#56 | Brian Clark | Athena's Judgement | Australia's Moment

We recorded this podcast on October 2nd and release it now on October 13th , on the eve of the Solar Eclipse in Libra . The episode continues on with the year-long exploration of the signs of the zodiac , with interviews with people who have strong signatures of the sign that we're delving into .

Brian is no exception to this rule , with his sun and several other planets inhabiting the sign of the scales . It's special for me to have Brian on the show , as he is a mentor of mine , as he is with so many others . I have been the benefactor of his lifelong engagement with Greek mythology .

In fact , brian even helped map out the ancient sites of grief for me , opening the imagination to where these old stories were dreamed up in the first place . In this episode , we focus on a mythic moment where the goddess Athena , daughter of the great god Zeus , is asked to deliberate on a jury that is hung 6x6 .

The tension point is between the ancient and the modern of their time . We use this myth to explore a moment in Australian history tomorrow , in fact where the Australian people decide yes or no on whether to add an indigenous voice to parliament . Whatever your stance on this moment , I ask you to hold an open mind to our mythic wanderings .

I also remind you to , as always with this podcast , try to think less literally and more mythologically , especially when we enter the depth of the mythic material .

When we discuss male , female , mother , father , we're talking about timeless archetypal experiences that are alive within us all , the interior world of the soul , rather than roles and positions in society at large . I hope you enjoy the show .

If you do feel free to reach out to Brian or myself Our websites are in the show notes and if you're really enjoying where the show is going , you might like to consider becoming a patron at patreoncom . Slash on the souls terms . Thank you to those generous souls who are already on board the Patreon Express .

And now I bring you my conversation with Brian Clark . Brian , welcome to the show . Thank you , chris . As always , welcome back to the show . We've had two episodes already together , which have been fantastic , and I've just really appreciated those , and so , yes , welcome back . Thank you .

And this time on a different note , I suppose last time we were in the realm of Hermes , and I think we were in that sort of Gemini season or something sometime last year .

Yes , brian just celebrated his birthday last week and there is a stellium of Libra going on , and so I figured that the best and really the only person I would imagine to bring on the show for this particular episode is friend , mentor and inspiration , definitely in the mythic realm , but in so many other ways .

Brian Clark , yes , well , I mean , you've been such an inspiration for me on the show and in my own path and really , since connecting with you , the mythic , the Greek mythology , has been just growing in my own consciousness , so much from our conversations and our bi-weekly meetings and everything you've brought forward .

So it's really an honor to have you come back on .

So you remember the feeling , you remember the kind of image , you remember the connection , because all the Greek myths are all connected . There's every character in the myth is connected . So it's such an interconnected what can we say ? Template of understanding the human understanding , our condition , some interconnected . It's so diverse .

It's filled with monsters and gods and goddesses and humans and all the things that make up our life are there in the myth . So thank you , because every time you talk about that they come alive in the end .

archetypal forces , and the way they interact with each other and what happens out of that interaction , and then the way they even look through the lens it seems of like an intergenerational patterning .

It's quite fascinating to see that component of Greek mythology , how something will happen and down the line it repeats or reverberates or rhymes kind of thing , and you can see these things that don't go away and it's so true to , as you say , the human condition it's just given me such a deeper perspective .

I know when you speak about . If you'll see something in it that I haven't seen before , you know or because we can never possibly know what , because we see it through our own eyes and we see it . It's like an astrology chart . We , someone , will look at an astrology chart and see something that you've never seen before .

It's like it's quite amazing , because that's the magic of myth it's never ending and it happens in the moment . So sometimes you'll say something about a myth that I haven't thought about before . I think well , gee , you know , there's another way to go . So that's the other thing about myth it invites you to see a story from your own perspective .

It doesn't invite you to see a story from someone else's perspective . It invites you to see it from your own .

You know the way the soul speaks through the imagination and through these symbols and you find yourself realizing something just out of the contemplation of a story that you wouldn't have , you wouldn't have discovered otherwise , or you certainly wouldn't have discovered with the just the that more left brain , logical mind trying to nut things out or figure things out or

get to the get to the bottom of things , often get stuck in the surface .

