Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 72. We are the Nelsons. I'm Shaun. And I'm Lanette. And today we are super excited to bring another episode that's an interview with an adoptee who grew up with an open adoption. So today we're going to be talking to Devanie. And Devanie is wonderful and I love how we were able to connect with her. I have a friend who I was talking to here in our hometown where we live. And she and I were talking
about open adoption. And then she was like, you know, I've never like made this connection before, but I have a friend who grew up with an open adoption. And she's like a mom now and has this really rounded perspective where she grew up with that open adoption. She's a parent now and it's this big thing. And she was like, and she was in the news because open adoption was so rare when she was
little anyway. So I was super excited that we were able to connect. So this conversation is in our kitchen and the microphone is a lot closer to Devanie. So I'm just going to apologize right now. The audio is not perfect, but it was really neat to have a face to face conversation in person about this. And so again, the audio is not perfect, but the conversation, oh, it was amazing for me. So enjoyable. I loved talking to Devanie.
Yeah. And editing this episode, listening to this conversation was really enjoyable for me and we hope it will be for you too. And we'll recap some of our thoughts at the end. So we'll jump to our interview with Devanie. So we are here on the podcast with Devanie. Am I saying that right? Yeah. Okay, good. Devanie, we're so excited to have you here. To start off, can we have you just share about yourself? Yes, for sure. As far as like hobbies go, I am kind of a family history nerd. I
love it. I love researching family history, finding records, reading old newspapers. Like that's one of my big things I've just kind of like gotten into as a young, I guess, like 12 year old and then just kind of it's morphed into this whole new kind of obsession. I love it. I love it. Yes, I love family history. I actually have kind of like, I don't know if you call it a hobby, kind of, I actually help people find their birth parents. I'm using genetic
genealogy. So that's actually how I found my birth dad. So I love to be able to help people who don't know how to find their birth parents. Okay, here's the tricks of the trade with DNA. Here's some ways you can do it. Because sometimes you'll get a really easy, oh, here's your match and it's your parent, you know, it's your birth parent or it's your, you know, close match. But if you get if you don't get good matches, you can, it can take forever to find. So I love doing
that. I like to take my kids out in nature and soak up experiences. That's kind of about me as far as like my hobbies and stuff. All right. Well, you're here because you are an adoptee. Yes. And you work with an open adoption. Right. So can you share your adoption story, whatever you want to share? Totally, totally. So yeah, so we'll start from like the very, very beginning. Okay, so my parents could not have kids. My mom tried some fertility treatments,
like whatever they were doing in the 1970s, it didn't work out for her. She when she married my dad, because she was previously married. But when she married my dad, he's like, Oh, we don't need to worry about any of that. He's like, let's adopt. And she's like, Oh, my gosh, I'm so grateful that you want to adopt too, because she was kind of tired of doing all the fertility stuff. And I
think it just kind of Yeah, it was exhausting. And so I think it was refreshing to her that my dad did not have this like obsession with having to have like his kids being a genetic carbon copy of himself. So I think it's really cool that they were just like all in together. And like, as soon as they started the adoption process, they were both just gung ho about it, you know, he was all about it. So and I think that was that's really neat that he didn't
have this, this idea that he had to have like a genetic child, right. So they ended up adopting my sister Hillary, and then my sister Haley. And then through the LDS social services at that time, if you had two children in your home already, then they would, you know, kind of like you weren't really going to be on the list for looking for a child anymore. You know, you had they're like, Okay, you have two kids like, you're great. Let's let's give like, these
other children, families that don't have any kids, right. So, so my parents thought they were done and so grateful that they had these two kids. And when those were both, I would call one, I think my older sisters was private, but also closed. And because her birth mom did not want contact, but it was done through a private lawyer. And then my sister Haley, hers was a private adoption through LDS family services. So but hopefully I'm not wrong on that. Anyway,
yeah, oh, yes, I'm close. Yeah. So the, yeah, the first one was a private close. And the second one was LDS family services closed, because I don't think they did open adoption is like the year that my sister was born. Anyway, so then like, I don't know, my mom would be able to tell the exact date. But so they got they adopted Haley. And then like, I would say maybe like nine months later, my mom got a phone call from her brother in law who lived in Seattle. And or
maybe it was her sister, I don't know. But anyway, my mom's brother in law was a doctor. And he was doing his residency in Seattle. And I guess he wasn't a doctor yet for being specific. I don't know how it works. But he was doing his residency. And he, he had this woman come in and say, I mean, if I'm just summarizing my memory correctly, hey, I, I want I am pregnant. And I, I want to place the baby with a family. And I do not want the baby to just go off into
the distance and not know what happened to the baby. I know that you I think he was doing like an OB GYN rotation, or he was just, he delivered a lot of babies at that point. And she asked him if he had any patients who, who he knew of that couldn't have babies that wanted to adopt. And he, he told her, you know, I he's like, I don't think I can legally tell you that. So he's like, but if you happen to find a list of names on the way out the door, there might be a there
might be a list. I don't know. Like he was just trying to be like really careful. So he had made a list of people that he knew might be interested. And on her way out, she grabbed the list and she contacted people. And so the doctor, he called my mom, hey, because they were you know, that was his sister in law. Hey, just heads up. I just gave her name to this woman who is trying to trying to place her baby and interested in placing a baby for adoption. And so heads up, you
might be contacted and my parents like, Oh, that's wonderful. Wow. You know, we thought we'd be open to that. So my, my birth mom, that was my birth mom. My birth mom contacted the people on the list. And this is back in the day. So she just wrote them a letter and then the families wrote letters in response. And so I still have the letter that my dad wrote. My dad was like all in he was
gangbusters about it. He installed typed up on like an old typewriter. And he included pictures of like my of them with their kids, you know, my sisters. Anyway, my my birth mom was immediately attracted to the fact that there were already two kids in the home. And that fact that they were also adopted. And she loved the idea of me having siblings and especially sisters. And she liked that our family had a faith background. And she wanted me to be raised in some sort
of like religion. She wasn't raised in a religion, but she had some friends she really respected that were LDS faith. And so she liked that my family was LDS or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so she was attracted to the home life that she knew I would probably have. And then, yeah, so I think from then on, they exchanged maybe a couple more letters, and then they started doing
