#62 | Elsa Henderson | Process Oriented Psychotherapy

Elsa has a master's degree in process-oriented psychology and a bachelor's degree in anthropology , and she's currently pursuing her doctorate in organizational studies through the University of the West of England . She also has her son and moon , amongst other things , in Sagittarius , and was my teacher of process work at the Metavision Institute .

In this episode , we discuss the fundamental tenets of process work , a form of psychology that was developed by Jungian analyst and theoretical physicist Arnab Mindell .

We then move into discussing the crux of her current research how people make sense of experiences they don't yet have language for , as well as how we go about getting a sense of a larger whole or gestalt , even when we don't know how the pieces will come together . It's a fascinating discussion . I hope you enjoy it .

If you'd like to know more about Elsa and her work , then you can click on the link to her website in the show notes . Welcome , elsa Henderson , to the show .

What is process work , what is process-oriented psychotherapy , and how do we get there ?

Would it be helpful to speak about some like core tenants or give an overview of the approach or what do you think ?

But maybe to anchor us and the listener in , it's just to get some central tenants . And I always find it difficult because explaining process work to people , I always find like I wait for something to emerge and then I tell them of what is emerging .

When I'm telling them Right , I don't think it lends itself to like it's exactly this , this is the exact thing . But maybe just to anchor , get a couple of the points of like what does it mean ? Because at the moment most of my listeners will be like I don't know what that is .

And you know , one thing that comes to mind for me and this goes back , I think , thousands of years , is that there's this element of kind of constant change and information unfolding rather than reality being static and still and at any given moment there's aspects of experience that are closer to our identity and aspects that are further away .

And just even having that kind of view of you know , parts of my process are more immediate or me and can be known as primary , and other parts are further away and perhaps less me . Maybe I'm reaching towards them , maybe I'm disavowing them , and those are can be described as more secondary .

So that's one aspect , that there's this kind of continuum of our experience , that we can move along , and I think there's a kind of aspect of cultivating fluidity within that , because there's sometimes there's a benefit in moving towards things that are less me in a given moment , to bring them into my identity , and this can also be with a group , right , a group

has an identity , relationships have an identity , and then outside of that identity there's all kinds of other experiences and then there's kind of edges between what's me and what's not me . So process work works like that and process oriented psychology .

And another element that feels kind of resonant for me always , specifically lately , is that there are these different layers to reality . Right , there's a more consensual , quantifiable , objective reality for many of us . You know things we can measure and pin down and label and agree upon .

And then there's another more subjective , nuanced , dreamlike reality where we may be experiencing things very vividly that other people can't necessarily grasp on the outside .

And then there's this other below that there's this very essential level of experience that's hard to put into words because it's pre verbal and pre manifest and many Western traditions speak about that .

But just having that awareness that any in any given moment things are playing out on multiple levels , I think can invite a shift in how we approach a given situation .

I tend to think about the levels of reality kind of vertically and other dimensions of identity more horizontally , just because it helps me think about it spatially , to kind of embody these concepts .

And then there's this edge and one of the things I love hearing you talk about is like edge figures and ones that stand at the edge and go . You go back now , back to your right , your identity . This is not for you or something like that .

Or maybe entices you at the edge and says , like what would it be like to come over this edge and and discover this other side ? But in some ways , even the languaging of it or the , the visioning of it as we talk about it feels horizontal . And then definitely there's the vertical plane , as you said , consensus , reality .

This is what's real , this is what we understand , we can all agree on this it's , it's the senses tell us this is what's happening .

And then underneath that , as you say , the highly subjective dream , like other nature of reality that seems to drop down into maybe we would , we would call that conscious , subconscious or unconscious , like as we drop down , you know , underneath what we know . And then essence . I've always found very , very difficult like it .

Almost once we start talking about essence , there's a , there's a word start to feel really cumbersome and inappropriate .

Or we'll have that experience of witnessing a sunrise . But when we try to explain it with words we can't quite get at the totality of that experience . So people also know this very intimately and I find comfort in that .

There's this framing or notion of sensory , grounded information , of really working with body language and working with the different channels of perception and really helping unfold someone's experience by closely tracking their communication , and that's not just verbal , that's body language , that's what's implicit and not said , but there's a kind of very rigorous practice that

goes along with this . Right , and this is coming out of communication theory , it's coming out of work in neuro linguistic programming and also some of Gregory Bateson's work .

