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Brand a little bit of something for everybody t, shirts, polos shorts, hats Flags, posters for your walls and stickers for everything else items for citizen soldiers of use of kapok and Warrior diplomats at Fort Bragg a like LC 38 brand.com. It's cool to like your job. And the really valuable thing. I think, is it goes team pulled, all the NPC's information, related capabilities Eliseo, CTS, and planners into a single team, with a team leader that has direct line.
And TC senior leaders the same as every other team. Leader out there, All of the live, the Italian team to this couple other types of proteins. We have out here and there's information capabilities, like civil Affairs and psyops, just didn't have that exposure in place prior to go steam. So I think it's been a really positive step. Hi. And welcome to the one seed pod cast. My name is John Miguel.
Get your host for today's episode and our guest today is Major John Burns. He's the Civil military operations, trainer, and operations, officer for ghost team at the National Training Center. The previous civil Affairs assignments for major Burns include serving as the G9 of the 13th expeditionary.
Sustainment command, at Fort Hood. Texas Commander Echo company at the 83rd civil Affairs Battalion. See mock chief for the Echo company at 83rd, see a battalion team Chief Fork at 2:53 in Bravo Company, 97, see a battalion and assistant operations officer for the 92nd civil Affairs. Battalion His see it appointments include the Sim. See the Civil monetary support element Cambodia and supporting us Pacific Fleet in Pacific partnership, 2017. 2018, major Burns.
Welcome the show. Hey, thanks for having me, John. It's really great to be here. I've been a longtime listener, the one, see a podcast, and I'm finally really happy to be here to help contribute to the overall discussion. Well, thank you for your time and I understand your between rotations. We're going to talk a lot about what happens at NTC. But can you briefly tell people now that you're in between these rotations? How many rotations you guys have a year and how long they
normally last? Yeah so a rotation at the National Training Center is 14 training days. I think that's important to note that those does not mean you're only here for 14 days, there's RSO and I so your reception staging onward movement, integration phase that happens and while we as OCT is really count about five of those days. For most units here, that can be up to two even three weeks if you come on torture at Vaughan. And then you've got to get ready
to leave too. It's not like when we call endex, everybody just packs up their tanks and weapons and goes off into the sunset. So it's a process. You have to both build combat power in the way in fight. Right. When and then you've got a, you've got to get all that combat power back out just like you would in a real deployment and the overall number of rotations a year right now Now anywhere from eight to ten rotations per year and in the coming fiscal years, okay?
I'm wondering if you could frame for listeners. What the National Training Center is all about. If you could go back to the beginning, when it all started and what does the army use the NTC for today? Yeah, it's a great question. So Fort Irwin started as an anti-aircraft range back in the 1940s in support of training for World War 2 and this training ground. Just south of Death Valley, California is adapt with every major conflict since then, and October 1980.
The department of the army doesn't need for Irwin, is a National Training Center. In an October 1981. The first maneuver Battalion arrived to test its metal, no pun intended. For those, we get the joke for over 40 years and 400 rotation. Ins are 1200 square. Mile training area, known as the box has prepared maneuver elements for the rigors of combat, it puts soldiers in units through a crucible experience.
I think that's really important. This is the toughest trainer to get in the army preparing you for combat and that Crucible experience will expose weakness but the same time provide the coaching and opportunities to work to overcome that and in that in that way, in this, you know, might sound a little patronizing, but it's not just a National Training Center but it's also a National Treasure. It's something a lot of other militaries don't have and it really does give us an advantage
to getting you to practice. Combined arms maneuver. And now I say you know, combined-arms not just in our traditional arms but combined arms the information space as well, right here, at before unit has to deploy. That's a big deal and we're going to get into those details about combined arms. And and what you guys do when the ghost team, I'm wondering, if you could talk about the the acronym OCT. Over Coach trainer. What that means and how they're divided into teams.
Maybe frame it for people who have never been to an TC of
never come across an OCT. So the ACT is you already defined, it's an observer coach and trainer and they're really the keys to successful training here at the National Training Center. OCT is responsible for partnering with a rotational unit from the platoon to the Brigade level, they observe the unit's operation throughout their time here at the National Training Center, Notes on the progress of the mission and guide and coaches needed.
And of course, ultimately we also act as safeties because nobody should die here at the National Training Center. It is training and we want to make sure you have the safest training. See if it's training iteration possible OCT. S I want to leave you kind of is OCT, s our partners. So sometimes units will come and they'll look at us with our God Guns and you know, our act uniform and they almost look at us like we're some sort of adversary that they have to fight.