phone calls. And they decided, you know, let's do this, we want to do this. And she, you know, double check with them, Hey, I really want to know, like, you know, I know my baby's gonna go to you and be part of your family. How do you feel about keeping this like open contact and doing like the adoption to a private lawyer? And they were like, Oh, we have a friend who would do it here in Orange County. Like, so they were, yeah, that'd be great. So, so, yeah, they kind of just
said because they had had good experiences with her on the phone. They're like, Yeah, let's do this. And I also know that my mom has said the reason why they felt so good about it was because they already had two children. And, you know, that were adopted. And my mom said, you know, if you are first, it might have been hard for us to imagine doing an open adoption. Because, you know, when you're a new mom, and you're adopting a baby, you might have some insecurities,
unknown terrain. But my mom was just like, you know, we already had these two girls. We felt confident as parents, we knew that it's love that makes a family. It's not your DNA. So by the time your birth mom, you know, we talked about this, we felt comfortable. And they knew that my birth mom was like a healthy, mentally healthy person who wasn't going to be intrusive in our lives. And so they just Yeah, they drafted up some sort of, I guess, legal thing and maybe
adoption. Well, not finalized. Yeah, obviously. But she, my mom's gonna listen to this and just make you have some of these things wrong. Anyway, as far as I know, yeah, she was like, Okay, well, I would like you guys to be part of the birth. If you guys want to come to Seattle, if you want to come, then I want you there if you want to be there. And this was like, crazy, because back then no one was doing open adoptions really. And was there even a term for open
adoption? Do you know? I think there might have been because of a story that happened nine months after I was born. And I'll tell you that part. But I'm not sure. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know that term. But open adoption is a quiet term. But I heard it. My family heard it for sure nine months later, nine months after I was born. But anyway, so my dad, his parents happened to be living in Seattle at the time, which is just crazy. So my parents
flew in around my due date, and stayed with my dad's parents. And then when Carla was going into labor, they they headed over to the hospital. So yeah, and it was a long labor. So they had plenty of time to get there. And then my mom told my mom, my birth mom told my mom, I want you to hold her first. So my mom got to hold me first. Yeah. And I have some really cool pictures of just like
the people that were there. And my mom holding me and I also have a picture of my birth mom looking at me like, you could just see hope and like, content ness in my birth mom's face. Like, it wasn't this like somber, sad moment, at least in the picture, she could tell that I was going to a good family. And she was very happy about her choice. I mean, that's just because of who she was,
where she had been in her life. She just felt very good about my family. And anyway, you can just see in the picture, like, she has a smile of contentedness. And there's a warmth radiating from her. I just it's really beautiful for me to see that moment. You know, but it was it was very difficult. She you know, my birth mom's told me later, it was very difficult for her mom, my grandma Fran, I was the first granddaughter and she had offered, you know, hey, let's let's take
we'll take care of the baby. And my birth mom's sister, my aunt Kathy, she even offered like, hey, maybe we'll adopt her because they had a son, like a couple years before I was born. And Carla just had this conviction, like, no, I feel so good about this family. And I really want I really want this for my
baby. And anyway, so it was just kind of really neat to see her resolve. And yeah, just like kind of know that for me, I felt like it was a very guided resolved decision that she felt very, like led to, you know, so anyway, yeah, so that's kind of like, the very beginning. So my parents, I think they, they adopt official adoption day, I mean, they were there at the moment I was born. And then after all this, I think everything was fine. All of us all they they stayed at my
grandparents house in Seattle. And then we flew back to Orange County, where my parents were living at the time. I was like two weeks old. And I got like the first first flight certificate, I still have it. I was in my file. My mom always kept to my files. Cute. Amazing. And so you grew up with Carla in your life? Yes, I grew up with my birth mom Carla in my life. So yeah, that'll take me to that spot. I want to tell you about that word open adoption. So when I was about
nine months old, my family had or maybe I was 10 months old. Yeah, is my mom told me that when when I was about 10 months old, our family moved from Irvine to San Luis Obispo, California. And so just like a few mile or a few hours up the coast. And somehow, I don't know, I have to ask, but somehow someone at Como News in Seattle, Washington, like it's like one of their big news companies up there, someone found out about us. And I don't know, I have to ask how it all
happened. But they were doing a special on Como News about open adoption. And like I have the video of the special that they did. They flew my birth mom down to San Luis Obispo to see me for the first time after I was born. And so you know, she's, yeah, she's she's just come down from Seattle. And like, this woman comes on like the screen and says, it was the news anchor or whatever, she says, what I'm about to tell you may be shocking. It's just really interesting.
But like, I don't sure if I get the wording quite quite correct. But it might be shocking. But there's a new a new form of adoption that is called open adoption. And here's how four families are coping with this with this new adoption thing. I don't know, like exactly. And so we were one of like the four people that they like interviewed and stuff. I just think it's funny that this is maybe shocking. Because like, by the time I watched that clip, I was like,
I don't know, probably five or something. I saw that I'm like, shocking. What do you mean? Doesn't everyone have a birth mom? I'm really confused. Like, I just so Carla came down and they did this cute story of just like, you know, explaining like, oh, Carla's in contact. And, you know, and the family is letting her come visit and, and she gets to hold her baby and she gets updates, you know,
for birthdays. And so my parents, they kept it just like friendly and cordial with her and just, and my birth mom, I think she naturally is kind of a private person. And so I feel like she didn't want an excess of communication. She didn't want to insert herself. She just wanted to make sure I was happy. And she want I think she probably just wanted to know that she made a good choice. And I think it felt good for her to get the updates and to like have open
communication. So we from what I remember, like I still have these like little envelopes, like we would exchange photographs, and there would be phone calls. I remember like on my birthday growing up, I'd always get a phone call from Carla on my birthday. I always get like a Christmas present and you know, just and then my my grandma Fran, Carla's mom, I remained very close to her throughout my whole my life and her whole life. So that was like a very
treasured relationship from having an open adoption. And just I always felt so comfortable and normal around Carla and talking to her and it just always made me feel so secure. Like, oh, yeah, like, yeah, my birth mom, she really one of the best for me. So I get this family and I have these sisters and like, doesn't everyone like I just didn't cross my mind that people I just thought that's how
families were, you know, I just felt so natural. Yeah. And like when I was when that like one of my first memories, I might have been like four, I don't know. Because you know, that doctor after the adoption was final, that doctor became my uncle, because the doctor's wife is my mom, Marilyn's sister. So like, that doctor, you know, and like, we would go visit my mom's sister and, you know, my uncle Adrian, we'd go visit them every once in a while in Seattle. And whenever
