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Media haters get a bad rap, and for good reason. They demean, ridicule, and well hate, but there are oftentimes a catalysts in many of the black storytellers we know and love origin stories. This week's episode, I'd like to thank my haters.
I'm Katie and I'm Eves, And in this episode we'll discuss hater's place in the black storytelling ecosystem. We hear about haters and songs, memoirs, acceptance speeches and the like. It's possible that without haters we would only have a fraction of the black stories that we have today. You know what they say, No, Katie, what do they say?
Hater's gone hate? Okay, hate, hose ain't happy and happy hose ain't hating. There'll always be haters, that's the way it is. Hated. Niggas marry hater bitchesn't have hater kids. That's enough, Katie, Okay, we get it. They say a lot about haters, a hell of a whole lot, like for a group that is so widely disdained, they always get shouted out. And as a hater myself, I think it's time, we look at haters for what they truly are.
And what is that?
Muses?
Okay, muses, that's very flattering, And you know what, it absolutely is an art form and black folks have taken full advantage of its storytelling power.
Everything in storytelling does not have to be positive. Haters are storytellers too, and they inspire a lot of storytelling too.
Yeah.
True, true, But I'd say a hater is someone who is always looking at the negative, quick with critiques, slow with compliments, most likely because they're jealous of whatever or whomever there hat.
Okay, that's not a very good description of somebody and you identify as.
That, Yeah, I mean not all the time, but I definitely can go there, and I think everybody does. But I'm just self aware enough to admit it. I'd be hating shit, Okay.
I like how you flip that on his head. You're self aware, Okay.
I mean I'm talking petty stuff like I'm not talking about hate cryings or white supremacy or cyberbully and I ain't into all that.
And we're also not talking about people who offer criticism from a genuine place right exactly.
No one's above constructive criticism. That's not hating.
Okay, good, I'm glad we're setting some boundaries around this.
I'm a hater, but I'm Rickory. Shit, dude, you have an instance of being hated one.
It takes a certain amount of bravado to say that somebody, there is a person alive in this world who even wants to hate on me or has a reason to, but so humbful. Look, I guess this is how we're different. And no, I'm just kidding. But I did think about it, and I thought about a moment that I was very annoyed by, and I didn't understand why it seemed like
someone had animosity toward me. And this person was older than me, and this person was in a position of power because they were one of my professors in college, I thought that I did finding class, and according to the grade that I got in that class, which was an A, I thought the professor thought I did find
in class. But at the school, you could go and see comments that your professor's left about you, and I'm looking through the comments, and I remember getting to the specific professor's comments and it was a total one eighty from the experience that I had in class she and I were cool. We had no beef whatsoever, Like I would even even like she's complimented me in certain instances. I go look through her comments. She says stuff about me and like she was a partier. She would always
come to class late. That was not true at all. You know how I am about school. I came to class one time every class.
I'm not So she was lying.
Like she was no, not low key, she was lying.
So what do you chalk that up to jealousy envy?
Because like, what else would it be from a person who is literally twice my age?
So she saw you like a young artist like out here, like on the precipice of life, and she was hating. She was jealous because that had passed for her?
Or I mean, I don't want to guess, because my guess is as good as yours, and I to this day am confused.
Well, that falls into the old hater trope.
Excuse me? You have tropes here?
Oh? Absolutely, you really have thought deeply about this. I know, why would a hater not think about Hayden? I actually made my own official, unofficial list of hater tropes, and you'll get to decide whether you all into any of these categories. After the break, all right.
We're back, and I for one am ready to crack open your hater's handbook. So let's get into these tropes. First.
There's the classic motivation trope where the hater hates, which motivates the hate t to prove them wrong, and when the hat eventually succeeds, the hat t turns around to taunt the hater with their success.
Okay, that's very intricate. I must say also that I love the term hat t.
Yeah, I think you might have coined this. Yeah, don't try to take my stuff, y'all. So we see the motivation trope and tis aptly named motivation.