Yeah. R, not the adversary. We're here to partner with you, black horse, our professional up for their the adversary. So, just remember, when you get here, OCT s are your partner. We're here to train you and we want to be successful with you. OCT is are assigned based on their experience and training and are tasked with improving the rotational unit through coaching. And there's three thoughtful Arc, you'll get throughout the
rotation. And then at the end overall, it's a really fulfilling job, OCT s watching its progress and individuals. Row and really some of the most grueling scenarios. The Army can throw at a unit at least from a collective training perspective and we do the side-by-side rotation after rotation, right? When your unit is out there in the Box, our OC teaser out there with you, you have constant coverage and so you really do start to get a lot out of watching the arch.
You grow because everybody grows at the National Training Center, and I like to think of OCT s is really the beating hearts of those teams that train. And then the National Training Center itself. I've been there three times. It works really really well. It's a well-oiled machine and it's great to see the oct, s the various teams including ghost, the coordination that has to happen amongst the oct succumb over, because its operations are going on at times 24 hours a day
and you guys need a rest too. And it's really fascinating to see that the coordination, like, hey, I've got to go back to pick up supplies or whatever. Somebody else going to cover you and watch your operations to the next six to eight or 12 hours. And if you have questions as rotational training, unit OCT is a really, really helpful in going through and guiding you on on the see a perspective and IO obviously, in sigh up about how you're going to meet your training objectives and guiding
you along the way. Letting you fail at times which is really, really good. And that's what I want to do in a safe environment but yeah, I can emphasize everything you just talked about Major Burns. One of the things that you mentioned is the god gun. So people who have not been there. What are you referring to? Yeah, so the god gun, it's for most of us we carry this pistol, but it's blue doesn't shit real bullets, it shoots lasers.
And as many of us do know, but if you haven't been to the National Training Center or another Combat Training Center, we have this system called miles and it's essentially a giant laser tag, right? A lot of us played laser tag is kids or, you know, some of Have kids play laser tag. Well, this is a really Advanced system of laser tag, but the god gun is, the oct is ability to help adjudicate kills near misses or bring people back to life in that laser tag game.
And so it's kind of a mark of OCT s when you've got your gut gun. It's something that when the rtu sees it they know what it's all about. But again, I don't want you to make. I don't want to make you feel like or the listeners feel like we're the Bad Guys. Most the time when OCT uses that God. Gun. It's actually for resurrect, right? Because after your if you are to be killed in that giant laser tag game. Bye bye. Black horse. We need to reset that system.
And so that God gun doesn't only give us the ability to adjudicate a kill, but it also gives us the ability to reset that system bring you back to life so you can continue training. That's good point. So let's talk now about the ghost team, Great Name, by the way. Awesome, awesome. Name, great logo. How did that come about? How did this Evolution from these other teams? Because Come ghost. Yes, who first let's let's start at the beginning of where we even get her name from so ghost.
Team is named after the 23rd headquarters, Special Troops activated in January, of 1944, as a unit meant to deceive. The Germans as the Allies move back onto the European continent. The ghost Army is the unit was called employed artists. Actors admin Architects and Engineers people who could think outside the box to achieve the mission. Often they use tools such as inflatable tanks and sound trucks.
Theater-quality sets to create illusions of a sizable Army element in order to distract the Germans from the main effort over and over again. They got inside the Germans decision-making cycle by just, never allowing them to completely understand what u.s. and Allied plans are going to be. So that's where we got our heritage from but fast forward to more recent history. So when my previous boss Lieutenant Colonel, Christopher
Wilson a really talented. Today officer arrived at NTC in July 20 2010. He sat down with then curdled now Brigadier General Mike simmering, the commander of
operations group. At the time, they discuss the option of creating an information operations team and breaking up the old Paradigm of having, see a psyop cyber electromagnetic activities, public affairs, as well as space split among various other Critter teams here at the National Training Center. And instead moving them into a single team that would focus on information operations. It's really an unprecedented move. Nobody else did this at the time and to this day nobody else has
done it yet. But ntc's leadership understood that Modern Warfare called for a change and the NTC was going to lead that change. That is how ghost team was born. Just a few months later after that conversation, by September of 2020, ghost logos were painted on the side of Humvees and Lieutenant Colonel Wilson led a group of those CTS on a pretty cool. Experiment, it is unique to this training center here, in the Mojave Desert That's really,
really cool. And shout out to he's gonna love this, but Sergeant First Class Gianluca who was, I've had the fortunate experience of training with him, in the 49 to see a battalion. He got to go out there as an OCT and again, plug in for people listening to volunteer to do that. But was fortunate to be a part of this goat seem Evolution. And saw the value of it makes total sense within used to kapok where I'm serving. We have see a psyop an IO in the same command, a lot of that.
