Bryce Zabel: UFO Disclosure

Hello, and welcome to open My UFO Radio. I am your host, Alessandro Rojas, and I am joined by the Man, the myth, the legend, the person we've met missed so much the last couple of weeks, Martin and no show. Willis no show. I think I've been called that before. Real, So you're talking about bigfooted first, but yeah, no, that's me as you. Yeah, yeah, as anybody compared to you to Bigfoot before kind of maybe a baby sasquatch not yet, No, I

guess it would depend on you know. This is main right, I know, so it's a very witty area. Yes, but I like to tell people this is something new I'm doing, Martin. I'm telling people making sure they understand about the show. So this show is Open minds UFO Radio, where we cover credible UFO news and information. We take a journalistic standpoint since I'm a journalist, I'm a writer, and we cover substantiated, credible information

for you all to kind of make up your minds. We do, of course, give commentary and give our opinions, but and we do when we speculate, we call it speculation. But I think that's what something unique that Martin and I do is that we're giving you credible, substantiated information instead of just kind of spitballing and making guesswork out of things. We also do review

the news the beginning of the show. We'll be doing that momentarily, so if you want to just skip to the interview, you can't do that. That's at about the twenty five to twenty six minute mark. But we'll talk about news and stuff in just a second. But first I want to talk about Patreon. What I'm doing on Patreon is I'm alerding to people to what my next guests, to who my next guest will be, and then you can go on there and ask questions, but only if you're a patron.

And I asked people about that last week, about how I'm going to be putting some more exclusive information on my Patreon that only patrons can see. However, it only costs a dollar a month to get on there and see that at the very lowest, and you know, it'll keep me doing UFO stuff, which of course I would like to continue to do. It just takes a lot of time researching all of this info and quickly here you guys responded

greatly. I had a ton of you come and join Patreon. Here are some of them, Mitchell, Mitch, Jean Pierre or Larry, Rob, Matt Jode, Alex Rory, Jeff Kevin, Ray, Dennis Nicole, Richard Duncan, Steve Christopher, Shawn, Marcel, Craig Rubin, my good buddy, Ruben, yr Arte, Steve, Dave, and let's say Clinton, and we have Darth reichas so this is a Sith Lord. I guess is on here, Dars, so that's kind of scary actually, and Iran. So yeah, a ton of people are joining. Thank you so much,

and hopefully we can keep that roll in. But check out my Patreon this week. I have up a picture I hung out with my buddy Dave Childress not too long ago, from Ancient Aliens. And he shared a picture from the Ancient Aliens television show that's upcoming from him in Peruin some caves. It's a really cool picture, so you can see that if you're a patron. I've also got a cool bit of audio bonus that I'm gonna have this week, and I'll tell you about that in just a seconds. I tell you

about my guests anyway. Our guest for today is Bryce Sable Bryce has worked in the Hollywood industry for a long time. Some of you know him because I've had him on the show quite a few times. He was a speaker at the last Congress. But he's worked on the show Dark Skies, which was a UFO conspiracy series kind of about the mythology of MJ twelve and stuff he talked about. He did the TV show The Crow, Mantis, Lois and Clark, The Fifth Corner. On all of these typically he was a

producer and a writer. He's worked on the Mortal Kombat movies, on the Atlantis movie, all kinds of cool stuff. Currently, he's got a movie that's being filmed called The Last Battle, about the last battle in World War Two, which is really interesting. So that's going on. So he does cool stuff. And he used to be in charge of the Academy. In fact, when nine to eleven happened, he was the guy who had to say, oh, we're not going to hold the Academy Awards because you know,

we've got this tragedy. So really interesting character. He's worked for CNN and so I love talking to him. He's been online trying to start up discussions about disclosure and some other UFO topics recently, So that's why I decided it'd be great to have him on to see what he found and see what he's thinking about this stuff, and especially right now, this topic is really important. So that's our guest. But before we get into that, brilliant

He is a brilliant guy. He's a great dude. I really like love talking to him. Right. Isn't it amazing how he got started? I mean basically his wife told him, you know, you could do that probably better as far as like writing a screen. Really, yeah, it's amazing. Not aware of that. And yeah, he's just a brilliant guy, great guy. He had lunch with David O'Leary, the writer of uh, you know, Project Bluebook, and it it appears that it was kind of

some funny thing and we didn't even talk about this. We're both trying to take credit for hooking it up with David O'Leary. It was me. I've got there the emails to prove it. I have the emails to prove it. Oh my gosh, what if we emailed them at the same time. He got two emails. You got to have lunch with Dave? Well he did. Dave said to me, you're not the first person that told me. I see there's that it was me, but he said, but it definitely wasn't. Yeah, yeah, No, it's funny we had the same

idea. Well, they're both Hollywood guys, are both there in town, and I know Bryce always loves to meet people in the industry. I've hooked them up with others and have lunch. That's kind of what they do in Hollywood. They have lunch, talk about ideas. So, yeah, they really liked each other. In fact, I think we talk about that a little bit in this interview. Yeah that's great, But before that, let's get into the news. Martin. You got a new story to start us

off with. Well, I you know, as you know, I was absent the last couple of weeks during your show, but I know that you talked about the Manutwauk incident and which if any of the listeners watched that video, it's quite amazing and there was a lot of effort put into it, you know, the video itself and then the interviews and where was this video and update us on where and when? Okay that was that was back? Do you say I only have the down read Unfortunately, up in front of

me. But that was just a few few weeks ago that this happened, and essentially a UFO signing and somebody did a video in a witness and stuff. Yeah, and the video itself is pretty amazing. I mean the lights first, it starts out with a very bright light and then you can see sort of a formation and then you know, lights going in and out, and basically it was a you know uf you know UFO to this guy who was a marine, former marine, it seemed, you know, many aircraft.

He understands what they are and all that. But my hat's off to John Kelly and News Inside and Out who first reported this. And by the way, it's not just them, a lot of people picked up the story and it's on also. The video has gone quite well, semi viral on YouTube. A great video if you watch it. And but anyway, it's been downgraded because John took the time to get some people involved in doing research on this, and they've done an overlay of the lights with the daylight scene

and it basically silhouetted one on top of the other. Basically the camera was pointing down and these appear to be street lights and cars. Ah so yeah, I would, you know, even though it was a fantastic filming, I so much like this better when you know, when someone does the work and finds out it's something prosaic and nothing. Yeah, And sometimes people do that and then they do they try to downplay it or be like, oh

no, that can't be the answer. It's nice when someone just owns it and they're like, oh, yep, I guess we figured this out. Yeah. So it is that that story is up on the same place that broke that news inside and out, John Kelly, over on the West Coast. So there's another story here that I want to talk to you about. I think it's really important and it's getting kind of forgotten and not getting enough

attention, I think. And this is that. On April eleventh, the Senate Armed Services Committee had a hearing about the Space Force, and Senator Richard Blumenthal had some scary statements. He said, the American people have no idea, really no idea about the immensity of the threat in space. And I've got a link to the c SPAN video so you could watch the video. And I've also in the c SPAN video they have the transcript of what he's saying. But he's very I mean, he's very adamant about this, that

this is a big deal, and so it's kind of freaky. He essentially is saying that we're sitting here talking about the Space Force, but the most important things regarding this topic we can't even talk about because they're classified, and the American people don't have the facts. And he said, if we did have the facts, we'd be pretty alarmed. Says, I think we have a real obligation to explain to the American people why space is a domain that

matters. He also says we need to know why the threats there are real and urgent and why they are growing in importance. He says, you know, before if people start thinking it's aliens he's talking about, because many UFO people are posting this and thinking it's aliens, I don't think so. And the reason why is he does say that, you know, we know what

