Love host Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open Minds Radio is the UFO news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the UFO phenomenon. Here's your host, Alejandro Roja. Hello and welcome to open Minds Radio. I guess uh we're on I hear the intro today, but you are listening to open Minds Radio, your UFO news authority. This is Alejandro Rojas and we have another great show. Today's guest it's very special, not that all of our guests are
special, but today we have Ben Hansen. He's the team leader on the sci fi channels Factor Faked. I know a lot of people like this show. Some people get frustrated with it because they debunk some stuff. But we'll talk to him about that, and if you're in the chat, you know, let me know say, hey, man, I want to call him
out on debunking this. But of course their very first show, as we talked about with Jeff Willis, who we had on just a couple of weeks ago, they actually caught their very own UFO footage and in fact, mister Hanson, who will be talking about today or talking to today, actually has been into UFOs and secret projects. For quite some time, and that was his inspiration to get into sociology and criminology, where he went on to work
for the State of Utah on their SVU task Force. I think there's a TV show, isn't one of those y SI or whatever SBU Special Victims Unit, Law and Order? Yeah, Lawn and Order. There's so many of these cop shows it's crazy. And then he also did some criminal investigations for the FBI, so pretty cool stuff that he's done, and all inspired by ufolks. We'll talk to him a lot more about that and his television show. However, a couple of things I want to get into. The conference
is full. I apologize if you wanted to come at the last minute and or fly in, but it's too late, unless maybe you know, you call in and you talk Maureen into it. But no, the only thing that's full is a cocktail. We can probably still. We'll just fit some more chairs in and if you're in the Arizona metro area, definite or the
Phoenix metro area, you know, definitely come and check it out. It's going to be a lot of fun, especially the well all of it, all the speakers, and then we of course we have the Hummer coming to the SkyWatch with some night vision goggles. That's going to be a lot of fun. And we're also giving away a prize. I talked about this a little bit last time, but the UFO Tour, one of our sponsors top secret tours, goes to Arizona and New Mexico and some of the UFO hot
spots. They go to Los Alamos where they developed the nuke. They also go to White Sands where the first nuke was blown up. They go to Roswell and there was some kind of little UFO thing that happened in Rosswell, I guess in northern Arizona. They go to the meteor Crater, Sedona and the Grand Canyon. All a lot of fun. Sedona and the Grand Canyon being beautiful. Grand Canyon I've only seen on TV. I still have not gone to the Grand Canyon. I gotta go check that out. It looks
awesome on TV, especially on now that I have HD. It's watching the Grand Canyon in an HG the other day. That was really cool. Sedona I have been to and that's absolutely gorgeous. And of course they talk about different types of portals and things like that. Of course I'm into science. So I bought this book that said Science and the Anomalist Portals in Sedona, and it was kind of a bummer. And I don't mind if I write
a review on this book. It's going to be very bad review because it starts off that there really is no science around this, and then it goes on to talk about this thing. Well, why call your book science if it's not going to be full of science? Not cool? Whoever wrote that book? So that's got to be really cool. And we're going to be giving away one of these worst something like three million dollars or three thousand dollars. Sorry, it's not three million, three thousand. At the conference,
someone's going to be able to win. That three thousand bucks is still pretty good though to me, you know, I would love some three thousand bucks right now. Another one of our sponsors, a sponsor for the cocktail party, the cocktail party, which is sold out, and you know some of you out there are like, yes, I'm glad I called early. I'm
glad I listened to Aalohandra and called early. Of course, you can register for next week's or next year's cocktail party if you wanted to and I'm not sure if Janine will be sponsoring that one, but the sponsor is Janine London and she has written a novel called brain Chatter, Final Vaccination. That's what she's going to be talking about a little bit about the book. What if they heard every word you said? What if they knew every thought inside your
head? What if they put them there? Based on a woman's struggle against elitist agendas to depopulate and dominate planet Earth. Brain Chatter, Final Vaccination, So it sounds like a very interesting book. Janine's going to be there at the cocktail party to talk a little bit about her book, and she'll be there to sign and sell them and it'll be a lot of fun. So I'm looking forward to meeting her, and we're very appreciative of her participating in
this year's UFO Congress, So it's gonna be a lot of fun. Otherwise, let's see radio shows coming up, k Hen, We're going to be on a radio and if you're in cal Colorado and the Salida area. Interesting enough, one of the most famous UFO sightings was in Salida. Famous UFO videos actually done by Tim Edwards and Salida. But it's also online, but we'll be talking about the Congress on k Hen Salida's channel, which is kind of funny, you know, KHGN and the mascot's a little hen, which
you wouldn't think of. You kind of think of Nebraska when you think of farming and stuff. But actually my high school and it's embarrassing, I'll admit, our high school mascot was the farmer. We were the wheat rich farmers. Mine was an owl. No, yeah, that's pretty bad too. No, owls are cool. Animals are cool, but the wheat rich farmer, even though we mostly had mostly not including me, upper middle class type of people there, so they were middle management. They should have that.
Maybe one day they will the wheat rich middle manager and there'll be some guy in a suit with his briefcase be the logo. That'd be kind of cool. Anyway, that's what's going on, a lot of fun and Moreen's coming me at jerk for letting people giving them the impression that the conference is full, but it kind of almost is. So you better call really really quick if you still want to go, and if you're in the metro Phoenix area, you know, we got room for you guys. But or just go
on the website ufocongress dot com. That's another good way to do it. Otherwise we're gonna have to be sharing, and that gets kind of well, people get to know each other better. I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it's awesome that we've gotten such a huge response. AOL News is going to be doing a story on us, like hopefully tomorrow and the next day. We've gotten a lot of press coming and it's going to be a
lot of fun. So I wanted to talk about that because it's a lot of fun to talk about and we are just overwhelmed with getting that prepared and we're just full of excitement. I am. At least let us move on to Open Minds dot tv and UFO News headlines. So there's UFO news going on all of the time. Something's going on somewhere in the world, if not in multiple places throughout the world. UFOs are buzzing, people flying around,
everybody seeing them. They're freaking out or they're like, oh that's cool. You know, they're loving it. Either way, Can we give you the latest on UFO news and on Open Minds Radio, we always have our news correspondent Jason McClellan to share the latest with us. Hello Jason, how are you? Elee? Hundred? Not bad, excellent. You haven't been to the Grand Canyon? Huh No, I haven't yet. You know, I've lived here in Arizona for probably twenty eight years and I've been once.
