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It was remarkable to be in that room and see someone reading someone else's mind over and over and over again.
When you see it, you can't unsee it.
One of the best remote viewers was the Burbank Police Chief. Cia was in his office and saw that he had like marked on the map where submarines were.
Well, that's alarming. How did you listen to the telepathy tapes?
Non speaking children on the autism spectrum are able to read the minds of people.
It is mind blowing. Have you heard the Telepathy Tapes? I hope that you go listen to these tapes.
You want to watch a mind blowing documentary.
You need to see this. Hi is the host of a new podcast series called The Telepathy Tapes.
Please welcome, Kai Dickens.
How would you describe or explain what telepathy actually means?
Telepathy historically is reading someone's mind. You know exactly what they're thinking. That's what I thought this was at first. Parents started saying right away, this isn't just your telepathy. We think we might be sharing a consciousness or no languages that they've never learned. Well, how is that possible? Or tell the future and accurately predict something that's going to happen. The amount of messages parents were telling me that they were receiving from the other side through their
child was wild. I think we are working with consciousness coming in from somewhere else.
What have you found in your research looking at animal intelepathy?
That is a beautiful element to this. There are mental fields around certain animals.
As you can ask you about the connection between dreams and telepathy. Has there been any connection there? The Number one Health and Well Inness podcast Jay sheety Ja shetty Ly. Hey, everyone, Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you've come to become happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone that I'm really excited to talk about. These are the themes, the ideas that I really want On Purpose community to
get exposed to. Their conversations that I believe we should be having, need to be having as humanity, and they push us forward. They challenge us, they maybe make us feel uncomfortable, but they propel our thinking forward. And today's guest is none other than Kai Dickens, an award winning, acclaimed filmmaker and podcast host known for diving into complex social issues spark change. Kai is the host of The Telepathy Tapes, which is a new podcast going absolutely viral.
If you don't know about it, I don't know where you've been. Kai digs into the incredible abilities of non speaking individuals with autism, uncovering mind blowing stories of telepathy beyond different dimensions. The series invites viewers to challenge their ways and rethink what communication really means and what the human mind is truly capable of. Please welcome to On Purpose, Kai Dickens. Kai. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, it's so nice to meet you. And I want to dive straight in. And the question I want to ask Kai before we get into it is who were you before you dove into the Telepathy tapes, before you dove into this work. Tell me a bit about who you were, what you believed, what you valued, and what your system of thinking was.
I was a social justice filmmaker, so I was working on documentaries that were really diving into complex socialis issues right to drive change, so whether that was healthcare access or paid family leave, affordability and access, just things like this that were not in the spiritual realm at all. And I've always been very curious. I've always been a seeker. I've always had a deeply spiritual side of myself that was a bit gun shy around organized religion because I've
also seen the pain that's caused. But I was just plowing forward with doc films that I was trying to make a difference around and the Celepathy tapes. Entering that world and being immersed in the lives of non speakers for the past three and a half years has completely altered me. Every fiber of me, and it's made me see the world entirely differently.
Can you tell us how you first discovered it, because, like you said, your work was somewhat different to what this is now, and I want to know how it first came across your table.
So as a documentary filmmaker, what often happens is before you even get funding for a project, you might be working and researching and immersed in this world for two I mean for months, if not years, right, and so you have to really love what you're looking at and
right in between. After my last film, I had just moved to California, was trying to figure out what I was going to do next, and then I lost to very good friends in the prime of their lives, like the type of people that you know they lost, they left kids behind, just unbelievable people.
And I had a friends stop by to bring flowers.
And she's not deeply religious, she's just very well read, and I would say she's spiritual. And she said to me, you know, they're just right here. And I'm like, what do you mean, they're just right here? And she's like, they're just right here, And I thought, how can you say that with such conviction?
And she said, you just start reading.
If you start reading, you'll see that all the material is out there around where we're going, what we're doing, what this all means. A lot of research has been done. She knew I had kind of had a science mind, and she goes, so just start looking. So I made a commitment at that moment. Okay, I don't know what I'm doing next for my next project, which I thought was going to be a film at the time, but whatever it is, I want to answer these big questions. I don't want it to be about social issues in
America anymore. I want it to be about human issues and why we're here and what we're doing this all means. Because I was trying to figure out where are my friends? And I started diving into books about animal consciousness, plant communication, Ian Stevenson's work around reincarnation, and children and was reading everything I could get my hands on. And that also
included listening to some podcasts. And there's one I loved called The Cosmos and You, and they had an interview with doctor Diane Hennessey Powell, who was a neuroscientist JOHNS.
Hopkins educated Harvard.
She'd worked at Harvard, who had been studying widespread claims of telepathy in non speakers with autism, and something hit me like a lightning bolt. And I always feel, I deeply believe that as something is intended for you, it won't miss you. And in that moment, I just thought, this is whatever is here, this is it, this has the answer.
And I think part of.
It too was my brother's high functioning on the spectrum. And the thing that I know, just my own experience with autism is this sense of telling the truth. You know, there's not a lot of jockeying for ego driven purposes. There tends to be a deep truth telling, which is one of the most beautiful things I think about autism and some respects. And so I felt the messengers in this case are the most trustworthy and unassuming.
So that kind of led me down this path.
Had you always felt that way about all your projects before as well? That there was always this very.
Clear I think most of my films that are self driven, you know, there are some that are work for hire, someone just has you directed, but the ones that I generate tend to be deeply personal, deeply specific. I'm trying to answer or heal something, but There were two films that I've made where I remember or projects where I would actually start praying through it, like if I'm going to die, just please let me get to the finish
line of this, because I'm intended to do this. If I don't make it, then it just feels so big. And this was one of those. There was two my life, and the first was my first film, Fish out of Water.
In this one, well.
To describe for someone who doesn't know anything about this, how would you describe or explain what telepathy actually means?
Telepathy historically is right reading some of mind.
You know exactly what they're thinking, so or you could hear their thoughts as though someone was speaking in And that's what I thought this was at first, and I thought there could be a scientific explanation around the You know when often a site is a muted other senses heightened, and in.
This case, it feels a lot deeper.
And in fact, a lot of the parents started saying right away, this isn't just sheer telepathy. We think we might be sharing a consciousness or there's some sort of merging going on. It feels deeper and much more complex and simple mind reading.
Wow, And is it mind reading their feeling everything from as I've heard and seen of like numbers and places and letters, or is it also emotions and feelings and what are we seeing that spectrum there?
Yeah, and I think you know again it depends on the individual. But from a lot of the non speakers I've met, I'd say the gift could be varied. There are some parents who will say, my child will know exactly what I'm doing during the day when they're at school. They'll know what I'm thinking, where, when, who I met with, and what is that? That's not to lucky, that's something bigger, right.
There's some parents who say, if I one of my favorite stories is one of the non speakers once you start communicatings knew all the things there was to know about Harry Potter or different books. And the parents thought how And this individual said, I read them through my sister's mind when she was reading them, and so just really fascinating things. Is that mind reading or is it
like fully? And then there's been teachers who say, my students have said that they can see through my eyes or hear through my ears, and it feels as though when they might be using my neurology in some way because their neurology is unreliable. It's helpful and grounding to utilize mine. And so I'm just telling you what other people have told me, and the reports are varied and wide.
But something I've heard from many teachers in particular or parents is that like, sometimes the thought will occur and it's like, well, where did that thought even generate? Which makes you wonder like is it coming? Is consciousness coming from a different place and we're tapping into it together. The parents and teachers who are in this world, they just have so many questions like what is this? Because it does feel bigger than typical I'm reading your mind telepathy?
So dwait, did you reach out to doctor Powell? How did that go?
Okay?
So yeah, I reach out to doctor Powell and I said, look, I'm a filmmaker, I'm very interested in what you've been uncovering.
I'd love to get to know you.
We did a few zoom calls and then I flew up to meet her, and it was wonderful because one of the first things I did is I wanted to see, like, what's the scope of this? And I asked if she wouldn't mind reading some emails off from parents, and of course, you know hippolaws.
She can't show me the names.
But I saw in her inbox like the folder of so many emails from parents, and I thought, good grief, this is like really big, and.
She started reading some of the emails.
And of course, I think anyone walking into this has a healthy dose of skepticism. I mean, telepathy seems like a superpower, and the Spider Man movie doesn't feel real and so but these parents, one after the other, were saying, look, I didn't believe my wife, and I tested this myself, and I'm a doctor, so I couldn't fathom this. But this is real, this is happening, And so many emails from people like that. It's not that they were and believing.
They were coming to doctor Powell with their own questions around how is this possible? Can someone answer this for me? And they were coming in from all over the world. At that point I realized that like the only place these people had right now was doctor Powell's inbox, that most of them hadn't ever met each other, and it felt like the strings weren't being tied together yet, you know, and doctor Powell has her own practice, like she's a
researcher and scientist. It just felt like this was so much bigger than honestly either of us, and certainly the families. And then I started meeting some of the families. Doctor Powell introduced me to a few, and I wanted to find one that she'd never met before, never tested to test myself. So same thing like it's hard to believe, and I wanted to not to pick the place. I wanted to bring my own cues, set it up, make sure that we covered anything reflective so that we could
test this and see if it bears out. And it was remarkable to be in that room and see someone reading someone else's mind over and over and over again, to the point within like an hour we were like, this is not boring, but just like it became okay, she could do it cool, like let's try this, let's try this, let's you know, just kept kind of pushing the envelope, and this young girl Mia could read her mom's mind. Anything we showed her mom, she could tell you,
you know. And then I have more families and more families and kept seeing it over and over and over again to the point where now. I'm like, well, that's self evident, and I think the parents are there too, it's not. They're like, we don't need anyone to prove this is happening. We need to know why this is happening.
