Jane Goodall ON: Winning the War on Nature & How Simple Actions Make Big Changes

in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, it's not every week that you get to sit down with one of your heroes and legends. I am not I am not overestimating at all. This is someone that was on my original list of people I wanted to sit down with when I started this podcast.

You know that I want to sit down with thinkers, activists, philanthropists, and people that are doing work in the world that inspires me and can inspire all of us to do more. I'm speaking about the one and only Jane Goodall. Jane, thank you so much for being with me here today. I am so grateful to spend this time with you, and I thank you for giving me this opportunity. Well, thank you for inviting me, and I'm sure we're going

to have a wonderful conversation. Absolutely, Jane. Whereabouts in the world are you right now? I'm in England, south of England, Bournemouth, in the house where I grew up, where I have been grounded since the beginning of the pandemic. Wow. I read that one of your favorite novel series was Tarzan. I wanted to know what about that story lights you

up and why it's one of your favorites. Well, actually, you know, when I look at the favorites, Well, actually you know when I look at the original Tarzan of the Apes fired me. I was ten years old and ah, I wanted to go to Africa. I wanted to live with wild animals in the forest. I thought Tarzan married the wrong Jane. If I read the book now, I don't like it because there's an awful lot of killing and death and all that stuff. But that's what inspired me,

and that's what made my dream. I will go to Africa, live with wild animals and write books about them. Because back then, girl, I mean, we're going back like seventy eight years or something. Girls weren't scientists. No girls went out in the forest. Everybody laughed at me, Jane, dream

about something you can achieve, not my amazing mother. She said, if you really want to do something like this, well you're going to have to work very hard, take advantage of every opportunity, and if you don't give up, maybe

you'll find a way. Incredible advice from your mother. What do you think it was about her that she was able to have that vision and that encouragement for you, Apart from her love for you, what is it that you think made her special in that way, especially at a time when women were being discouraged from anything of the sort. She had a wonderful mother who was kind of way ahead of her time, and she had an extraordinary father who was a congregational minister. My one sadness

I never met him. He died before I was born. But everything I've read about him, you know he used to go out in the woods. He would take his children out and tell them about nature, and I know that I would have got on so well with him. So basically, my mother was special because she had special parents, and that's important for us to know. Now. I attribute much of who I am and what I've done, to the fact that my mother supported me when I was

a child. How did it affect you, Jane, when you had this dream and this vision but people around you told you it wasn't possible. I mean, the words you shared of people that you spoke to sounded very discouraging, especially for a young person. And I feel today a lot of young people here different things, but it's the same message. You're not smart enough, you're not good enough, you're not the right person. It's not the right time. How did that make you feel? And how did you

process that at the time. Well, you see, because I had this supportive family. It was only my mother. I lived with her, and when war began. I grew up in World War two, and when the war began, Mom brought me and my sister to live with her mother here this house, and it was with my mother's two sisters, and her brother came as often as he could from London. He was a surgeon. He had to deal with the victims of the blitz. You know, was bomb day after

day after day. So I was just surrounded by this supportive family of extraordinary people, and I didn't care what the outside world said the reason I take the se message around the world what my mother said to me. Hundreds of young people have written to me or said to me, Jane, I wondered, thank you because you taught me.

Because you did it, I can do it too. That's a beautiful message, and it's amazing to hear it from you, especially with your life journey, and I mean living through World War Two as well, and just that whole period of your life that you've been through. I love that you're sharing that message, Jane. I think it's such a brilliant, brilliant,

brilliant voice that we all need to hear today. And unfortunately, it seems that the world is always dealing with a new set of critics, more discouragement, and a new set of cynicism or skepticism, and we need voices like yours that continue to break them down and help inspire us to think differently. I'm very grateful I grew up in the war because I learned to take nothing for granted.

