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That's why the world works with ServiceNow. Visit servicenow.com slash AI for people to learn more. Hi everyone, from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. We're bringing you a special episode of On Today to talk about the big news over the weekend, the news that wasn't CrowdStrike.
I'm talking about President Biden's decision to drop out of the 2024 presidential race and to endorse Vice President Kamala Harris for President or the brat as Charlie XCX called her on Twitter. That is a big deal, apparently my children tell me. We're going to talk about what's happening behind the scenes of the White House and how this decision is already changing the election with a dynamic panel of guests we grabbed at the last minute and thank you so much for them for showing up.
Audit Cornish CNN anchor and correspondent and host of the assignment podcast Washington Post senior national political correspondent Ashley Parker Franklin for staff writer for the Atlanta and author of the last politician inside Joe Biden's White House and the struggle for America's future and Axios's national political correspondent Alex Thompson who is also writing a book about Biden will be back in your feed on Thursday with more analysis on this but now here's the special.
Audit Franklin Ashley and Alex thanks for coming on we're going to do a quick and dirty as I like to call it which is always fun.
Before President Biden announced he wouldn't run you had written that he stepped down in order to quote avoid the long term and dignity being remembered as one of history's great fools wherever you concerned you would you've written a book about and you spent a lot of time with him that he would dig in his heels and refuse to give up because that was one of the stories going around totally it was like it was a he has a psychological set of armor that he built up over many years in order to deal with humiliation and with episodes where he falls flat on the ground.
And over the course of his career he'd fallen flat on his face many many times and the story he told himself was that he always rebounded that he had the ability to to grit his way through and so I figured that was what he was doing here or you know I felt eventually he'd get to a moment because he's a politician who's good accounting noses that he'd understand that it wasn't possible anymore that the polling wouldn't hold up but I knew he would dig in to avoid the humiliation for the next time.
But you thought it was inevitable that he would drop out. It seemed like it to me just based on the polling based on the way that elites were responding and one thing that Biden always respects is the opinion of other politicians. So if there was a critical mass of opinion from elected officials telling him this wasn't going to happen that he was doing them.
It felt to me like he would respond to that after a very very painful process of of of going through all of the many emotions of resentment and anger that he would go through. So you know there was a lot of reporting the past you saying Biden was blaming Barack Obama for registering the movement to force him out then a focus seemed to shift to Nancy Pelosi and heard behind the scenes machinations which were quite machinating it seems.
Right he respects the opinions of fellow electeds because he believes like him they've had to answer to voters they've had to win elections and that matters more than sort of advisors. That said he was keeping an incredibly tight insular circle of a dwindling number of advisors that could really be boiled down to Mike Donnellan and Steve Rashaddi by the final day. And Ron Cling a little bit off to the side it seemed or at least publicly I would say he was outer inner.
But I think you know early on when this started in like Frank I went back in fourth of you know is he going to is he going to withdraw is he not and sometimes on the vibes I would be like oh my god it's going to happen it's going to happen quickly and then two days later I'd be like this this guy staying in until November so I have
I have vacillated for the past three weeks but early on you know the people who knew him now talk to him now talk to people who talk to him worked with him worked for him for decades they basically said the if and when he gets out this is how it happens there's polls that show he can't he doesn't really have a path.
The money dries up both of those things happened and then they said it will have to be sort of if it's not the family right if it's not Jill you know his grandkids etc if it's not the family. Or this small coterie of advisors it will have to be sort of party elders party leaders so the Nancy Pelosi's Chuck Schumer's a keen Jeffery's.