That's their question. Yeah, how would these parents discovering it in the first place? What was there? Yeah?
I mean, I think to me is like the most beautiful and part of the stories.
It's really based in love.
I mean, for so many of these parents, they have children that are diagnosed with something that is often like very hope stealing in terms of the diagnosis, and I think often there's doctors telling them your child will never be competent, won't learn beyond this certain level, they might not connect with you, they won't ever speak, And I
don't think these parents are given much hope. And to love someone without getting a lot of you know, physical or verbal feedback around like I love you, thank you back is very difficult. So it's the ultimate sacrifice these parents are making. And so many of them have been told again their child will never speak. And somewhere along the line, most of them, people at least that we've featured, have discovered spelling to communicate which is a method for
non speakers to communicate by pointing to letters. And that's a gross motor skill, whereas talking is a fine motor skill. So if you can't talk, it's okay if you can point.
Often these parents would see this and think that's not my kid, because my kid is still you know, banging their head against the wall or maybe even smearing feces, just really difficult behaviors, and these parents are thinking, there's no way it's my kid, often like the deepest leap of hope, not wanting to have your heart broken again. And these parents would try bring their child to learn to spell, and it's often time consuming and such sacrifice
and such practice, and their child get there. And there's a point which is called getting open on the board where you're not just answering a yes or no question or filling in a blank, where you start driving the conversation yourself.
And when these children became open.
Pretty soon thereafter, they started saying things are about being able to read minds or knowing what their parent is thinking. And of course when you first hear that, there's kind of that like oh wait, wait really, and what happened in most of these cases that the parents would do some tests and do their own experiments and then end up with a ton of questions search about this on the internet. Up until now, there's nothing about it out there, and usually they would find doctor Powell.
Did doctor Powell ever explain why this specifically existed for non speakers?
No. But I think what a lot of parents believe, and I think teachers too, is that most of the non speakers that were featuring have apraxia, which is where your mind and body are not connected. So if you have a praxia control your behaviors, that doesn't get you very far. Because that's a big thing. I want people take aways like, this is not about autism. I never talk about it as being about autism. It's about a praxia and not being connected to your body. Yeah, that's
the that's the thing that's missing. And in fact, a lot of parents are like, I don't think I could autism. We have this big wide tent of how we diagnose this, and people say it's autism, but no, it's a praxia and that's the mind by disconnect. So a lot of it is like the diagnosis could be totally wrong too, And that's when I realized, Okay, this isn't just like a telepathy thing, this isn't about a biological heightened sense.
It felt to me and this is why I landed, is that this is a spiritual gift and it's a and there's a bouquet of them that for some reason, the non speaking individuals with a praxia the mind body disconnect seem easier to tap into. Then during COVID, they had to self teach their children at home, and then they were shocked at how much their kid knew. But no one ever spent the time to because these a lot of the teachers might not have thought these people
are in there either. So COVID was a huge motivator for a lot of these changes when where parents saw my kid is in there NI can spell.
Has there been any examples of any parents who weren't communicating with their non speakers And then maybe through your work or doctor powers work kind of become aware of this and then tried to experiment and experience where they didn't realize that they speaking child could talk to them in this way by spelling for sure.
I mean, we've had our inbox has been the most delightfully joyful thing because so many of the emails we're getting is our people being like, I did not ever think my child could spell. I didn't think they're in there. And then I heard these other stories of parents who felt the same way. And now I'm getting my child to spell. But the best ones are I mean, they're not the best ones, they're all the best. But another really fun thing that we're getting our videos from parents
saying my child is spelling. I never thought in a million years are a helpathics. So then I started doing tests, and we tested with four numbers and here's the video.
They could do it.
And here's nine numbers and they could do it. And here's twenty two numbers and they could do it. And so those are really fun that parents are suddenly doing like telepity tests with their kids. And then the other thing that's really beautiful is there's parents who, having listened to the Fluppity tapes, I think their children realize, Okay, my parent has opened to this. Just like you, you're not going to go talk about something to someone if you think they're going to judge you or be scared
of you or whatever. So what we're hearing a lot on the ground from parents and teachers. Is that because they listened, the non speaking student or nephew or child in their life suddenly feels safe saying, hey, I can do this too, or here's what's up, or here's all of me. Let me invite you in. And they've said that the world has just expanded in this beautiful way, knowing that that like it's a safe space now to be fully who you are, which includes those gifts for some nonspeakers.
So up until now, what kind of responses of those questions met.
I don't know if science has like fully done all the reason they haven't done any research on this really yet to my I mean, that's not true. There's been telepathy research and PI research and precognition research that's been happening for a long time which is pretty conclusive. And however, the gifts of the non speakers, I think this is a new frontier for science. And that's one of the ethical things that I think everyone needs to consider greatly, is like how do we research this?
Because what I have found and if.
You think of like a Jane goodall right, like the way she did science is she'd go spend time for months, you know, with the chimps until she finally observed what their life was really like because she immersed herself in it, right. And it's like, if you're going to go watch a beautiful lightning bug sinking up in nature, you wouldn't bring them into a lab.
You'd go and watch and immerse.
And my plea is that scientists will take off their lab coats, pick up a letter board, learn how to do this, immerse themselves with a non speaker, and they will see and experience and can ask the questions because I think the non speakers have a lot to offer and they can talk about this themselves what's going on.
But I've been hearing a lot of chatter online about like put them in a far day to cage and put them in two separate rooms and do this, and it's like, I don't know if that's going to be the most beautiful, helpful, empowering way to research this.
I do appreciate your insight on immersive observation, especially. I like your analogy of thinking about it as if you're watching something in nature and you have to see it in its own space and its own habitat and its own environment where it naturally functions and isn't put into this space. And I've always felt and known that there's so much more that we're capable of that we don't know.
How do we draw the difference and distinction between this and intuition and some of the other things that we may be more familiar with as a society. How is this so different?
I don't think it is different.
And I think that all of these things which you know, I have learned are called sigh abilities PSI, I think come from the same place. And in the telepathy tapes in episode six, we really look at the science and how our world has been understood, and everything is this framework of what we call materialism, this idea that what's real is what can be observed and measured, and materialism has dictated our thinking for centuries, and most of materialism
is right. I don't think it's wrong. We shouldn't throw away our textbooks entirely. However, at the very tippy top of you know, after you have physiology and biology and psychology and all the things that make up our material world. At the tippy top right now, we've consciousness, and no one knows where it comes from and why it's there. And what I think the theory that many people before
me have put forth and then I believe it. So I put this forth in the selepty tapes, is that consciousness isn't at the top of the pyramid of our world.
It's at the bottom. It's fundamental. It comes first.
I mean everything in this office was a thought first, none of it was real, and then the thought came after. And so if you think about it that way, and that consciousness is fundamental, then telepathy, siabilities, precognition, mediumship, all these things that seem like woo a little wooby wooby all makes sense because our truest truth is non physical.
How do you define consciousness in that context?
It is the foundation. Consciousness came first and the whole physical world came after. It's not that the physical world came first and consciousness came after. And if we just invert the try trying gole, keep everything else the same in the materialist world, just put the consciousness from the top to the bottom, then we can explain all of this. And if anyone was out out there is like I want to look into this more, you could look into remote viewing.
That's one of the most easy to.
Validate sihabilities, which is being able to see something at a location where you're not and the CIA use that for years.
We know that that's been de classified.
You know, what do you mean, tell me a bit more about it.
Well, I'm this is one of the books I read and like trying to understand all of this is there's
a great book by an author named Annie Jacobson. It's called Phenomena, and what it was about was the declassified papers from the CIA about their projects Grill Flame and Project Stargate programs, which was really active in the seventies and into the eighties where they were using remote viewing and because the Russians were and what that was is they found that some people were extremely good at if you could give them a line of longitude and a
line of latitude, they could sit at the Stanford Research into Suit, California and tell you draw a picture of
what was there? No way, Yeah, And it's fascinating. And so they did a bunch of research around this and how this is possible, and they would put some of the best remote viewers under the ocean in a submarine to be like, okay, well we know waves can't penetrate that deep of water, Like, so what is this skill, Like is it still possible underwater because telephone signals aren't right, cell phone signals aren't like most signals can't go through water.
And these remote viewers were significantly accurate, like statistically so that they could still.
Find targets when underwater.
And there's been so much released on that program. Yeah, and I think one of the best remote viewers was I believe a Burbank police chief and someone Fbioca was in his office and saw that he had like marked on the map where submarines were. Well, that's alarming. How does this guy know where the submarines were? And he was like I could just see him. And he became one of the best like remote viewer in the program.
And they did some of these quote unquote telepity tests, tapes of these telepathy tests with another man named Uri Geller. They would have him draw what was in a closed box and he was pretty accurate. And so if people want to read that book, like that's a great gateway into this that shows something is happening, something is real. And this program went on for a long time and they say it's expired.
I think it's probably.
Still going on in the United States government, but that was remote viewing and using psychic abilities.
Are there any other programs or things you've come across like that that are used in the modern world in a less spiritual space.
For sure, Russia, China, the United States have been looking into these siabilities as very real elements, and of course they're trying to use it for warfare and spying.
I know that there's a lot of people who will teach revote.