You know , people who deal with dreams of astrology are still closing the dream doors because of this kind of madness often feel of trying to see things always through a kind of rational , linear , continuous , consecutive lens . I mean , that's not the way dream or symbol or myth works .

I mentioned it but didn't elaborate on it so much , because you know a lot more about this mythic material than I do . But Athena's judgment and that effectively begins to talk about the civilizing process and within that is implied the more indigenous mindset or the more indigenous soul .

And it's such a poignant time to be talking about these things because , as we'll get to later in the podcast , we'll talk about what's happening in Australia , where both of us actually

are . Right now I'm speaking to Brian from Perth in Western Australia , which is where I've come on my Australian Odyssey that's happening at the moment , and Brian speaking from Tasmania . So we're on , we're in very unique , different sort of sides of Australia .

We're sort of like hovering around our satellites to the main things that go on in Canberra , sydney , melbourne , where these satellites over the other sides and you know , this podcast will be released on around , I believe , the 13th of October , which is the day before a referendum in Australia .

For those of you who don't know where Australia are trying to decide as a collective whether to give a voice to Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people in Parliament , and that happens to be occurring on a solar eclipse in Libra . So we're exploring all of these themes . I mean unconsciously , these are here anyway and we want to bring that into the conversation .

But , of course , as we do on this show and as Brian and I do , we're going to go through the mythic lens , because everything that can be said from the more logical linear lens is all said and it's all there for people to read . But maybe the mythic material and what is really going on under the surface is something that we can get into today .

It must be a kind of very , very very early primal memory of our struggle out of the claws of the Scorpion towards culture .

So to me , libra has always represented a moment in time , a moment in time in our history and a moment in time in our development , a moment in time of human development and personal development , where we struggle out of a kind of primordial way of thinking about justice into a more considered way of thinking about justice .

And therein lies a great dilemma , because there's a polarization that begins to happen , and polarization , of course , is part of Libra . We have to polarize to understand . Consciousness is about polarization . So Libra is a kind of beginning of a different form of consciousness , I feel .

And look at the glyph , you see the kind of sun rising or sun setting , whatever way you want to look at it , but this is sign . So it's not surprising then to think that many of our gracious Liberans are beautifully crafted . Lovely Liberans Usually do have planets in Scorpio . I don't know if you've found this .

I don't know if you've found this , but they usually have lots of planets in Scorpio , the eight-pounds or Pluto on the ascendant . So the fate of every Libra , I think , is have a Mercury , venus and Scorpio , the kind of sense of Libra . Now I'm talking more in a grander way , of forcing ourselves into a dark vestige of the past .

And how do we make cultural reform around these vestiges of the past ? So if I could just say that I think that this last addition to the zodiac , as we know today , you know , was the scales . It's an inanimate object , isn't it ?

It's put into the pictorial stories in the sky , but it's not an animal , as all the others are humans , and so it's right at that midpoint , midpoint of the zodiac . So we're at a particular time and I guess what to me and that's what you've mentioned , I guess that's where we'll go . Is that at this time , certainly the Hellenistic astrologers ?

Mercury can only be in the sign of the sign after or sign before , where the sun is . So oftentimes you'll see that Mercury in there . Venus can make it a little bit further , but oftentimes you'll see also Venus in there , or maybe Venus having a conjunction with Pluto or one of these iterations where symbolic of that struggle that you're referring to .

And it's interesting to me that this is the last constellation that was , I suppose , declared , or however we want to put that , and it's not the 12th , it's the 7th , so it brings itself in right , in the middle of the story , rather than putting itself at the end or anything like that .

And the symbol is the only inanimate object , almost like in that , a symbol of an ideal towards something more objective , like the object rather than the subjective , of the animal or the human .

If it doesn't happen now , there can be 20 or 30 years to wait , and so that also feels very liberating in the sense of like , if this stops now , then it's not like we can just , oh no , that was the wrong , that's not the right way . Maybe we just do another referendum in a couple of years . It's not like that . It can take 20 , 30 more years .