He's a resentful correct he was certainly resentful of anything with Barack Obama because they have a complicated relationship in a chip on his shoulder from that but when these and he's still frustrated with a lot of what he
views as betrayal of people he's known for a long time but they felt the most compelling pitch would be one that's not just the reality and as Frank said he can count votes use a politician but also the appeal to his legacy right I heard a lot of people said you know I would go to them and I would say you've been a great president everyone had that caveat whenever they say get out that just that idea you've been so good that you must leave now yeah yes that worse so
on some people are blaming the media for supposedly forcing by now which is odd I think I I would say it was Nancy Pelosi he came Jeffries Chuck Schumer Barack Obama an internal polls do you think that the media played a role in the out ouster at all or no it's funny it's like a live by the sword die by the sword right like when politicians are enjoying their momentum they are not like the media needs to stop talking about how great I am it's too much you know what I mean
that when it's on the other side those are dark days and just a pause for a minute care like it's funny thinking about how the things that you nurture as a person in your characteristics to survive are not always the things that help you once you get there to thrive like not to go Instagram grid on people but like that ability to dig in that Biden has like did not serve him in this last year
but I was successful with this and therefore completely but on the other hand I do understand the idea that you know it was always said that he and Obama got along because each one thought they were teaching the other something and I do think that Biden wanted a win on his own he did like that those wins were Obama wins let's face it and the win over Trump was more negative
and it was a rejection of a Trump more than an embrace of Biden I mean you guys can fight me on it and so this was going to be his win on his accomplishments standing on his own and to have that kind of taken away like I'm just imagining the screenplay that's being written of him in Delaware like the sun going down the side you know and him you know and I'm saying that exactly they like fate it's like that they go back to him like being a John T young man running up the steps of
the Senate like you can see how this story is going to go but it is like it's sad to have your political orbit written before you're ready that's correct what happens a lot it happens but speaking of tech leaders the right wing conspiracy theories are particularly flying around social media that earlier this week it was the Trump shooting Bill
Ackman is doing most of them actually he was saying that there was two shooters and now he's essentially saying Biden doesn't even know he's dropped out of the race because someone is essentially commandeered his Twitter feed and posted a resignation letter with a fake signature it feeds into the narrative of the secret cabal far left Democrats run by Kamala Harris I guess who have been
published the Kamala is both an evil genius you write and can't campaign her way out of a paper box right to switch one of the conspiracy yeah so so as it sounds goofy but so did the birth or conspiracy and it eventually let us to Trump so talk a little bit about the push back from our
publicans which all seem to be conspiracy theories at this moment yeah well if you know anything in any of franken Ashley and I all know this is that like if any they like Kamala was running very little in this white house in part because the the Biden intercor really sort of look down on her you
could argue it's because it was an objective look that they felt like she didn't have the political skills but also I think some of it came from the fact that Biden and has intercor really came from a different sort of world of politics you know and they are very different people with very different
priorities very different sort of mechanisms of politics I mean even just like the states they come from and if you want to get elected to statewide in Delaware you can almost shake every hand of every voter in Delaware like that and that's how Joe Biden ran every
campaign in California you can't do that it's all just about like raising as much money as you can from rich people and then you can't even get a job in the beginning TV ads and you know I think that and I can tell you like you know the the Biden the the
Biden team really put a Kamala Harris to the side and Kamala Harris sort of in in in response basically tried to retreat from any sort of responsibility that was in any way risky and then also was basically said like she was going to do her own thing and protect her
future because the Biden team wasn't in some ways giving her the proper respect which is not unusual for a vice president correct I mean you know I present vice they nothing about the the the president of vice presidential dynamic and this administration was that different from so many others I would actually say like in some ways that the by no one is the stink in the fact that they actually did have like a friendship that in some ways made it made some of these
tensions more emotionally from I just I think that bridge candidate think about that you know like one of the reasons why I think people are so irritated is that they think Biden violated some sort of social contract by going out and saying I'm going to be a bridge to the next generation out of this quote unquote mess that's why you should vote for me basically not acting I think I'll stay I think just being like just kidding and and you know I think the Obama folks can
take some credit for this too like this real disinterest in cultivating the bench and putting them in positions where they can shine because they don't want to be out there's actually there's actually a great bench right now which was one of the frustrations right and part of the reason it was unspoken but why Biden why there was never a discussion of if Biden was only going to run for one term was because at the time he did not believe that Kamala Harris could be
Trump he thought she might be a perfectly good president if she was able to get to the White House but he didn't think she could only he only I can do that neither neither did a lot of his top team and there is a great bench Biden may not deserve we can debate if he deserves credit for cultivating them but that was also some of the frustration once especially once it became clear that Biden is showing signs of