Viewing and map dousing, where you try to go figure out where something might be located on a map, and some people are really good at that. It could be like the ancient whatever aqueduct is here and they can help you find it, and like, these are things that have map dowsing has gone on for thousands of years where people will know what's underground.
How. I don't understand how, but it's a real thing.
I did not understand how remote viewing could work, and so I went to a workshop one day because I thought, I wonder if I could learn this. And this was kind of like right in the heart of like me trying to understand everything, and I was just immersing into anything I could, And so I went to like a workshop where they.
Try to teach you how to do this.
And I was with one of my close friends and they said, Okay, we're going to do a remote viewing experiment. We're about to pull a slide up and you all have to draw what's on the slide. And I was like a slide, Like, that's not even like in the physical world that we can like maybe see how's.
That going to work?
And so all these everyone's close, you know, trying to clear the mind, and people. After ten minutes or whatever, I look at some of the drawings. It looks like people were drawing like these big circles and stuff. And what I was getting in my head was like draw a tree and like a little bit of water and the word green and a bird and a son. And my drawing looks so rudimentary, like something a four year old wuld draw. And then all of a sudden they
show what it was and it was a peacock. And I'm like, okay, so I had bird and green, but I don't think that counts. And then my friend turns over her paper and on her paper was a tree and a son.
She wrote the word green. She had water.
We had the same picture I have a picture on my phone and that's when I'm like, Okay, I don't know what's going on here. For we're remore viewing of her and I just crossed paths and there was like real telepathy, like we sunk up whatever signal it was. Her and I had the same drawing. And that's when
I was like, this whole thing is really mysterious. And I finally understood what the parents were talking about, because I was like, did we both tune into the same signal or were we sharing and influencing each other?
What was that?
But that was an astounding moment for me that made me believe in things like remote viewing.
Have you and your friend ever tried doing that again?
No, I should ask her.
Yeah, yeah, that would be really fascinating to sit down again.
Yeah, it would really be awesome to try that again. And for me, the biggest shock was again I thought, okay, we're setting telepathy. We can do these selepathy tests. We can prove it or you know, validate it. I guess there's no proof in science, but validate it. And that's what I thought was But then when I was immersed with so many these wonderful human beings and families. The thing that I started seeing and that they start talking about quite quickly, especially the non speakers, is no, this
is bigger than selepathy. So many individuals can also no languages that they've never learned, Well, how is that possible? Or tell the future and can accurately predict something that's going to happen and sure that could be coincidental or maybe it's not. Or had information about something they'd never learned, be it math or science or even spiritual information. And so many others were talking about seeing beyond the grave, like knowing people and bringing messages through, and that was
totally disorienting for me because that was all new. I didn't think any of that stuff was possible. Individuals talking about rocks that had powers. I mean I came into that being like.
Wait what, Yeah, it's one of those things, isn't it. Where it's it's so hard in our material world to give space for invisible thinking. Yeah, because like you said, everything that we look at is so visibly measured, visibly real. That's how we function as a society. Then almost when these ideas start to seep in, it starts to become very challenging. And certain ideas have found their place in
the Western world. When you look at things like astrology and so coming from an Eastern background, astrologers who have incredible abilities rarely exist anymore, but those that in India had these abilities. Like you've seen the Western version of astrology evolve, and it exists in some capacity in our world, but you find most of these ideas kind of fall by the wayside and don't really have a version, or like a lot of astrology can be and is labeled as woo woo or just you know, made up or
meant to make people feel safe. What was it that gave you so much trust when you were doing these tests yourself, that gave you a sense of confidence from being someone who, in your own words, you felt, well, it's not that you came from a spiritual background or this what you're open to. And all of a sudden you're like, no, I believe this. What did you see? What did you experience that you were like, no, no, this this is legitimate.
And I think the most important thing for anyone walking into this world is forget about the telepathy, forget about all that stuff like meet the people and when you're talking to parents, in particular, who are stretched thin. They have so many just daily challenges with working, you know, just helping their children, but actually battling for their children every day to get the education they need, the supports
they need, the care they need. And for these parents who have so much love and so much sacrifice, and yet there's this other dimension of what the heck is going on and their sincerity of just like, we know this is happening, can you just help us? Unders and why when you start hearing that from parent after parent after parent who don't know each other, it's pretty clear
there's not a mass conspiracy going on. And so meeting the parents, loving the parents, I mean, they truly are the biggest almost they're the love warriors on this earth right now. And then meeting the non speakers with just such honesty around what's going on, there's no it's not for them. This is just life here. I'm going to talk about this, I'm gonna share this, I'm going to
talk about this. And that became convincing and then and then so I think I walked in trusting the parents, trusting them on speakers, believing that they were telling the truth. And then I think when you are coming from it, from a place of belief and trust, it's so much more likely for these things to unfold. You know, a lot of I think, not just me, but scientists would say like love is the basis of a lot of
these sigh abilities. If anyone ever has had this moment where something went wrong, it's because you love that person, you felt deeply something happened to that person.
We have accounts of that from all over the world in history.
Or you're thinking about someone you care deeply about in the second that the phone rings and it's them. I mean, these links are I think based in love, and they're not that rare. We've all had that phone telepathy. And I just want to say this really quick too, because I think that that belief as a as a measure of like being able to experience and see some of
this stuff. There is space for that. In science, we have the placebo effect that's part and parcel of every major medical study because it's real belief and believing in something helps and changes the outcomes. I think if you to walk in with the non speakers and think, I don't believe this possible, I don't think you're gonna see much. But I think when you're like I trust you. I
trust what you're saying is true. I think people are much more likely to be themselves and show their full self and to LUPII is part of that.
In this world, I.
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convinced her that this was real? What research had she found that made it feel so legitimate to her as well?
You know, I was so impressed with doctor Powell. I mean, she's a real thoughtful scientist in this regard, And she was studying savant syndrome at first, and savan sympdrome is really interesting, and I mean her big thesis is esp should be considered a savans skill because science as a whole legitimately is the savants that you might know a language or music or math without being taught or exposed to it. And that's pretty wild. How does that happen
if you haven't taught it? And so you speaks in the same realm, right, like you know something you shouldn't know, because how how could you know the future?
How can you someone's thoughts?
So could you tell us what esp oh?
ESP is an.
Extra sensory perception, so a sense of knowing something without your five senses.
So she was studying savant skills, and what was.
Fascinating is some of the parents who had a quote unquote savant, which is a troubling moorden of itself for a few reasons we can talk about later. But like we're saying, actually, I don't know if their savant. I thought they were because I thought they had every book on my bookshelf memorized. But then I'm learning no, I think they can see through my eyes or I think they're reading my mind. And she heard that enough times that she started studying that and lo and behold in
the studies she did. She was seeing what I saw, which was the spars out. Unfortunately, because so many of our scientific institutions are rooted materialism and the journals and such, it's really hard to publish papers on this to get grants to do the research around it, to publish a book on it. And when she published a book and was on her book tour, suddenly the board said we're taking your license away because we think you must there must be something wrong with you.
And she had a petition.
She had to go through psychological testing to prove that she was of sound mind, and then she begged them to look at the book and they realized, oh, this is sound science and she's sound. Okay, you can have your license back and you can do this, but the trauma is done because you've had to pay a lot of fees. It hurts your reputation. It comes up on Google.
And so I think for a lot of the scientists who are on the cutting edge of this too, they've been harm because for me, I believe that at the baseline for science, you should have a freedom of inquiry.
You should be able to ask a question and see where it leads.
And as a society we need to ask ourselfs, well, what is going on if you can't ask a question because people are afraid of the answer. I mean, that's troubling and us also limiting because as humans, this is really exciting that there is a very real, non physical world, and I think that's what everyone actually cares about at the end of the day, Like don't we care if
that has implications for where we're going and why we're here. Yeah, so doctor Powell, she saw the truth of it, but she also ran hard into the deeply skeptical materialist society and science world.
Well kept her going, I mean.
I think the same thing.
I mean, she laid low for a while after that, you know, and then she actually retired when right before the telept the tapes came out. She's like, I don't want to be fined again. I don't want to deal with all this, and she was ready, but she was like, this is not worth it. So I think what kept her going is kind of the same thing that you know, when I hit upload on that first episode, I was like, I might destroy my entire reputation as a documentarian, as
a human being. I don't know what people are going to think, but like this is true, and it's this truth is worth it. And I think doctor Powell underwent that when you see it, you can't see it. When you're in the room and you experience it, you can't unexperience it. And when you meet these families so full of love and truth and earnestness that are just like someone tell us why no one is listening? You kind
of want to carry the burden for them. You shouldered for them, because you're like, you aren't crazy, You're telling the truth, like someone does need to listen. And I think doctor Powell felt that urgency of like, I will carry your torch. And then I met all of them and I was like, I will also carry your torch. And now I think there's a lot of listeners carrying the torch, which is.
Yeah, definitely. There are so many people that I've been speaking to about it with since I've been listening, and the conversations that it's starting are actually the most exciting part for me. I think the curiosity that it's sparking
in people. I was trying to think about, actually, when else in society, when have we had that kind of resistance to something like I don't know if you've looked back, and I'm sure with your research mind, like, have you looked back at times in society where we would have been like, no, going to the moon is ridiculous, it's
never going to happen. And then we do it right, because that in one sense is outside of our visible world to some degree in terms of before you could see it or now when we talk about, you know, building life on another planet. It's become normalized because Elon Musk or whoever will talk about these things publicly. So often have you looked at any other times with things? Oh for sure? You know?