It may be passed when you and I and everybody listening has already left the planet for all . That we know , right Like it . There's something about that where we have a choice moment and I wonder where we'll go , I wonder what we'll choose in the middle of our story here .

Look at it , it's okay , like if I just choose to have this for dinner rather than after dinner , it's not affecting anyone Maybe my partner , but we usually agree on what we're going to have for dinner . You know so there's choices in life that aren't so great , but there's choices in life .

I think that's what you're saying that if we don't take that that particular road , the road less traveled is going to wane . Now I also think that Liber needs to know that sometimes when you make a choice and it's not quite the right choice , you can't change that .

We are a part of the sorry can change that , but we're talking about a kind of communal choice . We're talking about an archetypal choice that we're all involved in now , and I don't still think Australians , I think all over the world .

We're involved in making a choice for diversity , inclusion , honoring our indigenous self , not just the aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander , but every Australian has an indigenous self . Let's honor those , and I think all over the world , that's what the choice that we have .

And I think you're right if we don't make these choices now , our consciousness will not have developed to the place where we can do something about that . And this is what's so powerful . Get back to the story of Athena . Like she made a choice that changed the whole direction .

You know we're using myth to sort of portray our point , but she made a judgment that has affected you know , wasn't she made . The judgment affected us , but the image of the judgment has been upon us for a very long time .

And you've already told that there's Helen in Paris and they're run off to each other . It doesn't matter that Helen's already married to Menelaus , so that doesn't matter to everyone . It's love and romance . And she rushes off into the dark Mediterranean night , which ends up in Troy , and all the Greeks are going to go together .

Of course , the wind isn't blowing , because Artemis has denied this particular wind , but if Agamemnon will sacrifice his daughter , if a genia to the goddess , then Artemis will let the winds blow and Agamemnon creates a scene where this happens .

So what happens , then is Agamemnon sacrifices his own daughter to get to Troy , but what happens is that Clydamestra , the mother of Iphigenia , has been lied to , she's been cheated , she's been betrayed , she's lost her daughter and she is angry , rageful , and when Agamemnon returns from the war , she murders Agamemnon .

So Orestes her son and Electra , the other daughter , conspire now to murder their mother , who has murdered the father . Now , okay , that's the kind of background .

So what happens then is Orestes , who does this , is then pursued by the Furies , because the Furies were representative of this ancient view of kinship and if you spilled blood , if you murdered somebody of your own clan , your own blood , you were pursued by the Furies , you were driven crazy , crazy .

And so the Furies are creating this kind of really madness in Orestes and he wakes up in Delphi with the Furies pursuing him , and there is Apollo who then is supporting Orestes , says we're going to take this to trial , we're going to take this to trial and we're going to try Orestes and the Furies and see which is the right law .

So the Furies represented matrilineal and traditional , symbiotic with the earth , kind of justice , an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth . Kind of justice Like you killed my mother , we're going to kill you . And Apollo and Orestes represent this new law . Let's reflect on this , let's look at this , let's see what this is .

So they all take the judgment to the area of Pagos , which is just below the Acropolis in Athens , and they have debate back and forth because we now have these new laws where we're having debates , we're trying to judge , we're trying to consider , and Apollo makes this passionate speech for Orestes and he said I can prove that father right .

Or you know , father , killing a father is much more important than killing the mother , because there can be a father without a mother . So Apollo now starts to argue that we can actually fall , we don't need a mother . The mother's just kind of like there to kind of deliver the child . It's a father and the seed of the father that becomes very important .

And in that moment he points to Athena and he said I'll give you a living witness . There's Athena . She's never been fostered in the dark of the womb and because we know don't be that that Athena's mother was devoured by Zeus and Athena was . She was pregnant with Athena and Athena grew up in the belly of Zeus Sorry if this gets complex , but .

And then she arrives from the forehead of Zeus and Apollo was arguing look at Athena , you can have a goddess and bring her to birth , the greatest goddess , and bring her to birth without her being fostered in the darkness of the womb , within the dark . That's the whole judgment here . It's no , we don't need the dark , we don't need that kind of all that .