our adversaries are up to in space. They know we know what they're up to, and we talk about this behind closed doors, but the American people don't know, so they have no context for this conversation we're having right now about the Space Force. So he's kind of like we're wasting time, you know, just kind of blabbing about this crap that we can't even really talk about the beef of the situation. So that no wonder the American people are

confused by the Space Force thing. But these the immensity of the threatened space. What a incredible statements. Yes, and you know, we did sign a space treaty all the way back in nineteen sixty seven basically, and there was I think there's one hundred and eight countries on the treaty. But treaties are broken all the time. Yeah, I think that, you know,

it's always good to be safe. And you know, if our communications system was wiped out, I mean we're very vulnerable when it comes to our satellite system right in so many ways. You know, it could it could really destroy our country and cause chaos very rapidly if something happens. So I think

that's probably the classified stuff. Yeah, And I mean how this relates to UFO, it's also is that, of course, if we've got technology up there, especially satellites that can move or change direction, which some people are speculating is what he's referring to, that the Chinese and Russian to have such

technology that those would easily get mistaken for UFOs. In fact, that's essentially one of my sightings was what looked like a satellite that turned around and went the wrong the other direction, And of course satellites shouldn't be able to do that, but I could have been looking at something that was, you know, an advanced secret project satellites that can do that. So I don't know.

So that's how it relates. You know. It's just there's a lot of stuff in space we don't know, and some of it as our so in fact, maybe all of it is we don't know, but of course there are some big mysteries up there. So I think this is an interesting statement. And to kind of coupled with this, there's a writer who works in this field that you and I have interviewed, Tyler Rogueaway, and he writes on defence projects and the aerospace classified projects and that sort of thing.

He's got an interesting story out here about Vandenberg Air Force Base and essentially the Space Shuttle processing facility. So the Air Force was going to have its own secret space shuttle where it's going to do secret projects. And some of you maybe saying, well they do they have a mini one, which is true. They have this little mini space shuttle they fly up that does these top

secret projects. We don't know what it's doing up there. But what Tyler says is, even though that's the case, we know where they fly that thing out of and if I were to call up the Air Force, they would tell me, oh, yeah, we fly that out of here and there, but what it does is secret and I can't tell you. But what's weird is there's only one facility where he's ever had the experience where he calls up and says, hey, what are they doing at this facility?

And they say, we can't tell you. And that's what's a mystery here. So they after this project to create an Air Force space shuttle that got canned, they didn't even fly it. They built it but didn't fly it. But this base they then started flying Delta four rockets out of it. After that, just a few years ago it went secret. Somebody bought it and they're doing some work there and they've obviously upgraded it and there's a lot

of activity, but what they're doing we don't know. So he speculates on some of the technology that might be being developed there and flown out on the ocean right outside of there. And it turns out I didn't even know this, but he reviews this that out in the ocean in that area in southern California is the largest kind of testing range for the military. It's out over the ocean. It's this restricted airspace where they do lots of maneuvers and flying.

He also mentions the Nimets UFO experience or you know, encounter from two thousand and four, and he notes that this is the area where that happened. You know, The point is, it's not too big of a surprise that it was in, you know, a military zone where they do military exercises. And also back in two thousand and four is when they were doing the Delta rockets, so it's not like they were flying whatever they saw Nimets

in the nimet's encounter there. But that's just kind of the relation, but another story of some of a facility that's doing some advanced technology that we're not aware of. So there's a lot going on that way now as far as as far as protected airspace. It just seems like one hand would know what the other is doing and this wouldn't happen in other words, they wouldn't be seeing, you know, something unusual flying that was you know, that was

being tested. It seems like there would be some type of communication going on there as far as like the tic TAC and all that. Yeah, you know, if that was something, that's exactly a great point that you know, they do notify each other when they're flying stuff like that, you know, because they don't want people to get hurt or you know, people have speculated that the two thousand and four and immitt ins and it was just a test of a rocket, and there were testings of rockets going on at the

time, different types. But of course what was described and what was witnessed by several witnesses is an object for a period of time then matched the maneuvers of one of the eighteens uh and then darted off at a very fast speed, all of which just not you know, a missile wouldn't do that sort of thing. So that's why that has been ruled out. But yeah, just interesting stuff. Another story is a news on the bob Lasar front.

So we've been seeing a lot about this raid that happened while Jeremy Corbell was filming this movie about Bablazar, the guy who was the witness in the you know, kind of alleged witness blower, whistleblower at Area fifty one, who says he was working back engineering alien aircraft. Of course we only had to have his word that that has been happening. Well, while Jeremy was filming about Bob and interviewing him, the FBI came and raided Bob Lasar's house.

And so far they've been telling us that, you know, this was about the FBI looking for receipts, that there was someone who bought something from Bob Blazaar that was potentially illegal, and so they wanted receipts from this purchase from many years ago. And that's what we've been told. But of course they could have just called to get these receipts. They didn't have to raid to

get the receipts, so they know is overkill. Well, we just found out because this retired police officer, Tim McMillan went and was able to get a local police report that no, that isn't a story that actually this person who purchased this material he purchased well we don't know what he purchased, but Bob Blazar sells this stuff called thallium, I think that's how you say it,

and he sells a legal version of it. But thallium can also be a poison in another form, and this person was killed with thallium poison years ago. They suspected that Bob Blazar sells this poison, and that's what the police report says. They suspect he sells it. So they raided not just looking for the reas, they were also looking for this poison, apparently suspecting that Bob Blizzar sold it. And according to the pre support, they were

convinced he did sell this stuff. Bob Blazar wasn't arrested during that raid, so apparently they didn't find anything. But that's why there was hasmat there and why this raid was a big deal. Not you know, it would seem out of proportion if they were just looking for receipts, but they were looking for more than that. Wow, it just goes to show how things can be taken out of proportion and everything else about the speculation. It was element

one fifteen. And I know that's why you've got to ask. That's why the journalistic process is so important, because you have to seek the root of the information. It may Sometimes things may in appearance seem very mysterious and leave you to want to jump to conclusions. This rate is a perfect example.

You think, Wow, they're obviously harassing this guy because that was They didn't need to have all these people there and has Matt and everything, unless maybe they were looking for element one fifteen, this mysterious element that supposedly Bob Blazar saw. Well, here you go. When you look at the roots,

you find a prosaic answer. That's happened with a tip. Recently, people were wondering, oh, there's all this mystery about how you know a tip was called one thing and now it's called something else, and what's going on here? Well, I interviewed lou and it turns out, you know, the the details are actually much more prosaic and makes sense. So you know, you don't know what you don't know until you interview and ask. You know, Uh, you got to be careful not to jump to assumptions.

