Because I want to say hello and welcome to Patrick Van Neuen. How are you?
Fine, fine. Hi, Patrick. I feel good. Perfect. I'm uh in a good moment. I'm relaxing. I'm enjoying football and there are periods in life and especially in life of a football coach or a football manager that you always get offered a break if you want or not. And this is the period that I'm in now and uh trying to fill it with football, trying to discuss about football, trying to meet different types of, of let's say football related uh people and yeah, I'm enjoying it.
We haven't seen you. Uh I haven't seen you for a while. Uh, but we did saw you on the last couple of weeks watching some games of Moab Tel Aviv in the youth department and we saw you watching, I think on the leg. What are you doing in, in, in those current days?
Well, uh let's say the period I was first here in December, I was one of the countries that's still playing football. The rest of the country is taking a break. So I try to, to use that period also. Um and yeah, I, I like to be in Israel. I like to enjoy the life here. Uh This, this last week I also gave a presentation to the coaches of the pro license of uh of Israel. So more or less sharing knowledge, uh at some moments that I can doing it here in Israel, doing it in, uh
in Poland or in the Netherlands. So these kind of things, uh keep me busy at the moment,
you know that I spoke with some guys on the Youth Department of Mobi Tel Aviv, um let's say around November and I asked them if someone is, is, is checking what is, what is up with them with the youth guys with the players. And they told me that you called some of them in the department and asked them if everything is ok during the war and that they appreciate
it a lot when II I try to, to be in touch with them. You have some, some coaches in, in the academy that still reach out at some moments or for football questions or to check how our life is going and how the new club is going. Um So yes, it's not, not only returning the favor, what it's being correct to the people that assisted you in, uh, in developing a youth department. And with some of them, I'm more in touch with David. We have regular contact
speaking and discussing about football, watching games together. So these are the things that come out of a long period being in
Israel. I remember in 2021 when there was the, the firing rockets from Gaza, you weren't at the beach like it didn't really affected you and you came here doing war
at that time. It was the period of war. A lot of foreigners leaving the country because it was uh for them, a new situation. Um for me in that period to, to be the head coach, I don't think you can leave the ship and uh you need to, you need to be, he
did the semi final against the without the
foreigners. So this, uh this was not in my mind and, and I don't have, I didn't have the feeling at that time and I don't have it, let's say now that, um, that you are under threat, I think a part of the country don't feel scared, you don't feel it. I don't feel scared. I think that the Israeli army is doing a good job in that to take away the feeling of, of being afraid and continuing
your life. This, this I knew from situations before that there were smaller threats, but also in, in my experience, let's say it helped me living in the last two years in Ukraine by having it, having the knowledge and not to be nervous about it. Were you
safer here or in Ukraine?
I think that both the countries did are doing a good job. The start of the war in Ukraine. I, I wasn't, I came in summer so the bad part for the Ukrainians, I didn't, I didn't notice. Um, so in the moment I stepped into Ukraine again, it was already more of an organized, safer situation with, at some moment, some, some threats.
Maybe we can say that where people see a threat or fear, you see an opportunity.
I don't see, especially if I'm on the job that I should, I can leave my job for this. I don't think that it shows leadership. If you, if you move out, I think that uh it comes with the position and I think also that uh it shouldn't come from you. Uh If the c really thinks or the government really thinks it's, it's unsafe what we have here. We want all foreigners to leave, then you create a different situation. But if it's my own choice,
then I prefer to continue the job. And especially if the situation where I am, is, is organized in a safe way. And that time we moved away from Tel Aviv and trained in, in Netanya. So at that time, just 20 minutes was already a more safe uh safe area.
Um So we see you now in Israel, as you said, you've been here before you came back now again. Um Is it uh to see football maybe to learn new things about football or is it just you missing Israel on the personal level.
Uh I think it's both I, I like to, to keep in touch with the people that I work with how the development is going. I like to see also the development with my own eyes are players making the progress that you want because a lot of players could play in Europe. So this is always on my mind.
So in, in the, in the way that I work outside of Israel, now, Israel is like also a scouting opportunity for me to see players that or grow from youth into professional players or the younger professional players that I worked with to see if they can make a next step. One of the examples is, is Edoardo, another example is uh Novato that didn't make Maccabi first team officially but was
with me in the training camp at that time. And then, yeah, for, for that reason, I knew the player and I brought him to Shaktar Eduardo to, to Zoya, more or less also
knew Lemkin when he took him to.
No, I I didn't take staff Lemkin to, to Shakin was on the list of, of the Shakta scouting. And uh you know, in from when I, when I came uh to to Shakta, they asked me to speak uh with, with the family because they had a feeling that I maybe would be against him, his signing because at the time that I started because at the time I started in Maccabi, Tel Aviv, they come to come
to Tel Aviv at that time, he was injured. They asked me like, like all the parents do in Israel at 1515 years old, they think they need a contract. So I refused for the simple reason that at that time he was injured, I didn't have a good view on him. They left. So in that whole period, he developed himself
in a different club. And uh for me, if, if Shakai has him on the radar as a scouted player, as a talented player that showed qualities in uh M Alito and in the under 21 and in the main national team, then I cannot be uh be against it. So this is also, and this is just a coincidence of me coming to Shag and him being scouted by, by them, we
will, we will get to the other, but it's nice to know that like he was in some, he had some opinion about him and then he can change it because you know, he developed to be another player for him. That's right. Um We will get to the players was with you on the, on the department further on. But uh I want to ask you before maccabi Tel Aviv in the recent days, appointed Gadi Boer as the academy director. If I remember correctly, he worked on your U department
was his brother, worked, worked with, his brother was in the beginning period in,
was there any chance that you will come back to that position? No,
no, why not? Well, for that, you need to get a question. And uh what I said when we spoke before the, the, the podcast is that, yeah, I'm still on the contract of,
of another club that finishes soon. So for me, the urge to start is not there and also to, to, let's say coming from a coach position to step back into the youth department, but not now like in the future, oh, in the future, I don't say no to, to this kind of opportunities, especially if there is talent and if it's in a club that wants to correctly invest in the department,
I must say because I know a little bit like when he was uh uh in control of everything like in the yacht academy and everything and uh it was, I know, I must say that everything was organized, all the coaches know what to do in training and to how they go to the match. Um the strategy of everything. Now you think that as you see Macabe, I know that he was uh you, you were yesterday in the game against uh against ma under 19.
You think that now as you see, Maccabe, not in the, it's not your first time that you see maab with the under 19, you think they do the same things, same principles that you know,
no uh this, this is not the case and this, this I recognize on the field uh in, in a different age because in the whole period that, that I was on and off in Israel, I saw also on the 16 or on the 17 games. So I try to, to see the different levels how they are progressing. And I think that um that, that the way of developing talent is differently than
I see it, our experience. Well, I like uh I like the, I believe that from a good organization, a child or a coach has the opportunity to grow because he doesn't need to think about it. So that means that his mind is, is focused on football. If I take that uh part away from a coach, it means also that the coach doesn't need to think about that part because he's more or less obligated to do certain things because that's the philosophy of the club and the club wants to go in a certain direction.
And there you have the coaches that assist and there you have the opportunity for players to become better when you are working, let's say, for maccabi Tel Aviv, one of the leading clubs in Israel, then you know that a lot of things uh will come uh by itself because you will have more talent than any other club. That's simply because of the logo and
the attraction of uh of, of the club. But you need to manage it, you need to bring it all in the same direction, uh to get a team to get a philosophy and at the end to get an end product to come into the first team. And for that, you need to take decisions, uh not by the coach, but by the management or by the manager of the academy or by the manager of the football department.
So when you saw the under 16, under 17, under 19, you recognize that there is no like someone leading the path for
those teams. I think it's, it's visible that coaches learn something. And let's say in, in all the years that they are in maccabi or that they entered maccabi, that there is a certain uh professionalism in coaches. But that I think there is a lack of, of uh has been a lack of control on the people to push them uh to a
higher. And I see that there is not the same philosophy,
ok? But this, this, this can also be a philosophy from the person that comes after if, if it is connected to mine. No, because I think that we educate Children in school for a lot of years, let's say in being better in mathematics or in English or in any language or any subject that I look a little bit the same way to football. I don't think you learn everything in three months, in four months, in five months.
