Hey, y'all, Eve's here. I know you're ready to get into this episode, but really quick. We have been loving connecting with y'all over black storytelling, and if you've really been loving the show, then we would really appreciate it if you would leave us a rating and review, subscribe to the show, and share it with your friends. Thanks y'all, Now time for the episode. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
In the past couple of years, I've talked to a bunch of people while reporting my book about black bookstores pro to the people out early twenty twenty five. One of those people is Brother y'all or Hokee S. Lover the Third.
My name is Brother Yao Hope Gus Glover the Third. I'm chair of the Language, Literature and Cultural Studies program at Buois State University. I've written two books of poetry, and prior to working at the university, I was the co owner of Caibu Books, one of the nation's largest book stores.
At one point, Brother y'all co owned the most successful black bookstore chain in the country, Caribou Books, Kaboo Clothes, and the Late Oats. We're on that in prose Now. Brother y'ao is up at Bouoi State in Maryland and the co author of Crazy as Hell, a refreshing, insightful, and irreverend take on African American history. Crazy as Hell just came out this week, and what struck me most about it was how funny it was. As a student
of black history, I found it. It's often taught in somber and CPA tones, and of course some of it is somber, but some of it is funny, some of it is poignant, and some of it makes you go, I'll come on now, wait a damn it.
Today on our show, we're sharing the mic with archivists from across the country and archivists who give us stories that they're tired, they're poor, and they're blackfishing musicians. On today's episode, we're passing the mic to authors and archivists to hear their take on little known black history. I'm Eves and I'm Katie. Today's episode Archive Alive. Here's a crazy as Hell story about a crazy as Hell rebel, read by Yau.
Not much is known about Denmark Vessey. We do know that he was a literate slave, like another of our craziest hell heroes, not Turner, and we know that more than one hundred years later, a white supremacist would slaughter nine people at Vessy's church, mother, emmanuel A and me and Charleston, South Carolina. You can look it up if
you want to to know more about the connection. Denmark VESSI won the powerball on the South Carolina State lottery in eighteen hundred, purchases freedom and began stockpiling weapons and organizing folks for a slave vote. Of course we're kidding. There wasn't a power ball back then, but the rest is true. At the age of thirty two, Vessy purchased his freedom with six hundred dollars after winning fifteen hundred
dollars in the lottery. Think about that. Black folks played their numbers today, trying to win the lottery so they can purchase their economic freedom. Vessey's real claim to fame and what makes him crazy as hell, was his organizing what many considered to be the largest plan for a slave revolt in the history of the country. It is said that as he planned a revolt, Vessey even sent word to Haiti to begin to set up international relations.
And that's just one of mini profiles that Hoak and his co author Via four Prince include in the book Crazy as Hell is organized into different archetypes. Here's y'ao.
This idea of framing who black people people are with archetypes is really the way we get out of the oppositions. That's at the core of like the way we view race. Because a problem with black history is Black history is usually white people are just so important in Black history because of the oppositions, because of the binary. But the solution is to create archetypes within black history so that when black people are reading Black history, they're not simply
looking at themselves as opposed to whites. But now they can say, I'm like the badass, I'm like the lawless, I'm like the funky, I'm like these particular people in Black history, And so that decenters this whole idea of the importance of white people when we're telling a Black history story.
Yeah, this was one of my favorite profiles and Crazy as Hell, and I also think it shows like y'all fed, like black people are still playing the lottery hoping to get free. You know, it's not a different level, but you know, I'll be looking at that little mega a million sign and imagine in my life as a free woman.
And you're not the only one, okay, and you know what else? What else? I would also take up arms that part too. It is aspirational when you look up at that sign and you're like that could be me. But yes, as a means of economic freedom, it's not just like we're doing this just for shits and gigs. It's like we're actually trying to survive. And yes, it is a hoarding of wealth, like it's far more wealth than we would actually need to persist. I don't know.
I feel like in a way, yes it's more than we need, but it could feel like an accumulation of all of the wealth that we didn't have over time and what we're owed. So technically it is what we need to survive well.
And in Denmark Vessi's case, I mean, I don't know the translation in today's money, but he took that money and was like, I'm talking piling weapons. I'm getting in contact with Haiti and we're going to free more than just me, which I just really respect, Like, you know, you got to take folks with you, and I think that's what people are really scared of, like when black people not only get it for themselves but help other people get it too.