a dream not as agile mentally as physically as he used to be Democrats kind of looked around it said look we could have this vigorous vigorous primary and instead it's you know a couple months before election day
and we're stuck with these three pretty mediocre options right so he was blaming elites to trying to push him out saying that primary voters had spoken even though they didn't really spoken they just they just went with the incumbent essentially the implication it would be undemocratic to force
them out that's the argument republicans are making besides the fact that he shouldn't be president anymore which I think they're going to live to regret if she was president she'd have much higher stature going into the election even for a short time let's hear from everyone how is this
not undemocratic or is this is what political parties do why don't we start with you Franklin I mean I think what's less democratic is trying to prevent Kamala Harris from being on the ballot in various states which is what republicans are pursuing right now I mean if there are mechanisms in place
for when a president decides that he is not up for running for reelection again and in this instance there's a lot of flexibility because political primaries are run by parties and the nominating process is run by parties and parties are democratic in spirit in some sense but they're not
constitutionally provided entities and so it's not it's not amazing that this is happening at the last minute it's not amazing that there was a political primary process that took place many months ago which happened which was not contested in which received very little interest
in attention at the time but it kind of to use a phrase it is what it is and it's not undemocratic it's not democratic it's just where we're at anyone else I'm going to disagree just a little bit with Frank and I would just say like listen like Joe Biden didn't just decide that he's not capable
right Joe Biden unwillingly like Joe Biden really wanted to stay in this race he made that very clear the last three and a half weeks he was he was driven out of this race by the democratic party that decided that he was not the best candidate at the top you had Nancy Pelosi Chuck Schumer
Hakeem Jeffries and in subtle ways Barack Obama and many of their aids basically say time is up and in some ways like that that that is undemocratic that they you know the sort of old political science expression the party decides the party did decide that's what one Biden aid told me the party
did decide and Biden as a good soldier for the democratic party decided to go along with those orders although to disagree with Alex slightly saying the party and saying the party decided sort of makes it seem as if the you know a secret insider swampy cabal with no agency from voters
and what's interesting was it actually took the party a long time to catch up with voters and when the Biden White House would yell at reporters for reporting on his age or saying he'd slow down the main reason we were doing that was because we're hearing that one year two years ago
from voters I would go out after the dobs decision to want to talk to voters about what what did they think of reproductive rights and they wanted to tell me about how old Biden was there were Republicans who didn't even want to trash him because they felt bad for him
Republicans and Trump rallies who wanted him to just get taken care of by his family and they weren't being snarky it was quite earnest and there were Democrats who liked him liked his presidency would show up in vote for him against Trump no matter what his physical condition but we heard this from the voters way before we heard this from the party and I know what's the argument for undemocratic I mean look I think as soon as like George Clooney ways in people are going to be a little bit
biased right I don't know go sell a villa like when you jump in here now feels a little bit late and I think people are going to be resentful of that obviously Biden was but at the end of the day I think what's fascinating about this moment is so much of it was self-inflicted
you know like voters were saying in polls forever we don't like either of these candidates it's just been the most that's the winner so far it's like I don't like these people and I don't like having this choice and then the debate the debate didn't have to happen
didn't have to happen that early Biden's people wanted that so it's just you know if you're going to go out there you you got to perform and at the end of the day like he didn't do it now it was it mind-boggling to watch like the power of Nancy Pelosi and all these other figures having as you guys said this very above deck below deck public conversation she was quite explicit I didn't she was explicit I'll never watch Morning Joe the same way again it's like this is just audience of one
but at the same time it just feels like it didn't have to be this way I do want to add one other thing because I think two things are true at once which is that I feel like anybody who got out of bed and went to their primary to vote in the Democratic primary this last year and decided they wanted
Biden Harris I don't think they're the voter that's like just Biden though right that's fair that's crazy you didn't even have to get out of bed it was not really contested so if you did it you probably also are fine with Harris
right right right and you knew that there was going to be an 86 year old president which meant that the vice president you might have had hair you might have had hair it's correct we'll be back in a minute what if you could remember everything everything you said everything you did
everything other people said and did around you everything you ate everything you watched everywhere you went what if you could remember all of it on this episode of the verga cast brought to you by meta we explore how AI might make that possible and what it might mean to be a person in a world where nobody forgets anything ever again that's the verga cast anywhere you get podcasts support for on with carousel shirt comes from Miro you and your team have just come out
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huge last week in the christwav show I said you don't understand how much money common Harris has access to she has it don't interrupt my heavy rich friends
like Elon Musk. Kamal Harris has at least 10 of them like Lauren Powell jobs I'm guessing the linda gates Cheryl Samber their more women than men but there's read Hoffman there's wrong calm way people this is intact this is just a tech which is good to hear because I've read so many trend stories about Silicon Valley knowing conservative they're not so I don't mean good for connolly just mean I'm I'm having a tough time understanding where Silicon Valley is it's