Mm, which happens a little bit in this It does a little bit. Another story, Psychology Today wrote a story UFO's Close Encounters and the Cry for Meaning. They reference Carl Jung, who said, man cannot stand a meaningless life. Now, I haven't read this story, to be honest, but Carl Jung I have read his book. He has a book on UFOs. Now Here's what's important to understand is that Carl Jung did believe that, you know, UFOs and stories about aliens replaces the old tales about seeing ghosts or

saints or fairies or Jesus, and that all makes sense. That we're all looking for a meaning, we're looking towards the supernatural. That's what religions are based off of, is kind of our relation with the supernatural, even by

definition if you look up religion. So but however, even though Carl Jung said that's a lot of what this phenomena represents for us, he was adamant that he felt there was a true mystery, and he actually had written letters that he felt that the Air Force was even covering up information about UFOs. So Carl Jung was very much into that this was a genuine phenomena but also a symbolic phenomena that was important to human beings. Yeah, there's so many

facets to it when you really think about it. Yeah, oh exactly. I mean there's so much to look at and what it represents for all of us. Another article that came out in the Metro is actually about something that's been batting around the internet. Is this patent by the US Navy. It was submitted by a Navy scientist. The patent is about essentially a triangular shaped anti gravity device. Now the patent, just because you submit a pattern doesn't

mean you can actually build the device. It means that this is a theory for how something might work, and I want the rights to it, you know, if I'm able to build it. And so that's what a pattern represents. So it doesn't mean that they've built something like this. But what's interesting is the file was put in. The patent was filed in twenty sixteen, and that one of the authors of the articles that is referenced in you know, essentially that they were able to build this theory off of or is

how put Offs. So How put Off is one of the physicists who worked with Big Low and the Pentagon program, UFO program. He's worked on remote viewing and stuff like that. So that's what makes this patent interesting is that how is involved, and you know, and to the stars right now is trying to develop you know, they say that one of the things they want to do is develop anti gravity devices based off of technology they observed and help

put off as part of their groups. So people are speculating that perhaps this is a technology they hope to develop. I've never really understood that part of it about observing something and trying to replicate from observation. It just seems that seems like trying to replicate a magic trick that you see in front of your eyes, you know, without knowing the magic behind it. It's true, but in your analogy, that does happen where magicians see their magicians do something

and then they try to back engineer the magic trick. And I love that analogies back engineering the magic. Ooh, that's a good term. So, I mean it's possible. What they say is that things like the auroras, the color of the auroras, other types of things that can be determined, can help give clues to the technology, and they believe that they've gotten enough clues to do something with it. I don't know that interesting discovery magazine.

I'll just go through these quickly. Remember you could see all of these links in the front page of Openminds dot TV but there is an article where they're discussing the Drake equation a little further on Discover magazine. This is the equation that tries to determine how many extraterrestrial civilizations are out there, and it essentially determines that there's a lot. This is a really important one. UFO. Joe, who I just had on recently on the show, Joe Murghy posted

that article. He was talking about that with Senator Harry Reid. In one of the quotes he highlights, heres, people are afraid to step out for fear of people criticizing them for talking about extraterrestrial things. So essentially he's saying that there are a lot more people, important people interested in this topic. Then we know that he's talked to and they just don't want to talk about it publicly because they don't want to be ridiculed. Well hopefully that'll change,

yeah, a little, hopefully. And then the Newsweek had a article that most people felt was really boring and kind of lame. And yeah, it's not the best article, I would say, but it's about the top UFO cases out there. Did you look at that one? I just glanced at it, and it's funny when these things happened. You know, I always feel like arguing with them what they you know, it's just because you know,

who's to say really, you know, I hear you. I know, yeah, you're right, I mean exactly, And it's very arbitrary. And I guess what's tough is taking the top cases from Newsweek. They don't have a clue. Come on, I mean, it's rare that they would look too into it to really find something out. Unfortunately, the mass media doesn't use its due diligence and researching very hard when it comes to UFOs.

It would give this article more credibility if they would have referenced perhaps someone in the note, like if they would have said, according to Nick Pope, you know, and Nick Pope obviously is very aware of many of the great cases, so that would have been a more interesting list. Hmm yeah. Yeah. But Carlou Alisonda, I recognize these, I recognized the sightings. Is just I don't know if i'd call them the top, you know, in the very top. Yeah, they do have some good ones, but

you know some of them, you know, are there are controversial? Yeah? There too. Yeah. I guess the biggest complaint, which is agreed, is how can you even review or talk about what a great case it is in one paragraph, which is about all they give gave to each of these cases, right, exactly, Yeah, it is. Every one of

these is one paragraph. But they are great cases. It's one thing I would argue, and that you know, if you're disappointed with the coverage that news what gave for these cases, google them and you'll find out, especially go to open minds dot tv and do a search there for these cases and you'll find out a lot of credible, great information. Right, you can do your own exploration. Yes, all right, we're out of time, buddy, I saw that. Wow. Well, thank you so much for

joining us again this week. Remember you guys can hear Martinott podcast UFO. Yeah, thank you, thank you, my friend. Let's go ahead and talk to our guest Bryce Zabel. He'll be right on after this short musical interlude, unless you're listening on a radio stage and then you'll hear a short break. Otherwise we'll be back with Bryce Zabel on Open Mind UFO Radio. I am terribly happy to have back on the show, Bryce is Zabel, So I always love to have you on the show. How are you doing.

I'm doing great, Alejandro, and thanks for having me back on It's very interesting. Over my career, I guess I've gotten more comfortable talking about UFOs at night, but I always say to talk to you about UFOs during the daylight, which is is a little more positive. I like that. I like that too, because my whole thing is, you know, we got to be bold, we got to get out there, and that's why I try to be I mean, I think I even try to overdo it.

I'm very careful about, you know, citing sources and being journalistic because we have to not be afraid of, you know, getting out there and talking about this. We don't need to do it in the middle of the night. We can do it during the day, especially for sharing credible information. Well, it's it's interesting. I would. I hope that is the

case. I mean, I absolutely hope that is the case. And I hope that none of us who are talking openly about it or painting big old targets on our backs for somebody, oh we are, you know, I hope that's not happening. I hope, I hope whoever is in charge of managing this secret and this information over the years has a you know, has a positive, evolving sense of how to go about it, and it doesn't

involve silencing guys like us. So far, so good. Although guys like us because we are in the media, there is that aspect, and I think that it's important that you know we're cognizant of this, is that media always gets used as useful idiots, essentially given information to share that serves a purpose that we don't know, but we still have an obligation to report it.

And well and frankly, people like you are are far beyond useful idiots at this point because you're taking information not from from a lot of different sources, you're applying journalistic ethics and thoughts to it, you're applying scientific discussion to it, and you're you're looking at information from multiple sources in different ways. So you're not being spoon fed anymore. And I think that's the that's the

good thing about where we are right now in twenty nineteen. Well, and that's what I try to do, is that you know, first of all, it's important to be there and if we are being used, but at the second on the second half, it's also we can take the other information that's credible out there and match it up and see what we get to hopefully identify any discrepancies. And you know, that kind of brings us to today. We've got a tip and you know, I've admitted I'm kind of friendly

with Louie Alizondo. I'm gonna have him on the show. Here. People are like, you know, they've got to be bs and and feeding disinformation. I think over the last couple of years we've seen that everything that loose tell us has kind of come to fruition and we've found it from other outlets, and of course George nappis sharing a lot of information. He's a great

journalist. They're in Las Vegas. So I think that we are being smarter and by now I think we're seeing, especially with witnesses coming out, that this is some pretty good information we're getting. Yeah, it's good information, and it's becoming more complete. The puzzle picture is filling in a little bit. It's interesting you've just named somebody who you know, they always play that game, who would you like to have dinner with? And if could be

living or dead. If it was living, I think Loue Alisando is somebody I want to have dinner with I've met a lot of people in this UFO business, but I have not met him, and he seems to me like a very important man at this time in history. And I guess the other guy I'd like to meet right now would be Tom DeLong to figure out, you know where he's Have you met Tom? Do you know Tom? I've

spoken to him on the phone. He actually came to the Congress and you might have been there, but I was so busy I didn't even know he was at dinner. He was at the dinner the whole time, and I didn't get to meet him, and I really regret that. So I've been invited to come down to their store. They're just in Encinitas and they're not far from you, and they have meetings there. I think, you know what. I hesitate to say this, but I think we're talking road trip.

I think you and me in a road trip. It sounds good to me. An excused to be that at the beach and I love Inntonitas.