And there's that quote, all truth goes through three stages. First it's ridiculed, that it's violently opposed, and then it's accepted a self evident And I feel like that's one of these moments. And you know, there's when Mendel first said that jeans cause disease. I mean that was like a big moment where people were laughing at that. That seems silly, like little things would go into and make
you sick. Now it's self evident, you know. It's the flat earth, Like people believe the Earth was flat for a really long time and then it wasn't, but people like clung to that.
I mean, there's still few.
But I think about the materialist science of now and I'm like, I wonder if in a hundred years they're going to clinging to the materialism.
It's they're going to look like the flat earthers. You know.
But even when the Wright brothers first launched their plane, people didn't believe it.
They didn't believe it unless they saw it.
They had to go on a tour and fly their little plane all over for people to believe it.
So it's not this.
I think this happens with any big leap, whether it's in science and spirituality or whatever it is. And and this is just this is the blowback, the anger, the confusion, the trying to find like you know, the character assassination is going to come from anyone caring that that's happened throughout history. That it's just part and percel when you bring in big news.
I thing, yeah, for sure, for sure. And I'd almost think that it's at like a perfect synchronicity with all of our developments in AI. Like you know, we're at this precipice where it's like AI is the new frontier at a very basic level. Everyone's now using chat, GPT, and then we're looking at what singularity could look like, and we're looking at the tech horizon of all of
this advancement. And it only makes sense to me that at the same time we need this other side that we're also seeing these advancements in our spiritual understanding and our spiritual exploration. And I wanted to ask you, like, so far with doctor Powell's work and what you've seen, what has been conclusively defined or when people asking the question why is this happening, what do we know, if anything right now of why it's happening.
I don't think we know yet right And I think it's because there's been such a lack of funding. I mean, that was one of the hopes with slaptly tapes is to get doctor Powell some funding, and she's gotten funding now, which is great, and you know, I know she wants to look at some MRI scans and some QEG scans and that's important because she's looking at from the brain stuff, which is what a neuroscientist should be doing. And I'm interested in doing like really good telepathy tests that are
visual for film. And so many scientists have been reaching out, which has been beautiful since this has come forward, being like I want to work out a experiment or research and so I'm trying to get on board with our team non speaking science advisor to kind of help and then do a roundtable with a bunch of the scientists who all have big ideas, bring some of the non speakers in and have a conversation about like what can we test, what should we test, what would be helpful,
what are the limitations, and kind of go from there.
Why do you think it's so important? What do you think? I'm intrigued to know what you think it would unlock for us by discovering the answer behind this? What do you see?
Well, again, I think it's more than just telepathy.
Yes, agreed. Yeah.
And there's a teacher who has been at this longer than doctor Powell or me I'm in Wisconsin who will constantly say I think there's a sharing of consciousness.
I think there's a linking.
And that's a curious question because if that's the case, that means that consciousness is coming from somewhere else and that we like can beam into it.
I mean, I don't know, Like if you think of.
Our body as a television set, right that will animate and all this stuff, but that's it's like we don't carry the signal. The signal is coming from somewhere else. That's one view of consciousness, Like that is one possibility and I think the non speaking telepathy pairing that happens with a teacher or a parent. If we could test through a QEG and figure out is the message coming in, Like this is a brain lighting up at the same time in the same place, we might be able to learn something.
I'm not a scientist, so I want.
Other people to carry the torch and figure out the experiments, and I hope to create for the film, like we're going to make some spaces where non speakers and researchers and scientists can talk about it, and then I hope the science just goes forth in a comfortable way for everyone. My biggest concern, of course, is exploit of not speaking individuals in their families, Like it has to be in a way that feels really safe and good for them,
and some families want answers. Some are just like, we know this is happening, This is great, this has changed our lives. Everyone has to volunteer and do what's comfortable for them.
But I just my goal goal.
Was to get this out there and so that people would listen to the parents and hopefully believe them.
Yeah, when you start doing the tests, I remember you saying that you were seeing like a ninety five percent success rate, which is extremely high. What were you seeing in the five percent that was inaccurate or incomplete?
Yeah, And I'm smiling when you said that because, like I said ninety five percent, because it just felt like the more sciencey thing to say, like it.
Was actually pretty much like one hundred.
But like when I talk about the five percent, it's because they're spelling to communicate. So sometimes if like they were if Pony was the thing that was on the flash card, maybe they spelled like pp it hit twice, oh and y or something like that, where it's like can we count it? We won't count it because there was a p hit twice, so we would discount it. Again, I'm not scientists, but in like my human mind, I was like.
That counted, you know.
So there is that element where it's like they wrote the thing it would be it would be a tactical air like that.
Yeah right, oh wow, So it was it was literally things like spelling.
Basically it was like yeah, or a double tap a double tap? Yeah, well yeah, it'd be a double tap. I remember when we were doing one clep at the experiment, there was a production assistant that was like walking around with Dorito's and then every time they entered room at the room with the Dorito's, it's like the test would get disrupted, like most of the word would be spelled like bicycle, and then you would be left off because it'd be like Dorito's are here, you know, and so
stuff like that. We didn't count it because all bicycle didn't. But again, like the science they part was like, Okay, we can't count a bicycle because the whole world wasn't spelled.
But like the human being in me.
Was like she just wrote bicycle and then Dorito's game in the room.
And what about some of them that could see colors and letters around numbers? Where was that coming from?
Yeah, I mean so there's something called synesthesia, yes, and that is synesthesia, right, you see colors, different senses get tied to different things with non speaking individuals, it's really beautiful and interesting and again like broadbrush here. So but some of the people I was talking with, like one girl says that she sees the colors around each letter, so she doesn't have to see the letter board because she's pointing to a color.
So that's pretty cool.
A lot of non speaking individuals say they see auras not just around people, but around plants and cut flowers, and they'll see that the aura drifting off as the cut floor of flowers dying around rocks. And again it wouldn't be just one individual, it'll be many saying these things. So at a certain point you're like, Okay, things have auras and there's colors, and it tells you how if someone's good or bad or angry or whatever.
You know.
I mean, it was just beautiful the amount of information that was so articulate and so profound that was being shared across the board.
You've dedicated three and a half years to this now, right, do you feel like it feels like your purpose? It's become something? That's so I mean, to dedicate three and a half years is a long, long, long, long time. And the celebrity types and fairly recently like just around the holidays or whatever, and to see the incredible success they've had, but it's been so much study and time.
What I want to know your emotions and feelings throughout this three and a half years, and then whether it feels like your purpose now?
Yeah, I mean no, I think everything my life has led to this. I think everything has and it is fully my purpose for being here. And I'm so humbled, like, what a wonderful, wonderful purpose. And I don't know if purpose is given to us from somewhere else or if it creates your purpose, but like my favorite book is
Victor Frankol's Answers for Meaning, and I love that. One of the beautiful takeaways in that book, right is like the meaning of life is whatever gives your life meaning, and nothing ever to come across my path outside of the people I love, like my you know, spouse and kids, but beyond that, like nothing has given my more meeting business.
It's it's to me.
It's answering and picking through the most complex important questions. So like, what a humbling, beautiful gift to just have fallen into this beautiful.
What meaning has it spoken to you for you? So? What questions has it answered for you? Or what questions has it made you ask? That you find it so meaningful for us to know?
You know, for me, it was really appealing of the onion. And first it was seeing the telepathy over and over and over again and being like, Okay, I don't need to ask that question, that's fully happening. And then I almost feel like the parents would let me in on things as they thought I was ready.
You know.
So even hearing and understand that Houston, one of the individuals and to the telepathy tapes, understands that feels rocks so deeply, and that was something that I always just shrugged off. Okay, So if telepathy is real and Rocks truly give off you know, energy and frequency, what else have I dismissed?
That's real?
So I started finding that things that I just shoved away as like that's impossible, this is fake, or these are Charlton's or frauds.
You know.
I started coming to terms with everything I'd ever just ignored or dismissed in life and reevaluating it.
So telepathy like yes, okay, rock.
Crystals Now I'm like, okay, I have crystal things on my wrist, Like it's like, yes, those have a powerful thing. And then non speakers talking about the other side. I mean, that was something that came up a lot. In fact, that often is the first thing before telepathy is this person's here, Auntie has this message for you. You know, this person is telling me not that you tell whoever in India not to buy this land. Because that land
has a bad well on it. And I mean just the amount of messages parents were telling me that they were receiving from the other side through their child was wild.
That was relevant to the parent's life, that.
Was so relevant, that would bear out that there's no way their child would know. So then it started making me think, Okay, we don't go away like there were here something like it's consciousness survives. I think all of it was a cognitive dissonance of now. I fully believe that SIA abilities are real, that consciousness survives death, that we are all intimately connected, that love is the baseline for everything. And I think I see and on speakers as my teacher, not the other way around. I mean,
there are all of our teachers. If people just take the time to listen and meet them where they're at, and I think what they would say is love is the most important thing.
We have it all wrong.
We're all connected, it is bigger than any of us, and that these spiritual gifts are in us all.
