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the summer after all this is my podcast and I get to talk to who I want to. Anyway, I've known Cecile for years. She hit me like a freight train when I met her in Austin for the first time. We had coffee and you could see just movement and activity coming off of her, but also an incredible kindness of what she was trying to do. She could have been a very different person as the daughter of late Texas governor Ann Richards, the second woman in the last Democrat to hold up
position. She could have been in her mom's shadows, but instead walked right out into the sunlight herself and been on the front lines of progressive politics for most of her adult life. For 12 years, she defended women's reproductive rights as president of Planned Parenthood. She stepped down in 2018, well before Roe v Wade was overturned, but she continued to champion and defend women's health, including safe and legal access to abortion in other ways, which is why is a shock to many when
Cecile announced earlier this year. She's facing another opponent cancer. I think it was shocking to everybody given what drive and energy she has and what a terrible thing to happen, given how much she's worked for women's health. So I want to talk to her about this and how it's changed her approach to the battle over reproductive rights in the post-Row world. What's at stake at the Supreme
Court and at the bout box in November and how tech fits in the conversation? Our expert question for Cecile comes from Audra Penaer Carly Clause, her nonprofit code with glossy focuses on youth education and tech, but she's also written very persuasively about abortion issues, including in her own home state of Missouri. And she has two questions of first Cecile. So let's jump right into the conversation. I Cecile, welcome to On. It's great to see you again. Great to see you. It's been a while.
I know. I should tell listeners, I am one of your biggest fans. I've always enjoyed talking to you, appeared at my various conferences over the many years and we've been in a discussion for a long time about a lot of the issues we're going to talk about. So I'm very much looking forward to it. Me too. The last time I interviewed you was at the Code Conference in 2017, which was a long time ago.
Yeah, lots has happened. Yeah, lots has happened. You were running Planned Parenthood back then. You left the organization in 2018, but you're very much involved with women's health movement. And I want to get to everything that's happened, obviously, has been a lot of activity and some of which you predicted and talked about and seemed at the time like you were Cassandra, but in fact we're 100% correct. But first, I do want to talk to you about what's going on with you personally.
You have brain cancer and entreatment. Can you talk about that and how you're doing and how the past year has been for you? Yes, anything like this was totally unexpected. Came out of the blue. And thank God I was living in New York City and have access to excellent healthcare. So within like 36 hours of detecting this brain tumor, I was on the operating table. And I've done a ton of chemo and radiation. And thank God I'm past that point.
But for a really serious diagnosis, which Gleo Blastoma is, I'm doing incredibly well and able to work. I spend a lot of time at Sloan Kettering, but again, my admiration and respect and gratitude for healthcare providers has never been this profound. And I wish that everyone had access to the healthcare that I've had. So when you talk about that, what happened to you? Talk about what went through your brain. I myself had a stroke many years ago and it was terrifying, as you know, when I
was in Hong Kong. Talk a little bit about what it does to you as a person. I know what it did to me, but I'd like to hear from you. Well, it is terrifying. And there were like many nights I couldn't sleep. But I again, and I have to say, the only reason I probably went to the emergency room is because of a friend of mine who actually works with me on all things tech related. And he's had cancer. And he said, you have to go to the emergency room tonight. And if he hadn't done that,
my doctor had blown me off. And I have to thank him for saving my life. Obviously, we could spend hours talking about how the healthcare system deals with women. But anyway, I did get the care. And but of course, the first thing I thought about were my kids. Ironically, my daughter was in labor in Washington, DC, delivering what turned out to be my first grandchild, Teddy. And yet I was, you know, going through the list, like, are my kids okay? Are my, is my family okay? If I die tomorrow,
how is everyone going to be? And you just have to do that. The good news is I feel like we took care of stuff. We had conversations we probably would not have had. And I thank God for that ability to do that. And so it is a pause, isn't it? It's really interesting. I, so only time I cried is when I thought about my kids, the minute and it was, and it was during the stroke. It was really, it was, because my dad had died of a similar brain situation, not tumor, but an aneurysm.
And when I was young and one of the things that's important is it changes your priorities. Now, I had always thought about that because of my dad dying at a young age about how little time we have on the planet. And this is a reminder, obviously. But you've been politically active and very hard charging your entire life. Did it change that part of it beyond the family? Because this is great to be able to really understand your mortality, correct? Right. Well, it did change things
in that I obviously, I have to spend a couple of days at the hospital every week. And that's humbling. And you just realize you can't do everything. I've been in speech therapy to even be able to have this conversation with you is a gift. So I'm really focused on just two things. And that is doing what I can to defeat Donald Trump. I mean, let's just be honest, all the work I've done in my life for the labor movement, for the women's movement, for the voting rights is at risk.