Yeah. I mean that money clearly is enough to go beyond his own reach. And that was only half of the money that he had. Yeah, I think lesson half, lesson half.
Yeah, So amusing. Yeah. And you know, in addition to speaking to people like brother Y'ao, I also found myself in different archives across the country while researching parts of the People. I was at the Shawanberg and Harlem, the Auburn Avenue Research Library in Atlanta. I've worked with Afro Charities at Baltimore, So I was all over the place and I had this new found like appreciation and respect for the archivist I encountered. So I found some funny
stuff in the archives. I found people's bills passed due then running from their bill collectors, the law everybody. And I was wondering, like, what other funny things that are out there that these archivists who spend a lot of time helping people find things, like people like me researching books, are just doing their own research.
What else is in there? So today we are passing the mic onto archivists to hear some of those stories more after the break.
Up.
Next, Britney Newberry, music and popular culture archivist at Georgia State University Library, she highlights a pioneering incident of auditory blackface.
It started with a voicemail, a voicemail that took me back to nineteen forty four.
Hello, I have a podcast and I am going to be featuring a song that Johnny Mercer had recorded called I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City.
Savannah born and raised lyricist Johnny Mercer was voted the most popularly Young Colored Singer on the Radio from the Abraham Lincoln Junior Club, an all black organization based in Chicago. Johnny Mercer was soaring high. His radio program, Johnny Mercer's Chesterfield Music Shop, was sponsored by Chesterfield Cigarettes. Johnny songs Jeepers, Creepers and One for My Baby and One More for the Road received acclaim and he was writing songs for
films and musicals. He would later go on to write lyrics for Grammy and Oscar, winning songs like Moon River and The Days of Wine and Roses. According to the ad execs for this radio show, this award for most Popular Young Colored Singer on the Radio, certainly must be his signal honor. But there was a problem. Johnny Mercer was white. There was no evidence indicating he gave the award back due to the error or even wreck.
Did the mistake? And why is that?
How did this happen? I go back to the voicemail. As Georgia State's music and popular culture artists, I received various requests from people looking for something in the archives. Can I get a copy of the sheet music for this song or that song? What information do you have on the Atlanta Symphony Youth Orchestra. Can I see the performance contracts you have from the Atlanta International Pop Festival? And on and on, And this day was no different.
The caller was looking for information on the song I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City, sung by Johnny Mercer. According to the researcher, the original recording had a unique change to it that was not present in other recordings, a distinct patter section in the middle of the song.
Salt Lake City is renowned for its beauty.
The snowcapped Washsatch Mountains are nearby.
After returning the call, the research question came down to this, did Johnny Mercer sing like he was black, and is the power section of this song evidence of that. I put my archivist hat on and I went searching, pulling boxes and searching folders, and I found the original correspondence and postcard notifying him of winning the award. It's one sentence. The Abraham Lincoln Junior Club of this city has this date voted you the most popular young colored singer on
the radio. Harris Owens, secretary. The letter from the radio show AD executives called it the award for most Popular Singer on the Radio, leaving out colored. It even references receiving a lot of mail congratulating the AD company. He won the award in nineteen forty four, and the song was released in nineteen thirty four. I gave this information as well as copies of the lyrics, to the researcher and let them decide. Johnny Mercer was born in nineteen
o nine to an upper class family. His family employed black housemaids, who sparked his interests in jazz and blues. As a child, he played with black friends and learned to speak Geechee, the African Creole dialect of Savannah. As a teenager, he listened to what were called Race records by Bessie Smith, Louis Armstrong, and Maul Rainey at the
record stores in Savannah's Black business district. My job as an archivist is not to form and give my opinions, but to provide information so that researchers can make informed decisions and interpretations. So I invite you to do the same. Listen to I Lost My Sugar in Salt Lake City and other songs by Mercer and decide for yourself. Was Johnny Mercer part of the time honored American tradition of stealing from black people or was he simply influenced by
the culture and people around him. What does it mean for him to win an award not meant for a white man? And what does it mean to sound black? Anyway?
I Lost My Sugar in Salt.