Yeah. I mean, the Eastern traditions describe consciousness to have three qualities, such chain ananda, which mean full of knowledge, which makes sense to what you're saying. Now eternal, endless, and full of bliss love. And so when you're saying that even through your discovery that potentially consciousness, the idea that there's greater consciousness where there's knowledge, your message is being inferred that comes from that full of knowledge. The
idea that you're saying consciousness doesn't die. Use the word there, I've forgot it. But this idea that it's continuous and that continues to exist is the eternal part. And then like you said, it's founded on love, is the full of bliss. So those qualities actually seem to match very coherently with the Eastern spiritual traditions of understanding what consciousness
actually is. I've always been excited about science catching up with spirituality, and so I love when science can prove the value in spirituality and beliefs or practices that have happened for hundreds or thousands of years. And I've seen it happen with mindfulness and meditation, where you know, these practices have been around for thousands of years. In today, mindfulness and meditation are no longer woo woo and made up.
When meditation was first being studied, it was kind of ridiculed as being.
Woo woo, even when I first started practicing it, Like I first started practicing meditation around two thousand and seven, and if you talked about meditation to someone in two thousand and seven, they didn't really think it was that valuable, or they thought it was just made up. Or if you told someone that breath work was a way of calming yourself down or you know, reduce negative thoughts or anxiety,
people would have laughed at you. And so I've seen it happen with a few things, and I've always been excited by when science has been able to have the language, the tools, the vocabulary to talk about these ideas. I was just back at the monastery that I used to live out in India this January, and I had some of my most powerful meditation experiences nearly twenty years after I
first started meditating. And it's hard to explain, like it's hard to put into words, and you know, you can often feel and I'm sure you know the nonverbal children they probably feel as well, like how little they can, even you know, through the written word, actually explain what they're experiencing or what they're going through. And we can all identify with emotions and feelings like that, even if
we don't believe, no trust what's going on. I think we've all had experiences we're like, I have no idea how to explain this, or I have no idea how to put this into words. I've always wanted that marriage between science and spirituality, where science will actually look to
spirituality for what to look into. Me and Andrew Huberman, who's been on the show a few times, we'll always talk about a lot of the practices he suggests and recommends, like starting off your day looking at sunlight, which kicks off our circadian rhythm and keeps everything in harmony and balance. Suria Numashkara, which translated his sun salutations, is an ancient practice of looking at the sun when you wake up first thing in the morning, and how that was the
way to get your body invigorated. And so you see these similarities in these ancient practices that people have done for thousands of years. They may not have said, oh, it's about the circadian rhythm, and you know, they didn't talk about it like that, but they were these beautiful practices in every tradition that existed because of their value to the human body, the human mind, and the human spirit.
It's beautiful and it's all correct. I think you're right, and I think science is catching up to some of the stuff because when you look back and things like telepathy, if you go to most native you know, groups of people are still around and thriving. I think they would say, yeah, duh, yeah, you know, the sense of being stared at is real, like often like remote Viewington, where the hunt is is real. These are things that were part and parcel of survival
for individuals, and we feel removed from it. But it doesn't mean that it's hasn't always been there.
Yeah, exactly. And while there are naturally as always people who've exploited or lied or pretended or Charlotte whatever in these traditions, naturally as there are in everywhere science included and everywhere else, it's almost like those people exist because the real thing exists because there's someone who can do it for real, and then someone's trying to, you know, do something with it. Exactly, But that's usually how it works.
You only get this a terrible example, but that's when my mind's going, You only get fake Gucci handbags because there's real ones, right, And that's the idea with research. Right, you only get fake something when the real thing has been existed or experienced, and you make the fake version because you don't know how the real one exists.
Right, absolutely, And I think you take something that probably has the most amount of quote unquote Charlatans and the most amount of skepticism, like mediums.
Right.
However, like the Windbridge Institute, Forever Family Foundation, there are groups out there that will like double triple blind test individuals to be like, these are the people we've tested, we've tested, we've tested, we've they don't even know who's the sitter versus blank blink, and they've come up with a list, you know, like fifteen percent of the people they tested were the real deal according to these tests.
So I think that's what's a good reminder for people too, is if you look into a lot of this stuff, some of the people there are organizations and institutions out there looking at the science trying to vet the best from the best, and you can do it, Like, if you spend the time to do the research, you can figure out if it's real and who's the real deal.
Why is all resistance so deep? Like why are we so stuck in our ways? When it comes to these ideas, and the same is probably truecientific and technological advancement too. I think, you know, I recently spoke to Bill Gates and he was talking about the idea that computers would exist in every home. Was just bizarre, like people people are like, that's ridiculous, Like, no one's going to have a personal computer in their home? What's the need? Right?
Was that was the opinion that people had, So I don't think it's I actually don't think it's just spiritually, I think innovation, any form of innovation, yes, meets that kind of resistance. Where where does that come from? Why is it that we're so resistant? What have you seen from human behavior and people you've come across?
For sure? People resistant to change?
Right.
We like our status quo. It feels safe. We like feeling safe.
But I think when it comes to siabilities, usually it's so vulnerable. Right to think that someone could know your mind, or connect with the other side, or tell your future, I mean to be had. When it comes to something so personal, so vulnerable, it's like the worst thing ever. It's like telling a secret and have someone stabbing you
in the back. It's just to lay bare your soul, that someone's actually being a good steward of like your deepest secrets or connections and lying about and profiting off it. I mean, there's like nothing grosser. Profiting off of vulnerability and trust is just the worst. And so I think that's why people are really skeptical. They want to make sure that this stuff, which is good, like we people,
shouldn't be profiting off of people's vulnerability. But I think these skills are real, and I think most of them probably can do it.
Have you felt that spending more time with the children, the families and everything. Are these abilities that those of us that mere mortals and normal can develop and build and grow or are they things that are reserved for specifically the non verbal speakers.
No, I think that everyone probably has these in us to a certain degree, just like some people are excellent basketball and some people can barely shoot a basket. So I think that it depends on the individual. Like telepathy seems so remarkably hard how your I read someone's thoughts, But I will say the thing that it was the hardest episode for me to put into the world because it felt so unbelievable, but I knew it to be true.
Because I witnessed it was that there was a huge amount of teachers, like a lot of teachers who were saying that after working with especially usually one student that they were really close to, they were able to start hearing them back. So the telepathies at going two ways. And when I first heard that, I was shocked, and
I was shocked that it wasn't a parents. I mean it has some parents have said this has happened to them, but a lot of teachers where like I will hear their voice in my head, I can hear their full sentences, I can hear what they're thinking and what they're about
to spell, and it goes the same way. And so some of these teachers have told me it's so powerful now that we can sit next to each other and have a nonverbal educational period and I'll ask questions and they'll write, or they'll ask questions, and then I hear it back and there's no they don't even have to spell. And when I first heard this, I thought, what like can that be? And then I heard it again and then again and then again from people who don't know
each other. And then I heard a woman who was a team you're on a podcast reporting this, and she thought she was the only persons that ever happened to the world. And I remember reaching out, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, you're not alone. Like, I know, it seems like a miracle, but this is not. You know, how's that happened? And I don't know, but I wonder can certain people help us turn it on or like rip off the block
in our brain? And I don't know if the non speaking individuals these teachers were working with help them get there, or if you just clear your mind and you're in the space with someone in such a beautiful special way that we can all do it.
Yeah, I mean I often wonder also whether science will ever be able to measure a lot of these experiences in phenomena in a way that makes sense to everyone. I often wondered that whether some of these things are just the way they are. And like you said, because our scientific tools have been built to measure that which is material and seen, how can we measure something with the tool that's meant to measure something that's seen that's unseen.
Anyway, the most beautiful comment I heard from a non speaking individual about that was they were like, well, why are you all trying to measure telepathy with your instruments was exact wording. And I was like, well, to prove it, And they're like, well, why aren't you trying to prove love in a lab? That is the most special and strongest power. It will cause people to jump into a choppy ocean or to pick up the car with such adrenaline if their child is trapped, Like love is the
greatest superpower, that's the biggest superpower. Why aren't you trying to measure that in a lab? And I was like, I guess I don't know why. I don't know why we're not measuring love. Has love been measured? But that was the equivalent in their mind of like us trying to measure telepathy. This person was like, this is just part and parcel of this, like love, connection, communication, almost survival, right if you can't speak, can't communicate, like beyond spelling,
that it can be a lifeline. And I just thought that was so beautiful because there are certain things that you just accept, and telepathy might be so hard for some people to accept, but if you're living it and breathing it, it's part of your bouquet of what you need to get around in the world.
It might seem silly to measure.
What have you found in your research looking at animals and telepathy?
Yeah, that is a beautiful element to this, I think, and to me it really helped helped me believe everything more. I think that there are mental fields around certain animals. We see this in schools of fish. How are they turning at the exact same time, right, and certain like murmurs of birds who are basically have like the same mind and there is this idea of like, are they all kind of connected to a greater mental field of
consciousness that is helping control their movements. Rupert Childrake, a biologist from Cambridge, talks a lot about this and he's written books and done incredible research on the animals. Pets knowing when their owners are coming home and they'll put cameras around and page somewhat the office, so it's always they're coming home in a different time, in a different car from a different place, and they have cameras and
see that. The dog will go stand by the door, and in some cases cats, and if there's a flat tire, something happens, or this person gets called back into the office, the dog will go back and sit down, and then the sink and their owners heading home again, they come back up. So there seems to be this telepath thick link there. And one of my favorite stories that we share in the Telepathy Tapes has to do with elephants. And there was a conservationist who was trying to get
you know, some rowdy elephants into an animal preserve. And after a good amount of time, this man's name is Lawrence Anthony. You know, he really worked to get the elephants trust he made their safe space. It was a huge amount of land and he hadn't been i think, in touch or seeing these elephants much in the last
few years of his life. And then one day he died. Well, the elephants all kind of gathered and walked to his house from where they were and they all kind of show up right around the same time, and they stayed for a few days mourning. And it was remarkable for his widow because the question is how did these elephants know to go and do their mourning ritual how? And
the story doesn't end there. Every year on the Anniversaro's death, and this went on for a few years, the elephants would leave what they were doing and go to his house and.