I honestly, Katie, I do feel like it's a little bit spiritual and it feels kind of Buddhist in a way, like I did some Buddhist study and I continue to do so. It is to me relevant to this idea of tolerance that does come up in Buddhist sutras. So the idea of letting your haters be your motivators is it can be viewed from like a deeper lens. I feel like where you're saying that there are people who you know are in your life that are going to
cause you pain. You know that there are people who are going to say some stuff about you that you don't like, and that's going to be coming from them, and that doesn't have anything to do with you. And indeed, you can use that as fuel on the fire. You are practicing tolerance in that way. And of course I want to say here to be very clear about it, that I'm not talking about abusive situations in any way.
N'civing and a Buddha philosopher.
I mean, I maybe wouldn't go that far because he has a whole lived life, but parts of it. And for this song and this idea of hating the songs and the lyrics in the song kind of became a
monitra for the people. Yeah. It's like, instead of letting it be a thing that festers in a wound and grow and be something that you in turn choose to reflect back to the outside world, you choose to sit with it, acknowledge it, and then instead say, instead of letting this thing ruin me and using it to ruin others, I choose in this moment to make the decision to let it be something that motivates me.
Yeah, I mean, I think in the instance of the motivation trope, it is an example of it festering still, even though fester has a negative connotation, Like the hater is very much in this person's head and they're saying like, oh, I'm want to prove them wrong. I'm gonna do this.
It's a lot of external what's the word, like external locus of control A little bit, I would say, okay, because it's not like it's just in you, like I want to be successful because just because that's in me, it's like this person did me wrong and I'm going to prove them wrong. Right, That's how I see the motivation trope. Huh. And we see it. We see it
a lot. There's there's so many examples of that, and it's like, well, if this hater never came around, would you just be like right twiddling your thumbs.
Hmm. Yeah. I think that's a very interesting point because from that comes this idea of like, what's the value judgment between external factors weighing on you versus internal factors weighing on you? And it's one better than the other.
So I see what you're saying, because in one way, it can be the very opposite of something that's conscious and mindful and thoughtful, because you're only doing it to spite somebody else or to prove something to somebody else, versus it being something that you would do without any
sort of outside sway or influence. And I think that's an interesting conversation, but I don't necessarily think that that negates the idea that it could be conscious, because we live in a world right we have to interface with other people and we have to choose how to respond to them. And it's not like you can control what other people say to you or do to you. You can only choose how you respond. So pretty much everything we do is a response, whether that's internal or external.
For sure, my mom is always telling me and Katie, you choose how you respond to me, and I'm like, well, I'm choosing violence, and that's valid, Katie.
Thank you.
So next is the bad trope, and this one is a fun one, and this one, the hater hates the Haiti succeeds despite the hate. But in a surprise twist, the hater tries to hop on the bandwagon. But our Haiti has not forgotten, and our Hadi reminds the hater of their initial hater ways. Okay, so we see this in Cardi B's Bronx season. It's a really good example.
And it's secret to me just because that you stripped, but it's so good because now they want to get up in my pip.
So I feel like this is one that is very prevalent in rap. So I guess it can operate in a way that is holding a grudge and it's something that you're not able to let go of, but it can also be a thing where it's boundary setting. Yes, and it's like you did this before, I don't know you won't do this again. Is it healthy to have you in my life? Why are you here? Because what are your intentions for coming back?
Snake?
What do you mean by that?
Okay? I feel like there's a lot of like childhood fables or folk tales about like a snake that like bites you after you help them, because it's like I helped you, Like why would you do that? And the snake is always like, because I'm a snake, that's what
snakes do. And it's like if a person shows you that, when you down it out, you know, whatever that looks like for you in this example, Carti says it was her stripping or like, you know, trying to get it out the mud and they hating on you, and then when you did your big one, they want to be in the in the group like, oh, yeah, I always knew it, Like, no, you know you didn't. You would actively try to make it not happen. And so I mean, is it holding a grudge? Sure, but I feel like
that has a negative connotation. I like the boundary setting because you already showed me who you are. And I feel like black people love this quote. You know what I'm gonna say, a Black people love this quote, but it always boils down the haters on no one shows you who they are. Believe them who they are.