You know, everything was ration food and clothes and petrol everything, And you know, wasting food was something we wouldn't have dreamed of. If something fell on the floor, you at it anyway, and nothing was wasted, nothing, and you didn't even take life for granted because your family's friends were dying. So growing up in the war I think helped to make me what I am without any question. Yeah, how

do how do we process that today? When you know my generation and obviously younger generations, we're not growing up at that time, And sometimes people feel guilty. They feel well, I haven't had that experience, so I don't know how to live with that gratitude or not take things for granted, or sometimes people feel well, I've got other problems today. How do you recommend people today process that gift and opportunities that we have today. Well, I think actually we're

living through a war right now. I lived through the war with the Nazi Germans. This war is against nature, and I think people need to realize that we're part of the natural world, we're not separate from it, and we shouldn't take nature's bounty for granted because in some places, because of this crazy idea that we can have unlimited economic development on a planet with finite natural resources, already in some places they're being used up faster than nature

can replenish them. So once young people understand this, they too can learn not to take nature's bounty for granted, because it won't go on forever unless we develop a different relationship with mother Nature. I mean, Jane, you've probably seen across the decades the war as you describe it, Has the war got better, has it got worse? Wherever you see the victims of the war is what have been the greatest losses of this war as you described

it well? That you know, on the plus side, there's a growing awareness, and I think that's been helped by the pandemic, quite honestly, because you know, people have when you know, there was a brief period of time when industry closed down, there was less traffic, when countries went into shutdown, and you can imagine in some cities where the air was polluted and there was just traffic and cement, they got a little glimpse of how things should be,

like looking up and seek stars bright in the night sky instead of through a haze of pollution or even not at all, and hearing birds they're always there, but they couldn't hear them because of the traffic. So it's woken people up to how the world could be and should be, and they won't want to go back to that level of pollution and noise. And so that's a sign of hope that more young people are understanding we need to change this somehow, somehow, we need to get

back to a better relationship with mother nature. What are some of the simple and practical things you think that people can do in their own homes and their own spaces to start that journey. What would you recommend to them? If people are saying, you know, I see that, Jane, I do see that. I do see I prefer it when the world is impoluted. I do see that we are taking nature for granted. But what do I do? What can I do? If I do one thing? How's

that going to help? When people have that mentality, how do you respond to that? Well, it's basically it's more than just one thing that I don't think there's any one thing. It's a whole plethora of things. And the main thing for young people is to help them understand and adults too. Every single day, every single one of us makes some impact on the planet, and unless we're living in dire poverty, which is another subject, then we have a choice as to what sort of impact we make.

For example, what do we buy? Ask ourselves it did as production harm the environment? Did it lead to cruelty to animals? Is it cheap because of unfair wages? If so, don't buy it. And then the companies and it's happening, will gradually realize that consumer pressure is changing the way they operate. And so it's for young people. This program we have for young people, Roots and Shoots. They sit down together in their group and they talk about the

things they care about. Some will care about the environment, some will care about the way we treat animals. Some will care about what's happening to people. And they choose a project, work out what they can do, roll up their sleeves, get out and take action. But they share what they do because it's all interconnected, you know. I learned that in the rainforest. And so when young people take action like that, they actually see that they're making

a difference. They see that, yes, they can make clean water in a stream that was polluted, and then they realize, well, in these other because we're in sixty five countries now, in these other countries, young people are cleaning up streams as well. It's not just us, Other people care too. We're part of a growing community of youth that wants to interact with nature in a new way because of all the harm that our previous generations have inflicted on

poor old nature. Can you give me an example, Jane, of a very human or special moment that you've had interacting with nature. I'm sure there's so many that you've had over the years. I'd love you to just remember one for us where nature felt truly alive to you, where you experience nature's abundance and connection to us and our interconnectedness. Because I think, like you said, you know, I was very fortunate. I lived as a month for three years in India, and we lived on a sustainable

farm that we managed and created and developed. And I got to see where food comes from and how water is cleaned, and I got to see how trees are planted and grown, and we made mud bricks, and I got to see how long it took to make one brick that would be dried by the sand, and we went through that process. And I went through that for three years in my twenties, from the age of around