And the first Special Forces command. So, I'm glad this the step was taken. Can you tell already major Burns? Whether ghost team has been a positive step forward for NTC? Yeah, absolutely. But first, let me go back to the guy. You just talked about certainly key so I did not know him as an OCT. I got here slightly after he left, he was one of the early OCT Suncoast team but I do know him as nrt you returning to the National Training Center after spending.
Ting time, I go Steam and I will tell you it was clear based on his maturity is experience that he had picked up a lot as a oct here at the National Training Center. So yeah absolutely awesome. And you know I want to talk more about possibility of coming the National Training Center is an OCT later because I think it's a really great opportunity but you know back to your question, has ghost team in a positive step for in TC and really the Army and I think unquestionably yes
right. If I could yell This microphone, which I'm not going to do. I would yell. Yes. But I guess team, why, why is it positive step? Well, there's a lot of reasons I could go on for days about it. We're not going to because you have a limited time but ghost team at its core tests, the rotational unit by making them compete.
In a contested information, environment and information operations to include information related capabilities, like civil Affairs at psyops, has always been a key element to victory in any conflict, but we're ensuring ghost team is ensuring that the Anil unit cannot ignore it.
Now both by doing exercise control, providing some higher headquarters control and also providing those OCT s who will Coach you know ultimately towards Victory here in the Mojave goes team, makes it information environment matter. To commanders and staff said, Echelon prior to the team. Everyone at NTC. And sigh up pa0, civil Affairs, Seema space and IO did great work, it just wasn't
synchronized as well. Resource by a single entity who had the role of essentially an information coordinator for the commander of operations group goes team brought that by creating ghost team were able to quickly change the way we train to achieve information, advantage, in alignment, with the Cog and the NTC, commanding generals vision. And the really valuable thing. I think is it goes, team pulled. All the NPC's information related capabilities.
They Co CTS and planners into a single team with a team leader that has a direct line and TC senior leaders the same as every other team. Leader out there, All of the line Battalion teams and there's a couple other types of Critter teams we have out here. And there's information capabilities, like civil Affairs and psyops, just didn't have that exposure influence prior to go steam. So I think it's been a really positive step.
Good, good. And I think, whenever I say something you talked about, which is ensuring that the rotational unit, the Brigade really, and it's battalions that are being tested. Cannot ignore these information, related capabilities or pieces of them. That's something that was certainly a big knock on rotations, the is where the emphasis is really been on these Brigade, combat teams coming through coming through and rightly, so should be, but these so-called enablers, that would
be there. Like, yeah, we that's not really our thing. We don't care so much about that, just, you know, provide security on the perimeter of what we have going on, but having this integrated better into the scenario is really big deal. So that's a lot of progress you've made, but would you say that there are many refinements or continued improvements that you're still making a ghost and what would you say they are. Yeah, absolutely. Right.
So we're never going to get it right ever, you know, 100%. So we're always growing. This is one of the reasons why I'm actually kind of excited about the team and the role I get to play on the team. So, as we look and we're still the newest team in the desert, about two years, we've just hit our stride, and we continue to improve every rotation when we find some success in training, you know, training the rtu to compete in the information environment.
We try not to just stop and kind of rest on our Laurels. We bring In adjacent teams the Ops group Staff, Black Horse, which is again our world-class opfor and we ask everyone, how do we bring even more value to the training next rotation, people get excited and training does get better. I mean, we just did this a couple of days ago. We probably had 30 people only about ten of whom were from go
steam sitting in a room. Saying, how do we make information operations better here at the National Training Center? Why do we how do we make it have more? Meaning not just to the enablers as you say and I do Is that term in a derogatory way? Because we are enabling to be easy to do their mission. But how do we make it matter? For the BCT even more? You know, one example I can point to is the strides we've
made. Sorry, the strides we've made with training for operations that consolidation area people who came to NPC two or three years ago, probably went through some sort of lanes training, right? We're civil Affairs, teams or psyops, you know, you do your you do your lane walking through the village, would probably be an ambush set. It up. Everybody have to react to contact.
You do a ceilidh, these things were all just kind of, you know, go do the lane get done, will hot wash it afterwards and then, you know, everybody just resets or we'll do it again tomorrow. Yeah, teams don't just go through pre-planned scenarios like that anymore. That happened the same time or the same way for every team. Every day. We have started going towards providing a more realistic and
relevant training program. While the Brigade goes to live fire, the sea Affairs company forms, a civil Affairs, task force, and if you dig into the new 3-5 7, you'll see. That's a doctrinal organization under that. Task force is the see a company. We add the psyops attachment, oftentimes, pull in unit, legal teams, unit Ministry teams and
as available electronic warfare. See, get elements in any other enablers that want to get on this training and we create a scenario very much related to what they've been experienced previously in force on Force. Yeah, but it focuses on establishing civil security and facilitating civil control in this consolidation area, just to the rear for the brigades, doing the live fire decisions ranging for a task organization to the
actions of teams individuals. Now, reverberate in a dynamic information environment which challenges the task force to rapidly analyze, the Civil component of the environment, develop courses of action, to address instability. And ultimately, you know, to ensure the bcts freedom of maneuver, I want to point out. No team goes through the same.
