When you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty.
You realized, Wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing. This is one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in hip hop.
Russ I know whatever I want, what I want, I love it.
I thought, I'm never going to get depressed. What does that even mean?
I don't need Any'll look and it's like, deep down you wanted everyone though. How strong of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself straight up?
Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.
The best selling author in the most The number one healthy wellness podcast Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week. To listen, learn and grow. Our mission and community is all about making the world happier, healthier, and more healed. And today's guest is someone who is a favorite of yours, of the community. He came on once before, you loved it this The clips from that episode are going viral every week on TikTok. We can't keep up with it. We
just keep sending stuff to each other. I've been so excited for this moment to have him back on the show, because when I have an instant connection with someone where you feel like you get along, you vibe, it's so rare that you want to make it happen again and again. We waited like two to three years, but here we are. I'm welcoming back. The One and only Russ. Russ is a thirty year old multi platinum rapper, singer, songwriter, producer,
best selling author. Russ proved that he didn't need a major label to surpass over ten billion streams on Spotify and Apple Music. Get on Forbes twenty nineteen thirty under thirty and make the Forbes Cash Kings at number twenty for most earned sellout arenas across the US and around the globe. I've become one of the most popular engage rappers and thought leaders in the world right now. If you haven't read it already, we talked about this last time.
Russ has self help book It's All in Your Head. I highly recommend. And now we're talking about is new album which is out now called Santiago. Please welcome to the show, the One and Only Russ.
Wow, what intro? What's going on here?
Man?
You have to do all of that stuff.
And it's such an interesting thing hearing like intros like that. I guess it snaps me into like being seven and being nineteen when all this was still just like a complete fantasy. It's hard to feel it. It's hard to
feel the success of it. And this is what I've like, we're just gonna dive right in, but it's hard to feel the success of it because a lot of me struggles with like just not feeling good enough for myself, so like none of it registers, you know, And that's what I've been working on, and that's kind of what Santiago addresses. A lot is sort of this like, yeah, made the Forbes this and plaques, but it didn't move the needle, you know.
Yeah, it's hard. How do you go about that? I mean, like you, I mean you dived in, So don't blame me. Now, you know, when you think about the idea of being enough for yourself, and how do you even start to comprehend what that even means? Because I think, as you were saying, when you're young, yeah, being enough just means what being enough means to the world. Like you're like, oh, if I get those sneakers, then I'll be enough because
my friends will think I'm cool. Or if you're into academics, you'll be like, oh, if I get this grade, my parents will think that I made it. And then all of a sudden, none of those things add up. So how do you even go about thinking about what being enough means, especially in a culture that's comparing and always putting you up against other people.
Yeah, it's so hard for me because I think it does start in childhood, and I think it started with, you know, wanting to meet the standard that my dad said, and you know my dad, who I love him, and disclaimer before like this interview goes more, It's like I love my parents and they have done I think a great job, and I don't blame them for anything. There's just realities that have happened that, like, you know, there's experiences that I have that I now have to deal
with and learn from, et cetera. But my dad's standard was perfection a lot of times, you know, and he was very critical and so for me, you know, his metric it was impossible to me. I ended up adopting it as my own, you know. And so the inner voice for a long time it was my dad's inner voice of you know, that's not good enough. Nah, you know, you got a ninety two on the test. If you
would have studied, you got a hundred. But it's still in a but you know, little things like that are shown him music early on and career stuff and just in general, right, And but that inner voice that used to be his became my own inner voice. So now like it becomes this sort of of inner critic that when I go platinum, it's like it doesn't do it. Maybe double platinum will maybe triple Oh how much money did you make?
Ten oh?
Maybe eleven million will make you feel good? And so you keep chasing the next thing, thinking that's what's going to make you feel good about yourself. And I think to reference, like the Rick Rubin interview. I think he mentioned something where it's like, you get the number one album, you get all this stuff, and it doesn't do what you wanted it to do, and you feel emptier than ever.
And I think that's kind of the place I got to was I got the money, the house, to this and whatever, and that's how you know there's really something missing, because how do you get all that and you still don't feel good? And it's a really empty feeling because most people in the world think that the reason why they're not happy and not feeling enough is all these
things that they'll probably never get. And it's kind of this beautiful, blissfully ignorant place to live because you just get to like always have this idea that nah, I know, like I'm gonna keep going towards this, and I know this is what's gonna give me happiness, even though you'll probably never get it right. Most people won't ever see.
A million dollars or whatever.
But for the people who get in by and I want no sympathy for like, oh, we don't feel bad for you.
You're a millionaire, get over it.
But it's like when you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty. You realize that, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing, and there's a bigger hole here, and now I need to grow down, you know, and I need to look internal because external didn't do it.
And that's what Oasis is.
What about on the album, right, Yeah, Oasis is the closest track to that feeling, or.
So Oasis was sort of this fool's paradise is what the idea behind that song was. It was like I got the house, the life. Everything on surface looked like, okay, you did it, and internally though, I was still a mess. I was joking with you, you know, off camera, like last time we talked, you know, I was thirty pounds over Wait, it was just proportioned nicely, so it didn't wasn't It wasn't like too big in any one place. But I was thirty pounds overweight. I was drinking too much,
I was eating too much. I had no discipline over my thoughts, my eating habits. I had no discipline over my sexual energy, things like that. So it was really like I was a glutton, you know. But the way that is dressed up sometimes you're a rock star you're a king, you know, And so oasis is about on surface. Yeah, you're eating good, you're you know, you're you're gaining weight, but because you're getting money and you're eating good and
you're sleeping with random women and drinking. But it's all good because look, another plaque just came in, and more money came in, another sold out show, and it was sort of poking Like that whole song is sort of like poking fun at me because I'm in my little oasis. I'm distracted by like, look at my house, look at my life?
What?
Like?
I love what you just said. You're like you're distracted, yeah, by the gold. Yeah, and you're distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques. When you're that distracted, how do you open up your eyes? Like how do you even get to a point now where you're able to look back and go? I was distracted. Now I'm a bit more awake, and I'm working on this stuff because I can imagine that it gets so loud.
You're a rock star, you're a king, you're all these things, and then all of a sudden you've got to kind of like quiet that down and go. But I'm still not happy. How do you get that breakthrough? Because I feel like we're all the best AT's setting ourselves up for failure. Yeah, and we're all the best at avoiding advice when it's good. Like I know when I'm wrong because when my wife says something and I know she's right, and I don't want to admit it because I know
she's right, and that's what. But it's that awareness piece is so hard. How did you what was the moment for you? Because you are killing it, you're still killing it. You looked well then to me, you looked well to me today like you're great, right, So, and I really enjoyed your company last time and I'm enjoying your company this time. So externally, yeah, you could argue, well, what's going on?
As men, we get good at masking it.
Yeah, that's part of like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but go and go for it. First of all, therapy is kind of what like not woke me up, but it helped. But something I learned in therapy is this idea that you know, society measures a man based off of how much they can carry, how far they can carry it, and how alone they can carry it. And I think for a lot of men,
we have become professional hiders of our pain. And so while I was quote unquote distracted, what woke me up to what was going on was that there was psychological warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway, you know, I like, I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down. But I knew it was there because I was pushing it down, and it just got to a point where I just had a breakdown one day. It just you push it down enough and at some point you can't push it anymore,
and it, you know, overflows in it. And what I learned is when you're burying it, burying it, bearing it, when it does finally just explode, it's always going to be.
At the worst time.