twenty one to twenty four. And for me, seeing that firsthand, I started to realize I had no clue where my food came from, where my shelter came from, where my water or my clothes came from. Growing up in London, where I was born and raised. Yeah, and that those experiences made nature feel so close to me and so

much a part of me. Could you share one of your I'm sure you have so many, but if there's one that you could remember, whether it's with an animal, whether it's with a plant, whether it's in a rainforest, wherever it may be, Oh gosh, you know, you're right. I've got so many, so many, but one that I think is worth sharing was with a chimpanzee, my very very special chimpanzee, David Graybeard. When I got to Gombi and I was twenty six, nobody had studied while chimpanzee

is nobody. And the big problem I had they were they're very conservative and they take one look at this peculiar white ape and run away. I only had money for six months, so you know I would I be able to get their trust in time. So fortunately, David Graybeard, for some reason, was less afraid than the others. And by the way, it was David Graybeard who showed me

that chimpanzees can use and make tools. When he showed me fishing for termites with stems and twigs, which previously was thought to be, you know, only humans were able to use and make tools. But leave that aside. He'd just begun to allow me to follow him. And I was following him in the forest, and I lost him. I thought I had, because he went through a tangled thicket of thorny vegetation. Easy for him, but for me. You know, I got tangled up with my hair and

my sandals. Thought i'd lost it. Never might I'll see him another day. But when I got through the tangle, there he was sitting. He was looking back. I mean it honestly looked as though he was waiting for me. I can't imagine he was, but he might have been. So I sat near him, and on the ground was a ripe red palm nut, which chimps love at fruit of the oil nut palm. So I picked it up and held it out towards him on my hand, and he turned his face away, So I perhaps cheekily put

my hand a bit closer, and he turned round. He looked directly into my eyes. He reached out and he took that nut, but dropped it, bent very gently squeezed my fingers, and that is how chimpanzees reassured each other. So in that moment, there was a connection between us based on a language of gesture that must have predated human spoken language. He understood that my motive was good, but he really didn't want that art and I understood

that too. So it was a moment of real connection between me an absolutely wild animal who'd had no connection with people before. And I think it, I think it changed my life. That's incredible. Why thank you so much sharing that. That's that's probably one of my favorite ones. And it's such a it's such a beautiful example. I recently, just this weekend, I watched The Octopus Teacher on Netflix.

I'm not sure. Wonderful. Yeah, it was so wonderful, wasn't it. Yeah, me and my friends and my wife sat down and watched it together, and not only was the cinematography and videography stunning, it was just such a beautiful example of what you just shared that human can action with between a human and an octopus, It's such an incredible way of seeing that come to I'm sure you know we're going to see that more and more, as hopefully we

get more entwined with nature. I want to speak about this incredible conversation book, The Book of Hope, Survival Guide for Trying Times. I don't feel there could have been a more timely moment for this book to be coming into our lives. And I would encourage everyone who's listening and watching to go and order a copy of this book because it's the book we've been waiting for. It's the book we've been hoping for. I think a lot of us have been looking for navigation during this time.

We've been looking for direction and guidance and understanding at this time, and I really do believe that The Book of Hope, a Survival Guide for Trying Times, is the book that's going to help us do that. I wanted to ask you, Jane, when you look at the history of hope, if we look at the history of humans needing hope, you've lived through times when people would have said there is no hope. Yet there was hope that was found and it changed things again. Today we hear

that rhetoric there's no hope, everything's hopeless. Everything's tell us about finding hope. Historically, at difficult times and how hard it was, and then the same now today. Well I think, you know, I go back to the war again, growing up in the war, because there were a period when Britain stood alone against the might of Nazi Germany, and Britain was not prepared for war because Chamberlain had wanted to capitulate, and you know there was Churchill saying, no,

we have to fight these Nazis. We don't want to be overrun by this horrible rhetoric of Theirs. You know, it was basically Churchill. So there we were Britain, little Britain, and we were so unprepared. I'm living in the south of England. The sea is just there and it was a landing place that you know, Nazi troops were going to land quite near us. Do you know what our protection was a bit of scaffolding out in the sea and a bit of barbed wire. That was it, you know.