And so the jury goes and votes and it's six , six . And so they call in Athena , and Athena says that she agrees with Apollo . She says there is no mother anywhere that gave me birth and for marriage , she says well , I'm always on the side of the male . She said with all my heart , I'm on my father's side . Now , this is Eastbless telling the story .

It's a story , but Athena says that she's on the side of the hero . That's what she's saying . If we take male and female and mother and father out of this which I'd like to do it's not about mothers and fathers or males and females . It is really about the overcoming of the dark by voting for the hero . You know , striving , progress , technology .

Let's strive , let's forget the sense of our primordial beginnings and the darkness and the uncertainty and just go for it . And that's what Athena says . Why ? Because she's the goddess of the city and so to me , Chris .

That marks this defining mythological moment in our social history , because Athena has a final vote in the trial and she votes for the superiority of progress in that way of lightness and that way of being . And so I think what happens then is we get .

We get all caught up , don't we , in this idea of right and wrong and polarity , and one is greater than the other .

I think Athena , just if I may say also she represents the civilizing force , like okay , okay , there's this kind of muckiness here going on . The furies are rage when they're angry . And oh , let's not be angry and rageful . Let's try to control IE , in terms of Libra mainly .

Let's push it down , push down any of these vengeful feelings and try to rationalize them . And so she's the civilizing process of rationalizing , and that's what most airsigns do . But Libra is very good at rationalizing how they , how do you feel ? I feel fine , thank you Me .

There's this raging going on underneath , and so the sense of legitimizing rationality in favor of vengeance or retaliation becomes really important . Now , I don't . I would agree that we're not going to act out our vengeance or our retaliation , but we need to honor it , for God's sake . We need to honor it .

We need to see as part of who we are , not as part of the other . So now we're going to put it on to other people , which means that we're going to project it out onto someone else . You're the other you're the one , not me . Wow , and that's what happens .

I think , in that moment of history and that's where Libra becomes so important zodiac we have an opportunity in Libra to sort of say , okay , I've got these two sides and they're both my sides , but how can I actually try to create more conscious awareness of these deep feelings , the claws of the Scorpio , in order to actually hold them in a different way ?

Right , as this judge , because the what Apollo is appealing to is really Athena's idea of herself , that she isn't , that she doesn't have a mother , which is not true , as we know , because Metis is her mother .

Yeah , and Metis is not just any mother , right , she is an Oceaneid , and and , and she's the tutor of Zeus himself , the one who has , who ultimately holds the wisdom that's in Zeus' own head .

It's like you don't even have a mother , like surely you're on the side of the father , so you're in the side of the lights , you're in the side of the sun and the whole lunar consciousness can really go . You know , look at lunar consciousness , it's these furies , it's this , it's this eye for an eye , it's this uncivilized un .

Yeah , and I'm just and as I'm speaking that I'm just hearing some of , like Australia's history , western history , colonialism , you know , like all these things start to click in the background of of the , even Christianity , which is the , which is the light and the love , and the way and and all of these things that I was brought up in and it's like , wow ,

it's , this is pre-Christian stuff and it's all . It feels like it's in there in this story , in the sense , and it's also feels a very . I feel like Athena in this story is presented the way . I see her as very lopsided , very much on the masculine side of the , of the Libran scales .

She was imported from Africa , but we won't go into that black Athena , but we but we can see on her shield , you know that , the kind of images of snakes and and so on , and and you know , and apotraic kind of figures .

But yeah , she became aligned with , with this whole sense of order , you know , not the order of Virgo , like , not that kind of sense of earthy primal order or order of the self , but now an order that's arising by the great sky . And of course Apollo gets dragged into this whole thing as well .

But there are can I just say one more little thing about , about Athena , and this is probably as you're speaking . It reminds me that there is , there are little vignettes , and this is a vignette of Athena , an interesting story about her . So Eric Thornless was a king of Athens and he was a . He's a hybrid . He had a , he had a bottom snake .

