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Hi everyone from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is On with Kara Swisher and I'm Kara Swisher. It's been just over weeks since President Biden announced he would not be seeking a second term. A lot of questions remain about how the decision was made and what it means. The GOP is calling it a coup from the upper echelon of the Democratic Party. Many, as I talked about on Thursday, are blaming rich donors.
Ron Cling, I thought, was interesting in one of the first comments. One of the first comments, he's like going after all these big donors. These big donors played a role in Joe Biden becoming Democratic nominee in 2020, winning the election in 2020. And now he's talking like Trump, he's talking like these evil rich people are forcing him out of the race. It was a spicy tweet. I was like, drop the spicy what's going on.
Well today we have Ron Cling here himself. The New York Times calls Cling one of the three men at the core of Biden's quote, brain trust. Their relationship goes back nearly 40 years to when Cling was still a student at Harvard and worked for then Senator Biden. By the time he was vice president Biden, Cling had moved up to VP Chief of Staff. He hasn't always worked in politics. There were private sector jobs, including at Revolution LLC, where he overlap briefly with Trump's VP pick JD Vance.
Ron Cling is everywhere and there are other politicians. He did a stint with Biden's then rival Hillary Clinton. That didn't go over well. But by 2020 Cling was back on the team and became president Biden's Chief of Staff. Cling left the White House in 2023. In this past January, he joined Airbnb as Chief Legal Officer. The spring Cling announced he was taking time off from his new job for his old boss to help Biden prep for the debate.
Yes, that disastrous history changing debate. The fall it was huge as we know, but until the end Cling was rallying for Biden in the press. All the while trying to dodge accusations flying at him for the debate disaster and questions about whether he and other insiders had been covering up Biden's true condition. So we're going to ask him about all of that and we'll also talk about tech.
As a full disclosure, I've known Ron Cling since I was in college where we both worked for the Hoya at Georgetown University. He was on the business side. I was of course the star reporter. Our expert question today comes from someone who knows Ron very well too, Jen Socky, host of Inside with Jen Socky, who reported to Cling when she was Biden's White House press secretary. Thank you for being on Ron. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Curitam.
So I've had you on so many times. We talked about Ebola, then we talked about your legacy as a chief of staff to President Biden when you left a couple of years ago. But so let's start about talking about President Biden's legacy. The phrase, most consequential presidency has been thrown around so much. It's become sort of wrote, but I think it's true. So I'd love you to sort of go through why you think that is and the most important accomplishments of his administration has been.
Well, look, it's not over yet. It's not over yet. And let historians make the final judgment here, of course. But I think if you look at what he brought the country through and what he achieved legislatively, I think they are enormously a consequential achievements. And you start with the fact he brought us through the pandemic and brought America back to life.
He took our economy and now we have the strongest economy in the world after having lost manufacturing jobs and lost jobs in the last administration. Now we have record job creation, record small business creation, booming economy. As he said in his address, he's, you know, the time he came to office, people thought it was just a matter of time before China would surpass us as an economy. And now I don't think anyone really forecast that our economy is robust and growing.
Rebus tech sector, robust manufacturing sector. I think his economic legacy is very, very strong that way. In addition to that, he made progress on climate change with passing the sweeping climate change legislation we've ever seen. This led to our revolution in clean energy in our country and tremendous progress. And putting us back at the lead of, of combating climate change. And also his, the rest of his domestic agenda and his course is global agenda.
Unexpectedly being able to beat back Russian aggression in Ukraine. And actually growing NATO at a time when people thought NATO would shrink. So I think you look at that. I think they're very consequential achievements. His appointments, he's transforming the federal courts. He's put more judges on the federal courts than three years in any president ever. And with record diversity.
And it's not just in three years, he's appointed more black women to the public courts than any president in history. It's in three years, he's put more black women on the public courts than every single president in history combined before him. So I think, I think, you know, there's, there's long standing changes he's brought about that will with, with us for long after he's brought up. After he leaves the White House. And I think those are largely changes for the good.
We will talk about where the rest of administration is going because he's still got six months. It's a long time in the president's public. But back in 2020, when he was running for president, people mocked him for talking about bipartisanship. Of course, things have gotten worse, I would say, probably. Yeah. But then he became president. He did get the $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill passed with 69 votes in the Senate. The chips act got 64 votes.
