Shawn Mendes: How to Let Go of Your Past Self and Fully Embrace Who You’ve Become Today

What does it feel like being in this room, dude? Since such an incredible journey that we're getting to be a part of here.

I remember singing treat you better in here. This is a place of breakthrough for me.

What's it been like for you having your romantic life be so public? Elia actually sent us a note. No way, my sister yes, so she says, dear Sean, Oh no, I'm going to cray. We'd throwed to announce that we've reached three million subscribers. We're incredibly grateful for each and every one of you. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss out on any of our new releases. We're dedicated to

Man crazy finally.

Finally after four years of hikes.

It feels like it feels like longer than four years.

Man, it does feel that four years. But yesterday night I went back and traced back the first time we messaged twenty twenty, twenty twenty years, so I was like, yeah, I was like, I thought it was longer too, But yeah, it's been a lot of deep time there.

Yeah, it's it's been crazy, and I mean we've been talking about wanting to do this, but yeah, I knew the right time would just appear, and it just feels like so the right time. And I guess for everyone, you guys don't really know that, like the last four years, Jane, I had this beautiful relationship where we go on these hikes and we just kind of catch up and yeah, man, you've just been You've been beyond there for me for

Yeah, truly, brother, thank you for saying that the feeling's mutual. I think it's really interesting when you connect with someone and you're being kind and saying I was there for you, But I think you've equally been there for me, hope so, and you've helped me see things in myself that I wouldn't have seen if I didn't know you. And I think watching you reflect through the process you've been through in the last four years, and watching you be so inward focused kind of forced me to do more self

Yeah, if you're listening, we are and we're sitting in the middle of a live room in a studio called the Clubhouse in upstate Rhinebeck, New York. If you're watching, you're seeing all the beautiful candles and stuff. This is probably one of my favorite places in the whole world.

Of just like time. And Yeah, it's an amazing studio.

Yeah you can feel it. I felt when I walked in, and I can feel it right now. There's a different energy in here. So I'm so grateful that you allowed us to come in and share this with the rest of the world through this interview. And it's really beautiful actually being in a space where an artist creates and moves and cries and breaths, and I think it's rare you don't really get access to that. I think you go see artists in a concert or in a public

Yeah, we were talking about talking the night before.

Yeah, yeah, you were actually the person I texted at like one am that night when I was just in complete spin of what to do. And I just remember feeling so much like I think in those situations, it feels really hard to ask people to give you advice or to give you an opinion because it's such a

So thank you for that. But yeah, so sorry, go on.

Noh yeah, no, no, no, I'm sure glad that you remember that. I remember you telling me that you know, on tour, an artist has to do something like or someone like yourself has to do like one hundred and fifty shows minimum. And I remember asking you, at what point do you feel like you can't do another show? And you said around like fifty.

Yeah, and I was just like what.

I was like, so wait, you have to do one hundred And it was so funny because I went on my World tour last year, I only needed forty shop and I felt it around thirty three yeah, And I was.

Like, wow, she probably has something to do with relative to when the end is.

Yeah, yeah, fifties any race, ye know? And so anyway, you said there were two times you posted about it, but this one you said, this breaks my heart to have to say this, but unfortunately I'm going to have to postpone the next three weeks of shows. I've been touring since I was fifteen, and to be honest, it's always been difficult to be on the road away from

Yeah, And I think like the reality is, anyone who does anything at a high level knows that it's hard. It's hard, Like anything you want to do that's extraordinary is hard. So there are going to be these moments where it feels really hard and it feels like you can't do it, and that I think every athlete or performer or anyone knows, you know that there are all these dips and these peaks, and that's just part of it.

And it was amazing.

And but the reality is that, you know, I really do believe all your eggs in one basket is a dangerous way, you know. And I was like, I was the number one ruter of like I have no plan B. I don't have, you know, And I had nowhere to go when things were getting hard, you know, I didn't have other aspects of life that I felt connected to that I could have like leaned into to have a little bit of like a break from touring and come

And so yeah, I mean, canceling that.

Tour was by far the hardest decision of my life and by far the greatest decision of my life. And it gave me a life, you know, it really it gave me time to discover so much about myself. And yeah, I'm smiling now because it's so far away, but it, yeah, did so much for me.

You know.

Who did you feel? I know later on you talk about in the same song this idea of I feel pressure from the people that I love and it hurts. Yeah, but I know I got to do it, got to put me first. Like who do you feel you were letting down at the time, yourself and others.

Yeah, I think the reality is not just as the artist, is not just you that sacrifices everything to do that. You have a team of almost one hundred people who are away from their families for year and they're every day working, They're not sleeping, they're sacrificing everything to put this show on. That was one of the hardest pills to swallow.

You know.

It's just like, oh man, and like they are excited to like, you know, you got to be an insane person to be a touring crew or anyone on tour.

You have to truly love it.

You have to understand that, like this is profoundly greater than you and what's happening is magical. And so it was like not letting people down and like we've worked so hard. It was like, oh man, people were excited, you know, people were proud out of what they created, and that was the hard part.

Yeah.

Yeah, it feels like I remember when we would talk about it. Then there was also this weight around it where it was like you'd had this growth period in your life, where as you said, you've been doing this since you were fifteen. Yeah, and then all of a sudden, you were kind of getting the growth opportunity to say, I get to make my own decisions now. And I remember, like, just learning from you about that dynamic of young people who become successful and famous and very very early on,

Going to be the one to make the decisions now? Am I going to take the responsibility?

Yeah? And I think, yeah, that's the hardest part is.

He really comes down to the moment you're prepared to take responsibility for your life and for everything that goes wrong and for everything that goes right. And it's hard, you know, because your whole life you either you have your parents to either rely on, like you know, you look at them and.