And that time came right before a European tour that I had scheduled, and I had to cancel it because I was like my body and spirit and mind just shut down. I just couldn't even do it. I couldn't even like go through the motions of acting like I could perform. And you know, through therapy and talking every week, you know, and really really being vulnerable and being honest
with my therapist, which I couldn't wait for. Like, getting a therapist has been at the top of my to do list for like four years, and I just never did. I never got around to it because I just always, once again was like, do I really need one?
To look how good my life is? Like nah, I think I'm dripping.
But it just got to this point, man, where I was like, I need to talk to someone because I feel like I'm going insane. It's just been so helpful because I'm like I want to figure out what's going on internally.
So it's like, well, I don't know how to feel, so let's act like it doesn't exist.
You know. I'm so glad you raised this because I've been looking for the person I'm about to introduce a conversation that I've been trying to find the right person to have it with, and it just clicked me in this moment that you're that person, like literally, and I think it's such an important conversation that I've been trying to navigate. I have it offline a lot, but I haven't really had it online, so this will be the
first time that I talk about it here. But it's like, you just raised that as a man especially we're good at masking it. And I think men in today's society, being a man in today's society is such an interesting time. And you come across to me as you know, like you're and you can describe in your own sense, but you're a confident man. You know you're a man's man. I'd say as well, like, I don't know.
How you see yourself. That's why I don't know how you see yourself.
I was going to ask you because you you so confidently are like, hey, man, I need to find help.
I went to therapy.
Yeah, but at the same time, you're a rapper on stage is like up in like the best bass and so I'm like, when you look at that paradox, I love that because I'm thinking about what is it that you think men are struggling with most and maybe it's even for your own friends, the people you hang out with, Like what do you think men are struggling within today's society? Because I don't feel we talk about that enough with like what the struggle is?
Yeah, I think I mean so much, But I think I think men are struggling with being in tune with their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they have permission from themselves to feel what they're feeling because society has told them get over it effectively, you know. And I think for me, that's what I did for
the you know, for the most part. And I think my generation let alone, like generations before me, like we all saw our dads probably just like get over it and figure it out, and you know, brush brush the dirt.
Off and keep going. And that's what I did.
And I would just put little trickles of what I was feeling in the music.
Like it's so funny, you know.
When I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with myself and got a therapist, I would go back and listen to old songs, like songs like Nobody Knows or songs like All to You, and it's like these were like such cries for help that I think made me feel more insane because I would put them out and they just became songs, you know, and it's sort of downplayed what was really going on, because it's like I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness
and pain and confusion and feeling lost and don't know what to do and turn it into two and a half minutes of music and now it just becomes numbers on a screen and streams.
And how loud is it at the shows?
And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly I forget that, Oh no, like this was like really what I was going through?
This isn't just like a lullaby. Yeah, I think you're right.
I feel like when I talk to people, I feel like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be a lot of things, to be successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity, figured out their mental health. And again, you know, every gender has their own pressures that come with it, but I think I know a lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure because they feel like you said that they shouldn't have it, like they're not allowed to have that pressure.
I think you're one of.
The few music guys that has found a way of intertwining mental health and music in a way that it's not cheesy and it's not like corny, and it's not like it comes across like when I listen to you, I'm just like, God, that's a bar that's like, you know, you can appreciate it just because it's good music. And then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself.
Was that like always at the forefront of when you got into music or was it something that evolved with time because of your journey, Because I think it's quite it's quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff in a way that doesn't come across as cheesy and corny. So how do how have you found a way of being able to do that?
Yeah, I think I always was looking for answers, you know, And I think I always as a consumer of music, I always like substance and lyrics and things that I could you know, things that meant something, you know, things that maybe could help me. And as an artist when I wanted to make my own I was trying to find answers. Like my creative side was trying to piece together these other sides of me, like what was going on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship,
with my career. Like the creative side of me would come in and be like, maybe this means that.
Maybe what you're feeling means this, maybe.
You know, And like like I said, there's like all these little like easter eggs. I guess throughout my catalog of me trying to figure it out. And so I think I was just naturally an am naturally a curious person and an ambitious person, and so like ambitious in the sense that I really want to figure out what is going on with me, Like I want to know why I think the way I think, where that came from, and I think in the past, it's funny when you're like you're a confident man, etc.
Etc.
I was omnipotent, and I've learned that that's not confidence.
You know, that's insecurity.
And you know I because I mean, this is so so multilayered. But it's funny your shirts as imperfections because it really stems from me being a perfectionist, right, So like me being a perfectionist, there's no room for me to not be right, there's no room for me to not know, like not act like I know everything and what's going on. And I got being a perfectionist from like the standard that my dad said, which ended up
becoming my own standard. So early on in my career, I had this omnipotence where like I knew everything, everything I was doing was right, and I felt like I had to act like that because if you're a perfectionist, there is no room for criticism. Perfectionists are trying to run from criticism, and help is coded as criticism to a perfectionist. So I didn't want any help, and if you I had to help, I took it as a critique and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist.
Wow, you know, like I'm trying to figure out the answers. So, like, dude, one thing you said to me last time. I've quoted this so many times in interviews when I get asked questions about like, oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways, and it's from our interview, and it's you said that when you sometimes get in the studio. At that time,
you were like, I get rid of all my friends. Yeah, so I can be in there alone and make weird sounds that I wouldn't make when people are in the room because I might be scared of what they think. And I've said that to so many people, and everyone's always like quite blown away or taken aback because I guess it's not a common thing that artists do. And it stayed with me for so long. But I was interested by what you just said, Like how did your
immediate I guess your immediate circle. I'm assuming you're around people that you love, but how do you think? Then the widest circle responds to you saying things like I need help, therapy is good for you, and be like you know, like do you have do you feel like? The wider circle goes automatically like do you think the world's got to a place now where we're like, yes, Russ,
that makes sense, You're right? Or do you still le people around you going no, you don't need therapy, man, you just need to go smoke or blow some cash or like yeah, because you come from the rap music world, I wonder what do you hear?
I think my friends, like my immediate circle. My friends were all very supportive. My family was supportive as well, but they're obviously like, what's going on because my identity has been attached when it comes to my family, my identity has been attached to helping them, you know. That's how I felt safe. That was the role I played. And I've never asked for help. I've never received help.
I've never come off like I needed help. And so when they saw that I needed therapy, I'm canceling tour it's like nine one one in my house, you know, as far as like my family and so they were just like really concerned. But I think as far as the world's concerned, I do think the world is more open and receptive to the idea of men needing help and that's okay. And even if they're not open to it, that is naturally where this is going. Like, I just feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point.
And this whole idea.
That men have to just be like you know, military men who show nothing, no emotions and like figure it out and don't ask for help and we do it ourselves.
It's like that is not sustainable.
You know, it's just not Men need to communicate and collaborate with each other and you know, not feel so alone.
How have you found the reaction to that from like straight women? Do straight women find men more or less attractive or good partners based on that kind of approach and vulnerability, Like, I think.
It depends on the women.
Yeah, And I think a lot of times there's great women out there who will respond well to them.
There's women who won't.
I think a lot of times with men, you know, they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what a life lot of women have displayed, which is like, now I'm not attracted to you. And it's like, you know, I said on enough on Santiago, some women looking at you lesser if there's tears on your cheek, but if there's tears tattooed, that same girl as a freak. So they're attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak.
