The Future of Care: Why Health Coaching Matters | EP37

Welcome to Oncology Revolution, where science meets care to transform the cancer journey. We explore evidence-based strategies to enhance quality of life, promote longevity, and empower patients and professionals to thrive beyond cancer. Welcome to the Oncology Revolution. I'm Marta, your host for today, and I'm a functional medicine certified health coach with a background in sports science and a master's in teaching.

I've walked the cancer journey closely through both of my parents and that experience led me into the world of integrative health. In today's episode, we are exploring the growing role of health coaching in transforming how we support people with chronic conditions, including cancer. We will look at what it means to go beyond just information or diagnosis and into the kind of lifestyle support, prevention and long-term healing that helps people truly sustain change.

And I'm especially excited today because I'm joined by someone who has deeply influenced my own journey. Sandra Chabain is the founder of the Functional Medicine Coaching Academy. where i received my certification and the program i truly loved for how it blends science compassion and behavior change in a real world way sandra is a clinical psychologist educator

public speaker and author. She's been working in the health space for nearly five decades and at age of 65, rather than retiring, she founded FMCA to train coaches and transform healthcare. That in itself is incredibly inspiring to me. And now, over a decade later, her mission is still going strong.

to ensure that millions of people receive the support they need to live healthier lives through the power of coaching and behavior change, because she believes that coaching is a critical piece in preventing chronic disease. reducing healthcare costs, and empowering patients. Her latest book, Your Health Coach Will See You Now, is a call for a more collaborative, compassionate future in healthcare.

And today we're diving into how that vision is becoming a reality. Sandy, welcome. It's truly a pleasure to have you here. Thank you so much. It is a joy to be here.

Oh, amazing. Talking about joy and before we dive in, I would love to begin by asking you, what's something that brought you joy this week? Well, it is rediscovering an old hobby. I think it is very important for people to have hobbies. And I used to sew. I sewed costumes and clothes. for my children. And it's been many, many years.

About 40 years since I was at a sewing machine, but I decided that I was going to take this hobby up again. And so it's what I did. And thank goodness for YouTube, because now I'm able to go. and search YouTube. Oh, how do you thread the machine? How do you sew a buttonhole, for example? And all this is available on YouTube. And it's very exciting. It's very engaging. It's creative. me a lot of joy that I remembered some old skills came back and I also was able to have a finished

product, a cute little skirt that I made for my two and a half year old granddaughter. So exciting to go further with this hobby. And again, it's critical that we have things that bring us joy that we can lose ourselves in that are. relaxing and often creative and often based around a community as well because there's people who are engaging in crafts and I've also done knitting and crocheting and needlepoint and there tends to be whole communities of people.

who share similar interests, get together and share their products, for example, or share their projects. And that's what gave me joy. Wow, that's amazing. I love that. It's just so important, as you were saying, find these little glimpses throughout our day or these things that will bring us together with others, will create connection, will help us develop new skills. and will bring that joy in, right?

Absolutely. Yeah. Actually, I heard there's a new movement. It's called the resurgence of what they're calling granny hobbies. So younger generations, Gen Z, are discovering things like sewing and knitting. and playing cards, Mahjong, for example, things that they're calling grandma hobbies. So delighted to see those coming back. Oh, I love that. Yeah, and we certainly need a lot of that.

Okay, so I would like to begin with, you know, you funded FMCA at a time when most people would be winding down their careers. right so what inspired you to create something so bold you know to take the leap and how did your path as a psychologist led you into the world of health coaching Well, I had been helping people for many, many years

who were suffering from things like depression, anxiety. I was a health psychologist, so I worked with people who had physical conditions such as migraine headaches. And I would use techniques that came from what we call mind-body medicine. I was teaching people. how to breathe, how to relax their muscles, for example, even things like postural adjustments, as well as changing their thinking. Instead of thinking of this is awful, I'm in horrible pain, I can't stand it.

changing those thought patterns. And as a result, they were finding that they were coping with their condition better and actually experiencing a great deal of symptom relief. And I had people coming to me at the time, this was around 10, 12 years ago, who were saying, you know, you should really... teach health coaches. I was trained as a health coach from another program, they would say, and I feel like I could really benefit from your

education in these areas that you are doing with your own clients as a psychologist. And so that inspired me. And around that time, I had been training myself in functional medicine and found that these principles, which have to do with finding the root causes of medical symptoms, this really was perfectly suited.

for health coaching, not that health coaches practice medicine unless they have a license to do that, but the principles of functional medicine apply where they could guide people and they could teach people about how to lead them. to really realize what is the root cause. of their condition and then apply those lifestyle changes that are going to make a huge difference in their symptomatology. So I went to the Institute for Functional Medicine.