we'd go visit them, we'd also make a detour and go see Carla and Fran. And so I think I have this memory of visiting them when I was like three or four and meeting Carla's husband. And yeah, I don't I think she was she. So she had my birth mom had three kids after me. So yeah, anyway, but I just I had like some fun footage also on family video cameras and stuff of just visiting them and just I've always known my grandma. I've always known my aunt and my uncle, you know,
from my birth family. And it's just, it was just always kind of like, I felt I was special. I'm like, this is this is great. I get to visit my birth family. And the word birth family was a very normal word in my life. I think I remember like the first time learning about birth mom was like, I don't even remember it was like, I've always known that word. Yeah, so I always thought Annie was such an interesting story. I'm like, I'm like, Andy didn't know her birth mom. That's so
weird. And then what about your sisters who were also adopted? Was there ever any like tension or anything because they didn't know their birth mom? I don't think so. Like, there I don't think that even if there was like they never outright said like, well, it's no fair. You get to know who your birth mom is. And I think that they just maybe just kind of were onlookers. They liked the trip to Seattle. Like, I don't know, they just kind of like, oh, interesting. But my, my grandma friend
would always send gifts for my sisters. Like as well, like she would send gifts. Like when she sent me presents, like for Christmas, she would send my sister's presents. Yeah, just like she was just she made the kids feel like everyone had a like that grandma friend was kind of a little bit part of them too. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, not like not just like, I mean, they wouldn't like have that same like visit or whatever. But they, you know, at least once a year, they got a
present from a friend as well. So yeah, that was and then when I was about 12, right before like I was 12, my grandma friend asked my mom, Hey, would you ever be willing to let Devanie come up here and visit for a little bit during the summer? And my parents were like, Yeah, that's fantastic. Like we you know, if she wants to do it, she can totally come up. So I when I think when I was 12, my mom and I went to the San Jose airport or something. And then, you know, my mom
like, I think she could walk me to like the gate at that time. And like, you know, right when I get on like the the airplane, so I got on the airplane. And then when I got to Seattle, my birth mom was at the airport, like right at the gate to pick me up. So my first like solo flight was I think I was 12 to go to my grandma Fran. So I stayed with my grandma Fran for like, I don't know, maybe a week. And then Carla came down to visit us from Seattle because Fran
lived in Lacey, Washington by Olympia. And so Carla would come down and just like, because you know, she had, I think by then she had two kids. And then, yeah, so she had a job and two kids. And so she came down to visit, but I stayed with my grandma Fran. It was super fun. And then every summer after that I would visit. And then I would start going to Carla's house for part of the trip too. So I
would see my siblings, my half siblings. Yeah, yeah. So and I just had a lot of laughs getting to know my cousins that were right in Lacey as well, getting to know my aunt. So it just, it always just made me feel like I just had like, I just, I felt like I belonged there too. But every time I was going home back to California, I'm like, Oh, I'm so excited to go home to my to be with my family. Like, I always had, I had such a great time with them. But I always had this
like, feeling of, okay, I'm so glad, like I got this time with them. And I am so excited to go home. Like, it was just like this really good balance of enjoying my time, but knowing where home actually was, you know, but I always felt I was like I belonged in both places. So yeah, it was like a really good feeling of like belonging, you know, and feeling like I had more people to love that loved me. Yeah, I feel like that's a common thread that I hear from adoptees that they
don't feel like they belong with either of their families. And so I love that you were able to feel that you belong in both. Oh, totally. Yeah, it's almost felt like when you go, I guess when you see it in a movie, like someone lands on an island and then like, you know, the people on the island are like, you are an honored guest. Like, you know, like I just felt like an honored like an honored guest whenever, whenever I would go. My birth
family always made me feel very special. Like they were very excited to spend time with me. And, you know, we always had some good meaningful conversations. And yeah, my grandma from was like the best conversation when she's from the south. And it was a delight. It was always a delight to talk with her and just get soak up all her stories and stuff. And my grandpa. Yeah, it was really, really special for sure. How cool. Yeah. Alright, so with your unique experience for your adoption was
always open. Do you feel like you had maybe a contrasting experience from other adopters your age or your sisters? Um, I don't I mean, I'm sure I'm absolutely sure I had a different experience. I'm sure that well, we you know, you just kind of know everyone processes their adoption differently mentally. I think me knowing I was
adopted from the beginning. We all knew from the very beginning, my parents were very open about the fact that they adopted every like all of us like, they never tried to keep that secrets from the kids or they were always willing to talk about it. But yeah, I think that I think looking back, I'm and after talking with other adoptees, I know that knowing my birth family has made a difference for me with maybe my maybe like my confidence of my core person.
Like I feel like a lot of adoptees might not have so much confidence in like this core person that they are. But that's me speaking like not from the like I don't I'm not I don't know what they feel exactly. But my observation is for on like my end of it is I always had a very strong sense of confidence of who my core person was. Because there was no mystery. And I mean, I, it's obviously not my my siblings fault that they didn't know who their birth parents
were. But I think it did help me just kind of like, yeah, I'll just bounce off to Seattle and bounce back and you know what I mean? And then, oh, I can't forget to say this is really a huge part of our story as well. When I was about four years old, I believe, my family felt very impressed to adopt a young woman who was 12, who was in a foster home. And so we adopted my sister McKay, I think we started maybe maybe the process which is just over maybe 13. Anyway, I don't
remember life without her. So she's always been my sister in my brain because I hardly have any memories before that. But she has this whole other story too. And hers was from being placed in her first family, her birth mom. She was placed in her first family as a like, I think a brand new newborn. And then her family. Her first I call it her first family. So there's birth family, then her first family and then us. Her first family when she was I think 12, they
gave her up for adoption. And I can't even imagine the absolute like, like, just shock and like, what that does to your inner core, you know what I mean? But that's obviously it's not my story to tell at all. But it's a huge part of our family story that my parents were like, she, she belongs with us, like, they felt
very strongly that she belongs belonged with our family. And so I think with the it got through that my parents have gone through these different experiences with you know, they're the first two sisters than me and then McCann ended up being the oldest, you know, so she's adopted the last but she's the oldest of all of us. And so that my parents just have a lot of experience with adoption and the different types of like what that looks like. And yeah, like how it affects
people how people's story affects them in their adoption. So my sister McKay, like her, her story, she I'm sure she processes her story quite differently than I do, because she had a first family that that ended up giving her up for adoption. I don't even know if that's even legal anymore. I don't think you could do that. I don't understand. I don't know. Yeah, so they ended up having