I'm Lane during this training and then the information they gather through civil engagement, simple Network, development and engagement that information goes back to the Sea mock who then has to analyze it, do civil knowledge integration and then figure out how to approach that problem over the next couple of days. Which that's pretty unique.
Not a lot of people do that and I think it's kind of a unique challenging training experience that we provide here at the National Training Center. That sounds really cool. Big improvement over those lanes that were happening before and really great to hear that. You can't just pass along the notes. The next team going through the lane thinking of just give me the same thing for you guys. Get ready for this Ambush on the left side of whatever that it
builds on itself. And that's exactly the kind of stuff to go through when you qualify and see as well, what we'll take a short break and we'll come back and continue. Our conversation with Major John Burns. He's the senior civil military operations, trainer and Ops officer for ghost team at the National Training Center. Enter, we'll be right back. Everywhere. You look, there's a barrage of emails and information.
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welcome back to the one. See if podcast, Our Guest today is Major John Burns. He's with ghost team at the National Training Center, and the first half of the show, we talked a lot about background of NTC. What OCT s Observer? Coaches trainers. Do the history of ghosts. Team going back to 2020 and how its evolved. Since then, I want to focus now on the ca teams and companies that go through rotations, some listeners may have dissipated in rotations myself.
I went through three of them and some were heavy on stability operations. Now, we've gone through and we're focusing more on near-peer competition. We're certainly focused on scenarios that are built toward Russia and China and North Korea. What would you say is the flavor of NTC rotations today and how do you see civil Affairs? Providing value to maneuver battalions and brigades who were the main focus of NTC rotations. Yeah, I love this discussion and it's another one where we could
go on for hours and days. So I'll, I'll cut myself short. If I start babbling, you please cut me short, but I'm pretty passionate about this stuff so at NTC right now, the bottom line is we're focused on training brigades to win in large-scale combat operations right? You know the mission our Commanding General gives us is to train the rotational training unit to win, the first battle of the next war and we think that's Going to be large-scale combat
operations. There is obvious differences between lascaux the acronym for large-scale combat operations. And what many of us grew up training for and executing with counterinsurgency operations which was stability, heavy, even more. So the Civil Affairs regiment because many of us were out doing phase zero type of operations outside of conflict zones all throughout the world. So there's a bit of a learning curve here that we all have to get used to including myself. Yes.
But it's important to remember that we can't throw away the lessons that we learned whether it's in coin or in those phase 0 operations, brigades must consolidate gains in their area of operation. And that requires a certain amount of Acumen for stability operations. And when that area of operations includes population centers, civil Affairs has a responsibility to consolidate gains around those areas that doesn't start after those
population centers. Are seized either, we need to get ahead of that challenge and incorporate it as a sequence. I plan to any operation, we really here, stress civil Network development, civil Network engagement and simple knowledge integration from day, one of our.
So and I we encourage civil Affairs forces to go be the eyes and ears of the Brigade and it's in the Civil component in order to identify civil, networks and gain information, that can be used to enhance the Commander's decision making process enable better command and control over all and inform the brigade's other War fighting functions, you know? Here at NTC there to population centers. Well, within 10 kilometers of Ellis, a Santa Fe, which is the LSA, the every Brigade executes, RSO.
And I out of the people who live in those towns, have relatives and Associates throughout the box, right, that training area that you're about to go fight in. But it's surprising how few units, work to get out to those places and try to identify useful networks to enable the brigades operations and then integrate that knowledge into the brigades plans and targeting.
But it can all be done during our so and I or at least as soon as we get the role players in which is usually about day three of our. So and I we have to note that list go also throw some wrinkles into civil Affairs operations, that coin usually didn't her not to the same degree. Few of us have operated on the hyper violent and fast paced Battlefield that we're going to face large-scale combat operations. And this is where we have to
start really focusing. Commanders will value our contributions when we are Mitigating risk and civil friction for them on the battlefield. We're survival is genuinely hard, we as a regiment cannot be anchor. Slowing down the fight are maneuver brothers and sisters will cut us loose because they
can't afford to be slowed down. Instead we need to get used to being integrated early with the planning process if our see mocks and our cats are integrated with their supported organizations from Reseda mission on. It's going to be difficult to catch up and commanders are not going to be waiting for us. So then that leads Having to understand where the Civil environment is going to cause friction for our commanders plan and work hard to mitigate it, that might be internally displaced.