And which is where I had been certified. They trained practitioners and pitched the idea to them of having a health coach training program. And they were very interested. And we spent about a year. the curriculum together, gathered in retreats with the top leaders from the Institute for Functional Medicine, and developed a curriculum that not only teaches the functional medicine principles, but the principles of how to be a great coach.

how to use positive psychology, which is really an emphasis on what's right with you rather than what's wrong, and integrating nutrition concepts, mind-body medicine, psychology of eating, and we put it together. to form a remote curriculum. And now we've trained over 5,000 people around the world. And it is just so exciting to see the wonderful things they are doing, like what you're doing personally. Yeah, absolutely. And what a beautiful curriculum it is. I can tell you even, you know.

um in conversations with other coaches i i can feel and understand the difference of where we are coming from with our background and this with like being humble and I'm not trying to say that the course is better than others, but certainly is powerful. The curriculum is really good. Thank you.

Chronic diseases are largely preventable. And in fact, we know that up to 80% of them can be avoided through lifestyle changes. Yet, most patients, they still leave appointments overwhelmed or unsupported in the how. So for those unfamiliar, how do you define health coaching and what does a health coach actually do and what it makes it so uniquely effective?

Sure. So a health coach, in a nutshell, helps you go from where you are now to where you want to be. What would make life great for you? And it helps you change. when change is hard. So that's the process of coaching because what we're talking about is making changes in your daily habits that often are ingrained.

And they're hard to make changes. You may be very inspired to do so, just like you inspired, for example, to make a New Year's resolution. But most people break those by February. And so coaches. are going to break those goals down into manageable steps where you will achieve success. They will provide education and it's very confusing out there. One day you may read a headline that red meat is bad for you and the other next day it's good for you. Well, health coaches help you realize that.

There is no one size fits all approach that health is highly personalized and helps you to become your own medical detective to explore, OK, what are some of the things that are uniquely. problematic for you as well as how would you thrive? And that happens in conversations where a coach and the client, you get together with your coach.

It could be online increasingly. And you come to decisions in terms of where you want to change and what areas. When are you going to start? How are you going to start? What are those first steps? How can a health coach hold you accountable? And then follow up and follow up sessions with a coach where you assess progress. and look at ways often to track progress. That could be health coaches help you with using things like wearables or testing that might be available now as...

As a consumer, where no longer do you need to go to your doctor for everything, people are having access now to information, to testing like never before. But it can be overwhelming. It can be confusing. reliable, what's accurate, what's not. It's overwhelming often. And so a coach can help you make sense of that data and help you find the right medical support.

And if that's confusing and you need a different type of specialist or a different type of support, a health coach can help you find that. Yeah. Well, all in there. There is so much that a health coach can add, definitely. So...

Often you said that coaches are key to reversing chronic illness and reducing health care costs. What do you believe that the healthcare system isn't still seeing or fully valuing about the role of coaching? Yeah. Well, first of all, we have a problem with our medical system, and that is it is technologically becoming more and more sophisticated with the use of artificial intelligence. for example. And so we are getting we are the best in terms of acute care.

So if somebody is having a heart attack, they don't need to be seeing a health coach at that moment. They need the best of acute care medicine. And we're making great strides in that those life-saving techniques. But where we're falling short are the chronic conditions. So chronic conditions, as Dr. Jeff Bland, the father of functional medicine, says, are not meant to be treated in the clinic, in the hospital, in the doctor's office.

So you go to those locations. Again, if you're having a heart attack, if you broke your arm, that is that emergency medicine, that acute care. It is very good. But what happens if you are obese? What happens if you have type 2 diabetes? What happens if you have an autoimmune condition? Well, those conditions are not best treated.

in a hospital in a doctor's office because the solutions there are just medication treatment procedures where what you really need is to address what caused that obesity what caused the type 2 diabetes in the first place and that gets back to those daily habits. What are you eating? You know, food is medicine. As Dr. Mark Hyman said, the most important thing you do on a daily basis, the most important decision is deciding what you put on the end of your fork, what foods you eat and specifically.