Oh, it's it's fantastic, and you know, you know, all kidding aside, These are two people that are doing the good work right now, and as are you and a number of other people right now, and this is the time to continue to network, to get the people who are the leadership of this to start to mend themselves together so that we can we can present kind of a unified front in the cause of disclosure, which is what

we're talking about. One of the topics we're going to talk about is disclosure and this does matter and segue into it because we'll be talking about what is the definition of disclosure and are we seeing disclosure here? And speaking of Tom DeLong before the show comes out later next month, I've already written this story. I've written a story why the heck is this rock star, you know, investigating UFOs with these former intelligence officials on this History Channel show, And

that's the gist of the article. But what the article explains is none of this would have happened without Tom DeLong. So you can make fun of him all you want, playing his guitar and his underwear, you know, running around with the girls and whatever the goofy stuff he used to do, but we would not be here if it wasn't for Tom DeLong. He is the definition of a catalyst. He is someone who you know, through the force of his own will has willed certain events into happening, and I have to

say that's terrific. And you mentioned George Knapp, who I happen to think is probably probably the best journalist reporting on this today in my view, and he's you know, I know, Tom has been a controversial character, but I sat down for lunch with George and he said, Tom's the real deal. So I believe George is the real deal. So I believe Tom is the real deal. Yeah, George is all right. Well, George and Tom, I'm just very impressed with what they've gotten done. So that brings

us to our topic of disclosure. So you have been inspired lately to get on Twitter and to kind of start some conversations, and one of the conversations you started was, hey, we really need to define disclosure. And it looks you feel you ran into some issues there. So what inspired you to kind of get out there and decide, you know what, right now we

really need to read a fine this And what did you find out? Well, first of all, I wrote a book about it with Richard Dolan ad After Disclosure, and so I've been thinking about disclosure for a long time. But because in the years since that book, came out. I've had a lot of conversations with people like you and many many others, and I realized

that disclosure means different things to different people. There's small D disclosure, there's capital D disclosure, And even in a meeting of people who are in the know, researchers, et cetera, people use the word differently. And I'm not saying that I have any insight into what should actually be the title of it or the definition of it, but I think it doesn't hurt us to start asking about it. Disclosure to me is particularly because the book that Richard

Dolan and I wrote was called AD After Disclosure. We were trying to go for the calendar metaphor that the BC world is before confirmation and the AD world is the after disclosure, which would mean tends to suggest that there's an event, there's a disclosure event that takes you from where we are now in that sort of before confirmation to the after disclosure moment, and that implies that something

happens that literally changes the game. Now what could that be? I mean, I've seen our mutual friend Steve Bassett say it's when extraterrestrial presence is acknowledged. By basically the political class. I think, you know, I don't have his definition in front of me, but I think we need to look at it a little broader because I don't think we know that it's extraterrestrial alone,

or maybe even at all. And I don't know that disclosure, which is kind of a process, is something that can necessarily be done by just, you know, one person making some proclamation. It's a group event. And then my thinking started to evolve a little bit further, which is the disclosure that we've been talking about is really an official confirmation of UFO reality.

And by official, I guess it could be the Pope, it could be the president, it could be the Chinese premiere, somebody gets the ball rolling, okay, But I think disclosure needs a broader definition because we're now entering into the political world where our political representatives are going to have to know what we expect of them when disclosure begins, and so I would say it has to go a little bit beyond just confirming, Yeah, some of those things

that are out there aren't ours. I mean, that's disclosure, But are we all going to be happy when they say that? I don't think so. So I'm trying to. I'm trying to look at a broader definition, which would be disclosure requires the official confirmation of UFO reality, the transparent release of evidence, and independent investigations. To me, that's when disclosures full on

happening. We've got to go beyond just standing up, you know. I mean if Donald Trump stood up tomorrow and said, yeah, I think UFOs are real, I mean, I don't think that would be the end all be all. I think that would just be a starting gun. And maybe not even that, because half the people that heard him say it would say, I don't believe anything the man says. Anyway. You know, I

think you raised a lot of great points. Now, Antonio and I at Open Minds used to talk about this a lot because we would right about it, and you know, back when we're doing the magazine and everything, and

we had our whole crew there at Open Minds. That's when Bassett and a lot of the other disclosure people were out and they were debating themselves what the definition was, and Antonio always stuck to and I think he's right that the disclosure, at least the way that we've been defining it, is a political process. When politics gets involved and starts to release this information. And we hear this a lot speaking of Trump. You know, we always hear impeachment

as a political process, that disclosure is the same. It's attached to by definition politics, and that's how we always went forward thinking about it. But you know what, there's also what Big talks about. I love this. I don't know if you've heard him talk about this. He talks about confirmation. He says I could give it damn about he loves that I can give it damn. He kind of looks like Rex Butler, I guess in a little bit of a way. But maybe that's why he likes that term.

But he's like, I think what's more important. He says, he thinks disclosures happen. He thinks the government has, you know, essentially admitted there's a phenomena going on that we don't understand. He likes to use the word confirmation, that he's looking for confirmation when all of the public realize that this is a thing. Well, you know, first of all, it's a good discussion to have because it's good to get people talking about it, and

confirmation is certainly a part of it. You can't really have disclosure. If you don't confirm something, I try to. Here's my long version of what I want from disclosure. It's like I may not be defining it, but I am trying to define what I want from it. Okay, my first take on it was disclosure requires global confirmation of non conventional uap UFO reality made public by multiple official sources in a way that allows citizens to investigate and engage

the phenomenon openly and without ridicule. Okay, that's my long version. But what I mean by it is that somebody official can't just say yeah, yeah, some of that's real and then dodge forever. They've got to say it in a way that this stigma that's been put on people who want to talk about this topic is removed, that it's not We're not going to be denied

and ridiculed anymore. That whoever is disclosing anything, the political system needs to move in in a way that allows us as citizens to do our own investigations and to use our governments to aid and help in those investigations, because you know, we have a lot of missing time of you know, missing political time to make up for. Once we toss this into the body politic. You know, that's a starter's gun, but we're not going to finish that

race for quite some time. And this is the other hard part of all of this is, you know, I think, first of all, everything's very compartmentalized. People have to realize that a lot of people have been talking. Well, Louie Alisondo, if he worked on a UFO program, how can he not know about this? How can he not know about that? Well, if those other things are going on, then he might not know

about those things. Then the other question was, you know, at least in my mind, I'm thinking, well, maybe there isn't anything else going on and he's got the only game in town. But lately we've heard Harry Reid, we've heard him, we've heard others say there are other programs and other departments that they're aware of, and even going so far, I think read even said that he thinks they might be coming out in the light here

soon. So I mean, Harry Reid is if we gave a disclosure Person of the Year award, I you know, while well Elizondo probably got it for twenty eighteen or twenty seventeen, I give it to Harry Reid for twenty nineteen, So right, I mean, I just think this is the man who, Yeah, I watched on the news as the head of the Senate for years, and I always thought, well, he's a button down kind of guy. And you know, beneath that the button down was beating a

heart that knew that UFOs are real. And how great it is that he's willing to step up front. He's and I like what he's you know, what he is saying is disclosure of its own kind. He's saying, there's facts out there that prove these things are real. Okay, that's let's just call that level one disclosure. I mean, but it can't just be one guy. It can't just be Harry Reid confirming just that there's something to study

we need to get. If it's just going to be a confirmation that some of this is real, then we need it even higher than Harry Reid. It needs to go to the President and the Congress and so forth. And then there's the level two of disclosure, which is give us some details. Because I cannot believe that a government and a world that has been studying this

since the end of World War two and that is pretty much confirmed. I can't believe they don't have some conclusions by now, and I want to see those conclusions and want I want to be able to talk about the interpretation of those conclusions without being ridiculed for doing so. And this is the transition that we're all trying to go for. And by the way, we just danced around it. But I'm just going to lay this out there right now. It is distinctly possible, and I hope you're all sitting down. It is