So it's like it's really interesting because when you talk to when you talk to women, when you thank you, but it's like when you talk to women and you like kind of see where their heads at, you see that they kind of like a lot of women want this sort of rough and rugged guy who's like he's tough and all these things, but like you don't want him to talk about it because now he's soft. But it's like, so you want him to have some pain because that's what makes him the rough and rugged, you know,
but you just don't want to hear about it. And so where does he go? Then it's oh, so you just want him to be quiet. But then you're wondering why he can't open up to you. Oh, well, he just doesn't open up to me, which one is it. This isn't build a bear, you.
Know what I mean?
And I feel women too, who It's like dudes want the girl doesn't. That's why it's like, find someone that's compatible with you and gets you and rock out and forget about the rest.
Yeah, but I love the way you do. I mean, the lyric speaks for itself, but that is summed up so well. And by the way, everyone who's listening, I'm not trying to take sides or you get where I'm coming from, Like, I'm just trying to come from a place of like where are we It's exactly what Russia said, like we want something to be tough, but without the pain, without talking about the pain.
And it's like that's just not real. It doesn't exist.
The idea that someone is tough and hasn't been through pain is non existent. And at some point that person is going to need to express or connect or collaborate, as you said, either with you or other people about their pain. This also applies to women, It applies to every gender that people who've been through pain are going to have stories to tell. And if you want someone tough, chances are that they've got grit and resilience because they've
had massive loss in their life. Well, so I think you just summed up that is exactly what I was trying to get through it, Like pain.
Is a prerequisite for being a tough, hardened man, hardened from what you know, hardened by what pain experience. So it's like, I just I do think it's really interesting for the group of women who want vulnerability and openness emotionally from men, who they also almost shame into thinking that keep your pain to yourself though.
Yeah, and then there's the other side. I find I have a lot of friends whore like my man doesn't open up right, Like, I have a lot of friends who're like, look, I want to be there for him, like I'm ready to listen to him, Like I want him to be more open about his way, because men are scared that if.
They do, oh wow, never mind, this is unattractive.
Yeah, yeah, because it goes against what we as men have been taught makes a strong man. It's not personal to you, it's how society has set us up. We've been brainwashed, you know, would you say yours is just you're so seeking the answers, like what gave you the courage to break that as someone who's a stage performer, Yeah, crushing it? Who has who has actually everything that ninety
nine percent of men won. Yeah, what gave you the Was it courage or was it just like I just need this, like you know, yeah, it was out of desperation, to be honest, And also, I think like being isolated from society plays like a part in it. Like I'm not out and about, I'm not trying to be on the scene and make friends. I like there's a part of like being in my bubble that sort of gives me that safety net of like, Okay, if I'm vulnerable,
it's like, who does that? Really, I'm not worried if that girl, this person is going to feel a way like it's kind of just me, you know that.
How do you keep that distance?
I feel like people struggle with that even if they're not and in entertainment, Yeah, people get glued to social media, they get addicted. How are you keeping distance when you're so interconnected to the industry? In one sense, I think it's also just a testament though to my fans I think I've had, Like I'm really fortunate to have the kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters of me. And from the beginning, I've tried to be as authentic.
As I was in that moment, and I've tried to be vulnerable and introspective, and I think all of that played a part. And when I did have to cancel tour and when I have let fans in on like the journey of mental health and therapy, then being open to it because this isn't coming out of complete left field. As far as the introspection and the vulnerability, I'm a
vulnerable artist. I never was like that worried like if my male fans would be like, oh, we're out, because it's like y'all are singing losing control.
Yeah you know what I mean.
Like y'all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs, so you know what I'm saying straight up, And it's like everyone's at a different place in their journey and like, however, like wherever you're at is fine.
Yeah.
I remember that when I was when I was a teenager, when I thought I was that's when I thought I was cool, right, It was like I was that kind of person that didn't understand and how someone could get depressed because I didn't get it like it was like that four years ago.
It's so bad. Yeah, you have that mind to you like what does that mean? Right?
Like, and then you go through your own stuff and you're like, oh, I get it now. And I found that for me, I found that life has this really strange way of making you go through things that you thought shouldn't affect anyone. Right, So if you in your head have an idea of like, I don't understand that, I don't know how that affects someone, just wait literally,
and that has happened to me so many times. And so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch it and I go, let's get rid of that thought, because let me actually try and be curious about it rather than look at it in a condescending way, because chances are if I see it in a derogatory way or a negligent way, I'm going to have to experience it just for life to teach me that it's real.
Yeah. Yeah, I got humbled for sure by.
That kind of thing where it's like I realize back to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh, I don't know everything, you know, because I thought I'm never going to get depressed?
What does that even mean?
Like what's that you know? And then all of a sudden you're like, okay, so this can happen to me.
Yeah, describe that for me? What was that for you?
Like, I think you hear and I think I can ask you this because I feel like you articulate your thoughts so well and you really get in there with what's going on. Like so many people have said this, right, this idea of like you get the triple platinum, you get the money, and it doesn't work, Like what actually? And I'm asking you because I feel like you get in there? What is actually not working about that?
Like?
What is it about that that doesn't help you feel better or solve the void?
What is it? Why does it not work?
Because I think so many people say that, but then everyone goes, oh, yeah, but you're a millionaire, you can say that. Yeah, but let's let's try to help people out there. Because I still like I if I prefer being financially safe and successful in doing what I love, I do prefer that to when I was close to being broke and not successful in what I did. I
much prefer my life right now. But I also know that the thing that gives me deep meaning and keeps me going is my purpose that's connected to my work. As long as I feel I'm positively impacting people, I'm serving people, and I'm using my voice to make a difference in people's lives. That is what actually makes me happy. And then what happens around it is like the best bonus of all time.
Yeah.
See, that's a good value to have, though, is like in good perspective for me, the plaques or whatever. It not working is really just because you're clearly or I was clearly seeking validation subconsciously, and I thought that becoming a big artist and plaques and all that was going to make me feel validated and make me feel like I belong and make me feel approved and make me feel good enough. And when I got all that and I still had all of those issues, That's what.
I mean by it not working.
And I agree too, like I prefer my life now and then the alternative.
But the hole is still there.
And I think at seventeen, when I started like really going after this, I don't know if I had the depth in the awareness to know what I was going after. Like I'm chasing approval and validation. But when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors in certain times in the studio or whatever where I was, like where I can tell I wanted people to validate me, and I want and I thought that rap in the industry was gonna pat me on the back, you know.
And that's kind of what I talk about.
And I love you boy, which is like, you know, I just I replaced my dad with the industry, which is really like wild, right, because I felt like as a kid wanting just approval of your dad as a son, you know, when you don't get it, you can feel like ostracized kind of and just like you don't belong, you're not good enough in all these things.
And it's so strange that as a white guy.
What I chose to pick to replace my dad to give me approval was a craft that that I'm ostracizing off bad, you know what I mean. It's like it's like I picked the hardest thing to get approval from. Like I replaced my dad with an industry and started to wrap I wanted praise in acknowledgment and picked the profession that people who look like me don't get, you.
Know what I mean?
So it's like it was almost like I guess if I could like analyze where my head was at when I was seventeen, maybe because it's like, if I could get approval from this thing that I love, this genre, this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I'm officially approved, you know, because I know how hard it is to get approval from that. And I don't know it just but it really stems from once again not having the self approval and the self validation and thinking that someone else is
going to give it to you. And I remember talking with my therapist and he was like, oh, I think. I said like yeah, but you know, if I do get a number one album or number one and go number one on the Billboard Hot one hundred, and this person says, I'm great, I'm sure, like I'll feel really good. He's like, you probably will for about twenty minutes, and then I think you'll have your lowest moment of your life,
you know. And I agree, you know, because when I have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long and I'm right back to like I'm lower because that's another thing on the list that didn't do it. That's another thing that didn't fill the whole. You know, Forbes List nope, Platinum nope, by mom House nope.
