People often say, well, if it's all this false stuff, why do they have credibility? Why does anyone believe their version of the story? Well, they don't care if you believe their version of the story and while we care about information fratricide and getting our narrative consistent and correct, they do not all of their separate units operate
independently. And if they disprove, even each other's stories, they don't care about that because their goal is not to get the target audience to believe what they're saying. Their goal is to so enough, confusion and uncertainty in the decision space. That people go. Well, I don't know if that's true or not. So I'm not going to do anything about it.
I'm going to sit and wait with Tesla government's Knowledge Management Solutions. You're adding a strategic partner that helps unleash the full power and potential of your institutional information. Let us unpack your data and put your knowledge to work, learn more at Tesla gov.com. Elsie 38, brand.com the Civil Affairs Lifestyle.
Brand a little bit of something for everybody t, shirts, polos shorts, hats Flags, posters for your walls and stickers for everything else items for citizen soldiers of use of kapok and Warrior diplomats at Fort, Bragg alike, Elsie 38 brand.com, it's cool to like, your job. This is our first of two episodes talking with Majors Brian Hancock and Jack gains about the theater information Advantage element.
Enjoy the show. Jack gains is an Army Reserve officer who works as a policy and strategic advisor in the Washington DC area. You also leads a social movement called 46 x, the fight, to perform DOD public affairs. Jack's education includes a master's degree in communication management from the USC Annenberg school for communication and journalism. Major Brian Hancock was the CEO of a small information company. For 16 years.
He enlisted in the US Army in 2005 and went forward to serve the nation in Afghanistan. He's currently the G9 in charge of civil military operations. For the 79th. Theater sustainment command. The second largest military unit in the Department of Defense. Major Hancock is Mos qualified for and has served in intelligence, psychological operations, and civil Affairs as a civilian.
He's the deputy for the Marine Corps, ground Center of Excellence, Advanced Training Department, located, in Twentynine Palms, California. He has been published in the National Federation of advanced Information Services. The military intelligence professionals Bolton small Wars journal. The Pentagon strategic multi-layer assessment in the Civil Affairs, issues papers. This Man possesses bachelor's degrees in political science and
psychology. A master of science in management and National Security and certifications and project management leadership in energy and environmental design and adult learning. Hi, and welcome to the one. See a podcast. My name is John Miguel. Get your host for today's episode and we're joined by two majors talking about the theater information, Advantage element, T IA, e, a quick disclaimer for everyone or marks.
Are those of the presenters? And do not represent the views of the US Army or Department of Defense gentlemen, welcome to the show. Thanks John. It's really great to be here. Appreciate it. Hey John glad to be here. Thank you. Yeah, we're glad to have you on the show to talk about this theater information Advantage, element. We want to talk about why it matters implications for the
military. And I understand the right now, it's an experimental formation that's under review by somebody somewhere and we'll try to get to that later. But first, I want to set the stage for listeners by Being a few things, some terms like convergence information related capabilities in which activities fall under that umbrella of ircs and what Gap in capability. This new approach this theater information Advantage element. RT iae is we may refer to it in
the show. What keep ability Gap is this a new approach trying to fill. First of all the theater information Advantage, element is not a single formation. It's an actual on formation. So, it's all the way up to the co-commander. All the way down to, about the Battalion level, depending on the nature of the mission involved. Your question, has three components to it. John will answer those in turn. The first is, what is what is this idea of convergence?
And how is that new? What is happening to our traditional information related capabilities in this formation? And what gaps could this new experiment information potentially fill for the Department of Defense. So when we talk about convergence, which is at the heart of this new capability is what we're trying to achieve with the T IA e. This actually originated a number of years ago in the intelligence Community.