They go, okay, yeah, well they said.

It's always kind of like you can deflect that responsibility on to someone else, whether it's my manager or someone, and uh, yeah, that was just like, this is going to be a big decision I make and then there's going to be repercussions here and I'm going to have to be responsible for it. And yeah, it's it's kind

So, yeah, you.

Said something beautiful just now you said it was the hardest decision and it was the greatest decision.

Yeah.

Have you found those two things often go together or would you say that's not the case.

I find that simultaneously the hardest moments of my life are coupled with the most beautiful moments of my.

Life every time.

Yeah, it actually became kind of like a joke during this making of this album, because when I would walk into the studio and I you know, people would see on my face immediately if I'm having anxiety or and they would be like, we're going to write a good song today. Like every time, it was like there was

So, yeah, I do.

How does an eyes never find peace?

Then that's a great question.

I think like I would be following through, and I do follow through even if there's no song to write.

You know.

I think we're so taught, especially in so many societies and cultures, but like I feel like in the West, we're so taught to just there's a time and place for things. And if you're in an interview and tears are about to come if you're in an interview and anger is about to happen, you can't let that happen. And I really have noticed that, like, if you can just like express it in an honest, calm way, most likely a more beautiful thing is going to come through

So you do live like that?

I do?

You do live like that? And I haven't said it yet, but you know, this album, it's so fascinating for me to see it from the moment that we're talking about now to then its creation, because I remember when it was you trying to figure out your voice and figure out who you are as an artist, as a person,

Well, yeah, and it's like, you know, you have the idea of some if I said to you, you know, six months ago, I want to make the most honest album ever made. Then you start having ideas of what

Yeah, And that's that's hard though, it's super hard.

How do you trust that? How do you trust it? Because I feel like, with exhaustion, I think we're living at this time where I feel like everything's perfectly engineered, manufactured, and even authenticity is programmed. Yeah. Yeah, and then you're trying to say, well, no, I actually want to create something like that, but then how do I not engineer it?

Something that I learned on this process was just like the foundation, like the first brick you lay, If that brick is a brick of like authentic truth. If you work really hard to get to that place, and that first brick you lay is truth, each brick after that

Know, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was saying this to Helena the other day yesterday when we were driving from Boston last night, and I was just saying that I'm at a point in my life where i just want to experience, like I don't want to think about It's not that I don't I want to be It's not that I want to be irresponsible and not think about consequences or repercussions.

What lights? Is the lyric you get the fans.

There we go, I message, we go, there we go, there we go?

The lights?

Yeah, there lies. I heard lies.

I mean no lies.

I mean maybe lies internally, but yeah, I think the lights. And metaphorically I think it was just more so it had so much to do with perception, just this kind of instant, just this constant focus on what I look like and what I feel like to the world, and I needed to I stopped. I didn't even know at that point what I felt like and what I looked like to myself.

You know.

There was a real like stripping down process that had to happen and took me a long time. But up until up until, like I would say, like the creation of this album, I don't remember the last time I felt so like just myself. Probably the last time was when I was like nine or ten.

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Not having the need to like cover the late cover the layers of what I was feeling. You know, I was just like an expressing ball, you know, like similarly to how I'm a Probably I probably like more emotional today, similarly to how it was when I was nine, you know. And yeah, I guess just that not having the.

The words and.

The stories that you've been told, you know, as you start to grow up, spinning in my head and just expressing truth of who I am. And I'm lucky too, man Like. I know that a lot of people they're not surrounded by people who are maybe super accepting or embracing of that truth, and I know that's hard, and I think I have a lot of compassion for that. And the reality is that I wasn't around a lot

Walk me through that discomfort, because I think it's easy to jump from. Like I canceled tour too. I'm in the studio making new music and we both know it wasn't like that.

Yeah, no, not at all.

I walk me through. So one thing in the discomfort you're saying is surrounding yourself with people that allow you to be yourself. Yeah, you to be and figure it out. What else were like really important kind of principles that guided you through that no man's land, through that desert of time? What was it for you that kind of showed you that nought style when things were dark?

So many things.

Like, you know, I think the process of like healing and moving through a dense moment in your life is not just sticking to one thing. It's really using everything at your fingertips. And whether that was therapy or whether that was like friendship, or it was reading, or it was music or what it was you know, Uh, it

Also like.

Just reach out to people and be like, you know, that was just such a huge part of it. You know, I didn't know at the time, but just using using the people around me to support me was a huge huge part of it. And yeah, not and being open to not knowing how to get through it and just letting people maybe help me how they can, you know, and they might have their own way. And yeah, the people a song on the album called Heavy, and it's just so much of it. It's just about letting people

It's really hard.

You know, a lot of people, including myself, just like want to freeze up. And so my new thing is kind of like instead of walking into a room when I'm feeling bad holding it, the first thing I'll do is just like literally like lean on someone like physically, like hey can I can I have some love and I need it? And that changes it like shifts so much, you know.

Yeah that's so powerful. Yeah, that's so powerful.

Yeah, I love that.

And I feel like I remember in the beginning when we'd hang out if you weren't feeling good, they'd be a part of you be like I don't think.

I want to hang out you Yeah, yeah exactly, And then that.

Switch of what you're saying where it's like, oh no, no matter how I feel, Yeah, I need to lean and I love that and that's freeing.

Like if I can only hang out with you when I'm feeling still in at peace and coming from a very high perspective, I am like I got three percent of the time, you know, like and I think even for doing.

Something like this podcast.

