Bjorn welcome to the podcast man it's been a while uh trying to trying to get you on here, yeah thanks jeff thanks for having me i'm uh happy to to finally connect yeah it's i've been reading your stuff for for so long you've been you you got books and you got articles written for outdoor life and all over the place like how'd you get started writing oh gosh that is a long long story i guess you know from a pretty early age i wanted to be a writer and and i i'm sure
you probably can relate to this you know i tried really hard and sent out all sorts of queries to different editors and book ideas and just constant rejections and then my dad one day was like man you should write hunting fishing articles hunting fishing stories and that was kind of like it was before i think hunting and fishing was cool and and hunting and you know especially hunting for me and fishing you know it's commercial fishing at those days too and it was just like,
it was not anything i ever thought about writing about it was always you know just something you kind of you do and also felt kind of private about it i guess in a way too but i was tired of.
Not getting any of my you know magazine article ideas accepted so i i contacted the editor at the time at hunt alaska magazines 2009 or 10 or something like that and and they wanted a article about a sick of blacktail hunt on almerty island and you know i wrote that and then yeah i just kind of started having success as far as you know having articles accepted and all that stuff and yeah it was interesting because there was it used to just be you'd have like gray's
field and stream outdoor life those were all magazines and very very limited space very competitive i remember getting a rejection letter because you like send the the query like as a printed out file and you'd send that and i got a letter back rejecting me i was like man that's this thing i got rejected but i still have that letter and now it's it's not even close to that as far as like how to even like contact people but also since then like you said things have gotten very
popular and the traditional gatekeepers are down and so if you want to participate in the space so many people started coming up to alaska and writing articles and blogs and making little videos and so alaska and that fishing and hunting it was just. Something that we've always done but now there's a huge market for it and a huge thirst for copy from actual residents yeah no so i mean that's that is pretty cool i mean if you want to if you want to write or.
You have a platform you know or if you want to make movies like you said you know there's you know it's kind of one of the cool things i guess positive things about youtube and the social media is is that you can have a platform and you can get your message out there you get your story out there which you know is kind of cool in a way so so did i read that you're a wildlife film guide in addition to right yeah yeah i probably make the
the my line share my my my income doing you know guiding basically film crews usually after big hairy stuff with with claws and teeth but yeah for you know variety of productions like netflix and bbc and that geo and other. Streaming services. And yeah, so that's, I spend, you know, anywhere from a month to four months a year, usually guiding.
That's got to be a lot of fun. What are some of the, like your spiel when people come up here, there's got to be some people who are incredibly versed in outdoor conduct and ethics and whatnot.
But you probably have had some people who really don't know what they're doing. like how do you how do you handle the uh spectrum i guess from novice to expert yeah so even you know within the you know like whatever if you want to call it the planet earth spectrum of wildlife camera operators it's surprising how many don't have like kind of on the ground experience with.
You know with with bears specifically and that's kind of my bread and butter because you know the rest of brown bears specifically and the rest of kind of the whole wildlife filming world you know everything in africa is filmed from the safety of a vehicle you know pole bears are almost always film from a ship and then you get on brown bears you know it you are you're on the ground filming most of the time so you you're up close and personal and if you're
filming outside of catmine national park you know the bears behave usually like how you and i and everyone else in alaska know bears to behave like you know it takes a lot of kind of planning and caution, to do it safely you know not even to mention to do it in a way that's somewhat you know respecting the animal to not chasing the animal away messing them up too much from their daily.
Schedules or whatever you want to call it so yeah going back to your question i've had i have gotten and you know one of the things that you kind of have to be prepared for is you kind of have to be ready to it's usually the producers it's not the camera operators but it's the the producers who will be really pushy though, you know, they, all these, you know almost all the time for these bigger productions they come with a storyboard
like they already know what they want the story they want to tell which is silly yeah because in like and then you'll be out there and this incredible other story unfolds, and you'll even like you don't be on the sat phone and be like hey this stuff is happening and you know the 99 of the time they're like we don't care we already have you know we wrote in all this stuff you know basically all these productions originate in bristol uk so they
come on their storyboard and your job is just to try to film the sequence the scenes to for them to tell you know david adenborough to tell his story of make-believe story of what's happening you know so that's a secret i'm fine telling everyone because i'm kind of.