Hey, their respects only on that day.
On that day, it took them a while to get there. They had to walk a few days to get there. But yes, they knew exactly when he died the first time, and then they would pay their respects thereafter for a few years on the day.
Of his death.
And so to me, it's like, if you have a hard time grasping telepathy in humans, look at the animals, because we're pretty closely related, you know, And there's just some beautiful treasures of stories of this telepathic link expressing itself in nature.
One thing that really stood out to me was I think you said that the American Speech Language Hearing Association says that spelling is not a valid form of communication, and they call it a pseudoscience. And I was like, so that's interesting as well. Why is it considered that way.
There is a history here for sure, And I think the first thing that kind of made the stigma around spelling really take hold was with facilitated communication, Where facilitated communication was the first Oh my gosh, visuals are spelling that people thought were locked inside and could never spell, and that required like touch and the use of touch became problematic, I think, especially with some people who weren't trained, because some awful court cases erupted from consent that wasn't
given right, horrible things that happened through through this form of spelling. So then spelling evolved into rapid prompting method and spelling to communicate. And now the speller's method where no touch at all, I mean you cannot touch it as like a tenant of that. And when you sit in the room with a speller, it's really remarkable to watch, you know, because they're not being touched.
They're spelling.
It's clear they're pointing directly to where they want to go. It's not like a struggle. The parent is certainly not going like this, you know. Often it's completely like rooted. So it's really difficult that that stigma exists because these individuals are having to prove constantly I'm in here, my words are mine, I authored them, and that's really hard. But I will say that this is not a new thing. Sign language took over one hundred years to become accepted, even in the sixties.
Yeah, I won't me through that. I didn't know that. I learned that through listening like, yeah, one hundred and fifty years, Yeah, sign language took to be accepted. Yeah, what would the steps? Do you know that?
I mean, I think people were saying it wasn't a real language, there's no grammatical structure. The rallying cry was that anyone who is deaf should learn to read lips and try to speak basically fit into our world. We are not going to allow this language to take place. Same thing happened with braille. Louis Brailed, the inventor of braille, kind of modified this language where you could use dots
to communicate, and it was considered it was outlawed. They weren't allowed to use it in school where he was going to school. When they finally did a big test to prove like one person who was blind was going to spell something and another person was going to read it, because the kids were using it like quietly, even though it was like outlawed in the school. And when they did that big test with viewers and people to watch, the first big claim was they're cheating. They practiced an
advance to pretend what they were going to write. It seemed outlandish that you could read dots with your finger and spell by poking holes into something, and so Braille went through the same dilemma. And so I think like this control of how we use language, who's allowed to use it, and if it's valid is not new, but it's really unfortunate because that is a human right to communicate, to say what you want for dinner, I mean, the
most basic things. And if anyone out there is critiquing this without seeing a speller in action, I just think it's like a crime because you are trying to steal a voice from another living human being.
It's really mean.
Yeah, I mean, what do the skeptics think is going on in those homes.
There's a lot around the tests around spelling right to prove it's like efficacy have really changed throughout the years. So at first it's like, okay, no touch. Well, okay, there's no touch.
Now sit further apart. Okay, sit further apart. That's working.
Then it's like the parent shouldn't look at the board. Okay, well we won't look at the board. Then it's like then can the parent leave the room? Well, there's something fascinating, which is why I think it's really important that this whole telepathy bit is getting out there because I think a lot of people who work with spellers, and there are some spellers who are absolutely independent, like they're rock and roll and they're off to the races and it's a.
Journey and it's a evolution.
But there's certainly many spellers I've talked to who say, like, I need a person nearby, a trusted communication partner. And I don't know if it's the physiology is grounding them. I don't know if it is that it's helpful to use their eyes. I have no idea what it is. But there's this beautiful kind of meshing that happens, especially in the earlier parts of the journey that are a bit inexplicable, and if you try to test it, it's.
Going to be like how do you explain that?
And I don't know, But it takes two people to do sign language, you know, you can't do it alone. And so if this partner, and it doesn't always have to often people have many partners, right, There might be some communication partners at school and it work and with a parent, But if that partner is needed to be somewhere in the space to ground you, why does it matter, I mean, why does it actually matter if they're typing on their own with their finger, new thoughts, self diagnosing,
talking about things other people don't know about. I mean, it's clear they're in there and they're communicating their thoughts. Why it is that someone might need to be in the room to help them do it, that's a science question that I can't answer. I think it has to do with physiology. I think it has to do with energy. It might have to do with like using someone else's like frequency to help you just stabilize. I have no iight or integrate with your body.
I don't know what it is. I don't think anyone knows.
But people are asking the wrong questions because they're trying to test test test tests this and not looking at like, well, why is that link needed to make spelling work? But certainly the individuals are typing their own thoughts, often self diagnosing their own care spelling things that the spelling partner might not know about. This fascinating.
What's been your If you had to pick a couple of favorite stories or experiences that have really stayed with your relationships you've built with some of the parents and families, and I mean speaking individuals that stand out to you that you shared on telepathy type.
So every day is a bit of a it's a beautiful thing. And I think about even now that we have a film team working on this, that they are starting to send their stories with Like my producer just wrote the other day and she's like, I just met this mom and then her daughter walked in the room and knew my name and where I lived and what my child's name was, and like why I hadn't said any of that and how did she know that? And I was like, exactly, it's welcome, you know, welcome to the party, and it's.
It's fun.
And like one of my favorite memories was once there's a mom that was trying to get a hold of me and I was busy on like phone calls and I wasn't able to answer, and I was a little concerned, like maybe it's an emergency.
Fast forward, it's like lunch.
I walk out of my home office into my kitchen and I'm making lunch in the phone rings and I was like, oh, your timing is perfect, and she's like, I know, I know, I just I just was told you walked out to get lunch and stuff like that, where it's like oh my goodness, Like are they remote viewing me sometimes, you know, which is fine.
So there's just it's it's like it's of magic every day.
Yeah. I'm not claiming to have any telepathic abilities, but I have this habit of whenever I think of someone, I always messes them, even if I don't need anything or want anything. And nine nine percent of the time when I think of someone, I don't want anything or need something, yeah, so I'll just message them and say, hey, I'm thinking of you and you know, sending love them
here for you. And nine to nine percent of the time someone will mess me back and say I was just thinking about you, yeah, or I need really need to try now whatever it may be. Now, whatever that is, I always love the magic of being able to send that message, whether it mis met with a positive response or not. Yeah, And it's just a beautiful thing to try.
And I think I just love that your work is making us more curious and opening us up to these ideas, because that, to me, is the part of us that's missing when it comes to spiritual innovation.
You know, Mark Twain talked about he called it mental telegraphy, and this was his observation that often you would write a letter to someone you haven't thought about in five, seven years or you know, and then the day that you postmarked it, you'd receive a lot or seven days later or whatever it was postmarked the same day from that person on the other side of the globe. So it's like you both had like the physical male proof of when you sent the letter. And Mark Swain marveled
in that, as one should. And Upton Sinclair, who wrote The Jungle, I mean, you know, beautiful writer. And one of his books that he wrote after he had gone through his life was called Mental Radio, where him and his wife did a bunch of telepathy tests together and they documented how accurate they were. And I love the opening to that book by Upton Sinclair because he's like, this would be the type of thing that should be dismissed or you should you know, is held with such
high skepticism. But what he said is, after I've experienced it, I know this to be true. And I loved his words. He wasn't like I think this is true. It was I know this is true. So this has all been around.
Yeah, what about as you can to ask you boy, the connection between dreams and telepathy. Has there been any connection there. Have you come across anything between those?
Well, I mean, I think for people who are deeply interested in that. We have an episode on that, which is episode eight of the selepty Tapes, which I encourage people to listen to an order. But there was one mom in England and I wanted to we have a spelling episode all about spelling, and that's episode eight where
we go into the issues around spelling. But I thought one of the best non speakers to highlight in that episode would be someone who never learned to spell and him and his mom have a telepathic link together, but it's formed in their dreams where he brings her into a lucid dreaming state the first time it ever happened. I love this story. He was younger, I think he
was maybe like eleven or so. Came to her in a dream and she thought she was dreaming, and then he gave her an ace of spades and did this whole thing like look through the ace of spades, and she like woke up into a lucid dream and then he started talking and telling her all this stuff and remember this in the morning, and they're going to tell you. I need you know, antibiotics, but I need probiotics and blah blah blah blah.
So she woke up in the morning and thought, oh, I just had a dream and he was talking.
Didn't think anything of it, and then he went and saw her the next morning, grabbed up ace of spades from a deck in the other room and like, show did what he did in the dream. And that's when she she realized, oh, my goodness, he came to my in my dream and was talking there and that's how they have deep conversations and they actually start writing music together that way. She didn't know he was a musician until he was starting music therapy late in his life,
I mean in his twenties. Once you discovered that, he started coming to earn dreams and being like this is a melody or these are the lyrics, you need to write this down. And now he's I mean, he's pretty well respected musician in England. Wow, it's all through dreams.