And that there need to be a certain basic understanding of football before you can make uh another step or another development or another tactics. And that is by age or by level that you are playing on
when you see um the guys that grew up in, in your academy now becoming the top players of the Israeli football. Of course, we can speak about Daniel Perez or Oscar. But we also see now in this Maccabi to German and Roy Vivo and others. Um And now you see the new, let's say, uh Maccabi Academy, what goes through your mind on the personal level
that I think that the boys that are now in the first team or that moved away from the first team to play abroad, that they had a decent foundation of, of making the step into professional football. Uh because they knew that what was done with them was also with the intention to bring them to the first team. There was no other uh let's say, thought behind it. We needed those players for the first team to be ready.
Uh which is more or less a task of any academy director to bring the players and Macabi if it, it was at the beginning, very difficult uh because OK, the thought was there was no quality slowly. Every year there was quality uh or players uh return
to Macabe after being on loan. So you saw that uh more or less in that period things that just happened started to happen with, with an idea, players were developed with an idea, players were sent alone with an idea, uh players were loaned to the second division all in one team with a certain idea which guarantees for me, uh a higher percentage of players that are ready for a Maccabi first team
when you were the head coach of Macabe for 10 months and you started the season after winning the cup, you had an option to decide which guys like that will stay in your team and which will go out for a loan or, or will be sold. And you stayed with Daniel Perez. It was your decision to make him the first goalkeeper at that season and
you stayed with Eduardo Guerrero. Uh but as we see now the other guys and now they developed maybe uh it was not enough, uh you know, there was no, there wasn't enough players coming into the team from that group of players like Ido Shaha was sent on loan and Oscar stayed another year in the youth, maybe it was right for him to get up before.
Yeah, I don't, I, I don't, I don't think so. I think that a lot of the development of players is also done on the background. If uh let's say one of the advantages for M de Aviv was when I moved into that code position is that I knew all the academy players, let's say from 16 years old that were able to train or would should be able to train with the first team. So when there were difficulties or injuries for me, it was easy to call the coach or the manager and say, listen,
give me the left wing or under 17. I need the left wing. Uh the same with under 19. I think a lot of the development that let's say fans don't see or our club doesn't see is happened on those days for me on purpose in international breaks, knowing that 67 players would move to the main team. 34 would move into the under 21 meaning you have a gap of 10 players. So that means that you need to continue the development
of another 15 with the help of academy players. And at those moments to, to bring in players from the academy was for me a pleasure because I could just fill up the spots that I needed with talented players that I knew should be able to train with the first team. Uh And to, to have, let's say, have the purpose of developing continuing the fitness of of the other first team players.
Can you can you explain the idea of taking a guy like I Shaar and sending him to a high five that time instead of keeping him inside your team at that
moment. No, it was not a discussion in the way of that. He should move out. The discussion is always with players like Ido or Nadav Needham. Can we give them enough minutes for them to keep, uh the, the the progress also, uh another problem is his parents or agents because I can tell as a head coach, listen, train with me for six months. Be quiet, be every
day on the field. Do your job get better and you will get your chances like that because that gives an opportunity for a player to get used to the professional level to show to the head coach. Listen, I'm not different than let's say the experienced midfielder because that is uh that's decisions you have to make. Do you keep Yani or do you bring uh Io Shao or do you keep Not of Needham? And, and this is something that players at some moment, some other understand, say, listen, I
stay five months. I want to fight for my chance. If I don't play, it's my decision, then I have the winter transfer window. But uh most of the time players are pushed in a direction you need to play, you need to have minutes. We need to make sure that you uh that you play for some players like I know he made at that time. He and Bar Cohen went earlier from, from the under 19 to by the Tel Aviv at that time than other players. Normally they one season on you and then they get so they
make the step. So that means also that you need to make sure that you continue the development of those players. And at that time, if there's not enough minutes and the player has, let's say the urge to play professional football, you need to find the right way for him to develop. I think
that when he go to, when he went to Paul, it's a good, it was a good loan because there is a lot of center midfielder in Aviv and it was a, it's not easy competition, but in the year after you put the blame on more than I think you should take him and make him play even more than g can we say that maybe in the way that use of football? Maccabi Tel Aviv is more like, let's say real Madrid than Barcelona and how they are putting the guys from the youth inside the first team.
Um Well, I think you, I think
because we will not see at the age of 16, like Lain Malo Kali play for Aviv, I see it in Barcelona.
Yeah, I think that an Israeli 16 year old is not as far as a Spanish 16 years old. Um So that is a huge difference and that's purely because of the country. Spain having 120 million people living and 5 million playing football. And here it's a lot less and a lot less Children playing football and adults playing football. So uh to be a 16 year old and making your debut in Maccabi, Tel Aviv. It means also that you need to have the qualities to stay directly.
And I think that, um, the, the youth, the level of youth football is not that strong, that the 16 year old will be ready for, uh, for the first team. I think that, uh, I'm always afraid that, uh, 16 year old will be sent out after a few months and that you don't see him anymore. So I rather make, make a slower development with having more guarantee of the players staying in the first team because we are
touching the subject. I want to ask you because we are already in the subject. We got ahead of the questions uh in your first in your season when you started the preseason, the camp and everything, the training games, you had a game against A P for Yeah. And you, and you took Oscar
in an international break. Yeah. And
he scored in that game also. Yeah. Um, a few months after you left came, um LA and cast and he put Oscar on the first team for the playoffs of this, of the, of the finish of the season. And a lot of fans and media people asked, how is it possible? All that? We haven't heard the name of Oscar before. I mean, he was here, he was in the club, you know, him better than us. What made you took the decision that he needs to stay on the youth level on that season.
I think they made already their official debut in a total cup game. So that was already before that and that is the whole group more or less that is now coming into the first team. And
but isn't Oscar, is Yogi La Mal, let's say like this wasn't he like that? Not
at, not at 1616, not at 16. Because let's say like this Oscar always played up, played always with one year older
until, until the under, under
15 in the under 15. I decided that I think it's the best that he doesn't move to the under 16 because of the size and I don't want the player to be left out because of the size. So there are two things or I let him play under pressure in the under 16 and tell the coach you need to play him, which is, which is an opportunity. But I took the decision and said, listen, uh Oscar and it was, I don't want to say it tough, but to explain it to a child that always played
up and is considered as being talented to, to explain him. Listen, stay in the under 15, stay with your age group. Be the best, be the best every day, be the best every game because that's also a way of developing because his mentality is, is not to slow down. So I'm not taking a risk that uh that he will become lazy because he will only do more. And
that was the decision at that time. And I think it was the the the perfect decision for him to also start believing in himself to dominate the games and to be, be the best because that, that was the moment where he started to, to, to grow in all facets of football, not only the, the, the football part, but also the physical part. So it started to come a little bit together where you could start recognizing this is the one that most likely, in my opinion will make it at 18 years old. Um
Because then he will make the next step. He will be under 17, he will go to under 19 and from there at the moment will come that he needs to start making his debut and more or less that plan worked and he was on the verge of, of making his debut. And one of the things that uh that uh before I started the, the second, let's say the second, uh the new season after the first six months was one
of the requests from from the club. We want you to bring more younger players slowly into the squad because you have developed them and and Oscar Vivo, a lot of other players guy Mizrahi at that time, also players that, that made already, let's say a move from under 92 2nd division slowly to bring them inside because there was a lot of talent and there still is a lot of talent.
I, I must say from my point of view, ok. Um I was coaching against Oscar so it was like, uh you can, you can, you can do nothing against him. And uh when I know that under 15, when he was playing with the, with the year that uh bigger than him, he was, he was also like, he, he was the top goal scorer in the team. And the year after he stay in the under 15, as you say, and every year, stay with his team with his age.
And it was like, not, it's quality for me when I saw him, I must to say for my opinion when he was like in the under 17, under under 16, he was like a player that can play in the first team, not in the capital Avi but maybe in the second division.
OK. But this is, this is a different subject. The two things that, that you don't know of as a coach of, of another team is that outside of him playing in his own age group, the matches, he's training with the under 19 or as under 15, he's training with the under 16 as on the 16 is training with the under 17. So there are uh decisions in his development that still give him the challenge of competing with others or with
older and that, that happened every year. So his challenges were always there but it was not in an official game. I know it was in training sessions was old, it was in training sessions with the first team or it was in friendly games with the under 19 or with the first team. And these are things that are happening.
