MADONNA: For the First Time Ever

you don't do a lot of interviews. We don't see you doing interviews, maybe even for the last nine ten years, and give or take, what's your intention for being here today? Why now? Why today?

by the wayside like other people. Definitely a lot of my peers who who are no longer with us like, what would you say is the key? And I would say that is my spiritual life. I absolutely would not be where I am or who I am if I did not have that. It's helped me enormously, as I said, navigate the ups and downs of life. So I feel like I would like to share that with people. So that's really the point of I'm not here to promote a product or I don't want anyone to buy anything.

I just I want to share something with people that has pretty much saved my life. It sounds dramatic, but it's true.

you didn't find it.

know this, I'm sure you know. If we get caught up in the belief system that our value in the world is based on people loving us or other people's approval or how much money you have, or how many fabulous outfits you have or how many follows you have on Instagram, those things don't make us happy. Those things

don't bring us peace. So having an internal life and being able to look internally and having some kind of practice whatever that might look like your prayer, your meditations, that the time you take out of every day to stop and take stock, like contemplate, we live in a very busy, chaotic world, lots of noise, lots of distraction. I mean, how many times have you heard people say, oh, you know, social media and like all the you know, people can't walk down the street without listening to music.

Everybody has to be visually stimulated all the time. I'm like, there's no peace, there's no quiet. We're not comfortable being quiet with ourselves and looking inward and asking ourselves why am I here or what am I doing? Or what is my intention in this specific choice I'm making right now, whether it's about my work or the way I'm raising my children, decisions that I make about everything, Really, I

have to ask myself. And if you don't have a spiritual life, you're never going to stop and ask any questions. You're just going to plow through life. And if you just and you're going to see everything that happens to you as just a random event. And I don't believe that anything is random. I think everything that happens to us is meant to happen to us to teach us some kind of a lesson. But the question is are

you aware enough, are you awake enough? Are you interested enough to find out what that reason is?

I have what that person has. I'm sure you know the expression comparison is the killer of joy, So you know, it's like, you got to get out of that game. You have to have a spiritual life. You just have to.

could take stock, you could introspect. But as time's gone on, what's happened is we lost that third space. We stopped going to temple, church, community, whatever place of self reflection, a place of self reflection, and we ended up with working home, and then after the pandemic, we lost work, and so now we're in one space and we don't have a different advantage point to where we are anymore, which is what I think you're saying.

What are your spiritual practices and rituals that have been so supportive and emblematic of your journey, that have kept you going at the times. As you said, there were so many times you could give up, or things could go wrong, or you kept pushing and they kept you locked? What were they? What are they? Well?

I wouldn't say she was peaceful all the time, but I was just struck by her confidence and her knowingness that everything was happening for a reason. She never got upset about things. And this is in the beginning of my career when I was living in New York and I was broke and a lot of crazy things happened to me. It's really scary, traumatic things. And I would always ask her her name is Marianne. I would always

say what, like why are you like never upset? So I attributed that to her spiritual life, but it didn't speak to me. And then later on I started practicing yoga Ashtanga yoga and my teacher, Eddie Stern, he still has a you know Eddie, Yeah, he's amazing. I got quite caught up in and competitive about like first series, second series, third series. But one thing I noticed is that a lot of people would come into his practice, his studio where he taught, and they wouldn't even do

the posts. They would just go and sit in front of the statue of ganesh or light candles or prayer. And I realized, and Eddie pointed it out to me because sometimes I would have injuries, I would or I would be traveling and I couldn't practice yoga, and he say, look are you breathing, And I'd say yes, and he said, you're practicing yoga. So I realized that I was too, still, too caught up in the physical poses. He's like, no,

you don't understand. You're missing the whole point. The poses are just something that you do to breathe through, to calm your nervous system down and to bring you back to your center. And that really spoke to me. There was a big now it was a painting on the wall of the yoga studio. It says desire and detachment. And I said, what does that mean? And he said, well, of course we want. We want all the beautiful things in life. We want all the pleasures, we want, all

the happiness, we want every we want it all. There's nothing wrong with that which can't be attached to it, because then if you're attached to it and you don't have it, what's going to happen to you? So I studied that for a while, and I studied Sanskrit. I had a teacher, and you know, I learned that the vibrations of the letters, you know, had a calming effect on your nervous system and centered you and placed you firmly rooted in the earth. And all of that made

sense to me. But then again, nothing happens by accident. But I was pregnant with my daughter, Lola, my oldest daughter, and I suddenly realized I was living in la I suddenly realized, I'm going to be responsible for an other human being. What am I going to teach her? I'm just I'm like a meteor like making my way through the you know, the on this planet. Like you know, I have great survival instincts, I have a great work ethic. Yes,

I'm very ambitious all of those things. But I was never like I was just knocking him down, you know what I mean, and not like looking back like I'm going to be somebody, because that's you know, that's why I came to New York in the first place. I will never go back to the nobody life I had when I was a child growing up. So I definitely was fueled by an inner drive, but I would not

say that I was spiritual or conscious. When I was pregnant, I suddenly realized I knew nothing and I was a slave or a victim of other people's opinions of me. And I didn't have really even though it looks like and looked like I was confident, brave, audacious, whatever you know, I, deep down inside it was not.

something called Kabbala. It's next to a synagogue. And I was like, wait, so he's Jewish and she said yeah, but it doesn't have anything to do with being Jewish. It's just a belief system, not a belief system, like a philosophy about life that you know, you could learn a lot from. And I said, okay, I'll go. So I did, and that's how I met my teacher. And I literally would sit in the back of class for years.