So it's just kind of important for me to like bring in those two sides of the kind of more , the elements that are more kind of energetic , that we might know and resonate with but have more difficulty pinning down .

But there is this other , more almost scientific part of the work where there are so many skilled practitioners around the world and process work who are so able to follow people's experience very precisely .

So I wanted to bring that in as well and just to say like that's what captivated me is because when you witness someone who's really skilled in this work , you're thinking how did they pick up on that ? They can read between lines and they can sense in at this other level and from the outside it looks like some kind of magic , when done well .

And towards the end of the session I brought that very same very thing , which was somebody else . It was like this what we call the relational channel , right , the relationship channel somebody else and instead of I think in regular forms of therapy , it's like well , that's irrelevant , let's go back to what the point of this session is .

Instead of , that process work says like well , that's interesting , that that person should come up and that that scenario and that example or that metaphor or that , even that little bit , that little snippet , and instead of just going like that's got nothing to do with our session , it's the idea that everything that happens within this container is in the session and

is relevant somehow . And my client at the end of that session was like how did you what ? But why bring that back ? Like it's so ? I mean , it's so relevant , but how did you know that it was relevant ? And that's the part that kind of is magical , because you just like I didn't

know . You know , I just held it in the background and made sure it was Still around and nurtured it a little bit in with the background awareness and just had it , had it sitting there and waiting , to see , like , and then when the moment comes and it emerges back in , it almost like ties things back together again .

Right , and over a longer term working with someone , you can tie in things that came up way long ago as well . So you kind of like you are attempting to hold the entire existence of a person , and I think that's what really appeals to me about this kind of work . It is holistic in the most true sense of that word .

You know , instead of just saying I'm not like I'm going to collapse in and only focus on this , because this is what I'm going for , and I think that there's an openness of , oh , this came forward and there's a there's .

That's curious , I'm going to , I'm going to hold that in the background and stay open for what else might arise with you know , with the possibility that this may come in useful or supportive later down the road , and having that larger kind of move through as you move through a situation and this has been coming up a lot lately like even in long term , projects

with a big group of people where there's a way of attending where you're focusing on . Okay , this is the next immediate thing that needs to happen . And these are all the little tasks right in front of us and we're going to follow with the to do list .

And there's another perspective of , you know , holding what comes up in up in the beginning , including what said and what seems obvious , but also other things that happen , like subtle exchanges on the screen , between people that spark your curiosity , and then tracking how these unfold over time and having a sense of this larger unfolding not just this immediate task

that needs to be done and how important that can be for helping people move into a different sense of something that's larger and that could be , you know , a gathering with many people where you're helping create a sense of cohesion amongst many perspectives , but like holding that over time , that that sense of an arc , but also with an individual client , of not

just this immediate thing but these other pieces and kind of it feels like weaving a bigger tapestry somehow at ability .

And we're talking in our just before coming on air about threads and cotton and weaving and yeah , there's a good metaphors for that making a way through a labyrinth , not entirely sure of the entirety of this thing , but still , you know , walking it anyway .

So , yeah , before we leave , process work into what you're doing now , because I'm really fascinated to get to get into this research project and what you're working on for your PhD and and what that looks like , and . But before that I yeah , that's probably just this one more piece of its application , you know , because I could .

Really , when we learn , when we learn with you , there was a sense of mostly we were learning to do one on one work and there was a sense of group work being part of that too . But I wonder , you know , maybe you can speak to because I love , I don't mean there was a world work concepts and what you know .

Some of those examples really struck me as quite powerful . So what talked to me just about the applications of this kind of work ?

That was that I was trying to funnel my attention through . They just made so much sense . So the reason I'm saying that is there is these kind of kind of . We spoke about the levels of reality . We spoke about primary and secondary , and there's other kind of frameworks or mental models as well that then can be brought into different context .

So whether that's our own , you know , we can work with our own lived experience of understanding what's more primary , what's more secondary , what different levels of reality are happening , what channels of perception were more actively experiencing in a given moment , and then also kind of I think parts work has gotten so much more popularized over the past several years

. But this notion of different roles within each of us , that there's a process where we're not just a singular being but we're made up of many different facets and we're very dynamic , and so that can be brought to us , but it can also be brought .