distinctly possible that Donald Trump will be our disclosure president well. And I wanted to bring that up because that perplexes me the whole that with this administration. But we'll get into that in just a minute. I do want to address one other thing, because there could be for people having hang ups there and saying no, Harry. First of all, there's people having heart attacks all

over your radio audience at that pot. But go ahead, please, Oh I know, but there are people like you know, I think, thinking, well, the only reason Harry reads in this because he was trying to get money to his buddy Robert Bigelow. But I want to put that in perspective Robert Bigelow. This is according to Bloomberg by twenty thirteen, he had spent a quarter of a billion dollars on his inflatable space habitats and all out

of his own pocket, a quarter of a billion dollars. He did not need the twenty two million dollars they got for this program to put in his pockets. And actually the facts are he that twenty two women million wasn't enough to complete the work that they wanted to do, so he spent money out

of his pocket beyond that twenty two million dollars. And if you think about first of all, yes, stand up for Robert Bigelow, because really this guy is a hero too, and he should be acknowledged for being out front and being clear. And let's also acknowledge that twenty two million dollars, twenty two million dollars is a lot. It changed my life a lot, and it probably changed yours and everyone who's listening. But in terms of money,

you throw it a problem such as UFOs are. In terms of acknowledging what they are and understanding them, well, first of all, it's pretty clear that our black budgets have thrown billions of dollars into their study over the years, and so this twenty two million dollars, is you know that's chump change

for investigating a phenomenon that's this large, and just think about it. There are some reports out there that if we could get those DECLASSI, that would curl your hair, and I'd like to get my hair curled at this point,

right. And I'm excited to see the History Channel show because according to Lou, this History Channel show that's going to be focusing on to the Stars, and it sounds like it's really centered around Lou because he would work for the government investigating UFOs and now how he's investigating UFOs in the private sector with Tom DeLong and to the Stars Supposedly there will be some more revelations about cases that they had looked at in the government program a tip and that some of

these aren't better than the Knimets case. And I think you would agree the Nimet's case is pretty extraordinary. Oh you know those are It's a great case. And I think the interesting thing is because we started talking about trying you to define disclosure, it is a moving target because what literally is happening under our feet and will accelerate and become a thing after this unidentified program is more and more of us will say, yeah, there's pretty good evidence that something's

going on. Well, that's progress because we've not had that before, and and that will be an incremental step. It may blow your mind, this Nimtz case, but it's you know, I most of my friends have never heard of it, and maybe more of them will, and maybe more of them will be knowledge about to start talking about it. And then once we establish that beachhead that there's literally government video and technology put to you know,

seeing some of these for what they are. Once you get more people accepting that, then the question is going to become, well, okay, what's the official response to what they are? It's you've shown me they exist, but what are they? And at that point, I think you start to get a more radicalized electorate and population that say, it's not acceptable to me that our government found out what these things, that these things exist. I

would like to know the details. But what's interesting is I think there's two major schools of thought I should say three that have been revealed in looking into the details of how these government programs worked. There is the school of thought that we don't know that there's a phenomenon, and this would be louell Esando, who is the closest we have to an official voice to what's going on. Essentially, he's like the head of blue Book. You know, he

was head of a UFO project. He says, we don't know. We know that they are technology that are beyond our own, but we don't know. However, some of the things that scientists are looking into in that work with a tip and outside of it are more prone and comfortable. Interesting enough, in my experience talking with these scientists to go the interdimensional route to say that, you know, we're learning so much about interdimensions. Maybe dimensions can

interact with each other and somehow that's what we're seeing. I think that's really interesting that scientists are largely kind of moving in that direction. It's very interesting because because that's sort of they're adapting the John Keel and the Jacques Vlet kind of take on this. That's it's probably more than nuts and bolts from another planet, right exactly. Which I love that perspective because it's the scientific one. You know, that's where valet and we've got to follow the data,

and the data just hasn't given us anything definitive yet. The second one would be that there's nothing to it, that it's all silly. But there is a major third opinion that has had a tremendous effect, and that is that it's demonic. That there is a large contingency of Christians inside of Christian officials inside the government who have not wanted to even investigate any of this because it's a demonic and we ca can't mess with it. And we heard this years

ago from how put Up when they were doing their remote viewing. They're essentially kind of esp research and you know, running a successful program for like decades doing this, but the religious faction said, no, this is demonic, we can't do it anymore. And sure enough we hear from lou at least the first iteration of this organization also got squashed for that same reason. Well, there's no question that there are people that take that point of view.

In fact, when I was working on a show called Mantis, my fellow executive producer knew more about UFOs than me, but he was sure that they were all angels and demons, and yet he was very well versed on it. And I think there's a lot of people like that. On the other hand, I've done some polls on my own like this Twitter site, and

angels and demons came in dead last out of four options. You know, so well, it may be that there are embedded people in our government who are feeling that, and maybe that's why they've gone they've slow walked any disclosure. I don't think that the majority of the public in any way thinks that's

the case. But in a way, it almost doesn't matter, does it, Alexandro, Because the truth of the matter is, there's probably a phenomenon that we are interpreting differently, but the phenomenon is probably what it is. In other words, somebody may look at this phenomenon and say, oh, those are fairies and folklore, and somebody else may say, no, it's angels and demons, and somebody else may say it's extraterrestrial, and somebody else

may say it's interdimensional. They're probably looking at roughly the same thing, or at least a collection of things that are related. So this is why I want the people and we've got to take a break. So hold that that. We've got to take a break right now, pick up the rest of this and get into something else that you brought up just some minute ago. After this break. For those of you listening to the podcast, you'll hear

a short musical interlude. For the rest of you, you'll hear some commercials. But we'll be right back with Bryce Zabel. So stay tuned to Open Mind UFO Radio. Welcome back to Open Mind UFO Radio. This is your host, Alejandro Rojas, and we are here with Bryce zab And we were just talking about kind of that third faction to religious faction, and you were

finishing up your point there. Oh, I think I was. Uh. I think what I'm saying is I don't think that the even if that is an explanation for why there are people in our government who have resisted telling the truth. I don't think that's the reason why they haven't told it. I think I think that's a relatively recent phenomenon, if it even exists, you know that that people in the government have resisted telling us because of this this

demon kind of thing. I just think whatever this phenomenon is is obviously very distressing in some respects, and that it's bigger than our ability to comprehend it. And as time has gone on, much has been studied. So I think that there's a lot of information that the government and others possibly out of government have and it just hasn't been shared for reasons that don't have anything to do with demonology. Mm hm. Although you know, but again we could

be wrong. Who knows, I mean, we don't know. I think that the scary part is, you know, it could be hampering a stance. And I think what happens with these groups is that they there's these big echo chambers, you know, essentially, and I think there's a lot of

that going on. We have these segments of the population that we don't see because they're outside of our realm, but they exist there where people are going to these meanings, like you know, going to these meetings and having these so for instance, Roswell has its own kind of religious based event every year and there are a lot of people there. It's just those people don't interact with us because they're like, well, you know, I already learned from

my church about this their demons. Why do I need to listen to Bryce. Well, that may be true, although I'm getting a little I'm not down with trying to dismiss ufology as some kind of modern religion. I know that was popular in this latest book that came out from Diana Pasolka. I just don't buy it. I don't want Rosweld to be dismissed. Because people go there and have fun at a festival doesn't change the underlying reality of it.