The foreign aid bill, which sent money to Ukraine. And also, Banticktock got 79 votes. Can you talk about getting bipartisan support in the face of so much partisan by all that's just built up and never seems to end? Well, I think the keys to it are one, he started off with relationships with people on the hill. He knew how to work with Mitch McConnell. I thought they agreed on very many things, but he found places where they agreed.
And was able to strike deals with him on things like infrastructure and chips and the PAC DAC to help veterans. And so I think that he found the deals where they were. And he had endless patience for talking to Republicans. And it never took it personally. When he would meet with him on one issue, they'd go out and blast him on 10 other issues. He just kept plowing ahead. So I think you need relationships. You need patience and persistence. And you do pretty thick skin.
And President Biden brought all that to the Oval Office. And I think had great success as a result. So when you look back, what's the one thing you wish you could have accomplished? So it was impossible. For example, at the State of the Union address in March, Biden promised he would restore Roe vs. Way as a law of the land again. That's a direct quote from him. Is that something you wish to take in steps to codify abortion rights before the DOBS decision?
Or is there anything that you think about and then we'll pivot to what could happen in the next six months? Well, look, I think that trying to codify abortion rights before the DOBS decision would have been very, very hard. People said, why are we doing this? Roe vs. Way has been the law of the land for 50 years. These guys all testified before the Sen. judiciary community. They weren't going to reverse precedent. And so I think we'd be very hard to round up the votes to do that.
I think the thing that we came close to doing but didn't get there on was voting rights reform and protecting voting rights. And we just couldn't get Senator Matches, Senator Sen. But to go along with Philobuster Reform to get that done, I think that's the thing that was like, I regret we didn't get done. I thought it was doable. I think it's going to take a different Congress and the Post-Obsera to pass a bill to restore Roe's the law of the land. Hopefully we'll get that done.
So when you think about what to come, he's got six months. I'm going to talk about how he stepping down in the implications historically and in the immediate. But he's got six months to go forward. He wasn't particularly specific in his speech of what he was going to do. It's in the backdrop of an election. So he's got to also be careful because he doesn't want to hurt whoever is the nominee, which looks like it's going to be Kamala Harris.
Can you talk a little bit about what can someone do in the position he's in right now? I was just interviewing Nancy Pelosi and she noted that when Lincoln did the emancipation proclamation, it was an executive action. Right? It was not. It wasn't legislative. So there's a lot of power in the last couple of months of anyone's administration. Well, I think he has used his executive power throughout his tenure. And I think it'll continue to do so.
But I think, look, I think he's going to also stake out some ground. And whether it gets done or not, they'll be ground. He stakes out. So I think he's going to be the first president ever to call for Supreme Court reform since FDR. And I think he'll do that next week. And I think that won't get done during his term. But I think it will lay a path forward. I think he can do that. I think he continue to press on gun control.
I don't expect it to pass this year, give him a public control of the House. But I think, you know, continue to make the case for why we were able to ban the sawpins in the 1990s and how many lives that saved. I think we'll help set up for possible progress next year. How obviously you have to continue to monitor and support Ukraine and its defense against Russia. Make sure he's keeping NATO together around that.
And I think there'll be other issues where he can make a difference in the next six months. Is there anything he can do that is significant? Because, you know, the more lame duck is there for a reason. But is there anything significant he can do, especially in the backdrop of the presidential election? What would you advise if you were chief of staff? Well, I think, you know, he talked last night in his remarks about trying to bring down prices for everyday Americans.
I think there's things he can do on the competition front. And, you know, to try to make sure we're continuing to proceed to bring down prices. I think that he's going to have to continue to work again. I think that's significant on the war in Europe. And hopefully bring peace to the Middle East. I think there's a lot he can do there where we could end the war in Gaza and put things on a track for more reconciliation between Israel and its Arab neighbors.
And hopefully a two-state solution in Israel. So I think there's progress you can make on all those things that would be his story. So there's still significant power in his office now? Yes. From your perspective. I think so, yes. We'll be back in a minute. Support for On with Cara Swisher comes from Delete May. What do you do when you get one of those data breach emails? They all say something like Company X or website Y was breached and your data may be compromised.
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I know we'll get to your support of him because you were quite adamant on Twitter. In fact, I texted you like, wow, Ron, you were pretty sharp about him. Talk a little bit about what's happened and how you feel about it first.
Well, look, I think the president made a decision that he couldn't keep the party unified and that he wasn't just going to walk off the field and say, well, you guys sorted out, he was going to point the direction forward and that direction pointed very clearly towards vice president Harris. And so I think that was a sound wise decision and I think he's executed it extremely well.