People, flowing across the four line of troops. They could disrupt maneuver or it might be executing active. Populous control measures in urban areas, the separate civilians for military forces so that we can regenerate combat power. After a hard one fight, you can't be reactive at those situations, especially not in
large-scale combat. And operations, the plan must be made resource and have defined triggers before the maneuver Force. Ever crosses, a lot of departure then it needs to be monitored and adjusted as a conditions on
the ground change. I think when we can get to do that as a force regardless of what part of the Civil Affairs regiment were talking about, then we're going to be valued members of any team, whether it's a brigade combat team in division or some higher Echelon. Yeah, major Burns. I thats great points. Large-scale combat operations is going to be dirty. Very, very dirty and I just went
through some CLS course again. And what they're talking about, just for the medical aspect is prepare to operate independently and on our own for multiple days of time, maybe upwards of a week to try to figure out what are all the medical requirements that you would need to self-sustain. Keep people alive without getting them to roll 2. And so on the same thing would probably happen to civil Affairs and different IRC soldiers and Troops.
So yeah that's a big deal. Great point about using that time during our so nigh to get out to those towns and talk to civilians that requires a lot. A lot of preparation and sharing, you can actually shoot move and communicate during that time separate from the Italian word Brigade or coordinating with them. But where you're going and why you're doing it. But yeah, absolutely. If units rotating through to take advantage of that time then there will be a lot more successful than normal.
And wondering if you could frame for listeners who are preparing to go to Auntie, see what success may look like because you're not going to go to this massive training environment and think that you're going to solve all the problems for these civilians who were role players living in these towns. That's not the point of it. It's to exercise your systems and processes and make mistakes and learn from them as quickly as you can. I guess my question is, what do
you think? See a soldier who's going to come in for the first time and think man, I need to solve that water problem for this local person or I need to get them food. I need to get them humanitarian Aid and get them out of the area, it's not for them, right? It's for the maneuver Battalion and maneuver Brigade for whatever their desired end state is. But what does success look like for you and your guidance to these are to use Yeah. Great absolutely great question.
Because the nice thing about ghost team is not only a Rios ETS, but we design the part of the scenario in which the RT will fight in the information environment. And so I know what we're looking for because, you know, our team is the one who kind of sets those measures. And first and foremost, let me say you're right, we're War Fighters and the Civil Affairs, regiment, we're not humanitarians, right? That's not our job. We're not usaid or not non-government organizations,
we're here. Here to fight and win our nation's Wars. And we do that by shaping, it influencing the Civil component, the operating environment. So yeah, do I want that civilian to have the resources, they need to survive. I do.
But ultimately, the reason I want that is because if they're being taken care of right, whether we're doing it through some sort of transitional, governance, we're leveraging non-government organizations or other government agencies, to bring in relief that helps bring stability, E to the immediate rear of the Brigade. And then, it allows the keep the Brigade moving. It keeps her lines of communication open and keep supplies flowing.
It keeps the guns pointed towards the flot, and not back into an area, they've already cleared. And that's that's what we're trying to get and you're right. Nobody comes here and is successful right off. I would tell you, if you put me back in my company, Commander, bill it and I deployed my company here to the National Training Center, knowing everything. I know after having been here. Here, you little over a year and having helped lead this team. I would still struggle.
My company would still struggle to be successful except especially very early on because ntc's, just hard. But at the end of the day, whether you're a brand new civil Affairs specialist through the company Commander, you really have to start judging success by how well you're enabling that Brigade combat team to keep pushing forward and not have to deal with civil friction in the rear area.
Yeah, that's a good point that you don't want the maneuver Brigade commander and staff or orthos battalions feel like man to see a guy's just clean up this rear then we can move forward but we're being held back and occasionally. That happens to force at times to force those maneuver commanders to take note of what's happening in their consolidation area and to clean it up.
Part of the integration that happens is occasionally with the active and Reserve component CA units that go through. So do you see that those Campos work together at NTC and why? Or why not? Yes. And and I'm pretty excited about this because just the day before this recording, Special Operations in conventional civil Affairs. Forces work, side-by-side. Executing transitional governance activities in a town in the Box. Why? Well, the specifics of that very specific operation don't
necessarily matter. But in general, it's because the different flavors of civil Affairs. The different components bring slightly different Sets and possess different attributes of authorities. And oftentimes those defining characteristics complement each other. To create, a more optimized solution to the Civil challenges were going to face on the modern Battlefield. We Embrace that here at the National Training Center, we don't ignore it.