But Churchill was rousing the British people, saying we will not be overrun, we will never give in. We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them in the woods. I think he was heard to as thunderous applause came out. He was heard to turn aside to one of the people near him and say, and we'll fight them with the butt ends are broken bottles, because that's bloody well all we've got. Do you have that

great British sense of humor? So you know, okay, living through a time when it totally seemed hopeless, how could we survive? And then we our air force? And again Churchill saying, never in the history of mankind has so much been owed by so many to so few. Because these young men they went out and they got killed, They got killed, they got killed, but they went on volunteering.

And you know, when you grew up with this sort of thing going on around you, and the way that people in London during the Blitz when every night they were bombed. Every night people lost their homes and lost their lives. And my uncle was working in the big hospital. They're treating all these victims of the bombing. And yet the people there, they got together, they had the sense of humor and they managed to pull together and not give in. So what you couldn't have had a better

a better lesson for me in hope. And you know, in this book I talk about the reasons for hope. The energy of young people when they know the problem and you empower them to take action, and the resilience of nature. We destroy a place utterly, but give nature time, maybe some help, it will come back again. And then this extraordinary intellect that we have, we haven't used it wisely.

We haven't always been wise at all. We don't deserve the title of Homo sapiens the wise ape, because we've been destroying our only home, because there's been a disconnect I think between this clever brain and the human heart. I love the way we poetically put love and compassion into the human heart. I don't know why, but anyway, that's what we did. And then finally, this indomitable human spirit that won't give in and so often succeeds. How can you not have hope? Yeah, thank you so much.

I can't wait to dive into each of those. As we go through the interview, I wanted to ask you, Jane about you know, so many people have lost their hope during the pandemic, and the pandemic broke people down, it shattered their resilience. How do you think people will be able to bring back that hope that they lost in the pandemic? How do How do we do that? How we do it? I think, you know, one of the big problems is that the media gives so much

attention to everything negative. And yeah, they have to, we need to know. But if you think during the pandemic of the stories of courage and bravery and self sacrifice, people losing their lives to treat sick people, you know, this gives you such a feeling of how amazing humans actually are, and that in itself is enough to of people hope. But then when you come to all the people who've lost their jobs living in poverty, the only

way to give them hope is to help them. I mean, if you are living where every day you went out to work and you've got just enough money to feed yourself and your family, unfair wages meant you could never save so those people, it's very hard to see how they'll regain hope unless we help them. On the other hand, there are people in those situations who somehow manage to rise above it and just get this thing. I'm not

going to give in. I will find a way to make a living and will do something, even if it's something menial, just to get me through this, to enable me to feed my family and share those stories. It is possible. Not easy, but it is possible because of this indomitable human spirit. Absolutely. And how do you really define hope? And what would you say is the difference between hope and belief? I think that's a really important conversation to have because I think often we confuse that.

So how do you define hope and what's the difference between a hope and belief? Well, hope. You know, some people feel it's very passive. Well I'm okay, I hope it's going to be okay, and they don't do anything. To me, hope is about action. I hope that I can make a difference, but I won't make a difference unless I take action. That I think is to me what hope is all about. And the tragedy is that if we lose hope, then we sink into apathy. Because if you don't think your actions are going to make

a difference, even a small difference, why bother? Why do anything? Just give up, eat drink and be merry, but tomorrow we die if you're in a position to buy the food and the drink to be merry. But you know, so that to me, hope is all about taking action

and faith, well faith. You know, I got very very angry a little while ago with Richard Dawkins, who I don't know if you know his name, but he's a committed atheist and he actually spent a lot of money hiring advertisements on the London double decker red buses saying