The underlying reality is that event probably happened, and there probably were bodies and crafts and that happened. And the fact that people make funny alien blow up models in Roswell seventy years later, I don't think is a knock against the original thing. So, you know, I don't know, there's enough. There's so much going on right now. We live in a really interesting

time. But you know, just to follow the Roswell thing, there's this article out in Newsweek right now about the best cases, and they come up with their little plan to rate the best cases in UFOs and I was frankly really intrigued. I mean, it's great to have some kind of mainstream media look at this. But what's the first thing they do They dismiss They start their list of cases with the worst possible one. They call Roswell, all

right, And why does Newsweek call Roswell the worst possible case? Because the government in nineteen ninety seven said it wasn't It never happened, And because the government said that there were dummies that were the reason why people thought they saw bodies, and because of that, in less than one paragraph, they dismissed

the whole thing. Is the worst case. So I got to tell you, we are getting more people talking about it, but we still got to bring the game up of some of the media who just they want to talk about it now, but they aren't assigning anybody to actually dig deep into this and try to understand it. They're just tilling the same old nonsense and it's

time for us to go up a level. That's my take. I agree, And it's been one of the difficult parts with the media, and we've talked about this before, is that you know a lot of people in mainstream media do not feel they have to put their normal due diligence to work when they're writing about UFOs, and they would writing for anything else. And it is unfortunate because that's why I've been trying to really push and you know, I got to be involved with this CW show and I wrote this article about

how you know, at the very least there is a cover up. We know for a fact you know that those pictures, that debris is not what what was found, and that is if you're a journalist, you have to cover that aspect because there's your reason that there's a conspiracy because we have a cover up, and so what's going on here, and by glassing that over or not even covering it shows they're not doing their their homework at all.

It just cracks you up. I mean, here is a Newsweek reporter assigned by the magazine to write this article who says, the extent of my investigation of this topic is that I'm going to dismiss Roswell as the worst case ever because the government denies it happen. Right. Wow, that's hilarious. That's like lazy, lazy piece of journalism, that is Yeah, I mean unfortunately, yeah it didn't happen. Oh well, case closed, everybody go home. Nothing to see here, Yeah, exactly, which is hilarious. But

you know, it's probably good. We had also that religious conversation getting into this next topic you brought up. You know, maybe Trump will be the disclosure president. I'd love to hear why your thoughts are on that. But this has been curious to me. Why this administration has been completely silent on the UFO topic because Clinton Hillary brought it up during the campaign at the beas

kind of pressured by John Podesta being kind of pushed along on that. And you know, I thought for sure that the Republicans would jump on that to make fun of the campaign, but they didn't. Really the media did, but the Republicans didn't, right, And he has not touched the topic at all. And now I think maybe it's because he is kind of the evangelical president. I mean, certainly that's a big part of his base, and

maybe he doesn't want to go there because of the demonic reason. I don't know, I don't I think he hasn't touched the topic because he doesn't really hasn't really thought about it, and he probably I'm not saying he's going to be the disclosure president because he chooses to be. I'm just saying if he gets re elected in particular, then you've got a horizon of the next six

years out there, okay. And I happen to think that the transition to where we feel like we are in a disclosure world, the post disclosure world, that after disclosure world, I think that's going to happen in the next six years, and so as a consequence, if he gets reelected, then he'll be the guy standing when it happened. That is what will make him

the disclosure president. There's a reason, though, There's a couple of reasons why he may have avoided it. One is if Hillary was talking about it, then he doesn't want to be Johnny come lately to a Hillary issue. And then the other thing is I mean, and I say this to you know, I have friends that are Trump supporters and friends that aren't. And so I say this not in a way to be pejorative one way or the other, other than to say, we know that Trump is the center of

his own universe. That's just the way his brain is wired. And I'm not sure that a revelation that the world and the universe is a lot bigger and stranger and grander than we ever imagined is something that his brain wants to get behind. So I think if he becomes the disclosure president, it will become one of the greatest ironies in history because he'll simply be the guy on

the watch when it happens. But once he decides to talk about it, whoa watch out the floodgates will be open, and I wouldn't be surprised, to be honest with you, if it comes out in the twenty twenty campaign as an issue that he comments on. I think, if anything right now, this twenty twenty presidential election has the potential of really making progress toward disclosure, because there's every single person who's listening right now could if they wanted to

go to a town hall for a presidential candidate. There's plenty of them out there, and they could go to that town hall and they could put their name in to ask a question, and they could ask in a respectful and knowledgeable way what the candidate thinks about the issue of investigation of UFOs and a tip and things like that. And so I think we're entering a period where

this might leak into it. I was surprised it didn't leak in more strongly to twenty sixteen, but I think we're teed up for it to happen in twenty twenty. Now here's a question for you. The way it's happening now is that you know Elisander's come out, he has colleagues, and of course we have the whole big Low faction, and that's what I call the majority of the people into the stars. And that's another thing people have to realize. They're like, oh, these people are part of some insider disclosure.

Well you've got to look at the history. Someone like how put Off has been working at looking into and legitimizing paranormal topics for decades since before I was born. Literally, he's been working on this sort of thing. That's the you know, this physicist who worked with Bigelow, and he worked with a Tip and he's worked with all kinds of different things on this front. Same goes with John Alexander, who I've had on the show. Same goes for

many times. But same goes for Bigelow and all of these others. They've been in, you know, kind of fighting this fight in at a higher level and in the scientific realm, so they have a lot of access. And now we have people like Steve Justice, who was a you know, work for Lackheed Martin. And we have Chris Mellon who is part of the Melon Empire, you know, and no doubt he was a deputy Intelligence secretary. I mean, So we have access to these people who can get information

to the highest levels and are doing that. So we've got this momentum going, and we're getting I think, better information via these routes than a politician who's just going to try to spin it in a way that makes them look good and they're going to cherry pick information. Yeah, but the distinction is the people you're referring to, the Justice and Melon and everyone who's approaching this

in this new investigative, scientific way. They have to be there doing their work, but what pushes it over the finish line is literally their work becoming the basis that allows our political system to change itself. And one of the ways we have to do that is by forcing our politicians to start talking about it. You know. And whatever people think about Hillary Clinton, at least she did talk about it, and that was that was a radical new thing.

And we're going to need more of that, particularly just the cycle back to where we started. If indeed disclosure is when somebody official, uh says this is really going on, then that is a political issue. And and and I can't expect people to start talking about it out of nowhere. They have to. We have to start that discussion now. People have to start asking their senators, their congressmen. You know, it's a legitimate question.

Uh. And it's easy to ask you simply say, uh. Senator Harry Reid has called for investigations into UFOs and there's this project called a TIP and there's increasing good cases that we that the government showing us. What do you what's your opinion on this? Are you going to support congressional hearings. It's a pretty simple question. I'd like to know what most I think every candidate ought to be on the record about that. Yeah, that makes sense,

I think one of the other Uh. Here's here's kind of my thinking on this has been and this is why I love the scientific community for uh UAP research. They changed their name and and and this is why, you know, I've always felt that we need a SETI of ufology because politicians will often rely on you know, they need their credible UH backup that they can rely on. So they need the Michio Kaku's or the someone to come out that they can say, well, look, this is what MITCHILLOCACU says. It's

going to back up whatever they're saying. UH. And SETI used to be seen as fringe, and now they're not because they tackled the most skeptical by Nature group of all the scientists, and uh, they were successful that way.

