Jerrod Carmichael ON: Reframing Shame into Self- Growth & Emotional Blocks That Stop Us from Having a Healthy Relationship

The biggest conversations in my life, the scariest ones won't even lead to like devastation.

It just could potentially lead to.

Like a moment of discompany, discomfort, of cringe or whatever.

And it's worth it.

That's something authoring post the number one healthy well in his podcast Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. It means the world to me that we have this amazing community and I've just been seeing the engagement, the connection that you're all having recently, all the Instagram posts, the TikTok post,

Yeah, yeah, like yeah, last season, right, it was nice.

I've done it for but it was nice to like go back.

And yeah, she's a huge fan, she's I'm a fan of hers, Like I told her that, Like obviously, like a comedian that comes out and is incredibly brave, you know, it's rare. And she was at a time where it was really hard where you you really really got canceled for real, you know what I mean, like actually like the show could get canceled, you know, like, and she was so brave and also incredibly good at her job.

Yeah, you know what I mean. And and and that's yeah, that's great.

Yeah, I love it. Well, it brought us together, so that's what I mean. A few seconds ago, you were saying that you've been watching my stuff on Instagram. But when I look at you, you're very private on social media and you don't post a lot. I wanted to understand, was that intentional?

Is that I got my little private I have my private ig that is so weird and someone called me out on it is like you're private and verified, and like it's it's it's still it's really like my publicists like set it up with the intention of like posting about shows and the like. And I'm someone who doesn't want attention unless like I asked for it. I'm probably the worst celebrity whatever ever because I never really chase it. I really just like to work and then present that

How's that going?

Okay, it's okay, Yeah, yeah, no, it's a it's I've become funnier, I think, like on stage and stuff by not performing, like by being truthful, like yeah, yeah, I think it's a better version of myself.

But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to in life, it's hard to do.

That well, that must feel very comforting, I can imagine, because I feel like for so many performers, there's someone on stage because that's their job, and then there's someone at home because that's who they are, and so there's always this conflict inside and outside. What for you has been like the biggest impact on who you are today? Like if you had to say, this is a recipe of how I was created, what would you add to that recipe to say, like Gerard is a little bit of this and.

A little bit of that, like sugar and spice. Yeah, it's a big question.

It's a big question, huge question.

I don't know if I'll be able to fully answer it because like, you know, I'm influenced by you know, the time I'm in, the who I am being American, all of those things that we're all influenced by as a performer, influenced by you know, everyone from Cosby to you know, Jack Benny to you know to Rock and Chappelle and really good people like people who are really

Are scary is funnier.

I found for the work and being around people that I don't have to try and protect my words with is more confident.

Yeah, when when when you were growing up? Like what was the environment for you growing up? We just talked about North Carolina, which is where you were born and raised, right, So like what was the environment like when you were growing up and what you know?

For you?

How early was it that you discovered that this was going to be a path in life, because I think for me, I'm always intrigued to figure out how people discover things they're passionate about and things that they love, because that's so rare. How early was it for you and what was the environment that you grew up in?

It was pretty early.

Like I was a kid that performed a lot, Like I asked for a microphone every year at Christmas. That was like my accountant. I was like obsessed with microphones as a kid. I sing on the choir even when I was like a like three. My mom was an usher and she would after church like I would cry, and so she helped me up to the mic so I could. I just like I like it. I really respect it. It's powerful, it amplifies your voice. People listen to it like so intimately in a performance setting even now,

Doing a show.

If I'm doing a show and I put up tickets and people spend money for tickets and then they drive out to the venue and they sit there and they wait for you and then they listen to you, Like that's that's asking a lot. And so especially recently, like just like respect that more, you know, like like I think I have the respect that has been growing in me since childhood. For the nudging of a frame got me out to LA. But it was, uh yeah, yeah, I love performance.

I love hearing that because I feel the same way that you know. Some some people listen to this podcast every day, so they listen to the two new episodes

Potentially like written words word is.

So I always thought it was crazy that Twitter uses the word published, right, because like it's like it induces in me such anxiety just thinking about the how permanent it is in placing things out there that you can't get back. And like that's why, like, if I'm going to perform, I think it's like I don't do social media because I would like to put all of that energy and I don't even say I don't do social media.

