On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather Friends Media. Though the looker likes didn't share biology, they shared a love of stories that bonded them. Huh.
I wanted to have a memorable first line of our podcast.
Oh okay, like when twenty four was spiteful.
Or they shoot the white girl first.
I was borned by the river.
It's like a jungle. Sometimes it makes me wonder how I keep from going under.
And those are some iconic lines.
Yeah, when the grill speaks to people, listen, an elder whose memory held a library miss folk tales, community histories, epics, and legends.
We have always always had many stories to tell, stories of our highest highs and our lowest lows.
Our hearts cradled by our mama, daddy, sister, cousin, friend, Our.
Science and magic wielded by tender hands.
Our names and languages snatched, our links to our history, our stories, ourselves sold.
Through it all, our mouths, our memories remained.
The people could fly, and it turns out the stories could too.
Gospel music's redemptive.
Arc, blaxplotations, hyperbole, the quick wit.
Of playing the dozens and roasting.
The family history baked into recipes passed down from generation to generation.
Ida's investigations of strange fruit, a reality that's hard to swallow.
Tony's loving hands writing about the Black women in America.
The subway performer who's larger than life, movements and familiar cadence that are all but shouting. Do you see me? Because I'm right here.
No matter the form, topic or venue, Black storytelling is all about bearing witness. Black stories are the reason why I hesitate to kill spiders even though they scare me, and why I know what nineteen seventies Jackson, Mississippi looks like from a primary source.
Black stories are the reason why I feel empowered to be a storyteller and join this podcast. Black stories are the default, the meaningful and profound, the mundane and petty, stories that keep us up at night, and stories that make us roll our eyes.
We're taking a second look and questioning the consensus. We're pulling stories from the archive that you've never heard of before and won't be able to shut up about afterward. I'm Katie and I'm Eves, and this is on theme with Katie and.
Eves today's episode.
This is the beginning. So why are we like? Why Now, first.
Of all, we love black stories and we think, you know, black stories deserve the spotlight all of the time. True, Okay, not just during Black History Month or around June teenth, Not definitely, Not in the aftermath of a tragedy. Black stories are more than a fad or fodder for opportunistic outsiders. We know them, we love them, and of course we're moved by them. They change our lives, so we want to share them. We want to give them their due.
That was so beautiful. I just I just see a moment right now.
Thank you. Okay, you playing what about you?
I echo everything you just said one hundred percent. Do you remember in twenty twenty and everyone was like reckoning. Yeah, it was a time, and I'm glad it's over home. That was one of the times I was like, this is gonna be in a history bookstore. It felt like change was possible, like everything could change in that year, and I mean some things did, but I vantaged point. A lot of things went back to how they were,
including the attention black stories were receiving. So for me, when thinking about this podcast and planning and creating it with you, that Tony Morrison quote was really on my mind the whole time.
Which quarter are you talking about, you know, the one.
Let me make sure I'm saying it right. If there's a book that you want to read but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. So I took that advice, but I applied it to podcasts selfishly. I want to listen to this podcast because I haven't heard anything like it yet. Basically, I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Okay, Fanny Lou Mississippi.
Ganggang Jackson, stand up.
But seriously on themes here because it was its time. There accounts podcasts out there, true enough and everything else
to take our attention. Lord knows, I'm addicted to TikTok, But what I'm particularly looking forward to is adding to the collective archive of black storytelling because there's so many black storytellers out there, so many podcasters doing their things, you know, and as a bookstore owner, I'm always surprised when I find something that's new to me that's so good but for whatever reason, has fallen off of the public's radar if it was ever on there to begin with.
There's so many books like from the twenties thirties forties that black people wrote that are amazing? Have it heard of them? Never heard of this man? Who is that man? Sorry to that man? But enough exposition. Let's get into this first episode.
Okay, let's do it. So what are we talking about today?
All stories have a beginning, and all.
Good stories have good beginnings.
So today we're specifically looking at the first episodes of TV shows that made us watch the series all the way through. Slightly embarrassing. Fun fact about me, I get weirdly attached to the fictional characters for my favorite TV shows, and that attachment usually happens the first time I encounter them.