Mostly men were in the class at the time. It was, but everything that he said seemed to make so much sense to me and gave me courage to be who I am and who I meant to be, and made me actually think about intention and a real sense of purpose, because my sense of purpose can't just be I want to be rich and famous, or I want to be popular, or I want to sell a lot of records, because none of that lasts. But it wasn't until I went to class that I actually started thinking about those things.

So I just kept going and here I am today. But you know, motherhood are being a parent is really what made me start asking questions that I most likely I should have asked them sooner, but I didn't because I was just caught up in my self.

And I was very young. I was eighteen nineteen years old. I wasn't even seeking. I was open and I was curious, right, And to be honest, I was doing what everyone else was doing at that time when you're eighteen nineteen year old kid like you experimenting, experimenting and doing everything else under the sun. But I'm so glad I went because now, looking back, I find that after meeting the monks that I met, it gave my life a compass at a very early age that I'm so grateful for because it

changed the entire trajectory of my life. I can't imagine what I would have ended up doing in the same way as you did. And it sounds dramatic, but it's true that without the group of friends that invited me to go along and meet my teachers who would become my future teachers, I can't imagine what life could be like.

and this drive to become successful and at the same time there was this spiritual calling. Yes, that was almost happening simultaneously. How did you reconcile the two when to the external lie they could look very opposite. How did you actually right look weird?

to do with religion. Everybody has to find the path that speaks to them and resonates with them. But I do think it's important to have one. And I dare say if you didn't have a spiritual path, you wouldn't be as successful as you are today. I will make that assumption in your work, in your marriage, in your friendships, all your relationships. It honestly, it sounds like a really like a cliche your spiritual life. Even I was like

the reason, but it's just got a bad rap. You know, you, like one hundred percent can have a spiritual life and be successful. I wouldn't be here if I didn't have one.

and think, Wow, that's so amazing what just happened? I channeled that, Like you don't actually know that you're tapping into another dimension until you start paying attention to the other, to the idea that there is more to life than

you and I sitting in this room on a chair, Like if you believe in energy, and you believe in universal laws, and you believe in quantum physics, like the possibilities are endless, and miracles, the idea of miracles is not a foreign concept. It's not a lucky strike, you know what I mean. It definitely affected my work. I became conscious of the fact that I was and am I am channeling, Like that's what I'm doing. I don't own it. It's not mine. I am a vessel for it.

I'm a vessel for this light, which in turn, my goal is to share with other people now that I can do that through my work. I can do that through my music, I can do that through my relationships with people. I can do that as a friend, I can do that as a mother, as a parent. So you realize that it can. It informs every part of your life. But the one really important thing, well, one of the many important things that my teacher taught me was that I am not the owner of my talent.

I am the manager. As long as you keep that consciousness and you're aware like people who run to say I did that, that was my idea. I mean, you created an opportunity for yourself by allowing yourself to be a vessel for this. Call it what you like magic. I think it's magic. I think when you channel artistic ideas and you have creative visions, it's magic. And when you think it overthink it, or you start thinking about

how much of that you own, you stop it. That's why a lot of I would say, this is my observation that a lot of people have these great kind of meteoric careers and they rise up and they take the world by storm, and they influence the masses, and they and then they just something happens and they can't handle the light and they're not even aware of it, and in a way they fly too close to the light and it burns them. Yeah, and I would say that's really true about many of my peers that I had.

I was lucky enough to know them, whether that's Prince or Michael Jackson or Jean michelle boskiat the painter like the these are like people who had just were channeling, channeling, But I also don't think they understood like the concept of their their what they were channeling, and that you know, there has to be some kind of restriction. There has

to be some kind of filament. There has to be, you know, like people like to take drugs, right why because it makes they're they're actually channeling light where there you know, tripping on acid, but it's light with no restriction, and then that's what kills you or burns you out to the light. No, no, no, thank God.

and no.

Because if that had if my childhood hadn't been what it had been, if I had lost my mother, if I hadn't had all of these challenges as a child, I would have thought of my home as a place of comfort and I would have gone back. But I didn't. So that's what kept me going. And then you know, there are challenges in my career though. Even though I was very successful, I went through many periods of time where the press was beeeding up on me. I was demonized.

What kept me going? I don't I don't know, like I said Guardian Angels, But again I wasn't conscious of it until I was pregnant. Then I start to see, like everything started to like come into focus for me. But it's not. I make it sound like it's an easy thing, like studying, Like the more you know, the harder everything is, and the more enlightened you try to become, the more conscious you try to become, the more tests

you have, the more you know. It's like why, Like the more you know, the more you realize you don't know, and the more you aspire to be conscious, the more you feel like everyone's trying to drag you down and take you out of it and convince you that it's not true or you know the tests, Yeah, and you know life is a test, let's face it.

remind him. And it said that that was done so that he could always remain grounded. I can imagine for you to not fall into the trap of believing you're the light is extremely difficult when you're one of the best selling artists of all time, when, like you said, you name the company, there's only the Beatles, yourself, Michael Jackson, that sit in this esteemed group of individuals who've achieved

incredible things. How did you hold on to that beautiful belief that you're not the light and your manager of the light when anyone else could easily believe they were.

life except taking care of other people. And so when I started, when I came to New York and I started my career, I was like, no, this is not for me. I don't want to be a mother. I

don't want that. I wasn't saying it out loud, but I was thinking that, like, why would I give all of this up? I worked so hard for it. Well, one day I found that I was pregnant and I and I had been running away from it for so long. And I wouldn't say I was in a stable relationship, but I loved her father, so I wasn't really thinking it through. But I was like, Okay, this happened. This happened to me, so it's meant to happen to me. But honestly, what the hell am I going to teach

my daughter? Like, how am I going to guide her? I've just been living this, you know, completely selfish life really that you know turned out good in many ways, but in reality, I was doing everything for my own self. And I also kind of thought, well, you know, okay, I'm pregnant, so I'm going to be a mother, so I'll figure it out. I'll work it out. But honestly, I was scared shitless and I wasn't in a traditional relationship. And once again, like this is the story of my life.