You know , he was like , if you go to the , the agora , the Greek agora , the statues of that . What happened was , of course , hephaestus , who was also a part of of Athens , was , was quite kind of desirous of Athena and so desirous and so excited that he kind of wanted to kind of ravage her .

But he was prematurely ejaculated onto the earth and , of course , eric Thornless was born .

There's another , more interesting story where actually the premature ejaculation , his sperm , fell on Athena's thigh and she just wiped it off with a , with a wool piece of wool , threw it then on the ground , disgusted through it in the ground , of course that seed is then creates Eric Thornless .

So Eric Thornless is born out of the womb of Gaia , as we all are . And the interesting thing about , of course , eric Thornless is Thornless means earth , born of the earth , arion . The other part of his name means wool . So his name , eric Thornless , means wool , earth . Kind of long story short .

What I'm trying to say is that what she then does with Athena is that she takes Eric Thornless , this young boy , in in a cradle and takes him into her sanctuary and he grows up and he becomes a king of Athens . Now the first king of the another king of Athens , kekrops , was also auto-Catholic , born of the earth .

So in terms of Athena , we can see your connection to the earth that has now been cut off through Eric Thornless . And one of the great things about the Greeks the Athenians especially about other Greek states did this , but the Athenians saw their first kings which of course were represented the god , as actually catholic .

They called themselves auto-Catholic , born of the earth . They were indigenous to this particular place , and it was this indigeneity that was so important that Athena . She did take care of it in the city , but she cut herself off from the past .

So we do tend to locate it now , our indigeneity , in the cities and in the policies , but we forget that we have to actually have an older version of this , and so isn't it incredible that this is what we're voting for at this particular time in Australia .

Are we going to keep our indigeneity just walked in a kind of civilized little city , or are we going to honor it in the totality of the earth and its past ? And well , I'm voting yes , no doubt about that .

I want the indigeneity , the equality , the past , the catholic nature , the primordialness , the aboriginalness , the indigeneity , the auto-Catholic nature of who we are to be honored .

Will that mean that that we're in , you know , almost like the fear , the unconscious fear that probably we're not aware of ?

because , again , it's a very unique moment to be voting on this in the in the light of this eclipse in Libra , with the south note , a south note eclipse , so like , as you mentioned in the right in the blog that you've got like that , reaching back , reaching back in the past , and and what comes up then is this unconscious prejudices , that that Athena ultimately

has , who , although related to this Katanik , earthbornness . Just as Uranus himself , right , is born of the earth , just as , like you can't . If you go back far enough , you see that any of the figures , all of us , are born Of the earth , with which means we're all literally indigenous , like nobody gets out of their indigeneity in the essence .

But Athena is born from Zeus's head , from his head . It , specifically right from from the mind of Zeus , comes Athena and she's given the vote and she's convinced by Zeus's prized son , apollo , that Of course it's the father's way , it's the father's rule , it's the sun , it's the light that you should be voting in In favor of here . And so what's left behind ?

I think that's what I mean by lopsided in this story , because we get here's the great things about the sun , is the great things about light , is the great things about order and and civility and all of these things . Here's all the darkest parts of the moon or lunar consciousness , or the night world , or the earthly world . Look at what happens there .

We clearly have to move away from that world and I think that's probably at the , at the essence of this yes and no Of the scorpion claws is like the no would say , like let's just keep on keeping on away from anything to do with that lunar consciousness and in and keep moving into the light of apparent order .

But as Libra explores , I think , especially in the combination of Libra and Scorpio , this choice has a shadow component to it well , I guess it's all shadows . Do as all as all choices as all choices .

Whereas Libra is about a quality , it's not about , it's about an axis . You know , it's right on , it's right on the decim and , so to speak , is it's on , it's on the horizontal axis , is not a vertical axis . It's not about parentalization , it's about actually Equality and interconnectedness , but also inclusivity . It's like being siblings , being friends .

It's not like being parental . So I think , when you said that a parent order the order that we are , we need , and especially blue going into a career , as for God's sake , we are looking , there's Pluto , you know , again coming back into a query for a different form of order .

But you know , I don't know how you feel , but I don't hold out for human consciousness a lot . I wish we were a bit more conscious .