So what did you think about mister Mercer? Mister Mercer was giving contemporary times, Okay.
He said, I mean, I don't know if he was ahead of his time, because you know, I wasn't you know around back then.
Maybe they were just doing that. But I was like, oh, you would have fit in Yes, you would fit twenty four. Yeah, he was really trying hard to make himself seem like he was somebody who he was not.
Okay, But here's the realty. And I spoke with Brittany about this, and for the record, Brittany absolutely disagreed with this take that I'm about to share. But I thought that the reason that he accepted this award is because he was passing. Okay, because, as she said that he grew up in Savannah. Yeah, was around the Gulla Geechee folks. We'll go to the black record store. She completely disagreed. She said he was from a very prominent family. Everybody
knew his family, everybody knew they were white. But I'm like, that's exactly what a prominent white family would do. The mother would sneak off, have her a little black baby and be happy that it could pass. And he knew. And black people be clocking people that are passing. They don't be saying too much. They let them live, but they're like, I know you're black.
Okay. So two things. One, I looked at a picture of him and I did wonder, not even gonna lie. I was like, these features be black, Yes they could. It was giving m a lota Okay. But my question for you is if the theory is that he was passing. Why would he want to out himself in a way by accepting the award as being a colored person.
I think it's just like a little nod, a little wink, like yeah you saw me, okay, And cause it could be like ohl, like they think I'm black, they don't know I'm white, but really they know the truth.
But Brittany said like that wasn't true.
He was kind of one of those white people that were like hung out with other black musicians, but only because they were the quote unquote good blacks, and would say stuff like that, like little problematic things like that he was the most racist guy out there. But you know he wasn't no civil rights activist or anything like that, right, So that was my take on it. That's what I thought might be going on. But yeah, there's so many artists that be white and you think they're black.
But is that on us or is said on them? Is that them being performatively black or is that just us not understanding that other people can like work within genres.
I don't know, because nobody listening to himinem go think he's black even though he's in a black genre. Like no one's going to listen to that and be like, that's a black man, you know what I'm saying. So you can be in the genre and still sound white.
I think that's tough because I mean, there are plenty of times when I hear people and I don't know what race they are, but you don't know what race they are.
But I think there is a difference between being like, oh, I can't place this voice versus like, the way this person talks is like a black person.
They're affecting a black dialect in their language and black intonation. Yes, and that's what mister Mercer was doing, I believe.
So.
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, yes, he is an archetype or a prototype for all of the people who are doing that today because there are so many people in hip hop who do it. So I think there is also an element that the first time you hear somebody, unless they're like markedly white, you know what I mean, Right, the first time you hear somebody performing rap, if they have a voice, even if they aren't putting on any sort of affects or dialects, you assume that
they're black. Because it is a genre that we created and we are more prominent in it and more numerous.
But Johnny Mercer's song wasn't a rap song. No, they thought the Lincoln Group, the All Boys, all African American group, thought he was black. But I do think that it's probably like something that occurred more during that time, because now we're like a very celebrity centric society, at least here in the United States. So if you hear somebody, you might go, you know, look them up, see who their kids are, see who their parents are, like, try
to learn all these things about him. But if you just like hear a guy on the radio, like in the thirties, you're going to be like, okay, And that's kind of it. So it might be easier to mistake people's identities maybe race, maybe gender, and all all types of things you get confused because you just hear them on the radio and then go about your day.
So I'm imagining Mercer as a child listening to records and loving them and not having a consciousness around race except for probably all the racist things that he was
starting to be in viute with. But Brittany talked about how he listened to race records, and I'm thinking about how popular those were So I'm imagining Mercer listening to these, falling in love with them, hearing them around the house, having people, adults who were in his life, playing this, and he starts to sing that way, the same way as he heard other people sing. At some point I would imagine he developed a consciousness around race. Is it okay for him to continue to sing in that style
of music regardless of race? Or should he have pulled back on trying to imitate those people that he might have considered people who really influenced the his style of singing as he got older and started putting out his own records.
I mean it proved okay for him. He went on to be very successful. That wasn't the only award he was winning Chile. So other people liked it, and to be fair, I haven't you know, went and listened to his whole catalog. So maybe this is the only song where he let his little black percentage pop out, you know, so he could be founding like a regular white man and all his other discography. I don't know, but yeah, it was giving a precursor to Danny lay.