I mean when we first met each other, I used to be like, oh, I got to get to this degree of you know, calm and understanding of life. And the reality is I don't have a deeper understanding of life. I just have a deeper acceptance of self. And that allows me to sit here and be like, hey, like here, here, it is here, this is what we got, you know, and that has changed everything to me. It frees you from so much, you know, you can kind of just be like, hey, this is That's actually a huge part

I'm this is it. I'm here, So let's just let's be this, you know.

Yeah, Yeah, and it trips us up. I feel like we just, yeah, we're trying to be something we're not, or trying to be something we're not feeling.

Yeah, we're trying to feel.

Something we don't genuinely feel in the moment, whether it's us trying to be more confident, trying to be more calm, trying to be more whatever else it may be fill in the blank.

Yeah, and it.

Lets us down and.

Wand letting yourself down too. You know there's a part of you that you're just like telling yourself. You're telling that part of yourself like you're not good enough to be around these people or to be in front of this camera.

You know, what was the hardest question you had to ask yourself during this whole period, Like, what was the question that you asked yourself the most often that you sought the answer for?

Was just like general direction.

I remember so many times I was just like driving my car aimlessly and I would just be like literally, I think the verbatim words I said out of my mouth were like you're exactly where you're supposed to be, Like you're exactly where you're meant to be, Like this is I know it might not look like what you thought it was supposed to look like. It might not feel like what you thought, but like something about this is uh is it? And there was just a lot

You know?

He introduced me to another friend and another friend, and by the time after I knew it was like every day there's three or four of us would sit around having coffee and it was like just little group therapy sessions, and it just became the most the best thing in the world world to me. It was like nine am, We're gonna go talk it out.

And it was exactly.

Where I was supposed to be at that time, and it was so weird and awkward and uncomfortable, but it man, it really, yeah, really that little thing changed my life.

It was funny because I'd always people wuld always tell me I just saw sure and hang around a coffee shop like this.

I sit there, like you can see the mayor of the coffee shop.

And it's start to become like this this thing where everyone would like watch it and be like, what's going on here? Uh? And I feel like you you really took shelter in like building your men's circle and your men's group and having that ability to have, you know, a group of men around you that you could be honest with and with What was what was unique about that? Like why was that such an interesting thing to build?

Yeah, and like I had a couple I had, you know, I have I had this this kind of coffee men's group, and I had this other beautiful men's group simultaneously happening. And I think, you know, just having like men from all ages, from all parts of the world to do all different things like really just show up and strip it all back and just be brave in front of you.

There, like, hey man, still here?

You know, that's beyond you know, So in simple ways like that, that's been a huge part of it.

Yeah, And I like that you were playing that role while you were receiving that. I think there's something really interesting about that.

It's empowering.

You're simultaneously being vulnerable and then also listening to other people go through their stories and you're empowered to be strong and hold for them. And it's just a beautiful process, you know.

Because I think a lot of us feel like when I.

Get there, I'll be strong enough and I'll be strong enough to.

Hold space for others. It's almost like this simultaneous mutual holding is what we all need. And you're actually only going to be better at holding others if you allow yourself to be held and if you practice holding others even when you have nothing to hold them with exactly, and that balance is what creates that structure, that foundation that you're resting on.

The roots.

Yeah, you were talking about this, You're talking about heavy and in the song you say it's been so heavy, it's been so long running from everything and nothing at all. I was thinking about that a lot. It was like, so often we think things are so heavy and there's so much going on, and then at the same time you're like, but it's not. Yeah there, look me through that dilemma, because.

The constant dilemma. It's like, in.

Reality, there is a lot going on, and then also in reality it's okay oftentimes too. You know, it's that internal perspective that you're going through. And I felt like, yeah, just running when you have the money and the ability to be on the constant move and run. I just ran, and I was just never still and it was like I couldn't figure out how to get away from the feeling that was that was feeling so bad, and at

It's very hard to get to that state.

But sometimes when you do, it allows you to look around and be like, Okay, actually it's okay.

You know, well, you're running away from fame? Was it was it? What was it? What did you feel you were running away from? Did you Was there a point where you're like, I don't want to be famous, like I don't want to have the platform.

Absolutely, And I think just like more of like what I felt like the fame was doing to my mind, and I was I was letting it do to my mind, and it all was based around perception and just all I wanted to feel was comfortable in my own body, you know, and like not rowling in my skin, from like every word that would come out of my mouth to the way I would sit in a chair, everything,

And I had to.

Just reconnect with that, and that's that's why I name the album Sean Too Like, And you know, I just felt like, yeah, just that that process of stripping just took so long, and a lot of it is just like I think, a lot of it is.

This idea of who.

I wanted to be in this world, you know, this like this image of perfection, and I just like, even right now, I'm just like, oh, man, like, thank God for everything, because I'm sitting here and I really am not having tons of intrusive thoughts about like is how are you saying the right thing? Are you doing the right thing? It just it just is, you know, and I'm just grateful for that. It's a nice feeling. I just got to like check on that for a second.

You know. I'm glad you're feeling that way. That's what I say what I was doing the intro. I mean, I felt that way because we always talk about these things anyway. Yeah, it's even strange having all this stuff. Yeah, and this is And it was funny because I was noticing something that was happening in our conversation. I'd be halfway through a thought and you'd lead on it, let me ask the question. Sorry no, And I was like, but that's what would do, like we would never we

It's exhausting, man.

And I remember, like you told me about some of the pressures back then that came from different sources of like, oh, if you want to be the biggest artist, then you

Yeah, of course, what did.

That stripping away look like? Where Like we always talk about this, like you look great, you're dressing well, you know, the hair looks good. Like, how have you got to a point where like you can care? Yeah? Then still, I.

Think that's part of it. Actually, honestly, I can.