And then present that. And I'm kind of repeating myself.

No no, no, no, deeper into it, yeah, deeper into it. And what's your creative process? Like you're saying you put all of your energy, but like when you're building a special or one of those TV shows, like how do you even start? Like where, where's the process? What's the starting point? Like how do you get inspired at the beginning of it?

I mean it's a spark of something, you know, something. A lot of times it's like anger. I think that's started this, just like a little angry. Then just started performing, doing clubs and then solo shows and then uh, you know, preparing to do it for television and like like I do stand up for specials. I think at my core that's like like I think my attention reads better in that medium, and working backward from what that is, then you know, take the writing and like form a show

In art.

It's just that attempt like making a special and that's like my attemp. I'm sorry, I'm probably not.

I mean, that's a great answer to hear the that honestly, that's that's not I'm speaking.

I'm trying not to be like evasive about it.

It really is just like it's I've been writing for years, like like, and I'm always writing. Sometimes that becomes a show, sometimes it becomes something that like it's mostly like most of creating is just a bunch of like trying and failing that no one sees, you know, and like, uh, you know, failing in my own writing, failing in my own head over and over and over and over again, and like trying to make something, write a show, you know, structure a show.

Yeah. But I love what you said that anger or frustration with your own identity and your secrets. I mean that that whole concept is so real. I think for so many of us, whatever that secret may be, whatever that identity may be personally.

I say to like, you know, my friends, like I really think, like everybody's in the closet about something.

Yeah, right, there's a thing.

Shame is such a powerful emotion of strong I mean, plenty of books about just how it can dictate the course of your life and your actions and your behavior, and so much is driven by shame, and so much of who we are is just our attempts to hide that little piece of ourselves that can never be seen. At least It's been a common experience amongst people I've talked to in friends. I'm sure you get a high

I'm the funniest.

That's a scary question, but the shame parts. I love that you went in that direction because I think that naturally, shame is one of those topics that isn't talked about a lot publicly, So to even bring it up in a podcast is great because we can actually talk about it. But I find like we also live in a culture where shaming has become more normal. Right, So we're talking about a time when we realize how powerful shame is as an emotion and how much it limits us from

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we have an opportunity to speak a lot. It's it's it's so much of that, so much of that, and to speak constantly and emotionally, you know, it's it's hard to like have intention in every tweet, in every post and every.

Should we is the question?

Yeah, yeah, well it's it's even more powerful than the words spoken in a private setting, you know, because it's something that is even if you have one follower, you know, it has the potential of being seen and expressed amongst others. So like, you know, your intention reads and and yeah,

Like expressing that much.

Like I have this theory that we all are kind of becoming our own news channel, Like we're all the news and we have to we're all CNN or Fox or whatever, and we all have to fill the time, like we have to fill the space. Like and the more you do it, the more inclinent you are to do it. And again, it's just hard to keep that marriat to intention, you know, like the sheer volume if you just speak. If I wake up in the morning,

Yeah, just the sheer volume.

Yep. I like that theory. I like that theory a lot. That's cool because I went to someone's house once and it's, without doubt the coolest house I've ever been to.

This is a very cool house. So you're saying that from a very cool.

House, No, but this was like this is like and I'm saying it's a cool house, not because of the bil not because of the grandeur. Not same with this. I don't think that's why I think I like my own house, was because of what he had in it. So he had a whole war, and he called it the fake news war because it was every piece of news that was published before they knew the time. So back in the day, if a newspaper was being printed, if a game wasn't over, they'd have to print the

Yeah.

Well, because things change.

You know, your your my opinion on an album, for instance, even just something as trivial as like you know, my my feelings toward a song or an album or whatever, like it changes. It changes over the course of a week. It changes through how I've listened to it.

You know.

I imagine if I were just talking publicly about Kendrick's last album, which I went from not understanding to not liking to only liking the interludes to then listening to it while I was getting a Mandy petty and I turned the volume halfway down so I could like actually

And some people would argue that the journey is authenticity, Yes, but what is what is authenticity to you as a comedian, as someone who's like the theories that you just said, Like, how do you how do you define what is authentic and real and what isn't for you?