You know , once we mentioned roles , it's very applicable to groups that groups will have primary and secondary aspect , will have , you know , the , the culture and the norms that create a sense of cohesion , but by nature of that , disavow other ways of being and knowing , without even realizing perhaps it's just kind of what can happen and then edges as a result when

someone kind of steps over that norm or , you know , represents a part or a role that perhaps isn't as welcome in the system that wants to be expressed . So there's this whole .

All of these kind of ways of tracking can be brought to a group work and there's a , you know , to group context and there's amazing mark happening around the world with this , like with the deep democracy Institute , really kind of engaging with issues at the group level .

And then there's relationship work as well , you know , working with calls or you know relationships as a system . And then you know , then there's the sub , the subtopics of working with different states of consciousness . You know we might call them altered or we might kind of label them in more . Allopathic .

Medicine is mental illness and work with people who are near death really works with the kind of range of the ways process manifests .

person thing , like I am son , I am father , I am husband or whatever . It might be right , like these roles that you know I'm teacher , I am therapist and these are . So actually it helps me when you said that , to ground it in a different reality , outside of just parts , into roles , so really parts that I play there for , rather than just parts .

I kind of like that that they have a context and then I need to know how to take the hat off and put the hat on into those contacts . I'm not just husband , not just father , not just teacher . You know that I can actually move between these roles . So , like roles yeah , I'm gonna be sitting with that roles versus parts .

You know , even in , like certain spaces , if you're gonna step into it , to know what role to step into in a certain meeting or Conversation , or even if you just have a task , it's almost like each role has its own stance that gives you a different , different sense of who you can be which makes me think that you could get stuck in a role like and then

yeah , then your identity starts to go .

And this is back to Heraclitus right , that there is like Realities and flux . It's a problem , it's not just static .

So it's really interesting little window that we were . We were exploring together and then in that time , obviously things because of your nature , you know , move and you saw you strike me as such a curious , not necessarily a seeker , but maybe a finder , maybe a way finder .

I don't know what , how you see yourself , but definitely your mind is that curiosity , you know , and moving in , moving in these different directions or moving into places that really fascinate you . And so you found yourself at this moment , in 2023 , studying again and doing a PhD In the UK . You know , tell us about what this is that you're up to now .

earlier . I always had this feeling of now what you know , we bring out the different perspectives , people share big Insights and there are these really moving exchanges , or sometimes very painful Exchanges , between very diverse perspectives .

But then now what and I was just holding this question of you know , what is it mean to really have a to create change or to facilitate something more to happen in the world ? And Kind of in that , holding that question , I met a fellow at the food co-op in my neighborhood and he we started to talk about working with groups .

He had worked with groups as a consultant and I came to learn about working with , taking a networked approach to working with groups , so working relationally to collaborate around a shared purpose in service of a larger Impact in a system , and this kind of sparked my curiosity because it had more of a we're moving towards this over here , then just bringing out the

different perspectives . So I started to work more with groups , but in a way of getting them to work together , to go on a journey towards shifting something in a system .

So working with networks on refugee rights , migrant rights , issues related to water access , around education , also around finance and agriculture and in different , most a lot of work in Africa , but also in the US and Europe and Central America and Mexico .

So I guess there's something there about like having a sense of Pattern feels really important to me to know . It doesn't have to be really literal , but in the work that I'm doing , to have some way to to follow how it unfolds .

And I feel like networks were the next kind of manifestation after Process work , and they both are very complimentary as well , because networks are taking so many principles from living systems around relationality and reciprocity and that being so vital for new emergent things to come into being .

And that being the same case with human systems of bringing different stakeholders together , bringing conversation so information is shared in , out and across the system , so that things come into being that wouldn't otherwise be possible , that then , in a kind of organic , nonlinear way , are working on an issue over here , so it's taking in rather than marching towards

that issue and a top-down hierarchical way , we're taking a networked approach .

We're bringing different viewpoints together to work on that issue , but it's a bit more iterative , it's a little less Linear , it happens at a different pace and so there's also this kind of Different way of being that's invited in the shift in people's mindsets , and so a lot of the work , also the past years , was around Supporting people to live into more of a

network mindset , to use my colleagues at converges language . So I was involved in the converge network for several years we just sunsetted this year but that was became my professional home and community , working with Impact networks around the world and developing trainings and network leadership and all of that .

So all that is to say is I was in the world , working and Responding and learning , and then I started to crave on the heels of my Saturn return .