Believe them, Yes, absolutely, A person says to you, I'm selfish? Are I mean? Are I am unkind? Oh I'm crazy? I believe them. They know themselves much better than you do. And I think that applies, especially so in a case like the one you just mention it, because it's like you were doing this to that person when they were
having difficulties. It's easy to treat people well when they're having a good time, when they're doing well in their lives and you want to be in their circle exactly, or when they can help add to your image in some sort of way. But when you're down and out and this person is hating on you and they're not helping you out and they're not being like offering positive reinforcement in your life, then you really just you're not
a great person. So yeah, I definitely I can see how you would lean toward the boundary setting side, because it can be holding a grudge, but I could see how it would be more toward the other side, because if you have a history of a certain relationship with somebody, then you're gonna act in kind. You're going to act as that person treated you.
Like, not letting them too close because you've seen how they act. And I think if you like, oh, we're cool, you'll always gonna be looking at them sideways anyway.
And that's where you lean into the whole situation of being cordial, right, which is a weird place to be in with people.
Girl, don't let me see a nigga out it's on site. I ain't no cordial about it, you know what. And this is like, this isn't this is a cousin to another Another way of hating that I've seen is called the controversy trope. Okay, so it's the cousin of the bandwagon trope, especially in the online world. Let's say you
know another popular rapper, a popular writer. Some artists putting out something, They're always going to be on the opposite of what they put out, like, oh, this song is bad or this op ed is whatever negative adjective, just so that they can be in the news cycle, because I feel like with journalism there's like a lot of
both siderism. So it's like, oh, well, you know, this op ed talking about black lives matter, written by this black journalist came out today and people found it really enlightening. But this one conservative thinks that all black people should die, So we have that out there too, you know what I mean. So it's like you are like using that
person's cloud fame to elevate yourself, uh huh. And I find it a bit disingenuous because I'm like, yeah, I don't disagree with everything this person says, but you know how the algorithm works, you know how the news cycles works, so that your name could be an association with them. So if you are googling Beyonce, if you're googling ton of Hosey codes. If you're googling you know, whatever, famous person, your name shows up in that and that starch history too.
So I feel like that's a cousin of the bandwagon, Yeah.
Because at once you're attaching yourself to that person in order to feed off of their You're parasite.
Ooh, that's that's the name parasite.
The parasite trope.
Yeah.
Yeah, And that's a very of this age trope. It feels like some of these other ones have spanned across time.
I feel like more more current.
Definitely it is, and I guess we'll see how it continues to evolve in the future. But we should be more self evaluatory about it, because it's so easy to fall into these things as people who have to make livings in this world, especially if you're a media and you're doing online and your lifeline is kind of attached to being.
Online, right and having an opinion.
Yeah, we're forced in these boxes. But and yet we don't evaluate the choices that we make and the consequences that they have, and the way that it reflects on how we choose to talk about other people in the world who have their own lives and their own images to deal on their own reputations that are on the line as well, And it's like, we're kind of damned
if we do, damned if we don't. We're damned if we do morally ethically because of the things that we're saying about this person for the click for the story, But we're damned if we don't because we kind of need to do that to be able to pop, to stand out in this landscape.
The other thing I would say is I feel like the Haiti definitely plays into this trope the most because I remember, you know, there's a Reverer that I used to like, and she would be doing cool stuff and you know, comment little positive things like oh you killing it, go girl, love to see it, blah blah blah, and you know, as social media is an interaction, but I noticed that she would never reply to any positive comments about her. But at what, like there could be one
hundred positive comments, let one person say something negative. She's writing a five paragraph essay and I'm like, girl, are you dumb? Like what do you think this is going to do? So next time, when someone knows that they want your attention, want you to respond to them. What do you think they're going to do. They're going to say something negative because they know that really gets under your skin.
And it's so fulfilling cycle.