My tendency is to be very extreme, and a lot of what I work on in therapy is just finding this middle ground, is to not be in these black and white binaries, you know, And I oftentimes I went from like, you know, wanting to look like the image of perfection to like I'm just going to go be a man in the woods and like I don't care what I look like, I don't care what you think. And there's a good period I'm sure of paparazzi photos where people could tell, you know.

And we'll find them in Yeah.

And I think like it took me a long time to also come back around to just like caring about how you look and caring about that type of stuff. There's nothing wrong with that, you know. It's actually a beautiful thing. It's just when you start to be completely consumed by it. And so I started to find a middle ground again where I was like, Okay, you know what you can care, just like don't kill yourself caring, you know, and yeah, it's just yeah, the extremes they don't work for me anymore.

Yeah, I didn't really work for any of us.

No, no, no, they don't, man, they don't. The second you can start allowing room for complete like paradox to exist in your life and like two things to like the number one thing I say in therapy is yeah, I know I'm feeling this and I'm also feeling this at the same time, and that's okay.

And that's just like it's just creating more space all the time.

You know.

You have this song Hot of Gold. This was something that stood out to me. You say, I'm sorry I wasn't there to hug your mama at the funeral. Yeah, I didn't cry. I didn't even feel the pain. Then it hit me all at once when we talked about it yesterday. Yeah, walked me through who that was what happened there?

When I was young, when I was like twelve thirteen, I had a friend his name was Daomi. My friend Brian, you know Brian, him and I and Diomi were just great friends and we, uh we spent a lot of time together, and he was awesome dude. He was a lot like me. He's like very sensitive dude, and just like I really really connected with him. And when I was fifteen, obviously got signed, started making music and you know, went off and started touring, and then him and Diomi

Is this song about? And Scott, who I make a lot of music with. He looks over.

I mean, he goes, didn't you have a friend who passed away from an overdose? And second he said that Brian was in the room. Brian goes talking about Diomi, And yeah, the second he said Diomi's name, it's just like hit me, Like years of like not processing it just like all hit me. And we sat there and sobbed and yeah, the song, man, it was a hard song to write, and it just felt like a letter. It felt like a letter to my friend that I never got to the things I never got to say

Man, it just is.

Uh it's just this beautiful golden light and he is just like this super swaggy dude, and it just like it holds his energy and it's just like every time we play it, I just imagine this huge golden light beaming up from the place we're in wherever he is, just reaching him and uh, yeah, I love that song. Little I can play I can play it for you on the on the song, but yeah, man, I love.

That song as well. I was, Yeah, I was intrigued because that wasn't something I was aware of.

Yeah, it's funny, man, like how these things are when you're open to the truth and what wants to come out of you and what wants to be made.

Yeah, it h it's unexpected and it was extremely healing.

It's still very healing to just like sing that song out to him every every time I play it.

Now, have you played it for his family?

I haven't.

Actually, I have to go back to Pickering and play it for his mom.

Yeah. Yeah, how do you think she'll react?

Yeah, I don't know. I think she'll love it. She's an amazing human being.

I always had an amazing connection with her, and so I could see her just like she's just a badass, just totally rock into it and loving it.

And yeah, special family, special human.

It's nice to immortalize it in a song, and it is mortalize him.

Yeah, it is. It is really really nice. I never wrote about death in that way before. So yeah, was it?

Was it a process of forgiving yourself for not having for Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of it.

A lot of it was the guilt for not reaching out, or the guilt for not being there for him, or even more so, just the guilt for not being at his funeral and seeing his mom and all this stuff. And music has this funny way of healing and a way that other things can't, you know. So yeah, I can't wait to play for his mom. Honestly, I can't wait.

Yeah, I can't wait for you to tell me I well, I can imagine it just being like this, yeah, really special moment, and I think, you know, it's it's so human that, like you know, there's there's so many things we we go through that we're not ready to process something yet, and then we feel guilty that we weren't ready when we almost feel we needed to be. But then you realize that actually, when you were ready to

Yeah, it's grieving is just a complex thing, probably lasts a lifetime.

You know.

It's beautiful that it came to you in that moment and that you were able to Yeah.

Yeah, I'm glad you related to it.

Man. Yeah, no, I mean I relate to in so many ways. I mean, even even grieving, Like I think grief as we talk about obviously this is talking about the loss of a friend and mine too, but I think grieving is also like I was at my sister's wedding last year, and my sister's one of my favorite people on the planet, one of my best friend. She knows everything about me. She's four and a half years younger than me.

Weilar sister vibes. Yeah, same with mine.

Yeah, she's just like I love her to bits and she's like she's like my little brother. Actually, yeah, that's how unfortunately she's been treated. But you know, I was at our wedding last year and I left the UK. I left London eight years ago now, and we've kept in touch and we've kept our relationship like we're as

I don't even have it on hand of me crying at my sister's wedding.

I have to show you. It was just wait, sorry, I wasn't prepared for this. That's why it's genuinely in the moment. I'm trying to make sure that I have it man so good, and then zoom out to see Roddie's.

Oh man, it's really good. I've never seen your face. Oh man, that is so good.

That is an unreal photo. There's so much happening on your face. There's a whole story on your face.

Rather's like taking a picture, taking a picture. And then I made her cry and that was yeah good. But what I'm getting to is this idea of like I was at my sister's wedding thinking it was going to be completely normal, and it wasn't because I started to realize that when I left London, I had to switch off. Partly I was connected with her and I loved her.

Yeah, yeah, grief is a really really complex, interesting thing.

But yeah, that's beautiful, man. I love that photo so much.

I was ended to you, please, I said afterwards, that's so good. I wanted to talk to you a bit about you know, and I hope you don't mind doing an album at all, because I think it's to me. I always get happy when I can. You know your music's so healing for me, and I know it's going to be so healing for people. Actually, actually talked to me about that because you had fifteen fans in here, yeah, last night night, and that was the first time you

Oh man, what was that?