So you do get these producers especially ones who have not worked in wildlife come and just be super pushy and with with brown bears you can't be pushy and even you know in mountain environments different safety scenarios you can't be pushy so you know one of my biggest challenges i would say with these productions is doing it safely in a way that doesn't i don't get swept away in the producer wanting the shot so bad that we're getting in the situations you shouldn't and it's just there's always
you know just the variables you never think about the camera you know the remote camera not working or whatever it's always like you know scenarios that you can think of you know you try to think of every scenario before you go out there but then you're presented with you know a late fish run and you can't you have a crew that's difficult to move to another watershed that has fish and you know just stuff like that so it's always it's one of those jobs that's great but
at the same time it's so competitive enough you don't want to say no but then you have to be like, you have to tell people that you got to shut stuff down sometimes or just do things different. Yeah. I can imagine that in order to get funding for some of these projects, you would have to kind of outline what the money is going to be going to. So from that element, I can understand the need to like match the narrative or the storyboard.
But like you said, there's, you're dealing with wild animals and I've never been to the Brooks river, but the, those Brooks falls, it seems as predictable as you can get for, for brown bears.
But maybe what would be the have you been to brooks falls and seen those i would you know it's somewhat habitual i never you know i've fished out of bristol you know commercial fished out of bristol bay i've hunted moose and caribou out there but i have never and i've you know every year i usually have like a late offer to go carry a camera for some camera operator in cat my which brooks falls is like it's part of cat my and i've actually never been in cat my never been in brooks falls and
it's one of those things where it's like you know 300 people at the peak of peak season at brooks falls goes to those falls every day it's like a party out there and i think it's great and lots of respects for a lot of folks and it's neat and everything but i don't really actually have any desire to ever go there i'm not trying to be snotty about it it's like i don't i just don't want to really go there yeah i think growing up in southeast you get the the reality of of things
and seeing that the unpredictability to become something you become somewhat careful or like aware of and knowing that some days you know you might see some bears some days maybe not, that's got to be something that's just.
Like too overwhelming for someone from the lower 48 maybe to consider or just contend with they want to be able to go there and it's wild but within like the edge uh the sharpness of the edge has been taken off enough to where you can feel that it's wild and you're clearly not in a zoo but it's as predictable as possible yeah i mean i think it really has its place i don't want to poop poopoo on it but it's you know i think a lot of folks want
nature want to feel like nature is safe so it's kind of a mixed bag for me when i think of a place like brooks falls or even cat my where you know you can go up and you can touch bears like you know they're that they're that used to people so in one one way it's really neat to be able to have this experience and appreciate this, animal and this fantastic ecosystem but then on another level it's you know are we just kind of continuing the that disney narrative that's you know so
attractive but at the same time terrible that were spoon fed, you know, from childhood on that nature's safe and all that stuff. So do you get any questions or, or any, anything that has to do with Timothy Treadwell? Oh man. I, you know, I went down that rabbit hole. I haven't for years thought about him too much, but I, you know, I imagine you probably read Nick Jan's book, Grizzly Maze.
Yeah. I teach it in my adventure survival lit class. And there's always kids in the class who were just thinking like, how is this person allowed to be in schools in Southern California? Because again, you're perpetuating that narrative and, you know, right in the Disney area, but you're getting this education that's completely wrong. And it would be nice if it was just a simple matter of, Hey, you respect me and I'll respect you, but that's not how the natural word world works.
Yeah. The Timothy Treadwell thing. I mean, that was such a, you know, that's such a compelling story on so many levels. Just you know so you know simply along the lines of what you're saying you are the portrayal nature but also just this very kind of conniving charismatic individual and like my big question for nick on that on that book process was you know i approached him on nick jans author of the book, was like what was it like to spend a year.
Writing, researching, living your life with Timothy Treadwell, like trying to get into Timothy Treadwell's head. Because I know for me, if I, you know, I kind of wrote a chapter that was in part about him, the bear book I wrote. And it was weird for me. It was funny, you know, to spend a year researching and writing. You know, so I don't, I don't know. He's, you know, in a certain level, the fastest-seeming director. But also, I mean, I think there's pretty clear
lessons to that story. Yeah. There's the human element of the fact that he, like the only thing that really helped him or allowed him to quit his drinking and his, you know, he was that at war of himself. I think those are Nick Jantz's words that he was that at war of himself. He had to create this different persona. So you find purpose, even though it's a misguided con artist type purpose and that I am the savior
of the bears. And at one level, yeah, it's totally tragic that a human lost his life and then his girlfriend too into that. But yeah, it's, it's still, even though there's those cautionary type tales, it seems like people still have a naive idea about what things are like, but when people come up here and are just excited to be here and just like drink it all in and just absorb it, that's got to make your job just a lot of fun and very rewarding.