I keep finding myself in unconventional or untraditional or unusual or unfamiliar places, and I have to keep adjusting. And I say that, I would say that that is also the reason that I'm still here and still going and have the strength to fight things or just to survive because being too comfortable in life, I would say, is the downfall of a lot of people who started off taking chances, taking risks.

like I did when I was in high school. I don't fit in, and not fitting in is what saves you, and that you know studying Kabala, No nobody else was interested in it, not my friend group, And if I would speak about it to people, they'd be like, oh, that's really interesting. Having a spiritual life isn't necessarily going to make you popular, but if you're a conscious person searching for truth, then it's going to be interesting. Like I'm interested in your spiritual path, your spiritual life. I

want to know what you do, what it does for you. I want to know how you do it because I'm curious, and curiosity and being an outsider, and those are the things that actually save you, even though it's not supported in our society to think outside the box, to take the road less traveled by, to not be so concerned with approval public approval. And now we live in a world where everyone follows algorithms, and algorithms are the opposite of taking chances. They are the opposite of being unique.

They're the opposite of spiritual life. They're the opposite of consciousness. That's why artificial intelligence cannot duplicate consciousness. It can duplicate doing things following formulas, but it can't duplicate consciousness. So now have we gotten really?

and blood, of Christ. Why is my father didn't have an answer, He'd just say that's what is written. And what drew me to Kabala was that I could ask questions and there were answers and questions were invited, which is the opposite of how it was brought up. So I thought I looked at my father as kind of

like a religious robot, you know what I mean. Not that he's not a good person, but I didn't want to be a robot, and especially having a spiritual life, I started to see my father as a human being and see that he was a human that made mistakes and that he did the best with what he was taught he was given. When those cylinders start clicking in your head, you start to have a lot more compassion, not just for your parents, but for all people who don't see life the way you see it, that you

don't agree with. It brought me to a place where I could have more compassion for him.

a bathroom with twenty thirty families. Yeah, and we went outside. I was nine years old. We're in India and there's cockroaches around us in Pune, and there's cockroaches around his home. There's bats in the you know, and it's just like and inside. And I was nine years old and I couldn't believe that. You know, that's when my dad grew up.

And it was almost like something clicked where I was like I, unless I saw that, I wouldn't have had that experience because it was always easier to assume that their life.

and having that context was huge for me. I want to hear about how you were able to apply these principles in the difficulty of the big things you're talking about, because whether it's reconnecting with our parents, whether it's recovering from being raped, whether it's dealing with these challenges you've dealt with. As you said, it doesn't up and overnight. It's not easy. It is the level of study and work.

But talk to me about the emotional journey of shifting from a victim to whatever you would call this on the other side, because it would be very natural for anyone to feel that way. I want to hear about the emotional journey and the spiritual journey you went on. What were some of the steps or stages that you saw that if anyone is listening or watching, can recognize and potentially well.

happening to is like something that's never going to end, and you drew the wrong.

can't take this pain anymore. But as soon as you understand that what's happening to you is a challenge that you are karmically meant to experience and learn from and evolve to a higher level of consciousness, then you can look at that event, that experience as a lesson and not punishment.

that doesn't mean you're not being a victim. But I would say probably one of the most painful moments in my life where I honestly couldn't see the forest through the trees for the trees, was when I went through a custody battle with my son and I you know,

even though my marriage didn't work out. I mean a lot of people marriages don't work out. They marry their own people. They're not aligned, they're not meant for each other. Someone taking trying to take my child away from me was like they might as well just kill me. That's really how I was thinking. And I was on tour at the time, so I had to go on stage every night. I would just be lying on the floor of my dressing room sobbing. I really thought it was

like it was the end of the world. I couldn't take it. I just couldn't take it. But thank god, I don't feel that way anymore. And I had to keep you know, studying, Like, continuing my studies and continuing on my spiritual path like helped me to understand that, you know, the enemy is within. You know, lots of people do lots of bad things and make a lot of bad choices, or make choices that cause other people pain, suffering or chaos or whatever. But at the end of

the day, I needed to learn some lessons. And I can see that with the benefit of hindsight, but I couldn't see it at the time. And also I was abandoned as a child by my own mother, and so losing a child like it was like life repeating itself. I couldn't accept it, and so it caused me a lot of suffering, and not being able to accept things causes all of us a lot of suffering. So yes, and now you know, I'm happy to say that I'm really good friends with my son. But I couldn't see

it then. I really thought it was the end of the world. So, you know, thank god I had a spiritual life.