Like?

It was really special. It was just like so.

It was my first time really telling the story of all the songs, you know, and it was just a sobbing fest. Everyone was sobbing and everyone was crying. And it's just another reminder that like, greatness is not one person. It really is just so many things happening and aligning to make something special.

You know.

It's like the end of the night. Like when I look around, I'm like, oh, the can't and those are lit and like all the people in the room, the fans in there, like the friends who've come, like our friends who are amazing chefs who've come and made this amazing meal for them, and like there's flowers around, like you know, I didn't do any of this and my band, Like there are all these humans who are so amazing

Oh it was just.

Like and on top of that, just like the album itself, we put so much effort into just the stories and the truth of it that I felt like my job was so easy. All they had to do was represent the song. All they had to do was speak the truth of what we wrote about and perform it that way and move on like there was the greatest show ever was already wrote before we started, and I just

You play is so much easier. It just like it supports you.

It feels like you just have the lift of the truth, you know, and you can't rush that stuff.

At the end of the day.

You cannot rush art and music and you have to really allow it. And the fans last night they were like, hey, you know, at the end of the show, they're like, hey, like, if this is the type of music back with, take as much time as you need. And so it was so sweet. Yeah, it was so special for me.

Yeah, I feel like when I'm listening to this album, it feels like I'm listening to a friend talk to me about what they've been going through that we're catching up on a call. Good and I'm listening to a friend just hearing about what's going on in their life and how they're thinking about it.

Good, That's that's perfect.

Then, that's how And I feel like that's it's so beautiful And it's obviously so hard to do because you're doing it at you know, everyone's feeling that way and so that's not easy. And continuing our tour of the album, you talk about you know, loving relationships, which is a romantic relationship, which is such a big part of your own journey, and we've talked about this. It's such a it's such a sensitive part of our hearts, Like such

Love instead of just generated the general love.

And you know, in your song in Between, you say, if I'm not all in, then I'm all out, And it's never going to happen. If it doesn't happen right now, if it doesn't end with the ring, is it just sex, If it isn't black and white, then it's onto the next.

Yeah, for me, I'm definitely one of those people who has over put way too much weight on the romantic part of love. Doing that has done to many things. That's suffocated love. It has closed the door to any other kind of love that I could be receiving. I guess there comes a point where there came a point of the last couple years, I was just like I realized life is hard, Like this thing is too long and too hard to like not just not just be open to the love that's in front of you asking

Share a moment with you of love?

And it's hard at first because it's like it's really vulnerable to like allow that because all the things come in is like is this romantic?

Is this this? And is this going to be forever? Is this going? What does this mean? You know?

Is this weird because you're you're with someone and we're having a beautiful connection.

What is that? I mean? Is this bad? Is this wrong?

And all of that can exist at the same time and it's okay. And when you start making more space for all that complexity to exist, like you start to realize, Wow, there's a lot of opportunity for me to feel love every day. And I have noticed that my fixation on romantic love has dwindled, and I've just been so much more, you know, I guess generally feeling that empty space of love fill up. And that's just because I think I'm more willing to receive it from more places, you know.

So yeah, I'm open to love, That's what I'm saying.

What's it been like for you having your romantic life be so public and then when you break up it's public,

It's I mean, honestly, I think Camille and I have just done the best job at preserving our private little fire of love for each other. Because no matter how strong mentally you are, when there are millions of people commenting on it, it's so hard not to be affected by it and to be swayed by it, and to be inspired by it, and to desire it because people desire it, or to hate it because people hate it,

This is not a movie.

Celebrities are, you know, sometimes maybe they think they are, and sometimes they literally are. But like it is in a movie, this is real life. This is real love, and love is confusing and hard and goes through dips, and.

Goes through pauses, goes through breaks, goes through.

So much and so yeah, I really feel for everyone who goes through that.

You know.

I just feel like, as a celebrity, I just want to just come at it and be really truthful from the place of this is what love is like for me.

You know, what have you both done? And maybe obviously speaking for yourself, what have you done to protect the relationship in apart from distancing yourself from the noise? Yeah, what else has been useful in protecting whatever relationship may be in any faith?

For me and for us, I think immense honesty, just like over communication, you know, Like I felt this way when I was doing this interview and I said this thing, and I felt weird, and I'm sorry if it came off like that, and you know, I love you and that's my you know. It just immediately cuts through any type of assumption that I could make or she could make from anything. And you know, we're both amazing at that.

Yeah. So rather than be like, oh, I hope they don't see that, or I hope they don't, yeah, it's like, oh, I'm just going to tell them what I was while I was feeling that.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then how do you open yourself up to receive that honesty when it isn't comfortable, let's say.

I think it's also just a part of just understanding the situation we're in as and not only as celebrities but artists, you know, being two people that make music and tell the story of the heart, and that's just a big part of it, and we both are very aware of that, you know, So just having respect for the fact that we're storytellers, you know.

Wow, and that takes a lot though, Yeah, that takes it takes a lot of maturity.

Yeah for sure.

That's like a really mature perspective to have.

Yeah, And I mean we've been doing it since we're very young, so I think at this point we're just like we hopefully just have a great, deep, great respect. So I don't think either of us would ever cross a line. You know, we deeply respect each other.

That takes a lot. Man, It's so hard to, like, you know, as I've always said to you, you're an old soul, because I'm like, I don't people like twice your age, maybe even more than that, who struggle with that. Yeah, it's so hard to actually have that perspective and understanding and respect for someone's personal professional.

Yeah, you know, orbit it is.