only it's only 10 largely white guys who are really loud essentially but how how big was that a role actually actually talk about that the money part obviously money runs everything correct right well that I mean that was one of the
pressure points to get Biden out these Democrats coming out and and freezing their money and freezing pledged funds that they hadn't actually given yet was one of the things they could do to force him out and they did that right they did that anyone else on the money I think I was hearing from a lot
of them they were they were yeah embargo I mean this is going to be the most fascinating donor month in Democratic politics in a long time because you're basically going to see almost no donations for the first three weeks and then you're going to see a ton of donations just for the last week of the month like that this last week of July there's going to be this huge rush of money but like to Ashley's point I mean they I don't I'm you know you could even sort of
refer to it sort of as blackmail right where like the biggest donors the Democratic party were basically like we're not going to give to you anymore unless you ditch Biden and this wasn't just to the presidential ticket this was down ballot to like donors were putting pressure on down
ballot Democrats saying you can't and like embrace Biden this was in some ways we were talking about like Democratic elites forcing by now it was also a Democratic elite don't rich people yeah one renaissance did that everyone was like wow Cara and I'm like what do you think he do that's how we they operate that's how they all operate rather explicitly one kind of walkish point about the big the high roller donors designed to appeal to Cara is that you
did hear among the billionaire class in Silicon Valley on Wall Street a lot of hostility towards Biden that was actually based on his record and based on installing Lena Khan at the FTC and being more aggressive on mergers and in that hostility I think informs some of the hostility that they had towards Biden headed into this moment and one interesting question about Harris is that Harris is that her economics are a little bit more of an open question that
her record as California AG and as a senator such as existed she she comes from California and doesn't have a lot of the same hostility they like her there big tech that Joe Biden had she has a JD this has come out to be like I like Khan like mergers no they're called Americans they're called conservatives yeah exactly so it's sort of a topsy turvy yeah a bit of politics in this moment I will tell you because Kamala Harris is well liked by tech people but not but she they don't
think she's a pushover either I think I think it's kind of a mixed bag so let's talk very quickly about President Biden's legacy so I think it's important and frankly I want you to when here historians look back what will they see as his biggest wins and fails or anything he didn't get tension it deserved at the time that will be consequential I mean I think we have to say that everything will be seen through the lens of this election so if the bungled transition to Kamala
Harris in the bungled process of not sign that you're on culminates in a Trump presidency that is the lens through which he is judged full stop but I think that if we look back at the Biden record I think that it is enough he did run an effective presidency where he navigated a rolling series of crises beginning with covid where he gets exceedingly little credit and within six months it was possible to stroll into a CBS and get a shot in your arm which is
really one of the most incredible things that government has ever done and that type of technocratic achievement gets no respect from voters but then you look at other big things like the ways in which he helped usher in a new age of democratic economics we just talked about Lena Khan and the you know the way in which the government is acted much more aggressively against big tech the way in which he was the first president to walk a union picket line and brought
prestige to a rising union movement and the way in which the chips act ushered in an age of industrial policy where government plays a very different role in directing the trajectory of the economy where it's much more like an investment bank making these huge bets on some mic inductors and clean energy so that America accomplishes other goals but also controls the commanding heights of the industries of the future that's a big big deal yes no he's
much more consequential than the one administration already uh Alex and then Ashley I think that there's a reason why everyone's using the word consequential and not saying best which is subjective in a different way I think that there's no two ways about it it's always going to be marked in the
story of who he is that he is a president who you know stepped away after one term it's always going to be a mark that he was vice president to the first black president and had the first black female the first woman vice president these things are always going to be markers in terms of his
achievements I am interested to see if he could become a Carter kind of character where at first it's it's not sounding so good right the way people talk about you yeah and over time you grow in a kind of stature and I think he
has that opportunity as well yeah uh Ashley yeah I mean legislation is not always sexy but just even what he was able to push through big muscular legislation with a pretty narrowly divided Congress with a lot of Republicans who sort of only ideological goal was stopping Joe Biden he did
a ton um he also you know the economy with a lot of indicators is doing quite well now politically for him the problem is interest rates are still high in those markers that people feel every day right like the cost of food that doesn't feel good what people vote on but the economy could be in a lot
worse position Trump had you know 2000 infrastructure weeks Biden actually passed an infrastructure bill and when the Ukraine when Russia invaded Ukraine I was covering that at the time and Biden was able to incredibly quickly kind of marshal the world and strengthen NATO against Russia
which was hardly forgone no we are yeah all right Alex I think the first land of his narrative is just going to be whether or not Trump returns or not which is sort of Frank's point is is he just this sort of you know pause in between two Trump terms or was he sort of the escape hatch from from