It's incredible. And one of the things that I came across listening that I wanted to know more about is John Paul and Lily and that connection. Can you explain that to the audience who may not have had it yet.
Yeah.
I mean there's a non speaker featured in sy tape. His name is John Paul's episode four. He's episode four, and he's ginormous. I mean he's almost he's like almost seven feet doll. He's a huge individual. And he had a girlfriend named Lily. They would letter board, but they'd often say when they were letter boarding it was for like everyone's benefit around them, that most of their relationship
was telepathic. And John Paul's mother used to say it was really funny because they would go on like dates at her house, and like they'd be on different floors and she'd be like, are they even hanging out?
Like what is this?
And then she would leave and John Paul would be like, that was so great. We had so many awesome conversations, you know, because a lot of it was happening in mine to mine, and it was just a beautiful part of it. And the parents would kind of marvel at like sometimes in the exact second they each each would come down and say, I want to go see you know,
John Paul, I want to go see Lily. We text and the text would come in from each other right at the same time, and that's when the parents were like, they're talking to each other from where they're what, how is this happening? It was telepathy, so yeah, I mean and that you know, John Paul loved Lily so much, and Lily loves John Paul.
I mean, they really wanted to get married.
And I think it's such an important, beautiful element of this, and I think it's important for everyone to understand, is like a non speaking individual is still an individual with their high school interests and you know, hobbies and desires and bands they like and clothes they like and things they want and relationships they want. I mean, I think the spiritual gifts is just a part of it. It's
just a part of it. Like I don't think it's hell to look at these individuals as orcoles or you know, they're human beings that're just sort of more tapped into this.
Yeah right, right, And I think that's an really important point that you made there. It's like we all have different gifts and abilities, and it's just I think if you start to think that this person is gifted beyond that, that I can get quite messy.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, in any way for anything, for.
Sure, you know, I mean, Lily likes biking and go karting, and John paul love poetry and swimming and manatees, and like Mia from episode one wants to be a writer.
She wants to go to Japan.
Like the most important thing is to know any individual what makes them tick, what their interests are, what they want to do with their lives. I mean, like, these are the questions we all should be entitled to answer for ourselves and every non speaking individual. And I just want people to remember this as an individual that should be met in that way. And this is these gifts, if they appear in such an individual is beautiful and cool.
But it's not.
It doesn't define them. Can you explain the well, this was something that didn't form for me as like a valid thing. Immediately, there was a few non speakers in Atlanta that said that they connect on the Hill telepathically and that it's a chat chat room basically a telepathic chatroom where you can tune in. And Houston was a name who named it. He actually named it the Chat
on the Hill to talk on the Hill. And then his good friend John Paula said that he goes there and he would put pillows on his head to block out stuff. And then his girlfriend Lily said she goes there and that a lot of people can get there and that there's more than one hill. So I had a hard time wrapping my head around that. And at first I'm like, Okay, it's an Atlanta thing, like the individuals in Atlanta are doing this where I really talk
about two by four like. There's been a few moments, and for one for me was when I had just met this new teacher in Chicago.
She had no idea idea about telepathy at all.
She had reached out to doctor Powell because her students were talking about ghosts and seeing ghosts and knowing things and it totally weird to tell her not weird, like this was just weird. So she she absently called me
and doctor Powell she's explaining this. I did a follow up with her once she saw that tslup It with his happening, and then she said, and you would not believe it, like some of the kids are saying they go to this place called the hill, and on the hill they can learn this and learn that, And I thought what.
And then fully.
Third person was this minister from like a mega church in Arizona. I met him. He was very nervous to talk about this. He was writing his own book. He thought this was only in his congregation that he you know, again, it was a miracle that he alone was privy to.
I met him and then he was telling me a story about how one of his students would just met with another non speaker from another church in another state, and he's like, and they were talking about the Weirrees, saying when they're going through the phone, they started spelling to each other. Meet me at the Hill and he's like, do you know what that is? And I think I was stunned because now here's someone in Minnesota talking about Arizona,
Chicago and Atlanta. So after I had to go through a lot of Hill references to believe it myself, and now there's no doubt in my mind.
That's I can't wait to learn more about that.
Yeah, it's cool.
It's very frustrating, I think for a lot non speakers, because you want to do something and your body totally betrays you. You might want to enter a room instead you're leaving it. And the only time it seems like they're able to really like gather and communicate their true thoughts is through spelling. That mind body disconnect taught me a lot because, for instance, a Keel who we feature in episode two, he.
Didn't know who his body was.
And for a lot of people who need to be touched when they first learned spelling is because they don't know where their body is. A Kiell didn't know he had fingers. He had to be massaged over and over. I remember Houston when he first was spelling. He said he needed heavy boots so he knew where the ground was. And so you can imagine if you don't feel connected to your body to the point where you don't even think you have one, you're.
Living in the mental world. That consciousness is fundamental.
That makes even more sense now, I think it's.
Less about non speaking people. I don't think it has much to do with autism at all. I think it has to do with apraxia and not being connected to your body.
Yeah, that is completely Yeah, that makes so much more sense. When I was looking at studies on monk's brains, they found that when monks who are doing the deepest meditations, if they put their hand on a hot plate which most of us would touch and immediately take our hand back, that they were able to keep their hand on it because they're disconnected from the physical experience, so it didn't feel hot to them at all because they were so
removed from their physical state. And those studies have been improven and shown and just that idea of being so deep in meditation that you didn't feel heat, and I think people, you know, it's really interesting to think about Eastern traditions. There's a beautiful statement by C. S. Lewis that says, you don't have a soul, you are the soul, and you have a body and going to your consciousness.
Point that idea that because we live as if we are the body, Eastern traditions wouldn't argue that therefore we only know what the body knows. We only know our limits based on physicality. But for those of us that know we're not the body and that we're consciousness so much more as accessible and that's where you'll point around belief system and value system and everything else come in that I'll wait a minute, I'm not actually just limited by this.
Right absolutely, And I think that like when we understand that and praxia and the mind body disconnect, and that can help inform a lot of the confusion around spelling, you know, because certainly if you don't know where your body is when you're learning, it helps to touch. And that's why when people throw facility communication out because you're being touched, it's like no, if that's working for someone and they need pressure the whole time to know where their hand.
Is, put pressure on their hands so they can spell awesome.
Cool, Like let's assist people to get to their best selves and their whole you know. But yeah, the mind body disconnect then not knowing where your body is because non speakers say that over and over and over and over again that they're not living in their body. They don't feel their body, they don't have control over their body, and so so.
Then what is the reality. It's not the body reality.
It's a different reality, yes, And this is what we're all tuning into, this different reality that they're able to talk about as messengers because of a flight. Honestly, I think most of them feel very frustrated about the inability to control their body, but the gifts that come along with it. And John Paul when he said some I think Libby once asked him, like, you know, what about what do you love most about yourself and he was like, everything, you know. So I do think like that experience of
not being tethered to your body can be beautiful. It's just different from what we're seeing. We're seeing a body that's having a very difficult time managing in the world, but their experience is not bodily to the same degree.
Yeah. I was speaking to one of my friends the other day and he was he's very deep into AI, and he was explaining to me that if you looked at an extremely, extremely below average individual in terms of IQ, Einstein was only two point four more times intelligent than that person, and then if you look at AI, we can't even comprehend how intelligent AI is because AI is going to be is already one hundred times more intelligent than that, million times more intelligent, could be expansively ten
million times more intelligent than Ein's, which is bizarre to even experience and imagine, because how could someone be more intelligent and have a better IQ than Einstein. And it's just really interesting when you look at it from that dimension that I think we're already with AI experiencing something quite remarkable and quite beyond like it. It's quite phenomenal.
That we kind of take it as something that's to some degree becoming normalized, when it's really not that normal that there are going to be and just because we see it as computers in tech, but being able to understand us, being able to know our needs, being able to know what we want to hear. I've read so many articles with people now using AI as their therapist
and everything else and feeling so understood. But that's the same kind of curiosity and openness we have to have over here, of just being open to marvel at these incredible abilities. I don't know if that resonates or wrong.
I mean, no, I think it's fascinating. I mean, I think we can attach so much of our personal needs onto anything, you know what I mean. And AI is just all of this is converging at the same time. And that's what that's what's most interesting, is like AI
and like what that's making us question about consciousness. I think even like psychedelics and people's embrace of how that can help with mental health and explorations of consciousness and the trials are doing where people feel like they are certain there's more, you know, and that's happening with this exposure of what the non speakers are hoping to I think teach us alongside sudden interests and validation are uap
Like it seems like it's all converging at once. Yes, and we're just like in the water of it right now. Like I don't even think we realize how significant this moment is for humans and consciousness. It's a cool time to be alive.
How do we make sure that it's not made quiet and put down because I imagine that that's you know, a natural thing that's happened in the past as well.
Yeah, that it's been it's back down and just.
Yeah, because it's seen as scary, it's or people are like, oh this is bad or or it's you know, whatever is How do how do we make sure that we keep asking these questions?
And I think social media has changed everything because I think the scaffolding of control was always very powerful before, because it's like someone had the ability to silence you and no one would know that happen, Like you could be just quieted and not be able to your truth out. They'd steal your camera and it was done, you know. But I feel like or there just be a mass discredit,
you know, discrediting of someone. What's happening now with social media is you can get out of truth very quickly and find other people who agree and concur and thumb up it, and and it's much it's much more difficult to make someone seem bonkers, especially when there's a lot of people validating a truth.
