Simon Sinek: Not Every Friendship Is Meant to Last—And That’s Okay! (THIS is How to Know If It’s Time To Walk Away From Adult Friendships That No Longer Fit)

I'm speaking about the one and only Simon Sinek, best selling author, speaker, founder of the Optimism Company, known for his groundbreaking work on leadership and purpose. Simon's Ted Talk on the concept of Why has been viewed over sixty million times, and Simon's books, including Start with Why Leaders Eat Last and The Infinite Game have shaped how leaders

inspire action and build impactful organizations. Simon also hosts his own amazing podcast called A Bit of Optimism where I Got to be a guest, where he talks to people who inspire him about life, love, and leadership. Please welcome to On Purpose, Simon Sink Simon. I'm so happy to have you here.

to the monks, and he said to all the monks, he was like, you have to read this book. This is important reading. And the jory of the monks were like, well, it's not scripture, so who cares? Like it was like this kind of not the best monk attitude if I read it, very very unmonkey, But that happens too. I read it and it was life changing, and it was life changing, not because I was starting a business or because I was a leader. It was actually life changing

from a life perspective. So I applied Start with Why to my life and that was remarkable for me. So I wanted to share that story.

is about human beings. It's about who we are as human beings. It's how we relate to other human beings and how we connect with other human beings. It's fundamentally about relationships. That's what the work is about, which is one of the reasons I think it resonates and continues to resonate over time, and why I'm not really threatened by AI or anything like that, because it really is about this. It's the ability to make eye contact with

somebody and how to connect with somebody. And so I hope that if somebody is a student of my work, they're on the same journey that I'm on, because all

my work is semi autobiographical. You know, the life they're going to be living is a life filled with support and love, where they'll still have ups and downs, and they'll still have their struggles, but that they will feel equipped to take on those struggles with greater confidence and greater calm and have that same skill set to do for their friends, that they can be a rock for their friends who are going through difficult things as well, even if they don't necessarily know the solutions.

that's above a five, it's about something else. Okay, And if I'm giving somebody relationship advice, I can say, if you get a response that that's above a five, it's about something else. You know, Like it's always the same thing because fundamentally, it's just human beings trying to get along with human beings. Now, obviously the contexts are different, the goals are different, but fundamentally the breakdowns and communications, the repair that needs to be done, it's all very

similar stuff. It's listening, it's how to give and receive feedback.

It's how to have an effective confrontation, it's how to hold space. It's all the same. And it's always funny to me because you know, I'll work with every industry. I've worked with every single industry, and they all think they're problems are unique and all their problems are the same.

to tell people that. I was like, wait a minute, I just went across the world, and like you're saying, you went to every industry and you saw that. Why is it? Then? Belonging an identity feels like it needs to be found in that which is different. Right, we find a different football club that gives us a sense of identity, we find I'm in a swim club or a run. I like nonfiction books. I like fiction books, Like what is then the dissecting of that for finding identity,

belonging community. Where does that kind of come in?

you give me a little love. When I'm on the stage where the Americans is, you know, it's all it's all right there. What you see is what you get. But we can't belong to everything because then there's no such thing as belonging. And it's not sufficient to say, well, we're all human beings. I mean, you know, we're tribal animals and our sense of safety comes from feeling safe in the tribe. And so the question is, well, what

are the definitions of the tribe? And it can come in many different ways, and we can be members of multiple tribes simultaneously. You mentioned some of them. You know, I like this football club. I'm a member of this church, this company, this group of friends. I have this common interest, you know, whether it's a run club or comic con or whatever it is. And we look, we look for

those common things so that we feel psychologically safe. And the quickest way to feel psychologically safe is somebody who looks like me, worships like me, acts like me, has the same hobbies as me. Those are those are superficial and those are easy, and the real close memberships come when we can share values. But it makes perfect sense why we would want to make things smaller and smaller, you know, it's it's it's remember the Doctor SEUs book,

the Sneeches. It's like, we want, we will want to belong and the easiest way, the best way to belong is if we're different from from them. You know, then I'm belonging because I'm different to you, but I'm like them.

of the leadership. Because one is easy to measure and one is hard to measure, right, not that it doesn't exist, just hard to measure. And so the same thing. I

can more easily have a sense of what I stand for if I can see what I am against. Yeah, exactly, and the nuance there is. Yes, common enemies are valuable, But when it becomes what I would call more healthy, is I know what I believe, I know what I stand for, and I can see what's standing in the way.

I'm not particularly anti this group. What I'm for is on the other side of it wall, and so I don't necessarily want to hurt you or harm you, but I need to find a way to get through this, to get to what's on the other side of the wall. Whereas if you don't have a sense of purpose, if there is no cause, then I don't know what I stand for. I just have the wall, and it's easily to rail against the wall. But the problem is what

happens if you get through it. And we've seen this time and time again, which is very easy to rally against something and then you destroy it or you win or whatever it is, and then you're like, we didn't think we'd get here where. When you're purpose driven, you always know what's in the distant future, even though there are obstacles along the way.

And it's interesting because even though and I don't think we necessarily talk about it in that way to your friend, Like you don't wake up and call your friend and go, I have no purpose today, Like I don't think people

really do that on a daily basis. I think people wake up feeling brain fog and exhausted and overworked and burnt out, Like that's the language that we use, but they're connected, yeah, right, Like that's kind of the space in which you sit, which is recognizing that well, we're dealing with all of these things, but they're actually coming from a lack of all of this.

In fact, Heill, she came on the podcast and explained this to me. It was amazing, which is she was in the military and she's got her troops and there was an issue with burnout and people were exhausted, they

were struggling, and they all said, I'm burnt out, and they didn't know what to do. And there's nothing they could do because the tempo of the operations, the ups tempos, was intense and it's not slowing down. So what's a leader supposed to do when the team says, I'm burnt out and I can't keep up right. So I'm not even sure what her motivation was. I have to go back and listen, but I think maybe it's because the way she felt. She simply asked the room, how many

of you are feeling lonely? And the number of hands that went up was astonishing, and she realized it wasn't the ups tempo, it was the sense of loneliness that was giving the feeling of burnout and the feeling of overwhelm. And so the way she dealt with people's burnout was not by giving them vacations or giving them days off. What she did was she did the hard work of helping them not feel alone, checking in with them as

human beings. And I think people's burnout started to subside when somebody was doing the hard work of making sure they knew that they were they weren't alone in this world.

wife and I don't live anywhere near our family. You don't live that close to your family, So that's kind of broken over time. Places of faith some people have them, but they're not as popular.

have to go? Or where do you go when you see these big symbols of belonging kind of disconnected?