biological children after her like, like a lot. So I don't think I think they didn't know they could have kids maybe and then they so they adopted her and then all of a sudden they have like five kids and I don't know, I really don't know their story. But um, but yeah, so I think she, you know, she had two layers of being placed. Yeah, and I'm sure that she processed that very differently. So
it all I think it all boils down to how you process your experiences. And I was fortunate enough to be able to know about my situation from a very early age and to have like a lot of support around it. And I think my parent, my sisters would also agree that they had a lot of support about being adopted. And like it wasn't this mystery, like, yeah, you're adopted. And we love you. And we chose you. We wanted to, you know, but yeah, we all have different stories. Like, yeah,
like I could just go on and on and on for days. But I'll, I'll let you ask me some more questions. It'll probably prompt. Yeah, some more things. So interesting. Yeah. So how do you feel like your experiences with the openness might have led you to where you are today? It definitely, like I said, like I felt always felt confident as an adopted person. It made me really excited to find my birth dad, because I had such a good
experience with my birth mom. And I was like, yeah, this is normal. This is like, that it's not a big deal. Like, but it's extremely important to me, I want to know who my birth dad is, you know, and I think that gave me confidence to go out and look and feel, feel like I could go like I could answer this huge question inside of me. I could move forward with confidence because this because of this open exchange. And also like something my mom always says, as she's on this been
on this journey with me, my mom, Marilyn, people is wait, which mom? But yeah, so she always says, you know, love is not territorial. And she learned that early on, my mom learned that early on, because her mom passed away when she was 13. And her dad remarried a widow who had six children. And so her her stepmom was just a very loving, embracing woman. And, and it, you know, my mom had four siblings, four siblings, and then so there were five of them, the Stone family,
and then there were six jolly kids. And so when the parents got married, they were the jolly stones. I know, right. But like, there was no question, like they were a family there. And I think it was in the 50s, I believe when they late 50s, I think when they combined families. And so my mom, she was like, yeah, love is not territorial. Like, her siblings who she identifies as her siblings, not step siblings, she's never called them steps, ever. I've never heard her say my
step brother or my step sister. I've never once heard my mom say my stepmom, it's always my mom, Jean, you know. So it's really interesting. I think my mom had this perspective of, like love has no territories. Because of the way that her family was blended when she was a young teenager. And so when she's adopting, my
mom's adopting her daughters, she's like, it's more people to love. And the fact that my birth family was involved, my mom's like, oh, well, there's more people that love my daughter that care about her well being that like, want to have a healthy relationship with her. Fantastic. Like she just, my mom always made me feel like, yeah, and as I was discovering my birth dad, and, and my all my new siblings I have, my mom just always says, isn't it, isn't it just so great? There's
just more people to love. I don't like, so yeah, my mom had a huge part in framing my attitude about open adoption and like what people being a part of your family actually means, you know. My mom's a rock star, absolute rock star. So yeah. So you did find your birth dad. Yes. Oh my gosh, such a saga. Do you want me to go into it now or later? I would love to hear it. Okay, so crazy. So when I was, I was
probably 14. Oh, actually let's email it. I'll go back. When I was 12, or right before I turned 12, my birth mom sent me for, I think it was Christmas because I have a January birthday. So I think it was either Christmas or my birthday, my 12th birthday. My birth mom sends me an old photograph of one of our ancestors and on the back is a family tree. And that was my first exposure to, I mean, my first like cognitive exposure to family history and the very dawning of my
obsession. It was just like, I saw this picture of this woman from Ireland, this beautiful young woman. She's like 22. She, it's a black and white photo and I think it was taken in like the 1870s. And on the back it says something like, photo of of Anna Colgan taken right before she got on the ship to come to America. And she came all by herself. And then it had this family tree. And at the, you know, at the very bottom it had Carla's name, like, you know, trickled down, like it
trickled down from like Anna Mary Colgan. And, you know, she's my ancestor from Ireland and who came to America. And then, you know, it shows everyone else in between. Then it trickles down to me and like right above me is my birth mom's name, Carla. And then right next to her name is this other name. She broke down my birth dad's name. I was like, what? Like in my brain I had never thought of a birth dad. I don't know what. I just, what? So that kind of blew my mind. And so I
called her. I'm like, will you tell, like, actually you know what? I don't want to like see the wrong time frame. But I don't think I called her or asked her about it really. I don't even think I, I wasn't registering it. I don't know. That's so weird. I'm about to think about it. But she, I called her and I was like, maybe when I got it or like a couple years later, I'm like, will you tell me more about, I'll just say David because the name on it was David. And anyway, so I
was like, will you tell me more about David? And so yeah, she told me a little bit about it. He was a student at University of Washington and you know, like said something like, we met when we were playing pool or something. And you know, she just like, she told me what she remembered. And yeah, it's probably, I think I was about 14 when I asked her the stuff. So I'd had the family tree for like a couple years. But yeah, so I just started asking her about it. She gave me
some information. But like it was from what I remember, like he, I think he might have known that she was pregnant, but like said something like, you know, I can't, I can't do this. I'm, you know, I, I'm a student, dah, dah, dah, dah. Like, I don't know exactly how the conversation went down, but she just decided like, I'm taking her this on my own, you know? So I think that, I don't know, he didn't even know what happened to me. You know, that was kind of, that was like the story that
I was told. And so when I was about like 20s, I'd always like, this is before Google, like I was like, how can I find this guy? Because she didn't know where he went. I just had a lot of curiosity. I didn't need a new dad. I had a lot of curiosity about my birth dad. I just want him to like, okay, I want to know more about him. Like I really have this love for family history and genealogy that's just like, I want to know all the things. So finally like Googles invented and I'm
like, or I think it was like Ask Jeeves, if you remember the Ask Jeeves engine. I was like searching his name and every little detail she told me about him. And I kept running into roadblocks, but finally in my early, like when I was like 25, I finally must have searched the right thing and I found him. And I knew I found him because it was everything she had told me details wise. And it was all in
this like bio about this man in California. He was now in California. So I'm married at the time now and my husband and I like go and see Mama Mia. Like I think I was having a bad day. He's like, I know you want to see Mama Mia. Let's go see Mama Mia. And it was all about this girl finding her birth dad. Right. I'm like, well, so I finally write this man, David, this letter and I say, hey, here's about me. Here's a little bit about my story. I love my family.