Shoot i got to go to eastern greenland and do you know completely non-related but i was there for polar bear shoot and you know so it's amazing you get to go on these kind of like once in a lifetime.
Opportunities because when are you going to sit you know in mid-june to mid-july up on the same mountain on chichikov and the same three square miles and stock brown bears so for me it's like and in part it's like hunting too it's like i get to go hunting for a month without shooting anything and you know it's like.
There's that part of it that i just love and then you know some of like the salmon stream work with browners that that gets tense that's not always my favorite no but you know by the end of every one of those trips you're just like man so nice to to pull out you know when you're yeah so it's like one of those things it's like stuff you never do on your own like i'm never gonna go out on my own and be like unless i'm getting paid money i'm not gonna go spend a bunch of time in.
Thick woods on salmon streams you know yeah too too close to bears so it's kind of yeah it's one of those deals where it's i don't know you get to go in the world you normally wouldn't go into so yeah growing up on prince of wales having black. Bears around you get really used to them on the rivers and it was.
You know just they just really kept their distance so the brown you know not growing up around brown bears and having nearly as much experience around brown bears uh it's it's different different feeling when when i get around them even if they're not even very close just kind of in the vicinity or when you're in brown bear territory it's a whole different feel but it's cool to go to those places and just experience more of what alaska has yeah yeah i mean i'm a big fan of
all wildlife and you know there's there's bear killers and bear perverts and i'm neither one of them i don't i don't want to hug anything and i don't need to go prove my my existence you know by trying to get the biggest one in the world or anything like that but yeah they're complicated interesting incredibly intelligent animals and glad they're here but i'm also you know glad to give them as much space as i can yeah so you spent some time around the
state what are some of your other i'm assuming southeast is your favorite or close to the favorite otherwise you wouldn't still still live here but uh where is another place in alaska that you're really excited about and just kind of can't get enough of yeah i mean there's so much of alaska in the north that's just amazing and you know such so many great outdoor opportunities but uh you know my two favorite places
on earth are alamertee island which i live right next to and the brooks range and so Brooks Range is. Definitely one of those most you know just incredible place every trip I do there's something amazing happens whether it's you know. Being surrounded by thousands of caribou or whatever, you know, wolves chasing stuff through camp or Wolverines. It's just kind of one of those places that makes you feel like you are in another world and, you know, anything's possible.
So, yeah, I've only been up there once did the haul road hunt archery for caribou a couple of years ago and drive north from Fairbanks, you know, intellectually, there's a lot of space North from Fairbanks, but when you're driving it, it just goes on and on and on. And then you just pull off to the side of the road to take a leak or whatever. And then there's a wolf and you think, Whoa, this is crazy.
And then you just keep driving and keep driving. And then you get to the Brooks and as you're going through, it's just, it's so rugged and so like more doorish and beautiful.
And then dropping down to the North slope it's just unbelievable and it's kind of weird the experience because that whole experience is possible because of the pipeline road that was built to help build the pipeline it's kind of a conflicting thing that the only reason i can do this is because of oil extraction but pretty pure i i could definitely go there multiple times yeah i know it's an amazing place and that is a weird kind of paradox or contradiction or
whatever you want to call it but yeah how'd the caribou hunt go for you we my buddy and i were prepared to walk past the five mile buffer so he brought a rifle we're going to split the rifle both had our bows and we it was right at the beginning of the season and it'd been it had snowed the week before so everything was just soaked but all the.
Mosquitoes were dead so the the herd had not really congealed and started to migrate yet so they're just kind of like random there were more out-of-state hunters we saw up there than bulls so we walked the five miles but we were too far north and so there was like no texture we were just seeing nothing as soon as we got to the five mile boundary we thought we'd be at this lip and there'd be like this kind of a, you could look down into a bowl or a river, but there was just nothing.
And so we just angry hiked back to the road and did some road hunting, got into more of that texture foothill type area. And then we both, both shot two bulls or both shot a bull. So that was super great. By that point, the mosquitoes had returned because it had warmed up enough and it was just miserable. But yeah, it's, it's, it's unbelievable. And it's, everybody says the same thing it's unbelievable it's wild it's expansive but there's just really not words.