for you because again, it is not one size fits all. So you might be able to eat certain foods that for me would be very damaging to my body. And a health coach can help you sort that out. What about movement? And they're like, okay, one person might be suited to being a runner. Somebody else might not be. And so finding what works for that individual and then sticking to it and then prioritizing sleep. We all have different.

different ways, different needs regarding sleep. So some people might be naturally early risers and for others, not so much. You can wear rings, for example, wearables that are charting your sleep, and a health coach can help you make sense of that data and follow through. And then the other areas would have to do with your relationships. Do you have meaning and purpose? Are you part of a community?

as well as how you are dealing with the inevitable amounts of stress that's in everyone's lives. And so those are the lifestyle factors. Those are the five of them. It's food, it's exercise. It is sleep, relationships and stress. Those lifestyle factors. are driving most chronic diseases when they are out of whack. And as you make those changes in those areas, that will directly impact chronic disease. In many cases we are able to reverse these chronic conditions.

And so those are the areas that are very well suited for health coaching. And that's why I say health coaching is key to reducing the incidence of chronic disease. And that's just not my opinion. We have tons of studies. backing up this claim where they have looked at people who are working with a health coach. They've already been diagnosed with these particular conditions.

They get better. Their biomarkers on lab tests improve, for example, and their quality of life improves. The main reason for this has to do with something called self-efficacy. This shows up over and over again. I believe it's the main reason that health coaching is so impactful. It's a sense that you are in charge of your own. destiny of your own health, that you can take charge of your health. You can make these powerful decisions.

for yourself. That doesn't mean that you're acting as your own doctor. We need our medical doctors, our community of physicians, for example. That means that you are in control, not having some doctor telling you what to do. Yeah. And I've seen firsthand also with my clients how much just small lifestyle changes can change in their health, in their well-being. And exactly like you were saying, I think...

the fact that it's not one size fits all approach. And we really look at that individual and at their lives, at their beliefs and work with all of that. right especially nowadays with so much information it's it's overwhelming and people often forget sometimes they want to change things but they forget that that might not be in alignment with who they are or what they want And...

bringing them back to that individuality and to remember also why this is important to them. I think it's really key and fundamental when we talk about behavior change, which is... one of the most difficult things to do, right? Because it's easier to take a pill than changing habits. So true. Right.

Both of my parents, they had cancer and their journey was also one of the reasons that led me to study integrative health and functional medicine. And I saw the power of lifestyle medicine.

you know and how much changing your your daily habits the way that you eat all that you talked about can influence that the manifestation of disease or not but also how powerful it is when people have support you know not just from doctors but also from someone walking beside them through lifestyle, through the emotional aspects of healing.

So I would love to hear your perspective. How do you see coaching playing a role in cancer care, you know, whether in prevention throughout treatment or in post-treatment and long-term recovery? I think first and foremost, it is support. Often, it is just providing a listening ear. Somebody knowing that that coach will be by your side.

because it's easy to give up hope it's easy to see cancer as a death sentence and when you lose hope that is the most destructive now path that you're going to be on I worked for many years in a field called psychosocial oncology. And when I was a psychologist, I would go see people who were in the hospital, for example, cancer, people who had been diagnosed with cancer.

Those who had hope, those who also can still, it's living with cancer and could have moments where they could still laugh. They could still be with loved ones. They can experience these positive emotions. Very, very healing. Also to know that these daily habits do make a difference. The foods you eat, often though it might be a radical change in their diet.

And that's very hard to do. And often they get conflicting advice. They may have doctors who say, oh, you can eat anything. And don't worry, this is the time, you know, have that hot food sundae, you know, don't. yourself. And then they might hear another message or they may hear something on a podcast, for example, it says, oh, you know, go on a keto diet, eliminate sugar, sugar feeds cancer. Now they're torn.

Should I listen to my doctor? Should I listen to other sources? And a health coach can help them by listening, by asking the right questions where there's no right or wrong. It's up to that individual to say, yes. I am going to make these dietary changes. I want to do this. And I can picture a positive outcome from doing so. Or if somebody says, you know what? I'm just going to have that hot for Sunday because I want to enjoy the taste of that. And I'm not going to deprive myself. Well.

Right. And they might be getting positive emotions, the joy of eating that, especially if they're eating that within the company of others and in having that positive experience. So there's no right or wrong here necessarily. It's what's right for that person. And all of the studies on health coaches working with patients who have cancer has to do with the improvements in their quality of life. There are indices, self-report measures where they are asked questions.