We were studying something called complex, adaptive systems theory, in complex, adaptive systems an individual agent, such as the head of a power plant, in a city can affect an entire system, say the power system of that City. Simply by pushing a button and turning it off in which case all of the citizens of that City or the Agents of that system will all change their behavior in response. So an agent can change a system and a system can change the
behavior of all of its agents. These are very complicated systems and as we try to attack these systems in our 20 years of coin fights. What we were finding is that when we made an impact with one of our capabilities, He was just not Battlefield significant, we can make a slight gain and then if we roll back, we didn't have a lasting effect on those
systems. So this develop something called the concept of parallel attack where instead of just doing one thing in a system on its own, you make a whole bunch of interrelated efforts doing exact attempting to achieve exactly the same effect simultaneously over time. And that had the potential to move that system. In a sustainable way. Well a few years go by and that evolved into this concept of convergence.
Convergence takes the concept of parallel attack in a complex adaptive system and it adds to it elements of being rapid and continuous integrated in all domains. Also the electromagnetic spectrum and the information environment with the goal of optimizing, the over match against the enemy, through cross-domain synergies and About forms of attack. Now that's the textbook definition from the operational and organizational Concepts.
I Know Jack, you probably have a better way of saying that I'll have it to you. This is why I work with Brian so much as he's beautiful on the technicals and the doctrine. And then I mash it all together and too big in a primordial soup and say, this is what it is. And basically, as I've seen it convergence is the evolution of the siloed approach, like Brian was saying, you know, No. We at first, you know, conflict was managed through a rush of people all on an issue and then
we've become specialized. Now, we're shifting back to removing some of those silos and becoming more unified and convergent in our efforts. And I believe it comes from, you know, people who have deployed and experienced operations in the field because that's where an evolving concept like this would come from, it's different from current policies and that you have a tie. Group that everyone pitches in to get through the mission. Often people are used to that
efficiency in smaller groups. The what this is trying to do is establish it at the command level and remove some of that frustration and bureaucracy from the process. So I suspect that the convergence movement is an attempt to recapture some of the field, operational efficiency, and bring it to a more established command level, right? Thanks for that Jack.
Let's talk a little bit about information, while your capabilities and what's happening with them in the theater information, Advantage element. The new experimental Doctrine is moving away from formations as a siloed capability. So, in the coin fight, where we had an ew section, A psyop Team, a civil Affairs, team of public affairs, team information, operations, military deception, and operational security, operating and training largely independently and then getting together.
Other once, they go to theater in large-scale combat operations at the speed of Modern Warfare, the military's realized that is not going to be an effective approach to achieve the effects that need to be achieved in the compressed time frames that they need to be achieved in especially in dense Urban environments where we suspect we will be fighting future Wars. So what the theater information advantages? Element has done is its D emphasized.
And I are see as an MOS and a single capability and it's now emphasizing something called information, Advantage activities and information Advantage, activities are things that many other formations will participate in not just the traditional information related capabilities.
So, to achieve information, Advantage, activities, you have DOD information network operations, intelligence operations, This operations, integrated joint, special technical operations, cyberspace operations, and others. You could even have maneuver units that through their position posture and profile are achieving an information related
effect. So they're attempting to bring all of these together and synchronize them under a single umbrella in order to achieve information Advantage for Windows of time, that the maneuver Force particularly on offense. I will exploit to achieve the Commander's in state Jack. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yeah, that's that's brilliant.
Brian. And and the thing that I always like to stress with it is, you know, the capabilities individually and combined are important, but it's also how they're applied. That's critical a lot of, you know, current military. Thinking these days is based on one-off events. You know, targets are one-off focused events breach operations, drone strikes, single Item targeting that is narrowly focused and we need to
break through that. We need to get into what's called persistent engagement where we either have a rheostat on our enemy's actions that we can drag their efforts down or open space up. If we want to take advantage of their momentum information, Advantage by definition is
persistent. So whether it's an IO or J-3 Ops person or other element, that's leading the effort the The key is to converge all the capabilities and successes and energies of the different elements together to persistently operate in the contested space and that builds support while stigmatizing, you know, competitors and adversaries. So, in concept, it sounds easy, but in practice, it's much harder to do.
Right? Thanks, Jack. John, let's move on to the your question about gaps and what gaps the T. I am a feel for the military. I want to talk We about to gaps. The first is the gap.