Like none of it. You know, I see what you're saying.
I want that to register with people because what Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's great in and of itself. Yeah, it just doesn't feel the hole inside, Like, it doesn't solve the fact that I don't feel better about who I am and myself. It's beautiful to buy your mama house. That's awesome, Like it's good for her, it's great like that. That's not the point. The point is it doesn't change how I feel about my level of self worth and self esteem.
Yeah.
The point is like, if I thought that buy my mama house and making the four of us and going platinum was going to make me feel validated, approved and like I'm good enough, then that's the mistake. That's where you're going to feel emptier than ever because you're going to do that, and that's not what's.
Going to do it.
You know what's really interesting for me listening to you is so I'm kind of like where you're at with your parents, where I love both my parents and independently and in the same way. I have a good relationship with both of them today, but it wasn't always. It wasn't that way externally and with my dad especially. So my dad didn't validate me or even support me when I was growing up like he would if he turned up to a swim competition, because I used to swim
a lot. When I'd look up at the stands, he'd be reading his newspaper, so or if I was. I played rugby for my school and it was one of my favorite things that I made it onto my school's rugby team. I used to be a lot bigger growing up, and he would never turn up to support me, and so my dad wasn't there. And that was really interesting because at the time it made me just want to get approval of my friends and like be cool and whatever, and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff.
But what it ultimately led me to was I got to make my own rules of what success were. So not getting his version, he never had a version of success for me, like he almost didn't have like this is what you have to be to be successful, and so I've always seen it as I just got freedom to define what kind of man I wanted to be, because my dad didn't really define what kind of man
he cared I would be. And it's really interesting now because when I look at my relationship with him today, he's more like a friend than he is my dad because he wasn't really fathering me. And I think where I got really lucky, Like this really was like one of those moments and you feel fortunate. Is I projected that lack of fatherhood fortunately onto the monks. Oh so like, because that wasn't what I was meant to be and
I wasn't spiritual. And I really look at that as like I didn't have any positive role models in my life. I didn't have any positive male role models in my life. And the monks were positive male role models. And I met them at when I was eighteen years old, so important, so important, And the crazy thing about them is they don't validate you. Wow, So it was like even more challenging.
But it's like you see an amazing role model who's showing you the right way, but is not trying to falsely validate or approve you, So you.
Still have to figure yourself to do it yourself. You still have to.
They're teaching you what you just said, how to do it yourself like that, it's still you on your own. You got to live in your own mind. And when you realize that, it's like, yeah, I live in my own mind. Yeah, these are my thoughts what you just said earlier. I either have to em translating my dad's voice, yeah, into becoming my voice, or I'm actually gonna choose what I want my thoughts to be, right, And that's what they were training us in so through so much fortune,
and I got to that point. Yeah, and even till this day, I'm constantly just practicing that because again I haven't perfected it. I still get into the place where you start hearing the noise.
It's so funny because that's why I ended the album with just me singing it was you all along, Because all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all of it is things that I have to give myself, and I just I thought that everything and everyone else was going to give it to me.
Tell me some of the ways you've been giving it to yourself, because you are getting, like you said, like a lot of people get to the point, you've got to when they're unsuccessful, so like they wait till the record's now not getting the downloads and the streams, and like they're not really winning the stuff and things are on going on, and then you go, oh, this wasn't it. You're realizing it. Wow, things are hot, right, Like things
are good, your new album dropping. The music sounds great, by the way, I wanted to say, like I I was thankful that your team sent me there. Of course the album before and it's I can't wait to play it more and more and I can't wait for everyone to hear it.
Music's awesome, And I just go.
You're winning and you realized it, Like what are some of the things you're doing to validate yourself?
Like what are you doing?
Like that's what I'm still working on. You know, what are some of the practices to have it? I think, you know, it's having good values as one of them, values that like I can control, you know, I think honoring the gift is important celebrating myself, and I think the way that I've celebrated myself which makes me feel good about myself is to honor my gift. And so for example, like going to the gym for me to lose thirty pounds of fat, not muscle, right, thirty pounds
of fouls crazy. I did it through shame, you need to lose weight, you know, and just talking crazy to myself. And it still worked. But I lost the weight, and I still didn't feel good about myself. I still had a breakdown, you know. And so now I'm looking at going to the gym as I'm celebrating my health and my body. I'm honoring the gift of being alive and being mobile, you know, and celebrating the gift of my creativity by going to the studio instead of looking at going to the studio.
Like I need to catch a hit otherwise I'm a loser.
It's like, nah, I'm celebrating myself every time I go to the studio.
It's a celebration that's already a great mindset. Yeah, it's better than where I was at.
I think what we don't realize is even if critical, judgmental, negative motivation works, Yeah, the problem is now that's all you have in your toolkit to motivate yourself. Right, So when you've lost the way you wanted to lose, you're now motivating yourself still through that criticism, judgment, and like talking down to yourself. And even with the music. I
love what you just said. You feel so much more abundant when you walk into something and you go, I'm just here because I'm grateful to be alive.
I'm happy to.
Be here as opposed to God if I don't write the next here. And I know so many musicians that say that to me and the music, it's the hardest place. And I feel like I have so many people in my life that are friends that feel that pressure because again, like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from their management, their team, their fans, their fans. Potentially, if they're not connected to them, you're going to become irrelevant. You never
be as big as so and so. Didn't you see what they just did and so if you don't have that healthy dialogue internally. And I do think it is that for me as well. It's like I spend I spend so much time alone just to monitor my internal dialogue. Scary because it's the only way because when I'm alone, I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind, whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by people and noise, it's natural that it's going to seep in.
Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in because looking and it scary.
That's what I was doing.
I think that's the biggest reason why people don't want to spend time of.
Course, especially men, because like we once again know that or we have like believed that our emotions are relevant and ignore them, you know, be like just completely avoid feeling anything, and that's what makes you a man. And so I think spending time alone and meditation and doing like you know, personal work is a very like it feels feminine to men, it feels.
Soft and there.
Like something interesting that I stumbled on is like, how strong of a man are you? And how brave of a man are you? If you're scared to face yourself?
Wow?
Yeah, yeah, that's the real bravery. Yeah, sit in a room with yourself. That's like, that's courageous.
Yeah.
I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier, that it's the perfection and positivity issue that we keep thinking that everything has to be like positive and sun And when I look inside of myself, I see tons of a dark side and stuff that I don't want to see. But I also know that that's not me
because of how we were trained. The idea that you know, the concept in all of the monk teachings is that the sun is always shining, it's just often covered by clouds, and so when you look up at the sky, all you see is the clouds. You don't see the sun, and you think I am the clouds. So when you look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and you think I'm darkness. Yeah, but actually the Sun's always there,
it's just you can't see it. And so the light that me and you are, the light that everyone who's listening and watching is is always there. It's just we're just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the rain and the you know, and we then judge it and see it as negative rather than the fact that, hey, wait a minute, I'm I'm just going to find the light, and I understand that sometimes it's going to be a cloudy day, just like it is outdoors.