And based on those answers, what is their quality of life like? And when they have a coach by their side, they perform better on these measures of quality of life. And that is what's most important with cancer. But we're also seeing that a coach may educate them on the importance of, for example, refining movement. Those people who are engaging in movement tend to fare better, for example.

First and foremost, it is listening. It is somebody having someone to talk to and they don't need a therapist because something that I had seen all too frequently is somebody has cancer and now they get another. diagnosis of depression. But this is often a natural consequence where they wouldn't be depressed if they didn't have cancer. And so often then they are sucked into this mental health system and seeing therapists who are then helping them focus on issues.

That might, again, be like even feeding their cancer because they're getting upset. They're getting distressed during those sessions. And so really a health coach will be that listener to help them, of course, if they want to. talk about their fears, their deepest, darkest fears and anxieties. These are natural feelings when you have cancer. But it's also now also being able to have positive memories. And even people who are in hospice and stage cancer are able to still enjoy.

experiences in their life. And that's been validated over and over again. In fact, Many people experience post-traumatic growth from having cancer, where they will emerge from their experiences with cancer to have a renewed mission. purpose in life, renewed respect for the sanctity of life or where they are and now where they want to be. Their life may take a different path career-wise or relationship-wise.

And so we see this over and over again where they'll say, well, I thank my cancer because now I was able to really prioritize what matters most to me. Yeah, it's like that. a wake-up call like some will will say right yeah i think having a space to be heard is just so important for those that are navigating the cancer journey and sometimes a space

that is not next to the ones that are the closest to you, where you can actually express what you were feeling, right? Like you were saying, there is so much fear, there is the lose of hope or... And sometimes it's just so much for you to navigate with all the other things that are happening. And I believe that having a guide... on your side, not necessarily telling you what to do is just such an empowering force if you are going through a cancer journey. Yes, absolutely.

All right. So many of our listeners, they are health professionals or clinic owners and many practitioners that... they don't fully understand how to integrate a coach into their model or what they are missing by not doing so. So for someone who's never worked with a coach before, what would you say or want them to know and how can they practically integrate coaching into their model of care and what's the cost of not doing so?

Sure. When you have a coach in your practice, in your clinic, you are going to really help your patients to thrive. You are addressing their needs where they will have a better quality of life, a better sense of being able to take charge of their health. They will feel that there's hope. for their medical condition, they will feel supported.

supported by their practice. And we've all had the experience of going to clinics, going to doctor's offices. There's often long waits for an appointment, long waits when you get there in the waiting room, or even telehealth. problems connecting, for example, it's confusing, making appointments. And so a coach is like that person's friend or concierge in the practice where they'll help navigate through the practice.

And this is something that your patients will appreciate. They will want to come back to your practice. They will refer others to your practice. And for you as the practitioner, we know that many doctors... Many providers are burnt out. They're leaving their practices. They're retiring early.

And we know that when you have a health coach on your team, then that will help to prevent that burnout, that you will be able to see results. You'll see your patients are getting better. That's very satisfying. And often you as the busy clinician may not have the time that you wish you could spend with each person. The coach will have that time. to spend with your patients. And so that is a good feeling, knowing that your patients

are taken care of. And you can also then use that in terms of having, again, your own Your own satisfaction, knowing that people with chronic conditions, often people who are medical doctors didn't get that kind of training and coaching skills. So this is something that is. It's really important for medical practices. What we're finding is that integrating a coach, and there's several ways you can do that. You can hire somebody, you can have a contract with them, or you can just try out.

working with a coach by referring to somebody who is in your community. Increasingly, though, if people are doing online coaching, remote coaching, they don't even have to be where you have your. They can be in another part of the world and you can still be referring your patients to them. And that is something that, again, everybody benefits when you have that type of relationship. in place for your patients. And so we create real change. We really work at the behavior level, right? Yes.

So can you share a real world example of a clinic or an integrative care team where coaches are creating measurable impact? Sure. So one that comes to mind, this is a clinic where they started out where there was in San Diego. clinic and he started out with one health coach and in fact got thousands of applications and the two that narrowed it down to were FMCA graduates and hired a health coach.

And patients loved it. And the practice grew. And then that person, the first health coach, now is the lead coach. And they're hiring more. They have two more coaches. They're hiring more coaches. So it's a team. health coaches and that is one model and another model is where they the health coach sees everybody for that first visit and often that's in groups and then when

The doctor sees that individual. The doctor is more like the consultant because that person has already gotten started with these critical lifestyle changes. The doctor is coming in, reviewing the labs, reviewing, developing a treatment. plan if more is necessary. But often people get better just from those lifestyle changes alone. And so the doctor's job becomes much, much easier. And that's a common pattern that we see all the time.