And the other thing, which is really exciting, is I'm working on a project to document the lived experiences of people who are living under abortion bans. Because I think creating more empathy and understanding, particularly for states like that can't imagine what it's like in Louisiana. And it's allowed me to hope shine a light on the people fighting back and the experiences they have. And it's also been unbelievably rewarding. These are some of the most courageous women
I've ever met in my life. So speaking of courageous women, your mom, the former governor of Texas Ann Richards, who was an amazing woman, I met her only twice, also died of a rare form of cancer 18 years ago. Is it going through your own treatment? Has it changed your perspective on her life and her journey? Well, yes, in that you realize you have choices to make about treatment, but she hated being sick. She hated the sympathy and she didn't want to be seen as an object of
pity or anything. So it was a struggle for her. And it was a hard treatment. I mean, she had a softal gel cancer and she was in pain and miserable. I have to say that has not been my experience. It's a different kind of cancer, but also we just keep getting better at this in terms of medical care. But yeah, I thought about that and the the choices she made and she wanted to live her life a certain way. So when you think of that, one of the things you were talking about earlier
was doctors not listening to women. I had that experience exactly. No, I'm so sorry, but it's not surprising. No, no, not at all when I was, you know, my brother also made me go to the hospital. He's a doctor, but a lot of not listening later in the treatment of what was good for me and things like that. But this is a theme of dobs correct this idea. Let's talk about that decision to overturn Roe v. Wade in 2022 in the fallout. The writing was on the wall after Trump appointed three
conservative justices, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Coney Barrett. And then dobs ruling was leaked a month before it became official. But it still felt like a shock to many people. You and I had discussions where you kept warning that this was coming, but were you surprised in what was your reaction? Well, I always knew it was possible and materially in that election, you know, it heart breaking, shocking election. I always knew that if Trump had the ability to appoint more judges,
he would be down the line, guaranteeing a commitment that they would overturn Roe. But it's still shocking. I mean, it is shocking that, and as we see the results and the fallout and what it's like to live in a state where you have no rights, particularly about pregnancy and family. It's kind of continually shocking. I try to liken this to, it's not like a natural disaster, like the Titanic or something like it happens and there's, you know, reverberation. This is a daily
Titanic. For women that live in the states and they are growing a number with this Florida, their daily stories about the impact for people who had no idea this could affect them. Right. Were you surprised how quickly they had acted? Of course, one of the things we had discussed was over time how they tried to erode it through various means, right, to try to make it difficult
for access. But were you surprised about quickly they acted or was that from your perspective, always the game for them, like in your home state of Texas? Well, Texas was ahead of the curve, even before the DOBS decision. So it didn't surprise me because they'd been committed to this forever. But again, it had been a talking point or like a slogan. And now they're like the dog that caught the bus. They own this. And they own the horrible outcomes for families, the tragic circumstances, the
the disappearing OBGYN population in many states. So it's the cascading effect of DOBS has not just been the loss of abortion care in at least 14 states. It's also the loss of women's health care writ large. You know, it's impossible now in Louisiana to get prenatal care before you're in your second trimester because no one wants to take the risk that you will miscarry. And that they will somehow be held responsible. I was just meeting in New Orleans with medical
students from Tulane and LSU. And they can't even get trained as OBGYNs and the full range of medical care. They have to go out of state. And none of them really want to stay in Louisiana. So let's talk about that. In March, you wrote this piece for Time Magazine speaking of Louisiana about the microcosm of the abortion access fight. Talk about it on the ground there. Using as an example of what's happened. Well, even the most courageous doctors are terrified
of providing care that could be considered giving someone an abortion. We have women miscarrying. I'll give you an example. Kate Joshua from Baton Rouge, a young woman who was worried that she was miscarrying and she was bleeding. Went to the hospital to the emergency room in Baton Rouge and they turned her away and they said, we can't do anything for you. You just have to go home. And then it got worse. And then she went to another hospital. I think probably
the only other ER. And they also turned her away. And what eventually happened is she went home and she bled and miscarried on her own with her husband and young toddler in the other room. This is not uncommon. What's uncommon is that Kate went to a public hearing with the encouragement of her twin sister who was a medical student in Louisiana. And she called the hospital out. And then NPR picked it up and it became a national story. But the courage to do that and the untold
stories are everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. So many of the laws are going further than just preventing abortion. So for example, Texas has passed travel bans and trafficking laws that make it a felony for an adult to help a minor seek abortion care. Texas Republicans are campaigning to treat abortion as homicide, not reproductive health. Earlier this year and Alabama's Supreme Court ruled that a frozen embryos are children. The governor did sign the legislation
providing criminal and civil immunity to IVF clinics and patients. But the court decision still opened the door to legal repercussions against someone who discards embryos that were created during IVF and not implanted. Trump had signaled this at once during what that one interview that he tried to walk back the criminalization. It feels like the steps were taken in pre-environations quickly morphed into prosecuting people for both patients and doctors for reproductive care.