different way. I can give you another example of radical acceptance, and that is and this is something that my teacher shared with me about a year and a half ago. I was rehearsing for my tour, a tour and I I got a bacterial infection and I one minute I was alive and dancing around, and the next minute I was in the ICU unit of a hospital. And I woke up from being unconscious for four days, I got

out of the hospital. They took me off of you know, the ventil Later, I started to breathe on my own, and I had something that's something it's called sepsis, and it's like it can kill you and everybody recovers at a different rate, and so you know, I've always seen myself as superwoman. So I was like, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna, this is gonna I'm gonna kick this. I'm going to be good. I'm getting back into rehearsals. And

I had no strength, I had no energy. I couldn't get out of bed, and I didn't know when it was going to end. And I used to talk to my teacher all the time, and he's like, the sooner you accept what's happening to you, and that you don't know when it's going to end, the sooner it's going to end. That made so much sense to me, and of course it did. But I mean I've heard some people never recover from it completely, never recover and have

their like full health again. So again, it's the same idea, same concept, like if you sit around feeling sorry for yourself, oh well, woe is me? Or poor me? Or this is like I don't accept it, I will not accept it. Well, then you're just going to be swimming and suffering.

And he talks about that those who accepted that they had no idea when they were going to get home were actually happier and were able to endure what they were going through a lot easier than those who hoped they'd get back on Christmas and then yeah, didn't.

going through the worst. Yeah, yeah, it's really really tough going back to your experience of that, What would you say, because you mentioned karma there and this idea of choices we make and lessons we need to learn, and karma almost being this experience of learning the lessons. How do you see karma? How do you define karma from your learnings and studies? And let's stop there, and then I'll ask the second question after that.

our karmic destiny. It's energy, the law of its quantum physics, it's caused and effect. Whatever's happening to me that might be uncomfortable is obviously meant to happen to me to teach me a lesson. And if I don't learn that lesson at that point, it's going to come up again and again and again until I learn it and accept then it's a lesson, not a punishment. So that's how you get out of victim mentality.

learn something. I think everybody if they think about it,

like what is the thing that always comes back to you? Or like for everybody it's something different. Obviously, I think the abandonment thing was the greatest lesson to that I could teach me that I could stop being destroyed by it or paralyzed by it. Was to think of all like how am I not showing up for other people? How am I abandoning other people?

whether it's physical or emotional. I mean, and that obviously that takes life experience and living and you know, going everything's going well for me, I'm so happy, everything's great. Oh no, this is like, this is a failure. People are writing negative shit about me, like you know, or this relationship ended, or this person cheated on me or this, you know, like all these things that happened to you. Rejection like and then you go and you go, no,

I'm not happy. If you're going to go through life like being a slave to these like ups and downs, you're just going to be like, I don't know how you can last, obviously, I mean it's obvious to me. I don't know if it's obvious to you or anybody who's watching this, But I don't know how we can

maintain our sanity, and especially now. I mean when people lived simpler lives and we didn't see what was going on in the world, and we didn't like we weren't so connected like we are because of technology and the end of the internet whatever, it's hard not to get like anxious or start blaming or taking sides or feeling you know what I'm saying.

they've started their reconnection journey. They know what that feeling's like, where it's like, yeah, wait, when I left myself and now I'm coming back to myself.

That just stops any kind of growth from happening.

with the with the consciousness that you are channeling something. You don't own it. So that's a big thing.

or later. Everybody comes to that realization anyways. It's just whether it's sooner or later. And these are the things. I talk about this in our studies. You know, let's get back to why I'm here, and my intention is

to share my spiritual life with people. We talk about in our studies, we talk about manifesting, and we talk about being a channel, and you know, I share in one of the studies, I talk about writing my first song, for example, and how I taught myself how to play the drums, and I my friend, my boyfriend at the time, was in a band, and he taught me how to play guitar, like just simple chords, and when nobody was around, I would start playing with all the instruments and start

without thinking, without any like I'm going to be this or I'm going to be that. Let me just I just sat down and wrote a song for the first time, and I was and I was very conscious at that moment after it happened, where did that come from? Well? How did that happen? I didn't grow up with musicians. I didn't grow up with songwriters, no one. I didn't have a goal to be that. Where did it come from? And so when you start like opening your eyes to that,

where did how did that happen? Where did that come from? Then you see you see the possibilities, You see the magic of the universe of life, and you see that you know that was that was a gift. Some angels showed up in my room and you know what am I going to do with that gift? So these moments happened to you throughout life. They happen to everybody, whether you're saving someone's life or you have this incredible idea for some life saving invention. You know what I mean.

We're all blessed with those moments, and it's you know, it's really the important thing is to acknowledge where that came from. That's really manifesting.

stuck because now you think you can't do it. But the reality is that's just a very functional way of looking at something that's far beyond input output and manufacturing. You can't manufacture to manifest it doesn't make sense. No, Yeah, I really really like that. I really really appreciate that definition, and I think that's going to help a lot of people because I think the way it's being talked about right now is just being be clear about your goals

and be really clear about what you want. And I mean that's important too.

to consideration the idea of karma. I mean you need that also because if you don't have that support system, then you can also fall back into the trap of recreating formulas at work or trying to capture some magical moment and make it magic again. And that's just our ego taking over and telling.

serve and provide. And so when we're not serving, we're actually acting against the universe because everything in the universe is designed simply to give. We're wired for generosity but educated for greed, and when that juxtaposition comes up against itself, it just creates friction. It's like, we all feel better when we do something for someone else. Absolutely, we all feel more joy when you take care of someone in need, more than if you did it for yourself. And the

science and the research backs up as well. This isn't some woo woo spiritual idea.

to stop you? You know what I mean? You have to have that moment where you're thinking about what you've done, thinking about what you'd like to do, thinking about what you know. Have I capitalized on the opportunities that have come my way, not monetarily spiritually like what did I do to help someone? What have I done for others? I mean, that's really the only way you can be successful in life.

difference is like having intention and conscious we're really like I'm repeating myself over and over again. I can't think of other words that capture that, but self awareness. Self awareness doesn't really do it because self awareness kind of implies like selfishness, you know what I mean, a day at the spa, not that that's not something to be enjoyed. I could I could use sure my roof has been leaking for a month. Yeah, I want to go to

the spot. That's okay, But that's not going to bring me lasting happiness.