And so there were these There was a sense of community, and there were many communities to which we were able to partake, with with whom we were able to partake. And then things change. The world changes for various reasons. The bowling clubs went away, church membership declined, don't really know the neighbors anymore, and all of a sudden we started putting pressure on work to fill all the voids.

And now I want my work to give me a sense of values and purpose, and I want work to provide my social life, and I want work to provide my sense of community, my sense of belonging. And now let's throw politics in. I want my work to match my politics as well. And it's not a good thing or a bad thing. It just as it is. And most companies are ill equipped to even know what to do there. You can't push back because it's the world

we live in. And so companies now actually do have to make some decisions where and how they want to play. And we do have to offer some sense of belonging community instead of values, because that's where else are people going to get it? And when you ask about friends, you know, I find friendship and the concept of friendship super fascinating. You know, if you ask most people are you a good friend? Most people say I'm a good friend.

And if you peel the onion just one layer, you find out that most of us are not great friends. Right would you cancel on a friend for a meeting? Would you cancel on a meeting for a friend? Oh, but my friend would understand. You know, we sort of take our friends for granted that way. If your marriage is struggling, what do you do? You're good for couples counseling because you don't want to just throw the relationship away. We've invested this amount. We're going to do the work first.

And if we can't do the work, then okay, but we're going to do the work. Why aren't there friendship counselors? Why is there no friendship therapy? I saw it happened just two weeks ago. Two people who defined each other as best friends. They talked every day something happened. They both blame each other, but there was there was a fight. They haven't talked since, and I've talked to them and said what's going on. They're like, the friendship is over?

And I was like, well, isn't it worth What about the friendship leading up to it? How can you just walk away from it? Maybe I was wrong, maybe they were never my friend, which of course is complete nonsense, you know. And it was just so upsetting to me, the fragility of the friendship and how we treat friendships so differently, and the skills of good friendship are the

same skills. We've talked about it before. Relationships relationships are the same skills as marriage or any kind of romantic relationship, you know. Do your friends know how to hold space for you when you're struggling? Do your friends know how to listen to you when you just need somebody to listen, not fix? And I mean, I'll tell you from personal experience. I was accused by many of my friends that I

was a terrible listener. And I would say, you do know what I do for a living, right, you do know, right' I'm a great list a professional. I'm a great listener. And then I took this listening class, and what I learned was that I am a fantastic listener with people I will never talk to again for the rest of my life. But it came to my intimate relationships and my close friends terrible, terrible, terrible, And just because I had the skills, I wasn't applying them to the place

that was actually more important than anywhere else. The first thing I did after I got out of this class, I called all my close friends and I was like, I just found out I'm a bad listener, and I owe you an apology. They're like, yeah, what took you so long? Right? But the point is is the skills are there, and sometimes we actually are good at applying them in different contexts and circumstances at work or whatever,

and we're junk at applying them to our friends. And the irony is is for you to have a successful romantic relationship or a successful marriage or personal relationship, you need to have good friends around you because when you have stress in that relationship, you've got to have a safe space that you can go vent or talk it about,

talk about it, or get advice or get perspective. Somebody will slap you around and be like, that's your fault. Right when things go wrong at work, you're struggling with a colleague, you're struggling with a project, you're struggling with your boss, you're struggling with you know, whatever it is, you better have good friends who can give you perspective, slap you around and tell you know that's on you. But then where do we go when we're having friend issues?

You know, and you start to realize we just treat friends like these disposable things, which I find so upsetting because the joke is to have a successful marriage, to have success at work, to be able to manage stress in our lives. Friends, friends are They're the ultimate biohack. They fix depression, they fix anxiety, they fix an ability to cope with stress, even the obsession with longevity that's

going on right now. You know, people talk about blue zones, and you know Dan Buner's work, and everybody talks about their Mediterranean diet. Now they walk everywhere, and but there's very little talked about how they have dinner with each other every single night that they are convening with friends all the time. You know, we don't talk about that.

in all of the ways you mentioned. And when I look at me, someone who was less close with my family or my family unit, even though me and my sister are good friends and my mum is too, my friends became my family. So I'm very focused on developing community beyond family because that's what I've always had to

rely on. And so it's interesting when you look at that, because you're like, all right, well, is it that those of us who have family don't invest in friendships as much because we don't need them.

those who have and those who don't. Like if you go to sort of a poorer neighborhood, people sit on the front porch and their kids play in the front, and they raise each other's kids. And as soon as you start having any kind of wealth, you move to the back and put up you put up fences and you have to raise your own kids. And you know, the idea that the community looks at for the kids is actually correct. Like that's how how we sort of work together. So I don't think it's either or. I

think it's a both. I mean, I don't know if you've ever did you ever have the chance to go to Dharavi in Mumbai?

you can get a sense of population density. Obviously the population goes up during the day during work, but you can get a sense of the density over twenty six square miles. Okay, Daravi is one square mile and there's about seven hundred and fifty to one million people that

live there. They're not one hundred percent suor over the exact number, so you can just imagine the intensity and the density, which is why when disease shows up, it just it runs rampant, right because it's just so close and you walk around Derrivey and it's it's not sanitary, and there's like live electric wires hanging down and if

you touch one by accident, you're a gonner. And kids are just running around by themselves or with their friends because the community looks out for them. You know. It is an amazing feeling of looking out for each other. And when you talk about belonging, and because we do look, we look for it. When when we look for things to join and we push our kids to join things. So they have these these friends, and it's easier for

kids because they're at school. Right. So kids go to school, they're about the same age, they have the same similar stresses, the same teachers, the same homework, same same same, same, same, same, same, and so common experience is really the same stresses of adolescents and growing up, and like they have very common experience. It's very easy to connect as soon as you leave school.