I try, And a lot of things are true, right like you can go I could. I was presenting a lot of true things right, like things that I thought were hard facts or perspective that people wouldn't want.

To say out loud or be able to tolerate.

And you know, I did believe it and it was true, but it wasn't like in my eyes, the most compelling version of the truth I've found like now, like when working, I run towards things I'm afraid of and that that have personal consequence in my life. So talking about me, because I never really talked about myself before, never considered myself a storyteller, and this is something I'm in many

What was what was the first thing you think you ever combated through that art exploration internally as a fear Like I love that idea that your storytelling now or your special is there a exploration of something you're scared of? What was the first ever thing? Do you remember that you were scared of?

No, that's I kind of baby stepped into my last project. So I was like, I made these documentaries for HBO or I went home and I was confronting like my father's adultery and my mother's forgiveness of him. And I tried to come out to my mom, but I did it in a very it was fearful, so like I was like I hooked up with dudes before, like just like kind of waiting for a reaction, you know, and it wasn't full truth. And then you know, some time later I came out to my family and it had

Means to me.

Yeah, but it's you know it great again, like kind of personal consequence. And so my last Special Rothaniel was me, Yeah, you know, really kind of drawn a line in the sand with my family coming out publicly, contending with my father's adultery, its effect on me, the kind of generational trauma.

Calls by adultery, calls by having other.

Kids outside the marriage that were kept secrets, and how just gears of secrets like kind of repressed us and repressed me into a liar, you know, not unable a liar and unable to tell my own truth. And so I look at the special as being the synopsis could read like on HBO, like man afraid of heights jumps out of an airplane for the first time. Yeah, like that was my last Special, Like that was the the intention was doing the scariest thing I could imagine. I

Yeah, that's I mean that even just hearing you say that, I man, that is so inspiring as a creative person like to hear that your creative impetus or intentional process is to confront a fear, a shame, something that difficult. You're doing it through comedy, which is even harder in one sense because you're making these extremely deep traumatic events, you know, lighthearted to some degree where people are able to be entertained.

But the thing is, what I found with audiences is that when I go, when I share things that are personal to me, no matter what the danger, and i'veset things that are I mean, this has happened in real time, and like it's like tweets, like art is capturing a moment in time. That's why I try and focus all the energy on one thing, like my my special is just one ig live, you know what I mean. It's like it's like the one thing that I focused on.

I'm all for.

Whether you like it or not, kind of comedy, free speech. You have every right to do that, like in comedians do that, and I did that, I mean most of my career, but still up until recently was a lot of that trying to say the thing I like to think of mine was more intellectual. But that's my own

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love Yeah, I get that. You've said. It's interesting though, your language is like full of like intention truth, Like.

Yeah, I almost hate that.

I almost hate it because it's like these are powerful words that obviously get overused, and I'm sure I'm overusing I.

Don't think you are the word platform, like I hate the word.

I don't think you're overusing them. I feel like I don't think you're overusing them from at least what I'm I'm generating from this conversation, Like I guess, I guess what I'm fascinated by is like what you said, you said you were I think you used the word and I could have got the word room where you said you were reconstructing a relationship with God or reframing that. And then you said, let me define what prayer is to me, Yes, do both those things what you said, I pray.

It's in many ways one and the same because I think my entire life, I've kind of believed this but didn't have the language to articulate how I felt. And that is truly taking the Christianity that I was taught growing up my whole life to church every Sunday, even when my mama worked, I went with my grandma sang on the choir. Uh Sunday school class into regular service.

I knew that. Yeah, you know, that's why you connect.

With it, and it's it is there, you know, and it's divinity that that we all have access to. But it's always like the you know practice that's rough, right, because it's easier. It was easier for me, I want

And.

Just like realizing that God is me functioning as I can you know, and things function as they can access to good, like we all have access to good, even through tragedy, even through pain. You know, those words of the Bible become different, they hit a little different when you accept yourself as innately divine right. You know, all things work for good, for through God who strengthens me, you know, like Philippians, is.

Is something that you know, you, Oh, I can use all of this. We're good.