You just have to go there and you have to see it yeah no it's definitely it's amazing it definitely it took me by surprise you know i was i was kind of at my peak of thinking you know loving big mountains climbing big mountains and i just kind of actually had two weeks of school before two weeks before my before school at the university of fairbanks started for me and borrowed a friend's truck i just didn't have anything else to do so i just went up to the books range thinking
that oh these are little mountains and it wasn't going to be nearly as wild as like the last range or you know stuff elsewhere that i explored and you know i spent two weeks hiking around the central, brooks range kind of there's a mountain called mountain dunerak up there that's a big one in the central part of the brooks and tried to climb that but man by the time i was done with that trip I was completely, I was a changed, a changed young man. Yeah.
I had a buddy who, who dropped in, he'd scouted a spot where he wanted to drop in with his alpaca raft and then it kind of loops around and meets back up with the highway. And he said it was absolutely horrible. It was, and he's, he's the type of person who to not be intimidated by certain things, but yeah, he said it was absolutely beyond and he would never do it again. I thought, wow, that is saying a lot. Was he from Southeast Alaska? Yeah. He lives in Anchorage now.
So he's done some white water rafting in that area. Yeah. But...
Yeah i found the travel there exceptionally easy compared to you know what i was used to elsewhere in the state you know you there is you know if it's high water you know if it's raining the rivers and creeks there's just so much water up there but yeah i've done quite a few trips up there i've never i mean i've had some high water trips that were spooky but overall i would definitely i mean i i love and even the tusks some people are just like i can't deal with it And I was just like,
I'm, I'm, I'm totally happy to scoot along at two miles per hour with a heavy pack on Tessex. Yeah. Yeah. I think he, he hiked in and then it was, it was like in the mountain part. And I was thinking it was, it was, the grade was pretty steep and it was pretty bouldering. There may have been like low water made it that much more difficult or something. I think if you hit some of those areas when the water is nice, then you can kind of just flow.
I have some friends that did the Charlie river and they said they hit the water pretty nice.
And so they weren't portaging a whole lot and it was they got to the yukon and it was just smooth sailing i'd definitely like to do the charlie yeah i tried to hike into it after a caribou hunt once and got turned around in the blizzard about halfway that was by myself i was all right i made some mistakes on that trip like not bringing garbage bags to help pack out caribou so i just completely you know i was just covered in blood covered in blood and i was like well i'm
go after the hunts we i would go by myself to the yukon charlie and i uh, you know the the bears up there are not like abc island bears too they're you know more they got more they're willing to wager against you than our bears around here and just smelling like a dead bloody caribou and started snowing really hard so i turned around before i got when was this.
Gosh like how old were you like was this in the uh young young and brash no no i was kind of that this was kind of right before i had kids so i was probably early 30s okay i did this 30 31 32 oh yeah so so you fully knew better but you did it anyway well i mean the only thing that i would do it was kind of a last minute trip i was supposed to go to the brooks range and actually do a trip, after helping my brother with and his daughter with a caribou hunt but it was the weather was so poor
in the brooks range that at the last minute i uh it was you know flooding and raining and snowing the last minute i changed to the yukon charlie and the only thing that one you should have a partner obviously but i've done quite a bit without partners but the mistake i made was just not having a second backpack and a second change of clothes covered in black.
Yeah there you go so speaking of brooks range and interior alaska you've been doing some work you're a member of the hunters and anglers for the brooks range can you tell me a little bit about that organization or that venture yeah so hunters and anglers for the brooks range is a coalition of kind of conservation groups hunting conservation groups and some brands so you got so i technically work for the theodore roosevelt conservation partnership not technically i do on a part-time basis
but you also have meat eater in there and a bunch of other kind of brands who care about the future of the brooks range and we're working on uh the campaign to try to prevent the proposed ambler road being built across the southern flanks of the brooks range and that is a It's a 211-mile industrial corridor that would open up at least four very large open pit mines. But it would just alter, basically. In my opinion, I've been around a bit while this landscape left in North America.
And one of the most amazing hunting, fishing, and outdoor recreation destinations, that you could dream of going, not to mention feeding 66 different villages. Rural villages. So, yeah, I've always been very into conservation, just growing up here and just always appreciating the ability to. To hunt and fish and get her food from the woods and sea. And I was pretty excited when GRCP approached me and asked me to help out with the campaign.