You see the vice president merging in very short order as the consensus nominee of our party with strong backing, a lot of enthusiasm. I think that's great. Look, I believe as he said last night, he earned a second term, he stoned his record and the vision he laid out in Michigan recently for what his 100-day agenda would be as president. So I was disappointed that people in the party called from believe the
race. And I thought they got out of control. I thought it was unfortunate, nasty and public and shouldn't have been. And as I said, several people who didn't hesitate to call the White House when they were a couple of points behind in their races asking for help to win. We never said, hey, you're behind. You should drop out and get someone new in there. I thought they were doing
him a disservice. But I think he handled it incredibly graciously and came up with a plan that is going to work for us in 2024 of handing the baton very explicitly to the vice president and throwing his campaign organization as campaign resources behind her. And I think we're headed in the right direction now. So I don't really love how we got here, but I think we're in a good place. We're going to move forward. We're going to win this year.
I want to stick with how we got here at first because obviously the debate is what caused it. There were always questions about whether he was able to do four more years. Age was always an issue for both candidates. Let me say, but it seemed to resonate more with him, with the public and with media, because also, let's talk about that as it was leading into it. Had you been worried about that before the age issue or is it something you didn't think would would cause this to happen?
Well, look, I'm a warrior. I worry about every debate. I've been on the winning side of debates, losing side of debates. It's no fun to lose. And you know, President Obama had a very bad debate in 2012. And I thought overall, I thought that debate was an opportunity for the president to put some of these questions to rest, but obviously did not go well that night. And that is what it is. And so we took a gamble and the gamble didn't work. But I thought it was a reasonable chance to take.
I thought the president, as he showed in the days after the debate, was fully capable of making his case forcefully on the stump. Fully capable of answering unscripted questions as he did his press conference. I thought we would see that on debate night. And we just didn't, of course. So, let me tell you, I think this is unfair. You oversaw the preparation for the debate. People don't know. And I feel like you got thrown under the bus a little bit, honestly.
And the reports, it ultimately is the candidate's fault in that case. But you may not blame him. But to me, that's the case. The reports, the family blamed you. John Morgan, Biden donor, was said he was overcoach over practice. Jim Clyburn, representative, blamed him on preparation overload. What do you think happened there from your perspective? Look, I didn't feel thrown under the bus. The president was very kind afterwards and took responsibility in our conversations
about it. And I said he'd had a bad night and told me not to not to feel bad about it. I think that, you know, I think that he just was off. I think that, you know, I think Trump is always a challenge to debate because he spews out so much craziness. You have to figure out which piece of craziness you respond to, which ones you're going to let go. And I think the president also believed that the public would see Trump and realize how ridiculous it was and that a lot of it
was kind of self-executing and it just wasn't. And so I think that, you know, look, I think I'll take my share of responsibilities. I've always been, we win debates. I'm happy to get credit for our wins. I assume I'm happy to share responsibility for our defeats. But I just think he was off that night and wasn't very good that night. And that's what he said. And it just worked out unfortunately. So the same time it brought up this idea as whether he was in good health or not,
whether he was in good mental health. Obviously top advisors got blamed for this, the preparation itself, and also not being transparent that he wasn't able to campaign effectively. How do you answer those critics? Look, what I say is look at what he did after the debate. So speech north Carolina next morning was powerful and effective. He did an interview with George Steffan Opposite. I thought it was very good. He did a foreign policy press conference. I thought it
was superb. A tour to force about foreign policy. He then went to Michigan and laid out an agenda for the first 100 days of a second term. I thought it was a powerful agenda. Got a great response at the end of the ACP convention. And so I think the proof that he could campaign was that he did campaign and campaign very effectively. The idea that somehow people weren't transparent about his state of his health or the state of his acuity. I think it's belied by the fact that the
president did events all the time. And you know, I understand there was a lot of viewership, but he went into the Roosevelt room a couple of times a week. We'd make a policy announcement. We'll take questions from the press corps. And yes, as he said, the next day in North Carolina, he does speak a little more slowly now. He doesn't debate quite as well now. And definitely he is older. But he is sharp as a tack. He's able to govern. He's able to lead. And I think he was able to
campaign. And I just think that, you know, there was just an overreaction to the debate. Not so much among the voters, but among the elite class and politics. And a couple weeks of that started to hurt him in the polls. And then people started to panic about the polls. And then, you know, I just think it's, I think it was just a sad chain reaction of events. Even if he was still sharp as it happens, his ability to communicate looked at least that it had
diminished over the past four years. Were you ever concerned about it? Were you surprised by how it rolled through that this was a concern? And it was a concern for voters. It wasn't just the Washington elite. There were poll after poll concerned about age period. Did you, did you not see it coming that idea or were you surprised? Because I was looking upon the way you were reacting. You were sort of like, what are you all doing this? Yeah, look, I think you're public tweeting.