I can take what you know, I can take the rubble or things from the ashes and make something new out of this and continue forward, like with a sense of purpose, with a sense of duty, I can form that, you know, taking tragedy. And we see it all the time, like you know parents, some children who've gone through tragedies, or you know people just with loved ones who've experienced something and then they take what's been destroyed and they make something new, you know. And that is the Bible.

I love hearing your thought process because it's so real, Like you're so in it. And as someone who's created did a piece of art based on a fear, you've had to live through that fear again and again and again in the creation process. How did it feel. Did you feel that making a piece of art on that relinquished a fear and now you can move on to another shame or another guilt or another fear or what was the what was it like? Yeah? Does that make sense?

Yeah? Yeah?

And speaking of that fear, like I was, like I did a few shows on the role in preparation for the special, and like I was like coming out to audience members that knew me like every night, like like it was like a new It was like jumping off a cliff.

Like that's what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it was a lot, but it is how I knew it's the direction I needed to go in because it did scare me and you know, I've learned to trust that feeling isn't always that I'm going in the wrong direction, but in fact that I'm going there's like.

A lot of fertile ground.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the fear. It just stays.

It just stays the whole time, the whole time until it's released, and then you kind of release the fear.

Did you feel you released the fear when that happened or.

Yeah, in many ways, Well, in many ways because I feel more truthful publicly now, which feels great.

Yeah, that feels really really good.

Yeah, and so I don't have the fear of being found out in that way. But they're still I'm definitely still fighting through shame and how it's manifested itself in my life through you know, things really like that I could call hypochondria or OCD or whatever, but really like anxieties rooted in shame that I'm working through and that I'm trying to understand better myself, and I feel it like my job to explore that. You know, so I kind of chase that feeling. I don't recommend it.

I was just about to say, I was like, how do you recommend people do this? Because I think that whether you're a performer or not, we all have to go through this process.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do recommend for whatever it's worth me saying like that, you run toward all of the things that you're afraid of in a truthful way, contend with it with an open mind.

I think that's very very important.

How did you do it in a way that didn't break you or hurt you or because I think that's where people are scared of shame and guilt because it feels like a broken piece of glass, and so when you pick up a broken piece of glass, you could get caught. So people like, oh, it's just better to just shove it away.

Yeah, I don't know, and I'm still like, you know, I feel like I'm still picking it up. But good friends very very important in my case. And you know, people that remind me where the ground is, you know, just get caught up in all of it, all of it. Anxiety is real. I'm recently admitting that I experience anxiety. I ran away from admitting that much of my life.

Yeah, I can relate to that. I remember a few years ago, my mum would always tell me, I think you're stressed, and I'd be like, I'm not stressed, I'm fine. And I didn't even want to admit it to myself. So it's not that I was lying to her. I was lying to myself. I didn't even want to because I was scared that if I let that in then that would change me somehow. That blocked me stop. Yeah. Yeah, And I didn't realize that, and that you're weak totally.

The thought that you're weak weak there, Oh you're being consumed by these oh this small little thing is eating you up, and it's just like yeah.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, and it is yeah, it is.

Yeah.

And I had a friend that I remember was going through depression very early on, and like this when we were much younger, and I didn't I was like, how can you be depressed? You've got nothing to be you know, that kind of mindset, and then you go for something yourself and you go, oh God. I experienced depression and I was scared of accepting it, and it took me. It was the same for me. It was the weak aspect.

And any excuse not to correct confront it right.

Confront it, and I feel like you just keep putting it off. And now I've realized that I need to talk to that feeling or emotion when it arises, because me putting it away just makes it get bigger and darker and deeper. And that's what I find so interesting doing it through art, because when you're putting it out in front of other people again, now it's their mind. Their impression gets involved too, Like what they're going to

Yeah, you know, probably emotional blocks that like stopped me from being in like a healthy relationship with with someone you know, and and as someone who came out publicly later, I realized that there are phases and things that I go through and that it's normal to go through.

But but just understanding those.

Blocks has been interesting to me as a late and dealing with the the things that don't sound cool. Give me an example, Yeah, well, well only because not that I not not even that I don't want to, but but I'm only respecting that on stage is a different place. Yes, that that allows me to say things. I get that that like that, Like I may say something that I'm like, well, now we need another hour, you know, I'm like, well can we can I explain everything that led to that?

You know, run from.

