out at the House Hotel sooner and sooner and already, oh my gosh, earlier than ever. We're going to be sold out of room, so be sure and reserve a room right now. You don't have to put money down to reserve a room, so go reserve your room as soon as possible, so you have that taken care of, even if you haven't registered
yet. But you'll want to register too, at least by October first, because that's when you get the cheap rates and you get the best deals. I did tell you guys too. We had a World UFO Day actually sale on tickets, and we had a lot of people take advantage of that, which was really smart because that way you could get tickets for even cheaper. So right now, it's where the tickets are at the lowest, and we've
got more registrations than ever already, so everything's looking great. And I want to thank you all who have registered, who come to the conference every year, or if you've only been once, you know, thank you all for joining us. I know many others have wanted to join us and haven't had the opportunity. So hopefully this year is the year we're going to have a great lineup. You can trust me on that, and I'll tell you more
about that as time comes. So open minds dot tv. Also, if you're not on our email news list newsletter, we're trying to send emails on a you know, bi weekly basis to update you guys on what's going on with the website, what's going on with Open mind UFO Report, what's going on with Open Minds UFO Radio, and also what's going on with the UFO Congress. So we want to keep you up to date on everything, whatever your interest is. Hopefully it's everything. So go to open Minds dot tv
in the upper right hand corner. You're gonna see some a little box there where you can put in your email address and submit it and then join our email list so you can get those bi weekly emails. You can also just email us at contact at open minds dot tv. You can email us for anything to that and I get that, and I can and the rest of us do so we can address any of your concerns or be sure to get you on the email list that way. So again, I want to think
Caleb Hanks, who does the opening end close music. You can find his information on the radio page at open minds dot tv. He does something called the clerk Chronicles where he posts this music for free. But he also has a comic book there that is really cool. He's an artist. This guy is just so creative and he's funny. This guy's hilarious, but he's an artist. His comic book is more serious. But you and find all of
his work there. Thank him. I want to thank you very much for the opening and close music, which I love, and I want to thank you all for once again listening. You guys are frigging awesome, but be sure to join us again. Thank you and audio smooth photos, your motions sound The class Trees Ofmarraine