We designed the rotation that when softened conventional for civil Affairs are both on the ground. There's ample opportunity, not only to interact, but to enhance effects and working together, that is to say that the scenario is Designed to reward or rotational unit. The practice is soft conventional Force, interoperability integration and interdependence more than an RT. You the leaves wall between them when it comes to civil Affairs operations. That's really great to hear.
And last rotation, I went through last August, I think it was in August 20 21, approximately. We were having those engagements, but we'd sometimes come across a guy, the civilian of Battlefield, whose name magically would change. He's the same guy, but his name would be different based on whether you're talking to soft team or the conventional, see a team. Are you saying now that those roles have been Consolidated?
So, It's the same person you're talking to if you're collecting information or pulling out a network of individuals, the the sea Mock and cki actually works that way. Yeah, absolutely. So you know the specific thing you're referencing here. We have a limited number of role players. So sometimes you might find a role player with two different names, you know, hit the, I believe. But when you're here, right? Everybody's got a budget. However, now, the second part
you are, right? So, for instance, there's sometimes engagements because Reserve component is normally a larger component, the Civil Affairs Force here, at the National Training Center, They have more eyes and ears forward and especially early in a rotation. They'll be doing civil engagement, civil Network development and they'll meet somebody who based on hopefully the conversations they've already had with the soft element. They'll say.
Hey you know what? I think that guy belongs to an organization that maybe these guys are soft. Brothers and sisters, might have an interested. And so leveraging, the much larger Mass Reserve component. Says, it'll be here, they'll be the eyes and ears.
But occasionally, they'll find that that person is kind of, you know, Golden Nugget. That could be passed over to the soft side and then I'm not going to give away the secrets here, but the scenario is designed that being able to leverage that person and letting the soft side. It leverage that person could actually make your life easier. You know, further on in the rotation, not too much easier. It's still going to be hard. It's the National Training Center. Yeah.
But it might, it might contribute to consolidating gains and that's actually what we saw the day. Before this, this recording happened. But yeah, again, come and find out and play through it and then you'll see how it works out. That's great, couple more
questions here. I want to talk about next that the Cadre and the guidance, they provide so that Observer coach trainer the training part of this and the oftentimes the foot-stomping of it guys, if you haven't integrated with your supported unit, you should go over there and meet with them. You should be part of their operations process and MDM fee and ensuring your communication systems are up and running in
the talk to each other. Also, the operations process to task organized teams, two battalions as the fight progresses throughout the rotation into your point. About the integration, not only between active and Reserve, CA but all these other ircs did not hold onto information. That doesn't help anyone just to think that I've got the data. I've got this baseball card about somebody, I just met you
need to share that widely. And ensuring those reports and data are shared with the S9 of whoever you're supporting in the non-lethal targeting cell. So, given all that in the guidance that you provide to Euro CTS, what would you say are the areas that most CA units should emphasize for success? Yeah, so the theme of integration that you mentioned is dead on accurate and I'm going to talk about the very
things you've listed. What I think is really interesting about this topic is that it's not the Civil Affairs specific stuff that trips up civil Affairs companies. Right at the end of the day, what we do is civil Affairs officers and noncommissioned officers and Specialists isn't the hardest. Most technical thing on the Right. Oftentimes, we're talking to people, we're writing about it, we're sharing that information and we're building relationships. Most of us are pretty good at that.
That's why we came civil. We went civil Affairs, but it's sometimes the more basic things that trip us up and we get here. So first, we've got to show up ready to go. We must send our best people on the advance party. When main body hits the ground, they can't be wasting time. Trying to figure out the program. I mean, I've seen occasionally units not even show up day one
of ours. So and I have a day to and I will tell you, it sets them so far behind because they didn't send an advance on, and they didn't even show up on time to the fight. That hasn't An often but I've seen it. Yeah. We've got to send the best Supply. Sergeant on ADD Bond. We've got to send the best combo Sergeant, we can find on add a bond and we have to send a pretty talented member of the C Mod.
Q can integrate with the Brigade staff from receipt of mission on when Advan hits the ground, we have to get those vehicles in the supported brigades G CS s Army hierarchy. Why? Because your vehicles are going to break out here, right? It's some of the harshest terrain, you're going to train on a hundred, pretty pretty harsh conditions, especially during the Vehicles aren't showing up on the equipment. Status report Parts aren't going
to get ordered or installed why? This is something that I need to learn to. I was a company Commander because the ESR, the equipment status report is what commanders. Look at if a brigade or Battalion Commander sees a vehicle on that report, that doesn't have parts of hurt against it or that has Parts on hand, but not installed. They're going to do their part to motivate the right people to get it done.