if you believe in God, your stupid, or something like that. Now, if you think of somebody who's a refugee who's fled either climate change or war conflict, and sometimes they arrive and I'm saying now England, but it could be anywhere, and they've lost their family, they've lost everything, but they've got a faith, believe in God that God will put things right. And so people talk about blind faith, but blind faith can give you hope because you know you

believe in God, God's going to make things right. That gives you hope. God will make things right. But still you've got to do your part. And I think the Bible, I mean I grew up as a Christian, but it could be the Koran, it could be anything. But you know, the Bible is full of messages about about hope and taking action and not just sitting back and letting the world roll by you. That's a that's a beautiful description. It's a wonderful way of breaking down the words for us.

And I love how you said that hope is full of action and you know, making a change and trying to be a part of the solution. And you talk about hope as a survival trait, which I thought was really interesting in and I'm also starting to see you and I would love to get your thoughts on this. I also see hope as a habit. I see it as something we have to practice, as something we have

to develop. Is something that the more you think of it, the more you build it into your routine in life, the more real it becomes because it's something that has to be practiced and lived on a daily basis. It's not just an idea or something that happens mentally. What would you think about that if you think of hope as a habit as well as a survival trait, well,

I guess you could say it's a habit. But I mean the thing is once you once you start take I mean all these people who who become totally depressed, sometimes even suicidal because they look around at the problems of the world, and my goodness, it's terrible. I mean not You cannot not be depressed if you look around at the problems of the world. That's why you know the messages. Don't think globally, at locally. At locally. First

see that you can make a difference. And when you see that you make a difference, you want to do more. And so taking that first step, it gives you hope that your actions do make a difference, and then you want to do more. And as you do more, it's like a feedback loop and you inspire others to join you. And as you see others making a difference, that increases your hope. And so it's spirals like that, and that's what's happening with the young people in our Roots and

Shoots program. I think, yeah, I would love to have an experience with the Roots and Shoots program. It sounds so exciting and inspiring. I think it would be wonderful to get to be involved and get to be a part of it, to really see it firsthand. I think there's such a joy that comes from actually being involved and getting your AND's dirty. There's times in seeing it for yourself. So I'm wondering Jean. You know, obviously you have such an abundant optimism, you have such a great

strength in you and resilience from everything you've been. And I'm wondering, was there ever a time when someone or something and I loved what you said earlier day, someone made you angry? And I'm thinking, was there ever a time where something that happened in the world or someone or something in nature made you lose hope or being

close to losing hope? And I want to know how you got it back, because I feel like a lot of people are on that cusp of they're just about to lose hope and they just need to grab hold of it again. You know, I've experienced deeg depression, and you know, for example, I spent time in a small wooded area quite close to here and heard the birds. I don't know why it was there, but I was. And two years later it was yet another shopping mall. I was angry, but first of all, I was really depressed.

I was sad. I sat there and felt like crying, but then that sadness turned to anger. How dare they do that? Well? I can't save this place now, but there are other places like this that I can try to save or inspire people living there, encourage them to do what they can to save it before it's too late. So I don't know, it's the way I'm made. You know, I'm very obstinate and like one of these dolls, you know, these dolls with loaded bases and you knock them over

and they jump up. That's how I am like one of them. I don't know what you call them, but I'm like one of those dolls. I will not be pushed down by anyone. I will bounce up. But just the way I'm made. Yeah, I love that. I think that's beautiful and I think I do believe that's the only way we can learn to live. We need we all need to learn to be that way because it's you know, as we know, life's going to keep knocking us down and we have to get back up and

we need that resilience, we need that strength. So I love that. You know, the book mentions four components for hope and making it sustainable and it's goals, pathways, confidence, and support, and I wanted to hear about a few of them that you see and you know you said and the conversation you're having. The researchers call it the hope cycle. What kind of goals should we have at this time? What do you think? What goals do you feel of realistic but also ambitious enough for us to