It was quite public. You've been quite public. I've been very public. Look, I wasn't surprised by the fact that there were questions about it. I thought the president went out and answered those questions. So people once said, well, look, we want to see that he can, you know, the day after the day, we will see that he can do an interview. We want to see that he can do a press conference. We want to see that he can campaign. And he did an interview and he did a press conference.
And he can't pay. And they all went well. And so what I was surprised by was, we're going to say, here's the bar. And he jumped over the bar. They go, well, how about this bar? Well, how about that bar? And then at the end, the argument just became, well, look, he's behind in the polls. And he can't win. And I thought that was wrong. Nothing wasn't behind, but that he couldn't win. And, you know, we had people who had been in presidential campaigns telling
it, telling me that, you know, there's three points behind. You can't possibly win. I thought that was very unfair. But look, I just think that I think it was fair that people asked questions after that debate. I think it was fair that people said, here's the bar. But I thought he cleared the bar. That was what was frustrating about that period. When he decided to drop out, because he was quite adamant before and I get that, they would,
they would do that until the end, right? What was your initial reaction? I suspect you were talking to him. Is that correct or not? Yes. I was surprised by his decision, but respect it. Why surprised? Surprise, because I thought he was going to continue to fight on. If you live in Biden world, the Biden campaign, we've been down before. He got crushed in Iowa in 2020 and crushed even worse than New Hampshire. And we came back in one decisively. And then, you know,
throughout 2021, we were told that we were never going to get our agenda done. We couldn't get a past. We were screw-ups. We blew this. We blew this in with the match. We blew that. We blew this. We got it all passed. And then in the fall of 2022, we were told we were going to leave the party to a wipe out in the 2022 elections. And in fact, we produced the best midterm result than any Democrat president produced since FDR. And so I just thought we would do it again.
And so I was surprised when he made the choice he made. You advised him not to correct, to not testically. I had, yes. But he reflected on it. And I think felt that the party was just too divided about his candidacy. And that he had a very clear path forward. The path forward was to explicitly endorse the vice president. And to throw all his resources and support behind her and quickly get to party unity around her and help her win. And I think I think it's a very
smart path. And it's going to be an effective path. You tweeted at donors about four separate occasions, which again is funny to watch. Each time it was a variation of theme, the big money donors trying to oust the president, the final tweet, which came after the president dropped out said, now that the donors and electives have pushed out the only candidate who has ever beaten Trump, it's time to end the political fantasy games in unites behind the only veteran
of national campaign, the outstanding vice president, Kamala Harris. Let's get real in wind in November. Talk a little bit about that because the Republicans are using, trying to say, it is a coup, they use et cetera, et cetera. You're saying the donors and electives pushed out the president. Talk about the idea of bringing her in and pushing back on the Republican narrative. Since you want to do that, correct? That it's not a coup. It's a political decision here.
Yes, it's definitely not a coup. Yeah. I think that I think that the president was definitely pushed. There's no question about it. But it was his decision ultimately and the decision he made to unite the party and to point the party to her. And I think there was a good decision, a courageous decision, a historic decision. And I think we all ought to unite behind that decision now. And let bygones be guy bygones and move forward. Do you think bygones will be bygones?
I think so. I think I know that's what the president thinks about politics and life when he always tells us to do. I mean, if you look at the vice president herself, her breakthrough moment in the 2020 campaign was once she attacked him on the debate stage. She did. And the president not only forgave that. He made her vice president in the United States. That's the kind of politics Joe Biden's always practiced. And what he's focused on right now is our party winning in 2024.
And united behind the vice president to do that. And he'll do whatever it takes to get that done. Right. And pushing back on the Republican saying is a coup when you say push, how do you do that politically? Well, I mean, in the end, he was pushed, but he made the decision to jump.