It seems that there's a similarity with the Dalton Highway in that it is meant for extraction. So it was for the extraction of oil resource development. And because it became public, it enabled people to visit more of Alaska, hunt more of Alaska, see more of Alaska, and kind of do that maximum benefit thing. So people might look at this road as just another opportunity for access.
But it seems the key difference is that when you go up and through the Brooks Range, that's different than running along the southern edge of it for 211 miles. Because there's a substantial amount of river crossings and more river crossings. And so rather than running kind of perpendicular to the range by running parallel to it, you're going to do a lot more damage habitat. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, so as of now too, it's a kind of a mess of a deal too.
So as of now, this is supposed to never be open to the public. But as we all know, the Dalton Highway was supposed to never be open to the public too.
And that north to south you're not you know versus east to west the dalton goes north to south there's like 2900 to over somewhere between 2900 and low 3000 stream and river crossings that this, proposed ambler road would need to go across and that's just you know a lot of times when people think of this they're like oh gosh what really would a road do and there's the road and then there's all the spur roads that are going to come off of it and we know you know that's four,
we know of four mines big mining you know interests that this would go to.
But then you know there's going to be spur roads going off every which way of this of this of the ambler road and you know if i was a developer if i was a state there's no way that i would be like okay great 211 miles let's not build the rest you know the road the rest of the way all the way out to you know wherever kotzebue sound or you know chuck gc and so you're fragmenting habitat a lot more you're you're going to have a lot more contaminations with the water i mean the brooks range
is such a wet place it's one of the big shockers that you know if anything i'd tell someone who's about to go on a trip to the brooks it's going to be like man your foot maintenance is going to be the most important thing because you're going to have to figure out how not to get your feet wet all the time. And, you know, it's also very fragile. And then, you know, everyone's always talking about the Western Arctic herd. And, you know, it's gone down so much recently. Yeah.
And i think you know people are like oh how much would it really affect the caribou and then you know i i encourage them to go look at the red dog road study and how that was such a shocker how much that road is affecting you know that 60 mile road the red dog mine it might not be 60 miles it's somewhere around there how much it's affecting you know that that fall migration down when they collared however many cows and just seeing what how
they react to that road so everyone was shocked by that the biologists were shocked by it you know i can't remember i'm not going to quote i'm not going to say exactly how long it postponed migration but it was significant you know we're talking many weeks and so it ends up really negatively affecting.
Specifically rural hunters out there because in the past you know they might have a two months to hunt caribou and now they might not you know i think the caribou just showed up on a lot of those villages like last week i don't know you know and they're just kind of bolting through so.
It's one of those things where it's not just like you know the tree huggers crying like this is bob marshall's dream potentially being ending but it's like it's one of the wildest, places you might ever get to go to fish and hunt and to sack you know i always say that conservation has to work for people to make it worthwhile and the same in my opinion is is development and industry and when you look at the amount of money we pulled off you know we pulled out of prudhoe bay versus the
amount of money that alaska really stands to make from this ambler road it's not even comparable right like these are these are foreign foreign company mining companies going in to take these mineral resources and they're you know they're not they're going to be shipped to eastern asia to refine to be refined and then from there it's like well what are they where are they going, And so one of the real kind of big issues that we got going on right now with
the Ambler Road is the amendment that's been added to the National Defense Authorization Act, which is like, you know, we have to, the NDAA, we have to pass that to fund our military. And this amendment's been added to push the Ambler Road through, basically citing that we need this road for national security.
And as you know, there's quote-unquote, critical minerals out uh you know that we could get out of the mines and which the only one actually right now is zinc and we can get them from mines in the u.s or allied countries you know say not just like the congo for instance where there's no humans yeah right stuff going on and that's just you know so it's like that argument being made is like we got to do this for national security and the great irony on that one is like well if that's
the case you know it's it's foreign mining corporations that are going to one make the money the you know the lion's share of the money then two we're shipping them the this ore to be refined in eastern asia we don't we know we don't know where these minerals are even going to be sold afterwards like there's a very good chance they're going to be sold you know i could get in trouble for saying this but china so you know the irony is like this actually might threaten our
national security if you know china has you know if that's your argument and these minerals are going to china which is you know a potential very likely potential or you know some other country that we're not allies with so this ndaa you know the amendment has no place with our military funding and that's kind of what we're trying to raise awareness of right now is that like this amendment needs to be taken off. It does not apply.