Meme reference for the online girlies. Is that a meme?
Oh, it's a white woman who's pretending to be a black woman. A singer, maybe R and B pop, but he was definitely laying the groundwork for the black fishing.
So to answer Brittany's question, what does it mean to sound black anyway?
I think it's not something that you can really like quantify with words. Yeah, do you think I sound black?
No? Well, I feel like that's not the best.
No, it's not.
That's what was funny to me. Yeah. I don't think it's something.
That you can truly quantify. And that's why AI will never replace humans.
I think we have a special lay on it as black people though. Yeah, I think we know it better than anybody else what a black person would say or would sound like.
Right, So that's why I'm saying that group that heard him and then gave him that award, I think they were really picking up on something that was, you know, underneath the surface.
For our last story, we're getting into some no.
No, I will go to jail behind this.
That's after the break. Stay with us.
My name is Tiffany Atwater Lee. I'm the head of Research Services at the Atlanta University Center Robert W. Woochef Libraries Archives Research Center. So I'm gonna tell a story about the widow of my favorite archable character here at the aec witch Off Library, and that is Miss Virginia Hope. Mister Virginia Hope was an organizer and a community activist, but she was also the wife of the first African American president of a Morehouse and Atlanta University, doctor John Hope.
After his passing in nineteen thirty six, she did some interesting things to ensure that the legacy of her husband was maintained, and that included some controversy with the Atlanta University Center or the Atlanta University President. So around nineteen thirty seven, right after the passing of her husband, she starts to write about getting access to these personal files that her husband gave her keys to and said one
day you may need these. And so she's writing to the president of the Board of Trustees, asking can I get these files? I've gotten some files from his personal secretary, but I know that there's more, like there has to be more, and so the Board of Trustees president can't really help, you know, he's the Board of Trustees president. And so she decides after about a year and a half of waiting and really not getting anywhere. She's just
going to take them. So she bypasses the president at the time, and she goes to the administration building, the President's office when she knows that both the president his secretary as well as the former president in the interim period is not in the city of Atlanta, and she finds a custodian and she basically says, I left my person there. Can you help me get in there? And everybody knows Virginia Hope, she's the former first Lady, so
they let her in. Then they start to get a little skeptical when they realize she has movers downstairs and so what the supervisor of the custodian is like, she's taking file cabinets. So he writes a telegram to the president of the university, who's rufus Clement at the time, and it's like Ms. Hope is stealing or not stilling.
He didn't say stealing, he said she's taking these files, and so Clement stops his trip and hurries back to Atlanta, and of course the files are missing, and Leginia is ghost. He cannot find her. He is calling everywhere trying to find out. Luckily, he finds what moving company she used and goes to the moving company and says, you know, I get that she paid for this storage unit, so you can't give the materials to us, but can you limit access so she can't get in there until we
find out essentially who owns these materials. So the movie company is like, sure, we can do that. So in this time, they're still trying to write to miss Hope get to understand where she is, and she's not answering anything. She eventually goes to the movers to try to sort through these materials herself, and the movers are like, no, you can't. You can't look at these files. So then
she calls Clement. In that discussion, which he talks about in a correspondence to the President of the Board of Trustees, he basically says that missus Hope said, I didn't want to involve you in this because they had nothing to do with you. It was before your presidency, and these files belonged to us or to me and my family, and so he has said, you know, we can go through these files together and look through them and anything
that belongs to the university. We keep anything that you need you have, and so she's like, no, no, I will go to jail behind this and I will lift everything out on the stand and for everyone to see it. If AU doesn't want that, you all need to go
ahead and let me go through these materials myself. And so he's like no, He's still trying to compromise, and so at one point she says, I'll give you back the files if you change all the locks and you're the only person that can have the key, and so he's like, why would I do that when the only other people who would have access to this are the people who already had access to this, including your husband's former secretary. And so Virginia doesn't like that, so she
basically stops talking to them again. So he's writing to the board of trustees and is like, we need to get these files back, but we don't want to cause a controversy because that could do a disservice to our institution as well as the reputation of Mishope, And so word starts to get out. There's even a telegram from the Pittsburgh Courier. They write to Clymt and is like, we heard y'all about the sue Virginia Hope, what's going on?