I don't need a replacement family. I just want to let you know, like, hey, I'm here. If you ever want to meet, let me know. If you ever want any communication, here's my parents address. They can always forward it to me wherever I am. So I didn't hear anything back for like years. I know I always send a Christmas card, like just like the one you send to everybody on your list. Nothing like personal on it. And for years, and then finally in like 2015, I just, I saw this Ancestry DNA
commercial and something inside of me just like burst. And it was just like, you need to do this. And I was like, okay, yeah, I haven't heard from him. I'll just take the DNA test so I can learn about my ancestors. Maybe if I find DNA matches, I can just find out about our family history. Right. So I take the DNA test and I don't know if you know much about genetic genealogy or just like ancestry DNA or whatever. But when you get your matches, you can, a lot of people
who do it through ancestry, they like family history. So you'll see their family trees that they have posted. So I started looking through my matches, family trees, and none of their ancestors had the last name of the man that she had told me was my birth dad. And I was like, this is really odd. Like, and then something just didn't feel like it was adding up. And I, so I started like YouTube, like YouTube video tutorials without like, I don't know, like,
how to find, you know, your birth parent using your DNA matches. And so I was just like, looking through all these trees, kind of force that name to be correct, trying to force find, I guess, I'm like, I've got to find that last name. And isn't someone's family tree and all my matches anyway, my friend who's adopted, she's like, Dev, you just have to let go of like the stories. Not that they were lies, but that like, it was a long time ago. And, you know, the story, it might
actually be a different story than you originally told. She's like, you need to let go of the story, you need to let go of the name David, and you need to let the DNA do the talking. So long, like long story short, because it took me a long time to figure out how to do genetic genealogy. I finally learned how to do it. And I was led to this one, like, I was using my fourth cousin matches, I was, yeah, fourth cousin matches, really far back, I, I learned all these DNA
hacks. And like, I found the common ancestor of four of my fourth cousin matches. His man's name is Melvin Simpson from the 1800s. And I researched his descendants until I, like using all these DNA hacks, landed on this family. And well, the thing is, when I got my results back, like, if you see me, like, I am very obviously like a white woman, like I, you know, if in this DNA, do you get she's a white woman, right? Like Irish, Swedish, like, English, German,
like I had all my DNA came back. And then my DNA also says Native American on it. And it was like, 4%. And I was like, well, that's not just a smidge. Like, I mean, to people that don't know about DNA, that's just a spec, but it's actually not a spec. That means you have a full blood relative who, within the last 200 years. So it's a big part of your story. So Melvin Simpson had a lot of descendants, you can imagine, like, you know, it just exponentially gets bigger down the
family tree. So I was like, how am I going to find the right family? I only have fourth cousin matches on this side. So someone's family tree posted a picture of a Native American woman. And I was like, oh my gosh. So I started looking into that. I started emailing the person with that tree. And that person was my match. And he's like, I'm like, yeah, I think I would share more DNA with you if I descended from this woman that you posted from. Did that woman have a sister or a
brother? And he's like, yep, she had one sister. So I looked into that woman, Maude. So Rose was his, where he was from. And then I looked at Maude and Maude's descendants. And then I started, I contacted someone with a family tree under Maude and I said, hey, I, here's my story. I was adopted. I was born in Seattle. The way that we're genetically related looks like it could very likely be closely related to you. And perhaps one of your close relatives is my birth
dad. And this woman, like, she emailed me back right away. She's like, oh my gosh, I have the chills. She's like, you know all about my ancestors. And she said, all three of my brothers were in Seattle in the 1980s. And I was like, three? Is this Mamma Mia? What? And I was like, no. She's like, let me contact them. And then they'll like me, like I will, or they will get in touch with you. So like a day later, two of her three brothers got emailed me. One said, I'd love to help you
with family tree. I like family history as well. Let me know if you have any questions. Here's what I have. And the other one said, hey, I think we should talk. Because I sent a picture of myself and my birth mom for her to send to them. And he's like, hey, I think we should talk. So anyway, long story short, he and I just had like email conversations for a while. And then he's like, you know, and he's like, I'd love to help you. I'd love to do a DNA test for you. He's like, I
think there's a strong chance that I'm your birth dad. And so he took the DNA test. And yeah, 100%. He's my birth father. And his name is not David. His name is Hans. And so I've been sending a Christmas letter to the wrong person for years. He never replied, but I did send him a letter to let him know. I'm hey, I'm really sorry. This is the story that I knew. And you're off the hook basically in like a nice way. But my real birth dad, Hans, he had not a clue I
existed, not one speck of knowledge. And he's the kind of person he's just so just be hard to he's like, man, if I had known you'd be you'd be a part of our you'd have been a part of our lives because you know, he got married and had five kids. He's like, you would have absolutely been part of our lives. You would have just had to come right on in. You know what I mean? So guy has him and his wife started dating like a month after my birth mom and him had met
at a party. So like there was no overlap or anything weird. Like it was just like he had not never found they had a fun night. And then like, I guess, from what he said, he wanted to take her out again. But she's like, I'm not really I'm not really dating right now, you know. And so it's just funny because yeah, she just she thought it was one guy and it was actually one. Yeah. And so so how long did it take from when you got your ancestry, my adults to when you got? Okay,
so I did my DNA test in 2015. And I had a huge learning curve of trying to figure out how to do this. And also I thought it was a different guy. So I was looking I was looking at the wrong trees literally for him. And then I found Hans and well, I contacted him the very end of 2016. It was like Thanksgiving. So it took like a full year. And then we met in March of 2017. So yeah, and it's just been incredible learning about his family, like trees and like my you know, my
family trees on his side. And that's something I absolutely would love to talk about too is like after some of your questions, I would love to talk about like how knowing my how knowing my birth parents family history has affected my life. I would love to talk about that now. Oh, perfect. I was like, it's a huge
part of I believe my confidence as an adoptee. When I was like four years old, my dad's business, no, not my dad's secretary invited our family to a Santa Lucia festival for Christmas, the Swedish Christmas festival or whatever. And my mom was like, Oh, yeah, like on your on your adoption records, your birth mom put down that you are part Swedish or Scandinavian, you know, and just like this is, this is something really special because this is what they
do in Sweden. There's a woman that brings out like lights and her name is Santa Lucia. And, you know, do you want to do this? And like they need to like little kids to kind of like be part of the production. And so like my mom was like, this is part of your this is part of your ancestry. My mom was like, it's on your file. See, look, it says this. And she's like, it's really I was like,
Oh, my gosh, so special. Wow, this is part of my ancestry. That was probably my first encounter with like with family history was that Santa Lucia thing when I was like four, there's a picture of me wearing like a red turtleneck and red tights and like being so proud of myself with like a tear like I was like a wreath
of candles above my head. I don't know. Anyway, so so as a matter of fact, this, I mean, I don't know how she I don't know how my birth mom knew because maybe maybe David had Swedish ancestry, but like little did my birth mom know that Hans had a ton of Swedish ancestry. So it's kind of like because she had put that the known birth dad had was Scandinavian ancestry. And it wasn't that guy, right. But it was Hans and Hans's grandpa was fresh off the boat from