Trumpism and you know the fact that he ran again when there were people around him or people administration that weren't sure if he could serve another term could end up being sort of the you know a very damning in you know it and be very treated treated very harshly in history
I mean it's sort of this this this great virtue of his ability to bounce back and never quit which Frank talked about before which kind of being a tragic flaw if he ends up losing because he didn't quit in time if Trump wins now maybe this will all work out and actually like he is going to be remembered as the guy that helped us sure you know that to help beat back Trumpism right all right so let's look forward to that wait as I can care I want to ask you
sure it does is there does anyone's story matter as much as Trump's right now in terms of history right like when people look back on this period he's what no actually is the story and everyone else is a footnote in the story true but I do think if Biden does manage to get him twice that would be a
consequential achievement on his part like by stepping down like by winning and then stepping down and winning like I feel you preserve sort of you know he fell on the sword kind of thing it's not quite George Washington is it but it's it's a giving to me giving up the presidency is something else
that is a tough you know everyone was like why is he being so stubborn like he's the president he took his whole life to get here you kidding me he likes to run he likes the MNM 7 right yeah right he's run once a decade until he finally got it
so president don't give up their jobs yeah that really happens to see the road why would you will be back in a minute is the Democratic Party more or less like a win in November without Joe Biden on top of the ticket at this moment in time let's start franklin Ashley
Audi and then Alex since there was very there was no scenario with which Biden could reverse that disastrous debate performance I mean I think any alternative would make it more likely because it gives the Democrats a fresh start the party certainly thinks they have a better chance with someone
other than Joe Biden despite numerous numerous numerous concerns about Kamala Harris which is one of the things that delayed this for so long too early to say to look the week we just had is so bonkers like you don't remember there was an attempted assassination next week
aliens are landing I cannot tell you what the last 25 days were so nuts that I cannot venture to guess the next 25 all right now you have to guess no I was just going to say the same thing is ony so I'm just going to hedge and not say anything can we can any of you point with scenario with
which Biden was able to rebound and beat Trump given the debate performance given his poll numbers given everything else oh I think you could have well just because I think Joe Biden at 110 years old still gets 40% of the vote in this Trump era like I I think actually there was a world
where even though people didn't think that he could serve another four years they still would have been like I like I'm sure yeah there was a lot of people that were really good at this but I think it's let's risky yeah I see that there were polls showing there wasn't a path right
especially if you look at the specific battleground say it's blah blah blah did the country have a wild swing were all of a sudden it was 60 for you know like that just didn't happen I don't think it ever will we are still voting on concepts not people values not people it's still very red versus
so to Alex's point there's a world in which those people return to the tribe on election day right so so right now the worries about Harris of course are sides not being the greatest politician yet hasn't shown herself though I suspect she she she was she hasn't made a misstep
since the debate she was probably the best defense of Biden of anybody and there were a lot of good ones but right now it looks like she will be the the nominee and apparently Joe Manchin said he's not running I know we're all waiting to see if he would look he had a great 10 hours while he was I know exactly really oh man sit down and do see I'll make your ill gotten gains and enjoy your rest of your life as a fat cat before Biden stepped down a lot
of Democrats were worried that if Biden got pushed out that it would lead to chaos so so one Ashley I love you how did it coalesce so quickly around her around her from your perspective it's a great question I was frankly surprised just how quickly how just within these past 24 hours just
about every single person who might have run against her has come out and said they're not running they support her you know the conventional wisdom but I heard it from so many people that it might be true was there was also a sense within the party that it would be very hard
to bypass I mean talk about a Democratic or party insiders to bypass a historic first woman black Asian American vice presidential candidate for someone else who frankly hasn't been tested either right and as Axelrod says you know presidential campaign is an MRI for the
soul I mean I even think of Whitmer there was all this fanfare around here that's not to say she wouldn't be a great candidate but her gridiron speech was eh meh right like you don't know these people so to bypass Kamala for someone else a white guy who might implode is just unsustainable I will
also in terms of her flaws very briefly because Alex is also on this podcast and we are both former Maureen Dowd assistants share it Maureen but one thing of of all for flaws one thing that she has a lot of growth to a lot of areas where she performs better than Biden or has the potential
to but one thing Maureen said that always struck with stuck with me is the people who win have staff and have loyalists who are willing to crawl through glass with them right and when I covered early Obama those kids it was a point of pride if you were the number two higher and I or the number four higher New Hampshire because they had turned down Ivy League law school or big consulting jobs to work for this guy who they didn't think he could win but they
just believed in so to me of all the criticisms I hear of her the one that I think maybe has the most residents is that the rate at which she has just churned through staff and very few people from the AG followed her from to the Senate very few people to the Senate to the campaign very few people to the campaign to the VP's office and then she's had an almost full overhaul that I think is the biggest question for me although I have to say I that has been well