Oh my gosh. And you talk to really most Arizona natives and you'll find quite a few who have never been. Wow, that's crazy. It's a tourist spot. You live here, you don't do an Arizona tourist thing, But in Colorado I would. I'd go out and explore and go to all the places. You're an odd ball. Maybe I didn't ski though, that was one weird thing in Colorado. Everybody thinks, oh, you're a snowboarder, right, yeah, that is pretty weird. An elite snowbird is difficult,
no, not mean. Well, Hello everyone, this is your open Mind's News Brave for Monday, February four, nineteenth, twenty eleven. It's Valentine's Day, and being that I'm here and my wife is at home, I guess that makes you my Valentine for the night. Alejandro, Jason, you're breaking me out. Well, it is pretty scary, but you know, I'll probably be in the doghouse when I get home, or not being home on Valentine's But I guess it could be worse. I could be instead
of in the doghouse, I could be kicked to the moon. But I think that'd be pretty cool, and that could be coming very soon. Getting kicked to the moon, yes, because the existence of caves on the Moon has been speculated by scientists for years, but now NASA's scientists have proof. NASA's lunar reconnaissance orbiters successfully recorded an image of a lunar pit in because the orbiter's position and the angle of the Sun, this recorded image allows scientists to
see into the lunar pit for the first time. On previous attempts to photograph the lunar pit, the images returned were too dark to make any concrete determinations. This fourth and most recent image provided scientists with the evidence to prove the
existence of the lunar caves. According to The Daily Telegraph, this discovery could open the door to developing lunar bases because the pit is wide and deep enough to protect people from dangerous meteorite impacts, cosmic rays, and extreme temperature fluctuations. While many scientists have been quick to push space research efforts further out into the universe, at least some scientists still see the value in exploring our closest
neighbor, a neighbor about which we still know very little. Yeah, we've talked about that a lot. How the Moon is so cool, why not go there and hang out and build a space motel. Got to talk to Bigelow about that. And in the hole, in this hole, it's a perfect place to do it. It's very relatively close to us compared to other celestial bodies, and you know, so we can get there, and they keep finding new things about it. Yea though, the water that the ice
on the moons, they blasted their rocket into it. And a lot of the interests or some of the interests lately in the Moon has been about mining. And I hope they don't mind the hell out of the moon. But yeah, but building a hotel up there would be nice. Get a colony going on the Moon, that would be awesome. I'd love that. I want to go to the moon, man, And it's it's the great uh next step I think too, going even farther. Yeah, and they's picked
in the caves. That's pretty exciting. I mean, that makes it easier. It reminds me of the one in Mexico, you know, that giant when they say you can fit the Empire State building in and people are jumping into it with their parachutes all the time like like crazies. In fact, there's some video jose Eskimia got some rod videos right, that's right there, So yeah, that's that's really cool. Well, mainstream science seems to be
shifting its views, taking the search for extraterrestrial life more seriously. Researchers at major universities around the globe are actively searching for life on other planets, including Phil from the University of Calgary's Department of Physics and Astronomy. He will be speaking about the search for extraterrestrial life at the Rothney Astronomical Observatory's open house.
They have one this month and they have them periodically where they invite the public to come in and see what the observatory is up to, and he discusses the technology and how current technology enables researchers to identify planets outside our Solar system
and identify planets that might be good candidates for supporting life. In response to NASA's recent discovery of microbes capable of modifying their DNA to live in arsenic heavy environments, Langell states that scientists still need or they need to start looking in other places. And we have got to be broader in our search because we
don't understand completely. And we've talked about this too, people sort of brushing over planets in their search for planets that could have life because they're looking for life as we know it. Yeah, it's so exciting because there's no doubt to me that they're going to find life out eventure. We we'll find life in space, and it'll be in places we never expected, in ways we never expected, in places we thought it was impossible. Because there's just so
much we don't know. It reminds me I was watching the show I was watching Nature the other day, or no, maybe it wasn't Nature anyway, it was a show about sea life, and you know they go over all these different animals, the steam ray, it does this and we don't know why. The manateee, you know, only the males go out into the ocean and then come back, but they don't know why. The females don't.
The whales, they don't know why they sing all of these things where we don't know why they do what they do, you know, and we think we got it all figured out when we really don't. So it's pretty exciting also to care. Of course, scientists these days are all jumping on that extraterrestrial bandwig and where they're not afraid to talk about it and speculate, whereas it didn't seem to be that way let's say ten years ago. Right.
We hear a lot now with the discovery of new planets and new solar systems, with the highlighting of planets that could possibly be in the habitable zone of that star. But again, that's habitable based on life as we know it, right, And you bring up a great point about life here on Earth. I mean, there's a lot about life as we know it that we don't really know. There's some people that live solely on alcohol, beer completely their whole lives. There might be people in space and beer planet,
beer planet. Yeah, I'm sure lots of people here would enjoy going to live there, Homer Simpsons, there's a planet for everybody. Yep. That's the kind of interesting and anomalists signal was detected recently by a radio satellite utilized by SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. We actually have this audio clip where you can hear this signal that was picked up by these radio satellites. Yeah, kind of cool. Let's see if we can hear that. It's
kind of funny. It's a little bit of a strange noise. Yeah, very weird noise. It sounds so sci fi like, you know. Well, stormers haven't been able to really identify the signal. It's a strong signal too that was picked up, but they have pointed out that characteristics in the signal could point to you a terrestrial source, like an unusual modulation between a GPS satellite and an unidentified Earth based source. But still it's something anomalous.
They have no idea what it is. Yeah, And that's the thing that I think a lot of people don't realize is that they have strict protocols, are strict guideline ties to what they will call certainly you know, a different anomalist type of thing. So it has to be strong enough and it has to repeat several times in order for them to say it's an extra trash definitely an extraterrestrial signal, which is kind of a lot to ask for. I
mean, we don't know. It might have been an extraterrestrial signal and it's just something that wandered this way or some In fact, there's been some criticism for city for this, because how do we know that they're just not like sweeping an area with signals as opposed to sending a signal directly to us repeated. We don't know that so well, and just like we make assumptions.
You know, who's just say that being Salts weren't making assumptions, Yeah, sending us a completely different type of signaling, the sending it once because they assume, oh well, clearly they must be smart enough to receive our signal and know what we're meaning with one try. We don't need to keep repeating it. What are they idiots? Yeah? So right, Yeah, we have no idea what to listen for either, so it's just a guessing game.
Very cool though, that they received these signals. I'm surprised that signal didn't get more news than it did, and especially because it sounds so cool. Yeah, sounds really cool, fairy sci fi. In a recent interview, NASA Administrator Charles Bolden told WLTX in Columbia, South Carolina that he believes
there is a good potential for life in our universe. While that former astronaut claims he never saw an extraterrestrial life in space, he admits that everybody who goes to space wants to see an alien or wants to see evidence that there is other life in the universe. WLTX also interviewed Clifford Cliff, international director for Muffon the Mutual UFO Network, who believes that NASA knows more than they
publicly admit. Cliff stated in the interview, they do have a significant amount of information about the UFO phenomenon well, and we know that from things such as Gordon Cooper, who was an astronaut who saw UFO land when he was in the Air Force. Now I can't remember which base. I think it was Edwards Ornellis, I can't remember right now, but he filmed it and he gave the film over to some Air Force intelligence people because that's what he
was told to do, and he never saw again. Doesn't know what happened to it. Edgar Mitchell and other astronauts who have seen things while they're whether
they were while they're in the Air Force or while they're in NASA. So and John Chushler, who was one of the co founders of MUFAN actually who works very closely with Cliff or Cliff he worked for NASA and that's why he got involved with UFOs because he was in capsule Capsule com or like at the headquarters when the astronauts called down and said, hey, we're seeing the UFO
out here. We're seeing something we don't know, and they kind of covered it up, and he was an engineering He's like, what's with that? The astronauts said they saw UFO and I'm like, I don't worry about it. And that's when he became really concerned that we need to know because he was working on safety for the astronauts, so he's thinking, well, I would like to know so we can protect the astronauts or build systems to be able to protect themselves. So he's a NASA person who got involved. So
they definitely know more than there. Let certainly makes sense that the people who have been to space would know more about what's in space. Yeah, so I definitely think they know what they don't want us to know. Yeah, they know that. We know that. They know that. They say they don't know, they know, but they do know that will all be changing soon, hopefully when these commercial planes and companies going to go into space and
start taking people into space space tourism. Because it's interesting how many NASA videos there are where there's anomalous things buying around, right, and they just do not comment at all. They just don't comment. Here's another story, and it's an interesting article that was published in Seattle Weekly last week. And when I saw the title of this headline, I kind of left. I was completely not shocked. The headline read, Peter Devenport leaves the UFOs. Can
you believe it? Peter Davenport believes in the UFO. I know. It was earth shattering. Wow, I might jaw drop to the floor. We're being sarcastic because we know who he is. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who knows who Peter Davenport is. He runs the National UFO Reporting Center, which operates a twenty four hour UFOs siding hotline. Since nineteen ninety four, Davenport has led the one man operation, which he funds entirely himself
the Seattle Weekly article. It's quite substantial and includes lots of pictures too. They had the article on their website and we had the link to it on openmindes dot tv. So check it out. It's kind of fun and I love the pictures any pictures related to Peter because they always show where he lives.