Yeah, And that's what led me to feel in like a fraud. That song's amazing, That's what that is is because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud. And so then when people give you a compliment. You're like, they're giving you a compliment on you being the sun. And for me, I'm like, if only you knew I was a cloud, I would look at my shadow self and the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. It would make it impossible for me to receive love and
compliments or anything positive. Also tied in with feeling like a fraud was me having to analyze, well, why did my parents getting divorce actually affect me? Why did the hate coming in actually affect me? Because on surface, it felt so vapid, like your parents broke up and people don't like you, Big deal, right, But when I through therapy and through really growing down, that's when I learned, like, okay,
hold on. Since I was a kid, my role and my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally, you know, And I talk about it on I Love You Boy, where my dad was very reactive and my mom was like fatalistic, and I was just the one running around knocking on everyone's door to make sure like everyone was good after a big fight or whatever, you know, because I was worried, genuinely worried, so the stakes were
super high. They felt like life or death, you know, like maybe there was going to be self harm or something. And so my identity was tied to saving my family and helping them. So when my parents got divorced, it was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the savior. It wasn't just like your parents broke up, roor you're twenty three to get over? It was like, who am I if my parents break up? Who am I if I can't save us?
Right?
And then with the hate coming in, I got my self worth from being approved and liked by everyone, and so when I got hate and a lot of it, it wasn't just you have haters get over? It was who am I if people don't like me? So that's what threw me for a spin. It was I feel like a fraud.
That is so deep.
Yeah, your identity is based on the roles you played, right, and if you can no longer play that, who am I? And who is?
What is your identity? Right?
And that's where it's hard because that means going back to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is that your values is the best place to start, because your values is something you can control. If you only value yourself for a role you play for other people which you don't control right now, that's not your value, right and when they break up, well it goes astray.
You don't know who you are anymore. That is devastating blow.
Yeah, yeah, especially when I didn't know why I was so upset by it, you know, I was like, this shouldn't be effected. I'm twenty four to twenty five, Like what's the big deal? But it just didn't go away. And then it was funny that, like the hate and them divorcing came at the same time.
And now when I look back, I'm like, this was.
All like by design, you know, this was all to help me grow down. But yeah, it's like, you know, when you've gotten your identity from a role that you've been playing for so long and that role is taken away from you or threatened, it's like, yeah, who are you?
You said that phrase twice just now, growing down? Growing up? Yeah, what does that mean? Because I like that.
I think a lot of times in my career I was just focused on like external growth and like am I getting more followers? Am I getting more money? Am I getting more plaques? And am I growing up?
You know?
And I wasn't focused on growing down into like the core of who I am and getting to the root of it and to the truth of myself. And that's what I've been trying to do. That's what this album is, is like me growing down, trying to like get deeper and deeper into who I actually am, you know, because I'm just trying to operate from a place of authenticity and truth. And it's hard to feel authentic and be
authentic when you're operating from a place of shame. Like I'm ashamed of who I am and I'm insecure about who I am, So how can I be authentic? Because authentic being authentic with me and being insecure and being and it's like I can't be that, especially in rap, you know what I mean. So it's like gotta mask it, gotta be omnipotent.
You know what was the darkest and scariest thing you saw when you started growing down?
I think the biggest thing I the like darkest thing and thought I had was like I don't like myself.
That was like the heaviest and what was it that you didn't like?
I was ashamed about how I've handled my career. I was very mad about at like twenty three year old me. I would beat him up daily. I was mad about you know, me being reactive towards people. I just didn't like anything about you know, myself. And that was a real low point of like, once again, fraud, if only the world knew, you know, and I have self help book, right, And I mentioned that on fraud as well.
It's like, who am I like to.
Try to give people a book like and for me, the book so successful and has helped a lot of people. But I look back at that book, I'm like, it's like vapid to me now, you know. And I'm glad it's helping people. But and I shouldn't. I shouldn't denounce any version of me that's like you're watching it in
real time what I do. And yeah, that's the heaviest, darkest thing that I've come to terms with, not that it's a reality of mine that I want to come to terms with, but getting to a place of like, I don't I don't like myself.
That was the lowest point.
I love what you just said that it's like being authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure, right, and that that lost version of me just got me through that, and that doesn't make it good or bad, but it was a reality. But we think being authentic means being like smooth and like organized.
What I've learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity and feeling nervous is step one. Because what happened to me, and I think what happens to a lot of people is rejecting your insecurities leads to self destruction. So for example, like I used to do interviews super drunk, right Why because I was nervous and insecure about just being my authentic self. I didn't know how to be that version,
so I would drink to knock the edge off. So like, the rejecting of my insecurity led to self destructive habits and overall a result.
That I don't like, you know.
So yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and saying that it's okay to be insecure and feel nervous. Yeah, And I think for me it's like nah, like especially as men like nah, I'm not allowed to like we got.
To be the man, you know. Yeah?
Yeah, I often like even when I if I ever end up, I don't go to many parties or events and things like that. But if I ever have to where I do go for a specific purpose, and it was someone it was what it was on the Trevor Noah Interview. When Trevor came on the show, he said to me, he goes, Jay, you always seem really comfortable whenever I see you somewhere, and I was like, that's
because I only really go to places I have a purpose. Like, I was like, if I don't have a purpose there, I was like, if you ever see me uncomfortable, it's because I don't have a purpose, then I don't know what I'm doing there. And I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about.
Is funny enough.
My team was like, Oh, you should definitely go to this event. It's really important and stuff, and so I went along and I just felt really like insecure there and useless because I didn't have a role. I didn't have a purpose. I wasn't representing what I believe I go to. Obviously I was representing myself, but I mean I wasn't there to represent anything bigger than me showing up.
And I found that when I do feel like that, I just go up to one other person that I feel I could connect with and just be like, hey, are you feeling insecure too?
Because I am?
And it's that and it's amazing because everyone's feeling in You're like, especially at like these big events that like, no one there's no one, no matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who's that an award show, an event or a part or anything that is feeling anything but insecure. I've not met them at least, right, It doesn't that break the wall down? Literally as soon
as you do that, it's like it goes away. It's the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge, and they're looking at you and you seem to have it all the way to get together. Meanwhile you're panicking inside and now they feel like, well I got to have it all the way together and more of tense and just like acting, and if we could just be like, hey.
Is everyone nervous? Like it's almost like let's all stand here naked. Like that's what that does emotionally, you know what I mean, It's like, all right, cool, now let's like now let's continue.
Yeah.
Yeah, And that happens in all like you know, it happens in family events. It happens at weddings, it happens at holiday events, like it happens in normal life. You don't this isn't just about the entertainment industry like it happens everywhere. Yeah, And I fully agree with you that it's because we're just resisting in your words, like resisting that insecurity. Yeah, what's an insecurity that you were resisting
for the longest time? Like what would you say was an insecurity that you've just been holding onto for not.
Feeling like I don't belong. That's probably like one of the biggest ones being a white guy in rap in hip hop with no co sign within the culture to sort of make me feel like I do belong. It was a massive insecurity of mine, and I just came in guns blazing, like I don't need any y'all look, and it's like, deep down you wanted everyone though you wanted help, deep down, you know, but you masked it by well, if I'm not going to get it, I'll do it myself. And that became like a really big
like brand and model for me. And I don't think people understand that my song do It Myself and that energy it was survival. It wasn't like, if you have people willing to help, I hope you should tell them. No, it was I didn't have help. I wish I did, but I didn't, so I had to do it myself.
As there anyone who's ever reached out in the industry that you feel has not co signed obviously, but like giving you a bit of that kind of nurturing or has it still always been kind of like I'm making I.