We touched on previously about these separate silos of Excellence, where we have civil Affairs training in one unit in one groups, I often another unit and another group, you know, electronic warfare separate etcetera and then they only get together either at the mobilization side of the reservist or when they're doing a large exercise or deploying if they're in the active component, and what we're finding is the speed of Modern Warfare, that that's just too Too little too
late, especially when you're looking at the increasing number of dynamic targets that you can have in Modern Warfare and in the dense Urban environment. So this breaks down those silos by bringing all of these different elements together in the same formation and they live work. Eat Sleep Train plan work. Oh, plans. Develop branches and sequels refers execute all together and their station. Assistant forward.
So they're doing all those things in the actual environment where they're going to execute so it's a huge leap forward. In terms of how that force is built, men trained plans and execute operations to synergize effects and the second Gap that we all have to talk about. As soon as we talked about anything in the information environment is authorities. Now, traditionally authorities, follow the command.
That is in the region. Usually, Ali under the combatant commander for that area of responsibility and those very widely. Some formations have a fair amount of authority and others have very little but rarely if ever do they have all the immediate Thor? Teas. They need to be effective from day Zero. Well, the theater information Advantage. Element has very broad authorities for all of those things.
Including National Technical assets such as space and And cyber delegated down to it, just like the CJC SI withstanding authorities, they have that from Day. Zero anywhere. They go forward in the rear Etc. So they do not have to go through those traditional lengthy and inefficient approval processes, to achieve the authorities. They need Jack. I know you have some experience with that, especially in public
affairs. You want to talk about that first off to to summarize Brian's point, you know, the ti e finds communicators and Signal platforms and it actually cuts through nine types of silos to focus on the mission. That's cutting nine forms of bureaucracy to get to the effect. And that's that's amazing. And as far as the authorities, most of the time, I see one element, or another getting frustrated because they need specific authorities, complete a mission.
Usually though another element has a similar Authority or capability that can cover the gap. I see this all the time and it kills me because we waste so much time. Trying to gain authorities for one element when another element or organization has that capability and just needs to be asked and then they can get the permission and help. And so we need to get past that. This is where I hope the T iae cuts through and makes
operations more efficient. We'll take a short break and when we come back, we'll continue our conversation with Majors gains and hand cock will be right back after a word from our sponsor. Everywhere. You look, there's a barrage of emails and information. Telling you what everybody has done is doing or plans to do all in excruciating detail, but access is only half the battle.
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See a podcast today, our guests are major Jack gains and Brian Hancock. We're talking about the theater information, Advantage element or t IA e John. I think we could probably spend most of the podcasts unpacking. This, this great question, you asked, but I know your listeners one at want to hear about some of the other items. So if it's okay with you, let's move on to the second question. Yeah let's do that. I really appreciate that gentlemen. I'm it's clear that you're well
versed in this. Like I care a lot about it and it reminds me of two things that come to mind. I grew up born in 79 and I remember this animated show called Voltron. It's kind of like you're fusing together, all these different pieces to make a giant. Voltron that's going to be stronger and more Nimble and more effective and then there was not 11. And what comes to mind for that is the fusion cells, the intelligence Fusion cells cells, which just proliferated around
the country, every count. Auntie and state for emergency response and their EOC they created versions of fusion cells and businesses. Now Fusion cells. So hopefully that's where this goes, and you'll see the effects of it as well. Gentlemen, I wanted to apply this to a real world scenario. So if the T iae existed today, how would you say it could be employed to support American efforts that are going on right now in support of Ukraine? In the fight against Russia? Brian.
Thanks for the John I know we're all following. You praying very closely for a variety of reasons. So this is a very prescient question to ask. So it lets say that NATO was involved in this fight and a formation like the ti e was present. The first thing we need to understand in the Gia is well positioned to understand is the way our enemy in this case, it would be Russia. Conducts their information operations, and information Warfare their most utilize.
Micah's, what Rand and others have called the firehose of falsehood, where they just litter the information space, and not just social media Airwaves print multispectral. Absolutely everything. They flooded with all kinds of disconnected, disjointed, theories and statements alternate views and explanations of events. And they're very skilled at this, because their information, Warfare battalions. Doctrine, Li are already integrated formations that train and plan together.