I like, how simple you went back to. It's just like good friends, like you know friends. It just it sounds like such a basic thing. And I was. We had some friends over that hadn't seen for years this weekend and we were all just appreciating that as well in terms of I remember, I've been coaching people for a long time and that was really what my work was before I did any of what I do today, and all I ever met was people who were lonely

Oh it's difficult, and it's almost yeah, and it's almost a lot of the things that drive you to be successful are isolating. Like there is a lot of accepted selfishness, even amongst frank like I at times have been a

Or however I justified it, and I still do that.

I still do that like that, Like I can relate like like in I and I and I value my work and so specifically in art, like it's like license to sometimes indulge in like behavior or in emotions that are harmful to relationships. And I can't tell if that's Look, it's not okay because it's like but it's like an occupation hazard.

Occupational has it?

Yeah, Yeah, it's an occupational hazard. It's like you're I don't know, I have to go there, like I have to go into this cave.

Well, I think the part I find fascinating about it is the awareness of it, right, I think the lack of awareness. A lot of people may be doing that but they don't even know why. Yeah, Whereas and I can relate to a lot of that, like I've I've definitely been very clear with friends, family, things like that about what I can and can't do based on what I'm working on. But it's different when it's carved out, when it's communica. Yeah, when it's yeah, right, it helps exactly helps.

It definitely helps me.

Like, and that's a part of honesty and not lying

That's how I'm feeling today.

Yeah, So working on like I don't even know if we're going to get to it, and he's like, look, then i'll make it as a loose plan exactly, and I'll either see you at three or in two weeks.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's what we're so scared of communicating. And that's what I feel the same way I was talking about in relationships, So with my wife, for a long time, i'd always be like three nights three nights this week, I just need to spend time alone. You can say that, or you can say, hey, these three nights I'm working on this thing, which means I need some time and space. That's totally different to a these three nights, I'm just going to be And it takes

But saying the thing.

Saying the thing scared potentially awkward and it's not even that A lot of times, like the big conversations in my life, the scariest ones are that won't even lead to like devastation, It just could potentially lead to like a moment of.

Discomfort, discomfort of cringe or whatever. And it's worth it. It's worth it.

My friends and I'm closest with have caught essentially have caught me out on a lie, which is a difficult thing to do, and we survived it and we're closer because of it.

That's impressive. Yeah, that's impressive. Most people can't take that. But that's why it comes back to awareness. Like even earlier you mentioned ego and it was like even the ability to see your own ego is a healthy sense of awareness. I mean, we're in this attention economy right now, where, like you said, we talked about this. We started with this, the idea that everyone's trying to grapple for people's attention.

To raising their children and on the internet, like people are like camera like the children are like sleeping.

But with that, like the attention part, like how is it that then in a world where then you're trying you're saying that you're still you still have to compete for attention, but you're trying to do it for fear and exploration and art like.

Well, because to me, that's like interesting to me, it's interesting because it's scary and it's like yeah, emotion too for me, and like not only respecting people's time, but realizing, you know, just how hard it is to get anyone's attention for a moment and to make people feel anything, you know, because that's also if you're inundated with bad nabs even like you you know, people a either seek good news through their art or be like you know,

It's why I love sports. Sports is true.

I watch I don't even watch sports, but I watch ESPN all day every day.

Sports Center around the Horn.

Yeah, PTI like just like like facts, facts, facts, truth, truth, truth, opinions, like plenty of opinions. It's funny. It's just an honest what's your favorite book whatever? Oh right, I also like straight things for gay reasons. So like, I'm like really obsessed with the lighting of basketball. You know, this stadium is like, you know, this arena is gorgeous, you know, like you know, the golden light of the garden or whatever. Like I'm but but I'm obsessed with the production of it.

Know that you never heard that sports is true, it's.

A TV show like my you know friends who really truly loves sports. But I'm like, yeah, the NBA is just like a long running television program. Yeah, you know, like Michael Jordan was one of my favorite stars of that program. He got me to watch it on TV. You know, like it's you know, a tour. It's a televised tour.

Yeah, that's I mean, that's that's yeah, that's an interesting way to see. I mean I'm obsessed with soccer football.