I started to create a space to Make sense of what had been happening and and I was creating depth it felt like there was a lot of breadth and being out and working and responding and , you know , working with clients and supporting them , and my system just really wanted that sense of Bringing it together , finding something more , bringing it down , and not trying

to bring it down in a way that Limited it , but getting really getting more intimately in touch with a different kind of knowing and knowledge . So that led me to embark and do a PhD .

and then you sort of had okay , I got to bring it down and Yep , grounded and make it make sense , and make it , you know , like the now what question ? What do you do with all of this ?

You know , because it is , it can be like so many profound experiences , but they remain Isolated in their own chamber in a way , and you don't really see where they all connect and what they all do .

You work with a group and then you , you go through this big experience with them , but then you say goodbye and then that ecosystems off doing its own things .

So I think there's something in what sharing Chris of like wanting to follow something through in a very being very close with a thread as it unravels and getting to know the like totality of it that I feel like .

I think there's something about the doctorate that perhaps it's even like making the thread or like creating a rope for many threads , that is , you're on the journey every step of the way with it .

And this is saying like , wow , there's so much information here , but it doesn't connect . So how can we connect it all together and then have this huge new kind of emerging field of knowledge and knowing that could really take us where we need to go . And I can see that on a world level .

I could see it on a culture level , I could see it on a nation level and a country level and these you know or a city level Cause I always think about this where the where you know , an ancient Greece , athens at its peak , was 50,000 people , small , very small , right , so you get this sense of the polis .

That's still our reference point for democracy and different things . Right , it's ancient Greece , but the polis was 50,000 people . Now , and in a field of 50,000 , I can know or I can no one know of the people and what's going on , right , so I can feel much more connected to it than in a field of 350 million people .

You can get sort of lost in all of that and like . I think that that sense of like , well , what does it all mean ?

I think , you know , one of the great myth-making movies of last year was everything everywhere all at once , and that , not to spoil it for people , but that bagel , like the hole in the middle of the bagel , being such a good image for our current condition of like . What does it all mean ?

You know , which can lead to such deep apathy and like I don't , nothing I do really matters , which is so , not true , but it can really feel that way . And so you've got a lot of people walking around in the middle of that bagel , you know , or being sucked into that , the empty space , and just being like it doesn't mean anything .

And this can be experiences that also enforce to us that , like your life is meaningless . It doesn't , nothing matters , nothing you do matters , and that sort of deep nihilistic frame that I feel like we can all be .

I can also speak to myself like that's such an area that I can just get sucked into , and then I'm left with this idea of like I can't do anything . You know I can't affect all these big world events that keep happening , one on top of the other , both in nature and in culture , and I can't do anything about that .

And yet , actually , there's something in this work or in this framing of reality that says something different to that or that somehow gives me another frame .

You know , because I think it's something that you've talked about that your work focuses on is experiences that we don't have language for , we don't have a way to describe to people or even to describe to ourselves , and how that gets lost , like in that empty place in the middle of the donut or the middle of the bagel , that empty place , like it's so

disorienting .

. I'm just a moment ago , when you were speaking about you know , the different kind of sizes of you know , cities , or in that importance of feeling connected to it . I think there's something about feeling connected and I guess there's a question of you know .

You know , if we're connected all the time , how do we remember to feel it or how do we become aware of feeling it ? That feels like it's at the core of the work in a way , in terms of helping people remember something Like earlier we're speaking about how you know .

These terms maybe seem a bit abstract , but also like with things like the essence or the presence of someone that we can't quite put into words , but also we know this , and so there's something of feeling , how we're connected to it already .

And I guess in the work that , like my PhD , is exploring , is around how people find their way through situations that are dynamically complex , so they don't have frames of reference for what's going on . They're off the map , they're facing moral challenges , they're facing paradox , and how they find their way through those situations .

There is something that they're connecting to that they might not , you know , if you ask them immediately after the situation , you know how did you do that ?

They're not necessarily able to immediately say how they did it , because it's connected to something at another level , right , it's more tacit or implicit , or it's stored in their passive memory and there's a different level of responding that sometimes we can move intentionally , without it being conceptual , through the world .

something to do with because I was there and I ultimately was part of the making of that thing happen , but I have no idea how , and so it's not replicable in . I can't do it again , which means I can't put it in the lab and I can't make it hard material science , right ? I can't do that with this .

And so it gets , you know , it goes background again and then it comes foreground , and it's such a good feeling when it happens , but then I don't have a yeah , so this is part of your research , right ?