And most importantly, you know, I was really talking about that tweet was more the speculation out there that we should have some kind of mini primary or process where a bunch of people through their names in the hat were like, well, maybe we should have a whole new face or something like that. A lot of the stuff that James Carville had laid out in the New York Times, where he was like, let's let Obama pick four people and Clinton pick four people and have those eight people square off.
And I thought that it was all crazy when you have a person in the vice president who has won 81 million votes on a ticket before who was part of the president's primary campaign in 2024 when he secured the nomination and who has unmatched experience for anyone other than the president in terms of being in the situation room and being in the Oval Office and dealing with intelligence
matters, now screen matters representing the United States on the world stage. And so I think you know, this idea that we should have some kind of like, Fandango where a bunch of random governors, I'll put their hats in the ring and 4,000 people in Chicago pull one name out of a hat. It seemed like a very bad idea to me. What I was trying to point to was like, it's time to end this.
And if we're not going to have the president run, have the one person who's clearly qualified, who's won a national election before, reunite behind her and get going. You heard yourself a been a big supporter of Kamala Harris. I want to get turned a second. Again, with the ranker, Obama was blamed. Nancy Pelosi was blamed. How does the Democratic Party get over that idea of them and the donors pushing him? How do you, how do you heal that?
I think you heal that the way the president is healed. I think he leads by example here. And I think his quick embrace of her, his enthusiastic embrace of her. I thought his gracious remarks from the Oval Office and his making the decision to hand his entire campaign apparatus, his entire campaign treasury over to the vice president. I think that should heal everything. And look, we're all friends. We've all worked together. And I think it's easy for us to come
together behind the vice president as a great candidate. And with a focus on the stakes in 2020 before, I thought that was most important to point the president made, the stakes in 2024, our democracy's at stake. And the future of our countries at stake. With all that at stake, it's time to put everything aside and come together and win this election. When the election, so on Wednesday, President Biden gave a televised arrest for the first time since
dropping out the race, let's hear a clip. I believe I record his president, my leadership in the world. I vision for America's future, all married at a second term, but nothing, nothing can come in the way of saving our democracy. That includes personal ambition. So I decided the best way forward is the past that torched for new generation. It's the best way to unite our nation. You know, there is a time in a place for long years of experience in public life.
There's also a time in a place for new voices, fresh voices. Yes, younger voices. In that time of place is now. Wow, what a thing. The contrast between President Biden and Donald Trump couldn't be clear. You know Biden as well as anyone. He wanted this job his whole life. He got it. Talk about what he did here and what he's saying. Well, I think it's a much more
articulate version. I was just trying to say to you a second ago, which is that given where we were in the political process, given our party was divided about its candidacy, it was time to bring people together and the way to do that was to pass the torch to a new leader for our party. As the president said, I think he married it a second term, but it just wasn't politically viable anymore. And the right way to go forward was to for him to leave the race and for him to
designate the vice president's successor. How hard was that for him? Oh, I think the second part that wasn't hard at all. He had a lot of confidence and faith in the vice president. I think it's hard to give up the fight. And you know, I think in fairness to him, a lot of people for a long time, always said they could beat Donald Trump. And you know, I did a panel with Chris Christie a year ago, where it was like, you know, Joe Biden on a gather race, I'm the one who's going to be
Donald Trump. Then Chris Christie didn't get a single delegate in the Republican primary process. And you know, it's easy to talk about beating Donald Trump, but only one person had ever done it. And person was Joe Biden. And so I think I think this is not a question of personal ambition, but a question of his belief that he had beaten him before. He was the right person to beat him again. But to beat him requires unifying our party. And he was able to do that in 2020. And he
wasn't able to do that ultimately in 2024. And so I think that, you know, that made his decision. And, you know, I think it was, it was, it was, it was never pleasant, but I think it's, um, it was the only decision he could make. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Fetch Pet Insurance. You all know I love my cat lovely. If you don't let me fill you in, lovely is a very needy cat right now because we're living in an apartment
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Today explain Sean Ram is for him standing outside of the White House to ask Americans how they feel about a historic moment, their president dropping out of the presidential race. Mixed feelings, I think it's sad, but overall I think he might be making the right decision. I'm sad to see him drop out, but I think it needed to be done. So I think hopefully it brings out more young voters. Joe Biden is considered as an anti-cris.
I wanted to stay in this way. I know Trump would have won. Now it's up in the air. But I just feel like his America ready for a woman and also a black woman. So that's what scares me. No, I just don't really see Kamala or really anyone else being a Bible threat to Trump. Kamala, Kamala. We need the facts, man. I don't know. You know what I mean? I think it's some fishy going on, but you know, don't pull me. Yeah. I'm gonna quote you.
