Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 102. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In this episode, Aliisha Gallagher, who is our communications director here at Open Adoption Project, will be interviewing Christelle from episode 88. This is a kind of a follow-up episode to an interview that Alicia did for us several months ago now, and we had a lot of just
follow-up questions for her and we're just curious about more aspects of her experience. So Alicia meets with Christelle in this episode and asks a lot of really kind of the tough questions about being an international transracial adoptee. So Christelle, it's so nice to have you back on the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me back. I'm excited. Yeah, we talked about a lot of great topics last year and there was just so much that we loved and wanted to follow up on because there
was just wasn't enough time to cover everything. So before our listeners who are meeting you for the first time, can you tell us a little bit about you, a little bit about your adoption story? Sure. Well, I'm Christelle Palick here. I am a coach and I specialize in supporting Black adult adoptees, helping them navigating their adoption story and their own identity. But I'm also a podcast host and a host of Black adoptees' identities and I interview
Black adoptees about their own experience of their own adoption story. On the side, when I have time, I'm also a multidisciplinary artist. So I do work around film, fashion and writing. So that's me currently who I am. My adoption story started in Madagascar where I was born. My mother was very sick. So she ended up going to hospital and she left me in the village in the Catholic missionary at the time. I am not very sure if that was a temporary
arrangement, but things got worse and my mother passed away in hospital. And the next thing I was put into an orphanage and then put for adoption in France at the age of 10. So into a white family. So I'm a transracial adoptee. So trying to navigate all different cultures, different languages while growing up in a tiny village in South of France where there was nobody who looked like me. So that's kind of some of the challenges that I encountered with my adoption
story. Yeah. And that's exactly what we want to talk about. Just those tough questions that white parents who are considering adopting or fostering black or brown children might encounter. I think there's a lot of worry around, I mean, first of all, there's more awareness, I think around identity and the importance of it. And now all of the issues are being brought to the forefront of how little education has been done and how much more needs to be done so that those mistakes from the past
aren't repeated. So I encourage listeners to go back and listen to our first episode with Christelle, but we'll just dive into a few follow-up questions that we had about your experience. I'm wondering if you can paint the picture for us of what it was like in your home in Madagascar and then moving to France, like the big differences that you noticed, I'm sure the culture shock that you experienced, just what everything looked like and sounded like. Can you just paint that picture
to get us in the mindset of what it might be like for a young child? Yes, of course. I mean, for me, it was like day and night. Everything was so different in Madagascar. I lived by the sea, you know, it's that kind of careless childhood, running around by the sea all the time with my friends. And I lived in a very tiny village, fishing village. So that's kind of what my childhood, my memory of my childhood is about, playing on the beach, living with my mother
in the village. But also in terms of, you know, everyday life, everything was, it was more bad, you know, even like the food, it's, everything is based on rice and cow meat and a lot of fruit, like mango fruit and lychee and, you know, some, a lot of those things doesn't even exist in France. So that's in itself as a very big culture shock and the language was very different, although in Madagascar, the administrative language was French, but in the village where I was living,
because it's very small, hardly anybody speaking French on a daily basis. If they had to go into the big city and deal with paperwork, then they would speak French, but on a daily basis, I wasn't speaking French. So I had to learn the language. And actually, when I was put into the missionary, the Catholic missionary, I was not allowed to even speak my own language anymore. Once I got there, I was told I had to speak French, so I had to learn. And my French wasn't very good at the time,
so I had to start learning French on a daily basis from that time. And when I got to the orphanage, I was going to a French school. So very quickly, I actually lost my language. And also, I think one important thing that was very different for me is in terms of, because I was put into the Catholic missionary, it was very much based on religion. Prior to that, a lot of the things that I have learned was about African spirituality. So my
grandparents would be dealing with everything around plant medicine, for example. So I've never learned about medication until I got to France. So things like that is very different in itself. So yeah, getting to France was a real culture shock, because even if I started learning French, I didn't actually understand very much by the time I got to France. And I also felt stuck because I was already been forbidden to speak my own language. So at that point, I couldn't even
speak my own language, because I think that was part of the trauma. My brain just shut down about my own language. And yeah, I mean, I was surrounded living in a culture where I would see black people every time. And actually, I've never questioned why we're all just black in Madagascar. Actually, in Madagascar, I think it was more when we see French people in Madagascar. And those also, I mean, my adoption is very complex, because Madagascar was not independent from the French
until 1960. And I was adopted in the 80s. So it's 20 years difference. So that period was very complex in the history of between France and Madagascar. And that's partly why the missionary Catholic were in France, because they were trying to educate the local people. So for me, white people was, I didn't see many white people growing up in Madagascar, just the random missionary in the village, and sometimes people coming to tourists visiting
in the seaside village. So going into a mansion where majority of people were white, that was also quite a culture shock. But because suddenly it was a reverse situation, I was the minority, I didn't see anybody who looked like me around. And that's automatically, I think, questioned like, oh, it's the first time I think I realized I was black in a way, I was different to everybody else,
I guess. Yeah. Well, the trauma of losing your language and the food and the sites and everything that made you who you were and what was home and then instantly put into a place that is completely different. I wonder if you could describe the home environment that you went into. So obviously, like you mentioned, your parents were white, did you have siblings that were already living there? And just what it was like to step into a new household?