known obviously yes I think I'm waiting for the Amy Klobuchar comb moment here but the stories are hard to get on the right but then actually this is why we're befuddled right it's like so the person who's known for not I know I was like who's doing this ran the tightest of ships on Sunday yeah so who is I kept thinking is that someone else who shows that Biden people like why did that fall into place well I actually think Biden endorsing comla was more reflection
of how Biden was feeling at that moment than like comla comla politics I mean I also think like comah Harris was new from the very beginning from the in operation the her main task was she was gonna hug Joe Biden as tightly as possible they were clearly like staff you know staff wars and such but like publicly she was always there and also like you know Nancy Pelosi made it clear that she wanted an open process while she's also pushing out Joe Biden and
Joe Biden was like well I'll drop out but I'm not going to the open process right right well someone did a good job I don't love the narrative people have that's like you can't throw her off she's a black woman that always makes me think of
like well you can't fire this person because vague sense of DEI concerns and values that someone somewhere being attacked by yeah which of course we're gonna hear a lot of it I think there's an also and which is I'm sorry who's gonna raise a hundred million dollars by September who has even called a
single state chair to be I mean Joe mansion for God's sakes he had to call up and be like oh yeah also I'll register to be a Democrat again like I've never done the most basic step and it just seems so weird that people obviously there's there are as a grassroots movement active black and
brown women who support her also and it is not clear to me that other candidates were actually prepared to stand up a campaign a billion dollar campaign and they didn't they just know they had a jet but people are just sort of like we can't do that like also you have no one else it was striking
like what if you watch like a lot of Fox News like the first year of the Biden administration it was that Kamala was the master puppeteer of the entire Biden administration controlling everything and eventually they shifted to that she's a DEI incompetent you know diversity well they'll try a lot
of stuff I mean the other one just to tie two points together sure I mean one of the most obviously blatantly racist memes about her that you see emanating from Fox News is that she is lazy which is I think part of the reason she's had so much staff turnover is because she is demanding that when
she prepares for an interview or public appearance she does she a does not want to go out and make a mistake because she's been punished for making mistakes and I would just report new ways before and so she works her staffs ass off in a way that becomes untenable for them and drives them crazy
because in also schedules end up getting ripped up because they're always getting drawn into prep sessions yeah also coming from a woman it's harder for people it just is less your lesbian and then you get a pass in any case
there there is an argument though that the Trump groups are making I've noticed recently is that she besides the master puppeteer or incompetent DEA hire is that she kept his decline from the country this is an argument they're testing out a lot of things but this is what I'm saying over the testing
happened in real time people like how's this talking point I don't know try this other one yeah congruence that's okay is that is that an effective one anybody I'm curious if it's effective well I was going to say also say that I'm not sure if it's effective voters but I do think it's also something
she's going to have to answer for whenever she starts doing tough interviews is that she was the main public validator of Biden's mental fitness especially after the Robert her report earlier this year that raised questions she was way out there and she has not really sat for a tough
interview about those things I don't know voters care but as a reporter I care yeah okay so audio you recently said of her is she's not a strong candidate a lot of ways and you also said that quote she doesn't have a constituency fighting for I don't agree with that a little bit no they've
risen up they've risen up is back check your memes she's all over tick talk because now she's a thing right because I think that's what happens what happens to the answer so what is her what is her strengths and weaknesses as a campaigner from your perspective because you were skeptical I
would say I don't know her strengths and weakness as a campaigner let me take that back I think there are new strengths and weaknesses for her since she has stepped into the vice presidency meaning when the Dobbs decision came down and she decided I'm going to go out and
talk about abortion all right you guys don't want me to do this I like I'm going to go out and have that conversation and do it in multiple places she was doing that the kids noticed when she gave her speech at Selma she said by the way cease firing Gaza maybe for a couple of weeks but like
she said it out loud before Biden did and the kids noticed wait Kamala is out here talking about the children in Gaza and now in terms of defending Joe Biden she did what she was supposed to do I actually think that there are many people who are far more out there than her and I think
there's going to be a collective responsibility for the party I have a hard time seeing her being the one given Clyburn and Bernie Sanders and whoever but I think that she has some strengths and that she actually has spent the last year and a half being out there talking specifically
to and about the voters that they were most worried about and even now this week her original schedules that she was going to be in Wisconsin and it was going to be her fifth trip right right it was like she's doing this stuff that again those other candidates out there potential
fantasy football Democrat candidates they aren't doing and she also turned the coconut thing around you she didn't do it on purpose but the internet turned around for her now she's she'll be interesting to see Trump is popular and Biden really suffered on tiktok especially because of the Gaza
policy and I think that now it'll be interesting to see will these influencers come back because remember they care about engagement not to say they're cynical but they care about engagement and if the engagement on her is very positive get ready for an algorithm that's a lot of dancing head