I think that's going to be important that we at least create a community, even if it's small community of scientists who are willing to publicly state their opinions, because we like the SCU, like the SCU, and the majority of the scientists, even with SCU, a lot of them still want to remain anonymous. They're still worried and they don't want to publicly share their thoughts. It's it's it's true, and we we need you. Although two of

the groups that you mentioned, SETI and then mitchio Kaku. I just listened to mitchill Okaku's latest book, and you know, I just want to grab him and shake him and go stop this, you know, stop talking about how the universe is probably teeming with life and about space travel and how we're going to do it and refusing to acknowledge that somebody else may have done it and beaten us to it. And they're here, and I want to say to Cess Shastak and all the guys that SETI, look, I'm glad that

you're running SETI, but don't be so close minded. You know, you've got to open yourself up. Look at all the evidence, and there is evidence. I mean, look at this a tip stuff, look at the look at that those videos. There is evidence that something is going on that will blow SETI out of the water. SETI is looking for signals from way out there because we want to prove that there's other life in the universe, when the evidence seems to exist currently that that life not only exists, but

it's come and made contact here. Mm hmm. You know what's interesting frustrating, yeah, is there was that scientist Silvano Columbano who kind of made this argument that hey, guys, we you know, we're the primary primary people out there telling everyone that aliens are here, are out there somewhere. We need to take it more seriously when there's potential evidence near earth, there on Earth that there could have been a visitation and you know at some point and

we have to look at those you know. Unfortunately, that story got a little spun and actually I know personally he got embarrassed by it, and he's not talking about it much because unfortunately his message got taken it the wrong way, especially by the UK tabloids. But Shostak chimed in and this is the first time he's ever been open to it. He agreed, he said, you know what, I think he's right that we do need to take get this evidence. Good for Seth, all right, that I'm happy about.

And by the way, uh, what makes this even more complex is if it was just like, hey, are we being visited by UFOs from another planet or not? That's that's a pretty binary choice yes or no. But in reality, the universe is as a quote I always love to throw out from J. D. Saldana physicist, was the universe is not only stranger

than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine. And I think that we're starting to wake up to the knowledge that this is slightly This phenomenon does have a UFO component to it that can be captured as the videos like the Nimetz video and so forth, But there's a whole other element of just paranormal weirdness surrounding it that guys like Keel and Valet and others have highlighted over

the years. And by the way, I have never seen a UFO, but I have been, as we've talked about on other shows, been approached by people that certainly acted like they were real and they seemed real. But I've also had some of those weird paranormal things. Can I just tell you

one of them, because it's so strange. When I was writing After Disclosure with Richard Dolan, he and I don't live in the same town, so we did a lot of work on the phone, and we were talking on the phone and I had a I was working on a document and that was sort of the table of contents thing, and we talked and we were talking about how the number three was an important number. You know, we were just playing around whether you know you see the triangular spacecraft and just other things

about that. No big deal. But so we hung up and I went to bed, and the next day I open up that file and in the middle of that file are three lines of the of threes that are just keystrokes, as if you'd held your finger down on the three and there it was, and it wasn't there the night before, And you know, it's such a small thing, but you go, how did that happen? Yeah? You know what? What? What was that? Here's another one for you.

When I was doing Dark Skies, I told my partner Brent Friedman at the time that I'd read a book, The Mothman Prophecies, or he had recommended it actually, and I so I read it, and I had just finished it, and I'm walking out of a theater and the book is sitting in the backseat of my car. And I'm walking out of a theater late

at night in the dark with my son. We're walking to our car and I see a guy in a long trench coat walking toward us, and I'm thinking that's a little weird, and so I kind of steer us off the path and as the guy walks past us, it's this guy I've never seen before in my life, and he's carrying a copy of The Mothman Prophecies. How funny? Now, people have these things happen, okay? Are they

just synchronicity? Are they related to a larger phenomenon? Who knows. I just tend to think that when that if we don't get started on disclosure, we're never going to get to the answers because the answer probably isn't that simple. And as opposed to angels and demons being the reason for non disclosure over these years, I tend to think it's more like people that are trying to deal with and study with this thing. Art are wondering how do I even

begin to disclose because we still don't quite understand what's going on. But you know, I think that your listeners and yourself and myself would all say, well, that may all be true, but we have to get started anyway. We just have to do it. That brings me to especially now that we're running out of time. But I think you have a unique perspective on this is the role entertainment media plays, and I think there is a role, and this is your space, and so I wonder what you think,

especially given of course Project Blue Book. On the one hand, this Project blue Book show is sensational and there's not a lot of facts. On the other hand, it's based on, you know, actual cases, and it does bring to the public a name that I have always feared for these last decades people will forget, which is doctor j Allen Heinich. Now he's kind of an icon and becoming more of an icon, So people are realizing this guy existed and was pro UFO, which I think is really important and a

positive thing. So can and of course Tom DeLong is trying to get into this space. Can that be? Is that achievable. Is it helpful? What do you think? I have really mixed feelings about Project blue Book. I know the I know it's good that things. It raises people's consciousness to even think that there was a blue Book and even know that there was a Heinech. But we both know, like you know, when they did Independence Day, we didn't say, oh gee, and that's true. No,

we knew it was a film. This thing is being promoted as true. This is the true story of Project blue Book, this is the true story of Jay Allen Heineck. But it's not. And the problem is the vast majority of people who are watching the series actually think Allen Heinik was seeing all the things he sees in that series in the fifties in nineteen fifty two and three, and it just didn't happen that way, and Blue Book didn't happen the way it did. And I think it's a mixed blessing for sure.

I don't I'm not surprised. This is how Hollywood development goes. I'm working on a project right now, and every time I go into a meeting, people that don't know anything about the topic tell me what I should do with it, and their answers are always kind of they're uninformed, and they're destructive to the very idea that I'm trying to talk about. But those are the doors you have to get through in order to get something on the air.

So I'm way more excited about the Unidentified program than I am about season two of Blue Book. So if I had to pick, but what as how do you feel about your work? Then what is the difference between your work And do you think that because I think I would imagine and this is I guess a question. It seems that your goal is to also entertain and educate. Absolutely, listen, I don't I'm the pot calling the kettle black. I'm not attacking Blue Book. I'm just saying I'm saying it's very entertaining.

What I'm saying is you can't really say, I'm not sure that it's advancing the cause of UFO truth as much as we might think. And I never thought my series Dark Skies was doing that. I mean, all I did with Dark Skies was say, look, I'm telling an alien invasion story, so you know, but I'm doing it within the frameworks of euphological events and that you know, And I didn't try to make it, I guess more than that. Whereas I don't think the creators of Blue Book are doing this.

I think it's the History Channel that's pushing the reality of it. Like, you know, they did a Betty and Barney Hill episode that wasn't about Betty and Barney Hill. R sure promoted it as if it was, and I thought it was weird. But I mean, you're you're right. I mean, I can't be too critical. I guess all I'm really saying is

people shouldn't look at Hollywood entertainment product as being revelatory. At this point, I'd go to a good lou Elizondo lecture if you wanted to, you know, take it to the next level of understanding, because what happens there is an inexorable pressure on Hollywood entertainment projects to go big, right, to have some kind of weird thing going on, or to make your character in the

center of it all. And this is just the way it is. That's just always the way it is. But I realize, I'm I'm probably a hypocrit here. Well, no, that's that was not my intent. It was. It was mostly just to get your insight, which is interesting from someone who's in that space and essentially kind of also, So what would your advice for Tom DeLong, because that's what he wants to do is try to

you know, get in here. And we've seen this happen before where people are like, I think the only way I can share truth is through fiction, and they attempt to do that. Is that a lost cause? Or what would you tell Tom? I guess you know it's interesting. Well, first of all, I'd love to I'd love to work with Tom DeLong on one of those things because I think that he he brings a lot of respect and intelligence to the work and it would probably be good. The idea that

you have to tell the truth under the cover of fiction. Remember I literally that's how I started Dark Skies. I had a letter from a so called Majestic twelve agent telling us that you have to tell the truth on the cover of fiction. And that may have actually been true years ago. Now, I think you can just tell the truth. If the truth is your thing, go tell the truth. If fiction is your thing, go tell fiction. I don't think that it's necessary to convert truth into fiction in order to