Ultimately , this is part of where you are , the kind of research that you're doing right now , what you yourself are embedded in at the moment , as you're in between the knowing and not knowing , or the not knowing and the knowing in this PhD research .

You know stories that are being shared from practitioners all over the world and something that's been happening is that in being able to reflect on these experiences and paying specific attention to the how , not just the what , like really you know how did you experience that happened , what did you pay attention to what happened next , and really just take apart those

moments , there have been some things that become clear to the practitioner in terms of connecting dots , seeing patterns , and then with that , I suppose there's a hope that awareness then is fed forward into their practice , that it feels less just kind of haphazard and random , because there's more they're connected to it .

There can be something that they weren't necessarily consciously connected with before . Like you know , in certain moments perhaps there's a certain sensation that moves through their body that then informs what they do next , whereas before they didn't really think too much about that . They were just in the thick of it and coping with what was arising .

But there are these patterns and , like earlier , we were speaking a little bit about micro phenomenology and just that . This is all very new to me , but there is kind of a stance in micro phenomenological research , which is really looking at very small moments , microprocesses , micro gestures that lead up to an event .

There's been incredible research done with people who experience epileptic seizures for example , and even in the process of interviewing the people who have seizures , the interview participant becomes aware of subtle sensations and experiences that lead up to the seizure , which then enables them to , you know , call for help because they become a subtle processes that lead up

to an event . So there's something here in this research of getting in touch with the kind of gestural , microprocess dimension of our experience that when you compound many of these you know if you're looking at a certain research topic , these cases , you start to see generic structures that underlie these experiences .

So , in a way of looking more at like a positivist approach to research that wants that like repeatable , verifiable data , there , even in these more subjective cases , there is this underlying structure that when you look at a large enough sample , you start to see a patterning happen . And again , this is very new to me but I find that exciting .

something can happen around , like it's not even coming from me or my own proprioceptive channel or anything like this , or even my mind or my

thoughts . But you know something that the you read a lot in the reading , the ancient works and the old poets and everything you they'll talk about the omen . Like Apollo , realizes it's Hermes that stole his cattle because this eagle flies by .

So that's , you know , like the , as he's thinking about it , the eagle flies by and it's like ah , eagle , zeus , son of Zeus , hermes , hermes is Zeus's new son .

And then he goes I know he doesn't question them because he's the , the signal of the eagle , it's not just a perhaps , but this eagle flying by right at that moment meant it's Hermes that stole my cattle . He knows it and he knows it exactly and he knows where he is and he knows it right and and that's annoying that he follows and is absolutely correct .

It's not a sense of he has to figure out then , well , is it this or isn't it ?

Because it's such an intrinsic knowing and that , and the signal that came back by from the eagle was like , well , it is , and that's that he gets on with it right , like he doesn't question , then that it is because he gets the signal in the same way that if the epileptic can know because that thing comes forward , then yeah , they can be safe when the when

the actual epileptic it happens , and when the process starts to take hold , they can be in a safe environment . What a huge difference that is .

the outside , but it sparks this whole realization and there I'm . It makes me curious about what you're speaking about earlier of . You know , you notice something that you're curious about in a session with a client and you kind of hold that and then towards the end it might kind of come together into this other kind of I don't know coherence structure .

That wouldn't be obvious at first .

These figures and that are in the midst of this huge cosmology and this , this big tapestry of myths , are out there .

And so are they out there , you know , or are they just the pretty lights in the sky , to quote St Zubri and the little prince right to , some stars are guides and the others they're just these pretty lights in the sky , but you start to see them as , as tapestry , you start to see them as images , not just on their own .

Even to connect it to all these other images was what is what the zodiac ultimately is 12 constellations embedded in 66 other constellations , because there's 88 modern constellations .

So you know , you get the 12 in the middle and imagine that that's the central band of story , but they're actually connected to all these other stories , which is the last podcast that I did was on off a UK , which is the quote unquote 13th sign , which is not true , but it's still another constellation that affects and impacts the story of the zodiac , and so

you . So somewhere in there , there's a collective agreement on a very subjective experience of what we're looking at , when we're looking at these pretty lights in the sky right . There's a collective dreaming process and in the collective dreaming that's .

That's true , even though another culture will look at the same sky and say different images , which will also be true like those multiple perspectives and the multiple truths that we were speaking about earlier , right yeah that all between this is one , this is the one truth and this , this is how it is , and then the other pull of .