Yeah, so my adoptive parents were also foster parents. So the house was, there's lots of children. So they had two of their own biological children. And then they had, at the time, it varied, but I would say the average was about four, six children from foster services around the house. So it was always a very busy house. And I also had my mother's parents leaving down stuff from us. So it was a very busy house. That's a lot of people. Did you know,
were you expecting that? Like, was it explained to you that it's going to be like, it's a house full of people and you're getting right into this whole ecosystem? Well, I got some pictures. The picture only showed my adoptive parents and their two biological children in the picture. So I wasn't expecting anybody else around. But also, even when I got the picture, I didn't understand what the meaning of all this. I didn't understand what adoption was. I didn't understand why I was
going into this place. And for me, I think at the time when I was told, I didn't even realize how far it was from my own country. I didn't, you know, I've got no idea as a child, not having left my village, how what that is only when I was in the plane and it was taking forever, I guess being on the plane, I think it was like 30 hours journey. So that's only when, you know, even going to the airport, that was a culture shock because our tradition in Madagascar, that girl always wear
a dress or a skirt and trousers is reserved for boys or men. And they put me into this tracksuit traveling in the plane. Oh, wow. And even that I couldn't compute. I didn't understand why am I wearing trousers? It's boys wear trousers. And even that it's just little things, but it was very difficult for me to understand because it wasn't something I was taught about. I wasn't taught about like, are we going into this very different culture? Things are going to be very
different. I can't remember anybody telling me that all I can remember is this big show of this family. But yeah, it didn't really compute in the plane. What's happening? Well, that's interesting because I think we talk a lot about adoption education for adoptive parents, but with older kids who were getting adopted, is there like educating the child who's about to be adopted about where they're going and being sensitive to the loss that they're experiencing.
Of course, there are a lot of infant adoptions and there's not as much explanation that can happen, but there's probably just as much adoption happening for older kids that the education just isn't happening. Yeah. And I think the other in my household in France, what's I found difficult was because my parents, because I was adopted for the public missionaries, so my family was very Catholic. And when I say very Catholic, I still are very Catholic today. And it was praying every day.
And that is something I never did. Like I said, my family was more into African spirituality, so it wasn't something that I was even educated about what Catholicism was. And it's things like having to go confess to someone. I couldn't understand why I had to go. Just for me, it was reiterating things like I have done something bad that I have to go confess to someone else. And that's, I think, has impacted the way of life as I was growing up, because I always have that
guilt and shame having to go confess because I've done something wrong. That has been, I think, quite difficult to understand. But yeah, the family was loving. I had a lot of love, but I think it's just a culture shock and not being prepared about what I was going into. And I think my family were not prepared either. I think there is this idea about wanting to have
a child. I think in the 80s and now, I think why people adopt might be very different. And I even think when I speak to my parents now, I think they're more apologetic about, you know, they wanted to provide a good home for a child, but they were not prepared about all the emotional side of the adoption. And also, they were not educated about what trauma I might have before coming to them. And I had a lot of trauma in itself because my mother passed away before I was
even nine. And I didn't have any support or time to grieve about that. So, you know, there's things like an early drought when I was five or six. And that's, you know, even to this day, I love water, but I'm very scared of water at the same time. So there's things that, from my own history, that my parents were not even aware. So even, you know, like they had the swimming pool, they couldn't understand, for example, that, you know, who didn't want to go swimming.