We're gonna ask Vox's Andrew Procop and David Axelrod how they feel on today explained. Amen. Okay. Do you think that vice president Harris can do this even if Joe Biden can't be the only one, right? Presumably. I know Chris Christie didn't do it, but what's her chance of doing this from your perspective right now? Obviously the numbers have improved already. I'm very confident that vice president can win.
To Biden's electors has ever done it. That doesn't mean he's the only person who can ever do it. I think that, you know, I think that vice president Harris will do it. Because I think there's a lot of enthusiasm around her candidacy. I think that helps. I've worked on incumbent, reelection campaigns. There's not a lot of poetry in them. People, people in America like a new thing. And I think she'll bring, I think she brings that enthusiasm that poetry to the campaign.
I think it's an historic candidacy. The chance to have the first woman president, of course, first a female black president. There's just a lot of enthusiasm behind her candidacy. And I think that's really helping. You've seen the grassroots donations. That just that level of enthusiasm is just really strong. I think it's a boost for the campaign right now headed into the convention. And I think she's just such an effective candidate also. Her marks in the race has far been really sharp.
Yeah, she hasn't done a misstep. Yeah. And, you know, I think that's what she'll bring to this race. What should be the message for her? And that what should be her from your perspective, some of the messages are important because messaging is one of the issues. The messaging around Biden's accomplishments had not gotten through and not broken through. Well, I think the messaging, I think campaigns are about the future and not the past.
I think it's important for her to talk about not just what they've done together, but also what she intends to do. And I think the most important message is around whose side she's on and around freedom and democracy. I think on the economic issues, it's a choice between someone who believes in middle class economics. Someone who's economic plan very much is tilted towards the wealthy. Okay. President Trump was running on big tax breaks for corporations in the wealthy.
And Vice President Harris will run on very different economic vision of the country. And I think that choice between which side you're on is an important thing for her economic message. Okay. And I think she's been a very effective campaign already on issues of freedom and democracy. Restoring women's right to choose voting rights and protecting the basic institutions of our
democracy, I think those are also important issues in this campaign. And I think those are the key elements of her message. How key will issues around sexism and racism be? Because they've already started up with she's childish cat lady as so as Taylor Swift, etc. How does she push back against those forces where they seem to tolerate the racism sex from Trump for some, and left enough people do,
a lot of people do. How do you push back on that given she's historic and because she's historic, will be controversial with some people and they will use that uncertainty. I think people will raise these misogynistic and racist tropes against her. But I think the American people will reject them. I remember all these same tropes, different kinds of tropes, but similar tropes were raised against President Obama in 2008. And he prevailed.
And some of these same tropes were raised obviously against Secretary Clinton in 2016 and she did not prevail. I think Vice President Harris, I think will prevail in this. No American president has ever given birth before. So, I think that she hasn't given birth doesn't make her unique. It makes her the same as every, makes her the same as every other president. That's a good line. She is a great mother to her husband's children who love her, call her momela.
Yeah. And it's a great family. And I think people will get to see that. And look, I think she just has to run on who she is and what she's done and what she stands for. And I think the haters will hate, but the same kind of hate has not really stood in the way of Taylor Swift being a phenom. Yeah, as the great cat lady says, the haters going to hate. So, but it isn't, is it important that she picks a vice presidential candidate that looks more like you, Ron, than herself?
Well, I should pick a vice presidential candidate for the same reasons, a president pick a vice president. Someone will be a partner in governing so we can take over the country if necessary. And I'm sure she'll pick wisely because she, I think vice presidents take this choice very seriously. They understand the importance of the vice president. And president, the president Biden delivered on this very carefully when he picked vice president Harris.
And she'll deliver him very carefully when she picks her running mate. Do you have a pick? I don't. I think she's looking at the publicly reported list of candidates. She's looking at her great great leaders, great future leaders at our party. And I think there are a number of great names of that list. And, you know, I think any one of them will be a great job. Is anything important besides those things? Geography?