He listened to this old missile bunker missile playalo place. Well, often they don't show those pictures too, And so that's what I loved about the Seattle Weekly story is that they showed a lot of pictures, more pictures of the bunker. Yeah, than I've ever seen before. You kind of think it's knowing how to is keep it warm down there. But it looks pretty cool. It makes me want to go live in it. Oh, it looks really cool. We need to move our office into a missile base totally.
That'd be awesome. But it's funny because in the article there are quotes where he's leading these people around who are doing the story and taking pictures, and he says something like, oh, you've got to be careful, there are probably wolves out here. Really wow, our boss is probably listening. That'sthing he could look into is getting a missile silo. I think you definitely need a missile silos as your home base. Yeah, live from our missile
silo Open Minds Radio. Yeah, I think it would cause a lot of envy. Yeah, that'd be cool. There was a video that recently emerged and it was shot on New Year's Day actually, and the video was allegedly shot by two medical professionals from a plane where they were observing the Nasco lines in Peru near the foothills of the Andes. Late in the video, there's a dark mass that briefly emerges from the clouds, and some were speculating that
the object was a UFO. It was on a crash course with the plane and then zooms away and the video does the you know, slows the video down and zooms in and does still frame analysis. But really there's not much you can tell from this video. It's just kind of a slightly darker mass in the clouds. The story really hyped it up like it was going to be something great, and then you watch the video and you see a little darkness in the clouds for a second, and it's kind of a letdown.
So maybe it was a lot more exciting. What they visually saw in the plane, but the video yeah, was not that impressive. Yeah, the video it certainly hypes itself up. Is the greatest proof of footage or UFO footage of twenty eleven. And there's still kind of a nice story though, because they talked about the NASCA lines. Yeah. Yeah, that part of
it was fascinating. Yeah. In some interesting news for this week, Jeff Peckman, the man behind the recent push to create an Extraterrestrial Affairs Commission in Denver, Colorado, has thrown his hat into the Denver mayoral race. I've heard about that and we wish him luck. The election is May eleventh, so he's got to push ahead of him. Yeah. Really interesting he's done that. You know. One of the things that they make fun of him
about was he tried to get it. Well, he did get this initiative on the ballot a few years ago where he wanted the city officials to have programs where they did some stress release type of things. I don't think that's such a bad idea really. I think that you know, if they did allow people or provide people some space maybe just like a half hour to go to a relaxation room and sit down and for a while. You know, he talks about meditation things like that. It would probably help you know how
people get so stress out. Absolutely, and big companies have figured that out. I mean you look at Google. They exercise these techniques. They've got their playrooms, they've got pool tables, they've got everything, because they know that people get stressed. You need to unwind a little bit and you're going to be a more productive worker. Japan they do that a lot, I know. But I mean, so it wasn't even though people make fun of him, wasn't that bad of an idea. And so he's definitely kind of
an out and he's no doubt an out of the box. Think are quite far out of the box. But he's also a really nice guy. I think people like him. I mean you can hear it in the tone of the stories. They don't really the ones that know him, especially the locals and stuff, don't make a whole lot of fun of him. They just kind of tell the story and you know, tongue in cheek a little bit here and there. But he's a very likable fella. I think we're allowed
to make a little fun of him. If you've seen his rep video. Yeah, that's uh. That was not complimentary, that's for sure. It was amusing. I was entertained. Yeah, the Jeff Beckman rap. Well, I will definitely keep everyone posted with any news on Jeff Packman's push there for the mayor of Denver, Colorado. And that is it for the news for today, my friend. For more on these stories and any other UFO related news, check out openminds dot tv. That is your source for UFO
related news. I'm Jason McClellan, your Open Minds News correspondent, and you've been briefed back to you, sir Alejandro. Thank you, Jason. And there's another Jason in a chat who was asking about something and I think we didn't quite mention, which was McKinnon asking about an update on McKinnon. Not really an update date to his case unfortunately, but funny enough. David Gilmour of Pink Voyd, who we've talked about being a supporter of Gary McKinnon it
has paid his metal bills for him, So that was really nice. I mean, I'm sure McKinnon like that. I think we talked about with Ross Hemlsworth or something. I was talking about someone about that lately. What his medical bills must be like. So that was really nice, and that's the
latest we have. So interesting enough, even though this deadline has passed where they're supposed to decide whether or not they're going to extradite him, they have not figured that out yet, so I think they're really stalling on that. It ought to be interesting to see what happens there. So we also a
couple of the stories we have. We do have a story. I wrote something on Jeff Peckman to give you a little bit more information about his bid to run for mayor and some of his campaign and his platform, because actually, when you go to his website where he talks about running for office, there's only the word UFO twice on there because mostly he's focusing on many other
things such as job creation, medical marijuana. Interesting enough, but he brings up the point is that in that you know all the different things we can make with him products and making sure to have a safe environment for those people. I'm looking into these issues that cause people pain and trying to reise all these issues and looking out of the box for different healing methods and modalities and helping these people out. So he's got some interesting stuff to say so and
I'll bet you he'll get a lot of airtime. The Huffington Post already posted his story on it. That's the first major media outside of Denver that's covered it as far as I know, and I'm sure he's going to get a lot of coverage on that. Some other stories that we wrote this week were
by about Costa Rica. Two stories that Antonio Hunans contributed to our website, and it's in two parts because he did the Costa Rica ufo dosie I like that word, but essentially talking about a lot of UFO sightings and UFO history in Costa Rica and including a very famous sighting in Coote Lake. And this was an image taken by aerial photography of a disc shape over a lake and not a lot of people know about this one, although it is fairly famous.