I mean , I just think about how people , you know how there's a tendency to look up yeah especially when the star out you know that in the thick of it , but also that all over , how we will look up at the sky and marvel at it or even look up when we're in the sense of despair .

gathering or a drawing upon something happens this is so

good .

But I feel like it , as we've said , you know , since grounding that for us of like , because I'm sure people listening are more interested in like . Oh , my god , I've had a lot of experiences like this that don't have language , and how can we find a way to reach out to the listener ? That's that's perhaps contemplating that right now .

Is it , is it metaphor , myth story , you know ? Is it what does help us to make sense of things that don't make sense ?

There's an instinctual element when we're lost and maybe it's also looking up , maybe it's climbing up a tree , literally or symbolically , to get to change your perspective . But there are these little actions or gestures that people do that are so small they might easily get rushed or brushed over , that have a lot of potency in them .

And you know , so far in the research , there are these very particular sensations that people experience that inform what they do . Next , there are metaphors that people focus on that help them move through what is otherwise quite difficult and thick .

Or maybe you know language comes in like that of being lost , of being in the mud and being on a bumpy journey , or on the sea , a tossing and turning sea . So what is it that helps people move through that ?

And then there's also been this has been really interesting there's a very strong multiple people have been speaking about a kind of inner compass , and some people speak about it in terms of a moral compass , some people speak about it in terms of an ethical compass . Some people speak about it kind of their body , almost like a tuning fork .

But this has come up again and again of how people pick up information through their body and how , like , at that sensory level we were speaking about that thread earlier in the labyrinth right that people are following that thread when they can't necessarily make sense or grasp what's happening around them , there is something that they're working with at a very felt

level that helps them find their way through . And it's very moment by moment . It's very much that idea of wayfinding , of they know as they go . They don't know before they don't have some kind of grand vision of what they're moving towards necessarily .

And I'm drawn to sort of like , perhaps answer it from me , answer it from you if you have something emerging . There's two things that come to my mind . It is to come back to my senses , to come back to my body , to come back to what I know internally in my , in my felt sense . That's one , and the other would actually be astrology .

So I can look at , say , my chart and my transit and things and make sense on that much more cosmic scale of like oh wow , I'm going through this , maybe I'm in a Pluto transit or a Neptune transit in it , or or , or a Saturn return or a Jupiter return or something . So I can come back to like , oh yeah , I'm in this .

And that often helps for me personally in my constitution , my soul helps me to calm into like yeah , I'm in this much , much bigger process . Be really curious as far as to what your way is .

And sometimes it's interest in a topic , sometimes it's curiosity that's moving me . But even before the curiosity or the interest , there's a , there's a rising up , there's an increase in energy . It isn't always pleasant , but it has a mobilizing quality .

So there's you know we're talking about thinking as opposed to acting there's something that kind of nudges me into taking the next step , that that helps me find a way through , kind of trying things out . And then you know lately I'd have to say , like my life myth helps me make sense .

And that's this notion coming out of process oriented and originally Jungian work that the early dream , early dreams , recurring dreams , childhood memory has this kind of archetypal blueprint within it of different things that you'll experience throughout your life , not just in a literal form but in a symbolic form .

So we might dream of a monster and that could be , you know , interpreted as something big and scary and horrible , but it also could be just like an expression of raw power and bigness .

And so there's something in my life myth and my just returning to that early dream that's very significant to me that it has this quality of helping me see where I'm at in that myth because there's a kind of story like quality and it also helps me understand kind of where I am in a larger storyline because it feels like it's it's me personally , but also not

just personally , and I kind of naturally I feel like there's a resonance there with astrology of you know what archetypes are more available , what , what you know what might be supportive for me to draw upon right now . And then where am I in like a certain like inner and outer landscape that helps me orient a bit .

This is a fascinating area , very accessible actually , that you don't have to be in the world of counselling , psych therapy or anything like that to access this stuff .

It's very intrinsic and , you know , really encourage people that are interested in in what we're talking here today to to have a look at Elsa's work and and follow her breadcrumbs that she leaves behind for people to get into . How can , how can people follow you and get in touch ?

Bill Say , who's an amazing process worker , has just written a book about life myth , so if people want to read from that it's a great read oh awesome .

That feels like a really great place for us to leave people with definitely a lot of questions and a few seeds , and but thank you so much for for generously opening yourself to to this conversation and to sharing this with with the audience . I really appreciate it .