With that.
So they're going through this process and then someone has an idea stop Virginia's checks, don't let her get any pension from her husband. And so when they stop the checks, Virginia of course pops back up and so now she's willing to talk and say, okay, how can we get these files? And so, long story short, they decided to go ahead and have it where Leginia Son, the former secretary of her husband, as well as the President Rufus Clement go through these records and divide up the materials.
Those that belong to doctor Hope goes back to his family, those that belong to AU stay with AU. After all of this, AU thinks that this was a victory. They're able to maintain the relationship with Missus Hope, They're able to not have any controversy, get out and get the files back. However, Virginia doesn't feel that way, and so she writes to a huge benefactor of AU and says, essentially, I just lost the will to fight, and so I just still feel like justice wasn't served and I don't
have all of my materials. And the reason why this is such an important thing that I found was because all of this stuff was inaccessible. This was in a huge envelope marked with red stamps confidential, confidential, confidential. It said not to be used or looked at unless under the permission of the president of Atlanta University. And I found this back in let's say, maybe twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, so you know, Atlanta University doesn't exist. It consolidated with
Clark College back in nineteen eighty eight. So I'm like, what is this? So I'm looking through it, and essentially what I believe I have discovered are files that eventually become the John and Legenia Hope collection that is accessible on microphone, that we have that not only their personal relationships and personal papers, but also that of the institutions in which and organizations in which they were active members in. We also have materials related to the AU presidential records.
And so to me, what this really signifies is one the ability for institutions to see humanity and understand this woman essentially just wanted her husband's papers, but also we're an organization. You can't just be still in our papers, right. And then there's also the understanding of at that time, this is nineteen thirty seven, nineteen thirty eight. Historically, black institutions are already kind of given side eyes, right their thought of as not being equipped or professional and things
like of that nature. So if this got out, this really disturbed the reputation that they have been building. I mean, a woman literally walked out with two file cabinets from the President's office. But also I really like it because it kind of just shows, you know, Legia Hope has some position. Again, most importantly, it's providing access to these
stories because they're everyone. Everyone has a story, maybe not where they stole papers from an administration building, but taking matters in their own hand and getting what they want, but also preserving the legacy of their loved ones for those who come after us.
Okay, so put yourself in Mishope shoes. Okay, would you be ready to go to jail about some papers by your your late husband's papers?
You know, I want to believe that I would. So I don't know if me saying yes I would would be the honest thing, Like I'm trying to imagine being in that time as well in doing it. But I want to say that I would you it. I feel like I would. So you are still from the university. I feel like I would, I'm my God, just because I know how like important my family's papers that I do have are to me now. I think because of the perspective that I have now, like I have so
many of my mom's papers and she's not anymore. I cherish those papers. So I'm like wondering the links that I would go to to get them now, dealing with administrations and official things. I don't know that to be truthful, you know, whether I would do it, but because I do care about having papers, and I like collect old things, you know, I like to collect old things. I collect old things of people that I don't even know, So I feel like I might with asterisks maybe, well, what did.
You think the papers would be like in like more I don't want to say, like safer hands, but maybe more like, I don't know, secure hands with the university, because the university is gonna outlive you, and you know, maybe even outlive anybody in your family who would care to keep up with these papers.
Yeah, I think that's a valid point. I think from a sentimental perspective, not a logical one, though I might want to have them in my.
Hands because I was asking Tiffany, I was like, why was she going to work for these papers? Like I don't think I'd be doing all that, you know, I truly don't think I would be doing all that. I was like, what was she doing? Like why was she doing this? So you know, where did these academic streets are that within these papers was evidence that he had a mistress or two.
Between that story and the one you gave at the beginning about Mercer passing you, you really want some extra drama in these situations. You want a whole reality TV show. It's humans. Like that's the thing with archives.
You think like, oh, these people are you know, these you know just historical figures. These are people and they were into some drama, and you gotta think like this upstanding lady, you know, well known in the community, well respected, you talk about I'll go to jail about this. Maybe why because you didn't want people know about them mistresses?
So how did they already know about the mistresses? Though? So if this is word on the street, she just didn't want to have confirmation of them.