Think I've met a lot of great people in the industry who have given me validation and like you're great, You're dope, but like, yeah, I mean I've never been
like taken under someone's wing, you know. It was always just kind of like me and my manager are just like going at this thing, you know, And I'm trying to be more proud of my younger self as much as I want to beat him up for how he like was omnipotent in a maniac, but it's like for what you were going through that you crushed, you know, like I don't know how you did all that, And that's what I love you, boy. That song is about, especially on that third verse where it's like, you know,
saying you deserve a pat on the back. You know, it's just like I've never given myself a pat on the back, and I wanted to take that song to like as an opportunity to give myself the much needed, you know, pat on the back.
Yeah, and compassion inspired by that song.
If you saw, like if you if instead of me, your younger self was sitting in front of this is a therapy exercise, right, yeah, instead of me, If your youngest self was sitting in front of you right now, like sitting in this seat, what does he need to hear? No advice, but what does he need to hear?
What does he need to hear?
He needs to hear that you're okay, you're safe, and I got you.
That's what he needs to hear. And what do you think he'd say back? Probably I don't need your help.
Yeah, it's really interesting, how like what I think all of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and more grace.
And the younger version of me.
Needs that so bad, needed that so bad, and I didn't get it, and he didn't know how to receive that help and receive that compassion. And I don't know, if you know, if I was talking to him and he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep trying because.
I know that's what he really needs.
He just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like it's going to be okay, like he's allowed to make mistakes.
You know. That's the other thing, once again, being a perfectionist.
It's like it really is like hindering when it comes to everything, like accepting help, because once again, help is coded as criticism as a perfectionist, feeling good about anything you've done because you could have always done better, so you didn't quite nail your standard of perfection. And I just think, like that's what I'm trying to get to now,
is like giving myself more grace. And I talk about it on Tunnel Vision, where I say, I want to stop thinking that I got to go through hell to get the credit I desperately need to give to myself.
You know, you can just do this an easier way.
It's a most so hard being a high performa who gives grace to themselves, Yeah, because that's the hard part, right. It's like I want to perform at the best, but I know I need to be nice to myself. But I can't be too nice because if I'm too nice to myself, then I can't perform the best, and it's like this fight inside of you. Yeah, I think it comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier, where it's like if your tool kit is only shame and like dark motivation, then you're just gonna use that
and it's not sustainable. I think for me, the light motivation is like, you know, I love what I'm doing, you know, when I'm on stage, I love the fans, I love performing, and as long as I did my best, I have to be okay with that.
You know.
I can say, okay, you know, I know I can do better than that, but tonight I did my best and it's easier said than done. Like I'm working on that. But I think that's the place to start, is just knowing, like did you do your best with the resources that you had? And to think that you were supposed to just be this all knowing entity, it's like that's arrogance, you know. But that's why I would beat myself up a lot. It's like, how did you not know?
You know? But it's like you're allowed to not know everything.
That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. Actually to look back and think I wouldn't have done anything better. I'm glad that. Yeah, I had to just go through that, and that's why I was back Then's what I was.
Those were like I based my decisions in the past off of what I knew back then and what felt true to me back then, what felt authentic, and with the reservoir of knowledge I had back then, that's.
What I based my decisions off of.
Obviously, now seven years later, ten years whatever it is, I would make different decisions. But it's like, I can't be mad at twenty three year old me that he didn't know what thirty year old me.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's so hard for me to not want to beat him up, Like you're such an idiot. All you had to do was like read this one book and you would have even been better off. You know, sometimes it feels like the answer was right.
There, But that's what it is, right Like, we have this tabit as humans where we judge ourselves off of one conversation and one event, one performance, one song, one meeting. And what's really interesting thing is about that is that we then project that onto other people, where we judge them on one song, one moment, one interaction rather than looking at someone as this story of a human And it's fascinating to me that you would never ever pick up a book and read one page and judge the
whole book. No one really does that. You would read some of the book at least. But it's like with ourselves and with others, we don't see them as a story. We see them as a.
Page and right, it's so brutal.
Though it's so brutal.
It's so brutal, I do it to myself, and I think I think in the world of social media too.
You're not allowed to make mistakes.
Your one mistake is the book that just tells me everything I need to know about you and how you treat yourself. Because I know like I tend to be and this is not a great thing, a very judgmental person. And I justify it by saying, relax, I judge myself too. It's like, that's not good though, you know, and it's but I do what you said. I'd look at one event and be like, you don't deserve anything because of that one convo or that one tweet or that one.
Not realizing that at that point that was where that person was right. And actually we open people up to change, including ourselves, when we recognize that our capacity for change can increase if you look back at an event like you're saying, and you're like, I actually appreciate That's what I knew then. I didn't do something I was proud of, but that's what I knew then. Now that I think, there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that
now that I know better, I do better. And the idea of if you don't accept that that's possible for you and others, that's what actually keeps you in prison because you keep saying no, no, no, that's who you are. That event ten years ago is who you are, and that's who you'll ever be.
So tough, that's so true.
It's tough, but I mean in social media, you're not allowed to change your mind. That also keeps people, especially celebrities and people in the public eye, like into this prison where it's like no, no, no.
No, what you said.
You believed what you said ten days ago, ten years ago, you better still believe that or you're fake, like and it's crazy because you're allowed to change your mind. And not only are you allowed to change your mind, you're supposed to change your mind. You're supposed to now have a new belief system. It's not like Rick Rubin talked about it with you, and I thought it was so
spot on. It's like if you still have the same beliefs you did twenty years ago upon learning new things, and you're not growing like you know, but I think that's why you got to like remove yourself from social media and what the world in the mob of the internet and stop trying to reconcile with them, reconcile with yourself, and give yourself the permission to change your mind.
Yeah.
Yeah, I've what something when you think that you have changed your mind on from let's say like maybe ten years ago, or maybe if you need to go back longer, twenty years ago. Like I'll share one of mine. Mine was when I was young, I didn't because I grew up in this mindset. I believed that people who had money had to do something dodgy to get money. Yes, because that's the language that I was raised in. Like we always heard that, like, oh yeah, but he doesn't pay his taxes.
Right.
If I saw a nice car and I've been like my family would be like oh yeah, yeah, but they always do that dodgy business on the side, and so in my head, anyone who had money must be doing something wrong to have money, and that not only did that limit me from appreciating others or admiring or learning from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was good for me and possible for me.
Right, because you would have had to do because I would have had to do dogy stuff.
And I thought I was a good person, so I don't I'm not going to do anything. I would never do anything bad. So so you'll never get money, yeah, exactly right, And then all of a sudden start realizing where like you need to meet And this is why I think, that's why I love the podcast, because I want to show people or show sides of people, or let people show sides of themselves where people can go, oh,
that is possible. I can be a rapper, yeah, and go to therapy like I can be, you know, I can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this, and work on myself like that. There is an and as opposed to like this, you know finite yeah exactly. So for me, that was a big one for me of recognizing that you can make money with integrity. You could use it in service, you could it could be used proactively for purpose, And that was a massive limiting
belief and negative belief I had. What was something for you that you that you changed your mind on.
I think the big thing for me was thinking that I was always right. Ooh, that's good.
That's the biggest one for me because I was operating in this place once again of omnipotence, just that I knew everything, everything I did was right, every decision I've ever made was right because look in my life, clearly, everything I've ever done was right, and everything I say is right everything I know. So I got to a place now where I'm so much more curious and I'm so much more humble in the sense of like, I'm open to being wrong, because it's like, I believe what
I believe, but I'm open to changing my mind. I'm open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me being open minded and curious about it. I'm open to not always being right. And I think that is a much better like starting place.