Sweden in 1922. So so it was just kind of like really cool that ended up being true. So but yeah, like getting that getting that family tree when I was like 12 for my birth mom was amazing. Like, I just thought my aunt my aunt Vicki, my mom's like sister that her mom had kind of like wasn't even part of like the blended family of my mom's family, but like another person, my mom's mother, grandma Jean just brought into the fold. So we call her aunt Vicki. She loves
family history. And she's like, let's learn about this. So she sat down with me at family history libraries and explained how to search census records on microphones as before the internet. Like I just I just always loved it. And I just loved seeing the names and the places and like wondering what their stories were like. And just, I don't know, it just gave me a lot of like, oh yeah, like, I love my pioneer ancestors from my family that I know about. And mom was
always really good explaining stuff like that. But it was really neat to see my birth family's line, my birth mom's line and be like, oh, these guys were like some tough stock, they went through a lot. And, you know, they were in the Carolinas, they would they would work whatever cotton mill was hiring. So they would bounce back and forth between North and South Carolina, depending on which mill was hiring, because it was just like sporadic, I guess. So I just kind of I
loved learning about it. I loved knowing their names. It just and I loved that that picture of Anna Mary Colgan is still in my mantle of my ancestor who came from America all by herself when she was 22. Just because she just knew that there was a better life out there for her. I just it just gave me so much confidence. And then learning about my birth dad's family history is just has
just been absolutely fascinating. It's just I don't know, like it. It's like this puzzle piece that I didn't know was missing got filled in every time I learned about my ancestors. Like, it's just like, oh, yeah, like this makes so much sense. And, and then it's crazy, because a few years ago, I saw this study that had come out in New York City, they had done this. They started to study before 9-11, like before they knew obviously anything was happening about
what the effect on knowing your ancestors stories had on your life. And they were studying children ages 10 to 12. And they said they started to study and then all of a sudden, like 9-11 happened, there's just a massive trauma that the whole city is going through the whole country, right. And they kept the study going. And they found like with verifiable evidence that the kids that
knew their family history were much more resilient and much more happy. And like after going like after going through trauma, they were they were much more resilient and they were able to be really happy just knowing. Yeah, and it's a really I have the study. It's I could look it up in a second. But it's just fascinating because I feel like that really anchored me. It really gave me
like a strong sense of like just like resilience. I've just been like, oh yeah, like I'm not just this like like alien that just came down and landed on the space needle. My dad always joked about that actually. It's kind of funny. He's like, we picked up in Seattle the space needle. They dropped it down. My dad had like a very colorful, hilarious sense of humor. I'm like, oh dad, you know, he was and every birthday, my dad would tuck us in and say, let me tell you about the day
you like the day you were born. Or let me to my sisters, let me tell you about the day that that you came into our family. Like he would he loved telling us that. And I think those stories really helped us. But yeah, the ancestor thing that really carried me through like the awkward teen years of just being an awkward teenager, like whether or not I was adopted or not, like just I really noticed the difference. Like when I look back, I'm like, oh yeah, like just
knowing my ancestors names, where they came from, that was huge. And then like, as I've got a newspapers.com, not a plug, but why not? The newspapers.com like subscription is really fun to read their stories or just if you get if you're lucky enough and you find like a story on some ancestry site or whatever. But yeah, I think that's huge. I think knowing your ancestor stories is really big for an adopted person. Like even just knowing like when I was four, knowing that, oh,
my ancestors might have celebrated this Swedish Christmas custom. I just made me feel just a little bit special, you know. So I think that's huge, huge for kids is even knowing like small bits of family history for adoptees is really, really cool. That's beautiful. And so you say that you work also with helping people find their ancestors now. Yes, they're definitely their birth
families. Yeah, and I actually, I love helping them find their ancestors too because a lot of the times it's been like older people that like, you know, maybe people 50s plus that that never knew their birth parents. And now maybe their birth parents have passed on. But like, I love finding their birth parents for them. And if their parents have passed on, I love being able to share, well, hey, I found this about your ancestors. This is some really cool
stories. And so they they love that. Like, if they can't have that relationship with their birth parent or like get to know them, they can at least get to know how the family like came to America or just you know, anything how they strived through life's trials. So yeah, it's incredible. Yeah. So what advice would you give to potential birth and adoptive parents regarding your experience with open adoption and knowing about your roots? What advice would you give before
these parents are considering it? Yeah, I would say if it's a yeah, if it's appropriate to do an open adoption, have that I mean, have boundaries around it. I don't know what the boundaries were
as far as it like what what was in the legal document. But my parents, I think it was just kind of like, yeah, like, let's exchange like pictures and like let's do some phone calls throughout the years, you know, and that just grew into feeling like comfortable and like, yeah, sure, let's have her go up to see you for a few days in Seattle during the summer.
I would say, yeah, so if it's if it's appropriate for the like if the birth mother is mentally well enough and mentally mature, emotionally mature enough, then yeah, like it's it's a great opportunity if that's the case. And also, man, yeah, like I just think yeah, it's just a matter of yeah, keep keeping it just really normal. Like kids should know the word birth mom, like like they know the word aunt like wow, like I don't know, just like yeah, oh yeah
your birth mom sent this to you. And like as early as they can retain a word is when they should know the word birth mom. And I'm sure like now that's general practice. I'm sure most most open adoptions do that. How I don't know, I just like it was like when I was like in first grade, I remember like having a picture of my birth mom being like, oh that's so special, like and just like have a little picture like my mom wasn't like oh we're gonna hide those, that's not your real mom, you know.
My mom was like oh yeah, Carla sent this for you, here's a picture of where you can look at, you know. Just keeping it normal, keeping it part of like the regular dialogue and explaining it to the kids all in a way that they can understand. And then as they get older and ask questions, just answer the
questions. And then yeah, like I think the fact that Carla wrote down Scandinavian was her was my birth dad's ancestry, like you know, just me having that little morsel maybe felt just like a little bit like connected to something, you know. I think just giving bits of knowledge like that to kids early on is so helpful. And when they get, because kids, adoptees get curious, they get very curious. Every adoptee has like a fantasy of what life might have been like if they
had stayed with their birth family. I got to visually see that every year, every summer. And so I didn't have as much of like this fantasy in my head about wow like what would it have been like if I wasn't adopted. And I think that kids that have closed adoptions, their fantasy goes wild in their head. Like it can go anywhere and they can wonder like my life might be better if I wasn't adopted. But for me, I got to see what my life would have been like and it wasn't
that it was like bad or worse. It was just that I could see it. I'm like oh, these are good people that love me and I have a home and a family already that have good people to love me. And so I don't need it. I don't need to not be adopted. I am glad I'm adopted. I just think that that like any little bit of information helps a child so that they feel secure in the story that they have. Maybe you think so. So we've talked to a couple of other
adoptees who grew up with open adoptions. And we've heard sometimes it might be a challenge to grow up with this open adoption and then take over the relationship where you're managing the relationship with your bio family. Do you feel like that was really the case or do you feel like maybe you kind of took some ownership of your relationships with your birth family when you started going up to Seattle?