If you don't have that level of Commander, Focus, your vehicles aren't going to be fully Mission capable. Capable and your teams and be left behind in some technical assembly area somewhere. Because again, if you're an anchor, you're going to be left behind another thing. Get your Communications up invalidated as part of the brigades comics, this actually starts. Well before add Von though, you need to come with the comms package that matches a brigades pace plan as closely as
possible. And I understand, not all of our units are going to have that robust of the package. You're only going to know what that equipment. Is after actively engaging, the brigades S6 many months out and if you're missing the right equipment, you've got to work with your Battalion, your Brigade, or even your K, com6 to get it and get it working. That's just going to be critical so that you can communicate. Then in sure you've got the right person on the ground to get it operational.
Well, before its time to cross, the line of departure, hfj BCP, sing Gars zipper and a laptops are all things. You need to bring to the modern fight. Finally to that. That talented capture major from the sea mock. They've got to get their on ADD Vaughn and have them integrate with the staff. When the main body arrives, the sea mock member better, be a trusted member of the Brigade staff he or she has already dug
into Mission analysis. Figured out all the war fighting functions and staff sections that company can bring value to. I think you almost want that person. So endeared to the Brigade staff that you're fighting the Brigade commander of the Brigade, XO to make sure they can actually come back and be part of your organization. Or at least, you know, live between the two organizations, being able to walk between the Operation Center and the see mock filling that Gap, that's what you want.
If you can do those three things, having a great Supply Sergeant on the ground, the great cam sergeant, and that see mock member coming in on, ADD Vaughn. That's a mission. Critical investment will pay. Dividends throughout the company's time at NTC. Yeah, great points. I've seen that work effectively and so much to the point where humid teams and the Ops officer until staff you, whatever you got in the SS 9 as well.
Certainly. But they're coming over to the ca element that's often collocated with Brigade. If it's the headquarters element, from that company teams typically tasked out to those battalions but yeah, they're often coming by like, hey, by the way, we got a meeting. Make sure that's on your radar. We've got questions, we need you guys to help us out with something playing this next
mission. And yeah, being plugged in And knowing that rotation knowing the op Tempo, the battle rhythm of. That Brigade is a huge huge deal. What would you say though? About integration with the other ircs for a see, a unit to be successful, what do they have to do in coordination with the siop pa0 and those other sections? So coordination, there is
obviously important. So I think I said this earlier, but one thing I really like to tell the ircs as a whole, when I briefed him during RSO, and I is that we need to combine arms in the information environment. So I'm a civil Affairs officer, right? I believe in our mission, what we do, and I think we can do great things as a regiment. But I know that when you bring civil Affairs psyops in other ircs together, we are greater than the sum of our individual.
Parts, right? We produce, you know, higher level results. So, how do we do that? So, first and foremost, we need to have a process for integrating those and how we do that here at the National Training Center, or at least how we coach to do that is through the information operations working group, right? Somebody first of all, within the Brigade staff needs to be designated the chief of I/O, or the io coordinator for the Brigade, and they bring all of these ircs together to start
coming up with plans. Understand how a we're going to try to affect the enemy, right? How the Brigade is going to execute maneuver to affect that enemy and then how we can bring to bear our capabilities, to enhance that brigades maneuver, right? Because at the end of the day again we're warfighters. We're not humanitarians out here. We are trying to enable that Brigade to fight and win better than if we weren't here.
So you usually do this to the information operations working group, which you want to happen prior. Prior to the targeting working group, because your outputs from the information operations working group need to be the inputs into that targeting working group for the most part. A lot of these things are going to be done as targets. That will then be re sourced and executed.
If they make it through that process, some of those things aren't going to necessarily be targets but they will go into other plans, right? They'll get in the plants process and you'll help determine courses of action for the next objective, based on that. So that I owg and having that I owe, Coordinator identified are going to be the key to bringing all those folks together. Another thing that I want to say about that, the iow G is not, not really where the sausage is made.
As people say, right? That's where we all come together and agree and prioritize. What we want to do, I see often civil Affairs and psyop because often times there were in the same use the kapok patch are pretty comfortable hanging out together building relationships, you know within That team and are pretty effective at saying, hey, this is how I think we can help each other produce better results. Sometimes is a little harder when people don't have that you see kapok patch on, right?
Where that first Special Forces command patch and we, you know, we've got to actively build those relationships. And sometimes it's not going to be with other ircs, sometimes it's going to be within often. It should be with the S2, right? Or the S3. So we understand what operations are going to happen and against, Enemy that's utilizing. You know what order of battle and what set? So, Ya Doin? What we do is civil Affairs
building relationships. That's the implied task in there that I'll specify, you know, for the sake of everybody being on the same page. That's how we do it. Yeah, that's good. And knowing that stuff, 48-72 hours, 96 hours in advance so you can plan and task organized in the Ops process for teams to, to us. Those battalions of being the right place skate to where the
puck is, I guess. So he talked About this a little bit already, but I wanted to see if you have any other comments about the best ways for CA units to prepare for rotation and it could be just see a specific like a reserve component, see a unit knowing who the active component, team will be there.