Still pretty easy because your entry level with all the other entry levels, all bumbling and fumbling trying to make a career. And then all of a sudden it starts to separate. Your friends started different ages and now you don't have common experience, and I think friendship you Actually, it's more difficult as we get older, not less difficult.

wait a minute. Of course, we both talked about football, both grew up in some part of London, like, had similar types of friends. It makes sense, and it makes sense, but it didn't register because I'd been interviewing Americans for so long.

say you're in Paris. You're standing on the Paris Metro and you hear an American accent and you, hey, where

you guys from. You're from Michigan, We're from California, and you're like best friends. Right, Because when you don't feel like you belong, you look for anything that gives you some sense of safety. Somebody who understands a little bit about how you grew up, a little bit of your perspective,

even though it's back at home, it's entirely different. And the biggest joke is the level of trust that family from Michigan will be like, oh, you've got to try this restaurant, and you'll turn to your wife and be like, honey, we've got to go to this restaurant because strangers who don't live here told us it's really good. But if a stranger from Paris, did you got to go to this restaurant, you' be like, I don't even know who you are. Why would I trust you recommendation?

like us, sound like us, live like us. Whatever. It is, right, and that can be based on anything, but it's superficial, which means the connections aren't necessarily there, and once you're in the neighborhood, it kind of disappears anyway, Right, you ask the question right at the beginning. You know, somebody who sort of applied my work, what woul their life look like? Well, this is what happens when you learn

to start with why. Because when you learn to stop thinking about your life in terms of what I do, what I look like, what I sound like, what I you know, all of these superficial things, and you start thinking of yourself in terms of who I am, why I'm on this planet, what are my values? And more important, you learn the language of how to express those things, you will more efficiently and more quickly find people who actually view the world and live the world like you.

So and this is you can do it in a personal context, you can do in a business context. And I'll give you a real life example. So when I first learned my why, I didn't know how to tell people about it, And so I stopped asking the question what do you do? What do you do? I would tell people what I believed? Right, what do you do? Is really easy? You know, I'm a doctor, I'm a lawyer, I'm a consultant, whatever, Right, And you're sitting on a plane and somebody says what do you do? And you go, oh,

I'm a doctor. Unless they need a doctor, that nobody cares, right, And so I started saying what I believed. And it took a probably one hundred, one hundred and fifty tries of me bumbling and fumbling different ways of saying it so that people weren't look at me like I had three heads, right, and eventually I had the perfect elevator pitch.

So I'd sit on a plane and you know this is pre internet, you know, we actually talk to people, and somebody would say, what do you do And I would say, I teach leaders and organizations how to inspire people. The people who believe what I believe would say, inspire cool, how do you do that? We're talking about me for the next tw and a half hours. We're connecting. We're becoming friends, I mean instantaneously, right, We like, really get along.

The people who don't believe what I believe would say what kind of companies. It was a it was a filter instantaneously because I was presenting my beliefs and those relationships. Some of them I made friends on planes, and some of my friends today I believe it or and I met them on random flights years ago. And it's one of the reasons that we connect with some professions more than others.

the opportunity to serve those who serve others. They kind of live their lives very similarly. So the minute we show up or like, gotcha, you know, and so there's at least a common thing I don't necessarily like them all. They don't necessarily a like me, but there's a good foundation to make make a real friendship. And so I think the opportunity to understand one of one's own values and beliefs and to say them often, you know. I mean, you know, when I blurb a book, for example, I'm

really sort of strict about it. Like if somebody asked me to blurb their book, I always insist that the way they list me is it's Simon Sinek optimist and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, all the things I've done after I tell you who I am, because if you cut that list off after who I am, I don't care what goes after it. And the number of people like author New York Times best selling post podcasts, blah blah blah, which is fine, but that's not who

you are. There's just stuff you do. They're just make anybody connect with you. They just go, oh, I know the podcast, Oh I read the book, you know. And our identity doesn't come from our credibility. Our identity comes from our beliefs.

I relate. I so relate to what you're saying, because I never set out to be a social media creator, or to be an author or to be a podcaster. To me, these are just vehicles. They're just exactly all mats of district, exactly mediums. They've got nothing to do.

I am. It's just something I did. And even if I'm good at it's okay. But there are other new ways. And so, you know, the idea of reinvention, I think is sort of a misnomer, right, because I'm not reinventing. I'm just taking a different route. I'm just sitting there with a map, going, well, that road's going slower, why

don't we try that road over here. I'm not reinventing. The reinvention comes in the car I'm driving, or the or the destination. And you know, my destination is fixed to the world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. There's only one destination. How I get there wherever the

best root is. And so I think that you see it a lot when people get really good at something, they're very afraid to change it because they confuse the destination with the root. They confuse the goal with the journey. Even though everybody knows all the tropes. You know, it's not about the destination. It's about the journey, like we all know that. But and I understand because the skills set or the thing that did is what got me to where I am, and to change or move away

from that is very scary. And it's only scary if you don't have a grounding and why you do what you do. Because as soon as you know why, it's really easy. Yeah, because you start to see the hierarchy that the why is more powerful and more important than whatever route you chose or chose you because it could have just been a sign of the times.

what you're committed to. You just realize that's just not where it's going to be disseminated, and you can continue to try and find a new place for it to be destributed. Whereas when you think, oh, this is a rejection of my idea, you actually let go of the idea that you so deeply carried.

that that's not going to go well. Yeah, right, And so do I go home depressed or do I say, well, maybe basketball is not the best way.

the outcome is going to be? And if the answer is yes, you stick with it. If it's not worth it, if the sacrifice no longer feels and that's the only standard. Does it feel There's nothing to do on a piece of paper, there's no pros and cons. Right, If the sacrifice feels worth it, you keep going in. The sacrifice no longer feels worth it, you walk away. That's healthy.

get to define what additive means. Additive can means you fill me up, you inspire me. Additive can mean I just have a freaking rock and good time with you. Additive can mean you give good advice, you define outever you want. But I think on balance, our friends should be additive. They should contribute something to our lives and to our works being. And it absolutely happens for not necessarily bad reasons, where for whatever reason, you just outgrow

each other. Sometimes it's just the natural ups and downs and weirdnesses of life. You know, it's easy to be friends when you're local. Your career takes you across the country, around the world just harder, and those friendships sometimes fall away.