They don't come together at a mobile site or deployment like our dues. They already have a standing capability that has some elements of the ti in it. And those information Warfare battalions, are traditionally organized, under Russia's, reconnaissance intelligence, surveillance and Target acquisition or rishta brigades and they have backing all the way up to strategic.
Communication. So there have been powerful and effective and have traditionally out cyclist in the information space in a number of instances show that if we bring the ti into the table, one of the things we can do is understand how Russia does business and begin to counter that. And one of the things that we need to understand about Russian information, Warfare, people often say, well, if it's all this false stuff, why do they have credibility?
Why does anyone believe their version of the story? Well, they don't care if you believe their version of the story and while we care about information fratricide and getting our narrative consistent and correct, they do not all of their separate units operate independently. And if they disprove, even each other's stories, they don't care about that because their goal is not to get the target audience
to believe. What they're saying, their goal is to so enough, confusion and uncertainty in the decision space that people go. Well, I don't know if that's true or not. So I'm not going to do anything about it. I'm going to sit and wait and as we sit and wait Russia then accomplishes a fait accompli.
And it's too late eventually. Okay, so that's that's how they operate Jack. You want to give a more specific example of what we could do to counter Russian information Warfare and then I'll give a couple of specific capabilities that the CIA would bring to your current sure. Sure, no problem. Hey, what you're talking about is the fear and uncertainty. There's a concept called Fudd Fu D and that means fear, uncertainty and doubt.
And that is a counter. That's a propaganda and counter-propaganda practice that's been codified. So you are absolutely on on the money and it's and it comes from politics. Actually, the root is from one political party or another filling the information space with a lot. Out of Doubt around a bill that they don't want to get enough votes. And what that does is it creates hesitation in the voting
audience. It reduces the amount of support and producing, you just get this, terrible vote response and you don't get your vote passed because it was, you know, killed by Fu D. Now, for Ukraine, I've got a more theoretical example. It's more applied and this is what I would do. I would have T.I a based out of Poland and have civil Affairs. Tactical PA psyop, go To you created work with the locals to expose Russian actions that go against their propaganda and would also shift their
population of support base. For example, having them go in and go to the Russian soldier, grave sites, and holding sites and identify the bodies. Go through the work of getting the photo, and the identification and the DNA. And then using cyber, and space Ops to Signal those next, Akins and provide them the information. Ation so that they can go and prove that their soldiers son and daughter. We're in the fight and have been killed despite Russia line about and saying that there's only
been 100 people dead. And what that does is it exposes the propaganda and forces the Russian Administration to answer to it and provide the truth. And by doing that, by leveraging against their own propaganda, with tangible, proof it creates frustration and resistance in the support base. Makes it harder for them to have widespread support in the base.
It starts to slow down, you know, production and finance because people know that their sons and daughters are being slipped off to get killed and they're not being told about it. Additionally, we could set up scenarios where we could capture video of Russian selling equipment or Starving in the field because their Commander spent the money right now. Russian attitudes are mixed by showing how the country and administration is not supporting the troops by line to the
public. It would shift that unified attitude in country and every time Putin tries to avoid a heart issue. We would put it out to the public with proof so that you would have to answer to his base, which would include the police, and security forces, and the political body that surround him. And that's how you use the ti in a persistent effort, to undermine your adversary. And push the Coalition cause Frank you got anything. Yeah.