You know what I mean? Should be but no, But when we are in that space where we're feeling dark, where we're feeling an absence of light, an absence of hope, an absence of inspiration of vision, then you have to Those are the moments, the challenging moments, where you say, you have to say to yourself, this is my opportunity to bring light to a dark place. You know, spiritual wisdom is not helpful when everything's going your way. It's

helpful when you're challenged and when you're happy. It's it's helpful to remember that at any given time, in any moment, it could be gone. So don't take it for granted. Have humility, be grateful when things are going your way, and when you're being tested, also be grateful. That's a hard one. That was a hard one for me. It still is, but I'm glad that I know what I know.

learn from as well. You've conquered and continue to try to conquer some really difficult emotions, like really really difficult things.

And I feel like forgiven for us in the world today is probably one of the hardest things for us. Whether we've been betrayed, whether we've been lied to, whether we've been exploited, whether we've been taken advantage of. And we always hear the age old phrase of forgiveness is for you, it's not for them. And you hear these things, but it's my wait who says that it's I mean, it's common like verbiage that exists in the world at least of this idea that you know, don't hold on to grudges.

never Now, I just don't. I don't want to have those feelings anymore because they're really it's a prison, and it's poison to not be able to forgive and to live in a state of like holding a grudge or hating someone or wanting them to suffer. It's like a kind of poison. It's like a kind of cancer. And that's why it's important to find a way to forgive, even people that you perceive as your biggest enemies for

a really long time. It was my brother who died recently, because I think the hardest ones are the people that you feel like you're the like, they're you're the closest to, they're your greatest ally, and they turn on you. The people that hurt you the most are the people that

you love the most. And when life doesn't go the way that you expected it to go, that you suddenly that this pain is unbearable and that you think what's going to save you is to think vengeful thoughts or to never forgive, like that's going to give you some kind of power, magical power. It doesn't just weighs you

down and eats away at you and is poisonous. So having to forgive my brother, knowing that I had to forgive my brother, it was you know, it's like your ego dances around it like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll get to it. I'll get to calling him up or talking to him or being his friend or helping him. But

eventually I did. And I know I'm being mysterious. If someone you love deeply betrays you and does something that shows that they have no consciousness in that moment that they made that choice to do that, it's really it's a bitter pill for me to swallow. I can't speak for everyone, but I imagine that lots of people feel

this way. For my brother, I didn't speak to him for you know, for years, years and years, and it was him being ill and reaching out to me and saying I need your help, and me having that moment like am I going to help my enemy? You know?

in the hospital, forgiveness. That word came to my mind, like I have to forgive people because I was there, I was almost there on the other side, and I had a conscious moment and my mother appeared to me and she said, do you want to come with me? And I said no. My assistant was in the room with me, but I was still unconscious, but she heard me say no. And then when I did eventually wake up, I realized that the no was about me needing to forgive and make good with people that I still held

grudges against. So and interestingly well, I wrote a song about him. I'm working on new music and I wrote a song called Fragile, which is about my brother. And then I wrote another song, and this is again just channeling. It's called forgive Yourself, but the repeating phrase the chorus of the song is if you can't forgive me, forgive

your which is something we all have to do. We have to forgive others, but we also have to figure forgive ourselves and stop beating up on ourselves about things choices we've made in the past that haven't worked out for ourselves or other people. Taking responsibility again, we come back to that concept also, or that idea of being accountable and being responsible. Taking responsibility as a very big lesson that I learned studying Cabala is that I am responsible.

I am responsible and every and I believe in personal accountability, personal karma, and I believe in global karma. Like a lot of the things that are happening in the world is as a result of our selfishness as people, as humans, as a society, we are responsible. You can't just sit in your room or your house or the safety of your home and go people are you know, they deserve it whatever to be aware and conscious that you're contributed

in some way, shape or form. And at the same time, if we have collectively unconsciously evolved to a higher state of consciousness, we can change the world. But that also sounds like a cliche, but make the world a better place. Tip the balance, so to speak. But that's why I'm here, and that's why I'm talking to you, and that's why I made these This is why I documented my studies with my teacher, because I really believe that this wisdom can help other people in a very practical way, not

in an esthetic way. And that's why I'm here.

and looking at it from the point of view of what would that look like if you never got that opportunity. I know so many people who regret the last thing they said to their parents, or the last thing they said to a loved one, or whoever it may be, and it seems that vengeance and spite doesn't seem to heal the soul.

your consciousness, not the body. Yes, is repeated more than any other teaching, even though it's the most obvious, and it's the first teaching.

Madonna's been talking about you the whole interview, and I want our audience to know. Of course, you were sitting in on our conversation as well, and so you have context of everything we talked about, and of course you have twenty nine years of context of everything Madonna shared with us over the last couple of hours. But thank you so much for doing this, and thank you for being here.