Yeah, but the rules of performance when I go to games, you know, it's like it's a full show. They're also trying to keep the audience attention the whole time.

America, it's a show in England. Yeah, in England it's not like that. Oh no, on sports in England there is no entertainment, but the.

Space that's nice.

Even advertising in England seems so like when you're going down like in London, if you're walking down the strand. Part of what makes it gorgeous is that it's just like these really like these giant brick buildings that reflect lightwell and and have No, it's not a lot of ads.

Yeah yeah, it's just like clean.

Yeah. And sports is like that. You won't you see sponsors on shirts obviously, and sponsors around the pitch, but it's it's different. Like I realized that when I came to the US. I was like, oh wow, everything's entertainment everything, you know, just a spool.

Yeah, yeah, you guys do do the giant soccer I don't like. I mean some of the jerseys are cool.

I don't like it. On the NBA jerseys, it's like not worth.

The yeah, quick and loans right here, like give a kid a clean like jersey.

I love God.

But yeah, yeah, it's like, I mean, America has done it in a way that's just so it's so part of the culture.

It's like even like movies.

You know, I fought really hard in my movie to even keep just like coke bottles or something, because that is like to me, that looks American looking at a photo photograph of New York or LA, like I could in many places recognize it, but the advertisements and the pure ubiquity of it totally.

Yeah, what's your take on I guess as looking at I love how you have theories and insights and all different industries, looking at the advertising industry or looking at product placement, looking at that, like, is there do you have any interesting theories about how ads have changed? Because

Yeah, I'm susceptible to me too, I loved to have an iPhone. iPhones aren't even the best phones, but I bought one, Like I see pixels and stuff, I'm like, that is amazing. Well, I mean, no, what I'm gonna like text my friends from like a green bubble, but like it's because of the like it really sold like Apple sold me on a dream and I'm a sucker who bought it, and like and it's sleeking.

It's cool.

I mean, they're obviously great qualities to whatever, but like, like I'm very susceptible to things. I'm susceptible to words and images just like you know, and so that's part of the reason it's hard for me to see things because I know, like it's a lot for me. That's why I have to like do the YouTube no ads. Yeah,

You know.

Obviously Geico changed the world. Yeah, definitely there it should be some type of award just like yeah, like that Gecko should win like thing of the year, Like.

Yeah, time Gecko.

Of the Year because it's like like I mean it did like it made everything not about the product, just like removed from it.

I think that's my opinion. My I probably have an interesting view on this. I love good advertising. Yeah, I respect it, Yeah, because I'm like, if that's if it's true. Obviously it's true. That's that's a big part of it. But I love it when someone has thought about the aesthetics, someone has thought about the presentation. I can respect that that required a lot of brain power, right, It required

I mean, bro, it's like good advertising, Like, oh well it's I also respect the Edward Burnet's you know, manipulation of it all, just like, man, you really got me, you really get just.

But yeah, but there's something there is fascinating to see. Who had the ability to shift human behavior that is fascinating to observe. And I think if we observed that more, I think we wouldn't get as sucked in by it, right, Like, because what we're saying is we like good advertising, but we know when it's advertising. Yeah, And so I'm not saying I can I'm not susceptible to it, but I'm saying that being able to see what's working on me.

Well, it's helpful.

Yeah, it's just that exactly that that what you're being presented. Okay, this is a this is probably a lot. So the two parts. One, I'm perpetually trying to change my mother and test their capacity for change and her ability to question the source. Hey, is religion, as you've learned it something that may have been manipulated over time? And like, are all of these things like the divine word of a divine being or are they influenced by kings and

Right.

It's just like because like the belief of conspiracy is like why we know anti vaxxers, right, Like, it's just like every everyone's like but Tuskegee experiment. But I'm like one that doesn't really make sense because to me, of the government's intention was to control the population. Then when they put the thing in the vaccine that actually saves you and kill everybody else.

That's a conspiracy.

You know. That's a wild thing to say too, but like but like, but like it's just a rabbit hole of never ending things. So it's and I get that it's difficult to know truth in news source now, but like it's trying to find middle ground between like having a respectable I don't know, your own internal checks and balances for where you get your information and where you get the information that dictates your life.