It's kind of like Athena's vote as well , because To me , certainly over the last , say , 10 years of my life , and and Kyron as a , as a figure , has really helped with this , I think . I mean , I'm , I'm born in the , in the wake of Kyron's discovery in 1977 , november 1st . You know , I feel like there's a , there's a sense of , of .

I'm born a few years after that and I feel , I feel Kyron's presence around in in the consciousness and Kyron being himself half animal , half , I guess , human , so Him being an Integrated form of this very thing that that , to me , I'm , I can hold a lot of , and it's something beyond hope . I don't know .

Hope is that thing in Pandora's box that gets stuck I . There's a double edge to hope that I always find very intriguing , that can be devised , one of the most devastating things to have , especially when there isn't any but I , you know , but the , but the indigeneity at the heart of all of us . That's something that I don't feel is hope . I feel .

It's just truth , it's just real . You know that I I take a lot of heart in knowing that Uranus is born of Gaia originally , that that Zeus is born of rare originally . You know that he escapes the being swallowed by Kronos . He escapes that but then does receive wisdom , does receive the milk of what's her name and what they are .

Yeah like does receive earthly wisdom , and I feel like you're bringing us to this , this choice moment , that it's so interesting to be speaking of this into the eclipse and come back to another choice that was to in a bit thousand years ago .

So our humanists are divinity and our is it , and let's just say our indigenous self . You know the animal self , so yeah so , and he is , you're right , he's archetypes is part of the human experience . And yes , hope , because we could hope for a certain vote . It may not happen . So you're right , we have to recognize that .

Probably , hope so interesting , as hope , carried by Pandora , represents also the change of ages . She represents the change of age . She's a sentinel for the age before the sense of like she , when we have the symbiotic sense of working with , with the earth . So she's , she's interesting here .

So if we get back to what you said about the eclipse being in the bro , and here we are about to go to the polls and vote yes or no , just like Athena , 24 hours before the eclipse and you know you were talking about the moon , of course , under solar eclipse , which is the moon was in front of the earth , doesn't it ? So she kind of like blocks out .

I wonder if , like , people are going to change their minds in the booth or what's going to happen , you know , and you know that doesn't really matter . Does it really matter ? Because when I was reflecting on this , what , what ?

What came to mind is that the planets are going to still be in the same positions , doing the same transits , doing everything the same , whether we vote one way or the other . So the planets don't ask us to make a choice . They ask us to participate in the moment that we're in .

You know , and we've talked we were talking about this before with the kind of , as we're voting , the mercury is moving towards the opposition of Chiron , which is such an interesting example for the indigenous voices and the voice of indigenousness . But I also hope that , with all the Libra and Mercury , just say Mercury and Libra , nothing else that we've got .

We have reflected enough , we have actually considered enough , we've taken the scales and weighed both and and come to our own unique decision . That's what's the important . I think that there's no cop out anymore . People are saying we don't know enough about it . I don't know enough about it .

That's a cop , because they can look on the internet and figure it all out . They can , they can listen , they can talk to their friends , they can , so so it's like we don't want to give our choice away . So , yeah , what do you think about this ?

We're going to the polls , we're going into the polarization process of Libra and with Mercury in Libra , with that Mercury opposite Chiron and I'll post the blog that you've written because I found that really fascinating and in Australia's constitution chart there's a Mercury Chiron conjunction .

Yeah , absolutely isn't that interesting Now we have the Mercury Chiron opposition , and so then , what I was reflecting on , just as you were speaking like it's a complex thought , so I want to sort of gather it up , because what is Australia's position ? We were on this , we're on this land . I mean , even to talk about it's like Mercury Hermes .

You know the trickery of it all , because are we in this land ? It feels like we're kind of on this land , but but but within this land is the oldest living indigenous culture , and when the Europeans arrived , that culture was still intact .

And so that's that's what we're actually , that that's the indisputable facts of the matter that this most ancient culture that somehow lived on this very complex land of Australia that is 80% desert , has 80% of the boils most dangerous creatures , you know but then surrounded by all this beautiful ocean and everything that's here that this land had been lived in harmony

with , with humans , certainly more harmoniously than we have lived here in the 200 plus years that we've been here , for tens of thousands of years and perhaps reaching back into the very like ancient , ancient history , which is very Chiron .