Nothing personal. Sometimes we outgrow people. That absolutely happens. I had a friend who we would hang out a lot. We were friends. We would get together, we would talk about how much we hated our bosses and what we hated about work, and I would try and make changes in my life, get new jobs, take myself on, become a better leader, and we would keep getting together, and

his problems were always the same. And you know, a couple of years go by and I'm realizing I'm having the same conversation with somebody who, for whatever reason, doesn't want to take themselves on and doesn't want to listen, and had advice for everybody but couldn't take it. And you realize, I can't be in a friendship if I can't serve my friend. Yes, I want to get from my friends, of course, but I also want to give

to my friends. Right, there's tremendous joy in being able to hold a friend up, oh, you know, and for a friend to deny me the opportunity to serve because they're to fill in the blank, to listen, take advice, you know, admit any kind of weakness. At some point, we just drifted apat you know, I just stopped calling and that's okay.

and that's fine, and graduated, right. I learned what I could learn, and now it's time to go. But if the relationship, if it's worth fighting for and you're doing the work and maybe it's just not working, then I think then you have a hard conversation and you sit down, just like a divorce or leaving a job, like we're trying this and I'm struggling and I don't know. I don't know if it's worth anymore. Can we end this?

act of unbelievable passive aggression. And some people it's you have to remember what you're doing to somebody when you do that, which is especially if they can't look on the socials and see that you're fine. There's this horrible sense that something's happened to you, like if you got into a car accident or something, the result would be the same, and so the panic of are you okay

comes first. Then they may go on social and discovery you're fine. They see you out at you know, out at the club or whatever it is, and then you reach out and they don't reach back. Now, so you've gone through the panic of what's happened. Then you realize they're fine, You realize you're being ghosted. Then the overwhelming sense of what did I do? The guilt, the no

you get no closure, You give no closure. You allow someone to chew in their own fears and insecurity and anxieties, which is debilitating and cruel because you lack the courage to say I don't know how to say this. Yeah, I'm struggling in this friendship. I don't know what to do. You know again, that's different from friends that just naturally

drift apart. And so I think you're right. I think one of the things we have to learn to do is how to have difficult conversations with our friends, even if it means, like I think, at least give somebody a breakup. Yeah, you know, a breakup is at least there's still pain, there's still anxiety, there's still you know, mourning, but at least give somebody the closure to do with dignity.

You and I do this, you know, a lot, and we fail daily, you know, and it's thrown in our face. I thought you knew how to like I do. But I'm struggling right now, clearly because I'm hurt, because my feelings are hurt, and I'm lashing out and being defensive interrupted you because I'm hurt, and that's not right. But it's messy, and so you know, one of the things that you can easily accuse both of us of is

sort of oversimplifying all of this stuff. And we do oversimplify it to make the case and hopefully share some lessons that we've stumbled upon over the course of our careers. But it's still hard, and it's still messy, and it's still imperfect, and that's kind of beautiful. I think that makes people beautiful. I just had this conversation with somebody today, you know, like compare that to AI right. Let's say you have a fight with your wife. You want to

get it right. Hey, chat GPT, can you tell me what I have to say to get this right? And chat GPT, which has been trained with all the best therapy everything, this thing's a PhD, will give you the exact right thing to say. And you go and say to your wife you memorize it, and you say to your wife exactly what chatcheeb he told you. And she goes, thank you, my good, thank you. And then she finds the script in your drawer and she said, did you

get this some chatchebt. Yeah, did you memorize it? Yet she's going to be angry because there's nothing heartfelt about it. It's hollow, it's not and she would rather you bumble and fumble and do it wrong, but at least be yourself and be it authentic. Can you imagine giving a one hundred percent chatgebt written speech at a wedding, best speech ever, and then somebody says, oh my god, that

speech was amazing. How'd you write it? Like no, chat gbt wrote it for me, you know, And that's just the feeling of.

One is handmade. It is imperfect. It is gorgeous versus the thing that comes off of machine. It looks the same as all the other things that come up a machine. It is perfect. It's fine. I like it, love it. Yeah, And I think we forget that in this day and age of incredible technology that can solve all the problems for us and answer all the questions for us. It's all there right, Like therapists should be afraid because Chatchybet

can do it. But to be able to sit like this, convene, feel someone staring at you with love, to feel to cry with someone and have them cry with you, you and I have both welled up just because the other person is welling up with us, and to feel a person connect with you in your pain, to hug someone and not want to let go. You know the rule at Disney, the Disney rule for hugging.

a wonderful boyfriend. They're great couple, and they were saying, when we hug, we hug for it. I don't remember what the number was, thirty seven seconds, you know, sixteen seconds, whatever the numbers. And I'm like, oh, that's okay. Why that number they go because that's the amount of time it takes for oxytocin to release, and so when we hug, you know, we hug for this period of time to give each other the oxytocin rush because we love each other.

I'm like, Okay, weird, but okay, I'll go I'll go with it. You know, I'm sure the science is correct. Somebody studied it, you know. You know. I saw her in the hallway and I was like, hey, how are you And she's like great, and she comes in for the hug and we're hugging and I sort of stop and I sort of like pull back a little, and I'm like, I have to ask you. Are you counting? She said yes. I said, I appreciate it, but let me show you something. Yeah, okay, I want to just

show you something. Stop counting. Please, don't don't count. You're human, I'm human. Our bodies already know how to do this. Stop counting. Just feel and then you let me know when the oxytosins ares flong. So let's do this hug again. Okay, So let's hug and we start hugging, and in a few seconds, I don't know how many, Maybe it was slightly more, maybe it was slightly less. I have no idea. At some point we felt unbelievably connected. I mean we could both feel it. And I said to her, do

you feel that, she goes. Yeah, I'm like, I'm feeling it too. I think the oxytosin is flowing. And I'm like, wasn't that nicer. We're just allowed for it to happen when it happens, as opposed to applying the science. Ye science,

somebody studied it and said it that doesn't mean you should count it. It just means it takes a little bit. Yeah, that's all it means. Yeah, a hug for longer, Just hug for a little Let's just hug for a lot, don't worry, right, Yeah, And it's this is our metrics obsessed, metrics obsessed world. Like everybody's obsessed so much deep sleep they gotten, how much rem they got and how many ey its like. But there's also all of the I find it ironic, right, all of these data obsessed people

data obsessed about you know. And before anybody gives me shit because I'm wearing an orderring, it haven't I haven't charged it in two years.