What do you attribute this shift from making abortion illegal to criminalizing it with anyone associated with it? Why is there this urge to take it further? And was it unexpected for you that this move so quickly? It was horrifying but not surprising. And I just feel like look what we're seeing in Louisiana is just as one example. The Republican party's fealty to the most extreme wing of the party which doesn't represent even a majority of Republicans
in most cases. There's no bottom. And even there was just the Louisiana legislature which is a frightening place. They just considered there was a proposal to actually make an exception for abortion because there are no exceptions for rape, incest, you name it. For children, minors who are victims of sexual assault or violence. And it was turned down. It was
voted down by the Republican party. There's just no bottom to which they won't sink. And I mean, a woman, representative Delisha Boyd who I've interviewed and his, like just a fighter, she said, we have failed our children. As you noted, the majority of Republicans including Donald Trump suggested support for exception in the case of rape incest or the health of the mother of the stake. You've been listening to their arguments for a long time. Talk about the move to appease voters
ahead of the election. Well, clearly, as I said earlier, they had like all these talking points, all these statements about babies and pro-life. And now they have to face the consequences of criminalizing medical care of a variety of ways. And so they're obviously, they're just scrambling to find a way to explain it. And my favorite, Cara, is that Donald Trump has now settled on its estate's rights issue, you know, as if, okay, well, I'll give you an example of
a state's rights. In Mississippi last year, a 12-year-old girl was raped in her front yard by a stranger. She could not get an abortion. There was really literally no way to get one in the state, and her mother couldn't get her to Chicago, which was the, you know, the only option. And so this young woman started seventh grade with a newborn. And that's what state's rights looks like. And that's what I like to have Donald Trump answer. Is that his imagination of how
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so states have the opportunity to vote on the issue. Talk about the proposals and why some abortions right advocates, including Planned Parenthood are not necessarily thrilled. There's a variety of ballot initiatives and I really support the decisions of Planned Parenthood of where to be active and where not. And there always is a danger. In fact, we've seen like in Florida, even though there is a highly popular effort to enshrine abortion rights into the, but the
Republicans have made it the threshold for getting the votes upwards of 60%. This is a really hard thing to do and they've tacked on all kinds of fiscal notes and other things to make them less
popular. But my experience is and this was like long before the overturning of dobs, even in really conservative states, when I was at Planned Parenthood, states like South Dakota, including South Dakota multiple times Mississippi, when people had the chance to vote on whether abortion should be decided by people or by politicians, even in the toughest states that we won. But there are varying levels of truth and advertising about what they was actually do.
But there are initiatives to expand protections in several states, including New York, California, Montana, Maryland, Nevada. What states are you watching closely and what are you most worried about and most hopeful about? Arizona number one. And I know I just listened to your podcast, which was fascinating about Arizona. It's an incredibly important state for a whole variety of reasons, but not least of which how I believe abortion and abortion access could impact voter
turnout and Florida critical. But again, the Republican party has made it like much more difficult. And these are expensive races to raise the kind of money to do a full state campaign is expensive and people are torn in how to resource all the efforts. I also want to say it's not necessarily your question, but even if we win these ballot initiatives, the women in Louisiana, even if we
win the election, women in Louisiana are going to wake up and Texas with the same situation. And so it isn't we even though the ballot initiatives are incredibly important, we have to change this entire country because we can't leave anyone to behind. And I that's why I think I feel like lifting up the stories of lived experiences of families and so people understand what's happening. Yeah, what you were referring to this map of restrictions or swath of the country where
access is basically cut off like the entire South East and Texas, Florida. As you noted, women and doctors are not just traveling but moving out of state because of these laws relating to health care. What does that make the US look like in terms of voting blocks, demographics, public health, if this continues? Well, there's so many ways you can look at it, but I know 84% of yeah, young people who are going to college do not want to go to college in a state that
where they don't have rights. That's a huge number. In terms of the racial disparities, two thirds of historically black colleges and universities are in abortion ban states. So in fact, many of the young women I was meeting with who were med students in in New Orleans are some of the most talented products of that state and they're really leave. So we're just beginning to see
the impact on medical care. And I think I mentioned this earlier, but that's why if you know the Republicans like to say there's exceptions and you know people can get care, but you can't. Even if it was legal, quote unquote, you'd have to convince a doctor that they weren't going to lose their license and go to jail. Right. Why should they? Yeah. Yeah. Why should they do it?