Yeah, but on training, on training when, when you see Oscar again against the players that like bigger than him and you see the quality that he has. I know in my opinion, I think that he could like play in, in, in the second division when he was like that in
that same season. This is your opinion, in my opinion. And, and if you, if you would have worked for Maccabi Tel Aviv, you worked for him, for him to,
if I was his coach, ok. If I was his coach in the under 15, under 16, I would tell you immediately take him up, but
that's supposed to be and this is, and you, you, that's now one of the problems in Israeli football.
I don't want to win games because of him. I
want, no, no, no, but you are not looking at what is the best in development. And I think that the development has to come from, from taking the right decision. If it's for three months, it's for three months to just send talented players up. Israeli football loses a lot of talented players in this way. So you are responsible, the excuse of the army. It's
a fake excuse. It's, it's an excuse is the development, the way coaches are approaching football, the way coaches are approaching talented players because what uh what would stop you as a coach of a talented player to give him extra attention or to ask for, for extra. Um And, and the other thing I want to tell you, and this is that too many coaches think they know
the philosophy of the club. Uh if an academy as an academy director, he's the one to take that decision, not the coach because he's the one that is looking for the long term or he knows that the first team is not waiting for this player. So I need to find a different path for him to develop. But next summer, I can get him into the training camp. And this is exactly the steps I like to make, not only to predict but also as I said in the beginning, not to get players back to the academy.
If you deliver a player to the first team, it means he needs to stay or he needs to stay or go on loan from, from with you and
with you on this and with you totally. And I would never say like on even or or something, everything was perfect. But with Oscar, I think that Maccabi, the first team of Maccabi could like to see more can benefit
more from him. I don't, I don't agree. I don't agree in this. I think that the moment he started now, let's say to make his debut in the first team was the moment because he didn't return to the youth. And still there were moments that I think this, the coach that, that so called me made him debut in professional football, didn't play him for 10 games also. So there is, there are moments in a young player development that it's all all too excited or he gets an
overload of, of training and Oscar likes to train. So that means that every day he will be tired as if he needs to be with the adults. And I think that you need to protect also. But to recognize the talent is not difficult and there is a lot of talented players that didn't come to the first team of Maccabi, Tel Aviv also in the period that I was not there that I'm surprised that they didn't make it. So we didn't get
the chance. I want to ask you for a capital Aviv, the different of Oscar to Maccabi, what the different like from Gavi to Barcelona or from Yin Barcelona. But you don't think that like they are in the same age, they play like for Barcelona, it's like the best team supposed to be the
best team in the world. No one grows up in Spain and one grows up in Israel. That's one. The second is that I think in that time, uh Barcelona probably also evaluated or scout at Oscar and they didn't make the offer,
uh, only after they got the offer from Red Bull.
So, and if you look at choices that he could make, he made the best choice for his football career by going to Salzburg because he's playing, he's playing in a team that, that wants to dominate the games. But he is also playing a little bit in a, in a physical way. So he needs to continue his development at a young age. I think they made the right choice and that he now comes at a stage in his football career that the next step should come
as an as an academy director because you are the one that is leading the pat when you got that, that position and you did it in a few clubs. It's, it's I want to speak about coaches, it's difficult and we see it in all football. We brought Castell Lega, we brought Caster. There are not many coaches who are the protagonist who knows how to dominate the game and how to lead the game and how to be the one with
the possession and how to do the build up. And when you came to Cait Aviv Academy, did you recognize that the coaches that you have in, in the academy knows how to do it or they are more the one that's reacting to the game.
Um Well, my, my, my impression of, of the coaches before I started to work at Maccabi Tel Aviv, I was, uh, let's say, six months before that, I finished the job in Kazakhstan. I was invited by, uh, by Jordy and Martin Bain at that time to, to give my view on, on the academy. So I, I spent a few days at the Maccabi Tel Aviv Academy at that time and gave my findings to, uh, to, to the management of, of the club at that time.
Um I think that a lot of coaches were doing their own thing and, and one coach is influenced by the first team coach, another coach is influenced by youtube. Another coach thinks that he is the pep Guardiola of the under 15. So you have too much uh of own ideas. And I think to what I said, also to develop players, you need a philosophy for a few seasons to be sure that it comes out and also to be sure
what his best position will be. Um And I think that that is one of the things that I noticed that uh some coaches had their own idea about how to play football, which was not always beneficial or for the long term or for the players
and especially not for the club. So I think that if you analyze clubs that's who let's say have been known to develop players, speaking about Ajax, speaking about Barcelona, speaking about Manchester United for a long period, speaking about some of the Eastern European clubs is that, that are the examples that you need to take a look at? Ok. How much time did they take to develop these players? Uh, did the coach or an academy coach have his own idea or was there
one idea of developing the players? And this is something that, uh is difficult for coaches that are not, let's say, from a leading football country to accept that somebody comes in, walks in a foreigner to tell them what to do. And a, yeah, this is, this is something that, uh, that I believe strongly and, and which also let's say, made me successful in developing academies and developing teams for a longer period.
I must say that I really like your way of football, the 4 to 3 and the rotation in the middle and that you have two players wide on the line. And uh the way as you see football just, I wanna have, uh one question that I, I want to know like, why do you prefer from what I know? Like the wing girls with the, with the, with the foot
if you want an honest and I think it's a stupid question. Stupid question. Yes, I know that he uh started this on, uh, on, uh the, the, the, what is it Twitter or whatever? You are so funny in this, that if I put Cohen on the left and Eduardo on the right, then why is it like that? Why not? If I have a striker like Pica, that is also good with the head? Do I expect go ahead to give me a cross with the right foot from the, from the
O Eduardo. So that's one the second is, is, is that the style of football that at some moments you want to play is, is deciding for me 433 is deciding play with one controlling midfielder or with two is a choice. I make it a choice that also an opponent forces you to make uh to play with left footed or right footed. Opposite is a choice that you make. The funny thing is that this question never comes when I play with Coenen and Jos to left foot at once.
It doesn't come when I play with two right foot once. I'm not saying
this about it. No, no,
no. But I mean, I mean that the choice of wingers depends on what you, how you want to play. Do you want crosses for pr or do you want short combinations with Eduardo or with Alo? No, have them
both. If you have like the wing back or the full back, he can make the course. This is the that can shoot,
this is, this is a choice of tactics. It doesn't, it doesn't come from the fact that I have a left footed or a right footed on the wing. It's the style of play that you want to do. The overlap will come with the right footed player or with the left footed player. So that means also that uh the cross gives me two opportunities from the right footed winger or the left footed winger or from the one that makes the overlap. But you don't have
if, if them both, like if there are two left foot on the left side, ok. So you can't, they can't like shoot to go from that, that,
that is your choice as a co and this is my choice. And this is, these are the things that, that, that are
not the reason was because you, you, you, you wanted the crosses to, this is the old,
not the parents take, for example, uh the first month that I did when that we played by sheer for the Super Cup. Blackman scored a goal because of a good action of Eduardo until the end and him being able to give the cross with the right foot, a left footed player would have not given me this, a left footed player under pressure on the right side can never deliver a good cross.
He will always control the ball. So a defender is always uh if he reads the moment, well, he can always wait for that moment that he will control the ball and then find the ball or find the moment to tackle, um its choices, it's a style of play. It is something that one season, let's say Guardiola plays with opposite winger the other season, he plays with the left footed on the left and the right on the right. It is choices. It is any choices. It is choices that coaches make. Yeah, but
when it happened, I don't remember when Guardiola played with some winger on the right foot in the right side and the left foot on the, on the left side, I don't remember something like this, but
go, go check it with Sterling or if it's with man or if it's with grill or if it's with like on the opposite side, they are not always like
sometimes like for on the left side, he put him now, but it's not like us one side, he put like with the other with the opposite side in one side, if it's for sure, like or on the right or on the left, he put like opposite for sure.
And for me, honestly, I don't care, I don't care. It's the, it's the choice that you make. It's the availability of players and it's a moment in developing your team that is there. It's an opportunity and I don't see it as an extra what
you prefer. This is, it's true that you prefer that the strong foot on the, on the, on the side that if there are, if I'm right, strong foot on the line you prefer me on the right?