And that's It's really interesting because everything we're saying is basically that paradox, Like we were saying, you want to be ambitious, but you gotta have grace for yourself. You want to be you want to know your values, but you want to be open to learning more and changing them.
And it's almost like everything is this And I think that's where we struggled the most, because whether it was parenting, whether it was school, whether it was is our background, we were always told that there was one right answer, right, right, like you have to get us in the back of the book exactly, yeah, yeah, And it's like there's one right answer that everyone has to get to and if your one mark off the answer, then it's the wrong answer. And the truth is that life is so variegated, it
is so gray. It is as you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, there's so many layers to this.
Yeah.
So it's like one answer is material stuff doesn't make you happy, right, But it's like when you broke down the layers of like, actually, why did my parents divorce make me unhappy? It's because this is and so like everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven't. I don't know if our brain our brain almost needs not an app but our brain needs the ability to
be able to understand how everything is so multi layered. Yeah, but it's so much easier to just put someone in a box and go that's what I'm judging.
And just be more flexible. Yeah.
And I think Atomic Habits talks about like keeping your identity small, and I thought it was so genius. Talks about, you know, there's athletes who their identity is, I'm an athlete, I'm a point guard. And what happens when you're not
playing basketball anymore? Though, and they have this identity crisis and sometimes it gets really you know, severe, and he talks about how like instead of saying I'm an athlete, how about saying I'm a hard worker who you know works well with teams and did it and so that you can still get you can still apply what your strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of your life after being an athlete is done. And I thought that was so powerful because it's so easy to get tied up into.
I'm a rapper or I'm at this or I'm at that.
And you start trying to like do things based off of the perception of yourself. And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who you are and just you know, be open.
What's something that you were very I guess inflexible about, inflexible about, and now that you've become more flexible about in your identity.
I think being a man and being what I thought that means, like being not showing any emotion, not showing like anything is affecting me, not receiving help, doing it myself, all these things like that, to me is the most valuable thing that I'm now flexible on is because I've learned that their strength and vulnerability and their strength in being honest, and their strength in collaboration, you know, learning from a positive male role model who's older than you
and just can give you, you know, new wisdom, new knowledge. It's like their strength in collaboration. I think we've talked about it in therapy. It was this documentary that my therapist was talking about like and he was talking about how like alpha males who lead by dominance via like fear are often like exiled or killed, and the ones who lead through collaborate and cohesion like like exhibit peace
and like people love them. And it's so funny because I think growing up like we would idolize those male figures who were the like just dominant, you know, and just invoke fear and all these things. And I'm just trying to help myself, and I'm also trying to help my fans. And then on a real, real specific level, I'm trying to be a lighthouse for young men that can look at me and say, you know what, I don't have to have it all figured out because he doesn't.
And if he's allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes. I'm trying to get men and people to just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace.
I love what you were saying about leader is because I feel like there is that perception that leaders have to be stoic and strong and cold.
Yeah.
And it was really interesting to me because I'm still close with my monk teachers, and like they're the kind of people that would come and sit in the back on the floor of a class and listen to a young monk give a talk, and that was considered humility, and the strength of a leader was like they weren't enforcing their authority, like they would always say, like a real leader doesn't. I would always hear them say this, like a real leader doesn't demand respect, they command it, right,
It's just it's natural for them. They don't have to walk into the room and all eyes on me, They don't have to do something big to gain attention. They actually would come on and put the spotlight on you. But it's interesting because that isn't our general belief around leaders. We almost want to be pushed around and moved around to think someone's powerful. It's almost like if someone's kind and gracious, you kind of think of them as.
Like a soft and a pushover. Yeah.
Whereas and so I think there's so much rewiring that almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership.
Or I know, and I'm not like the epitome of no no, no where neither should be. But it's like, I agree, I think there's a rewiring that has to happen on what it means to be a man. And I think men need to also stop looking for what it means to be a man from women, and women need to stop even caring what men say when it comes to what does it mean to be a woman's We don't know each other's experiences, you know. Men need more male collaboration, positive male collaboration positive role models.
And I think it's what you said earlier, like knowing that we're wrong if we are sitting with someone to learn about them, go into it going I probably don't know what you're going through right now, right and I'm probably wrong as opposed to like, yeah, I already know, I've got you figured out, Like all men are like this, well women are like this or or whatever it may be, which which is kind of how we live in the world.
What does anything do you sleep?
Well?
What keeps you up at night? I sleep on now? I got an or a ring?
Oh yeah, I like the Yeah, I'm I don't know, I'm thirty now.
I'm trying to like be in bed by you know midnight.
Dude, you're getting I'm I'm faty sixty yere and I've been I sleep at like ninety that's beautiful.
Yeah, it's so good.
I've been going to sleep at like nine p fifty, getting like eight hours of sleep. I feel like waking up going on walks. Am I this is crazy?
How does it feel to have hit that in that you once sid.
If like even Santiago, This feels like my debut album because it just feels like this is a version of myself that has not been shown to the world. And I still feel as young as I ever felt. But I just feel like I know myself more. I'm more comfortable with myself. I'm living in more of my truth and authenticity, and I'm excited. Like I just feel I feel blessed to make it out of my twenties alive,
you know, without any like drug problems or anything. Because looking back, I'm like I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know.
But yeah, I'm excited.
I love the uh you know, I was watching you. I'm always following everything you're up to, and I love the way you talk to the fans when you're on
stage and when you post from it. But also how you've been encouraging so many young artists to like jump on tracks and like be a part of the music, yeah, through TikTok and everything else, And like, I think that's so dope, man, because I it just I think there was I think there was one when you do with Caitlyn right, yeah, and it was just like I just found that whole approach to be so true to how you came up, yeah, and what you do and like
being able to past on. How does that feel to be able to now like it's it's it's incredible.
I feel like I've said it before to like my friends and people like you don't really feel the power of your platform or the power of your money until you give it away and see how it affects someone who maybe doesn't have that. It sort of like snaps you out of it for a second. It snaps you into really.
What you've built.
But yeah, I mean for me, like the you know, the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlin on the song, it's like it's a no brainer. Like and that's where like I'm glad I don't have an ego in that sense in that field. It's like, if I'm putting up a song and someone is affected by it enough to want to do their own version, and people love it, and I think it sounds good.
Why would I not just like make that a thing?
Just like this is the entertainment business, and it's like, meaning, we're in the business of people enjoying what you're doing. This is a cheek coode. They've already said that they enjoy it. Just give it to them. It's like, yeah, I thought it was dope. I love that answer. Yeah, she's great, very very talented. Where you just mentioned the ego, then where does the ego still blucky? Sometimes you're like, that's somewhere where I don't have an ego, whereas I.
Don't have a How would you describe the ego? It's a great question because then I could answer, yeah, yeah, it's great.
It's a great question. And that's what I want to give you a very thoughtful and so I would say that the ego is any moment in which you create a false sense of security. So you're creating a false sense of being safe as opposed to be an arrogant blah blah blah. That's it, because those are all Ultimately
it's a false self defense mechanism. Yeah, So like for example, with my wife, it's like, if my wife tells me something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will even construct something where I'm like, oh, yeah, but this happened before and this thing, and it's like I'm constructing a true What I'm saying is true, it's factual, but I'm still using it just to defend my ego because I'm scared of just saying like, you know.
That you're wrong. Yeah, oh I do that all the time. Yeah, so the wrong parts through.