I don't think that's embarrassing. There is something about going on a journey with an especially a lovable character, so I'm the same way too.
Beyond our emotional attachment, there are also some technical elements that draw us into a stories world by design.
What are those technical elements?
You know? Characters, setup, answering the question why now, like why.
Is the story starting at this particular point in time?
Yep? Then of course, conflict and setting up for the rest of the series.
Okay, so a reason for folks to keep watching along.
Mm hm because we all know there's plenty of media to engage with, so folks are not about to sit around watching something that doesn't capture their attention. Ter Ray has a good write up on pilots on her masterclass. But yeah, as we're starting on our on theme journey with all the emotions and feelings that come with beginning something new, let's go rewatch the first episodes of our favorite tales and put ourselves back in the state of mind we were in when we first watched them.
So we'll meet back here after the break.
And we're back.
So what episode did you watch?
I watched the first episode of The Abbot Elementary. Have you seen it?
I haven't, but I've heard great things about it.
What about you? What did you watch?
I watched I May Destroy You? Have you seen that?
I haven't, but I do know MICHAELA. Cole and her cheekbones are the star.
That is true. She is also the writer, the co director, and the executive producer of the show.
Okay, you better get me together. She's ad just a star, you know, all in the day's work for her. So from what I know about I May Destroy You, it sounds like we watched very different shows that sounds about right for us.
It is very typical of us always doing the opposite of each other.
Okay, so fill me in and anyone else who hasn't watched I may destroy you give us a little synopsis and the premise of the show, and you better say spoil alert if you've got to spoil some Okay.
So spoilers constitute different things for different people. So I'm just going to go ahead and say we have now stepped into the spoiler alert, so be prepared, be prepared to have some spoilers. Also, I will give a content warning here because there is subject matter around rape. So if you're sensitive to that topic, you can go ahead and skip forward in this episode. Okay, So I'm going to keep it simple. MICHAELA. Cole plays Arabella, a writer
who is struggling to finish her second book. She ends up realizing that someone raved her while she was out one night, but she can't remember what happened exactly. The show, which is only twelve episodes long, traces Arabella's path in the aftermath of the rape, how she responds to it, and how her friends help her through it.
I'm glad to get that content warning, unfortunately, so many people can relate to that.
Yeah, it is definitely something that is prescient and it's always a topic of discussion, and it's something that many people appreciated her really bringing up and talking about it in a way that is really nuanced and sensitive as well.
Yeah, I can imagine her perspective is one that we needed in this conversation because it's something that's talked about. But is it talked about in the right way?
You know what I mean? I mean it's hard to say. It is one of those things that's hard to talk about.
That's already hard because the basis of it is sex, and we already know how hard even when sex is based around pleasure, and that should be easy to talk about pleasure, right, But when it comes to something that is regarding violence, you know, that's another different level of it and also something where gender is involved, and it's just so hard to have conversations around that in spheres where all of the ways that we're talking are very
truncated versions of conversations. They're small, they're short, they're snappy, and so art can really show up and do something about that because it allows us to have different interpretations, It allows us to have an enjoyment of art at the same time that we are able to think more deeply about something and maybe develop new opinions and ideas around it.
Mm hmm. It's not just like a tweet or a SoundBite. So with's a fresh in your mind. Give us a rundown of the first episode.
Okay, so we know from the jump that Arabella as a character, she's adventurous, she's driven, she's fun, and she's somehow laid back and on edge at the same time. And she's a little messy as we all are, you know exactly. In her masterclass, ter Ray talks about the importance of complex, real characters, and Arabella is definitely that. She shows strength and vulnerability, she makes imperfect choices, and
she loves heart throughout it all. So the show starts off with her returning to her hometown, which is London after a quick hop skip over to Italy to link with the guy.
They'll find me here because they think I'm working.
Just show them what you've done so for So.
Why I'm saying is what side she looks like from know what I'm done here is full.