No, this is not correct. OK, because in, in, in Zoya, I played with opposite. I played with same size, same side, I play with opposite. I play the chapter the same, it's everywhere, the same discussion in a way of uh and, and part comes how the player grew up, did he grow up on the right side or did he grow up on the left? So the choice, the
choice for the
discussion in, in, in a player is sometimes because simply he played for four years in that position. And now coach tells him to play on the other
side. What I'm saying, what I tried to say in the start when you say it's a stupid question when I spoke with like coaches that was like coaching the new Maha Aviv in the yard development. So they told me that if I want to put like my wing, if he was like in the right foot, if I want to put him on the left side, so you said, tell them no, only on the right. So this is why
this question, but this is, this is part of a bigger plan. This is the one because at the end, at the end, they were allowed to change sides to let players change side, to give the signal to the players, to change side. If a player is not, let's say giving his best or looking unhappy or he has some pit bull that's killing him on that side. Ok. Go 5, 10 minutes to the other side,
come back into the game. And uh, starting, let's say if we speak about football development for me, there are certain things players coaches need to do. And that means also that there is no other option. That means also that not only the player will be, let's say brainwashed. Also the culture will be brainwashed for his feeling. Um But it is part of the bigger
picture that I want. First one philosophy to be inside everybody's head before I started at maccabi Tel Aviv without one training session, without one moment of them showing me something. I told them this is the way you are going to play. This is the way you are going to train, everybody is going to do it. You're the coach of under eight, you do it like this, you're the coach of under 19, you do it like this and this, this is the way I think to start. And that means that ok, I don't, I don't,
I don't need to be the popular guy. I'm not here to be the guy. And that means also that I have to stop people from doing their own thing. And to get in that direction, you need to be, uh you need to be ready to lose people and I lost coaches. And I know that when you start to develop players and the philosophy you will lose people, you will lose players, you should never be afraid of that because the next one is waiting or the next one is waiting to
be developed. So that is something that is part of my philosophy that I like to develop. Not only players, uh I like to develop a philosophy that is there for the club. And that guarantees, let's say players for the first team. But it also more or less gives opportunities for coaches to grow into professional football coaches. And some like to be a specialist in under 15, some like to be in under 19 and some have the ambitions to, to go into adult football.
And this is something they will find out. But one thing will always stay is that the coaches that, that, that grow up in a philosophy like that for, for, for their personal philosophy, go in the same direction, go in the same direction of, of developing football in believing in it. It stays with people because it's an organized structured way of, of looking at football, which is assisting you and making life easy, not life
difficult. I just, I must say that you benefit a lot from, from your philosophy also for winger because they like they know how to go forward if they, if they, if they have like the strong foot on the line. So there there a possibility to go forward if you are in the oppo opposite side, they try with the technique, like to get into the middle. OK. So it's better to, um, uh, for the game, like
if you want to take it forward. But the creativity, it's like, uh, the, it's, you don't think like, uh, you lose something from this, from the, from the windows. You don't think that they lo lose something or all the things that they on, one on one, the dribbles everything.
No, I don't think so because uh I'm not looking at the point of view that from the 25 players in a group, let's say in a youth team, 25 are talented, I think in every group. And this is something I took from a long time. My aim as an academy director is to deliver 4 to 8 talent, talent and um for at the end for the head coach and the sport director to make the choice which one we keep, which one goes out, which one? Uh we, we can sell
and this is the way I look at it. So the two players that are overly talented like the gloss or uh Vivo or Tuman, they will find their way, but they will benefit from the discipline and the demands that they have every day. Uh players like like uh or a Vivo or needs or shaka, they benefit also from putting their energy into a system and knowing my teammates are responsible for certain parts also, instead of going all over the place and with
the academic discussion behind us, uh we just another two questions about it. Um You had a strong view regarding what you allow your players during the contract uh discussions and you lost talented guys because of that guys that wanted a release to Europe. Basically a poll took you at that time. It was Lemkin but you just came, it was also Senio, it was ta abed, I think on that same uh same discussion. Maybe I don't remember the
story was already gone before me. OK?
But, but you lost some guys on that or I think they took you some guys because of that. When you look back on that retrospect, do you think it was still the right decision to insist on them not getting the release close to Europe?
Uh Yes, there are two things for that. First of all, I think that Maccabi Tel Aviv puts a lot of money in the academy. So that means also that Maccabi Tel Aviv is taking charge of the development of uh of, of let's say the sun. That means also that uh before, before I came because that is one of the things I try to uh reduce or to take out is that parents need to pay because if you pay, you have a feeling that you are in charge of your son's career because I
pay you to develop my son. So that means that I need to get something back. So that more or less was one of the things that changed directly is that from, from a certain age you don't, players are not paying anymore. Macabi Tel Aviv takes charge, you train extra, you get extra coaches, you don't uh uh you only have to come, you only have to show up. Um That's one the second thing that you take away also directly is the feeling of, of parents thinking they are in charge of their son's career.
The play is mentioned by you for me, they were not on the list of top talents. So being being let's say, evaluated as not being a top talent, my advice to a club is differently worth it or not worth it. I think that salaries shoot up to be 18 years old should not be important because you are willing to develop my remark to parents was always why you don't ask me why my son doesn't train extra. Why parents hire a psychologist? Why parents hire a fitness coach?
Why parents hire a technical coach? Why parents uh need to hire a mathematics teacher extra or something? Why you don't demand this from me? You want my son to play football eight times in the week, make sure that all these things are arranged and then you have him the age of 15 in the ruling in Israeli football is an age where some of the parents go crazy speaking about. Ok, my son football is finished football becomes business. I want this amount
for my son and I want the contract, ok? If you then confront them with your son is not a talented player, so we are not going to pay you money, but he can continue his development within the club. And if he does well in one year, two years and we want him to offer a contract, we will get back to you and some parents try also to play the, the, the the how to say it training in a foreign academy. Yeah, I'm sorry. But if a club put so much money in an academy, it is a very unpolite question
to ask for your son to train somewhere else. But this is a deal
breaker because think
that why is it a deal breaker in Israel? It's a deal
only in Israel. But what I want to ask, like you prefer to lose them all this kind of talented and to another club in Israel.
I'm sorry, I don't care. But
in this thing, you said something else, you said that in those moments when there was the age of 15, you didn't saw them as top talent. The names dimension wasn't
a is a different story. He was injured, he broke his leg, he was injured for six months and we just simply told him, listen, get fit soon, first play in the under 16, we will get back the moment that you are playing. Ok? If then the parents think, ok, I'm sorry, my son broke his leg. Thank you very much for the medical care. But we go to another club. It's something else. It's their decision. It has nothing to do with giving them the money.
It's purely a point of view of football development. You have been injured for a long period. Show us that you are fit again and we get back on the table and it was about
money because I know that didn't like bring them money to go to a play, a board like to play for free.
That is maybe what they tell you. But I, what I'm telling was part of it. That means that, that you are not informed correctly because the simple fact was he broke his leg before. No,
I'm saying about s and Lemkin.
Ok. But listen, but with all these names so we can speak about names. The point of view of parents is my son turns 15. You need to give me money. If not, I go. Ok. Yeah, I'm sorry if I don't think at that moment that and I'm responsible for it to advise the club not to do it, then I have my reasons for that. And I don't think I'm wrong in this way. That's,
that's, that's only because the under 15 rule in Israel. I mean it wouldn't happen in
be no, but the question would not come in pay because because the the compensation starts at 12 years old. So to pay and any amount is different if you need to pay after four years of, let's say maha T Aviv $100,000 you think he will even call? No, because he knows he will not get $100,000. So simply the ruling uh is, is, is creating in part of the parents uh even in the not talented parents and a moment where they think, OK, my son can get some money.