The Kameta Report, which was a French UFO report, had put this ufo on their cover that made it pretty famous, and a lot of important investigators, scientific and careful investigators looked into this and they found it to be something that was legit. So he wrote all about that, which is great, and in fact we put up a picture. Not only that, we put up the entire frame, which is the first time I've even seen it
personally of the sighting. So you can go look at this entire aerial photograph and see where the UFO is with maps and get to look at some of that. You got to see Antonio when he's young, out there being cool, investigating and he was investigating actually with doctor Richard Haynes, who used to work for NASA. So that's a really fun story too, some of the Open Minds exclusive stories that we have up on the website that we update on a regular basis as well. However, it is time for our guest of
honor this evening, and that is mister Ben Hanson. Are you there, Ben? I am. How are you guys doing tonight? Good? How are you good? And Happy Valentine's Day? Yep, Happy Valentine's Day. We're here. Luckily, the only one of us that has espoused is Jason, so he's the only one that's going to be in trouble when he gets own. But I even forgot that with today. Yeah, but we don't have any obligations to do theirself. Oh yeah, good, you're not going
to get in trouble. Nope. Well cool, You've got a very popular show which is going well on the sci Fi Channel, The Fact or Fake, and that seems to be doing pretty well. Huh yeah, it does. We set some type of record if it was the first first half of last season. You know, we we've been getting about consistently a million, a little bit more million viewers. It's now and I don't know how many countries. I don't I didn't know this before when we started up the show,
that sci Fi is so connected globally. I mean, you've got every country has their own version of the Sci Fi Channel. Uh huh. So we learned that, you know, our show is in Germany and they're dubbing over our voices in German. So it's just about every month I get new countries and new people. You know, they're watching the first episodes and commenting on things. So it's a lot of fun. How cool do you do you get to see some of those shows where you see yourself and you're being
dubbed. I've wanted to I need to get ahold of someone over there in the Netherlands or something, because I want to see if it's the same person doing your voice. Yeah, switched up the episode ah right, Yeah, because the voice or something representing you or maybe one person who just tries to make different sounding voices. Yeah, it's it's kind of kind of funny.
I mean, because they I guess that's why they do these shows, you know, instead of doing the subtitles that because a lot of them involved you know, night investigations, and the whole emotion of I guess hearing the people get excited in their own languages. It's something that's don't want to mess right exactly. So how does it feel getting out to that many people? You
know, it's something I never really imagined. It's been such an adventure, it really has because you probably know I came from a completely different background. I was in law enforcement, private public agencies, you know, doing other things as far as research and analysis as well, and and to get into the whole entertainment world is very different. And it's not been ever an ambition of mine. It was just an opportunity that came open. And the passion
for Paranoma always has been. But you know, I tell people it's the strangest thing because when I was in high school, I thought, you know, my my favorite show is kind of cliche. But My favorite was The X Files, and I thought, how could I get a job investigating and doing that and and have the paranormal and all you know at once and am doing that? Yeah, exactly, and with the entertainment factor, so you're actually getting it out to the public, getting it out to people right,
right. And you know, I think that's the great thing about it is because you know, when when we first I'm not on the production side of things, but I helped kind of develop the concept of the show, and uh, you know, it was really kind of disappointed, because you apology has always been my main interest. And you know, when you had UFO Hunters that went off the air, You've got ancient aliens I think still going.
But but uh and every now and then a documentary, but unsolved mysteries all those that really dealt with the subject disappeared, right, And so it was kind of my you know, contribution to bring back a lot of UFO cases. So I think by bringing the subject up and getting it out there, you know, in it's in its way, is very valuable to the field. Yeah. And what I've found, and I don't know if you all think this is true too, is that even though some of this stuff
has been covered before, and we go through this in the magazine. First of all, we haven't done our p our kind of spin our are done it our way. And the other thing is that even though it's been done before, because there are so many new people coming into this and having having an interest, that a lot of these new people don't know about these historic cases. So it's news to them when you cover those things exactly. You
know, we do. We do have kind of a niche in our format that it was kind of well, it's kind of turned out to be a hybrid of of MythBusters and and uh, you know ghost hunters UFO hunters, and so that niche also requires us to adhere to kind of a format, and so with experimentation and things, Yes, we are looking at some cases
that some people have researched. But you know, as you know, it's also the ufology filled is it's very sticky sometimes because there is no standardized an accepted authority really as to what credentials someone has to have the process that's involved.
And so any historical case you look at, you you probably could find as many people saying and presenting their points for something as you can against it, right, you know, So when we get in there and you know, and you figure in the time that we have to present something in half an hour, it's like it's kind of like the a chef. I mean, you're taking all the information you have to give everyone background on the history, then present what we're doing there, our experiments, and then sum it
up. So you're dicing and cutting it and serving it to people to let them decide, right. Right. So I want to get into before we get into more of the show and the details about the show, kind of what you were talking about earlier, how in high school you were into the X Files and how your interests in UFOs kind of was that your inspiration for getting into investigations? But what got you into UFOs? Did you have a sighting when you were younger or what was the stuff that you were seeing that
really got you into the subject. Well, as I thought back, I think the first time I was introduced to it was I believe I was eight or ten years old. I'm thirty three now, so someone can do the math. I don't remember what ET came out, but sometime around then, and I remember watching that and being fascinated by the possibility of life on other
planets and wanted to know more about it. Well. By the time I was about twelve, my dad was bringing me books like Communions and Project Blue Book, and you know it kind of heavy reading for someone at that age, and I kind of me I was probably involved in sports, but I had my little side obvious. I didn't want anyone to know about kind of hide my books from my friends, like what do you read about UFOs?
And anyways. It also kind of scared me. I mean I would put these books away after a while because it was such a i mean a mind blowing subject that there was a period there where I really didn't do much with it until I was about fourteen and I started hearing about Area fifty one, the articles and popular mechanics. And my dad was kind of like my buddy through all this, and I realized later on he was feeding me, you
know, these books and things is because we share there's common interest. Now I did have you know, it has only been in the past probably ten years. My grandfather who he passed away of prostate cancer which spread and he is a war veteran, and at any rate, we found out I found out during the years of probably about nineteen sixty four and through the late sixties to sixty nine or so, and then a little bit in seventeen eighties. He was a civil engineer at Ry Patterson and I grew up in Utah,
so he worked primarily at Hill Air Force Base up there. His specialty, I get the he was the maintenance operator and in a designer of underground hangar systems. Wow. So yeah, And and I finally, you know, and when I started getting into this with my dad and and we were, you know, later years when my grandfather was getting really sick, my dad started kind of prodding him to see if if he knew anything, because this was a big subject on all the TV shows and right and you know,
I don't. I would not how much time we have to get into it all. But but little by little, his way of letting my dad know that he was on the right track was just kind of saying nothing and listening to him, kind of giving him a little nods and saying, yes, that's interesting. Until one day he was watching TV and Philip Corso for those listeners who don't know, Philip Courso is you know a colonel who served in at the Pentagon and and very high levels of involvement in the foreign technology and
research and development of the army. And he claims to have taken his back engineered material and dispersed it back into the private industries. And that's where we get all of our you know, microchips, lasers and a bunch of things. And so anyways, Grandpa's watching the TV and he says, oh, Philip, he called him phil I've seen him forever. Oh wow. And my dad says, you know this guy and he says, well, yeah, yeah, we we knew each other, right, Patterson. Well,
as time went on, my dad started asking him about things. When he was fifteen years old, my grandmother at one point got really sick and they almost lost her. So at fifteen years old, my dad is kind of the kind of the household. Because Grandpa would take these trips on TDY temporary duty out to write Patterson. And he told my dad one day, he said, you know, there may come a time where I need to leave
right away and just go. And I can't explain why, but I'm part of a group that is involved in something that if there's an emergency in the country, I have to go. And I can't tell you when I was back, and my dad said that you remember specifically in nineteen sixty five, the first time that he left quickly like that was early December. And this, I mean, we're my dad and I really into researching this. This just barely happened today. I got this new infect Wow. He left,
took him to the airport, got on a plane. He was hoping he'd be back in about twenty days. He got back right before Christmas. Now this is pure speculation, but my dad was going through trying to find out what major events happened in nineteen sixty five and around that time, and he found the Textsburgh, Pennsylvania UFO crash happened December tenth, And it's been speculated
that there's been witnesses that said that debris went to Wright Patterson. What kind of group he was, you know, may have been a part of, if he had anything to do with it, I have no idea, but you know, it's kind of fun. So the long answer to your question is we we followed, you know, kind of grandpa until the end where you know, he was in the hospital bed and he kept his oath. But he did tell my my father that we're not alone, and he was
referring to you know, life on another world. Wow. So that kind of you know, initiated the fire. I did have in my own UFO experience in the Bahamas where I saw an object that was doing things that satellites shouldn't do, you know, But I guess, yeah, that's well, that's very good. I mean. And your grandpa you said he worked on underground hangar systems. Yes, his job was in the in the late sixties.