She speaks for a dick. But the thing is she was supposed to be there working on her second book, which her deadline for is fast approaching, and she plans on pulling this all nighter to write, but she ends up taking a break to party with her friends and finish her draft, which her agents are not super impressed by the end. By the way, but Arabella is clearly
feeling out of black after her night out. She does end up finding her way back home after getting a little help navigating from a fan who is really seeming super thirsty and a little over zealous, but she was a fan nonetheless, and she was helpful. But Arabella arrived home and immediately remembered that she had been raped while she was out, And then the episode ends.
Do you remember what was going through your mind when you first saw the episode? White emotions were coming up for you?
Well, you know, I don't even know how much I had been primed to watch the show. I do like going into things without knowledge of them, so I think it was pretty heavy for me, like as a writer, also being able to relate to the struggles of writing, which is in itself a process that is that can be super vulnerable in lots of ways, and you're already participating in a sort of shedding of yourself something where you have to open your heart, you have to think, you have to think about things deeply.
You know, you're forced to think thinking deeply.
We say, as the host of this podcast about thinking deeply about the story, thinking you're in that zone and you're very open. You know, you're you're like, you have all these wounds all over you already sometimes in the
process of writing, especially something like a book. So I think thinking about that and just being able to see the full breath of her character as a black woman who was allowed to make mistakes, who were allowed to be like girl, you could have done better, and also like girl, us saying to ourselves, me saying to myself, look at all of these very real societal and systemic issues that she's dealing with too, that she's handling in a way that I don't know if I would handle.
So I have many feelings about it when I first saw the episode, I do know that I wanted to watch the rest of the show, and I will say that it does help that the show is only twelve episodes long, because if I look at a show and I'm like it's eight, it's ten, it's twelve episodes, you don't have to put that much investment into it. And it wasn't even from that perspective necessarily that I was thinking of it, because I was enjoying the experience of
watching the show. So it was more like, oh, we got twelve episodes, let's go, and let's keep going and watching this. And I will also say that it was definitely helpful to put some space in between the episodes rather than watching them all at one time, because the subject matter can be triggering in different ways or can just bring up a lot of different kinds of emotions.
So I knew that after watching that first episode that I was like, Oho, okay, okay, that message has been received and maybe I need to let it sit for a little bit before I go into the second episode.
Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, you talked about her being a writer, and you're a writer, and you identified with the vulnerability that comes with that, and then also she's a black woman. Do you think that the feelings that came up came up more easily because you were able to identify with the main character, like squarely see yourself and this person shoes.
I think so. I think there's always a sort of distance that you have with the character that you're watching on television, not just be because they're fictional, but because they're drawn not to be you. You know, there are different ways in which I would differ, and that can make a viewing experience be so much more rich because you're like, I would never do that, like or wow, what if I did do that? You know, you can have differences and be able to imagine yourself in those situations.
But I do think when it's specifically a black character or a black woman character, that there's something in me that really wants to root for them, like I will make an excuse for everything that I feel like they did wrong.
And that's.
I don't know. I will I will be on their side a lot more easily, I think, or at least it can be like that for me sometimes.
Like you have more empathy for them, Yes.
I would. I would say that I have more empathy, more length, more grace, more hope, all of those those great feelings.
That's interesting because I think as Black Americans growing up, we're taught at early age to identify with white characters. Know whether it's through like the classic Disney movies or even the majority of books assigned to us in public school.
So when there is a black character that you see like you see yourself or at least someone that you love in them, and then that attachment and those emotions are different, at least for me, and it sounds like maybe similar for you in this case with I May Destroy You.
Yeah, I think so. I definitely can relate to this idea as a Black American of being taught to identify with white characters, but ashamedly I don't even know if that's a word, but it's about to be today. I definitely would imagine default white characters a lot of the time because I was so immersed in so many worlds
where I was imagining white characters. So it is where they are a black main character and you see them traversing their ways through different situations and thinking and being complex and doing things that are in opposition in one moment, doing something that seems out of character based on what you have already assumed about them so far. It's really refreshing.
Yeah, that main character energy, Like you get to see them be super complex, like even with white shows that I really like, I found myself identifying with the supporting characters like, you know, I love the office back in the day, and everybody else don't do that. But I never identified with Michael the manager, the boss, like he was funny. He was a terrible manager. I saw many Michaels in my career. But when I watched the show and I saw Stanley, I was like, Stanley is me and I am Stanley.