OK. Do you, do you have any regret on, on your time? On the? No, no,
no, no, not one in this case, uh players come and go. I think that at all times, Maccabi Tel Aviv had talented players to reach the first team. Uh some talent, some generations are more talented, but I think that's why I called the number 4 to 8 talented players to deliver. Uh I think this should always be possible to come from uh from under 19 and even better in a solution of an under 21 team. You should make it possible to have 4 to 8 talented players to make the squad and some of them
to make the 1st 11. I
want to take you back to the 2020. It's the, it's the COVID uh time you took the team to the training uh training camp in Jerusalem if I remember correctly. And then uh uh G Donis came to be the head coach things didn't work out. You took the job uh near theem. Then came the amazing run at that point for you. When you saw the opportunity to become the coach of Maccabi Tel Aviv, did you thought it will be your direction for the next years or? So,
let's say like this the first, what was it? We started, I think around 20th on a Monday until the beginning of August. I think we finalized the two State Cup matches at that time. The Super Cup, the Super Cup was on two games at that time against Beersheba. And, uh, at that time, Barack and me, we, we had some talks with different, uh, coaches and more or less. We were not joking but looking at, ok, what will happen? We have only a few days left and it's ok bringing candidates to the owner,
um, for them to decide. And Barack looked at me and said, listen, Patrick, if it goes wrong, you need to start the season because then you are the only one candidate that we have for us to start the season. Uh, can we offer this? I said, listen, if this is the only way, of course, I do it, I'm, I'm here. I know the players. I know, uh, what they have done. I said, but you have to imagine that I want to do it my way. So don't tell me what to do or
tell me to play with five or whatever. I said, I'm not doing it because I saw it as an opportunity to show the academy coaches what we are doing for this whole period in the academy can work on the first team. We'll work in the first team also because this is the way you speak with coaches and the way to, to show them that it's possible. So this is what we were doing.
Um, ok, there was no coaching stuff. So at that time, I said, ok, then the two coaches, then the 19 head coach and I'm the 17 head coach at that time, only David and a, as I said, you guys will assist me and, uh, more or less, we decided this on a Sunday and a Monday we needed to start. Um, so we started and, uh, ok, you, you, you meet the team, everybody knows. Of course, yes, it's for the moment until, uh, head coach is coming. And I explained also at that time, I said, I'm
here to make you fit for the season. And I have my ideas and some of them, of course, had our younger brothers in the, in the team, so they knew what, what could happen or which direction it would go. And we started to work from the first day with, with playing football and playing a different style of football because that was also, uh, I told him also that time and I also said it here and the, the coaches in the IFA, I said I'm not a fan of five.
I will play from 433. Whatever happens within the 433 is a possibility. I said done by you or done by, by, by my decisions. And, uh we started to work and I tried to, to implement all the things we were doing in the academy from, from the team sessions to align training sessions to work individually and, and to do more or less in the com combination with uh you sign on the physical coach to make sure that the team would be ready for when the coach was coming
and you won the Super Cup. We, we, well, the most important thing for me was that we changed the style of football within one month because we, we try to press, we tried to play higher and we
tried to, even though it was a champion team. Yes,
but it was also a team that played more from defense than, than from dominating with uh with attacking football or with high press. So this is something that we did in the academy and what I wanted to try to do in the first day, that was the intention, it was not the intention to stay the head coach for a longer period because otherwise they could have made the decision directly, more or less you
knew from the get go that eventually there will be a
because I was involved in, in in the, in the interviews with, with different, no, you cannot say this. No because at the end, Barack and I spoke with the, with the candidates and at the end it's is the owner and this representative to
give a good on,
we checked, let's say the things B and I agreed on football needs to come from 433. We want to play an attacking style of football. We want to implement younger players was much, much
more fit to ma than what I can
say. So this, this was our intention and we spoke with different ones and at the end, people need to enjoy to take the decision about you.
Enjoy the three months. No, no what we do. I want to ask you if you enjoy to be a coach of the first team more than to be in control of the art academy.
What let's say at, at after a few years. No, it's not about what you prefer. After a few years being an academy director, you want also to develop and make your next step. That step for me was to be together with Barack and to mentor Barack also a little bit and ok, this is the way you develop players or you develop coaches and um and to make sure that we, we grow the club further and also to bring more the the academy and closer
to uh to the first day. And this was something that was interesting for me without, right, because then you have to think about the next step for me would be or to be sport director. And, and I never closed the door because I took the, the pro license in Ukraine in 2009 with the intention to help the club to get a better evaluation as an academy. But also for me to take the opportunity that if somebody opens the door to evaluate if it's possible
and, and Donny started the season, he did well on Europe. Uh Then the league started, it was a mess. We saw it. Uh Even though the result in the beginning was a little bit shaky. We saw that it is not like something that uh we didn't see a pat of football from, from Donny. So he, he got dismissed and you got the job. But I want to ask you about because
you haven't comment on that. I think since you left Maccabi Tel Aviv, when Donny left Maccabi Tel Aviv, he said on an interview that he felt that you and Barack are pushing him outside of the club. So you will take the job as the head coach. That was an interview that he gave to Ye Tuchman at that time. Um I want to hear your version to that uh to that story.
Um No, uh we at that time because let's say we were part of the search for, for a candidate. Uh We, we gave it to the management. And after that, our job was to, to assist him in getting the best opportunity and so on because my, my job was not to follow the first team in all activities. That was Bak's part in, let's say, in the football department that Maccabi Tel Aviv created. So we were together at some moments, we were evaluating our situation. What we wanted. Are we going in the direction?
Uh Simple thing, are we playing 4, 33 or 532? So these are the things that you, that you evaluate, which is not done by, by us. And as I said before, uh to start the season, as a coach was for me an opportunity to show the academy coaches if you ever come to a first team or you get an opportunity, it doesn't matter what you do, you can do the same. It is how you bring it and how you explain it. Um So in that period, we just shared our opinion also with, with him but was close to the players.
He came from that group so he could share the feeling of, of players with, uh with the coach and, and this, this is merely what we did so
interpreted it like you are trying to push him out when you, when you told him the players
put himself out, I think. Well, what you say is correct is, is international campaign, let's say was good. And um but it didn't match with the, with the league. Um And it is luck in the, in the COVID period was only one game each round. So you make quicker success if you draw until the, if you make a good draw. Yeah, then, uh so yeah,
so you took the job, you won the cup. Is this the best moment for you as a coach, the cup or not?
Well, well, I, I must say that the best feeling from, from that period was the winning of the games and the winning of the games with different lineups because more or less if, if candle played or Geralda, it was no different. David Zada or Sabo it and this was more or less, uh coming from the, from the tight schedule 34 days. And at that time, the group was with the right quality of being able to still play at a high level with different types of players.
And that was the biggest pleasure because there you could see that working every day with the team, uh and players more or less flipping the coin. Will I play tomorrow or not? On a Friday was giving a lot of motivation and a lot of good feeling within the team that everybody was part of it. I
must say something. It's interesting that you are saying this because also when you was like on the academy for you, there is never like 1st 1st 11 and that's it always, you really care about also the other players and then there is no not substitution players in the first team. You, you take care of it. Like for everyone you want to play in you, you didn't want to lose anyone
on the youth academy. I think up to uh to under 17, you cannot demand every week to play with the same 11 years, I think. Yes, under 17. Um I look at it from 16 years old, you can make your debut in the first team. There are players that could be ready. Ok? In Israel, I think it's less than in Europe, but you should be ready. So there a coach has a little bit more opportunity to play the 1st 11 and more often, but still substitutions have to be done.
Yeah, I remember at my discussions with at that time or about a player of a central defender, tall guy. You have youth players that if you are close to 2 m and you have to play against 1 m, 50 players, sometimes you can look bad. But if you play against 181 190 you look good. So I wanted to uh to show or that the players should have more uh more opportunity to play. And he looked at me. I said, ok, you don't
believe me. Ok, send them to me. So that was on the 19th to first off as soon he made his debut in the whole group of total, uh, the total cup. And I showed him and I spoke with him after I said, oh, you have to trust more in, in qualities of players and sometimes to look beyond what you see on the field, you have to look at the qualities
and, uh, these are sometimes moments for coaches to, to understand. Yeah, I have to trust one player more or I have to trust my team more, um, to, to, to that they are able to deliver a higher quality because playing, let's say young in, in by the Tel Aviv or playing with under 19 against second division, with under 17 against the under 19 is part of the development and part of the trust that the coach gets in his players.
I will take you now for the summer of, uh, after the winning the cup, you got the appointment as the, as the head coach regularly, not as an intern. And, uh, it was after a good finish to the season even though it ended without the championship. But the gap was bigger when you came.