From what I understand, they you know, the Cold War era, the Russians, you know, in the US played this kind of shell game, so nobody, you know, either side didn't want the other to know how many aircraft they had where they were distributed. So the planes that you can see from the satellites overhead are only only represent you know, what they wanted the Russians to see, right, But what happened was when they take him into the hangars, they would go down several layers and they would move
them around and keep them out of sight. So the Russians really didn't know how many planes we had anywhere. The grapple job was to maintain to what we gather. He was a tinker, I mean, a civil engineer. He just he probably really helped develop these systems and make sure that you know, they were working order. That's pretty cool because of course kind of the same systems are used on aircraft carriers. But as far as I know,
really underground hangars isn't something that's acknowledged. I don't know if any base that says, yeah, we have some underground hangars. Of course, everybody suspects that there are at Area fifty one, but that really isn't a knowledged yet still, so that's in itself a very secret, secretive type of thing he's working on, especially at right Patterson. Oh exactly. You know, my dad remembers calling him when he was there and telling him that my grandmother was
sick. And he very rarely called when he went out there, only a couple of times while he was there for weeks, and he remembers trying to get a hold of him, telling him that my you know, grandma was in the hospital, and he was so frustrating because the operator there I guess, you know, they'd patched him through to whatever buildings and and you know, my dad might I kind of tease him about his memory, but he claimed that he asked for my grandpa, who was working in building eighteen.
I don't know if he's been watching kind of too many of these shows that associated building hand gar eighteen was something else. But anyway, they said, well which building. There's eighteen A, there's eighteen B, there's eighteen C. You know, so it who knows? But but my grandpa didn't tell him. Well, he was very frustrated because my dad had a conversation when he came home later and he said, he left me here with mom and she was in the hospital. I couldn't even get a hold of you.
And my grandpa got pretty stern with him and looked him in the eye and he said I wasn't available. And my dad said, how could you not be available? There's phones everywhere and he said not. Everywhere I was working was above ground. M wow. So gab have a friend, a funny enough who worked at rat Wright Patterson and he uh, it was while I worked at a data center and he was a cabling guy and he was out.
He said they were really far away from the base too, working on some data cables and the guy he was with cut the wrong cable and he's like, oh, I think I cut the wrong cable and he's like, oh great, let me take a look. He crawls down in the hole and he said it was that quick. You know, they heard some alarms
and stuff. They're like, oh, I wonder what's going on. And you know, within like a few seconds, this this hole there and it's surrounded by guys with guns and they're like, what the hell you guys doing? It was because the security is so tight and who knows what line they cut. But yeah, right, Patterson, it's a real deal. I mean, that's that's a very secretive base. You probably know about Curtis LeMay and the comments he made with Barry Goldwater. I believe what he tried to
go and visit was that wrong. Yeah, where Goldwater said, hey, take me to that blue room where you got the aliens and stuff and let me was his friend told him, hey, uh, don't ever talk about that again, and got really upset with him, right right, Yeah, So, I mean this is kind of a side project. I've talked with Tom Kerry recently and some of the others who are in the Roswell stuff, and we're looking at trying to create some type of a collective database on Ray
Patterson. Now, it's astounding how many of these veterans that are dying so quickly. It's like a thousand veterans a day or something like that, that you know, we're losing our history. And to find them and to get their statements down and and everything is a monumental task. One Tom Carry and Don Schmidt are two people who have done an incredible job doing that with the Roswell incident. Yes they have and great guys too. One thing I wish
they could change about the field is just kind of the cattiness. Though not with them, not from them, but there's so much great research going on, it's just hard to kind of get everyone to sit down at the same table. Yeah, you know, I kind of that with Tom and get everyone to share information. It's kind of it reminded me of when I was working for the FBI and you know after nine to eleven, you know, everything was revamped because the agencies wouldn't share information. Yeah, you know,
so kind of the same problem we have in this field. Yeah, definitely.
It's one of those things that's nice. That's why I like the events like the Congress, and it's going to be great because you're going to be there, but that you get a lot of these people together and they they have a chance, you know, they're kind of forced in a way to kind of talk, and a lot of stuff happens from these people getting together and talking and being together for a few days, which kind of helps that out when and I think over time, it seems like it used to be
a lot worse than it is now. What's good, it's that it's getting better. Yeah, but it is unfortunate. I know exactly what you mean about the communication, because that's something that we try to keep open. Well. I think it might also have something to do with the fact that in order to survive in this field and actually do it full time, you kind of have to bring things out exclusively, you know, books, yeah,
documentaries and things, and so people hold on to it very privately. I mean we I think we all want the same goal, but it's it's that very few people I think can make a living out of it, right, Yeah, And if the goal is the truth, you know, that's I like the people and there are a lot of them who are more cooperative and everything, but I know exactly what you mean. It's unfortunate. So that's kind of funny though, getting back to Right Patterson and Blue Book, because
Blue Book was headquartered at of Wright Patterson. But on the other side, the other book you're reading was Communion, which is kind of funny because when I've heard of people at first, you know, hearing about how they would get scared reading about Blue Book and stuff, and I wonder why, And then when you ask them, it's because they've also read or seen something about
abductions. So when you bring them really credible stuff which really starts to push their belief towards believing that we're being visited, it makes it extra scary because it means that some of these other situations, such as Communion possibly could be really happening too. Of course, Communion being one of the first big abduction books exactly, I think it's a very very interesting subject. But it's kind of like I always am constantly trying to go through this in my mind because
I fit kind of on the fence. You know, I have a very open mind, but where I, you know, ninety percent believe something to
maybe ten or twenty percent. It's kind of like before I had my experience in seeing an object over the Caribbean, I very well thought it was conceivable, but after I saw it, then I said, well, now I can't really easily discount anybody's story as far as it goes, you know, seeing objects, and then you know, with abduction stories, I thought, okay, well, maybe they just came, they had visited, Maybe that's it. Maybe we haven't actually had you know, a third kind contact or
anything. But then I talked with you know, somebody who's become a great friend of mine, Travis Walton, you know, from from Firing the Sky, And this guy is so believable. And I think I'm a pretty good judge of deception and you know, picking up on cues and asking the right questions, and you know, I believe this guy had an actual experience, and so so I think somebody who's new to the subject kind of approaches it probably like I did, in degrees, and until you maybe have your own
confirmation, you might think it's possible. But but everyone, you know, kind of like, Okay, I believe this, but I won't believe that. It is very interesting how that works. Yeah, I was the same way when I joined move On to investigate. I was very skeptical of abductions until I started meeting these people and having an open mind and listening, and then you know, I found some extraordinary things such as that a lot of these people really do have lots of UFO sightings, more than most people.