Yeah, I love that. And I mean, anyone that is suffering from a chronic disease, usually as soon as they start. usually if they are there, it's because their lifestyle took them there, right? So as soon as they start making small changes... It's already the first step that will change everything on the road ahead.

I really love that model where the coach is the first point of contact, actually. It's the first time I'm hearing it. And yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing. Sure. And it often is during those... Wait times where somebody often it's getting harder and harder to get in to see a doctor, especially if you're a new patient. There might be a long wait time, months to wait for that appointment. And the coach cuts down on that wait time.

Yeah. And again, the doctors, like you said many times, they don't have that time that... that requires to be there work or even the skills right in terms of motivational interviewing or using positive psychology whatever it is to to be there with the clients and and working on those behavior changes

Absolutely. So if you could redesign the healthcare system from scratch, what would the ideal care team look like and how would the coaches be involved from day one? Yeah, there would be a health coach on every medical care team, even on surgery teams. They found that when those people awaiting surgery had a health coach, they did better. They were reporting less pain. They also were discharged from the hospital.

earlier so it cuts down on cost so that model where every team you see the coach first they have the time to really listen you tell your story and then the medical part of the team intervenes with whatever you may need. But the idea is that you see your coach first and often a good way. for those sessions to be conducted is in groups where the community is the medicine. It is really critical. We are lonely as a population now and it's getting worse.

And people feel disconnected. They work remotely. They eat alone. are really longing for this sense of community. And so group health coaching is something I'm a big proponent of. And that is where you find, oh, like these other people, they have the... They're suffering from the same things I am. I see what they're doing. If they can make changes, maybe I can as well. You just don't feel so alone.

And that's why we've had models like Alcoholics Anonymous or Weight Watchers. It's why they work. It's because of the power of the community. So group health coaching is the way to go. And the big reason for. that. One of many reasons is that it's affordable. It's an affordable model for most people where they can participate in a group. Yeah, 100%. And like you were saying, we are getting more lonely and lonely. And connection is really something that...

It's just so important for each individual and it needs to be on top of mind when it comes to any area really. From my own experience with groups what often happens is people do relate a lot. uh even until then they form the community and they feel a little bit more connected but the the fact that they have someone to relate to

Because usually we always think that we are the only ones feeling a certain way or going through a certain thing, right? And when we find someone that is also going through the same thing, it kind of helps making things... I don't think the right word is easier, but it's different. Yes. Often you just don't feel alone. You may pick up different strategies, but also just to be able to talk. to groups where people get you. And that's something that is really critical, and we've lost that. Yeah.

So do you see coaching evolving even more as part of digital health, AI or remote care models? Yeah, so there are many companies developing AI health coaches. And these are in many ways good developments. But they often have to do with giving advice. That's not coaching. Coaches don't tell you what to do. They ask the right questions where you on your own will say, yeah, this works for me. This is makes sense. This is what I.

I'm going to do. And you follow through. But there are apps that are going to make tracking easier. And so it is not AI health coaches or human. It is human health coaches assisted by AI. And that's where we're going to see a lot of growth. Yeah, it's going to be interesting. Yes. So what's one thing you wish more people, whether patients or professionals, truly understood about health coaching, whether they are a patient, a practitioner or a policymaker?

Yeah. It is not about giving advice. And again, the apps, the AI health coaches and development, like by Apple, for example. It's all about like, oh, they'll tell you what to eat. They'll give you a food plan. They'll tell you you need to be exercising. That doesn't work. Health coaching is about. the right questions. What do you want your health for? What matters most? What makes life worth living for you?

As a result, you will start to rethink and reformulate where you are and where you want to start to make some changes. And so it really is that those are the skills. of health coaching. It's listening and asking the right questions. It's not about people think health coaching, oh, they'll tell me what to eat. I need a coach to tell me what to eat, for example. That's not what it is.