Um, and you spoke about the Twitter before I got at that summer, a lot of feedback from players inside of a dressing room saying like waving some red flags that this won't work that if Patrick stays the head coach, we will not succeed. And most of the complaint wasn't about your football style or something like that. It was on the personal level. Some of them felt that you are treating them as they are still in the youth in terms of maybe
being too stiff with them. Uh Maybe, maybe, I don't know something about the dynamic group wasn't working and they raised that red flag very on before even training camp. It resulted at the end by, you know what happened. Uh The team didn't succeed many things. It was because of the, the, the poor situation in the, in the dressing room. And I was the one writing a lot about it uh as you know, uh and we didn't have, I think even once your reaction to that, your comments to that. Well,
first of all, um um let's say like that, I think uh uh a player of a professional team is, is paid to play football and part of a top club means also that you have to do what is asked, I believe that players are part of a team but also have to show their qualities. And I think that the players without asking who were players that are playing less. Uh because this is the way this is the way
you get your information. It's not from the ones that are playing because the, the these are the ones that get the attention and more or less deserve the attention and deserve to play. You mentioned the name of your uh colleague, journalist. Uh um He told me once that for you guys, it's only our festival festival of ban that is giving you
the information. So I know that it will come and I know from which players it will be and uh for me or not to speak to them or to being stiff or it's for me, it's, it's a reason that um I cannot do a lot with because they don't come to me so to speak after is, is, is for me not polite or it doesn't help me to comment on players. It doesn't help me because uh I I will not change the player and
the player will not change me. And that I'm uh how to say it strong or demanding or, or strong in my opinion. I don't think so that I'm that strong that that players cannot perform. I think a player needs to look at himself. Do I give everything that I can? And that is something that uh
no, but there were other players that did spoke by their name. One of them was Tim. He said that you were doing him wrong and you didn't respect him and that you froze him and
listen, I think that uh you mentioned a player that that should be lucky that I keep quiet. Why is that? Well, let's let me stay quiet because I don't think that I don't think that um let's say he could, we pushed him in certain situations because you want more out of a player. And I think he grew up in a generation that they decided what to do on the field. And I'm not from that generation. I think that you have a responsibility and uh pushing a player to be in a position to score, I
think should benefit him. And this was more or less situations where uh you need to push players and I'm not there to, to be friendly, I'm sorry. And this and mentioning this name, yeah, I, I don't have nothing to say to it. It says all by itself the point of, of his career
in your eyes. What were the reasons for you not succeeding at the following season after, after the first six months? Um you were at the end of the day, 10 months overall in, in that job, six of them was really good. The next four months wasn't.
And this, I don't agree with you. I will tell you why. I don't agree. First of all, we were successful in Europe, uh still doing a lot of good things pushing. Um I don't think that the team was, let's say ready to perform that well, on both levels.
I also think that a lot of clubs and owners decide too quickly if something is not going well, having the experience myself as a coach by taking the team in a, in a position that was not leading, but bringing it back and, and still regretting not to take the championship also because that was still possible, but we lost it in the game in Kona where we got the red card
and we lost the game. If we didn't get the red card with TB, we finished the game, we win the game, we would still be on, on the way to have, let's say the double. Um, so I think that a little bit more time in correcting, um, correcting the situation in the league would have been, would have been the best because this, this is what, what I believe in and which is what I think would be possible.
But you haven't that the atmosphere surrounding is not the one that you can,
you have. Uh this is what at that time we spoke about, we had, let's say one month until the next window to clean up. And uh
so that was your plan
if that was the, the thought and uh, ok, any player that didn't perform or felt that he needed to move out, you had an opportunity to, to let's say refresh the group. Um Yeah, I think that that uh a little bit more time, a few weeks more would have been easy because if I look at facts, I think the coach that finished the season, I think I was on the second position with, uh with one point more or one point less finished up.
And then when I went out, you understand? So this, these are things that I must
say that uh you lost against Macabe natanya in Natanya Stadium. And uh I was there and when I saw Barack and Shaon leaving from the stadium, I saw the faces, it was clear for me that uh it, it will come to an end now that they will not wait until uh January. So in that, in that discussion with them,
did you
expect you to do different? I don't know.
No, I, I don't know what at that time these two persons could have told me to do differently, one without any football background and one just starting from, let's say, changing his point of view as a player to, to a manager. Um Well, we, that game, we, we lost, we should have scored 234 goals in the first half. We, we
outplayed them, we didn't score enough. We catch, go in the second half and, and uh natanya with the fans, get the enthusiasm into the team and uh you totally lose control and that is something that, uh of course, it cannot happen, it will happen in, in any coaching career. But at that time, you, you should have finished the game already in the first half.
So you didn't get any feedback from Barack telling you, listen, let's try to do something else and, and bring back this team together. It wasn't any discussion regarding that at that time.
No, I don't remember any discussion that, that, that would lead to, let's say a situation of not being able to work together anymore. No,
let's speak about uh in Zoya. Um How do you sum up your time in, in Ukraine? Totally.
Um after, after Maccabi, uh we, we, I had some time I saw a lot of, let's say good contacts in, in Ukraine. Uh Ukraine is like our country where you still can develop football and, and teams, a country that started because of the war and the total football situation changed. All foreigners left a lot of clubs uh having to, to use academy players or or 1st 1st division players or second division players to create teams to still participate.
Um Zoya opportunity came at the moment that there was some interest from other club, but it was the most concrete one and the one where I knew the club as being a club that always wanted to or was able to play in, in Europe at that time, they also had difficulties making the team.
So we started with a lot of young players, a lot of players that let's say played in the previous seasons, 8 to 10 games, maybe in other clubs, but had the talent coming over from the Namo Kev Academy or from Shaktar Academy. So it was an interesting uh start. I also there, it was a little bit like I had one month to prepare them for the qualification for uh for Europe and like like similar style of working as the one month in, in Macabe to do it. We
need to change the style quick. We need to make it a team of, of a group of players that never play together or come from the under 19 or come from reserve teams and that, that connected and like uh some, some difficulties in, in scoring goals, in creating a lot of opportunities that didn't work out in the, in the, in the
first part of the season. And we were, let's say on the run of maybe going into the winter break for the first position, but making two draws brings us back to the third position. But going into the winter break with a lot of positive feelings like if we can connect, let's say our defense a little bit better to not giving uh goals away. We have an opportunity to score more goals and, and to, to get back to stay in the race
worked out well. We did the preseason, we had some difficulties in the second preseason by having an incident on the training field of a player receiving a heart attack. So more or less all the positive that you were building drops a little bit. A lot of team feeling came inside because of this incident. We start the leak at that time. We also brought Eduardo Guerrero so we
knew that the strike that we were missing. We, we would have now um you came, I think four days before the start of the first game. Um We start the game, we are 20 down after 20 minutes. We come at the half time. We go and we speak a little bit direct to the players that everything we did and what we showed in the first part of the season we need to do. Now we get back into the game assist of Eduardo 2122 and we make 32 before the end of the game
and we start also there a very positive run. We had 15 games in the second part of the season with only two losses. So we secured the third position making it possible for Zoya to even participate in the Europa League. And um and if they would lose, they would be automatically in the group stage of conference. So that was a good position for the club with at that time, an extra income from UEFA would be welcome in the, in the time of war.
Um I went with the intention to do well knowing that the club would do well or give me the opportunity to do well to see if I maybe can make the other clubs interested in uh in me as a, as a coach. We did well, there was some interest and, and at the end, Shaktar asked if, if, if I was, was interested, a new, a new one
for before we need to say that
I worked for Shakta before. So I was an older period that I was not
at, but they knew you.
The new Patrick. Yes. The head coach Patrick,
the old Patrick,
not the, not the old Patrick. Yeah. So, um yeah, from, from one company to another Shaktar knowing Shakta from, let's say the good period because also they had to make a lot of changes because of the war. A lot of talented Brazilians left used the UEFA ruling to get out and they also needed to start a new with the younger team, younger Ukrainians, talented Ukrainians after they
became champion. Also, they, I wanted to change the style of football still to continue with bringing in younger players and also younger players from scouting to. Uh so we started on the job training camp in Holland the first two weeks because of the, the under 21 championship and uh
qualification games for the main national team. Uh After two weeks, I had only the, the full group which was more or less one week before the start of the league because there was only a three week preparation until the first official game in the in the league. Um They're also, and like we discussed about Mugabe, OK, some crest changing the style, bringing in some players
also there. I started with OK guys, this is the way I want to play and we have enough quality to, to bring it to dominate the 19 game 90 minutes in the game, in attacking or defending. But we need to deliver quality from that point of view. I also train because I want everybody to be fit enough to, to be dominating the game and also in the in, in Europe because yeah, Champions League is a different story.
We start, ok. In the league, we take some points, we dominate parts of the game, but we are not how to say dominating the 90 minutes as I would like to see had some injuries in preseason of, of players that, that are important for the team. They are young, but they already had some seasons in professional football. Um Some of the transfers didn't work out as we planned. So a different quality of players came younger. Um Some of them came also coming also from a different background.