It is, And it's hard when it's two people too. It's easy for one person to do.

I'm just lucky.

She's an amazing human being and she's incredibly understanding and thoughtful and caring, so communicating with her is not difficult, and I think that's just probably a huge part of it.

Yeah. Yeah, why does it feel sometimes that you can have two people who respect each other so much, connect so much, have so much admiration and love for each other, but that it's not right romantically, Like, why is that? Because you have this beautiful lyric that nobody knows that says when you're so in love in your soul's touch, but it's still not in love? Where does it go? Like, I feel like that's something a lot of people have.

Been struggled with.

Yeah, that's a great question. It is a great question. I don't have the probably greatest answer for. I think that's exactly why I asked, where does it go? Where does that love go? When it's so present? And I think the best answer I can come up with is just that love is a lot, but partnership is more

And I think.

It's tough because you can go your whole life and never feel that feeling of deep love again. And I think it's just really complex. It's been something I think people have been trying to figure out for a long time. And I just think potentially, you mean, we've talked about love a lot. I think potentially we're still all wrapping our heads around love and we're still working through such westernized,

And so for me, like, I.

Just like, hopefully there's a little bit of both. Hopefully you can have that spark and that magic and that love, and you can also have that compatibility where your two lives are working in flow with each other, you know, and obviously you're going to have to bend here and there.

But I think to a degree, you know, yeah.

I don't ask you or anyone because I think someone has the an answer. I know. I don't I ask because I think when people are navigating something, that's when they have the most reflective, variegated view of it. Because when you're actually going through it, yeah, you actually can at least people can hear themselves in Youah, in your voice,

And it's a constant question. It's like a constant question to be like, I mean that's also part of it, is like not it's okay to be unsure, even if you're unsure for the rest of your life, Like that might be part of it.

And that's that.

Yah, yeah, yeah, I mean the art of what you're talking about in the album, what you talk about, what we've talked about, what you're speaking about, it is just this like how do we get comfortable with discomfort? How do we get okay with uncertainty? Whether that's and but that's like that is the hardest and like you said, it's not something that you ever get to. It's something

To love, or just generally ill to both.

Yeah, both, yeah, both.

I mean, I think it's it's a lot of therapy, honestly, and I think for me, it's just I think everyone's different. For me, it's really helpful to just speak as practical

No, I love what you're saying, because I've always said maybe I've never even said this out loud, but I always reflect on like if forever, for whatever reason, and not that this is indicative of anything that's happening, but if for whatever reason, me and RADI were to ever go our separate ways. It's interesting. I think a lot of people would say, oh, but you told us you loved each other. Yeah, and you told us you had the perfect relationship, in which I have not. But and

And I think it goes back to just like I don't know, like maybe this sounds too idealistic or like optimistic, but like I think it goes back to just finding what you actually figuring out what it is you actually

Or like what is it that I actually want?

Or do I want to feel just a general more more love from more places? And do I want to feel supported and like I'm growing and like I'm being seen? And if you really ask yourself that question and then you find an answer, you might not, but if you find an answer, then you can start moving forward with what your answer was. And for me, it was really more of just like I really do want to just like have a greater I don't want on my ex to be in one basket, you know, because I don't

So there's some fans outside waiting now ready to go. Yeah, No, it's no. I you know what. That's what I've always admired about you, and I I'm hearing it today. I hear it in the album, like You've just always focused on asking good questions. Yeah, and that's like your life, Like that's who you are. And I think that it's so funny because as humans, we get so fixated on the answers, and we get so fixated on just a few answers, so we ask the same questions, yeah, like

Yeah, there's no answer to those questions.

There's no answer to this question. And what I've seen in you is you're always trying to ask like this wide array of questions that you know, like where will it go? Yeah, like isn't because the normal question to that will be like like so when you're so in love and your soul's touch, but it's still not in love. Where does it go? Most people would go, well, is that love or not?

Does that mean it was love?

Yeah?

Yeah, exactly, but that's not I don't question that. There's a zero doubt in my mind that love is love. It's yeah, it's like where does all that love go to? And I think that question itself is like, oh, that love is still completely here and able to funnel into the same person if they're willing to receive it in a different light, or funnel into anyone else around you that you love, you know. And but it's also like damn, like that absolutely sucks. Like that there's just that is

Yeah, exactly the truth. Yeah, it goes back to your point. Yeah, have the truth.

Yeah.

No, I really want to encourage people to you know, and I'm going into my world a bit here, but everyone who's listening and watching, I really hope this album helps you ask different questions. Yeah, because I feel like that's a real strength you have and I've learned through being in your company. Man, you don't really ask the same questions that we all ask. And I think that's what's led you on this beautiful journey and beautiful path and been able to look at the same things we

Oh wow, thank you, And it's really.

Powerful and I love that it's through music. So yeah, sorry, I went into a self development person.

Now, but hey, man, I'm right there. They all know that.

Yeah, for sure. There's a couple more lyrics here that I that I love because they're just so powerful in the love and relationship space that I have to bring them out this year this one. So but what about the in betweens you lay your head on me living for the next time that we touch. Isn't that enough? Talk me through that? Yeah?

I think similar kind of to what we were just saying is if you're if you're always focused on the highs, you might be waiting a while to receive something special, you know, And all these all these beautiful in between moments, like even like for me allowing myself to kind of like love the moment before the show and after the show and the morning and.

All of that.

Really it does one, it does a lot of things. Actually takes pressure off of the show to have to be such a big deal. And then it also just helps me enjoy the day generally much more. You know, if I sit there all day being like, there's one important thing today and that's the show. That's basically one and an hour and a half two hours of my day, what about the rest of it? You know, I want to enjoy the in betweens two because they are beautiful, you know.