So it's just little things that, you know, things that have happened in my past that my parents didn't know. And I'm not prepared for. And I couldn't explain to them either why I didn't want to go swimming. You know, internally I felt a fear, but I couldn't tell them, oh, this is the reason why at the time it didn't compute that, oh, I nearly drowned when I was this age. And that's why I was scared. You know, at that age, it didn't make the connection. So I couldn't even,
you know, verbalize it to them. Right. Well, you're probably in survival mode. You're just processing all the new things that are happening in front of you. And you don't have to ponder on the thing from the past that might be impacting the now, because there's so much happening at the same time. Did you feel like it was, like, was there open communication between you and your
parents about adoption? Were there conversations where they would talk about, you know, how they came to the decision of adoption and intentionally trying to help you feel part of the family, even though everything is new? Like, what was the communication like about your adoption? We didn't really have any communication about the adoption. And I think the environment where we were, because there's so many of us in the house, you know, my parents are constantly trying to
raise those other children at the time. I don't think they had the time. On top of that, my dad was also working in his day job. So it wasn't, I don't think there's a space to be able to talk about it. But also, I don't know, I think there was maybe some preconceptions from them that because they've had foster children for such a long time, you'll be the same from an adopted child. But actually, sometimes it wasn't the same because most of the foster kids would go weekend
to see their family or from time to time. I didn't have any of that. I, you know, as you know, adoption is a complete severance from your family. So in that sense, that separation is harder to accept, I suppose. But yeah, no, we never, and even now, you know, in the last few years, we started to talk about it because I needed to know things about why they adopted and, you know,
why they were not taking much more interest about my culture. And, you know, I mean, at the beginning when I was adopted, and also have a sister who has been adopted from Madagascar, but we know blood related. And at the beginning when I was adopted, the agency from where they adopted us would have like a yearly reunion. So all the children that's been adopted through that agency, that agency would meet. And actually, the majority of them would have been from Madagascar,
Ivory Coast, or India. So it was the one only dealing with international adoption. So at the beginning, I would see some of the people that were adopted at the same time as me, so there was that connection. But I left France when I was 18. I moved to the UK, because I just felt that I couldn't, I wasn't fitting in that environment. And I needed to, I don't know, I needed to just do something
different. So I went to study in the UK when I left when I was 18. So I suppose that's kind of, I only spent eight years in France, although I still got the accent, which I can't get rid of. So yeah, that's part of the assimilation of being assimilated to a language at early age and being forced to learn that language has been so imprinted in my DMA.
Yes. So I'm moving to the UK. I remember previously you talking about feeling like there are people like me here, and there's just more ability to freely express who you are and different, just more variety than you experienced in your home and in your neighborhood growing up. And growing up, so you had black siblings and white siblings, is that right? What was that like? Like, did that feel significant to you? Because I feel like
perception is such a big thing. Everybody is paying attention to everybody else. And some parents might feel self-conscious, they're out in public. And my family doesn't look exactly the same as all the other families, because we have kids of different races. And you also describe growing up in a place that you were one of the only black children in the area, right?
And so, does that feel significant? You're going out in public as a family and are you grappling with, our family doesn't look exactly like all of these other families out here. Yeah, I think it was all the time. I think my family were okay with it because they're the one making the decision to adopt children from a different country. And like I mentioned, I think at the time through the church there was a lot of, you know, the
white savior behavior, kind of, I'm saving a child from their environment. So it was kind of, you know, I would see people would be like, oh, congratulations, well done for saving this child life kind of things, but it would automatically will be visible because you're not the same color.
So people would see I am not a biological child. I think at school, even children didn't understand it because every time I would say, oh, this is my mom or this is my dad or this is my sister, people would be like, you could see on their face that they couldn't understand what I'm talking about. And I had that even in my teenage year. That's such a good point because when someone meets you, people are sort of filling in the, oh, this is what your family must look like. And then
they meet you with your family. And all of a sudden it's almost like the hard thing you've experienced in life. It's constantly there. Like people kind of see that by nature of you being with a family that doesn't look like you, something hard has happened in your life. And so I'm sure the wheels are turning and like there's curiosity, but people don't want to overstep.
Like, did you feel people try to grapple with that? Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like I said, even in my teenage year, I mean, I had my mother's brother is about the same age as my sister, which is my parents' biological daughter. So when I used to go out when I was 18, I'm going, he was probably in his mid twenties. And I would say, oh, that's my uncle. And I think people get so surprised because I think they couldn't understand the age gap, but also the color
didn't match. So it was very interesting. And even, I think even when I was, I had my daughters, I had my daughter very young. And I remember traveling with my cousin. So obviously he's a white, he's a white male. And we have the same surname because I took over my adoptive parents surname. So my daughter is look like me. My cousin doesn't look like me, but we've got the same name and my daughter doesn't have the same surname because she's got a bad surname.
And it was almost like people thought that I stole that child because, you know, they thought I was traveling with my husband's first of all, you know, all this assumption that we've got the same surname, that must be my husband and this child. So I had to always travel with so much paperwork to a letter from my daughter's dad to say she was allowed to travel because the French
are so mad with that paperwork. And it's, yeah, it was really crazy because I always have to prove at times that who I was traveling with my family member, like my husband or whoever. And that was really awkward at the time. Yeah. It's, it's always, it's just always present where maybe some adoptees can hide it or bury it and not have to talk about it. Even travel logistics, that you're, you're, you're having to process it constantly. It's a very present part of your life.