That doesn't work. Yeah. It is such a misconception. And I think the fact that there are a lot of people that had to tell others what to do kind of created. that that misconception because as you were saying people think that you will tell them what you do where your your role is really to evoke change to develop that self-agency or efficiency like you you mentioned in the beginning and to kind of I like to think about it, guide you in the internal journey.

right sometimes of even rediscovering whether it's your joy your purpose your health your why whatever it is but it is a lot about that and I think that is one of the things that probably needs a lot of work still of understanding the importance of these as well, because until people experience it.

they don't understand what really is. Even this process of coaching, because there are so many different persons or companies calling coaching to something that... perhaps sometimes it's not really coaching so uh yeah

So as someone who trained thousands of coaches, is there a story or a transformation that stayed with you or that reminds you why you choose this path and why this work matters? Well, let me tell you about one of our early graduates. She's in India. Her name is Anandita. And she came to us because her daughter had a skin condition. and they'd gone to tons of doctors and looked at all different kinds of remedies and nothing was working. And so on her own, she discovered functional medicine.

Dr. Mark Hyman, and she started changing her daughter's diet on her own, and her eczema cleared up. And that inspired Anandita to train to become a health coach. She had no background in... health care whatsoever. But she had a mission to help other children, other people who were suffering, particularly from autoimmune conditions like her daughter. And so she trained with us in the early days. This was about 10 years ago now.

And she went on. The doctor, the dermatologist who had been seeing her daughter was so amazed by the changes. in her condition that she decided she was going to study functional medicine as a doctor. And they started to work together. She started to refer people to Anandita. Her business grew and she wrote a book. She wrote a book. for children about healing from these skin conditions.

I believe she launched a podcast. She has a newsletter and she has a thriving practice. And when she started, she was the only individual. This was in Mumbai. who's practicing functional medicine health coaching. She was the only functional medicine health coach in India. And she has grown now and has a wonderful reputation. And we have more and more people who are just... the power of health coaching.

according to functional medicine principles. And many are using it for their own personal reasons, where they are transformed. The process of becoming a coach will transform you personally. as well as the process of learning these critical principles of root cause medicine, which is functional medicine. Yeah, that's amazing. It's really beautiful. I believe that...

Most of the people that end up in... forms of more integrative health they all have a bigger reason either it was themselves or someone in their family and that is what kind of then opens up so many different paths and doing it even up to a life mission. So yeah, it's really beautiful.

So to end on a more personal note, because I believe reflections like this can be incredible, inspiring for those listening. What's... one belief or value that you live by that continues to guide your work, life and leadership. Yeah, well, every day when I get out of bed, my feet hit the floor. I tell myself to make it a good day. I tell myself today is going to be a good day and it is largely dependent on.

on me, on the thoughts I have, the experiences that I create for myself and really the sense that you can take charge. of your health that you really can't control so many things. And so that continues to guide me as well as I focus on all of the thousands of health coaches that we have now trained through FMCA. And really having that as my meaning and purpose to continue this critical work to save health care, to help millions of people live better life. And that's why I wrote my book.

why I continue to lead Functional Medicine Coaching Academy. Well, and we are so lucky to have you on this revolution and on this mission to help change our healthcare system that I know we often say our sick care system. Just before I finish, I have one more question for you, if that's okay. Sure. So if your younger self, maybe, you know, the teacher or... the early psychologist version of you or even a younger child part could see what you've built today? What do you think she'd say?

I don't think she'd believe it because when I was younger, I didn't think much of myself. But I had learning disabilities and had anxiety and really had focused on more of the negative way of thinking. And so I think she would be overwhelmed, floored. Whoa. She will be, probably. Well, Dr. Sandy, thank you so much for being with us today, you know, for your vision, your heart and your leadership in reshaping healthcare. It's clear that the future of healing is not just clinical.

It's human and it's collaborative. And to everyone listening, thank you for tuning in to this powerful episode. If you are a coach, a practitioner or someone on your own health journey, I hope this gave you insight into how we can build a more connection. and sustainable path forward together. I hope today's episode gave you practical insight into how we can create real change in healthcare not just for systems but for real people.

And be sure to subscribe for more conversations like this. And I will see you in the next episode. Well... Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and your journey. And again, now I could hear, I always say that there is always something that guides people. in their direction right and like i think i could hear a bit of yours as well uh even more now um yeah Thank you. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been an honor and a delightful conversation. I wish you all the best.

for you too an honor for me thank you so much thank you and let us know when this airs and we'll share it yeah yeah i will i will then send you the details uh when the episode will be out and probably we'll do if you are open to we can on the on the LinkedIn and there are lots of healthcare practitioners so hopefully we'll inspire some people to do our course sounds good thank you so much Thank you. Have a good day. You too. Bye now.