Look, I think geography can help at the margins. You know, Governor Shapiro from Pennsylvania, Senator Kelly from Arizona, Governor Whitmer from Michigan, Governor Cooper from North Carolina, all bring vital piece of geography to the map. And I think that's helpful. But in the end, she's going to pick someone not because what they do in November, what they're going to in January, as a partner in governing. And she'll take this choice very seriously. And that's what she'll be
looking for. I've got one more question about vice president. I want to finish up by talking about tech. You've overlapped with JD Vance. It's Steve Cases VC fund revolution. You were major executive there. He was not so major. The journalist was an article that showed how unimpressive JD's time in tech was, which I already knew. I think you already knew. What can you tell us about him and this choice? Because he is woefully underprepared for what you were just talking about, governing or
running the country. Well, because I knew JD, personally, I try not to talk about him in a political context. But he's now the vice president. He's now the vice president of nominee. And, you know, I obviously just agree with him on every single issue. You know, I think that his views, which now line up with Donald Trump's views, which didn't seem to be the case when I worked with him, are very far out there. And I think that the Trump Vance ticket would take America in the wrong direction on
virtually every single issue. And I think that's what the focus the campaign should be. Was he good at tech investing? I think he had very good perspectives. He worked with a lot of our portfolio companies. And he really had a very rigorous approach to it. But we're not hiring a tech investor as vice president. We're hiring someone to stand up for the American people to help working people in this country. And
to stand up for democracy around the world. And I think JD's view that on Ukraine is very unnerving. And President Trump's view is even more unnerving. So I think there's, I think there's, I'm not again, DeGee's record as an investor. That's a different matter. I've called him an empty vessel. You surprised by that total 360 turnaround having spent time with him. I was a little bit surprised. Yes, I thought that in Hillbilly, LG, LG and his statement was
around the time. It was very strong in his anti-Trump views. Very. But he clearly moved over time. And he can explain that to voters. I'm not going to try to explain it to voters. He can try to explain it. But I obviously agree more with the 2016 version of JD Vance. I do the 2024 reason JD Vance. Yeah, there's different JD Vances. That vintage was a better JD Vance. All right, each episode we get an expert to send us a question. This time we've got a question
from someone you know very well. Jen Socky, let's hear it. Hi, Karris Swisher and Hi, Ron Clean. Great boss. Best boss ever. You're amazing. Okay, my question to you is, I've observed over the last, the period of time I worked for President Biden, that he is somebody who's been remarkably consistent about what he believes and who he's fighting for. But he is also able to evolve, to address the threats of the moment. And one of them is obviously the threat of unregulated
tech. And there's a lot of things of that. And I'm sure you will discuss it. But I wanted to ask you was six months left. And also with a knowledge of his views, what do you think he thinks should happen to better prepare for not just the opportunities. And you can speak to that too. But also some of the threats that are coming from an unregulated tech sector. So you are now working for a tech company, your chief legal officer for Airbnb. And for years, I've been shouting at you and
others about garrises and ability to pass significant tech regulation. No one's been able to do anything about it. Maybe give us two perspectives. One from the White House and another from your current position. I'm not sure they're itching for more regulation. Although they are more regulated than most companies. That's for sure. Yeah, I think we're quite heavily regulated at Airbnb.
I'm not here to speak on their behalf. But I'll offer my personal views here. I think that you know, the most important issue, obviously, is how we navigate the policy issues raised by AI.
And I think Vice President Harris has been very active on that in the White House approach here of working with the major tech companies to try to find a framework, given that fact, the Congress, which had said it was going to act on this, has been unable to act on this, trying to find a voluntary framework that can work with the tech companies to make sure that there are key guardrails around AI, around transparency, non-discrimination, compliance with copyright
laws, things like that. I think it's been a very successful effort that the Vice President has helped lead at the White House. And also a major effort across the government to check the development of AI and China to make sure that that nefarious uses of AI aren't coming out of China. And so I think that's been the administration's policy. And I think it's been effective so far.
And what I'll say is Vice President Harris, obviously, has very sophisticated views on tech, having come from San Francisco and having been the Attorney General of the State of California. And so I think she's certainly familiar with the industry very closely. And I think brings a very good perspective here. And I think we'll do a good job on these issues as president.
Can Biden do anything in the months ahead? I mean, obviously legislation would be tough. But what would be if there was a single most important kind of tech legislation we need to pass, AI regulation, antitrust, privacy, child safety protection, something else? Well, I think that child safety would be a good thing to do. And it's kind of the kind of thing that's still doable with a divided Congress.