What about like hair care, skincare? I know that if, for parents who are not black, raising black children, hair care is so important. And, you know, taking care of skin is so important. And it's, it takes learning to figure out how to do it. And unless you, unless you grew up doing it. So what was, what was that like going from Madagascar, you're surrounded with people who can
help you care for your hair. And then you're with white parents who, like, did they know, were they, were they ready for taking, like helping you with your, with your hair? Yeah. I don't think my mother was ready. And I think it's harder for a child who's older, because you don't have even the time to adjust yourself, at least when the baby has got time to learn the changes. But when a child is already older and have the hair already in a certain way,
I think it's harder. And my mother was very good with the skincare. I would give that to her because I, you know, she was always moisturized, moisturized. She was very big on that. And I think she was very big on that. So I didn't really struggle with the skincare. But I, yeah, I've gone through so many different things with my hair. I had a period where I was straightened a day because again, everybody around me had straight hair. And so I wanted to look like
everybody because I didn't want to stand out. So I would go through straightening and burning my scalp. And yeah, those are painful moments. And, you know, even like going to the village of Dressa and she would do perm on my hair because she wouldn't know anything else. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
Yeah. The experimentation of all the different things that I've tried, it was interesting. Until I managed to find, and I don't know, I can't remember at the time if I found it or if my mother found it, a black hairdresser in a couple of city bellow away from where we lived, who would braid my hair. And I think that saved my life. Finding them because, and then I would go with like the whole day, sat in this dresser for someone to braid my hair. But at least I was
okay for a few weeks. And I knew that there were not that far away I could go back again. But I think the first five years was just experimentation. Yeah. That is, and at the time there's not YouTube tutorials and things like that where she could sort of teach herself. So that's good that that experience happened. Did she stay with you? Because braiding takes a long time. Would she sit in there with you or like drop you off?
Yeah, she would drop me off and come back later on. And I think she was lucky with my sister because my sister, the one I mentioned from Madagascar, she came, she years after me. And my sister in a way she was lucky in that sense because Madagascar is a very diverse community. So a lot of people look Malaysian because Malagasy, Malay, it's from the same origin. So a lot of South Asian people move to Madagascar. And so it's a mix of Indonesian,
Malaysian and Africans in the islands. So my sister is more from the Asian side. So her hair is very curly. It's a lot straighter than mine. So she didn't have to go through all the struggle I had with my hair. So yeah, she was a lot more, she could identify with a lot more, she could have a white hair really in that sense. So she didn't have to go through. She hardly had her hair braided actually. So she didn't have to go through that.
Yeah. Well, that's very interesting. And then you go to the UK and were there more options that then at least and between you doing yourself or at least being able to find somebody to do it for you? Yeah, no, absolutely. The UK was, I mean, it's interesting because I could see the diversity, but at the same time, it was hard to adjust because I've then been raised into this white environment. And then I go to the UK. And it's also a very different culture because in
the UK, it's a lot of Caribbean people. So it's, I was then surrounded by people with, again, very different culture from African and Caribbean are very different. So I, although I could, I was happy to be in the middle of people who look like me. It was still a struggle because I didn't feel like I was fitting in because I didn't understand or know about their own culture. So that was, again, another learning point and having to learn to be black in a way.
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, even today, even like when I went back to Madagascar in 2010, I could see that I was so Westernized and the way they could spot from miles away that I wasn't living on the islands because they knew I was a tourist. So things like that, it's, he knows that, you know, he haven't been in this island for this long. And even though you've got the color, some part of you is no longer what other people in the islands live every day. So it's, again,
another learning point. And yeah, you have to adjust all the time. And I think that's that the issue, one issue adopters has to do because no matter where you go, and I think that's where the belonging issue come from, because we never know where we fit in or where we belong, because we have to constantly adapt to situation. So it's very difficult to really feel at home in a way. And, you know, when people ask me why is home? Yeah, I always say France,
but you know, it's, I only lived for eight years. Yeah, interesting answer, because I think people ask me, Oh, would you move back to France now? I'd say no. It's really interesting. I think at heart, I'm definitely, you know, Africa feels home, but in terms of practicality, I don't really know where I would say home, because I've moved around so much in Europe. So yeah, it's an interesting question. Yeah, because something as simple as
basically get to know you question, where are you from? You're not about to unload well, this is where I grew up. And then I was adopted here because, but they are both home. And so the conflict of just answering such a simple question is not something that everybody has to deal with, but trans, but international adoptees are dealing with it constantly. Yeah. Yeah. I still don't know the answer.
Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's interesting because having a daughter now, she can feel some of the, those nuances, because she, I've moved so much in my life that she also doesn't feel like the specific place. I mean, she lived most of her life in the UK. There was moved so much in the UK as well at that time, that's why I'm so happy to be here. UK as well at that time that she doesn't even feel like she has a specific place she could call
home. And that has been, for me, it was a bit sad to know that because we are so devoted, you know, uprooted for so many times in our life that I think subconsciously that's why I've moved. I continue to move a lot in my life because still looking for that place where I'm going to feel I belong. And I don't know if people ever find it. But yes. It sounds like it's a, it's a place that you have to create instead of a place that's made for you because like Madagascar is home because
you were born there and then another home is chosen for you. You didn't get to choose France. And then, you know, the rest of your adulthood is where, where am I choosing to be? And it's a lot of exploration because you've lived to the range of the feeling very comfortable to feeling very uncomfortable. Yeah. And I think I stayed in the UK the longest only because my daughter was born
there and I didn't want to move out of the place she was born because I went for that. And it's an interesting thing to think about now because it's not automatically a place I would say, if you ask me, or would you live in the UK this long? I'll be like, no way, but this is the place I live the most. But because of the experience I've had before, so that's kind of impacted how I couldn't see myself moving my daughter away from her dad and live from a different country
until she was old enough to live by herself. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's talk a little bit about your coaching experience. So you help adopt these, I guess you should explain it. You explained it at the beginning, but I won't put words in your mouth of like me attempting to explain it because you say it so beautifully. Yeah. So the supporting is really around how they deal
with their adoption journey and their own identity. So I do, even before coaching, I was doing a lot of work around identity and I focus on black adoptees because a lot of the work I did before I came into coaching was working with the Caribbean and African communities. So I felt that I had that lived experience and I could support people in terms of their identity in that area.
So with the adoptees, it's really looking, because sometimes we are stuck in our adoption story and we use that as who we are, but actually we don't have to be having that whatever that story was imposed on us. So it's trying to support those adoptees to form their own identity. And that could be, you know, the adoption story could still be a big part of their identity, but if that is keeping them stuck, then they need to find ways to accept the situation and then build a new
identity of who they really want to be in the future. So it's supporting them in that process and how they can move from where they are now and who they want to be in the future. So that's kind of the journey I take them for. That's such important work to have someone like you who's experienced it and can offer perspective and then help them make something new. And with the art and the fashion design that you do, I'm sure that does that come into it at all of like,
of using art in your coaching? I've not chosen so much in the coaching, but I'm doing a retreat. So that's something I want to bring in. So I've done a lot of exhibition around African history. So I am bringing those into my retreat. So I'm bringing the exhibition that I did a few years ago on African queens to the retreat for the women to identify and then do a workshop around that. So for them to explore their own heritage and see if there is anything in their heritage that they
would like to explore further. So for example, if they came from Africa and there is an African, historical African queen they want to learn more about, then they can do some research and do, and we do some sharing about each one's heritage. So I am trying to bring it. And also the film, my dream is really to, part of this going back to Madagascar with my daughter and document my adoption story. So I wanted to do that with a film at some point. So hopefully that will happen
next time I go back to Madagascar. But I also want to do like a short documentary about people being displaced from their own country and how that impact their identity. That's amazing. We are here to support all of it. Cause it just, that sounds like that's such important work to see represented. I'm sure it would be very healing for an adoptee who's experienced this displacement and not being able to find home to see someone else's journey. I'm not alone in
all of this. Someone else is feeling the way that I'm feeling and representing it in a considerate way. So with your coaching, what would you say is at the heart of the hopes or the desires of the adoptees that you coach? Like if you had to summarize the experiences you've had talking with them and just fill in the blank of like, like they just wish or they just want blank. Like what's the thing that, that they're missing that they really long for?
I think it's that sense of belonging and knowing who they are. So yeah, like I say, a lot of the work I do is around identity. So it's, it's come back again, who they are. And sometimes because of how complex adoption is, it can't really know your history. So that is where a lot of the work I do is about, okay, so you are where we are now. Who do you want to be? Even if you don't know your past, who do you want to be moving forward? What type of work do you want to do? Which
area, what makes you happy? I think sometimes it's also about little things like self care. I think a lot of adoptees don't always have that into place. And they, you know, they've put everybody else before them and they get to a place where they don't know who they are anymore, because
you know, they're the last person they think about. So starting with little things like self care and getting a routine, giving tools about how they can take care of themselves to be able to move forward to the person that wants to be that identity that they want to become moving forwards. What kind of communication do most of the adoptees you coach have with their parents? Like, would you say most of them grew up not really talking about or processing their adoption,
or some of them did, and they're still grappling with it? Like, are there any themes that you notice from that? I think there's a mixture, definitely. I think people will come into, I mean, there's a fine line between therapy and coaching. And I think I mentioned that last time, so I don't do any therapy work. So I would say that therapy
will look at all the trauma side of what they've been through in the past. And very often, I think, if someone is not processed that part of their trauma, I kind of support them just with the coaching. So I would recommend them to work with a therapist first, and then when they're ready,
they can come back to me and work on where they want to go. But a lot of the PR, I think a lot of the adoptees, when they come to coaching, it's because they either don't have the connection of their adoptive parents, so they're feeling a bit stuck and lost, and definitely don't have the connection with their birth parents either. Or some of them have had reunions, but actually the reunions didn't work out very well. So they're still feeling like they're isolated and don't
have anywhere to turn to. So it's a mixture, but I would say the majority is people not knowing where they are at, where they are, and they don't have the support in their immediate environment. Is there, I guess what would be your advice to parents adopting black children of acknowledging differences, but also not overdoing it? Because there's like, I would imagine there's kind of this balance between you, you're part of our family, we love you, we don't want to talk about
how we are different from each other all the time. But we also don't want to wait until you're grappling with some really tough issues, and then you feel like you can't bring it up because we've never talked about it before. Do you have any advice on that? Yeah, I think it's about communication and being open with the child and allow the child to lead, because I think the child,
each child is different. Some will be ready very early on, some won't be ready. So allowing the child to let you know when they're ready, so when they're ready, open up a little bit more and support the child to explore. But I think from early on, as soon as they can start talking with the child about their bad ones is better, because that will give the child time to process it.