have at this time. You can't be passionate about everything, but that's enough of us. That's one of the only benefit I couldn't see in the number of people on the planet was enough people to tackle all the different problems, you know, because nobody can tackle everything. So with our groups of roots and tuts, for example, you find every group for us, kids who are passionate about helping animals,

someone to help people, someone to help the environment. And so if you choose something you're really passionate about and you see that you can make a difference. You know, that leads to this whole feedback system of hope. So I don't quite know what else I can say about Now, that's a beautiful example. No, I love that. Thank you

so much for sharing that. Again. I think that's just a great reminder of recognizing that you don't have to change everything, and you can't change everything, but there maybe your passion is going to bring you towards a particular area of impact. Or a pain that you see is going to bring you to a particular are of impact. Often it's what inspires us and sometimes it's what hurts us that makes us want to take action. And so I think that's a beautiful answer, and I just wanted

to remind people of that. Sometimes as we were discussing, so many people will be thinking so overwhelmed. There's so many things that the world needs help with. There's you know, nature, there's animals, there's cancer, there's and so knowing that people can just start with what is deeply important to them, yes, that's the way to start. Because then that's why Roots and Choots is working so well, because the kids, they're passionate about what they do because they chose it. We

don't tell them what to do. And so Roots and Choots group will choose different projects, whether they're in the city or rural area, rich or poor, whether they're in Indian Pakistan, whether they're in Africa or Florida or New York. They're going to choose the projects that are important to them where they live. And so I think it's because it's a it's a not a top down but the bottom up program that it's spreading around the world. Yes, yes, truly,

truly making a difference. And the thing is that these three projects animals, people, environment, that every group must choose between them, they all share the result of their products, and therefore begin to understand how everything is interrelated. You know. I learned that in the rainforest, every species has a

role to play in this beautiful tapestry of life. And I see it as when one species disappears from an ecosystem, it's like pulling a thread from that beautiful tapestry, and as enough threads are pull that ecosystem, that tapestry will hang in tatters and the ecosystem will collapse. Oh that's such a great metaphor and analogy for us to visually. I could visualize that as you are describing it. And one of the things that I observed in nature that I love so much is that every part of nature

is always serving. So the trees are providing shade, they're providing fruits and flowers, the water is moving and providing, the sun is providing heat and warmth and light, and every aspect of nature is always in service to others. And it seems that the only part of nature that is not in service is often us as humans and people where we're trying to serve ourselves versus serve and give and provide and share. And you talk about this beautiful point about you know, the reasons for hope, and

one of them you give is the human intellect. And we've all heard that it's our minds that separates from animals. But in your book you mentioned that great apes can learn four hundred or more words of American sign language, workout complex problems on a computer, and like some animals you mentioned, I think, including I think it's pigs. I

love painting and drawing. You mentioned the octopus. Yes, exactly, exactly, And so if animals are smarter than most people give them credit for, what is it truly that sets us apart when you use the human intellect as a reason for hope, Well, the human intellect differs from that of all other animals chimpanzees, than everybody else to the links to which it's gone, like, there's no animal, no matter how intelligent, on the planet today, that could design a

rocket that goes up to Mars, launches a little robot that goes around taking photographs. That is out of the category, out of the league of animal intellect. I mean, the way we're talking now is an example of human intellect. There's intellect the zooms of the podcasts and all the things that we do. It's just amazing. And I believe that that was at least in part triggered by the fact that at some point in our evolution we developed this way of communicating as we are now with words.