So in that regard, you're talking about if even if we pass these valid initiatives, even if the states get winning in places that are surprising, Biden was last campaign of a president of abortion access was the law of the land 2024 is a new world. They talk about him and vice president Harris talk about this a lot about abortion access. But what can they actually do? What do you want to see more of in this in the national part of the election? I mean, I'm seeing like what I'd
hoped would happen and that that is focusing on the affected people and their stories. And it's not about it's about policies and they're doing things that are important, but it's also putting on the road. People who are relatable. My worry is people were get tired of talking about this because I know the Democrats in the midterms are like say, we're talking too much about abortion. We should talk about what blood and thank God people did keep talking about it because it led to historic turnout.
And I think I just need folks to stay the course and every day I wake up thinking how can we hold Republicans accountable for the tragedies that are happening? It's not a talking point. It's not a policy position. It's real people's lives and it's every single day. If Trump wins, how likely is a federal ban on abortion? I was just talking to Congresswoman Alexandria Cassio Cortez and she was worried about this. Is there anything states advocacy groups lawmakers can do now to prevent that
from happening? If Donald Trump is elected again, there will absolutely be and assuming that the Republicans get control have Congress, he will sign anything. I don't he's not going to be in a position. He honestly, he doesn't care about women. So any, yeah, I can't put it plainly enough. I don't care what he says. He said everything and we'll say anything to get elected and he will sign any abortion ban that comes across his desk. So speaking of power people in power,
Supreme Court decisions, two cases related to abortion that could come later this month. The first case is about Mithapristone, the abortion pill. According to the Gutmacher Institute, 63% of abortions formed in the US in 2023 were induced by medication. The second case is about the emergency room abortion care. What do these cases mean for women's health? Well, so we'll take the
M-Tala case. This is a 40-year-old law that requires hospitals that are federally funded to treat patients, not to turn them away, that have life threatening or health threatening complications or situations. So the Republicans are trying to say that if you are having an abortion or you're miscarrying and your life or health is at risk, they don't have to see you.
And hospitals can turn you away. So this is overturning a 40-year precedent and it's extremely scary because, and as you have mentioned, there are cases where women are being turned away from emergency rooms and having to fly out of state. It's just outrageous. So that's the the M-Tala case. The case about M-Pristone is equally important because many, as you know, the number of people searching for abortion online, searching for medication, abortion pills
is just off the charts. And the fear that many of these, because of the criminalization, including Louisiana, the fear of people, even searching online for this information, is profound. And it's outrageous that the Supreme Court would be deciding on an FDA matter that has a medication that has been safely used for and approved for more than 20 years. It's the politicization of the Supreme Court, as others have talked about, it's horrifying
because it used to be- You have a guess on what they're going to do. I don't. You don't. I don't. Because it's so, I don't think it will be good, but there's a variety of ways they can rule. But anything they do that diminishes access to medication abortion will have a profound impact. On everybody. Yeah. We'll be back in a minute. There's a lot of things you might say when your small business has a problem. You've got to be kidding me. Come on. Well, I didn't see that one coming.