I would also say that the parents should educate themselves no matter how much the child is ready to know, because you don't want to wait until the child is ready then to find out this information. At least you are prepared when the time is coming for you to provide that. And I think also if there is, you know, I'm thinking about like in the way I was raised, I didn't really have anything around
the house reminding me of my culture. And I think if I had things around the house that reminded me of this, then I would be asking questions a lot more to my parents about, oh, why have you got this? What does this represent? But because I didn't have anything around, I didn't feel like I could even open up the conversation about that. So I think having things to make this conversation
easier with the child is also useful. Even, you know, books. I mean, even I remember, I mean, with my daughter, even though she's not adopted, I had to make that specific effort, because I think for a child of an adoptee is very difficult as well, because they still feel the repercussion of their parents being adopted. So I had to make the specific choices that, you know, I had books about Madagascar when she was a baby. And, you know, she's a lot more
interested about learning about Madagascar than she's learning about France, for example. So, and, you know, she's really keen about finding out even about the tradition in Madagascar,
who my parents were, what they were like. And she's got a lot of curiosity about that. And when I look at her, I'm like, oh, these are the things that I wish I had as an adoptee, to be able to have all this curiosity and, you know, being able to ask questions, even if they didn't have the answer, but I didn't feel like I had the space or anything to prompt me to ask those questions. That is very interesting. I think that's such a good point, because as I'm a foster
parent, and I feel like it's all on me to ask the right question in the right moment. If one of the kids is missing a biological family member, that it's all on me to respond appropriately, but it feels a lot more organic to also just have reminders around. So if they are curious, then like, oh, here's a picture and it sparked a memory or adoption books or foster care books,
like using those as prompts. I like how you said that, to prompt them instead of trying to analyze every situation exactly right, and then hoping that you have a good enough question to ask to help them feel safe. Yeah, I think nowadays, like you mentioned earlier, that we've got the internet, we've got so much more resources nowadays that I don't think there's any excuse not to know. And all you have to do is just Google something and you can, you know, you can print out a drawing
for a child to color in, you know, about the culture. It doesn't need to be a big thing, but just, you know, to wake up the child curiosity, take them to a museum. If they're from a different culture and there is an exhibition about that culture, take them there. And that would prompt again some question and for both of them to, you know, the child and the parents to learn at the same time as well. And that is kind of, you know, closing the bond as well at the same time. So
that's important. Yeah, I think the openness around adoption communication has also changed a lot because when, I mean, you've described and there wasn't a lot of communication happening within your family. And I think at the time when though, when adoptions were happening, then it was not as open. I'm sure there was a lot of like, maybe don't have a lot of reminders of home around, because maybe your child will see it and it will have a negative effect on them. They'll get sad
instead of feeling like my parents care about where I came from and it reminds me of home. So there's this like, they want to put a lid on the emotional processing, but now I think that lid's being taken off where we want to live with the reality a little bit more and be sensitive to how
we talk about it. Yeah. I think you also help when the child is ready to find out a bit more about the past because, or if something else happened, because nowadays we've got the internet, like I say, it's a lot different, you know, people are finding out their relatives on Facebook, like never before. So, you know, if you don't talk about that and one day the child said, I found my sister or whatever online. I mean, even for me, I didn't even have the internet, but my step sister from
Madagascar, I got a letter at around 1415 for my sister saying, here I am, I am your sister. And my adoption was supposed to be a closed adoption. My parents didn't know how she found my address. So it was, I don't think my parents were prepared either how to deal with that. And I felt stuck as well, because part of me wanting to know her, but part of me, my family is saying, oh, be careful, you don't know who this is. So it's kind of having, be prepared
the day that something like that might happen. How are you going to react to this? How are you going to support the child moving forward? I think it's important to, and all this preparation before that could help to come to that moment. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything else that you would want to bring up regarding international adoption, transracial adoption, anything that came to mind we haven't talked about yet? Well, it's, I don't, I mean, I don't know in the US,
but in Europe, international adoption is being stopped more and more. So I don't know if it's the case in the US, but in, for example, in France, they stopped international adoption back in October last year. So, and it's the same for Ivory Coast, Mali, Ethiopia stopped about eight years ago. So there's more and more, a lot of countries will stop it because there's a lot of issues behind it.