I want to dive in because we've heard about my daughter's journey and her journey to Kabbalah, but I would love to hear how you came to it, because I'm assuming everyone has their own spiritual journey of awakening or connecting, and I'm sure many of our listeners today are either on their spiritual journey want to start one, but I'd love to hear how did you come to this practice yourself.

my brother introduced me to Kabbala. I went to the Kabbala Center and I met my teacher for many years, the rough Berg, And after hearing one hour of a lesson of how the universe began and why are we here, it resonated in such a deep level. Literally I couldn't sleep for three nights and I felt I'm home. I felt I'm reconnecting to really my purpose, what life is about. And it took few years, and by the age of

twenty one, I knew that's my mission in life. So basically, in the last forty years, that's what I'm doing all day long, student and a teacher. In the last forty years. That's beautiful. Like I was saying earlier, I felt like I came to my work when I was eighteen, and so I'm a couple of decades behind you in my journey, but that idea of discovering something earlier and it resonating so strongly with your heart and comming in your life to it. What was it like when you first met Madonna?

What was that first interaction like?

connected to the higher force twenty four to seven. It is our body, our logic, our ego, the layers in our hearts that's blocking us to see and to feel the truth. When you just agree with some spiritual concept and once in a while learning so wow, it's amazing.

from all of my classes and studies. And I loved to be a student and learn, and I was learning so much, And I also was so what I loved so much about Kabal and studying Cabal, it was how in tune it was with science and quantum physics. And you know, it wasn't just just because you know what I mean, Like everything made sense to me, and I could see how you know, even the idea of you know, how the world was created, or the beginning of life, the idea of you know, Genesis, for instance, or the

idea of Adam and Eve. I learned that nothing in life can be taken literally. You have to study the deeper meanings of everything. And that is true for a spiritual practice as well as science, as well as everything we do in life. You can't judge a book by its cover. You can't take things literally. And I was like, oh, Like, when I was growing up as a Catholic, I would always say to my father, well, why do we have to you know, why do we have to address this

to church? Why does the you know, like you know, wear a hat, cavery your hat what like? There was no explanation for anything, and that really bugged me. So if you can't find a reason, if you can't explain something to me, I'm not interested. So he did explain things to me, and they all everything made sense. Nothing

was silly. What we do study when we study Kabala is the we study the Zohar, and in within the Zohar is everything about life, about medicine, about science, about nature, about relationships, and that was really comforting to me to see. That's what helped me see life is not a series of random events.

in such a coded way and will not get any understand the secret of life and the wise ofe pages three pages. Yes, it's a lot of commentary, but yes, three pages. And then the main book of Kabbalah, after many kabalists teaching from one to another, was the Book of the Zoror or the Book of Splendor, that was revealed two thousand years ago. And the zor is actually decdified Torah codified the Bible and helping us to understand the Bible is not a book of stories or laws

or religiosity or dogma. It's the secrets of life are hidden there, and the so haard the main book of which we have it today translated to English and to other languages. It's actually helping us to understand that everything in this world has a purpose and a reason. And if asking what really kabbale is about, Kabbala is about understanding the wise of life of the universe and why I'm here and what is my purpose? And why are we struggling? And what is the journey of our soul

and where we came from? And if the Creator is such an infinite force of good and love out come, we all struggling either with pain, with doubts, with negativity, with selfishness. So that is the main book of Cabala, and of course was many Kabbalists throughout his story since then, that was we're able to bring Kabbalah down to us. And in nineteen seventy that's when the Cabbala Center started, which is opening the gates and the doors of Kabbala to all mankind.

is beyond time and space, and it's within us. Okay, So why does evil forget about outside even inside? Why do we have constantly destructive forces within each one of us? There's a constant chatter you wake up and gravity pulls you down. Why a lot of people study today how to overcome that negative force, But why there is a

negative force within us? So one of the one of the basic understanding we're talking about it, it's as understanding that the greatest gift, the greatest gift the Creator gave us, is the opportunity to overcome the opponent within, because when you overcome, you become co creator. The reason why we do experience enough peace, enough light, enough fulfillment, It's very simple, Like trucks, like you want to experience the light, be like the light, be a being of sharing. But part

of what the light is about, it's a creator. So the gift to overcome negativity within is the gift of being the creator. Imagine you were given everything. You're bond with talents, you're bonn with love, You're bone with just helping people all day long. That's your natural tendency. No negative force try to pull you down, no selfishness. Do you think you really will be able to actually experience and appreciate the force of the Creator, the force of love,

the force of light, the force of true fulfillment. The answer is no. So while sometime we all upset, why I have this particular negative voice in my mind, and why do I have to struggle with abandonmenttissue? And why do I have to struggle with moments of sadness, at the moment you realize one second, this is the greatest gift to create. To give you doesn't mean you're right away or how to overcome it. Maybe we'll share some

tools how to do it. But the fact that you accept the greatest gift in this world is the gift of overcoming. And it doesn't mean it has to be with suffering. Actually it doesn't mean. But the fact that you accept that opponent within you, it's actually was created by the light, by the universe, by the force of good to help us to grow. Imagine you bring spoke

about soccer a little bit before. Imagine imagine you bring your kid to play soccer and you bring them in front of a goal and with the ball and say, now score. Will it be fun?

call it karma, we call it cabalistically tikoun. Each one of us have own unique areas of transformation, and everything that life presenting to us is to present these opportunities of overcoming and as a result, allow my soul to shine, my gifts to shine, my true purpose to shine.