float crazy ideas. I mean, you don't need to do that. You can float them anytime you want. It's a free country. Look at what

they put on alien ancient aliens over the years. So I guess what I would actually hope that Tom DeLong is able to do, and certainly what I'm trying to do is to hold on to some core beliefs going into if you're doing a television series or dramatic television series, hold on to some core beliefs if you can, and then you know, I guess, I guess you could argue that what Project Bluebook does is if you look at their websites, they have a lot of information about the real cases, and that's all to

the positive. So I don't know. Tom DeLong wrote a book with his co writer to start off, and the only thing I thought was confusing for him is, you know, I'm a television writer producer by trade. He was also starting to the Stars Academy at the same time, so he was trying to have it both ways, and that was a dance that was difficult for him, where he's trying to say, I've got the cutting edge research

and we're going to get to the truth. But while we're trying to get to the truth, I'm going to tell a fiction story and you're gonna have to guess which parts are true. That's just a difficult walk, that's all. Yeah, No, I hear you. And that's what's really difficult, because because he doesn't have to do that. By the way, he should actually say, this is my truth, and I want to tell a fictionalized

story. That would be my advice to him. I think the hard part is is that you know, the rest of the group in TTSA may not have the same truth he has. I guess I'll put it that way precisely, and so in a way, I understand why he wants to do it the way he's doing it. I'm in a similar situation. I might do

the same thing, but they are. It's a bit of magic to get them to work and play together, because you're right, you have hardcore scientists who are really working to get to the bottom line truth, and then you have the entertainment division, right, and that's a little weird. It's like, you know, when I was doing dark skies, I wasn't Also,

you know, doing digs at Roswell looking for wreckage. You know, it's just it's just tough, and we've lived in a time where the people who have maintained this secret have, you know, have used the entertainment product to confuse the issue to the extent that the the entertainment product is so confusing right now even looking at Spielberg. If you look at Spielberg and people go, well, I wonder what he knows, he has done every version of aliens

that exist out there. So there unless unless there are eight different kinds of aliens out there who are interfering with us, then Spielberg is obviously just making some stuff up at the same time, right So exactly, we just live in a confusing time right now. But the overall good news is there are lots of people who are pushing it forward. One of my favorite reads right now on Twitter is a guy that has a is called UFO Jesus. Yeah, he's great. He just has a terrific take on disclosure and I enjoy

reading him. So there's lots of ways to tell the truth, I guess, is what I'm saying. And I'm continuing to try to find projects that are and truth. And I'll tell you I have to accommodate buyers and developers all the time. And obviously when you put up if I were to put any of my projects out, if I were, you know, I have the rights to the Betty and Barney book captured. If I get to make that movie, people will probably criticize that movie as much as some people criticize

Blue Book. And it's just because that's how Hollywood operates. M You know what I love, you know with this conversation, of course, and it's the route that I've taken. Is I really think that, you know, the fiction route is a route. And of course I love entertainment. I mean I love what you do, and I love all the entertainment stuff a lot. In fact, I would be a dream to actually get involved with some of that one day. But of course I'm bogged down in this and

it's kind of like I love this picture that you and Richard take. It is this wood Word and Bernstein kind of mode. And that's where I am. Is that, you know, we just got to look for the information and if we we can't, and it takes a discipline. George Knapp, of course, is my role model for this. You got to look for the credible. You got to substantiate your claims. You need to grab sources and sometimes one isn't enough, or your source isn't good enough, you know,

so you need another one. It's just total of Woodward and birds Dan to get the information out there, and it's hard and it takes time, and it's worked, but it's very satisfying, at least to me. It is satisfying, particularly now that there's a little official cooperation on the cases, so that you don't have to overcome initial reticence all the time when you're trying to talk to people about something, Because more and more people are starting to

go there's something to it. I don't understand it, or it's not relevant to my life right now, but more and more people are saying, yeah, I saw that. That looks pretty crazy. I mean I show some of the videos that came out of the ATIP disclosure and people are pretty blown away by them. Yeah right, yep, exactly. So we are pretty much out of time. But this has been a fascinating discussion. Thank you

so much for coming on the show again. I guess what should people look forward to that you're going to be doing in the future, And is there a website you want people to look at? You know, I've bounced around right now, I'm putting a lot of attention onto the Twitter feed, which is at Hollywood UFOs at Hollywood UFOs, and i'd encourage people to come talk about that. What I have coming up right now next is actually not a

UFO project. I have a big feature film called The Last Battle about the last Battle of World War Two that'll be shooting later this year and be in theaters in a year or so. And you know, but I'm still working on trying to bring more of these truth based projects to the public because I think that's important and I really really feel like we are in the middle of

a transition. So all I would say is fasten your seat belts and buckle up, because here we go right exciting times and you've told me about your new movie, The Last Battle, and it's a fascinating story. So people need to really look this up. In fact, I think in the last podcast we went over it. But definitely look that up, people, and we'll have you back to talk about that too. You know. I'll give

you one highlight though. My Dark Sky's partner Brent Friedman, and I are developing the book I wrote with Richard Dolan ad After Disclosure for television, So that's cool. That would be fascinating. All right, great, Thank you so much, my friends, Thank you, thank you so much to Bryce Abel for being on the show. Like you said, be sure to check him out on Twitter. That's where he's sharing stuff these days, many of us do. He's at Hollywood UFO, so check him out at Hollywood UFOs.

And you know what, we are talking a little bit about the bonus audio, So be sure to join my Patreon. You know, you've got the link down there in the show notes, or you could just look up for me up on Patreon. Thank you so much to those of you who already have, but you can join at the lowest level and still get access to some of the extra exclusive stuff I have up there, including this interview that I did with Bryce. It doesn't appear here, but we talked about

essentially a former Secretary of Energy and aliens. This is extremely interesting and has inspired me to write an article, but I needed to interview Bryce more about it, and that's what you can get on the Patreon if you are a subscriber, so check that out. Bryce revealed this piece of news at the International UFO Congress last year, and that's another big piece of news. The International UFO Congress where there's always breaking UFO news. And sure enough we've got

a lot of great speakers this year and ticketing is now up. The ticketing for the UFO Congress is now up, so be sure to go there to look at the speakers and then get your tickets. Get them because there are some special tickets for like workshops and VIP tickets that there's only a limited number of, so get them quickly. Also, I want you to know that if you order your tickets now, there is a discount coach so you could

get fifty dollars off the packages. So you got to get the full you know, conference packages, and you can get fifty dollars off from now until Thursday. That will be Thursday, the twenty fifth, but Thursday night it ends, so you got to get your tickets by Thursday night. In fact, they're already at a super early bird discount, so you could get this

fifty dollars off. On top of that, use the code save fifty uppercase save fifty and get fifty dollars off your tickets at the International UFO Congress. Go to Ufocongress dot com. You can see the speakers. You can see the schedule and then go to the tickets page and you can buy your tickets.

You could see all the different packages for the different ticketing packages you could get, but I would recommend the highest level because then you get to do everything and do all the cool stuff and you get extra you get saved seating in the conference room. So ufocongress dot com save fifty is a code all uppercase. Anyway, I want to thank everybody who's been helped us out to do this show. Of course Martin from podcast UFO at the beginning to joining

us with the news. Remember Openminds dot tv and you can find all of the UFO news that we talked about. Also, I want to thank Caleb Hanks for the opening end, Closed Music Systematics for the bumper music, and of course you all the listeners. Thank you all for being here and we'll talk to you next week. Until then, audio smooth, chuchos you mus