Yeah for sure, because like I mean, I know, I'm not going to say nothing crazy publicly about anybody, but like some people are just like, well, I want her to respond either way. So I'm not gonna say anything nice because she doesn't respond to anything nice, you know. So I feel like this trope in particular, parasites are annoying and you want to scratch at them and pick at them and like get off me. But I feel like it just attracts more.
And that's the word.
Okay, okay, okay, this is my favorite trope. Okay are you ready?
I'm ready.
I call it the old switch roo. So in the old switcher root, we have a secret hater and the secret hater only likes the hat when they're struggling, you know, trying to make it but really not there. But when the haiti becomes successful bounced switcheroo, the hater reveals their true hater ways.
Okay, so why is this your favorite? You know?
I like the drama, the intrigue. The hater's a little steals, probably sabotage in the Haiti, so they remain in the muck and the mud with them.
So are you this type of hater?
No, if I'm hating on you, you will not be in under any illusion that we're friends. So you're safe, okay, and you don't follow rappers personalized. But the person that comes to mind to me for falling victim to this trope in particular is Megan thee Stallion. She addressed the situation with her best her ex best friend, and her song ungrateful.
If I was still and you broke in, we won't be I feel like this is an antithesis of the last one, because when they're down and out, everything's cool. Yeah, And then once a person gets some fame, gets people talking about them, is in the news, is in the press, or they're just or they're just watching them, and they're in a position that they want to be in, then then that's when they become a hater. But they've been a hater all along, is what you're saying.
It was latent.
It was latent, okay.
So I think if the person never became successful, you would never see that.
Okay, okay, oh that is that's a stressful way to be That's a stressful way to live as a person because that means that you're like for somebody is disingenuine the whole time. But also like, let people be successful because there's only so much room in life to do things, and like so few of us are going to be successful. I guess in like grand or larger than life ways. So I don't know, I don't like this one KB. This is this one bothers me?
Yeah, and that said it's my favorite. Yeah. I think it's the thing about proximity. You know, maybe they aren't self aware enough to know that they were going to have this reaction, but because of the proximity, it's like we're friends, Damn, we like the same beach, Like why not me?
You know what I mean?
You know what I'm saying. So it's like, for in Megan's case, her friend who I believe she's known since at least college, you know, this girl wrote a distrack, a rap distract to began this stallion. So it's clearly you're like, oh, I could do it, she do I can rap too. It was terrible you're not Megan, sweetie. Embarrassing, so embarrassing, But it's like the why not me? And because of the proximity, it's like, even because I feel like haters at the core, it's always why not me?
But because you know that person that switcher rough happens that you might not see coming as the hater.
See. The only thing I will push back on is I wouldn't say across the board, it's always a why not me? I think you're giving humanity a little too much credit and saying that it's probably always why not me? Because I think sometimes people just want to see the world burn. They just don't they don't care. It enlivens them to release this hate and energy. How do you feel about this trope? Like do you think that it is one that is prevalent in our time right now?
Yeah? I mean, and even what you said about like our lives are sure and like not all of us are gonna be successful in like these really grandiose ways. I think it doesn't even have to be grandiose. I think I could get a fucking new a new Honda Civic. IM just don't like to too.
What can be riding down the street and you get to a red light and they're looking at you real say, wait, you know what I'm saying.
It doesn't have to be grandiose. It could just be like, dang, like she she got a new job before I did. I can't believe that she. I don't know, she got on a cute outfit and I don't. You know what I'm saying. It really doesn't have to be grandiose. It's like, it's it's levels to this, and I feel like this
trope falls on every level. But I do think it's the proximity and the friendship or even maybe like a familial relationship where you can see this a lot of the times because people they grow up seeing you a certain way and they want it's comfortable for you. Be like that's her, I know her, she's like this. But then when it's such a when you see a change, it's like that makes me a little uncomfortable.
Yeah, what a sad way to walk through life. I'm sorry to these people. Sorry to that man. Okay, So I noticed that all of your examples came from songs, specifically a rap songs. So are rappers getting hated on disproportionately? Is this like a systemic issue or something.