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, I think that I started kind of having my own control but just like ownership. Like oh yeah, I'm like bye guys. I'm going to Seattle. I'll see you in like a couple weeks because I would go see my birth family and then I'd go see my mom's sister, my aunt Marty and then the doctor who became my uncle. So I would kind of do like a Seattle tour and see family.
And yeah, I feel like because I had my own individual experience with them as a teenager, we kind of established our own thing and they always knew I was going to my home in a couple weeks. You know what I mean? So I feel like it wasn't hard for me to manage just because of the way that our relationships molded over time as a teenager. They got to see like yeah, Devaney's like
her own person. Like she's up here like being all independent making her own choices and I think just maybe it probably has a lot to do with like the emotional maturity of the parties involved but I feel like yeah, I feel like it was not hard for me specifically in my story too. After I was 18, just when I was in college and my grandma was like, would you like to come for Christmas sometime? My grandma Fran, I was like oh I'd love to come for Christmas. So I
think I was after my freshman year in college. I did Christmas with my grandma. You know and that was really special and it was just it was my choice and it was really fun. That's awesome. And you felt like that was fun. Like your adoptive family was in school with you. Oh yeah they were like I said my mom was just like oh that's great. My mom loves her, my Fran. You know yeah I guess I think my mom was very
confident in her. Like my mom was very confident that that she was my mom even though she didn't birth me. She was very confident in her relationship with me. So yeah I think that she had no problem with that at all. My mom's goal and she always tells me this. I wish she could meet me mom. She's like I wanted to raise independent daughters. I didn't want them to be like grasping at my apron strings on their way you know to college. Like my mom was she raised very independent girls.
She wanted us to be confident and independent and know how to make our way in the world. And that's just who she is and I think it probably has to do with the fact that she lost her mom at 13 and she just really my mom was the oldest daughter of all of this family that joined together the Jolly Stones. She took on a lot of responsibility at 13 and or actually I think she was 14 or 15
when I think she was 14 when the the families joined. But yeah she just took on a lot of responsibility and she just I think she she grew up really fast because of that and she just didn't want us to to be like hindered by like a crutching like um sense of like oh I can't do this without my family or my mom. Like she just wanted us to be independent and confident going into the world. So yeah I love that she does sound amazing.
She's fantastic. Yeah all right so in your experience do you feel like openness in your options affected any trauma or struggles? Um I think probably affected in a good way. If that could go that way yeah I just feel like um I under because of what I know about my birth mother and my birth father's family history um it totally makes sense that like they were in a place where they couldn't
um raise a baby. Actually my birth dad like if he had known about it I think he would have been like right on it and he would have been like yeah like I'll help you raise this baby for sure. But like my birth mom was not she was actually you know she was in a good place because she was um she had decided I'm gonna I'm gonna go to see she was you know
Griffin Lacey Washington, Olivia area. She's like I'm gonna go out into the world just like you know because they they have their own everyone has their own trauma right so she had her own family trauma from her her family you know like everyone does but she decided she wanted to just make her way and have this like safe world for herself in Seattle separate from her family. And um so me knowing her story um kind of like helps me to have grace with my own like
childhood traumas. When I was nine my parents got divorced actually. Um my you know my parents adopted me they got divorced when I was nine. Um and that was obviously very very difficult like it never crossed my mind well well they're divorced so I shouldn't have ever been adopted that never crossed my mind at all. Like I mean because I think people have asked me like oh my gosh that's so weird that you were adopted but that your parents got divorced isn't that kind of
defeat the whole point? And I'm like no like it's called having a strong mom who can take on anything she needs to take on. That was my mom. You know so um anyway so it's like yeah I feel like knowing my birth parents story and knowing what they went through and especially what my ancestors went through. I mean my birth dad's grandmother um isn't as fierce grew up on reservation you know and and so like I know all that story now. I'm like whoa
like what they went through is insane you know. And like my my birth dad was raised for quite a long time by his grandma who's Nez Pierce and so it's kind of cool like he has this like strength and resilience from her and what you know what she what she and her ancestors our ancestors went through and like it trickles down. I hope I'm answering the question correctly. It was just how like how being having an open adoption has
affected like any trauma. Yeah so yeah I just think that like I know especially like knowing my birth mom's um like family trials and traumas of her childhood that really like helps me with perspective. I'm like oh wow I've got it I've got it good. I've got it real good and you know my my birth mom's dad's ancestors they were all part of like the Oklahoma dust bowl. They were just like there's a picture of that. I don't know how there's even a
picture because they were so dirt poor. There's a picture of them in front of a tent like with there's like a dirt stir everywhere and I was like oh were they camping and and my grandma's like oh no they were dirt poor they lived in a tent like this is like they had to leave
Oklahoma they went to Texas. I'm like whoa like so that was a massive poverty and later massive like alcoholism from that poverty that trickled down through the generations um and you know affected a lot of people but just like just knowing that story helps me just like have so much compassion and understanding for how events like why events happened in her life and you know it just it kind of yeah the openness of it gave me
perspective on my trials. I'm like oh I can get through some really hard stuff because they all went through some really hard stuff. This just is how it is and it's how we it's how we what choices we make through the trials that that affect our outcomes. Yeah. So I'd say it had a big effect on the knowledge of being open adoption really helped me know that. Well that helped you know your strength.