Oh, like human trafficking concerns. Yes, exactly. I mean, in France, last year, there's a big scandal for an adoption agency because all the adopters from Mali came together and realized that actually the adoption was not as legal as it seems to be because they found their birth family and the birth family have said they never agreed for the adoption. So their family are still in Mali and alive. And, you know, as Aima have said, we're putting our child for you to support us. We come
back to get the child, but the child will never come back. And I am not sure for mine, because my, I found out last year that my adoption took place within three months. And that is very initial for an international adoption to be so quick. So part of the reason I'm asking my parents a lot of questions at the moment is who signed my adoption? And I've been told by my half sister who contacted me when I was 14, that it was my father, but it's very strange
because I never knew who my father was. And my mother never told me who my father was. So I don't know who signed this adoption paper, but apparently someone signed it and my mother wasn't around. So there's a lot of question around international adoption. And like I say, I don't know in the U S but in Europe, there's been a lot of the adopters, adult adopters are coming together and making lots of noises and wanting international adoption to be stopped.
International adoption to be stopped. Very interesting. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not aware what's happening in the U S regarding that, but very interested to read more about it because the, you know, Europe and UK, all the countries are a lot closer together. So it can kind of like a ripple effect, whereas I'm not totally sure in the U S yet. That's very interesting though. Yeah. So what's the space? Well, I'm really interested to hear how your, like, how your
journey goes to hopefully go back to Madagascar and find out a little bit more. Suddenly the, the idea of a documentary feels more urgent of, of your life, of really finding out what were the circumstances around it. Yeah. And I actually found out recently, which again, when we talk about trauma, you know, my parents didn't know anything about the trauma of my, my birth family, but I found out recently that the tribe I come from, um, went through a genocide, uh, by the French
in 1947. So we're talking about not that long ago, but it's, it's not in any history book. And it was taboo for the people in Madagascar to even talk about it because of the trauma that's created. And this is a tribe where I come from. So I know in 1947, that would have been my grandparents generation. So when you talk about generational trauma, you know, I, I won't be surprised if I carry some of those trauma that they carry it because it's only two generations down.
And I don't know how old my mother was at the time, but I would definitely, and that's also part of the reason I've always believed. And I don't know this for sure, but I always believed when my mother left me in the Catholic missionary, my grandparents never came to see me because the first time my mother went to hospital, she left with my grandparents. So I don't know why she left me at the Catholic missionaries a second time, but my parents,
my grandparents never came to visit me at the Catholic missionary. But, you know, if you think about the history, if they went for that genocide, there's no way they're going to come and approach the white missionary and speak to them. So there's a lot of trauma and history behind a lot of the international adoption as well that people take for granted, I think, sometime. Yeah. Well, equally interesting that your, your mom felt like comfortable enough to make that decision for her
to approach the missionary. But then your grandparents said, maybe to not feel comfortable doing that, there's a clear difference in that, that dynamic. And you have a biological brother, right? I think you mentioned he passed away in the last several years. He did. He passed away in 2022. And that was, again, I think that probably, you know, created a lot of emotions that should come out because when I went back in 2010, I didn't see him because he
was working in a different city to where we used to live. So I didn't, and also because I don't speak the language, you know, it's very difficult. This is another thing us as international adoptee have because we don't speak the language anymore. We are relying on a translator and we don't know we are talking to. We haven't been in the country for over 10, 15 years, sometimes 20 years. So
whoever you're talking about, you're not sure if that is your biological family. And it's very common when adoptees return to their country that people have this assumption that because you have been raised in the West, we've got all sorted out. So very often there's people who are cheating the system and come forward to say, I am your family when they're not because I want something from you. So for me, it was very, I couldn't, I didn't really kept the contact
very often because part of the family that I met just wanted money from you, from me. And, and because I didn't see my brother and only speaking to him for the front for a translator, I didn't feel a connection. And that was difficult. But at the same time, when he passed away in 2022, I felt like, oh, that's, I lost my chance to even find out a bit more because he was the only person
really I could ask about my mother. So I didn't, yeah, I didn't have, I've lost that now. I mean, he's got a daughter who is now in Germany, but I don't know how much she knows about my mother. So it's, yeah, it's a difficult in a sense because we never know who we are in a sense, really, because even if you go back and especially in Africa, like paperwork is not always, you know, easy to find as in the West. So there's no guarantee that even if you go back,
find people that those people are 100% your biological family. So yeah, it's, it's interesting. So with your brother, he's an older brother. Do you have any ideas why you were placed with the missionaries, but he remained in Madagascar? Was he with your grandparents and just a different, different life? No, it's a different life. I think, you know, in this country, very young,
he go out and work, you know, he's older than me, he's probably five years older than me. So I guess by 15, you are going out and work and even your own life in a way, because my mother was a single mother. So she added to, I guess, him as being the oldest had to be out there and work. So, and he was old enough to go to work so he can look after himself in a way, even though, you know, we're thinking about it, he was still a child, but because he was able to go and work,
I guess that was good enough for him to stay. And like I say, it was a very strange thing because my whole family was in the village. So for me, that's part of the question I always ask, because when I went back in 2010, my uncle didn't even know what happened to me. He didn't know I was adopted. So this is why I don't understand those things that is missing because the missionary didn't even ask my uncle to look after me or to be put for adoption.