So Stanley, he's the black guy who took naps during work and left right on time.
Yes, yep, and that's me. That's me all day, every day. But back to I may destroy you looking back, why did you keep watching the show? And it wasn't a I started this show but never finished it type situation.
So, first of all, it's not hard to watch michaela Cole do anything. So I knew that I was going to enjoy the rest of the show based on the first episode, of course, but also just based on the history of MICHAELA Cole's work, and I it is one of those ironic feelings to where it's something that I know that I'm watching that is hard subject matter for me to watch in moments, especially not knowing what's going
to happen next. But at the same time, it is enjoyable to watch because there is not just focus on assault and on violence, but there's also focus on her friendships. There's focus on moments of brightness, even if that's just small moments of gritty humor, those things still do show up. So even though a lot of it is dark, there is still balance in the things that are talked about
in the sweetness in the familiarity of black friendships. First of all, of how they show how black people show up for other black people even when the relationships are complicated. So even when spilled alert in the show, when social media starts to become an issue, it's still it happens in friendships. You know, there are things that come between us that break us down, that we get through that
may be petty, but we still argue over that. We when we become jealous of friends maybe you know, different situations that happen within friendships and also within sexual and romantic relationships. So it's a multi layered show which has a lot of different elements in it that allow it to be enjoyable even when we're having these revelatory moments within that.
Yeah, so it sounds like it really captured you with the complexity of you know, a world that looks like the real world. I'm doing air quotes there. But you know, sometimes you watch a show and even if you like it, you're just like, this could never happen. But with I
may destroy you. And it sounds like she's kind of an emerging, kind of well known writer, someone in the early stages of their career, but has a lot of other stuff going on, Like she's just not set up living the life of luxury, so she still has like real stuff to contend with. I think you convinced me to watch it. I was a little hesitant because I did hear that it was dealing with sexual assault.
So yeah, and it's no shame in taking your time to watch something. I mean, we, like you said, we are in the age of having many, many things in media that we are able to consume. So tell me and all of the other people about Abbot Elementary my pleasure.
I love this show, but I have to profess my love after this ad break and we're back. I love this show.
You know.
I've been with miss Quintus since she was making skits.
In a large corps A large You got money, he got money, get it all more.
I wasn't expecting to love the show like I do. Like I expected to like it. You know, I expect to support my girl no matter if I didn't like it. But you know, it was advertised as a sitcom, and I am not a sitcom girly. I usually find them a bit corny. But you know I was gonna tune in no matter what, support my girl. Okay, okay, But so for the uninitiated, Abbot Elementary is about a group of teachers and an underfund school in Philadelphia and how
they navigate teaching their students with limited resources. It's like mockumentary style, like The Office, and it's a comedy. The interactions between the teachers and the commentary that the students provide is hilarious. Like living and working in poverty isn't funny, fair enough, but the situations within that environment do get kind of hilarious.
Okay. So, Katie, looking back at that first episode, what was going on in it and how were you reacting to it?
So we meet Janine, the main character played by Quinta. She's in her second year of teaching and I describe her as earnest, eager, even And you know, I've definitely been that girl. I'm embarrassed by how ernest I've been in the past. So she's definitely in her earnest eager era and she's not embarrassed yet. We also meet other characters, including other teachers, the principal, the janitor, a sub and some of the students.
It's giving ensemble casts.
Oh yeah, and they work really well together. So the first episode were introduced to the cast and the overarching conflict in the show, which is the school not having enough funding to get the things they need for their students. In this case, it's the rugs for the classroom, like
you know, the storytime rug. So Janine our eager mcbeever gets the principal to put an emergency funding request to the district, which is approved, but then the principal misappropriates those funds to get a sign on the outside of school that includes a nearly life sized picture of herself.
A plastic sign. Thank god for the school district, because they gave us three thousand dollars and I had to spend all of it. You've spent all of the money on this rushed up. Can you believe it's quality? Dang?
But not not all is lost, a veteran teacher calls in a favor and gets free Philadelphia Eagles rugs for the classrooms. Instead, the teachers were able to subvert the system and authority to provide for their students.
Okay, so how did you feel watching it?