But like, yeah, where where do you create a false sense of safety in your life or a false sense of security?
I think trying to constantly.
Save my mom emotionally and take on my family's emotions as my responsibility because without me doing that, they're not safe is like a really big crux of like my stress, you know, and it's not on them, it's on me, And it's really me, not like I'm not allowing my mom to pull herself out of the hole unless I go down there with her. But that's really the opposite
of empowering. It's like I need to let go. But letting go so scary because if I feel like she's drowning, or if I feel like my brother's drowning, or my sister or whoever I love is drowning and I'm watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save them? But the reality is sometimes they're just flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground, and it just looked like they were drowning, you know.
But dude, that is a great answer was.
No, because you just there was another definition as when you ask me that question, that game. To my mind, it's and whatever anyone's believing God is when I say the word God is God, universe.
Whatever you personally choose.
But like the ego is when you choose to play God instead of play your part for God.
Wow.
Right, Okay, And that's why it's a great answer because that is exactly what's happening. It's like you're you're saying it's all on me, right, and you're trying to.
Be the me the almighty.
You use the word at the beginning like that's a god like word, right, like where you're like everything rests and depends on me, which means if I do it, I'm going to save it and if I'm not there, it's.
Going to fall apart.
Right, And that's ego because like you just rightly said, like not only you can love someone and let them still grow by themselves and still be there for them, but you can't grow for them, right, But when you want to grow for someone instead of grow with them or help them grow.
Yeah, And I think that that level of like omnipotence and that level of control also influences like lack of confidence because by me being like, let me handle it, really says, oh, so you think that if I handle it, you know, me being my mind like, oh you think if I handle it, don't let you help me? Russ that like I can't do it, you know, And I'm.
Just like, yeah, kind of, you know, but I need to.
It's just really it's coming back to that place of my role in my identity. I always played the role of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and saving them and fixing things, and so it's just second nature. I get very hyper vigilant when someone around me is upset, because if you're upset, it's my fault, is what it gets like coded as and I'm trying to unlearn that. But that's tough because, like I said, I feel or when I was a kid, the stake seems so high.
It felt like it was life or death if I don't help, what if someone's self harms, et cetera. But now when someone's upset, I still can't let go and still be there for them but not feel like I have to go down into the hole with them because I'm still operating from that childlike role, you know, and I'm just working on understanding that, like they're okay, They're going to be okay, Like you know, no one's saying
like cut them off and don't talk to you. But it's like you don't need to go down into the hole with them.
That's beautiful.
And then the album Santiago is inspired by Polo Quella's Alchemist Yes, which is a legendary If you haven't heard, I mean, you have to have heard of this book. Everyone's listening if you haven't. It's a legendary book by a legendary author. When did you first come across the book? And why did you feel like you wanted to bring music into the book?
So Boogie is my best friend put that book in my hand when I was probably seventeen eighteen, I.
Met and lost time. Did you go with you? Yeah, that's a great deal. It is incredible.
So he put like that book in my hand and Napoleon Hill in my hand, you know, and crazy books to read at that age, and I would It was instantly like it became like a bible for me, you know, and there was just so many parallels that I found and I just I've like opened it back up or you know, a few times over the years, but for whatever reason, two years ago, summer of twenty twenty one, I decided.
To reread it. And you know how you can like.
Read a book that you've already read, but you read it at a different time in your life, and all of a sudden, different things stick out and it resonates deeper. And so it just felt it just spoke to me so deeply than even before it, and I was like, man, I want to make a whole album that gives like that parallels the book with my story. But what ended up happening was it was hard for me to just tell my story and not make an album about the Alchemist.
And so that's why I ended up saying it was loosely inspired by the Alchemists, because at the inception, it was truly like it felt like I couldn't write about my life, I had to write about Santiago's. But then Powacuelo says something, and I think the forward where he says, Santiago is my journey, but it's your journey, because one man's journey is everyone's journey. And that was the unlock for me and the permission for me to like tell my story, and there is like parallels within the Alchemists
and my natural story. But it's not a complete side by side thing. It's just it was a lighthouse for me, you know, the wind and oasis. It was things that I related to, but I still had my own input on. But yeah, complete framework and lighthouse.
And he's a genius. Yeah it's beautiful with the album and what did he say? Yeah he likes it. So it's like that to me, was like, this is insane. That's beautiful, man, what a beautiful hemage to like, you know.
Yeah, I was nervous because I'm like, it was so so insane. I start making this album summer twenty twenty one. He doesn't follow me on Twitter randomly, like right when I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter. You know, he follows like one hundred and sixty people.
And I was like, what are the odds that, like, while I'm making this, but you know, if you read the Alchemist the Signs and all these things, I'm like, all right, clearly I'm supposed to be reading this or unless he's got the room bugged, like I don't know what's going on, but I so I told right when he followed me, I told him, I was like, Yo, I'm actually making an album about like loosely inspired by the Alchemist.
And he was like, that's so great.
Keep me posted and he would like check in periodically like yo, how's it coming.
And he doesn't follow me anymore. I don't think it's personal.
But.
I love it. I love it.
You just you took Santiago down a different pop Yeah. Yeah, yeah, No, that's beautiful, man.
I love that. I love that.
If there's one song, Russ, You've been amazing. This has been such a it's always great avenue here. I've got two questions for you. One is is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about? Because you're a friend and I have to honor you with that question. Is there anything we haven't dove into that you're like, yeah, I want to talk about this, this, or even if it's quieter, and you're like, it's in my heart right now.
I need to say the floor is yours? No, I think honestly, I think we touched on every everything.
Yeah, and I'm really really happy with that. I appreciate you having me for of.
Course, man, I appreciate you.
I was looking you can come back on whenever you want, Like this is like it's it's I love conversations where they really are just like a back and forth and that's how I feel with you. I'm just like we can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and not know the answer and yeah, you know.
But if there's one, I'm gonna say my one.
You can say, what is the one track you want everyone to go stream after listening to this episode? Which one would you recommend?
Boy?
I was gonna say the same one.
Yeah, I think it's so aligned with today's conversation. But the other ones that I recommend too that we discuss today, Fraud really powerful, Oasis, highly recommend to as well. And then of course go listen to the whole album.
Russ.
You've been amazing to have back on. I appreciate you so much as a as a human, as an artist. I don't know anyone who's made mental health and music seem that core as you have, which I love because it's it's my life's work. But seeing you do it in your way is so empowering, and I think there are a whole group of listeners that are going to come up and just have different viewpoints because of you. So so man, Yeah you know it's happening already. It's happening. It's happening.
So but thank you, Man. I appreciate you being on all banks and listen.
It's a testament to like, the reason why I always want to come back here is because the energy you have and like the barriers down vibe you have where there's no judgment, and the depth you have. It was just such a no brainer for me to like, I always got to go back and sit with him because it's just such a like even the energy in this room, it's just so curious and like safe, you know, so than.
You've had to you.
Thank you for saying that, Man, I appreciate it anytime, Yeah, anytime, And everyone's been listening, watching wherever you are, with you walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to and from work, or whether you're at the gym. Make sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts on TikTok on Instagram, let us know what resonated with you, what stuck out to you on Twitter on threads. I love seeing the little clips. I love seeing how you're
enjoying the podcast. It means the world to me, I know, mean a lot to Russ and tag Us when you're streaming as well. Santiago, it's out right now. Thank you so much. If you love this episode, you love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation.
Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents or their brother, call them right now.
Don't think you're going to have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week.
That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.