So a different training background. Um So yeah, there were some difficulties but we took our points. We were, let's say in the first position of the league still we lost already. Let's say some points that we shouldn't have lost. Um starting the Champions League in the League from the, from the first position, the first Champions League game against Porto, uh not in Ukraine but playing the games in, in Hamburg, in Germany. So meaning that the traveling for every game continues um
very good team to play. So as a coach, you try to eliminate as much as possible, the the the the good qualities of the team. We, we lose the game but we showed some opportunities for us to score on 11. We make two mistakes. We give them an opportunity to score another two goals. And in the second half, we had one or two chances extra to score.
Um continuing in the league come the second Champions League game against an, we start, we start bad in a way that we don't show the aggression that we need it at half time. You try to correct and to new one and we in the 32 with a little bit luck because they get a penalty in the 93rd minutes which uh they don't score. So we take the first point in, in the group states
from two games and more or less after that. Uh It starts in a way that uh I get some, I have my ideas of continuing of developing players go to the national team after the and weapon game. Uh The club was able to move the league game to gain some extra rest. We have a friendly game. I planned a friendly game for the players that uh that are not part of the national team. We play the game, we win, we have some difficulties 10 minutes in the beginning of it's a friendly game.
We end with uh seven players of the under 19 in the second half. So I think a good job and the next day the general director called me. He said, listen, the president didn't like the friendly game. So, uh, but you want the friendly game, but you have to understand that this is not the reason, like in, in the way the team played or the team performed, he
sacked you after a friendly game
more or less. Uh, this was, uh, this was the, this was what usual, this is what, what they told to me.
But what, what is the real reason in your eyes?
The real reason? Yeah, I think I don't, I shouldn't share. But um, ok, this, this ends and you start the season knowing that there are more demands. You also start the season where you think, ok, we need to build something together and this is something that at the end wasn't
first place in the league when you got fired and now they are not first place,
they are first now they, they had some games to from this weekend.
They first maybe I think before they were second. Yeah. Ok.
So, um and end of the story. So let's say a second spell of
coach. It's not, it's not how good you are. There is also one other things,
you have a lot of things in a club like that, but that is around the team that is not directly happening on the field
on a successful period when he left. Mabe. Mabe wasn't reaching the goals that he should have been. That's different.
It's, it's, it's the same for me. It feels in the, in the, in the same because more or less you have to see through things. And if you're doing well, uh, you're on the way, uh, in, in the point of view of, let's say Macabe, the results in Europe, you would be first or second. That was the, the direction
we were going in that group. And in the league, I still think that the points to overcome and to get back in the door top as a Maccabi Tel Aviv, you always have because you have a more quality group um in the way of uh of Shakhtar, I, I look at it in a similar way, you're starting something which uh will go with ups and downs. If you need to change things, it will go with ups and downs.
If the things around it are in the in the, let's say the noses are in the same direction because we want to achieve the same, then you will achieve it. As soon as somebody is interfering, it becomes a different. Uh So
you have the next few months to yourself. Um What is your next destination? What do you want to, to, to find yourself now as a coach as academy sport? No,
II I am, let's say at the moment, still focusing on continuing the, the coaching career, the head coach, there are some showing some interest. Now, as I said before, the contract with the Shakta will officially end in, in one month. So that gives all opportunities for me to, to continue anything that comes now that gives me similar circumstances. I, I,
I'm ready to start. I spend my time wisely in, in visiting clubs and watching training sessions and games to uh to add some interesting things to your uh personal philosophy in my case. Was
it correct that the last few months you got approaches from Poti Aviv? And
I have no, no, no, no,
nothing. No. Ok. Uh What do you talk about the decision of Barack to become a head coach of Beal?
Well, I think that, uh, it's what he wants. So I think that, uh, that he needs to start now. Um So, yeah,
you felt it, you felt it when you, when you were the coach of m, you felt that you want to be the coach something?
No, no, no, not directly. No, we spoke about it. I think a few months ago he said more or less. Ok, what do you think? I should, I should do, should I continue as a director or as a coach? And I said, listen, if, if you feel that you can want to influence the whole club, you need to be the director. If you want to work with players, then, ok, you need to start finding out and
as you, as you know, Barack, you think that you're gonna succeed in Jerusalem.
Well, he always told me he's the king of Jerusalem. So uh after his playing career, so I think that I think
is the king but
the crown prince, but I think that uh his knowledge and I don't want to, let's say, give myself credit, but that he saw, ok, this is what is needed to organize a club, an academy or a first team that he knows what to do. Ok? Now he needs to get the chance and, and to take the chance and uh knowing Barak, he wants to be the best. He wants to be very ambitious and, and playing in a certain style of football. But OK, I advise him to take the time and to be smart in it,
you surprised that he didn't take the job after I left when, before they
brought
in, I think in
terms of, I would look at the challenges bigger and invited Jerusalem to create something with a huge potential. Still as a club,
I mentioned the name of Ivi. I think also he said something about you a few maybe one year ago or two years ago. Also in an interview that you are the only one he didn't spoke with at, at his time in the capital Aviv and he felt that you are not giving him respect. Do you know what he meant when he said no, I don't
think
I know you didn't have any problem with
no, why I should have a problem with him if he was not in touch with me and I was not in touch with him then. Ok, the I think that uh I remember that I was invited to a dinner when Ben Mansford started and then he started as a coach that I was part of it so that we met uh me as an academy director to be part. And at the moment that that a lot of young players like Ken and Glass and, and so p came back
from all the long period. So to say so I think that uh I visited the first team games, I cannot remember that he visited an under 19 game or any youth game that was 100 m away. So I think if he says that we didn't speak, ok, maybe look at yourself and then then maybe take the interest and take it to art. Maybe I should show some interest. I think that uh that's something I try to do as a, as a head coach is, is always to show some interest in, in an under 19 or the under 17. I knew
all the teams. I knew the schedule. Yes, for me, it's easy to cross the road and speaking to the coaches because more or less you develop them or you hire them. But I think also in, in Zoya and instructor, I try to be interested in uh in what's happening and people know my background. So they ask me also questions or ask me to be uh to be like an advisor. And in Zoya, it was like that Zoya only had an under 19 and they
had an academy playing on a different location. But more or less the under 19 was the only team where I as a coach could take players from. So you try to watch the training sessions, you try to watch because they trained at the same facility. So you try to have an interest or speak to players, use players in training sessions, use players in, in a friendly game. So yes, this uh this is part of me. I think it needs to be inside. You also as a head coach to show interest in the other side. We
sit here on a, on a Sunday uh on Thursday, Maccabi Aviva won Olympiacos for one we saw in that game in the lineup players that grew up in the academy, the Shaha, of course, Ravi do Perez Kani. Uh we saw coming in from the bench guys like Toja man or Kats, the Vida. That was until he was 15 years old. Um When you see all those Israeli guys, some of them, you know, personally, better than us. And you saw that game, how many of them can play on a Champions league
level team like Oscal? Uh right now, how many of them have that potential to go to those type of teams?
Well, I think that that all of them, let's say that play uh have an interesting position vivo as a left defender, the whole football world is always looking for left defenders. So I think that, that he has that extra and I think that he's developing in a, in a right way uh to get the minutes and to get the games at every level in the, in the national team also,
et cetera. So he gets it at a young age, a lot of experience how he manages it or how they manage him in the in the sessions is most important that he keeps this, let's say high discipline in focusing on being the best in that position. Um Though to Jan, I think that he can be a little bit more, I don't want to say selfish but to be more quickly in scoring the goals because he gets always or he creates always opportunities. So he needs some time. But yeah, he needs to show what do you
think you need to improve on
his game? I think he needs to think less and to finish quicker if I see him go at the goal, I don't see his actions being where am I putting the ball? It's whereas my defender, I need to still make one move. I want him, I would like him to be, let's say more. Taking X as an example when the ball is ready, it's ready to fire and this is what he needs to start doing so that his, his statistics go up because he needs the goals to
be talented is, is nice for a certain period. But now it's time to be effective and to bring the goals and for that, he needs to of course, be in the best position for him possible as a, as a striker. But again, if you have two good strikers, you need to manage it at the thought
you mentioned before on one of your answers that there were some players in the youth that your surprise didn't make it. Can we go into names if you want to go into names? We surprise you that didn't make it to the festive of.