I felt two ways, like as someone watching a new show and if someone watching a creator do something that could catapult their career. So from the standpoint of watching a new show, I felt like, these people are fun, They're a good team, they work well together. You know, I had my eyes peeled for a budding romance.
Of course you did.
And I felt really safe watching the show. I knew there was going to be conflict because that comes with storytelling, right, But I didn't anticipate being traumatized or any jump scares or heart wrenching plot twist. It was just a wholesome, non corny, funny TV show and I felt warm and ready to see what happened next.
Okay, so I am very interested in using you using that word safe. So what does it mean to you to feel safe watching a show? Because I you know, I'm a horror girly, so a lot of things I watched I know that I'm not going to be in a safe environment when I step into that world. So what is it about you and your experience of enjoying viewing things that you want to feel safe in and that does make you feel safe.
Yeah, that's a good question. So I'm not a horror girly, but I also am a thriller girly. So I do like stories that don't provide that safety. But with a sitcom focused on black people, especially black kids is in the school, like the kids are all around, I didn't want to see anything that was going to make me sad and I saw like on Twitter, people were like, Quinca, you should have a school shooting episode, Like be fucking
for real? Who needs to see that? Like we see that on the news every time we turn on the TV.
And some somehow, some way that people always want the drama.
Yeah, some of the episodes get very awkward, but it's never like that.
It's like.
It's on a good level for me for what it is. I'm not coming to Abbot Elementary to cry, you know what I'm saying, Like, I'm not coming to Abbit Elementary to be staring at the screen a minute after the show ends with my mouth wide open, like, I just want to have fun. Let's have a vibe. That's all I need.
That's real. I respect that. And so when you say you're watching Quinta at the same time.
Yeah, So, like for a lot of shows, I don't really know or care who created it as long as it's entertaining. But for Abbot, I knew it was miss Quinta's and seeing her transition from viral videos to working at BuzzFeed and now she has a show on ABC, it was like witnessing a very pivotal point in her evolution as a creator and storyteller. And I don't know
what's in the future for Quinta. I believe a lot of good things, and I believe Abbot will be the conduit that will open a lot of those doors for those cool opportunities coming for her. So I think I just felt like a sense of wonder and endless possibility. I felt excited for her, I felt hopeful for her. I was just like, go Quinta, goll Quinta, Go Quinta.
That's still interesting to me because we're talking about first episodes, but you're also kind of talking about these premieres for people, and of course there's work that's leading up to it, but pivotal moments of change of new beginnings for people.
So if you see that happening at the same time for a creator of a show, especially if they're just so integral in something that so many people end up loving and really admiring, that work at the same time, and it's kind of like you're starting something with them, and I can imagine that feels really good.
Yeah, it's like I was there episode one before the Emmy.
Now that's a flex. I'd never heard not episode one, not day one episode and I know you did some work before then. Yeah, I didn't I know about you did, but I caught up. I caught up. Okay, I got there ually.
Yeah, that's how it matters.
So it's like you were watching Janine the fictional character and Quinta the real person at the same time and feeling different things.
For them, different but similar to I think that Uinta, like Jeanine, has a really good team that really works well together, else the show wouldn't be garnering the attention and getting the reaction from fans that it has. I wonder if you had similar thoughts about Michayla the person and Arabella and I may destroy you.
Can you tell me more about what you mean by similar thoughts?
Yeah, like, did you see Mikayla in a pivotal point of her career as you were watching Arabella go through her struggles or did you just focused on the character.
So I did know that there was a history of Michayla Cole herself being sexually assaulted, and that kind of that had a lot to do with why she created this show, But I wasn't so much focused on MICHAELA Cole in real life and what was happening with Arabella, even though there was that intrinsic link to MICHAELA Cole the real person and her character, and of course the element of her being an artist in the show as well, that because she was a writer, But I didn't necessarily
see or think about as I was watching the show, And maybe that has something to do with it wasn't so humor based. You know, you were watching something that was sick. I was watching something that had humorous moments, but that was about the drama more so, even though it did have lighter moments in it as well. So maybe it had something to do with that, and that's why I was able to separate those two worlds.