The calls, the planning meetings, they have to attend in preparation for an it's you see rotation with the active component unit, they're supporting, or just the kind of stuff that they need to do at home station to prepare to shoot move and communicate. So yeah, any other tips you have for them, prepare No secrets here and I think I've already alluded to this get the basics taken care of first.
Right first things first licensed Crews, who are trained and proficient to drive day or night have using night vision goggles are mandatory out here. This is no final mission for commanders during your train up. You got to get this done. You're not going to keep up with the world's best mounted Warriors and some of the world's harshest terrain and weather. If you can't operate your vehicle safely enough said on that second, know how to use. Or equipment, especially your
Communications equipment. You must know how to program and crypt, troubleshoot your radios and daggers, and I would be remiss if I didn't recommend that you're taking advantage of space and missile. Defense commands home station training packages to learn how to operate in a denied degraded and disrupted, space operating environment. I forget the exact number but within a brigade combat team, there's thousands of systems that are spaced enabled,
utilizing GPS and satellites. Many people don't recognize that as a basic yet. But in lisco under multi-domain operations, it is space, is a war fighting domain so is the electromagnetic spectrum. While ghost team has subject matter experts on these topics. If at all possible, you don't want to wait until arriving here to get that valuable training.
But if you can't fill it in, especially on some of that operating and deny degraded and disrupt its base operating environment, we can help you here and we will finally understand em BMP and how to integrate civil Affairs and civil-military. Operations with a maneuver force. In this case, the Brigade combat Team part of that, you got to know what a brigade combat team is read FM, 3-9 6, the Brigade combat team.
See you know what, the organization you are supporting is what its capabilities and brings to the fight are. It's okay not to know right now. I got it he'll before I was an OCT here. I hadn't even thought about a brigade combat team since since 2009. I mean, I'm an endo pay common law and civil Affairs officer who spent most of his time at These and on Navy ships, right? No bcts in sight. I understand that many of one, see a podcast listeners have spent their time on more exotic
deployments as well. But before you come to the National Training Center, you need to understand what a BCT is, what mission it has and what is comprised of so that, you know, how you can apply your craft to support it. Thank you so much. I wonder if we could close this conversation with a recruitment pitch. So, can you tell listeners why they should consider volunteering to be in oct.4 for one or more rotations? Like what's typically involved in basically why they should do
it? Yeah. So 100% we live or die by our Act is we don't got him. Nobody's me training here. So for civil Affairs, officers or ncos and TCS the place become an expert at your craft. You get to see civil Affairs units, come through every rotation and work through the most challenging collective training event. The Army has to offer, whether you realize it or not at the time it changes. You you internalize the lessons that you're often helping reveal to the unit, you're partnered with.
Also, being an OCT here is a service to the Civil Affairs. Regiment, you're building the regiment civil Affairs. Companies cannot train, without OCT s who have the requisite experience and strength of file to qualify. Volunteering to be an OCT at the National Training. Center is an investment in the Civil Affairs, regiment and your army, you'll provide the training that will enable civil Affairs soldiers to secure the victory of the next war.
Finally ghost team is a pretty cool team to be a part of our team has professionals from civil Affairs information operations, psyop, space public affairs and electronic warfare. You can write out your skills as a soldier prepared to fight on the modern Battlefield. Will being part of a pretty tight-knit and well-respected team that draws from both active
duty and the reserves. I want to highlight that we're proud of our multi, compo flavor, that's not something we try to. We try to shy away from whether active or Reserve, you matter on this team. In fact, our team executive officer major, Jeff White is an army reservist serving on a Das orders, right? He's in the leadership of our team. So if you're an active duty officer and CEO talk to your branch manager and see what options are available.
Are out there for coming here and if you're an army reservist, get out of Tour of Duty and fill out your application. I and the rest of the team, can't wait to meet you. And I'll close that by saying. You've got a kick-ass logo, which is really cool to wear Major. John Burns of the ghost Team National Training Center. Thanks so much for being on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me again.
I'm a longtime listener. I really value what the one see, a podcast brings to the regiment, the level discussion. So anything I can do for anybody they can feel free to reach out to me. You put my contact information to show notes and I'm looking forward to getting other members to ghost team for the National Training Center for smart.
You who've rotate through here on to the podcast so that we can continue this conversation and how we train, you know, not just a civil Affairs, regiment but are Army to win the first battle the next four? Yes, sir. Thank you. Have a good time in the desert. Well, cow. Thank you for spending some time with us. Please subscribe. And come back for another installment, one, CA until then
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