drink a glass of wine? You know, did it affect my rem that the data also shows that people who obsess about the data actually suffer more stress than the people who don't. Absolutely, And yet that's the funniest data point of all.

of that means anything in that sense. It's your taste because you had to feel it, and that was what made the difference. It wasn't the Michelin stars or the rating or whatever it was, It was your feeling it and we've lost that ability in a world where we're counting on everyone else and everything else to tell us if we've done it for long enough, short enough, have we lifted for that long enough, you've lost the ability to actually feel like I was talking to my doctor today.

I was saying, Hey, I'm not sure about this whole one hundred and fifty grams of protein intake, Like I'm just not feeling good, Like you just don't feel good. That's a lot, that's not even as much you meant to do, like your body weight in protein. And I've tried, I've tried everything, but it's like I don't feel good when I do it. So either, Yes, my digestion may not be strong enough, it may need to be strengthened, but at this point of my current strength, it doesn't.

it feels pretty gross if you do it too often. Right, and so there's also data on this, which is people who stress about eating dessert, the cortisol released from the

stress of eating the dessert is more harmful to your body than the dessert, right, and so, like, I think you're right, which is where why we were disconnecting from our bodies to the point where we don't even trust our bodies to know what's right for our bodies. I mean functional medicine. This is a large part of functional medicine,

which is your body already knows. Your body knows how to heal itself, so all you have to do is protect the body, you know, Like I and I love these things, Like what are you doing, I'm doing a cleanse, So you're you're drinking lemon juice and cayenne pepper for a week, you know, and you're doing a cleanse. What are you doing while I'm cleaning. I'm cleaning my body

of toxins. I'm like, that's what your liver and kidney do as long as your liver and kidneys are healthy, Like, you're good, you know, and so your body already knows how to get bad things out of it, Your body already knows how to fight disease, your body already knows how to do these things. The only thing you have to do is look after your body and trust your gut, right literally and figuratively, especially with the hugging, especially.

we know, and that goes right back to friendship. We've all been in relationships that suck energy from us and we feel like we have to like keep going because I don't know, we've been friends for a bunch of years, so time is the only bond. You don't actually fill each other up anymore. You know, people grow up. You were a different person than you were five years ago. I'm a different person than I was five years ago, hopefully better. I definitely know there's some skills that I've got.

I'm definitely a better friend. I'm a better leader, I'm a better boyfriend. Like I worked on those things, you know, and I'm better at it. You know what it's like. It's like, you know, for a lot of us, we left home when we were eighteen, and we kept growing up. We went to school, we got a job, and we kept learning and growing and taking ourselves on. But our parents knew us up until we were eighteen, and then

they missed the new growth. And then you come home and your parents are treating you like you're eighteen, and you're like I'm not. We say stupid things like I'm not a cute anymore, but they only know you as the eighteen year old. They've missed all the growth. And that sometimes happens where we're growing at different paces, or we grow and somebody else chooses not to and that's fine. But we know people differently.

What I've learned is the people when everything goes right and you want to just brag, like, dude, I just want an award. I just made a bunch of cash. I just I'm a frickin hero, I'm the smartest person

in the room. That number of people that you can call is even smaller, true, And I just love the fact that there's more vulnerability in wanting to toot your own horn and ask a friend to hold space with no judgment, no jealousy, and no envy, and that number of friends that I can call and be like, I'm a frickin rock star and I just needed to tell somebody about how great I am and how proud I am,

and that friend will gush and glow and cheer. And I remember a friend of mine called me and something amazing happened in his life, and like he didn't know who he could call because he didn't want to sound like he was bragging but to me, but he needed to get it out. And I just sat on the phone. I was like a proud parent. I was glowing. And you realize that chemicalist seratonin that when you see somebody walk across the stage at graduation and accept their diploma.

Like their bodies are being consumed by serotonin with the feeling of pride. That's what seratonin gives you, the feeling of pride as they're graduating. You know that amazing feeling. But what we don't talk about is the parents and the friends and the family sitting in the audience also have serotonin pouring through their bodies and they feel the same pride for the person on the stage. Oh wow, right, And so when you have a friend that you can brag to and they share in your pride, both of

you are coursing. Your veins are coursing with serotonin, and it is a pro social experience. In other words, it is making you even closer your ability to share the vulnerability of success, giving somebody else the opportunity to share in your pride. You're actually not bragging to them, that's not what's happening. You're both firing on serotonin. I felt the same pride, joy and excitement that my friend was feeling.

And when I hung up the phone, I was in such a great mood because my friend had an amazing success.

of pride from their child walking across the stage, because all the sacrifices of raising my kid. Now not everybody who knows my kid is not pouring with serotonin. It's the ones who earned it from the years of investing in the friendship, in the relationship. And that's what you miss in all these shortcuts. That's what we miss in all of this AI stuff. You don't get to earn those feelings, and those feelings are the best feelings in the world. And all those feelings do is make you healthier.

The more oxytocin and serotonin you have in your body, you're less likely to die from heart tosease, you're less likely to get many cancers, you're less likely to get diabetes. In other words, friendship and the hard work of friendship and earning that oxytocin and earning that serotonin keeps you healthy. And then we go back to the chocolate cake and the exercise of the doctors, and you start to realize the healthiest thing I can do is not the diet.

The healthiest place I need to apply my willpower is not on how long I'm working out, but it's how much time, effort, and energy and presence I give to my friends.

when you were saying this, which I love. There on this conversation is two examples. One person, and these are people who are really close. This is not like some fake friendship, really close. One of them's going through a miscarriage, the other one is expecting a baby, and the person of the miscarriage is feeling bad because they're a miscarriage.