I think that the administration continues to have at both the justice firm and the FTC aggressive work on competition, which is competition's an important thing. You know, I think they'll continue to work on the AI framework they've developed at the White House to continue to work with the major players in AI to make sure that there are guardrails around once being developed. And then we get the vast positive benefits we can get from AI
without some of the negative impacts. I think that'll be I think that'll be the key focus next few months. AI and not everything else they didn't do before. Nothing. I think it's to be very hard to get Congress to move on some of these to move on anything. Last question, I'm going to give you a moment to reflect on Joe Biden. I think it's, you know, this is the end for him in that regard. This is someone you have all definitely worked for most of all. Can you
reflect on Joe Biden for us and what he means and what he's done here? Well, per se I'll say he's an incredibly good person. What you see is what you get. He's kindhearted and generous to people and really devoted to his family and caring about other people's families. He's always been there for me and my family. So I have a deep personal relationship with him. A question about it. I think as a president, he came to office at a very, very difficult time. Our democracy was
in tatters after January 6th. Our economy was in tatters because of the pandemic and because of Trump's mismanagement of it. And we were all locked down in our homes. Schools were closed. Businesses were closed. There was vaccine, but no one had gotten vaccinated. And I think, I think what he did to get us out of that dark moment to restore faith and democracy, to get our economy booming again. To get people past the pandemic, I think is historic and
transformational for our country. And you add to that what he did to bring us back into the fight on climate change. And I think it's an unbelievable record. I think it's a record people will stay for a long time. And he deserves a great deal of credit for his contribution to public service throughout the years in the Senate. His vice president now is president. But also, so I just love him as a person. He's a great president and a great person both.
And so what do you imagine he'll be remembered for for leaving at the right time or over time, I think his work on climate change is going to be something he's remembered for because I think 20 or 30 years from now, when we've been the curve back in the right direction, where all these investments he started to make on terms of wind power, solar power, alternative energy, all starts to really pay off. And we start to see emissions dramatically decline.
People say, well, how did that happen? And they'll point back to Biden's presidency. And the legislation he passed, they kicked off this revolution in America that we're seeing going on right now. So I think that'll be a really key part of his legacy. Then you feel hope now? I know you were definitely spicy, angry, upset. How do you feel right now? I feel hope that he's done this
so effectively, made this handoff so effectively. And we have a great candidate, vice president Harris that will win in the fall and be able to continue the work that the president started. All right, we'll end on that note. Thank you, Ron. Thank you, Cara. On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Ricell, Cateriochum, Jolly Myers, Megan Bernie, and Gabriela Biello. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher,
Kate Furby, and Kaelin Lynch. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rick Juan. Our theme music is by Tracodemics. If you're already following the show, I like Ron Claim. You too get to work for Cara Swisher, Star Reporter. If not, Ron Claim, CREPS your debate. Go wherever you listen to podcasts search for on with Cara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Cara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday
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If you've been enjoying this podcast, here's a look into what else is happening at New York Magazine. I'm Cory Seeker and I'm here with Reeves Wideman, who has written about the American obsession with NDAs. Where did they come from? Why are they everywhere? And are they good for anything besides covering up for abusers? After you've poked around NDAs for a while, do you see NDAs used mostly as tools of abuse and coercion? Do you see positive results?
Where did you land on NDAs? I think in most situations, it is used as a way to claim power, but not even necessarily to do a bad thing. It's just kind of, it is now the boring standard tool in the toolbox of corporations or powerful people. But now it's being used on the people at the bottom. It's the warehouse workers at Amazon being made to sign them. Or I was just trawling job listings while doing this story and there were NDAs for forklift drivers and people
working in butcher shops. And I think on the one hand, it's just kind of like, well, I might as well. There's no downside for me to do this. But it is also just another way that you sort of keep your employees or people you get into a relationship with that you sort of keep your thumb on them. So I do think it is at the end of the day, the people who are giving them out by and large are trying to control someone. Do you think that they're going to become standard for like literally
every interaction and job interview and possibly relationship as well? Or do you think they're just finally going to die or become outlawed? Like where do we go from here? You know, it was corporations first. Then it was celebrities. Then it was just rich people who aren't famous, but they also want to protect their privacy. The next frontier is people like you and me. And are we going to start giving them to their partners? You know, I think some people are going to start experimenting with
it. It doesn't take much to go online, download a free NDA and without even consulting a lawyer and hand it over to someone I did as a joke, send one to my girlfriend. She hasn't signed it yet. But I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, at least sent it. So that's Reeves Widement, who may or may not be single soon. You could read his work on NDAs in our beautiful print magazine in your own home or on nymag.com slash lineup.