exactly it's it's it's it we need to remember that the even before the debate the Biden campaign was kind of a disaster it was unable to articulate arguments for itself or against its opponent in any sort of way that had any sort of staying power and I think the appeal of Kamala
Harris in theory at least is that because she's a prosecutor because she's has she's coming at you straight that she's coming straight and that she can make an argument and right and yeah she doesn't have to define herself she just has to define Trump in a way that will be disqualifying and if she
can do that that could make the she's she's a prosecutor he is now a convicted felon she used the in 2020 she also used the same argument of prosecute the case against Trump her challenge there was she had a tough time beyond articulating a case against him articulating what she was doing
and I'm articulating what she affirmatively stood for and I'm curious what other people think but now when the entire democratic party all they care for is being against Trump with 105 days left until election day maybe that is a short enough window where she can just make the case against Trump
that is sufficient and she has to mean something she has to mean and talking to her allies they did say you should view prosecute the cases broader than just against a convicted felon right they said it's prosecute the case on a productive right take it to him in a way that Joe Biden couldn't or
wouldn't and she can also less than prosecute her skill she can simplify down complicated topics in an easily understandable way and a number of people pointed to her appearance at the essence festival where she talked about Supreme Court's immunity decision which is kind of complicated and
connected to the country be consistent under scrutiny this is the thing from the campaign period that I wonder about it's like when she doesn't have a single dismission like what is she going to be like we actually don't know Trump is on true social complaining that his campaign spent money and effort running against Biden and mocking the president Monday morning he wrote it's a new day and Joe Biden doesn't remember quitting the race yesterday he's still talking
about Joe Biden he's attacked Harris and says she'll be easy to defeat and Biden I think that's a tell on everything how is the Trump campaign reacting Franklin I mean we ran a piece in the Atlantic by my colleague Tim Alberta which made the case that there was this
Trump apparatus that would that had been built for one purpose which was to be Donald Trump and that the thing that causes them pause is that Biden was somebody that they'd managed to define but the Democrats headed into this election have certain advantages that they were weren't able to
realize when Biden was at the top of the ticket and then suddenly you switch it up and you have a fresh candidate then suddenly some of those latent democratic advantages as it comes to kind of the attacks on Trump or the underlying economic conditions of the country or whatever it is start to to to go back to the Democrats that's the fresh start.
The two things they're going to try to do are they're going to try to tie her as much to Joe Biden as possible because to Frank's point the the Trump campaign that designed this campaign to it to beat Joe Biden so they're going to try to basically make her one the same in addition to that
they're going to try to basically take whatever the playbook was to run against Kamala Harris had she won the nomination in 2020 which is honestly her electability as part of the reason why Joe Biden and winning they're going to try to basically do both and I don't know if that's going to be effective because it's a little bit muddled they're going to try to attack her as like a left wing not plus also like a Joe Biden's legacy. I think they're just going to tear apart I think it's
going to be a big character thing. Yeah. I think they're going to take advantage of every nasty meme that's out there about her and amplify it. She got it because she got it effectively. Effectively. Do you think I think it will be effective but I am a cynical person. So to me I'm like if a black woman can't be president of Harvard Godspeed but I also think that she wants to run on Biden's record and she can distance herself from the mistakes
but like that's not going to be the catch. I think the catch is going to be challenge every step of this. Make Democrats talk about it for the next hundred days whether it's legal is it a coup? Is he okay? Should he resign? Just muddy the waters with a lot of nonsense and create reasonable doubt. It's not about affirmatively doing something against her. It's just make it so that you start to think well these Democrats I don't know what's going on. Right exactly. It's going to be. One thing about
the age issue is that there were she's younger. She is younger. I think that's that's. And one of those we can debate that. Yeah. Yeah. She's 112 and yeah.
But there were you look at things like the crime numbers and there ways in which Biden if he was just making a data driven case for himself could claim successes in all these areas where Republicans are getting a lot of voting failure but because Biden is old nobody would have believed them they believe that the world was spinning out of control and that there was nobody who was actually in charge. And so if she's able to both call on the data and project strength there's a possibility
for neutralizing some of the main attacks. I think this is where the running mate comes in. There are a lot of jokes about it. Bouncy on Twitter about how you're going to be a very friendly white man, a friendly white line as for VP. You know, a dry a dry white, a fruity white, whatever. The idea that she has to be very strategic about her choice obviously. Ashley is that true? So the the Trump people talking to them at the RNC last week are most concerned about Josh Shapiro.
Now I don't know that that's who she's going to pick for a lot of that might not make sense but that's who they are most concerned about. And I was just struck by and have been thinking of looking into this further. All those memes you've mentioned right like they show a bunch of frat boys at a game and say these are the faces
Kamala is considering for her running mate. The wines it it I think again it's the conventional wisdom I think at the end of the day she probably does choose a white running mate and she probably does choose a white male running mate. And I was kind of curious like what is it what does it say about society that when you have a black woman at the top of the ticket that it is almost just a foregone given that nobody even says it's racist in sexist but go ahead.