And I had a couple of sightings with some of these people. So you know, like you say, then how do you disregard everything else? And Travis Walton there is another one. Like you said, that's what's great. And you know, hopefully people can come to the Congress. If you haven't met Travis Walton, he's definitely someone you want to meet because, like you said, he is so down to earth, regular guy. When I met
him, he was still just kind of coming out to talk well. I mean, he had talked a lot, then he became a recluse and didn't want to talk about it, And when I met him, he had just it was like one of the first talks he had done in a really long time, and he was still kind of like, I don't like talking about it. People ask me all these questions. I don't want to remember what happened, and they're asking me, did this happen? Did that happen? And I don't know what happened to me? All I can say is what
I remember, and so that even is more genuine. You can tell this guy isn't looking for spotlight and he's not looking to make assumptions about what happened to him. He doesn't know exactly who these things were that he experienced, but exactly I think that says a lot, because you know he only from
fact. You read his book. It differs greatly from the movie and the abduction part, and he himself only uses the word aliens even and things like that, because it's the moments, you know, creature or culture that that people understand, and so he you know, actually, letsie when it was November, we went back and he hadn't been to the site in over four years, and through a friend of mine, I met him, and he took us up on the offer and took us to the exact location where it
happened. And through the whole time I was observing everything about him and he it's only kind of something you can see, like you're saying, like face to face, because if he's relatively shy, he's not someone who wants to draw attention to himself. He doesn't fit the typical abductee. He's very uh, I don't know, it's kind of hard to put your finger on you know what I'm talking about. But he he only became a celebrity and came
out because his story was international. By the time he came back right after being gone, this story was already out there. Otherwise I don't think he would have ever talked to anyone about it. Right. Yeah, he was on I don't know if you saw it, but he was on NBC Today's Show on Saturday. They did a piece. Yeah, it's online, you can go google it, and they did a great job. It was it was really good. Oh cool. Yeah, it's good that he's back out
there. And you know, we've been talking about different ways that we can although find this guy, got the subject out. I would love to see, you know, like like he would a documentary or something really kind of just based on the facts and exactly because what happened to him were real, what he remembers happening to him, Well, he was taken by whatever these
things were. It's much more interesting, I mean, to imagine the implications of what he experienced and if that's real, I mean, that's much more important than the entertainment piece that they put together in the movie. Well, definitely, definitely, And you know, and he's also very understanding to how
it was treated in the movie. And I just love his book because he's he's a very articulate academic in taking a look at all sides, and he understands, if nothing else to get the story out, you kind of have to put it in that vehicle of Hollywood and you know, make it creepy and scary and everything and the stories out there. But now he's just trying
to set the record straight. Yep. Yeah, he said very like you said, Yeah, he's understanding of what happened and and that it didn't have anything to do with the director Tracy Torment had to do with the producers, right right. I think I think, uh, yeah, Tom was the writer and the director. I forget who the director was, but I think,
yeah, he probably maybe out of credit in that as well. And you know, but as it goes through the different revisions of the writers and they keep adding things and changing things, you know, it's neat to see his transition and no process and just coming to accept that, you know, this is based on a true story and and the really important thing is just letting people know that something happened. Mm hm, you know, so I wanted to ask you then. Uh, It's kind of funny how you talked
about you were a fan of the X Files. You know, you were into this stuff, like we've talked about, you know, with your grandfather, and obviously it was a part of your life growing up, so you really wanted to be Fox Molder investigating this kind of paranormal stuff when you were in the FBI and working for UTAH. Did you ever kind of ask around where you're like, Hey, is there really can I do in the X Files or something? You know? Did you probably rough? You can imagine
there's things I can't talk about. Most of it I can't talk about. I did. I was curious though. Definitely. It's funny that you know they're in the Behavior of Science units. They have pictures of the staff and you know that they're in the Academy and they have one little picture where they have an alien face. It's kind of I gets a little joke to them because I think that's where Mulder was supposed to come from, with the Behavior
of Science Science Unit or something. And yeah, I probably heard more outside so of of the dealings and involvement there from other people than I than I did on the inside. So h yeah, it's I think, you know, if if anyone wants to know about any of that stuff, there's there's lots of documents you know that that the agency and themselves is released on the website through the Foyer and one of the big biles go ahead, sorry, oh, I was just going to say, Hoover and his interest in it
as well is right, well know yep. And then one of the big FBI files you can find investigating the pair of normal is into cattle mutilations, right, and definitely that's no secret that they were you know, the seventies did a formal investigations. Yeah, yeah, which was really interesting, and I know you guys did an episode on that and I've only seen parts of it, but my buddy Checksukowski was in it with you guys, showing some of the recent cases in Colorado. Uh huh, she was, and I
wasn't on that case with them, Okay, I don't know. I heard. He's just an amazing, great guy to work with. I think we even consulted with Linda Moulton Howe, who eventually didn't have I think anything in the show with her. We didn't interview her or anything, but we talked to her because you know, Chuck and Linda and that's that's there, you know, a whole area of expertise. The particular case though, and like I said, sometimes these things get whittled down because of time particular case.
I think in summary we could say though that particular one was interesting because it didn't seem to fit the I guess normal profile for you know, mutilation cases didn't have the tail signs, and we were showing different ways that I believe. In that one, they took kind of a leather bladder which they filled with air and showed that these you know, gases that are trapped after animal
dies can explode a cavity and create similar tears. But you know, we always get a lot of feedback from different people, and some people were thinking that we were in simulating that all cases explained that way, and which is not. So it was just in that particular case we didn't even have a you know, a carcass to deal with because Chuck had been there in the farm or the rancher that he came back out I don't know how long after, and it was gone. It was completely gone. Yeah, I know
that not the strange. Yeah, well, I know he has worked on a lot of cases, and I personally got to investigate at least one of those cases, and you know, reader's reports and everything on the other cases, and so I'm not sure exactly which one they were talking about, because yeah, and so that was kind of curious because in most of the other cases there were some where everything was gone, like all the organs and all that was left was like a spine and then and of course like in other
cases, there there were anal cavity removed, sexual organs, utters and a tongue and stuff like that. So uh huh, so big. Yeah. We were in the UK at the same time. We were doing a story on the Beast of Dartmoor and we were looking for a story with mutilated sheet that's happening in uh I believe it's Northern whales. You know. It actually
videoed some lights, you know, leaving the area and yoah. The fact that no one has ever been arrested or let aflone arrested, but that's not convicted, you know, for animal mutilations like this, and just so baffling. Mm hmm. What sort of lights did you see leaving the area. We didn't video this. This was a video that we were looking at that there's a group. I don't remember the gentleman's name that it was. It's
kind of a I believe it was a circular light. There were sheep found in the area the next day, but there's a circular light, and I believe there was some type of a bean that was coming out in the bottom of it, and you know, it just didn't come together, you know, soon enough for us to get there. And I'd love to be able to get to one of these cases where we can actually be able to carcass.