No, we're in the academic streets. So people who like research after the five right, you know, if your man got a mistress because it was a mix of university papers and personal papers.
That's one idea. I think I have no idea if that's true or not. But do you think that she would still go to those same lengths just for that, Like I don't know if we also know that the was Luginia's character, like she wouldn't have wanted that out there, that was something that was important to her. But do you think that she would have gone to those lengths to cover up personal misgivings like that, Like that would have justified her doing that still?
I mean, yeah, I don't know her personality, but just kind of thinking of like the time and like, you know, they're high society people and it's just like embarrassing. So I can definitely see this prim proper lady kind of being like, you know, you're.
Still mourning your husband just died.
You're like, I don't want everybody know like all his business like that, and then you know, by the transit of property my business.
I was imagining the whole Mission Impossible theme in my head in the background of her going inside. I mean, she didn't even do a that she was basically just walked in and got them cabinet and said, can you let me? It's social engineering. People do it all the time. Yeah, just like ask for what you want.
And then they were like, oh no, she's breaking the law now, but too scared to actually stop her.
So hey, I left something in the room.
You know something, But you don't play if like someone is afraid to stop you and you're clearly doing something wrong, you send it a telegram instead.
She was on those people's heads.
But yeah, now that which your library at the AAC has her husband's papers and her papers, so I'm sure there's there's more tea and drama throughout those archives to be discovered.
But people can't access those papers, no they can.
Yeah, sometimes when you go to the archives, you can tell that no one has seen or like looked in these boxes since they've been put in the boxes. Man Tiffany even said she found the folder and it was like wrapped up like top secret, like you know.
Do not read. It's just like I gotta look, I gotta see what's going on. Blew the dust stuff got the asbestis going. Yeah.
Yeah, so there's so many things to still be discovered, even if they're in archives, and you know, catalogs and everything, and people just like don't look or like don't put two and two together.
So yeah, they're available. I liked this story because it feels like it's kind of a microcosm of what you're saying here, is that if you go through the archives, you can find all these stories. And it's also about a person's archive of their life, and we get to see how Lucinia really cared for that archive, whether or not it was for scandalous reasons, like she cared for an archive and for like protecting the legacy of his work and the things that he said in his own words.
So I really like this story for that perspective that she gave us.
Yeah, like even if you don't agree with her methods, even if she broke the law, Yeah you know, it was passionate.
Yeah it was. And sometimes passion trump's all. So the ends always justifies the means. Okay, ask for forgiveness, not permission. No, that's right.
So next time you find yourself in an old library or museum, take a moment to slow down and really explore. You never know what quirky, poignant, or downright bizarre stories archives might hold. After all, as these authors and archivists have shown us the most fascinating histories are often the ones that have been tucked away patiently awaiting the right person to uncover them and share them with the world.
And now it's time for role credits, the segment where we give credit to a person, place, or thing that we've encountered during the week eves. Who are what would you like to give credit to?
I would like to give credit to the Black Archives in Amsterdam. I was only able to visit them for a little while when I was in Amsterdam recently, but I got to look through the books that they had a lot of them were in Dutch, so I could not read them. But they had a nice exhibit up there, and we're very friendly and yeah, they have loss of cool stuff to see and I think if you go with the group you can get a tour of the archives. The archives are not available for research, but it's nice
to walk in. I think they do different exhibits there from time to time and host lot of events that are super interesting, so I like to give a shout out to them.
I'd like to give credit to greeting cards, which is something you often find in archives. I used to be really into making greeting cards and giving them, and I was like, that's a practice that I want to pick up, not making them. Actually, I just want to pick up giving greeting cards for like different occasions, you know, like thinking of you, happy birthday.
Of course, just hey, we're pals, like let's keep in touch type.
Ye.
It's the physical mail of it all.
Whenever I get mail, it is junk mail and I am angry that I've gotten it, or it's a bill. You don't want those coupons. I don't want those coupons. I don't be going to bow Jangles. I don't need a Bogo thank you. But knowing that someone like sat down, thought of you, got a stamp put.
It in the mail is really nice.
So I think I want to get back into the practice of sending greeting cards.
Cool, and we will see you next week. Bye. Hi. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us an email at Hello at on Theme dot show head to on themet Show to check out the show notes
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