Yeah, I mean I guess that is what it says but I was just kind of struck by I have not heard a single voice of descent of well she might choose this woman or she would just put her on there and just let it fly but it's too big a risk I think she's not a risk she's a risk of her person from
It's not just that like past is prologue yeah like Barack Obama had Joe Biden specifically for the same exact reason yeah like oh So that's experience Your mind does not think of it that way of course of course he doesn't but that was I was going to get on the
ticket and talk to the parts of the country that might be reluctant and something something Pennsylvania like that was the But in the year 2024 don't you think maybe it shouldn't be so foregone that it has to be a white man if you haven't been paying attention to
2022 2023 and 2024 how trained kiss so this election really comes down to two or three states right so we're talking and two of the Vice presidential contenders come from to the states that will determine the election so if you make a calculation that Whitmer or Shapiro can buy you a point or like you know a half a point in One of these states that will determine the election I think that trumps all other considerations so it's not wildly impossible to me that she picks Whitmer because
Michigan matters and that which winners pop you want to have a beer with her and the vice president doesn't matter that much in terms of the aggregate Some of things and so you have to think very strategically
Matters for the first woman. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I'll just say as a reporter not a political strategist I mean Whitmer would be the most fast saving story especially given the contrast with Trump just has RNC where he's introduced by Hulk Hogan and the head of the like ultimate fighting championship like all testosterone And like picking Whitmer would be like okay, let's make this boy versus girls in the aftermath of the adoptive decision
And really make this election like a fascinating story and reflection of America Well Whitmer said she's not leaving Michigan that said I bet she would if she did So last question for each of you very quickly Ashley you start what would should be her motto Kamala Harris's motto I think it's going to be probably Kamala Harris for the people again what she did for the 2020
Oh, oh my god, I'm not good at models. On the internet I saw some women had chopped the Biden off the top of their sign And so it just said Harris and I think that's it Okay, all right Alex I think what's what it's going to be is finish the job and she's just going to continue to run the Biden record Because I think to your point I think she's proud of the Biden record but there is going to be some risk there
A lot of people have thought that the only reason Biden wasn't winning is because of his age And what happens if you remove the age and people actually don't like the Biden record Right, Franklin Yeah, youth, vigor, energy You're all wrong, which should be
I didn't just fall out of a coconut tree and then do a dance, that's how I know Anyway, I really appreciate you guys, what a fascinating time, it's too bad there's not more news around for all of you to chew over And I really, truly appreciate it, this was really helpful And thank you so much
Thanks, you're the best On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Roselle, Cateri Yokem, Jolly Myers and Megan Bernie Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Kate Verbi and Kaelin Lynch Our engineers are Rick Kwan, Fernando Aruda and Alia Jackson And our theme music is by Tracodemics
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Thanks for listening to on with Cara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us We'll be back on Thursday with a new episode of on If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York Magazine I'm Corey Seeker and I'm here with Reeves Wideman who has written about the American obsession with NDAs Where did they come from? Why are they everywhere? And are they good for anything besides covering up for abusers?
After you've poked around at NDAs for a while, do you see NDAs used mostly as tools of abuse and coercion? You see positive results like where did you land on NDAs? I think in most situations it is used as a way to sort of claim power but not even necessarily to do a bad thing It's just kind of it is this now the sort of boring standard tool in the toolbox of corporations or powerful people But now it's being used on the people at the bottom
It's the warehouse workers at Amazon being made to sign them or like I was just trawling job listings while doing this story And there were NDAs for forklift drivers and like people working in butcher shops And I think on the one hand it's just kind of like well I might as well There's no downside for me to do this but it is also just another way that you sort of keep your employees Or people you get into a relationship with that you sort of keep your thumb on them
So I do think it is at the end of the day the people who are giving them out by and large are trying to control someone Do you think that they're going to become standard for like literally every interaction in job interview and possibly relationship as well or do you think they're just finally going to die or become outlawed? Like where do we go from here?
You know it was corporations first then it was celebrities then it was just rich people who aren't famous but they also want to protect their privacy The next frontier is people like you and me and are we going to start giving them to their partners? You know I think some people are going to start experimenting with it. It doesn't take much to go online, download a free NDA and without even consulting a lawyer and hand it over to someone.
I did as a joke, send one to my girlfriend. She hasn't signed it yet but I at least sent it. So that's Reeves Widermint who may or may not be single soon. You can read his work on NDAs in our beautiful print magazine in your own home or on nymag.com slash lineup.