Yeah. It's kind of kind of hard though, when you know you've got approval and you know, working in entertainment and getting a story all set up, the location and everything like that, you know, it takes a little bit of time, right, Yeah, And that's what's hard with cattle mutilations and why you know, a real netcropsy done in the time I should be done, it's never really happened because sometimes in ranchers don't find them till a couple of days later. So to be able to get to it in
an air two is very difficult. Now, in the Arizona In case you do your first episode, we had Jeff Willis on actually a couple weeks ago, where we talked with him a bit about that, and your guys went out and videotaped what they feel is as a UFO video. Now, you weren't with them that night. I was not. Unfortunately, I would have loved to be at that one because I always wanted to go out. You know. I feel bad because Bill, Larry, all those who are on
that case or either out of the country. Larry's on a honeymoon right now. So I was trying to get a hold of them, trying to get some specific information. But no, I wasn't with them. But I do know more or less what happened. It went out and you know, interviewed Jeff, they conducted their experiments. At this point. They were they were feeling like, if you want to do to hoax this video, you know you you probably could have done it there, you know, with without much
trouble. But that's the case with a lot of different videos. It doesn't mean that it was. They didn't find anything significant at all that would have indicated that Jeff was being accepted though, and so they did a night investigation, and our producer actually owns the production company, was out there. O. This guy is a big skeptic, and I'm trying to get him into the UFO. He ah, he just will, We'll shoot you down kind of right and left because he just doesn't really I guess to even have that
that open mind together. But anyways, while they were on the ground looking one of the theories of courses for you guys out there in Arizona, what's the first thing people say? Flares? Right right, military players June flights were flares everyone, that's official response. Well, they were out there with
metal detectors. They were out there with infrat cameras and things trying to look around the ground in the very area where you know, Jeff had been filming, to see if, by chance, there was any sort of debris, you know, the the chemicals that they looked for when I can't remember off the top of my head, tronconium or something that the flares are made of. When all of a sudden, they captured on one of the infrared cameras this object that was pretty far distant, but it was traveling at such a
rate that you know, Larry called out to the others. Our producer was there. They you know, the footage that you see in the show came from the locked off infrared camera. Now this isn't it's not a thermal imager. We do use those now for locked off shots. But this was just your standard infra red camera. And I'm trying to picture it in my head. I believe it traveled from right to left and then you see what you
don't see is off frame. It made this one eighty almost and came back the offosite direction extremely fast, and they were all just blown away with it. I mean, if it didn't resemble or behave in the way of the delight that Jeff was. But it made no sound it. You know, all the probably there hadn't been at least ten crew, you know, plus our team that was out there, that no one had ever seen anything like this before. No one could explain it. So what did the skeptical producers
say about that? Well, I think he gave an interview afterwards and even talks about I don't know what it was. I know that it wasn't a plane, you know, but I don't know. We're kind of winning him over a little bit. Was he on the show. Then you mean on the show like the producer. Yeah, on camera at all, No, no, no, yeah, because everybody was really excited they had on camera
that was that was kind of neat. Yeah, it is. And when you were able to do something like that, it's like, whether we're investigating a ghost case or UFO, it's just icing on me, you know, because it is difficult to under time restraints and things to be out somewhere and to hope that you're going to capture something on film. Have you what investigations have you been on that you've that have kind of floored you? Well, the ones that I've been on kind of deal with. The ones that I
have seen things I can't explain are probably the ghost cases. I more and more we're doing historic UFO things. We're going back, you know, several years now. Kind of a little plug for what's coming up on March twenty
third. Our first case involves the Battle of la and I really wanted to see this one, you know, go longer, and we might do that in the future and have you know, our long shows, because this is just so you know, historic nineteen forty and it's really interesting some of it that we uncovered some of the I guess without giving away too much the possibilities, I guess I should say that I never considered what I had looked into this case before. Gotcha, that's pretty cool. It's a big case.
Of course, just in time or at least when it comes out, I guess it'll be, or just in time possibly for the movie Battle La. Yeah. We didn't even know that the movie was coming out, oh really until yeah, until we had started the research and production on this episode. So it's paired up with a case of the Queen Mary in Long Beach.
There is a ghost video, and then we have the historic photograph nineteen forty two that we're looking into and we've we've talked to It was kind of my kind of project that I just one of those I want to see this one done. I met with Scott Littleton, you know, one of the eyewitnesses who recently passed away. Actually early in the year, I met with him and got his first hand account when he was I believe eight years old, and what he saw, and we were going to use him as one of
the witnesses. And we called up as his wife called his home and his wife answered and said that he just passed away. It's hard to find eyewitnesses, right, you know, to that story anymore. But it's action packed. I don't want to get in trouble, like I said, for giving stuff away, but let me just say this. We attend to shoot some artillery into the air. Oh wow, it was a lot of fun.