Yeah yeah exactly. All right so just looking at the entire adoption community what do you think some of maybe the biggest challenges are and do you have any thoughts on actions you could do to help? Okay um let's see here so the challenges I think right now there are so many people that want to adopt them. I think I think it's really hard to find um like birth mothers who want to
place their babies. I mean that's I mean I don't know a lot about it right now um except for my husband and I we dealt with infertility and so we were starting to look into adoption and I had two leaves and both fell through and I was so heartbroken um and um then we had this like miracle fertility story but yeah like I just remember how um I was really overwhelmed by the legal process of like I'm like yo my husband was like on board let's adopt so like we were like okay
let's start to like figure out how we do this and so but then I guess as we were starting that I had two people come out of the woodwork and be like hey my best friend she is having a baby um she isn't ready to be a mom she would love to play with someone who understands adoption she knows her story da da da da would you be interested in like absolutely we would be and meanwhile we're doing fertility treatments because we were in the middle of that
and then um I'm like yeah here's my information da da da da and then like the birth mom I think she ended up keeping the baby which I know is which is fantastic if that's her choice and so that didn't go anywhere and then the other one was my sister's co-worker same thing like you know didn't mean to get pregnant but wanted to place the baby and so I was like oh that's so yeah I'd love to love to talk to you about it and then so we were kind of starting
to talk to my sister and she was kind of relaying some information and then we found out we were pregnant um but I just know from that tiny little like putting our toe in the water of like just beginning to look into adoption I know it can be so overwhelming like you know you're going to be doing all this legal stuff and it's like you've got this huge just like chasm of okay we want a baby and there's the opportunity for a baby but there's this
giant grand canyon in front of us and I think that's maybe from my tiny experience with that is like wow like it seems like it would be so overwhelming to try and begin the process and and to go through the whole process um and I feel like yeah I mean I don't really know now that like the the agency that I knew the most about LDS Family Services they don't do those adoptions anymore I know it's just hard for people to get connected with their babies I think
that's the that's the chasm that I know about but as far as um I would hope that birth moms and birth parents would know like um like yeah um it's wonderful like I'm so grateful I'm adopted I'm so grateful my birth mom when I was engaged and I was living in Seattle actually I did my internship in Seattle and um after I graduated I moved back there for uh because I loved my friends I made during my internship um I was I got engaged and my soon-to-be husband was in Idaho still
doing school but she just told me one day at lunch she's like she's like she's like I am so grateful I made that choice it's the best decision I ever made like she just loved seeing this future laid out for me and she just said I I feel like placing you with your family was the best choice I ever made and I'm like whoa like I'm so grateful she feels so good about it I'm so grateful that she has so much peace about it and just like made me feel like a million
bucks like that like the way my life has gone not like oh she has this money or did it there it just she's just so grateful that she sees that her choice that she made led to so many wonderful outcomes and opportunities for me you know because she can't affect what choices I make but she could she was the person who affected the opportunities that came my way um so I would say like from my birth mom's own mouth like placing me with my family you know be particular with who you place with
she felt really good about my family so be particular with the family you place with and trust your choice because you're giving your you're giving your child a lifetime of opportunity obviously you can't you can't make that that kid can't you can't force them to make certain choices but you gave them all those opportunities that are going to be in on their path well one thing that was um every once in a while kind of affected me just a little bit was
having like a cousin say well you're not our real cousin because you're adopted like that always really bugged me but they believe me they would get like a very firm talking to later because it you know I told you about that jolly stone family that my mom came from this blended family we were all cousins to each other and half of the people weren't actually related to each other because it was a step family that had joined and so like when one of those cousins from that
that family that blended family would say to me well well you're not you know you're not really our cousin because you're adopted I'm like well you're not really cousins with tyler because you guys are steps like our parents are step siblings it doesn't matter like it's just kind of funny like just I'm like you guys are ridiculous and so I always felt like they're my cousins because of the relationships we had and the memories and experiences we had
but yeah there there are two cousins in particular who I still love but I had to explain to them adoption doesn't mean that we're not cousins it just means that's the way we became cousins you know what I mean so I just say like but kids kids just have to learn that like because they're they're just like they're just growing up in this world they're just learning like oh yeah there we need kids need to know like there is a thing called adoption and the genetics are a thing so it's okay that
it's okay that we're not love related but like don't make that don't make that a deal like a big deal with kids I don't know but like I'm like most of my experiences and even with those specific cousins have been fantastic it's just a little random thing like that's not my defining like my defining experience that's made our relationship with them but it is a funny little thing that I remember being a kid and being like that's messed up like don't talk to me
like that like I'm your cousin so get used to it like um so uh yeah but like I think it's just the main over like arching theme that I've just always felt and especially my mom's expanded yeah love is not territorial the more people love the better the more people you love and care about the better the more people that love you and care about you the better um you can't have enough people to love you know and I think that was
a huge a huge part of our our story yeah I think that's all I've got to say for now but this has been so amazing and so fun like I said I could talk for a year about this incredible thank you so very much it was so valuable yeah thanks so much to Devonee for her willingness to share her story and to help us learn from her experience yes I loved talking to Devonee I loved her focus on genealogy and family history I loved how comfortable and
confident she was and relating to and identifying with both her adoptive family and her biological family and how she really felt like a part of both I just loved how there was so much trust between all of the parties and her adoption where both of her families trusted each other she was doing summertime visits with biological family and I just thought that was so neat such a cool story and such a great example of how we can have trust and openness and
in this situation I loved seeing how it helped this individual grow up with so much confidence in who she is yeah I really man there are so many things that she shared that I just really really enjoyed listening to I love her persistence and when seeking for her birth father going through ancestry DNA and finding you know fourth cousins and kind of doing some detective work I know that takes a lot of work and to lead to the right situation and the right place like a lot has to come together to
make that happen and it's awesome that she does that to help other people as well and we've I mean on the podcast we've talked to a lot of people that have been searching for family or have found family and and several of them have done so through DNA so I'm glad that she shared that experience and I really loved how she just talked about developing resilience by understanding your heritage and knowing the difficulties that you know generations and generations ago have
gone through and because they were able to overcome and prevail we can gain strength from that and so I just gained this new perspective of understanding the adoptees perspective and in knowing some of their family history or genealogical history and the strength that can come from knowing stories and accounts from those in your family tree yeah yeah understanding those who come before you and how that can help you better know yourself and your present yeah I think that's really
beautiful I really have enjoyed these last couple of episodes our discussion with Sarah last week and our discussion I guess it was two weeks ago and our discussion with Devaney and this episode I just felt so enriched and so informed in getting some more perspectives from these adults who grew up as adoptees right with these experiences with open adoption and I just feel like it was really eye-opening for me and really encouraging to persist and keep working on these open adoption
relationships that it's worth it and yeah just a really beautiful experience for me I hope that these episodes have been enriching for you too yeah I think we're maybe one last thought that I'll share before we wrap up she shared a little bit about her mom and how she has helped to support the the relationships that she had with others and for me as an adoptive father with four kids who have open relationships with their biological families it just helps me be
even more committed recommitted to making sure that I'm doing everything I can to provide the connection that they need with their birth families so again thank you so much to Devaney and for sharing your story with us and being with us we will be back in your feed in two weeks and until then thanks so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project