But when I speak to my adoptive parents, they were taught that my uncle didn't want to look after me. So there is this still conflicting stories that I keep getting. And I don't see why my uncle would lie to me and say, he didn't know what's happened to me. So it's, yeah, it's difficult for me to swallow that. Sometimes maybe the adoption was not as legal as it could be. But yeah, it's
things you have to accept, I suppose, because otherwise they get stuck in that story. And that's what I'm trying to tell my clients that you have to get past that story if you want to move on sometime. Otherwise it just hits you inside and it just becomes very difficult. So yes, there's a lot of acceptance, forgiveness, self-forgiveness involved in the journey and compassion, a lot of self-compassion because you have to accept where you are.
Yeah. And you have to create that yourself. It sounds like in a lot of ways, because no one person could fully understand everything you've experienced. So it takes a lot of intention, I would imagine, to choose a different story or at least a different part and then move forward with it. Yeah, absolutely. And I think no matter what, I don't think anybody or any adopted can know 100% for sure whatever stories I've got is the real or the absolute truth, because there's
so many people involved, there's so many documentation might be changed. So it's very difficult to really know for sure whatever you've got is the real story. So at some point, I think everybody has to make, accept whatever they've got is what they have and take what you can take out of that and move on if you can. I know some people can't, but it's a journey in itself.
Yeah. And if they're talking to you, then they're at least trying and they know there's more work they have to do than like you said, having a therapist and a coach to work with the past and then intentionally creating a new future sounds like really important work. Yeah. And I think I'm still, even though I'm doing this work, I was told by my client that I'm also in this process because I never know how the next information I get, how I'm going to react to that.
It's always changing. Today I'm okay. But when I found out that my adoption was not working, was not legal, how would I react to that? You know, those are the questions that I don't know until I see the information for sure. And I might have a breakdown. Am I not? I don't know. Until the moment comes, it's a journey in itself. And I think, yeah, all of us are moving to a different degree every day about learning where we are and how to cope with it.
I'm hoping and wishing all the best on your journey. I hope the answers come and that there is, you know, if you find a way to document it, how meaningful it would be. I know that I would love to see the outcome. So long-term projects. Very, very excited about. Thank you. And thank you for having me again.
Of course, it's such a pleasure to talk with you. And we talked about a lot of topics, I think international adoption, transracial adoption, you just hear a wealth of information and really appreciate you sharing your life and your insights. Thank you. Thank you so very much for listening to this episode of The Open Adoption Project. And a big thank you to Christelle for sharing your story and teaching and helping us to learn
and grow. We are always so grateful for adoptees who share their experiences and perspectives. It really is so impactful and makes a big difference. So big thank you, Christelle. We really appreciate you. And also thank you, Alicia. Yeah, I really liked this episode and there are a lot of things that they dove into, but the one that's kind of just sticking with me is, you know, Christelle has a lot of, still a lot of unanswered questions about her experience. And there's the possibility
that she'll never have some of those answers. And for me, yeah, it is really, really hard. And for me, that just makes me like doubly like invested in making sure that I can provide our children as much information as possible and go the extra mile to uncover or find extra information or more connections so that they will always have that.
Absolutely. And sometimes that's not possible, which is hard too. But I feel like that's where this other kind of openness that we've talked about in the past comes in, where you have these open dialogues and still have that door open to talk about feelings and emotions and about how it's hard to not have all the answers and information, right? Yeah. And it sounded like as a child for her, that really wasn't any of a conversation.
It sounds like her mom was really busy raising other children and her dad working. And there's a lot of things going on in people's lives. And I think that that's another takeaway for me too. Yeah. Those conversations really are so important. Openness is important. And yeah, if you can't have an open adoption structurally, have an open dialogue. For sure. Yep. All right. Well, thank
you so much again for listening to this episode. Just a quick little shout out. We have recently published the openness guide for adoptive parents, what you should know about open adoption, and we're really proud of it. So you can find that on our website, openadoptionproject.org and find all the information about how to purchase that. We also have it linked in our bio on Instagram at open adoption project on Instagram.
That's right. And for a couple more days up through this Thursday, April 18th, you can get 25% off with the code launch OAP. That's L-A-U-N-C-H-O-A-P. All right. So if that's something that you're interested in that might help you, then we wrote it hoping that it would help others in their journeys. It's really what we wish we had had when we were adopting the first time. All right. Well, thank you so much for being here, friends, and we'll be back soon.