Thanks for that specific. Applied example to make a real for the listeners, I'll give seven very brief lines of effort that the Gia would also execute jointly with what Jack described. And the first one is very, very
important. The in the experiment we found that the ti e significantly increased lethality of kinetic, Munitions and many folks, In combat arms, may be surprised to hear that because traditionally information work, there is construed with less than lethal or non-lethal effects, but it actually has a very significantly but component to it because what we're finding is these new high generation platforms, that our adversaries are our building and Land Air
and sea. Have a lot of protective capability or are hard to find in Target and are difficult to, to strike with one. Or even a redundant set of Munitions. But if you add, in the continuous multi, spectral shaping operations, from the ti e, against these high value, High platform targets, the kinetic kill rates go through the roof. So something that you, you might get lucky to hit and Achieve either. A total kill or Mobility kill on with conventional kinetic, Munitions and conventional
doctor. Aaron when it's t.i. enhanced, you're getting a kill almost every time. So that's one thing significantly increase the load Valatie of all strikes and Munitions that that would be occurring in the battle space. Another thing model the effects of enemy information attacks for the longest time when we were doing, say the wars in the last 20 years. When the enemy would do something we'd get a bunch of subject matter experts together and we'd ask the question.
Hey do we need to counter that We just let it die and we suck up this bandwidth with this panel of sneeze and it would take time to do that and then we would just based upon our opinion. Decide what action if any we would take now at the speed of modern warfare that's not going to be satisfactory anymore and we don't need to do that.
We have capabilities now with enhanced by Ai and other systems that allow us to actually model these information attacks and it quantitatively In fashion using scientific principles one technology that does. This is pulse by 26 Technologies. It's an excellent product and it
allows you to very quickly. Determine if a message, Amy, my memo plaques on narrative is gaining external brokerage and growing or whether it is simply a recirculating insignificant subgroups that we do not need to to potentially waste Resources with an intervention. Type of modeling is something we should be doing for every single information attack. So that we properly utilize are very precious resources to only counter those which actually matter and the ti a is equipped
to be able to do that. Another thing we need to talk about is, is competition. Most of this Warfare is competition. We've heard about say China winning without fighting. That is absolutely their strategy and if you take a look at how Oh, they've locked up Africa. For instance, it is becoming a successful strategy, phase 3 and major combat dominate operations become irrelevant if we lose in competition and our conventional military force. For a variety of reason is not
currently structured. In pastured to achieve the majority of its effects and competition as a persistent forward formation with significant standing and continuous influence, capabilities, native to the aors, in which they operate. The ti e will do a tremendous amount in this hypothetical situation of Ukraine both before and after dominate operations, hopefully preventing Warfare all together which would be a gigantic return on investment.
It will provide a significant deception operations. Deception is critical at this age of Modern Warfare. A Target. That can be detected. Can be destroyed Munitions, or small and powerful and it's through things like deception. Either increasing ambiguity or reducing ambiguity, on the battlefield that we keep our assets alive. Gia has significant capabilities to do this at all levels gain and maintain the initiative and the operational information environment.
This is where an enemy like Russia has traditionally dominated the space in an exercise that we do either service level or joint. Maybe we'll have a dozen information, injects per hour we have to deal with. In the real world, Russia will Dumping thousands per hour and our traditional formations will not be able to keep up with that. We will quickly lose the initiative. The ti a while.
So flood the oie similar to what Russia is doing but instead of disambiguated Fudd with positive truth and messaging which was going to bolster our allies and help us use the moral High ground. It's very important.
The moral High Ground may not matter in an individual battle or engagement but if you want strategic success which has been elusive, we've When you know winning every battle and losing every war since World War Two, we need to seize and own that moral High Ground at the end of the day to achieve US policy objectives. And finally the Gia has an unprecedented ability to get inside the observe Orient decide after food of loop as John Boyne coined it of the enemy.
It will allow us to isolate them disrupt, their combined arms, formations to the extent. They use them paralyzed, their decision-making harm. The Now, and reduce their freedom of movement. So, those are some of the just examples of the types of things John that the ti a would do. If this was a native fight in the arena in Ukraine over gentlemen. Thank you so much. I think that's very helpful for listeners to apply it to a place. That's well conflict that's
going on right now. I want to go back though because I think I didn't get to give you guys a chance to respond to what my thought was with that t.i. is this amalgamation of existing capabilities? Personnel that are across the ircs, the information related capabilities and whether this already exists. And so, I know you've come up with this approach and pitching the TA. But is it true? That this is essentially a grouping of existing capabilities in a new formation
at different echelons? And does it already exists and if not, why not? So, what you're asking is, did we just take the salad re toss and add some new dressing on top? Yes. Right. Yes. And no. I see it as an evolution in conflict and warfare design. We're taking existing capabilities. Yes, but we're building a for mission that fits the current fight. And that's, that's what the hang-up is.