They're feeling bad because they can't celebrate their friend's wine, and they're now feeling bad that they don't even want to be around their friend because their friends are actually expecting And now that friend's feeling guilt because they're having a baby, and they're like, well, how do we share this with that person who's just lost a baby? And it's real, right, Like it's really real. And this applies to people getting married before you The kids one is probably the most

one of the most dream forms of it. But if people getting married, people getting engaged.

there's a little bit of anger. I mean, there's all kinds of feelings, and feelings are messy and they slow, and you know, and the other one's success or achievement or in this case, pregnancy just reminds me of what I'm going through. It makes it just makes it feel worse.

I don't want to be reminded right now. And it's kind of like when something bad happens in someone's life, you know, sometimes we don't do anything because we don't know what to say, and we don't want to say the wrong thing, and so sometimes that's the best thing to say. Hey, I don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing, but I want you to know I love you. I can't imagine what you're going through and it must be the worst thing

in the world. I'm here when you need me. Take the space you need.

I don't know what to say, and there's no rules, there's no right thing to say, and we don't know what state somebody else is in. And even the friend who is who had the miscarriage saying I love you, please understand, I'm just struggling. I love you. I just need a little bit of space. I will promise I will reach out soon. I love you, and it just opens up a space to say I love you too. I understand, you know, it's just a human moment. And I think what we have to do is like we

try and come up with the right answers. What's the right thing to say? When this there's no right thing to say? And some people will handle it differently than others, and some people will go into deep sadness, and some people go into anger, and some people will be avoidant, and some people will bury themselves and pretend, I mean like there's no right And so what I've learned is instead of trying to guess, is a just say what I am feeling, which is I don't know what to say, Mike.

Let me express my confusion, let me put out something and be there like when you're ready, please I'm here, which is kind of like saying I love you. And sometimes to ask. So I have a friend who called me and said I'm struggling. I said, so, do I go into solution mode because I know what to do, I know exactly what's going on, or do I go into the no, I got to hold space. This is what friends do. They hold space for friends in need.

And so I just said, what do you need. Do you need me to hold space or do you mean to offer you some ideas? And then they said I think right now, I just need you to hold space. I'm like, okay, I will climb into the mud with you and I'll sit there for you with you, and when you're ready, you tell me. I think I'm ready to get out now and be like, oh hey, I got some ideas and a you can ask. You can ask for guidance if you don't know, as opposed to run, I guess and be if somebody gets it wrong, you

can tell them. Yeah. The reverse happened to me. I was in a bad, bad place and I called somebody where I just needed them to listen. And I called her up and I was like, I just I'm having a really hard week and can I just I need And then this happened, and then this happened and I'm feeling this and this happened and she went into fix it mode and it made me feel worse because I just need to feel heard in that moment and it was well intentioned, but I was getting angry. I could

feel myself getting angry. I feel out myself getting frustrated, and I simply said, can I just interrupt you. I know it's well intentioned. What I need right now, I just need you to just listen. I'm not angry, please and thank you so much. What I need right now is please just listen. That's all I need. And she was like, oh, I'm so sorry, and you can reset. I'm so sorry, Please go ahead, thank you. Very few of us are experts, and even the experts bungle it

all the time. And I think the just trying to say how you actually feel, telling people what you need in the moment you need it, and asking for what you need in the moment you need it right, that combination much can bumble through it all. It won't always be fun, but it's a good start. Yeah, And you don't need any PhD skills.

better than saying nothing. And they're saying something, part speak your intention, like that's that's what I feel like. It's like when I'm sharing my confusion and I'm sharing my feelings and I'm scared to share them because they're messy. Going back to your earlier point, being human is messy, and you're right, sometimes I get a message like that too. And I'm like, I don't really know what to say, and not saying anything is way worse than saying, hey,

I'm really sorry. I'm here. If you need me, let me know.

goes back to the ghosting. It's my fear of discomfort that's making it worse for somebody else. Yeah, you know. And it goes back to what the definition of a leader is, right. A leader is the person who accept the awesome responsibility to see those around us rise. It's about caring for people, right, And it's a very leadery thing to do to just be the person who says, I don't know, but here it is. Yeah.

and I know it's revealing of my own issues. It has nothing to do with you, and I know it's something I'm dealing with, but I'm really envious of you, And that Letted least signals like it's not you, it's me.

Like I'm dealing with my own insecurities and my own feelings of inadequacy and my own feelings and by the way, that same friend, you know, his career, just like when I was still like struggling and you know, trying to make a go of it, and I had no money, and he was starting his career starts to take off, and like we would go for dinner, and like he'd order expensive bottles of wine and I'm sitting there just stressed out because I know we're going to split the

check and I am like everything he's ordering and I'm just like sitting there going and it's just making me feel worse. His success is actually making me feel bad and affecting a boat and feeling inadequate and feeling lesser than. But this is why he's a great friend. He goes, hey, listen, let's make a deal. I'll pay for the wine and let's just split the meal. I'm like, I'm good, thank you. I don't have to say a word. He knows where he is and he knows where I am.

lashing out or making accusations. You're always throwing your money around in front of me. I knew all of that existed. Thank goodness, I had the self awareness to be like, this is me, this is my issue, These are my insecurity, these are my fears, this is my ego. And I can't remember what I did. I sat in a discomfort for a long time, and I think at some point I just talked to him. Yeah, and you know, he's he's one of my best friends in the world. And now I can look at him be like, dude, I'm

so proud of you, like you freaking nailed it. And I've known him since we were eighteen years old, you know, so it's like we've known each other since we were both idiots. You know, we've known each other since we were eighteen. We lived across the hall from each other freshman year of college, and we've always been friends. We've never not been friends.

just going through life. He probably was completely in fact, knowing what I know about him, he was completely I guarantee you mostly unaware, right I remember, I just I love him, I care about him. Nothing happened. I didn't do anything to me, just doing well. I treated it like like this is a tension and I have to get through this because it goes right back to it before the stress is worth it. Yeah, this friendship is worth going this, This stress is worth getting through for

this friendship. It's not. You can't say that about all friendships, but in this case, it was it was worth it. It was worth it to sit in mud by myself and maybe tell somebody else what I was going through and have them go, oh, that sucks, you know. So I don't remember the details, but I'm pretty sure that's how I dealt with it. I probably told somebody else.

changed or grown. Of course, I've learned new skills, so they but that they didn't think I was changing negatively and that allowed me to continue to be who I wanted to be with them.

me a different answer that they will say now that Jay's all successful and you know.

went to the end of a relationship like breakups. But I was thinking about another thing that I feel a lot of people are struggling with friendships that I at least here right now, are people who are wanting to kind of like where you were actually, but you're wanting to grow, You're wanting to pivot into a new business, You're wanting to start something. And what I've noticed is we're not scared of what people think on the internet.