Cool. Yeah, that would be That's a hard part though, with trying to do kind of the ghost hunter thing with UFOs, you can't really do that. I mean, you guys got extremely lucky out in the Arizona Desert to get something, but it's so far and few between, and typically historical cases, any that you may take, even the Battle of Los Angeles, that same event is not repeated exactly. The events are always different. So you can't go to LA and hang out and wait for something to fly over
and artillery and start shooting at it. There are some great hot spots, as you know, around the country, but most of the people were there investigating them. I'm very protective. I mean, you've got Bigelow and skin walk around and right it had Phillipson in Morley Woods, and yeah, people don't want to give up locations. They don't want to access and I really don't blame them. I mean, yeah, we get a lot of trespassers. Yeah, and but you're right, if you want consistent phenomena that appears,
it's difficult to find with UFOs. Yeah. Well, you know what, the first place I had my sighting was Hooper, Colorado and the sam really at the UFO Watchtower, and she would definitely love to have you guys there. Oh wow, that might be a good quest. Yeah, UFO Watch Shower and Hooper, Colorado and the San Luis Valley, and there's a lot of sightings out there, a lot of them. That's the one that they referred to as Witch Mountains as well as No, it's outside of Crestone,
Colorado. I've never heard of anybody referred to it as which mountain. But there is Blanca Peak there where people feel that the sightings are sort of centered around. Okay, yeah, beautiful area. You'll have to check that out. And she's definitely likes to have people coming out. She's very open, which, like you said, can be not the norm. Well, I do want to hear though about some of the ghost cases that have really blown you away and some of what you've seen there. Okay, my probably
the one I always talk about. The one that just blew my mind was I was in Indiana and we're investigating the video that someone claimed that they were having experiences in their home. The wife said that the husband was sitting at the breakfast and down comes the stairs this man dressed in a full Civil War costu or outfit, and she waved to him and then went out walked out
the door. And so they've been seeing this ghost in their house. And they tracked down who lived there before them and found that he was buried in the cemetery really close by. So they went there and they were reviewing the video of their kind of ghost times they did that night with this paranormal group, and they see this light that comes zipping by them really fast. Now
we called it a ghost train. They think it looked like a night watchman with a lantern, but it went so fast it was the strangest thing. They didn't see it with their eyes, only when they played it back. So we were out there in the cemetery and I got this ceiling that it was a very still night. It's kind of those creepy, almost Hollywood type, you know, the old rusty gate Civil War tombstones everywhere, and it
was in the middle of this kind of grove of forest. And when I was in between filming, going back to grab something to eat or whatever, I would hear leaves wrestling. Like every step that I took, I would hear something about five feet away, and you know, I would look down on the ground and wait, and then it would stop and take another step and again it was almost like a circle five feet away from me. I got my flashlight and I honestly saw a pile of leaves in front with no
wind. Saw the whole pile of the press in the shape of the footprint. Wow. I ran and I got my director, brought him back and I said, you have to see this. And as we tried it and took a step, I saw individual leaves moving as if someone picked them up with their fingers and scooted them across the ground or flip them over. Looked like one leaf like got picked up and turned over and sat back down. Oh yeah, yeah. We we both ran out of the cool and then
and we actually captured one of the events on tape. Now, I always tell people that there were there was only one thing that I did see, some type of a centerpiece that moved one of the leaves, and we also caught that on tape. But you know, as I explained to people, the way that I was seeing these leaves move, I don't think it is you know, possible at all. But the place was just insestive with insects and removing all these leaves, because I would have seen more than just that
one. So anyways, it's interesting how these ghost cases too kind of blend over into you know, the UFO and induction cases, and it's so hard, in fact, without saying which case investigated. I was as recently, you know, back East, and it was so hard to tell whether we're dealing with a poultergeist or we're dealing with an actual abduction or some type of interdimensional beings. You know, I'm pretty convinced that this family was experiencing something
real. But you know, I think in the paranormal field, people tend to put themselves in different categories like cryptozoology and bigfoot. They want to be over here and be dealing with living, breathing animals. They don't want to be blended with UFOs, right, But there's a lot of evidence coming out that it's possible you know that bigfoot sightings do have something to do with UFOs, So I don't know, it's kind of fun to see all sides of
it. Yeah, it's interesting looking back in the files, you know, and exactly what you're talking about where. And I think it was David Perkins one of the people who was the first to kind of say, hey, we got to quit leaving stuff out because the bigfoot people were leaving out. When when the people said, oh, I saw this creature and then that
night I also saw a bright light flash by or vice versa. The guys would go out and take a UFO report and then omit it when they said, yeah, and I think I saw this upright, you know, Harry Beast walking through the forest also where you know, starting to say, hey, you know, we need to be sure that we're including on either side
every weirdness that happens during these investigations, uh huh. Especially it's the difficult, difficult thing because you know, we all have to work to try to get past our agenda, you know, and whether we're trying to prove or debunk something, to try to get to that neutral place and to have our mind open to all the possibilities. Mm hmm. Is there something that really as being part of the show, some sort of phenomena that you're more open
to than you were prior to working on the show or vice versa. Yeah. Yeah, I was really afraid, I guess to admit that I had any belief and kind of an interdimensional type thing. And I still don't know where I stand on it until you know, I maybe actually see something for myself. But if I think about it, I have a strong belief in the afterlife, and I have a strong belief that the life on the planet.
So this idea that that some you know, I guess entities or spirits can pass in between and using some type of you know, dimension that they all travel or something that really, you know, kind of bothered me. But some of these cryptic cases, I think it's kind of opened my eyes. And some of the abduction cases that are kind of in the middle between poltergeist and abduction, you know, there's something going on something there that is
really interesting. I think our technology is just starting to catch up to be able to actually document some of this. That's exciting. Yeah, and you know, I agree that you know, if you're going to keep an open mind. You really got to keep an open mind to any of these possibilities, which is uh, it's been great Jacques Barret, who is one of the first researchers to talk about, you know, the interdimensionality site possibly being a part of all of this, and he got some heck for that.
But now that he's been a little more active and written his recent book about historical situations that could fit in that court of category as well, you can't you know, you can't uh discount that possibility. No, you can't, you can't. And then you have the other extremes, which you know,
considering actually trying to maybe write a book on my thoughts about this. But the other dream is believing everything that happens and everything you see, and without applying a scientific process, basically, you know, it cancels it out. If you believe in in everything, then really you believe in nothing, you
know, so it can't all very then. Believe me, I spend a lot of time thinking about this when I'm traveling on the plane, and oh, I know what you mean, because I feel that way too, that people who believe in everything you know, I like to ask, well, how can you believe it in these things that are contradictory. You know. Of course, even in this field, a lot of this stuff is really dogmatic. There's the people who believe this is what's going on with the UFOs
and ets and that's it. And there's another group that feels that they have the answer, which is totally different than these guys, and some people who believe everybody, including both of these groups. And it's like, well, how can you believe it's all of these things at once. You've got to have at least some discernment. Well, then you have. That's why the detractors, you know, of the field are. You know, they bash on for not applying science and that science can never be used to study this
because you know, it is elusive. But we have to try. I mean, if it's ever going to be accepted as a legitimate field, you know, studied universities and accepted, then you have to do your very best to try. Yeah. Yeah, it's you know, I know we don't have much time either, but I spend a lot of a lot of my contemplating thinking about technology because you know, this kind of what the whole show
is about. Really, we are able in our day and time to have at our fingertips, cell phones, and nearly every cell phone has a camera fan quarters, you know, every everywhere we go. Now, I think this increase in UFO sidings might have a lot to do with the facts that
we just have the technology to capture. The technology can be our greatest friend and our worst enemy, because if you look at YouTube or online and see all of these videos, I mean, we're look at the samest case we have now in Jerusalem, right, you know, these life people have become so desensitized to seeing, you know, alien movies or hoax videos that people
have made, which are so easy to make. Yeah, you can get into after effects and do something you erase the exit file and then claim that the original videos gone right, you know, and so the person's left thinking, well what now? They're so easy to make that there's this disconnect, I think because I've always maintained, well what's up who here pretty much at a time. Sorry about that, Yeah, but I know what you're talking
about because we talked about that same thing very often. So it's going to be a lot of fun to see you at the UFO Congress next week. You'll be there to talk to people and kind of sign autographs and things for a couple of days. I will if filming schedules as is, I will be there from Wednesday probably Saturday. Awesome. We it'll be fun to see you there and we'll get a talk some more because it's kind of fun getting into these investigations. You know, you kind of have the same ideas and
everything. So we're really excited to meet you. And thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Talk to you later, all right, that was a lot of fun to have been on the show. Next week we're going to have Stan Romanek who's also going to be at the Congress, and we're going to try to bring him on on the video too, so you'll have to check that out. But anyway, thank you for being here. To listen to Open Minds Radio
your UFO news. Be sure to talk or check out Open Minds to that TV for the latest in UFO info, and we will talk to you next week. Audio is smooth tachos to to to Pat Totu, so he's a did that and that will