Like I had said earlier, all of the silos where all of these different elements were existing and thriving in their own singular World. We're not creating the effect that we need in. We're fair to actually teach actually win. And so this is an attempt to combine. Those Brian mentioned competition in my work. I see competition as Conflict by other means than war and this includes extensive influence and hybrid operations, which is a core 2T i-a and civil Affairs
operations. So, to do this, we're taking existing capabilities and building a formation. That fits the current fight. Brian. You got any thoughts? Yes, a very good question, John, just for the audience, three specific things which are distinctly unique to the T iae. The first is persistent forward presence with many of these information capabilities, traditionally, in the reserve. Getting the mobilize, getting them on a toss orders, getting them to where they can make a
difference before. It's too late has been very difficult, you know, we've had attempts to do this with task Force's Tiana, which is now been folded. In 20 pick but we have not cracked the code on that and if you're not in the game, you cannot win the game. So by being persistent forward in the actual operating environment, these folks are going to get unprecedent expertise in the areas in which they operate, and they can immediately and continuously respond 24/7 in the ti e, so
persistent for presence is one. The second point is that they have these powerful standing authorities all the Up to National Technical capabilities. No. Existing formation has that right now and every IRC has separate authorities and often separate approval processes, that ends with the DIA they have it from the minute they're consummated. And they take it with them wherever they go, both forward and rear. And the third is getting back to your Voltron analogy John which
is the Gestalt principle, right? And the Gestalt principle is that the whole is greater Greater than the sum of the individual parts and the analogy. I like to use here is of a football team, okay? Right now, the way we've used information related capabilities, completely siloed, training planning executing oftentimes independently with a little bit of overlap in this
scenario. Imagine every single player on a football team has to try and make a touchdown because he doesn't know if anyone else has a plan to make a touchdown or how they're going to get it and they don't know how they're going to. This one another. So every one of them has the plan to pick up the football and go all the way down to the end zone. You can imagine how inefficient that would be in a real football
game. Okay, but by using Gestalt principle, by putting them together, eating living training, working planning rehearsing executing together on the actual football field, which the Gia does. Now they work as a team because we know at the end of the day to win a football game, only one person on that team has to score. Or but everyone else has a
critical role help them score. That is the Synergy and capability you gained through the Gestalt principle by putting these together in a persistent forward formation. Is that answer the question John it does. And that analogy I think it's very helpful for people to understand that in this new structure you would clearly have
a chain of command. You'd have people as the quarterback, you have the Special Teams you have defense and offense and so on and working as a team, Makes a lot of sense and from the my see a perspective and my personal experience of the last several years. Yeah I mean if you're less than effective right now or you want to be more effective going forward, we're trying to do more training with other ircs. Then why not try this out? Thank you for spending some time with us.
Please subscribe, and come back for another installment of one CA, until then be safe and secure the victory. In civil Affairs, your success depends on getting the right information to the right, people at the right time.
Whether it's foundational information for a team about to head out on a mission or putting together a map or other data visualization to brief a general or an ambassador Tesla Government Solutions and staff can help with Tesla government's Knowledge Management Solutions. You're adding a strategic partner that helps unleash the full power and potential of your information. Let us unpack your data and put your knowledge to work. Learn more at Tesla gov.com.
Elsie 38, brand.com the Civil Affairs Lifestyle. Brand a little bit of something for everybody t, shirts, polos shorts, hats flags, and posters for your walls and stickers for everything else. Celebrating the heritage of civil affairs, from the Civil reconnaissance of Lewis and Clark Through The Monuments Men of World War Two and companies of Vietnam representing the present teams of the global war
on terror. We have items for citizen soldiers of use of kapok and Warrior diplomats at Fort Bragg alike. Elsie, 38 brand.com. It's cool to like your job.