all family, the opposing side and his side. And he's on his chariot in the middle of the battlefield, and he's talking to God and God is serving him as his charioteer. And what he's expressing to God is his doubt, his anxiety, and his insecurity. And that's how it begins. It begins from a place of doubt, stress, fear, pressure,

which is what engages him to ask the question. And it's so interesting that we often think that doubt and anxiety and the problem, but often they are the seed of where the question comes from and why we even look up or look around and question what's happening in our lives. And it's almost like doubt is the direction and anxiety is beautiful, right, Like there's that's it's It's similar as I'm.

you encourage her to reflect on that?

this feeling of low self esteem. You know, we don't feel worthy, we don't feel we have a purpose. And I feel like that's what the world is today. A lot of people who are listening and watching today probably feel like they don't have something to offer, or maybe they know kind of what they have to offer, but

they don't feel confident enough. What would your teachings, in some of your guidance say to those kind of people who are sitting there thinking, I kind of you know, I don't have that confidence in myself I don't I don't really know what I'm going to do, and they're feeling stuck.

difference between personality and soul strength.

I met her, and when suddenly you go through a situation that threatened that ability to be a warrior, to be strong, to be independent, suddenly you feel fear and emptiness. And what I would recommend, what I would share with Madonna, would recommend anybody, in order to find your strength, start with the challenges of today. It's not about finding my purpose in the future. And let's break it down to simple such a.

is the exactly It's beautiful.

to reveal it. But that's a that's a really hard one, I think, especially for women, you know, because we are a conditioned to like want to aspire to be this beautiful or this great of a mother or you know, this grade of a homemaker or this grade of a you know, it's a test every day to not judge yourself and to not like feel like you're lacking in some way, like you say, and when I say my prayers, part of my prayer is that I rise above my limitations and that I rise above my nature, and that

I don't get sucked into the vortex of lack which can come in so many different forms and tune into you. Just you really have to be consciously like going like your head is a radio dial like going like like like, no, I'm not that's not me, you know what I mean. It's constant. It's a constant conversation you're having with yourself.

It's like takes so many different forms, and like the greatest thing in the world is to be able to stop yourself before that happens. But it does require constant vigilance.

the practice to overcome that, not just in meditation throughout the day, which is very powerful. Step number one, as you face the challenge before you get as the reactive process of lack and negative thoughts, tell yourself say these words, pause, what an opportunity I don't know why. It's an opportunity, but I know every moment of flack it's a gift from the universe to help me to reveal greater light and a blessing in my life. Step number two, don't

fix it yet. Embrace what is. Embrace the difficult feelings, because in order to find light in darkness, you need to be there with courage a little bit in darkness. We want to fix right away. We want to get rid of what bothers us. We want to get rid of the fear. We want to get rid of the insecurities. We can stand it. We don't like the discomfort, And how do we want to get rid of it? By being reactive, by blaming, by judging ourselves, by jumping after

opportunity for insectifications, by being self destructive. Pause, Embrace It's okay, And part of the reason of study is developing trust. It's okay. Embrace first what is, and then go to the next level.

way the light the universe. What's the when you feel less reactive? Because usually when we experience lack, we reactive. We want to get rid of the luck, we want to get rid of the fact. And that's what's caused, I think, what's caused evil behavior between people not knowing how to handle moments of luck. That's where it's art. So forget about others. Let's start with ourselves. And sometimes we'll fix the lack because someone will tell us, whow you're an amazing person and love you so much, and

how we feel good? And I fixed it. I forgot about my lack. I forgot about my insecurity. Actually, I am amazing are you? By developing true muscles and skills to find the light within or you want to be attached to the external energy that will fix you will never work. And of course when you in that place, actions of giving, even if it doesn't make sense calling someone, adding value to someone, being kind to someone also help you to shift your energy towards the vibration of the soul,

towards the vibration of the light. But we all need to go to this. Yeah, you know, some people would call it mental illness, but we all have that mental struggle. We all have that mental struggle in feelings and in our minds. So it's a it's actually it's a it's a daily perhaps transform, it's a daily practice and when you have the courage and you study enough depth that support the understanding that the light is never gone. Yeah,

it's my perception I see the light. I don't see the light that is causing me to feel the light is disappear. And I'm small and I'm not enough, and I'm not capable and I'm not confident.

But the online that I really loved that resonated with me, which I want to ask you about, Madonna, is the trust beyond logic, because I think that's the phase that most of us give up because we are living in a logical, functional, material world where if a train's not coming, you would leave this station. But here the trust beyond logic is now, I'm still going to wait here, or I'm going to act in a certain way, or I'm going to change these behaviors. Madonna, when did you have

to practice trust beyond logic in your life? The most where you I.

you can't control it. You have to allow it. So I would say that Challenger is like happening on a daily basis, Like even now, like I told you, you know, there's a pipe that bursts in the middle of my house and it's like creating havoc and all I was so excited to come to London, to be in my house in London, and everything's gone wrong, and I'm like, okay, So there has to be a reason for it. I can't just sit here and like be angry or upset,

like there's a illogical wisdom to everything that's happening. If that's not being attached to material things, then that could be an option. If that's because all these things are broken, I need to spend more time doing something else it's more important, then that's you know what I mean. There's always a reason for something so and you can't logically figure it out. Like I wish that I could have seen ten years I had that my son was going

to be my best friend. I was trying to make logical sense of everything, you know what I mean.

revealed or received? How do we know? Because like you said, it's trust beyond logic, and logic is like if I do this, then this will happen. And this is like my pipe's a burst. If I call the guy, he'll come and fix it, right, Like, that's the kind of way our brain works when we're trusting beyond logic. It could take ten years to receive a reason, It could take twenty years. It could take fifty years to really have a revelation on something. How is it often revealed

or received when it's not based on logic? So that makes sense, Yes, it makes sense.