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Broken Money. We discuss the upcoming rate-cutting cycle, whether she's still bullish on Bitcoin, and her advice for anyone who is starting to build their own portfolio. So the way that I approach portfolio in this environment is a three-pillow portfolio. So it's like one big part, stocks, one part, those more kind of like, you know, cash or short-duration bonds and things like that. And then one chunk is that little more inflationary
thing. So, you know, energy producers are gold, Bitcoin. You can find that conversation and many others exclusively on the Prof. G. Markets podcast. Hi, I'm Brunei Brown and I'd love to tell you about a new series on the Unlocking Us podcast that's launching right now. It's called The On My Heart and Mind series. I'm going to be talking to several of my favorite writers, including Bowery Core on the power of revolutionary love and what it means to be a sage warrior. It's a
beautiful conversation. I'm talking with Roxanne Gay, always thought provoking. We're talking about Black Gun ownership. What does stand your ground really mean? And Gun ownership in general. Sarah Lewis and I are talking about her stunning new book The Unseen Truth and Dr. Mary Claire Haver and I are discussing Minipause. I'm also going to have a conversation with my sisters on grief and love. The first episode is available now and I can't wait for you to hear it. All
episodes drop on Wednesdays and you can get them as soon as they're out. Follow Unlocking Us on Apple or wherever you download your podcasts. Every show we get a question from an outside expert today, we got one from this is going to surprise you but she's written a lot about this topic model and entrepreneur Carly Klaus who is married to Josh Kushner. She has a nonprofit code with Klausie. She has two questions for
you. Here's the first one. Hi Cecil, this is Carly. You have been instrumental in so many things throughout your career but most recently creating Charly which is an online chatbot to help women seeking abortions across the nation. My question for you is how do you see technology reshaping
the reproductive rights landscape? So explain Charly for us and how you look at it. So Charly is a chatbot that some colleagues and I created anticipating that so many women, particularly young women would be going online to access care or even search for what they could get and what was legal and it's proven to be true. The most important thing about Charly is it is just a chatbot.
You have to provide two pieces of information to chat with Charly. One is your last menstrual period if you know it and the second is your zip code and it's fully anonymous and after the chat that you have it's erased, all the information is erased because we wanted to pilot something that could actually be anonymous and trust worthy. So that was important and we're seeing great uptick
in the use of Charly, particularly in Florida and in Texas. Those are two highest states of usage and I hope that we do more to make it simpler for people going online to access medication abortion in particular because it's not misinformation that I'm worried about. It's lack of ability to find what they need and easily. Okay, there's a second question from Charly, we're going to play that.
Given the current political environment and the increase in restrictive abortion laws, what strategies do you believe are most effective for protecting and advancing reproductive rights over this next decade? So I obviously this election in November is critical and there was a recent poll that showed that 17% of people incorrectly identified who was responsible for the overturning
of row. So there is a huge information gap for voters that Donald Trump appointed, as you said in the beginning of this show, appointed the three judges who are now not only overturned row but are responsible for all the bad decisions coming up about reproductive rights. So we have an information gap and Charly is amazing and I think the more people who can use their platform
to educate voters so that they can make an informed decision is critical. And it's all even if we win and I hope and believe we will and Donald Trump is not reelected, there are still states that we have to work on and make it untenable for the Republicans to continue to
pass policies that harm women. And it is a state-by-state battle and I appreciate the work that everyone is doing to lift up the stories of people who are impacted in their families and the courage, I just so grateful for the courage of the people who don't have to share those stories but do. But do you think there needs to be a national abortion access bill? So it's not in the hands of the Supreme Court? Absolutely. I'm sorry I should have said that.
But yeah absolutely and that's why these elections are so important. The people of America would support that in a heartbeat. It's just a question of a Republican party having a stranglehold on anything related to women's health. And so yes, this is a political problem and it has to have a political solution. You know, when I was at Plan P-R-D-I always thought we had amazing medical advances in technology and but it was the only politics that were keeping
people from getting care. How do you start from being burnt out? It's exhausting. You know, it's I mean maybe I'm nuts but I don't find it exhausting. I get angry and frustrated but as I said like I'm so inspired by people who this was not their fight and yet they're in it now. A young woman Nancy Davis from Baton Rouge, I had coffee and benyes with her the other day and
she had had a terrible experience and pregnancy. Her you know the fetus had no brain or skull. It was clearly unsustainable but she couldn't get an abortion in Louisiana and she did finally get a way to New York City and Plan P-R-D-I saw her. So yay, Plan P-R-D-I she said she had great care but it changed her life. She said I don't want any other woman to go through what I did and so in Louisiana she's you know she started a foundation to help address maternal mortality and access
to health care. She said to me that there's a you know most people find their calling but my calling found me and she's unstoppable. Well let's end on that story. Okay. Cecil I really appreciate it. You're a national treasure. Great to see you again. On with Cara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor Resel, Terry Yokem, Jolly Myers and Megan Bernie. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher, Andrea Lopez-Crusado and Kate
Furby. Our engineers are Rick Juan and Fernando Aruda and our theme music is by Tracademics. If you're already following the show you are pissed off and ready to get active. If not get inspired and do something. The wherever you listen to podcasts search for on with Cara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Cara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Box Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.