Yeah, because otherwise our lives just bookends.

They're just our life. We look back, it's just the highs and lows, you know.

Yeah that well, like yeah, that's yeah. And I find like it's also then your life becomes a waiting for yeah, And so you're living in constant anticipation or constant anxiety for something to end. Yes, And that's the only in between you have. It's still linked to a beginning and an end. So I'm in anticipation of when will that good thing come? And then I'm an anxiety of.

When will this good thing end? Yeah?

Yeah, one last one which you go so vulnerable and you say, where is it? Visions of a naked in my head? Head? But I went off and shows my self instead.

Yeah, I mean that's that's.

There is a voice maybe you can call it a voice or a feeling I think inside of us that says sometimes like, this is what you gotta do. You gotta do something hard here, you know, and our very human side will do everything in its power to get you not to do that, and it will just like show you images and movies and the best plot you've ever you know, seen in your life of the thing, and it can really confuse you and just be like

I thought that was just me.

I thought I was just I thought I was the only one, and I thought it meant something. And I think that it's really common, you know, just for our it's part of the process of something and at the end of the day, like I think we all we can do is try to make the best decision that we think is best for ourselves and accept that because I'm not going to at the end of my life, God's not going to appear and be like, hey, all these things you did, those were the right decisions and

Keep you somewhere.

A big question I ask myself is like, when I am struggling to move past something, I ask myself, like, what is it that holding on to this thing or this person or this way, What is that protecting me from? Like what is that way of being protecting me from?

What about the torment of people who would say, like, well, why can't you and come and just make it work and just be together and just like come on, you love each other so much. All the other side where people would say, well, well, if it's not working, just let it be, just just throw it away, just forget about it, and you're kind of happy to live in the torment of like I'm happy to be in the in between.

I think the reality is no one will ever know what it's like to be in our bodies and to feel what we feel and to know where we know we're going, because oftentimes where we know we're going is not something we can express through words to other people. It's just a sense, a sense of where I'm headed, and no one's ever gonna understand that.

So I just that stuff. There's just noise in the wind.

For me. It feels like we're talking something so surface here about something so immensely deep and complex that it's not even worth my time to go into the answer those questions, because there's not even an answer to those questions, you know, And it's not a sense of I think choosing to live in torment. I think it's exactly like

I'm like, I actually don't know.

Like, but this is clearly exactly the moment that you are about to learn what it feels like. And like, if you can't find that sense of intuition, then at that point, I don't know what guides us.

You know.

Also, if you're not sure, you might not be ready to make the decision yet, Like there's a pressure to make decisions all the time. Like, I understand you don't want to waste people's time. I understand you don't want to do the wrong thing prematurely, but like, some things just need to play themselves out, and it's just I think that's just a reality too, you know. So allow yourself to get to that place, but don't let yourself go over that place.

Please.

I'm going to say this to you because I don't think I've said this to you before, but but it's an interesting reflection I'm having right now. I actually feel with you. We get a sense of your old soul when I ask you a superficial question and actually, like, and I haven't tried to ask any profound questions today because that's not my goal, but there's a beautiful simplicity of you that comes out out because you would never answer a basic, simple question in a basic, simple way.

I almost can't compute. It's like the thing happens in my head where I can't compute surface and I'm like, it's not computing.

You gotta get we gotta get under it.

That's how we get to see that you're not computing. Yeah, And I only realized it while having this conversation. I was like, oh yeah, like but but yeah, I wanted to show you something because I sent it. You can you'll probably guess where it's from, which I thought was really beautiful.

Oh yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. Man, it's Tony crying.

What was he crying about?

I probably a lot of things.

He's going through a lot of beautiful things in his life right now too. But these are my people, Like these are I talk about, Like an album is not just about making music, if you let it, it can also be about completely changing your life and the relationship to the people you've made the album with. Like what this has done for me and these guys, it's just like they became friendships to lifelong friendships.

You know, what does it feel like being in this room ten years dude? Since like that to me feels like such an incredible journey that we're getting to be a part of here, Like to sit in here ten years older you were what you were sixteen, yeah, fifteen going on sixteen.

Yeah, I remember singing treat you Better in here, and like I just was, I remember just like so much inner torment and so much breakthrough. Like this is a place of breakthrough for me. This is always where I'm found the wall and I've broken through it and it's just a magical little place.

Dude.

It's like it's like my version of Hogwarts here, you know, it really is, and I can't I'm just so like this this time around, Like what I've been really trying to do is everything to be really have a lot of intention of just like we're here right now, you know, and we're upstate and I'm going to play a show in a few days. Where I made the album. It's like you have to work so much harder to curate

This room knows how to hold me. And yeah, man, just.

It's cool. I just love it here. I'll be here for many more years.

Yeah, I think I feel like everyone can find a similar place like this for themselves. It may not be a place where they record music, but a place that they can turn to and come to and be held by and be embraced by and feel rooted and feel nourished. And yeah, I hope there's access is symbol to encourage people to look for that. And it could just be a little tree somewhere on a hike. It could just what's your take on.

That, Yeah, look for it or be open to the fact that you might be in it and you might know it very well.

And yeah, it's just having a space.

That holds the intention of the place you go to lay it all out, you know, really like lay it all out and break through and and struggle, and not all studios feel like this. It's also a beautiful town we're into like this town is special and being you know, in nature, like that's just like in the winter, it gets really different here too.

It's a whole whole story.

We've had rain and thunder, and every day it's a beautiful I've been looking at it. Yeah, it was raining, Yeah, yeah, Sean. You talked about your sister and I talked about mine.

Yeah.

And Elie actually sent us a note.

No way my sister.

Yes.

Oh no, I'm gonna cry already.