And that's the discussion that we're trying to have , that we can't like , we can't , we sort of almost like get caught in the Scorpios , scorpions , claws , in that all the shit comes up Into that conversation in a way that we can't really sit in depth of like , well , what are we trying to talk about ?

And I think most of the time it's like , well , can I still have my privileges , can I still have my land , can I still have my house , can I still have my stuff ? Can I still have my money ? Can I still buy off Amazon ? You know , like is all of that still , which is ironic as a name , isn't it ? I mean I had .

I have been thinking about my interview I did in a two part with Zoe try on very early in the podcast to , who was born in the aristocracy of England and ended up in the Amazon , like embedded in the Amazon . It's one of my favorite interviews .

It didn't get too many listens , but I would advise people to go back and listen to that episode because she basically gets to this point in her life where she literally throws her hands up to the sky and says use me for something , and the next day an opportunity comes where she can go to the Amazon on this trip and go way out outside of anything civilized

as we would understand it . You know , a multiple-day trip over boats and land and all of these kinds of things , and arrive in a completely different culture where everybody gets up at four in the morning and takes this particular medicine around the fire and discusses their dreams .

And the dreams inform what you're going to do that day , so where the good hunting is and where the fruits will be found and all these kinds of things is revealed through the dreaming , and then everybody goes out and they come together to discuss that and then they go out into the jungle to do whatever the dreams told them to do and come back .

Doesn't that appeal to ?

You know what I mean .

So I found it interesting to come back to that idea of the indigenous part of ourself that I'm voting for is that part of ourself that recognizes that we live in a participatory , symbiotic world , where we are symbiotic with nature , with the animals , with all that is around us , and we try as best as we can not to destroy that for the whatever we want to

call it the human greed or so . Yes , I would want to live like that . I hope I try my best . I don't think I could , I think I'd miss , I don't think I'd like sleeping on the jungle every night , but there's a kind of a sense . Yes , that's what we're voting for . You're absolutely right .

We're coming back to the vote for the sense of our own psychological , emotional , aboriginal self .

But she's made a call on the lunar consciousness that the furies represent in that moment , because it's interesting . You mentioned that after the vote . The furies transform . I mentioned that briefly . They're taken by Athena .

So if you look at the Acropolis , you have the area of Pegas , which is all the big rocks , all the rocks there , and just underneath that actually on the Panathenaic way as you come up to the Acropolis , underneath that there's a little cave where they said that Athena took the three furies down and they were called the Humanities , which means the kindly ladies ,

but it's euphemistic , it's a euphemism . That's what they're looking for . It's a euphemism for the furies we now follow , the kindly ladies . You're so different . You don't call bloody rage or age , you call it just just having a bad day . We're not going to now call a lot of vengeance and jealousy these human feelings .

We're not going to call them by their names . You're going to call them just having a bad day or just didn't take my pills today . So there's a sense where we get to that point where Athena kind of civilizes the process , covers it over , but we can't forget that she's got these older roots . They may be still quite unconscious , but we're going to feel them .

The under an eclipse . I think that , and , as you say , near the South , you know , they think that we get more of an opportunity to feel things under an eclipse . The rational mind isn't as strong , I mean , but some people are very strong Under an eclipse . I think we have an opportunity for it to be a little bit more subtle or fluid .

But yeah , this euphemisms and that element of Libra and consciousness , maybe to put the spin on something , to make it . I was even noticing , because I was out in Yuki , in the countryside of Queensland , for a few nights with some friends , and there particularly one couple , their daughter , who's about six .

She loves stories , and so she was asking for some stories and I found myself telling a few story , a few fairy tales . She was asked for , you know , tell me a story , and I'd say , well , who do you want in it ? And she'd say I want a witch in it . And so then I'd kind of track my mind back to which fairy tales I can bring forward .