M I'm like, oh, you said this is so great, You're gonna do great, good job. Quld do a good job? Like I think about the person behind it, because there's it takes so much to create art. It does, and so I'm I'll think about that, like, oh, like she really worked hard. Like this is beautiful cinematography, this writing is great. I'm really not in it, you know what I'm saying. I'm distracted think about everything else. But I I like that you're able to immerse yourself completely. Yeah,
it's the I think it's the yoga. It's that, you know, I.
Try to take it one step at a time. Be here now, I'm in the moment.
Okay, I'm curious as we wrap up our first episode, how does this beginning feel for you?
You mean, begetting this podcast? Yeah, it feels great. First of all, I love starting new things with you, Katie. That feels good, doesn't it. Yeah? I mean we're our own two person cast of characters here, starting crew, a
monthly crew, starting our own thing. I love that we are able to start something together because we have so much more ahead of us, right, so we know that when we start something new, that that means that there will be many, many other things in the future, that there is potential for growth and there is potential for new, unexpected things to happen. And I think that's the case
with first episodes as well. It's like there's that big and like really bubbly feeling of anticipation of not knowing what's going to happen next, and in shows not knowing and also being excited because you don't know what's going to happen next, because the world is your oyster and we're sharpening our oyster nive.
Come on, Zora. I have so many feelings, even conflicting feelings. I feel hopeful. I also feel kind of nervous, you know, like hopeful that we'll create something artful and smart and every other positive adjective there is out there and it will grow in the direction it's supposed to, but also nervous because it's hard being seen trying in public, right, And that's what a podcast is. Yeah, just in someone's ears and they're in your thoughts, and it's really nerve wracking for me.
I hear you, KD, I affirm that, and it is I think that is the pain of being an artist in general too, where you try in public, but there's no way we can ever get around that, right, Going back to this idea, if there's something you want to see in the world, then you have to write it. It's also like when there is no writer who says when they're finished with their book that there's nothing they would change about it. But there is some point in that process where you have to let go of the thing.
You have to release it to people because you're writing it. It wasn't meant for you to hold on too. If it was a thing you weren't planning on holding onto, you wanted to share it with the world, and you wanted to share it with the world for a reason, So trying in public, that's also part of the process, and that process is just as important as the finished product.
And with first episodes as in TV shows, as this is a first episode as well, we have to remember that there is more to come, and that there in lies more potential for change, more potential for progress, and that things don't have to be one hundred percent perfect and beautiful for you to release them. You know, we're all figuring things out as we go along. That is applicable in our art, but that's also applicable in our lives in general.
Something I definitely need to work on because I'm a don't put it out till it's perfect girl.
Mm hmm.
And that's how I'll be doing It.
Came back to bite you.
It's like I need to be perfect, but then like, I'm also not a perfections so I was like never going to get perfect, so it's not gonna happen. That's why I have you to push me, and I will to be better, be best.
And I will.
Well, it's about that time at the end of every episode we'll give credit to a person, place, thing, idea, whatever so eaves Who or what are you giving credit to today?
I am going to give credit to MICHAELA. Cole's book Misfits. As you know, Katie, because you've known me for a very long time, I can often feel like a misfit, often feel very unconventional, and so MICHAELA. Cole's book Misfits was a short read based on a speech that she gave.
But I've found that it's one of those things that you can find these little small nuggets of inspiration and just encouragement to stand the path you're on, and be true to yourself and be fearless in the way that you present your offerings to the world, and exist and express yourself in the world.
Love it good turn. I think I'm willing to give credit to all the black podcasters that came before us. Specifically, I'm thinking about Heaven and Tracy in this moment. They were the first. Another Round was the first podcast that I was like waiting for the podcast to drop, like that's what type of listener I was, and they just showed me. It's just like two black women can make a show like that's fine, that's cool, people will listen, people will love it. So yeah, I want to give
them credit. Hope they're doing well in their pursuits now. But I definitely go back to the Another Round catalog from time to time and reminisce.
And I love that. So this was our first episode in a beginning for all of us together. But this won't be the last time that you all hear from us, So we'll see you again next week. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on themeshow. You can also send us an email at
helloat ontheme dot show. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.