But sometimes it's out of our control. Things don't go our way, like the situation with the experience of Madonna shared so certainty be on logic is that the struggle that I'm going through is for my best, but it doesn't allow me to be self destructive because if I want to speed up the process that I see the light at the end of the tunnel, I need to strengthen and we need friends, you need teachings, you need the right support to actually trust the universe loves you

and it's for the good as difficult it is. But then you need to ask a second question when you're ready, when you're not as reactive, what's my lesson? Why is it in my movie? And sometimes the answer is simple. Every time we experience rejection, what is rejection? Things don't go our way? It purifies us because our mind and our heart it's so attached to happiness, is when this will happen, which is not necessarily the big picture happiness

what really good for me? Yeah, So when you actually realize that actually that's a purification process and you open and you allow it to happen because all of us are not aligned with the true desire of the universe. If it would be aligned, we would be joyful every second and we will be giving unconditionally every second, and we'll think all day long, how can I add value to others? And because we are not there, and that's part of the gift of life gradual transformation. We need

moments of rejection. But when you question, you said, where am I to attached? What's my lesson? What do I need to let go? That will support to speed up the process of seeing the light. Because every fruit in order to become sweet and ripe is first hour. There's a process. Actually, the bottomist would say that more sour the fruit in the process sweeter at the end. It's so easy to throw the sour fruit and to say

it's a bad fruit. But if you're able to allow this process, and you need a lot of spiritual strength, because culture, society, our body, our mind is prone to react and to decide it's bad. That constant conversation in our mind, it's good, it's bad, I'm good, I'm bad. It's that reactive conversation we have within us that actually prolong in the process. So actually faster. We're embracing certainty,

biologic fasting. We're asking questions because at the beginning you cannot ask because you're in pain, so you just try to at least trust and embrace and embrace and beg something and asking. But when you're ready to ask, well, what's my lessons? Because very often we are so touched. We spoke about forgiveness to what's wrong with them, and we forget that the true purpose of life is my

own transformation and elevation. While I'm interacting with other people, So when the conversation is no longer about that good, that bad? How did they do it? And you bring it back to you, how can I elevate? How can I become better? How can I transform? Between me and my soul, between me and my perfected self? When you that's when you inject the energy, then things the light will be shown faster.

to be able to watch your studies as well that you do together. What's something that you're trying to work on right now that seems very fresh as a challenge, something to overcome.

that they're all okay, you know what I mean. And I always say to people when you're when you have that many kids, you're you're you're not really a parent, You're a manager, you know what I mean?

are projecting living through our children, wanting them to, you know.

who's trying to control the situation all the time. Either my weekly studies with Aton, or my daily prayers or whatever are often about you know, I don't want my children to do specific things. I want them to realize what they were put on this earth to do. I want them to elevate to their highest level of consciousness and how can I help that? That's it. But it's still hard not to be bothered by things things.

the answer? That question is so important, like what is

the lesson I need to learn? But a lot of us subconsciously may not like the answer we gain. That's where we have to keep learning. Again, what happens when you don't like the truth that you're experiencing.

we call it broad of shame. When you give to someone something without working, without earning, you're actually hurting them. And the parent might know I'm overgiving and it's not healthy for them, but I feel guilty to say no.

actually pause and ask that question. That will help you to get closer to the truth and be less in denial and a fork short term long term saying yes just to fix the pain, to give them what they want, to let them play with the phone, or say no and it's difficult and they feel bad and the blaming you, but you're doing it from place of love, because yeah, because what's driving us true desire to share in a long term.

say is wrong. And then in my twenties I was like so grateful for the discipline and the rules and the you know, I was only allowed to play video games for like X amount of time or whatever it was, and all of a sudden, everything my parents did, I was like, oh, wow, there was actually a lot of good in it. But during my teenage years that you know, I obviously didn't agree with anything they said, and there's such a reality to that feeling of the long term

point that you're making. The long term you realize, Oh, yeah, I'm glad you actually didn't just let me eat rubbish, or I'm really glad you didn't just let me waste hours playing video games. I'm really glad that you didn't do X, Y Z or whatever it may be. And so it's hard though, because the parent or the person. This could be romance, it could be in any relationship. You've got to be unpopular in the moment. You have to put us at your ego and you have to.

Depression very often it's a consequence of instant gratification, not willing to go through difficult process.

And what personally was the becoming or the overcoming that you went through to really receive that soul's purpose that you're living by. What was it that birth that idea within you.

keep it for myself. Hey wants more followers on Instagram.

is to connect with our purpose of sharing. So I know in my gut, in my soul, and it was beyond knowing, it was beyond logic, that that's what I came to do in this world, which is to spread to be a teacher for the teachings of Cabbalah while I'm studying. One of them is about being too perfectionist spiritually, you know, taking spiritual lesson to an imbalanced place. Something is wrong with me. So and I know as long as we're in this world and if we're truly not

settling for lesson, that's a message for everybody. I want to say, never settle for less wherever you are. This is just the beginning comparing to your next level potential. So those challenges were necessary to help me to evolve to where I'm at today. And of course this is just the beginning.

much from both of you today. Thank you so much, oh honor, thank you too much.