I noticed that too, and I don't think so. We definitely have some R and B hater bombs like Dustney's Child So Good, where Beyonce says this is for them haters that said we wouldn't make it. Now we're doing platinum and now y'all can't take it. For all the people around us, it's been negative. Look at us, now, see how we live.
That sounds like it fits into the motivation trope.
Ah, yes, young guys happened. Indeed, I learned quickly. But I do think the nature of hip hop, the bravado, the grit, lends itself to this theme. I'm sure blue singers were getting hated on too, but because of what blues is as a genre, they probably felt more defeated after the interaction, like Buddy Guy talking about I can't win because I don't have a thing to lose, Like uhuh.
I'd be surprised to hear a rapper admit.
That it ain't gonna happen if they ain't won, the story ain't done in the facts.
I do think the hater is a fruitful storytelling device, though, like all good stories, have some sort of conflict and when you're talking about a hater, the conflict is central, and it gives the audience clear heroes versus villains.
And haters get the stories we tell ourselves structure and meaning interesting.
Can you elaborate on that?
Like I used to find myself assigning meaning to the bad things that happened to me, Like this had to happen so I'd have a reason to go so hard and succeed. A lot of the stories we consume teach us that life cannot be easy, and not only are hardships inevitable, they're necessary. So I think haters are a good plug in for an obstacle on the way to greatness. Without haters, the story would be incomplete. Yeah at the real Arian jokes about it in this TikTok perfectly. I'm
trying to build rapple. Let me start.
Stop helping me.
I can't get on the track and say my family ain't never want me to make it. My family never they always hated on me. If y'all keep looking out for me, I need a story that what people want to heal.
Sometimes you absolutely need a hater to tell your story.
So what are some other examples of haters outside of music, I would assume that there's a bunch of them.
For sure. For sure. What I found interesting was that the more long form storytelling, the narrator usually doesn't call the hater a hater out right, and the haters I encountered in books and in news stories had their own tropes.
That's interesting. So why do you think that is?
Probably because if you're writing a book, you're looking at events over a longer view. So instead of saying this person is a hater, someone writing a novel or a memoir will tell a story and write a scene that clearly shows, hey, we got some hatter over here.
It's a little bit more subtle, yeah, just.
A tad letting the audience come to their own conclusions through witnessing actions.
And because songs are short, you got to get in and get out. You really have to get to the point.
And for long form haters, they seem to have more power. The haters were more powerful, m which brings us to our next trope, the old hater old baby more after the break back with some old haters.
Okay, oh goodness.
Can you tell me what this trope is? By the title, I mean, I have an idea.
Based on what the title is. Are you saying that an old person is hating on a younger one? Ding ding ding? Okay, so here comes to generation wars.
I have receipts, and it's just not an old person hating on someone because they're young. It's usually an older person who is in the same field or industry hating on someone in a newer generation who is is in their review, surpassing them or doing it the wrong way.
Yeah, that's kind of like that should be me or similar to like an okay boomer situation for.
Sure, like Jesse Jackson, Oh hair, not Jesse Jackson. You gonna maybe you roll a clip? Oh no, Well, actually the audio isn't the best because sneaky Jesse Jackson was whispering on the hot mic. But what he said was Barack he's talking down to black people on the faith based I want to cut his nuts off.
Oh my goodness, I forgot about that.
The year was two thousand and eight. Barack Obama was campaigning to become the first black president of the United States, and what was Jesse Jackson doing?
What?
Hey? And why what's it? Because Barack Obama was talking down to black people, as he stated on the hot mic, Or was really because Jesse Jackson ran to be the first black president in eighty eight? Was it because Jackson Jackson was looking at Barock thinking that should have been me?
Damn Jesse, And Jesse ain't the only old hater in the political arena, girl, I know the political arena is full of haters, all of them and democracy and black Eddie god Junior writes about al Sharpton Hatten on Black Lives Matter protesters during his eulogy of Mike Brown. Al Sharpton through a job talking about some leaders, mad about other leaders, more folks worried about getting on the program than developing a program.