And then she asked for Snow White and she wanted Sleeping Beauty . So I told the Grimm versions of those , and even in the telling of the Grimm versions which is , you know , as we know , the Grimm brothers were collectors of stories , not writers of stories . I often feel , quite even recently , people saying this was written by the Grimm brothers .

Oh God , no , it wasn't . It wasn't written , it was collected off the countryside by the Grimm brothers . And so this is old wives tales . Actually , the writers of this there aren't any , and it's an oral tradition . It's part of a deep , long oral tradition and it's been collected by these men , the brothers . But the stories have been shared .

And but anyway , in the telling of this , I found myself having to having to maybe , maybe not , but editing , and and that was interesting to see , like you know , I had to judge between this , the six year old , and the and the three or four year old boy , like what , what Grimm details can I bring in , and what do I have to admit and what do I have to

change and what do I have to , you know ? So it's not just that Disney does that or that civilization does that . It's like I do , that we all , we all do , that we alter these stories innocently enough .

It sounds like you did it with feeling and did it with heart . You see , if you do it with feeling and heart , that's very different than doing it with your head .

You know if you did it because oh well , you know , but if you , if you balance it to see what the child can take and what's the most important thing , and you balance it with feeling and kindness and care , like a good canceran would , then that's different . I think that's different . Yeah .

But , you know those are the defining moments and I think that liberates a little bit like that defining moment . But we can get grabbed in that moment by believing , as you so well said , before Zeus and Apollo and all the new guys that are coming up to say you know , the sky , looked at the sky , looked at the sun .

But when we do , there are no stars and that's a big loss , as you say , yeah , we miss the whole night world .

Because you know , obviously , that one follows the other , that she's also not a mother , so that in the judgment of Paris , right her relationship , if we just look at her as Athena and Hera and Aphrodite next to her , hera presiding over marriage's , Aphrodite desire and love and lust and sensuality and everything . And then Athena , who's the one making the judgment ?

Now I wonder if they put it to Hera , or they put it to Aphrodite , where , where things might have gone , but they did . And then Athena , obviously that is Athens , and Athena being the patron goddess of Athens , curious .

But like he didn't , he didn't choose Athena because he didn't have any . He didn't have any kind of urge to be heroic , right ?

And the hero is obviously like Heracles and his 12 labors , is is doing everything that he can to civilize in his own way , in the heroic way of man over man , over nature , and I think that's really , you know , it's like yes or no .

If we , if we broaden our yes or no to sort of find our way into the last chapter of our conversation , if we broaden our yes and no , if it's hero versus , if it's man versus nature , is is ultimately the yes or no right , that's a terrible yes or no to have , because we can't be , we can't be here without nature , and so I think that's like the leads

into the complexity of what , of what we're actually trying to wrestle with . You know , do we want to keep like the polis keeps pushing nature further and further out and then replacing it with the metaverse ? You know what I mean ? That's like this is where I believe it sort of becomes .

You know , how do we grapple with the decisions that we're sort of trying to collectively make here ?

It's the aquinox , for God's sake , whether it's , whether it's the optimal or the spring aquinox , it's equal day , equal night . So the movement in Libra is always trying to equalize . It's trying to make both equal , a sense of polarity . So it's not an and or , which is oftentimes more of the parental axis , it is try to try to equal , equal things out .

So I think there is a way of thinking to in Libra which is about having both , holding both , and that's where we get ambivalence and all those kinds of other things happening . But any true skills are going to just move up and down , aren't they ?

All right , how do we , how do we wrap up here , brian , a conversation like this ? Oh ?

Time of judgment Because I guess I mentioned before , with Pluto coming into Aquarius is I guess we're all grappling in some way with , with fees kind of bigger choices , and I've been thinking a lot about this kind of you know , with all the new movement of progress and how our world is changing so fast , how we're leaving behind even even more the path , the

indigenous and primal past .

So yeah , so thanks for the opportunity to speak about this and we'll see what happens on the 14th of October .

Thank you and thanks again for coming on the show for your third appearance on the Souls terms and you know it's just really appreciated . I just I love these conversations , that we have love that we can have them and share them .