We're scared of what people around us think when you're starting something, Like when you're trying to begin something, you're not really scared about what some anonymous person says on the internet. That's not even on your mind. You're scared about what your friend from college is going to say about that video you made, or you're scared of what your friend from high school is going to say about

the business you're about to start. You're scared of the LinkedIn update that goes out to your former colleagues, right, Like, that's the thing you're worried about. What do we do when we feel that people around us don't believe in us? Are the most cynical, the most skeptical, are the most negative about our ideas.

more than you. Right. So I think we confuse when we think bigger than ourselves. We don't necessarily mean national stage. Bigger than yourself can just means more than one. Right. Anybody who wants to have an impact in the lives of others has to get used to the idea that not everybody's going to like you, Right. You just have to get used to that idea. And for me, I have rules, which is if you don't like me because you disagree with me. I'm cool with that. Right. If

you don't like me because somehow I make you uncomfortable, I'm okay with that too. But if somebody I respect doesn't like me, now I've got a problem, right, because I'm not so blind and pigheaded to be like, screw the world, it's me. You know. If you don't like it, you can you know, you can eat it. Right. My eyes are open. And if there's a friend I care about,

who's m simon? Okay, I got to take that seriously because now I'm getting too big for my breeches, or now I'm not listening, or now I'm ignoring my blind spots, And now I got a problem, right. But if somebody just disagrees with me, I mean, what am I supposed to do? I don't get everything right. Sometimes things come out wrong. Give me some grace, you know. But if you just disagree with me, like what am I like? I don't know what. I actually don't know what to do.

It's like the gold dress, blue dress? Remember that? Yeah, it's like the dress is blue, You're an idiot, it's gold. I'm like, what am I supposed to do. I see it as blue. I don't know what to do. That's what it is, right, It's hard. Everybody wants people to like. You know, I have a lot of respect for people who like literally don't care. Yeah, I don't have that.

good person. That people don't like me or aren't giving me a lot of views, I might I must not be a good person, and how to disconnect a like or a view or a comment from what I'm trying to do here and what I'm putting out in the world. And the problem is it's the incentive structure, right, because if you're making money from views, if your sense of value in the world comes from those numbers, that's the insidious version of what you're saying. And how do you

get comfortable like some will do well? Like I can tell you I've won the Internet Lottery more than once.

That's why I call it virals. I was at a dinner once and a guy I'd like, what do you do? He's like, I made viral videos. I'm like, no, you don't. You make videos and you hope they go viral. And that's why this stuff is hard. Now you can do tricks and games. You and I both know people who use all the tricks and games to drive the views.

And you know, and there are tricks and games on Amazon, there are tricks and games on YouTube, there are tricks and games on Instagram, right, TikTok, they all have tricks and games. But when something actually goes for legitimate reasons, it's because you connected with somebody you didn't even really knows realize why or how. And to make those the

standards is ridiculous. It's stupid. Like people said to me, Simon, you know, after I wrote, start with why, how are you going to write a second book as popul as the first? The answer was easy, I'm not. I'm not. Didn't predict that, didn't orchestrate her. That's like asking me, how are you going to repeat that lottery win? Well, I've studied the numbers I picked the first time, and I've got a formula I having to pick. No, I won the freakin lottery? What do you want from me?

It was like a weird It was like this weird thing where and I've seen that with people when they're trying something new. It's like the people around them will be the most cynical, the most skeptical, And if you use that as feedback it could get better, or if you use it as like, hey, you're not really an explant that you don't know much, I'm just going to

get on with it, right. That's what I'm trying to get at is like how does how does someone deal with the discomfort of just your best friend thinks your business idea sucks, or like your your best friend thinks the person you're dating is not right for you.

I mean I had a girlfriend many years ago who nobody could like they looked at us walking dow the street and people just like like I me and my friends like they're like, what like they couldn't understand this relationship.

And what they didn't understand is who I was and what I need In that time, she was magical and we're still friends, but nobody, nobody got it, and she was socially awkward and like so like if you've got friends with big personalities and you know, we go and she's just quiet the whole night, Like my friends didn't

get it. That's the other thing I've learned, which is to do people not like the girl I'm dating or do they just want somebody who's the life of the party.

certain group friends saying I'm the biggest introviet there is. Yeah, and then in sand and I'm the awkward ones sometimes where people like I don't get it same you're dating him. He's so vivacious on stage and on camera, and at dinner he was quiet and grumpy. How should introverts think about friendships differently to extroverts.

knew how to insert myself into one of them. And I know, oh the people like, but I never know how to insert myself. And so I just stand by myself with my drink in the middle of the room. And she would always make fun of me that I would just stand there by myself, just totally fine, just taking the room in, you know, and I just feel sorry sorry for everybody else is looking at me going out. I don't even know. People don't know how to talk

to me. How do you walk up to it? A person just standing in the middle of the room by themselves, Like I think friendships are the same, Like, of course it's partially. It's energy, is what we get from people. And I'm going to go right back to what we said before. Stop thinking about the introversion of the extraversion of life of the party, death of the party. Does this person give you something? Are they additive to your day,

to your night, to your life? Not every friendship has to be a deep, meaningful relationship, but every friendship should be additive, and it should they should be worth the time and the energy that we invest. Yeah, right, And one thing I look to is you don't need to keep score, but you do want there to be some reciprocal investment. I've definitely had friendships where I'm the one making the plan, I'm the one doing the calling, I'm

the one doing the texting. They always respond, But if I didn't call her text I'm not sure I'd ever hear from them again for the rest, you know. And in those scenarios, I'm asking myself, like, we have fun, I'm investing. What if we didn't? What if I didn't invest? I'm just curious, And so I've done little experiments where I just like, don't and some of those friendships drift apart. They just drift apart, and you're like, huh, okay, got it,

not offended. And then other times the person will be like, I have not talked to you for so long. You are always so good at staying in touch with me. I'm a bad friend. I'm going to do better. I don't like not talking to you, And they pick up their game, and again it goes right back to where we started. If you peel the onion back one layer. A lot most of us are bad friends, and most of us are lazy, you know, and most of us would prioritize work before a friend and take our friends

for granted. In this case, when one person's putting in all the energy, it's super easy to be the lazy friend. On the other end, I've definitely been the lazy friend on the other end, you know, I have one friend

rockstar rock star. It's making plans, getting in touch and so, you know.