And it's hard. It's it's just plain Yes, it's hard because it's like it's exhausting. Its exhausting. Where do it go? And I don't And I want to be honest and said, there isn't a place to say, hey, go to this website that gives you the best news, because there isn't, like you know, and so you're always going to have that, And I I wonder how.

You'll definitely be less happy, Yeah, like that that's a thing, Like with information, you'll be less out. But I think we're all less happy anyway because we're receiving so much information anyway, so you might as well, like receive information that forces you to self examine correct self explorer.

So it's like we're inundated with in any.

Way, Yeah, if you can make time for.

But we make.

Time, you know what I mean, Like we do make time like the busiest person, like like you know, all my front and I know that I have like the luxury of not having a day job. It's half a luxury because I do need to be busy to not

Well, I think that you just hit on something really powerful. Like for a long time, I believe that what people most needed was care and love, and I started to realize that for most people, they weren't searching for that. They're searching for safety. Safety, and an ideology. Safety in a relationship, safety and security and stability is what people

On everything, everything.

But that requires you to recognize that it's more unsafe to not examine.

Yes, what you think, Yeah, that's what. That's a giant leap.

That's a giant lead.

It's a very very giant leap.

And it's like it's easier to live under the law of platitudes, you know, and not explore.

How do you find as a as obviously, like as a comedian then as an actor, right, and like you're directing, you're you're creating, Like how does that help you explore

I've been doing that, and I'm trying to do less of that. I don't want to be a multi hyphen. I'm not necessarily chasing that. I do think that I have a skill in multiple things, but I would like to create focused work and and and so even like acting in directing, my my last movie is something that I would never do again, and I'm very thankful. I believe we pulled it off and made something that can resonate with people. That I would rather focus on one thing.

And I have more access to.

Different intention now, uh, and so I am excited to act more Now. I feel like my whole career is you know, just been me learning and building up until even it will continue to be that. But recently I feel like I've had more access to the truth and made like a conscious decision to do that going forward, or at least to try so.

So I think that would make whatever I'm doing better. But yeah, sure, that's like the common threat.

Yeah, I felt that because even the idea in the movie of like two men making a suicide pack, like that concept.

Only works if you play it truthfully. People were afraid of that movie. On the counter three was very hard to get financed. Nobody wanted to do it, you know, very luckily found Two.

What was the reason that people don't like making movies?

Well, well, one because what comedy it's with the assumption that it isn't truthful and that it will be made fun of and just dismissed and made light of. Right, And I like my show, and like I've always believe that you can find like a lot of humor while taking things seriously, you know, like and to me, that's

They really think this is the end.

These two, these two characters and Avou really believe that, and we take seriously the reasons they're there, and it just makes a product that keeps my attention. I think people have respected it and respect the film more because it takes depression seriously. It takes treatment of it seriously,

Yeah. Yeah, it was hard.

It was really hard, know one, Like it cost me a lot of my own money, like went broke making the movie, you know what I mean, Like like it was it was really really hard, but really worth it, really worth even just as an artistic statement of fearlessness to explore it was worth it.

I mean, you know, just I'd seen your work and I think when you sit down with someone and this is why do the podcast, it's like to really hear about why they do it, and then you get a deeper appreciation of what someone does when you know why they do it and how they think about it and how far they go off the edge to do it. And I just find you really inspiring on in a different way than than i'd usually imagine with comedy, because it's not just enterainment, it's not just galvanizing a crowd.

I really appreciate you saying that. My friend Bowl always says that, like more the access to fearlessness, right, and like, I'm trying to make things that report on these moments where I gain access to like it's yeah, it's almost like journalism.

It's really it's really powerful. It's super powerful I mean I feel moved by it personally because it helps me think about how if that's your intention behind the work you're doing, that's the same as any other And if someone is in tension of improving people's lives, that's exactly

Yeah, yeah, it's it's the it's the thing that most has.

My attention right, Like it's like it's like, all right, there's a monster under the bed. Okay, well I could sit here, I could eat popcorn, I can watch TV, I can think about anything else. Everything in my life is about this monster, like until I look, and I want to make art about looking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. Jared, It's been so awsome talking to you.

This is great.