If scientists and others in the community are open to wanting to go and be with the non speakers and be a part of this, how do we do and how does the general public do it in a way that isn't disrespectful? Isn't because I can imagine that testing and things could be exhausting for these individuals, the humans with kind of you know, this whole process is somewhat invasive of.
Yeah, I mean I get very nervous about that, and I feel like scientists and researchers, it's like you have your questions, but like just let's pause for a second,
you know. And one of the things that we've been talking about and trying to start a foundation for and put like profits that come in from the film or anything or donations to this foundation that maybe could try to open up centers in different states or cities where non speakers can go and learn to spell for free in an affordable way and have physical therapy, and parents can have respite care where they can bring their child here and they know they'll be well taken care of,
and the non speakers can have their physical and mental
and spiritual needs met. And then then only then it's like if there's an interest that one individuals like I do want to study Wales, then maybe like through these centers of scientists who marine biologists could apply and they have to learn how to spell, and they have to like really get vetted and be on the level of the non speakers, and then there could be like a way that maybe where they pay the nonspeedch wo or work with them and so that way it's equitable and
it's all centered on the non speaker and really working to fit into their world instead of asking them to be a square peg fitting into like the round.
Hole of our world.
And so I think we just have to approach it differently. The thing that makes me sick is the idea of someone being like I want to test on speakers, do this and do that, Like that is gross and I can't imagine. I don't think many families will I mean some very science minded people might, but like I know one of our individuals that is in our project like really wants to learn plant medicine.
How awesome.
But like, let's find a scientist who deeply cares and just doesn't want to like ask questions and cut and run, like pay the individual, you know, bring them into the fold, help with their education, you know. So there's a way to do it ethically and we just have to get there first.
How does that feel after thrown our years of work, I'm sure, like finally sharing it with the world and receiving those emails yourself and what's that experience being like.
I think the worst outcome for me, which would have been really would have been like if we were getting emails being like.
This isn't true, this isn't true.
But the opposite has happened, where it's so many parents who were like I always thought this was but you know, my wife didn't believe me, or husband didn't believe me, or bank like blank. And now like we're having open conversations and we're setting it to the nieces and nephews and uncle's nants and like that's really cool and it's just so beautiful I mean it's beautiful because I think
people are finding community. And MY biggest concern always is for people to live like a transparent whole life, like don't compartmentalize, don't lie in secret, just be all of you. And I think for non speaking individuals, they are able to now be all of themselves because so many more people are willing and able to see them and receive them. That is beautiful, Like there's no there's nothing that can compare to that.
And how has it impacted your personal or spiritual and consciousness journey of understanding yourself on a deeper level.
I mean, I believe all sorts of things I did in three and a half years ago. I certainly believe that consciousness is survives. I actually think consciousness is not local. I don't believe our body creates it. I mean I think we help and assist in that, and our memories and all those things work together. But I think we
are working with consciousness coming in from somewhere else. I certainly believe in things like precognition and siabilities and even mediumship abilities, stuff like that that I didn't that I dismissed before. Yeah, I mean, I'm forever changed you know, and it's cool. Like I have young kids, and it's cool watching how they're growing up with these things. I mean, they hear about it all the time. It's hearing the
zoom calls and it's just part of their life. Like I've saw my daughter playing barbies the other day and they were this is actually a few years back when I was still working on it, and they were divving up like, Okay, your barbies are doing this, and this is the identity of your barbies. My daughter goes and my two barbies are non speakers. And then her friend
is like, well, how are they going to talk? And she's like through telepathy and she's like, oh my gosh, that's great, you know, just watching it, like being part and parcel of you know, their world.
That was cool.
What's the wildest thought of yours they read when you didn't?
I mean, it was an embarrassing thought and I had no idea the extent and I'm not even going to say what it was. But we were sitting at a table and it was after a long Dave shooting. Doctor Powell was there, We had another neuroscientist there, I think Katie was there. Houston was there, and I remember I don't remember exactly what the thought was, but it was
enough that was like an embarrassing, silly thing. And all of a sudden, the second I thought it, Houston like laughed and like spit out his beer practically, and I'm like, oh my gosh, he heard my thought. And that was where I was like, wow, okay, like because when we were doing the selepathy test, it's one thing. But when you experience it over like a beer and you realize someone heard your thought and like laughed, that was and I'm like, okay, I gotta like clean it out again and clear it out.
Gosh, guy, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you really wanted to share or someone that's on your ow mind that you didn't get to speak on that you would like to share.
The final episode of the Selepathy Tapes, I gave the floor to speakers from all over the world, and I think the best lessons aren't there, And like one thing that I think about all time, as one of the non speakers said that kindness is the best way to evolve, and so I just want people to think about that. And when people are very afraid about you know, one thing you didn't ask about was like the fear about
reading thoughts. And I had to think about that a lot over the past few years, that why does that so scary to people? And I think it's scary because people don't maybe like the thoughts in their head, or it's too you know, they'd feel too exposed. But if we are capable of this, and we're being called maybe to like get to a place where this is a communication we're all capable of, then we're first called to like clean our own thoughts a little bit. And that's
easy to control. How you think about people, how you think about yourself, how you think about the world around you, the choices you're making, and if you are conscious about those thoughts all the time and making them pure and loving, it's not scary if someone's reading them, you know. So I think that, like I love that that kindness is the best way to evolve, because some nonspeakers are saying, hey, we are all capable of this, this is where we're
going to go. We all have to do that hard work of like becoming more loving kind individuals.
First, do you think it's possible that we will become capable of have the opportunity to become capable to communicate that way.
Many non speakers I've met have said that we are capable of that, and again I trust their insights more than I trust my own. I do think we're all capable of it. I've seen it turned on in teachers. I think it's all possible, and I think for those it's scary to take a look inside. Let that be a mirror, you know, And it's a beautiful thing because one non speaker and then I know it will end.
But like one non speaker once said that, look, if you say the word Thanksgiving, you've said the word Thanksgiving. But if I telepathically send it, you're given the football game on and your uncle pulling up and sleeping your childhood bed, and the smells and like your favorite candy and seeing this person and the smell of your mom's hair and like all the whole thing, And it's an experience that is so immensely beautiful and there's no sarcasm,
and there's no withholding, and there's no exaggerating. It's all just the pure And to me, it's like, Wow, what would happen if we were all living that way? So if we do get to a space where more of us are telepathically communicating. I think it's gonna be good for humanity, not bad.
If you knew what someone was thinking, how would you speak differently too, I think that's the other side. One side is being able to read and maybe someone cleaning their thoughts. But if I could see what you were thinking, how would I speak to you differently? Ho would I look at you differently? How would I connect with you differently? It would transform hopefully how we'd take care of each other as well.
It does totally.
And I've learned that just being around on speaker is making sure Like in my thoughts it's like, okay, like they're being read, so just make sure they're and then so the whole day you're empty. Actually it's like you're meditating in a way, like my keep my thoughts really empty. And I actually find even like directing it's with them is easier to do that. Like you're just empty out and you feel better at the end of the day.
You feel great at the end of the day. You're living in the moment because most of our thoughts are what just happened or what's in the future, And when you're just empty, You're like totally present, and so that's the GFT where I'm always like being with non speakers, aware that of my thoughts and just trying to have none.
That's beautiful, the beautiful way to beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. Kay. It has been so fascinating talking to you. Honestly, I think the work that you're doing is so inspiring, and truly, there's been very little that I think we've had to be curious about for a long time when it comes to this space, and I really feel like you've brought something to the Ford that we can all be spiritually curious about. And the questions that you're asking is so
intriguing to me. Then, questions that I believe we all should be looking for the answers. I think for a long time we've thought about physical questions like how do we make the body stronger? And how do we sleep better? And how do and those are really important questions. I stand by that we do that a lot on this show. But similarly, I think we're all asking questions of like why do we exist? And why am I here? And you know, do I really understand the abilities that I have?
And especially for those that have been seen as like you said, that they're not in there to realize that there is a purpose, there is a value, there is a gift. There is of course there is already but inherently, but there's so much more that we don't know. And so I'm so grateful for your time and energy, not just today, but for the last three and a half years of you dedicated your life to this purpose and for sharing it with me so openly and graciously with
me and my audience. And I'm sure everyone if they're not already listening to the Telepathy tapes, which I'm sure they are, we'll go back and listen, or we'll listen for the first time and help pass it on. How much can people support or connect if they want to be a part of this work with you and encourage you, or even want to write to you. How can they get in touch or how can they follow along?
Yeah, I mean we are on all the social media
at the telep ofy tapes. I would encourage people, though, I mean my biggest ask is please, like, just presume competence if you see a nonspeaker, if you meet a non speaker, if you work with non speakers, they are in there, their human beings help them get on boards, learn to spell, and if you are interested in getting engaged with no speakers, you could become a spelling to communicate partner by going to s to see or spelling to communicate or spellers method like just go look into
this because we need more spellers. I mean, that's the biggest ask. Is just that everyone starts assisting them and meeting them and presuming competence.
That's everything to me.
I hope we can stay in tied so that I can ask you more questions here, updates, and continue this conversation offline as well. I feel like there's so many great spiritual conversations to be had and shared and I can't wait to see where this works goes. So here as a supporter and cheerleader and look forward to learning lots more.
Thank you, thank you for having me on.
Thank you so much. If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success, and the seek to genuinely loving what you do. If you're trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you. Just because I like it, That doesn't give it any value, like as an artist,
if you like it, that's all of the value. That's the success comes when you say I like this enough for other people to see it.