few things that are quote unquote right or wrong. But a lot of this is figuring out what each person wants, and sometimes by the way, they want things different things at different times. And that's the if you're really busy, if you're really stressed, or if you're really distracted, or and like, well, we've all been the person or been the friend of the person who like has a new romantic relationship and all of a sudden you don't anymore.

Ye right, We've all been that person, and we've all been on the receiving end of that person, right, And then they break up, and then they start calling and be like, oh, well now that you're now that I'm you're not busy, and now you're a friend again, right right, yeah, And so like what do.

It's usually miscommunication and then lack of communication, and so if you can communicate even badly, that will lose bcate the relationship. And so what I find is that good relationships talk about the relationship. Yeah, Like, you see good marriages and they like, I love how our marriage works so well. And you see good friendships. You know, you're like, ugh, here's what I love about our friendship. I love that

I can tell you everything. I have one friend that almost every time we talk, almost every time, I will say the same thing. Do you know One of the reasons I love our friendship is because debt dot dot dot dot, and I say it, and I even say I know, I say this every time I talk to you, but it's just how I feel every time I do. I love that we're friends because I can dot dot dot or you make me feel dot dot dot every time, and we talk about the friendship, and I think that's healthy.

And so it's okay to talk about the friendship. It's okay to say here's what I love, here's what I you know, and and it's okay if we need different things in different moments. And as I said before, if we do the work, it's not the chat Chebt answer. It's if you do the work, you get to earn the serotonin, you get to earn the oxytocin, you get to earn the feeling of the hug because it is natural and not because you counted for it. The serotonin's

because it's earned and you have genuine joy. And if you cannot because you've got your own stuff going on, if you cannot be that person for the time that you know they need you, then simply say so, I got shit going on in my life. I can't be the person you need me to be right now. I love you, I love you, I love you. I just need to deal with my own shit, because otherwise people

will make up stories. Ninety nine times out of one hundred tho stories are wrong, and then we will treat people or act based on our version of events or our story. And that's all listening is. Listening is just hearing what the other person's story is, just so I have the context for why you've been acting the way you've been acting. The story doesn't have to be right. It's just their story, just like my story doesn't have

to be right. It's right to me, but it's just my experience of something like my friends like you did this, and then you did this, and then you did this, and I was like wow, and I didn't say well, I didn't intend to. I said wow, I'm sorry, like I'm so sorry. Yes I did do that, And now I want to tell you my experience of what happened to the same event. You did this, and you did this, and you did this, and she said no, I didn't,

and I went, I'm not telling you, I'm right. I just want you to hear how I experienced what went down, so you have context for why I acted the way I acted, because now I have context for the way you acted the way you acted. Neither of us is right and both of us are right. So this is about understanding, not about competing. And the funny thing about communication is when somebody gets it wrong or when somebody gets it right, you'd be like, thank you for saying that.

That's the best thing I needed to hear. And when they get it wrong, you'd be like, don't invalidate my story. Please just listen to my story. Sorry, sorry, sorry, you're right, you're right, you're right. Like this is the great thing about human beings is we can actually like give people guidance about what they're getting right and wrong in the moment and it doesn't destroy the moment, and you can be like, you're right, I'm sorry, I'd like to reset.

Please continue. We can do that and it works. I have one friend. I mean, it's how so funny that how much guidance were able to give people as opposted letting them guess. I have one friend I was upset about something another who knows what I was hurt. I was like, can I just tell you? And I did all the things I want to tell you. I'm hurt, and this is the story I'm telling myself may not be true. I just want you to know what happened when you said this. It made me feel this way,

and she goes, well, that's not what I intended. I'm like, I didn't say you intended it. I just want you to know how I feel, and she goes, well, that's those are your feelings. I'm not responsible for the way you feel. I'm like, well, actually you are. You know, when people say like, I'm not responsible for your feelings, your feelings, your feelings, I'm like, that's not true. If you say something mean and it hurts my feelings, yes they're my feelings and I'm responsible for my feelings. But

you said that that made me feel bad. So yes, you are involved in this chain of events. I totally reject this idea as like I'm not responsible for your feelings, your feels or your flings, Like, no, you called me, you called me ugly, and that hurt my feelings because it tapped into my insecurities.

I'm getting freshured with you. This is super easy, right, Just say sorry. That's all I need. Just just say sorry. You said those words. Just say sorry. She goes I'm sorry. I'm like, thank you, and then we were fine.

I didn't attend them. Well, if you're walking through the airport with your wheelibag and you run over someone's foot by accident, you turn around and they turn around and you're like, I'm so sorry, right, didn't do it on purpose, but it is your wheelibag. Now if they turn around and look at you, waiting for the the sorry, and you're like and you look at me like, what, I didn't do it on purpose, and a fight will ensue. You will get yelled at.

It's liberating to know that, you know, if you can be messy, we all can.

the perfection. We fall in love with the imperfection. We fall in love when somebody lets us be imperfect, allows us to be imperfect, and allows us to love them for being imperfect. We showed up on the first date because of all the perfection and imperfection is earned, like the space to be imperfect is earned. You do not reveal all your imperfections on date one too soon, too much. That's overwhelming. And when you do the work and you take the small risks that then become big risks. I

want to be my messy self. With somebody who loves me for my messy self. And I want somebody to feel that I love them no matter how messy they are. And that is a high standard and a hard thing to find. And if you have a friend like that, you work damn hard to protect that friendship.