We taking the time, this is I mean, I'm I'm genuinely like, this has been one of the most fun conversations I've had in a long time. And it's because the reason why I do this for myself is I love sitting down with people where I don't know where things are going, Like I don't know where the conversation is going to go. Yeah, yeah, it's fun, and that's what I enjoy so much because I was like, I just want to get to know this fascinating human like.

Yeah, no, it feels free, associative and therapeutic. So I really appreciate you and you have beautiful lives.

Ah, that's what, that's what.

It's almost too powerful. I had to look away a couple of times.

I love it. I love the sound of your voice. I can listen to your voice, so we've got equal appreciated. I was like, his voice is just so nice.

We're going to collab on an ASMR channel.

I'm in, except my eyes don't help them much.

People gaze and I'll read.

I'm in. You let me know, but Jered, we end every episode with the final five. This is the fast five, so the questions have to be answered in one word or one sentence maximum wowe word to one sentence? All right. The first question is what is the best advice you've ever received?

Don't take advice?

Yeah, what is the worst advice you've ever received?

Listen?

I love it? Question number three, I think we already answered this through the podcast, but I always like that, how would you describe your current purpose with what you're doing?

Find truth? Love? That?

Question number four is what is something that you used to value that you don't value anymore?

Privacy?

Mm? Why did they? I'm going to go off piece first. That's a really interesting answer. You didn't used to value privacy before what made you start to value it?

I realized that a lot of the things that I wanted to be private were because I was ashamed of them. So I realized that a lot of like people will share anything and quickly I'll tell yeah, please, I want to know sorry about Like my father that kind of

I talk about like his you know, the kids.

That he's had that were a secret for many years, and my sexuality and and like and I'm like, one, you had all these kids, like you you made it public, like you had children, like you made a public you call it that, you call it put in our business out there because you're ashamed of it. My father, this is a man who will talk to any stranger who will listen in an I hoop lobby about like his open heart surgery and like any private personal like talk

I f I'm fascinating about that is how does your I'm going to tell this is not our fast five now and we get to the fifth to one last, But how do you find that, as someone who's had to go through their shame, go through that, uncover it, how do you extend that same process to your father and mother and other people you meet, because now you know how hard it is to do that, and when you see their resistance and reluctance to do it, how does that change how you feel about them?

With their shame, It's hard to be around. It's hard to be around.

And I realized that in some ways extreme and in some ways it's a luxury to be able to like not talk to certain people in my life, because there are kids who feel that way around their parents, and I wouldn't suggest.

That they run away from home, you know what I mean?

Like but like, so there are people who have jobs and reasons that it is they can't be fully truthful and I and I do respect that, but I it's hard for me again the monster in the bed. If there's one thing that it's hard to talk about, then it's hard for me to talk about anything. And so right now is my family, my mother and my father come to terms with me being gay. It's difficult to talk to them because we can talk about everything else.

And I love that you're giving yourself the permission to do that because I think that is this step process towards whatever evolution it goes on. It's like when we don't give ourselves permission to be in the uncomfortable of like, well, I can't talk about this, so I can't talk about anything else. We're like, no, no, I don't want to be that because that makes me a bad person, right, A lot to be a shame around that.

Yeah yeah, yeah, No, Permission is a good it's a great word.

Yeah.

Yeah. Otherwise you just live in the cycle. It's crazy easy repeat the past to stay in that jail.

Yeah, and you feel a bitterness internally, yes, because you never freed yourself.

Yes, yes, yes, you stayed.

Yeah all right. Fifth and final question of the whole interview is if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow. What would it be.

I do believe that do unto others stands, you know, I think that's probably the it's the golden rule and whatever. But like if that were somehow law, do unto others as you would have done unto you, from seeing the divinity in people to being truthful with people, like the things that you want, you know, I think you would give more at least.

You know, Gerard Comic or everyone. I hope just the first and many times we get to hang out.

Yeah more, I feel like I feel like there's still like packets.

Yeah, this is the first to many, this is the first and man more pockets. And it's always nice get into lay the land of someone's foundational thinking and then get to learn more. But thank you so much for doing this. Any last messages, anything you want to everyone who's been listening, watching back at home or whether you're in the car or whether you're at work, wherever you are, make sure you share what you learned, what you took away,