Um Well, I let's say we can, we can only speak about players that that didn't make it but also players that didn't get the chance. I think for example, uh guy Mirai is a player that I personally saw making progress a lot and I think he shows it now in Netanya that he's on the right track to keep developing himself. Um I think um Tel Aviv, after selling Oscar Gloss should have taken a different decision with Berlin, for example, that's now alone in a ha I think he's uh
something specific. He has also something specific in his head, but it's a very good boy, very how to say it, unexpected decisions with the ball and not a lazy boy. So I think that some players should get the chance. But ok, he now has the road to show it through a different way. The second,
the second year with the under 19 was not good for him for all of them, all of them, for all of the team also for all of the, for, also for Bayer and for a lot of them. But in the second year, it was supposed like to go to another place to play, like in, in, in those game. You think,
uh I think that also partly it lays in what happened in the, in the academy. Um But I think that those, that generation of players uh didn't only consist of Oscar Gla I think there, there are some more players in that group that Macabe will benefit from in the future
Claudio Braga was something that you brought to the table or no, it
is, it is related to me. Yes, I suggested Claudia also because I got the request. Uh not only to be the head coach but to continue also to, to look after the football philosophy in the academy. And for that, you need a person that, that let's say follows and follows the plans that were already existing for, for four or five seasons. You didn't follow
them.
He uh after after me leaving more or less things changed and that, that is something that uh that Maccabi should look at by themselves, how to handle that in future situations.
Um who do you think will win the title this season? Moab Haifa.
Um, well, let's say like this, I think they are compatible at the moment. I think it depends also who made the best transfers in the, in the winter period. I think high five after the start with the young coach came back into the race. Uh, both teams, uh, surprised me with the long period. They are in Europe. So for the league, it's good that both of them have the same more or less schedule and with the opportunity so both of them to qualify
for the next round. So that's only top four Israeli football. So I think it will be a race until, until the end. And who do you
think did the best journey of transfer window when you look at the,
I think they did different transfer window. Macabe aimed for the younger players maybe for the long term and I brought in some young foreign player and also some experienced Israeli players. So I think that uh both of them looked at ex ex let's say expanding the squad with quality to, to be able to participate in the, in the two leagues that they are in now in the conference league and in the in the Israeli League,
you always said, and I remember that with, with the that you had the academy director, I think you, you did the first interview with me as the Academy director. You always said, that the Israeli talent is something that is not getting enough attention that we have a lot of talent and we just
need to direct them on a good way. And you see now the level of the Israeli players coming out and you see Makabe Kit and Kali who is a top player, what, what resulted in that change that we are now making more good players from the youth than previous years.
Well, I think that uh that of course the the the younger coach coming from the youth helps Maccabi Haifa to recognize some of the talented players and and to give them the opportunity. This this always helps when a person comes from the academy or knowing the academy players, he will quicker say, listen, we don't need, I can try it with this one.
So uh that, that is uh that is a plus, I think also the performance of the national teams last summer, uh also made people in Israel realize that, yeah, we need to have some more trust in the younger players that we have. So let's hope that that continues. But at the same time, I hope that not only the Israeli Federation continues to create a high level of coaches development, but also that clubs are are starting to pay attention more
to the academies. I still think that Children in Israeli youthful law don't have the right facilities to play football, not enough opportunities to become better. Um Also the extra activities of clubs investing in.
They need to see it. If, if each club would see one player being sold to Europe with the amounts of Daniel per or Oscar Glo, then you are creating your budget for your academy and you are creating your, your aims for your academy because you need only one and to invest on your level in an academy to increase the activities of Children is something that needs to happen. If uh last, last Saturday or yesterday, I watched the under 19 game, I think there needs to be more demands,
there needs to be a higher tempo. There needs to be more intentions to dominate the game for Israeli Children to grow up because yeah, everybody wants everybody that is, let's say involved in Israeli football or supporting or knowing the talent is waiting for the national team to qualify for something. And uh this would be the biggest boost. But if this boost goes to all the owners of the clubs or all the owners of the academies, that is something that should go.
And um because for such a small country, I still think there are a lot of interesting players. We mentioned some of them. Uh I'm looking at Israel as scouting opportunities which players clubs are not using. Is it a player that I still believe in to, to, to make better? And this is something that, that I of course hope that Israel will see it here, you
also prove that we can attract younger guys that can be good players like Eduardo like Poe. So that's another direction that is possible for the Israeli football that we are not using it, I think in most of the teams right now. But you need people that believe in young players and young and young coaches and you need people like this.
Well, I understood that most of the clubs now are not taking a young foreigner because they get certain composition for the federation. And I see it from the point the same as in the, in the first team, a foreign boy brings something extra to a youth team. So it's
Mabe now, we don't have a foreign players in the youth for the second season in a row. So that
no, and I, I think that, uh, let's say Macabe and the scouting of, of the youth show that they are able to find the players because it started with VA G to take him on loan from Apo Jerusalem. Then we, we bring Edoardo, then we bring Parfait with Parfait. We still had another. Bamba was also in that group, but you need to take decisions and Parfait was standing out
the most at that time. Uh, then we had, uh Novato Miros from Tanzania who also added something to youth football played at that time in the, in, uh by the Tel Aviv second division and did the preseason with, uh, with the first team. And so I think that it is an extra opportunity and I don't think you should let it go, um, as a club because of finances because, yeah, maybe it could be more, or maybe the Israeli Federation should, should stimulate it and maybe even increase the second one.
Do you have something more before I would finish it or what, something more to ask? I, um, no, I just want to, to you to succeed and to have a good luck and where wherever you choose the next lab, which any position that you choose and that's it. Thank you. Uh When we are asking an Israeli person or a Jewish person where they come from, you see, we always say, OK, I'm half Moroccan, half Polish. I'm
half Bulgarian, half from Germany. Can we say now after all those years that Van Leuven is uh 15% Israel?
Well, let's say like this, that uh I, I am with pleasure in, in, in the, in Israel. I worked with a lot of pleasure here and a lot of friendly people assisted me in, in being successful and creating also a name for myself here. So, yes, I am. Uh 15%. Yes. Maybe it's maybe more, maybe more.
I have the, I have another question after all of what you got in uh in football, why do you think that you need to improve in yourself
if there is something like this? No, listen, it's uh that's also part of this period to, to, to, to look at yourself. And uh I'm not afraid to listen to people, I'm not afraid to, to get their opinion and to take something from that if I look at myself, but then, then, ok, maybe communication or personal contact could be. But for that, you have also nowadays a much larger stuff. So certain things you leave to your assistance because at the end, they also need to do something. You cannot
do everything by yourself. That's why you, you are the manager, you do everything, you plan everything and you decide everything, but your input comes from your assistants that are with you on the field. And uh uh this, this is something that, that I look at more closely now. And what I like to evaluate is the communication between the, the head coach and his staff, the head coach and the players, but also the assistance
with the players. Ok. Where, where is the head coach, uh really involved in the training session? And for that, I, yeah, I, I travel and I like to see uh the training session. I'm not traveling for exercises. This I can create myself. I'm, I'm traveling to see communication between uh between coaches and players if I uh go to Betty Sevilla and, and you think, ok, they, after the training, they will go inside, they did their job,
they go inside. Ok? One of the players is still unhappy that he doesn't uh that he didn't play or that he didn't participate enough. So I see there a 70 year old Gods Pellegrini with a lot of experience speaking for 20 minutes with the player trying to comfort him, trying to make him believe in his qualities that he gets his chance. So all over the world,
the same situations occur. And also if you didn't speak with the, the, the coach after, because these opportunities you also get because of the clubs that you work for. Uh is that he also explains this is, this is part of it, OK? And still at my level, uh players are not understanding why they don't play and one word is not enough, you need to spend time on it. So this is something that uh it's
even more important than uh tactics, the communication and everything. Sometimes it's important tactic, they like the most. But uh if they listen, yeah, if they listen, if you, if you make them listen can be OK. Uh Patrick, thank you a lot for coming. I wish you all the best and uh we will follow your career of course and see what happens in the next uh few months. OK? Maybe we will see you on the lines in Bloomfield soon. But as an opponent who knows
everything is still open and we will see and the sun is coming. So this is perfect.
Thank you very
much. You're welcome. Thank you?