Is it? Yeah? Crash choked it up.

Crash looked this up. Oh no, you're ready? Sure, so, she says.

Dear Sean, I want to start by saying a huge thank you from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for opening up your heart, being brave and sharing your incredible gifts with all of us. Thank you for being not just a beautiful human but also the most amazing friend, brother, son, mentor, and artist. I'm truly at a loss for words to describe how proud I am of you, how proud we all are. Your music today feels like the most genuine

Eagerness is a kind word.

And I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching your unique YouTube videos with you. Honestly, you're like a real life, freaking cool superhero to me. Thank you for having the courage to be imperfect and for sharing that with the world. Your compassion and kindness, both towards yourself and others are real superpowers. We all feel the depth of your connection through your authenticity. It shines in everything you do, and

Eliah oh Man, that's so beautiful. Thank you. That means a lot. I love you.

Lena oh Man. Yeah, she is my best friend. Like over the last six months, we've just gotten so close and my little big sister too. Like I think when you start letting your little sister be your big sister sometimes, you know, it's such a beautiful experience when you see your pain turn into something beautiful. And then people start to feel that way, and you got to believe people when they tell you, you know, especially in people in my life, like she would not say that if she

Yeah.

Man, it's it's been the most healing thing I've ever done.

Yeah.

I really hope people feel that way, to be honest.

Yeah, yeah, No, I mean I wanted you to hear it from her because I feel like we all need to hear it. Yeah, we all need to hear it.

Yeah.

And you know, I can imagine that when you finish an album, it's actually the beginning of then sharing it with the world.

Yeah.

And so my hope today internally was like I want you to feel so much love, yeah, and so much support and so much embrace so that as you go out.

And I thought of it almost like this, like at the beginning, it's this little spark that's so you know, tender, and you have the people you really trust, and you show them little clips of it, little voice memos, and they put little they put their little twigs on it, and that flame starts to grow. And then you start showing other people and they put a log and I almost imagine my team and my friends and my family each place logs on this fire, and now we just

And but thank you. That's really so sweet man.

I love you, man, I always have. It's really special for me as well, because I feel like I've said this to you, and I want to say out loud, it's the You had every reason when I met you to just keep doing what would have been the right business decision, the right professional decision, the right artist decision from a results standpoint, and I think your bravery encourage at your age and the maturity to step back and actually say, I'm going to go on a deep in journey.

Of infinite all the little seeds that we planted of like tension and love and hope and everything. It's all just everything's blooming. We're standing in the farm of just like like everything at the same it's almost overwhelming the amount that starts to happen in the harvest, and it's just yeah, this season.

And I'm so humbled that you allowed me to not only walk that parts of that journey, little parts of that journey with you, but have this opportunity today too, because it's rare that you get to live in these cycles with people. Yeah, especially when we're so busy and you know, and so I'm so grateful that this is the first of our hopefully forever cycles. Yes, sir, I'm with you all the way. I love you, rooting for you, and thank you. Jy, I've got your back through it all.

Thank you, man, I know you do.

Yeah, I really appreciate you.

Man to man.

We end every on purpose with a final five, which are fast five. You have to answer each question and one word to one sentences. Not superficial. I'm not like, what's your favorite you start getting question questionable one, Sean, these are your fast five. Questionable one. What is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

Wow, nothing's coming to mind.

That's good. I like that already.

It all sums up in an energy. I guess more.

That's just like anytime someone says something that just allows there to be more space, you know.

Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard.

To suck it up?

Question number three, how would you define your current purpose?

I would define my current purpose with just being committed to be the most honest version of myself in every moment. You know, I have a lot of trust in what that will do in this world.

And I think.

I've learned so much, like even just to be here, I've learned so much about following my truth into the dark and feeling like I'm letting people down, but how that led me into creating a really beautiful healing album and hopefully to how that will pick people up. And it's kind of all part of it.

Question for is what's the message to the fans with this album?

Sean and bring your tissues.

I love you, guys, and I am beyond grateful for your patience and your love. And it's a beautiful thing to be growing up at the same time as you, and so I hope a lot of the words and the stories resonate with you, and I hope you feel me, because I feel like we've been out of connection for a long time. And I just always want to be honest with you guys, no matter what, and so I hope you love it.

A little offshore of that, why was now the right time to come back for you?

There was a moment six months ago when Andrew and a couple of people I love, they kind of like were like, hey, can we just play you back some ideas you've sent us that we think are cool. And

Did you really want to leave in those first three.

Days, desperately.

Yeah, And it's funny how quickly I forgot I wanted to leave, and how quickly it just turned into passion and inspired to make something beautiful again, like almost like a night and day difference. That's how inspiration works sometimes.

Yeah, feel the fear and do it anyway exactly. Yeah, you're not going to wait for it to be free of fear and then take the step.

Yeah, no, no, no, The fear is like the greatest thing because you're scared of something, and that's something is probably something worth writing about if you're a writer.

You know. If some final question, we asked this to anyone who's ever been on the show. The question is, if you had to create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be.

The law would be to say what you really feel, you know, but to say it in a way that doesn't really hurt people, but like to speak the truth.

You know, speak your truth. You're going to get so much further.

I think with that that'd be a horrible law though. And Lars, yeah, I'm gonna get arrested if I don't say this, man, but that hair does not not your hair right now.

It's great.

I love that. Yeah, Sean, thank you, my brother. I appreciate you. Yes, it's been beautiful. It's been a lot of.

Fun, Yes it has.

It's been emotional. It's been deep and raw and vulnerable, just like the album. And I can't wait to see you perform live. I'm so excited.

Thank you, thank you.

If you love this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.

My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of.

The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength, I'm gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that.