That's a bold choice for eulogy.
But then in a Washington Post profile he went in talking about I heard them saying that we don't want Sharpton taking over our movement. But my question is what movement? Y'all ain't got nothing to take over? How comes Sharpton sleas in march? Because I organize the march, I brought the crowd, I got the permit. Those parts cost us twenty thousand dollars. You want to run the march, fine, get your own. Damn poor to potties, m you sound just like a girl petty petty, very petty, very old hater.
But in both examples, the old hater has some power still, even if it's waning. They're of a mindset that there can only be one and it better be them.
So I don't think you have to be old to have that mindset, though, no.
I agree. We see this in the novel The Other Black Girl, which looks at office politics and the need for some black people to be the only one or the favorite one.
So can you give the people a little synopsis?
Yeah? So The Other Black Girl is set in the New York publishing industry, which is notoriously white. We have the protagonist, Nella and the other Black Girl, Hazel. Hazel is hired at Nella's publishing house and Nella's excited to have a friend, but Hazel ain't there to make friends. She scoops Nella on a manuscript and has hours long secret meetings with Nella's boss, and of course this leads to Hazel being the office favorite and it threatens to sideline Nella's curry.
Honestly, that's relatable.
Yep, Mine eyes have seen the hated land. You remember Invisible Man when the narrator finds out mister Bledsoe wrote him a negative letter of recommendation while pretending that he was supporting him, which is the reason why he wasn't able to get into college. Mister Blodsoe was white and the unnamed narrator was black, and the narrator getting into college wouldn't hurt mister Blodsoe in any way. He was
already successful white man in a whole other state. But he still went out of his way to be a hater.
Yeah, there are some haters that be hating in truly nonsensical ways. Mister Bloodsoe saw the narrator's light and he tried to put it out.
I don't even know what I call that trope hating to be hating, I guess I think if I were to trit about haters, I do it in the fictional long form way, because I'm no songwriter or memoirs. But I make it a personal rule to not bring up my haters in public forums. Like imagine you're giving an interview, reading your wedding, or even delivering an acceptance speech, and you use even a fraction of that time to address
a hater. The hater want too at that point, like break off a piece of that award and hand it over because they're winning in that moment. Basically, let me tell it, and nobody did anything wrong to me. Everyone's shown love. I like to thank God and my mom a period.
You say that, but the people don't know you lying about it.
Yeah, I mean they can't prove it unless someone comes out like no, I hate her, which is what we.
All want anywhere like that would be a moment of drama that nobody would be mad at.
I actually hate her, immad she.
Is succeeding Katie. Where is that beat coming from?
It's coming from the heart. You know, you rarely hear from the haters themselves, but that changes today. You want to know why I'm hating knowing you because I'm a hater. That's what haters do. Duh. I'm in a Honda, you whip been arranged. I see you out. I'm a hater on everything. Those full eyebrows, I hate them. You're outfit. Gonna shade it. Hate it is a game, and baby, I'm gonna play it. Do not collect to hunt it, do not press go, because when I hate boot, it won't be low.
I won't stop.
Even when you're at the top, I'll be waiting for a bucket in a moth hating on you. It's so much fun. Bonnie and Clyde. I hate on the Run, Smitti Weber Men Jensen. I hate her number one.
Y'all.
Somebody signed me. Now it's time for roll credits, Eves. Who or what would you like to give credit to this week?
I would like to give credit to Katie for him impeccable wrapping skills that she has been developing and honing since we were in middle school. Yes, making raps together. I am so proud of you, Katie. Thank you. Who would you like to give credit to today?
I would like to give credit to soup. Homemade soup is good. You know what I'm saying. I love making homemade soup for other people. I was under the imperson that homemade soup was like inferior at one point. I think because we grew up in a very manufactured tie yeah, very nineties, and you want to go to McDonald's, very soup, can get that chili, But the homemade soup is where it's at.
And on that note, we'll link to the songs we mentioned today in the show notes for this episode at on Theme dot Show. We'll be back next episode.
See You.
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves, Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the sh for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.