To try to get the ambler road pushed through this is not you know an honest way not the right way, yeah i've i've seen right about that and also it seems like bristol bay is such an obvious no-go and yet it still just kind of hangs around but people seem to be i don't know if i've ever really talked to an alaskan who says yes i'm for it but i have talked to a couple people or heard people We'll talk about just from the access standpoint, opening up the road to Ambler.
But yeah, it's just when you're dealing with mines, it's just a different animal altogether. If you look at like an Onyx map of Prudhoe Bay and you can see the patchwork of roads that are around, but it's not anything close to an open pit mine that, as you said.
In a such a water rich area there's just no way you're going to be able to contain the contaminants and it's at the headwaters of so many of these rivers the damage is going to be catastrophic there's and that's that's even best case scenario even if there's not a a major spill like it will by definition ruin the headwaters for a lot of these rivers yeah i think the important thing to remember with the with the dalton highway versus the ambler road because you know it's it is
that that paradox by having that road you and i both had our first trips to the brooks range and pretty much every trip i've done since from you know from the brooks range it's very occasionally i'll fly into a village but other ways you know i've driven the dalton highway and i've got off the road i just started walking or started hunting but the way i see it with this you know right now the amla road is supposed to never be open to the
public the the sentiment of the villages out there is as such that i don't foresee it ever being open to the public so that you know that aspect of the argument for folks who are not from there you know this is a bizarre public land.
That aspect of the argument i don't think is even applicable so if you're if you're down south and you're like gosh man wouldn't be cool to to drive there someday and and have that be able to do that because how am i going to afford a bush flight in it it doesn't work because i don't think it will ever you know there's so many villages out there where on the dalton highway there's not there's not the same amount of villages you know there wasn't that same push and that
was when you know dalton was going on and all the all that this huge land and sovereignty right arguments you know angst go and then they'll go we're all happening so it's i mean i really don't see that road ever being open to the public so being involved in in some of the political.
Habitat conservation type issues is it is you're feeling generally optimistic going forward or does it seem like there are so many different circumstances or so many different elements that are working against the future of fishing and hunting in alaska that it's it's a drain on you uh you know my kids sound like a bunch of sounds like my my sixth hour english class so yeah i'm yeah just screaming and crying in the background uh you know at times i think it can be it can feel i could drain but
i do feel like we've made a lot of progress specifically you know like the one thing that i could say that i've noticed around our neck of the woods that gives me hope for like the future of of southeast alaska i know i'm kind of switching here is that you know people are recognizing more how important habitat is and how that means more deer more salmon and i mean just hunters and anglers and i so i i'd say i'm cautiously optimistic in certain respects but at the same time you know it's
just there's there's some big powers out there and we're just we're just you know. The little guys who want to be able to go hunting and fishing and pee off our back porch and not to yell that for it so yeah it goes back to that conservation Versus preservation ideal of doing things in the Alaska state constitution that says that the lands are for the, or resources should be managed for the maximum benefit.
But then so many lower 48 people who look at what, and maybe their hearts are in the right place. They look at what happened in these different states and they want to help preserve Alaska. Yeah. It's just not, it's not the same. And if you manage Alaska, like you would manage a lower 48 state, it just doesn't make any sense. And it would be, it would be really nice if that wouldn't happen, but yeah, it's kind of, it's kind of tough going forward.
I don't know what it looks like in 15, 20 years. Hopefully it looks fine. Hopefully the sheep recover and the caribou recover and, you know, just kind of back to your normal ebb and flow, but we'll see.
Where can people find your work get involved with the hunters and anglers for the brooks range is it a sign up type thing where can people buy your book all that stuff yeah so i mean if you want to visit hunters and anglers for the brooks range there's a there's a petition on there right now regarding the ndaa which we talked about earlier as far as that the amendment to push the ambler road forth is it does it's not you know it's not applicable so it'd be great if people sign that share
that read some of the got some of the facts some of the information and get involved there, and yeah that would be great and i i don't have a website at all and if anyone you know wants to read my books you google my name you'd find them yeah i mean it's whatever it's all good. Awesome well it was nice nice chatting with you man great great to finally talk about some of these things and we'll we'll be in touch all right thanks chef have a good one.