So with words, you and I can send our message to people and teach them something they never thought of before. We can teach our children about things going on in other countries. Chimpanzees can't do that. Their children learn by observing, but we can use words, and we can bring people together to have discussions, to try and solve problems. People with different outlooks on different different jobs, different skills. So that's the difference. And this is why it's so bizarre

that we're destroying our only home. We don't want to live on Mars. We know that now, and I think it's a disconnect between this clever, clever brain and as I said before, the human heart, love and compassion, And honestly, I truly truly believe it's only when head and heart work in harmony that we can achieve our true human potential, which some people have. Yes, I think that I that

was so wonderfully shared. I I really believe that our intellect and our intention have been disconnected, and so the intellect is not being guided by or directed by intention. It's being free to do whatever it needs to creed to feel sense gratified, and to feel self you know, self obsession almost freedom to that point, and their love and compassion you're speaking about is such an intentionality with

how we use this intellect that we've been gifted with. Yeah, yeah, I mean it was Maha mc gandhi who said the planet can produce for human need, but not human freed. Yeah. You know, we need a new definition of success because at the moment, if you talk to most kids, what's a successful person, Oh, somebody who's making a lot of money, or maybe somebody who's got a lot of power. And that's the way we think about success. To me, success is about having enough that you can feed yourself and

your family. You can perhaps go for a nice holiday that you can enjoy spending time in nature and with your family and people just you know. They did an experiment where they followed different immigrant families who all arrived the same with a wife and a kid and nothing. And part of the group they managed to get jobs, and they managed to find somewhere to live, and then they upgraded it. They got a little house, they could send their kids to school. And there's this King of

Uturn's happiness index. And as this happened, whatever that index is went up. The next group, they in the same way, started to improve their lives. But when they got to that level where the first group stopped, they went on. They wanted more, they wanted more money, they wanted more power, more well, more houses, and they succeeded, but the happiness level dropped. And I love that experiment because they're true.

A lot of very wealthy people aren't happy people. Absolutely, yeah, And I think when I love that you shared that study. And I've also found that when someone's intention for more is so that they can do more service, whether it be financial, whether it be growth in any area of life, it becomes actually very beautiful. We see so many, so much incredible work happening with the world when people use

their platforms for a higher purpose. As you see, like, yeah, people who have achieved great things and wonderful things and they're using that power or that influence or that money to have a change in people's lives and for the environment as opposed to themselves only, as you rightly said.

And I think about that is something that's so needed as well, to encourage young people to say, hey, if you want to go and be successful, and you want to go and do this, do it, but do it in an intentional way, to use it as a way to serve. Do it with that in mind, that you don't want to harm the environment, and you want to

improve the lives for people and animals. And I think if we could train people to not shy away from success, but like you said, redefine success and use success for something greater than success itself, then that to me feels like a hopeful environment and world to live in. It's quite true, you know. When I'm giving lectures, I always say that we all need money to live. It goes wrong unless we live for money, unless, yes, we live for money in order to help make the world a

better place. And then I always make everybody laugh because I pause and I say, like, giving some money to the Jane Goodall Institute. That's brilliant. I love that that is so good. That is such a beautiful statement, though, could you repeat the full statement for us again because it was so perfect and I was taking it in that I want everyone else to hear it. I want

ever enough to hear it again. Okay, So I tell people that, you know, we all need money to live, and it tends to go wrong when we live for money unless we live for money in order to use that money to make the world better for animals, people environment, like giving some funds to the Jane Goodall Institute. I was holding back my laugh to Visnu was coming. I love that's that's brilliant. But it's such a it's such a profound statement, and it is such a wonderful way.

And I think that idea of engaging whatever gifts we have, whatever wonderful opportunities we've been given, to engage them back into the service. We had this beautiful practice Jane that I think, I think you'd appreciate from what you just said.

When we would in India, it's common to bathe in holy rivers, whether it's the Ganges, the Yamuna, the Cavary, many holy rivers and whenever we would as monks made in these rivers, the practice would be that we would first scoop out water into our hands as much as we could have, and then we would pour it back into the river. And the purpose of this exercise was to show us that whatever we were doing, we were just scooping from the source and giving back to the source.

And the idea that any gifts you have, anything that you hold in your life, you want to engage it back into the environment. So we take from the environment, but then we give it back. And the amount we take can ever be as much as the environment gives to us an offers to us. And it was it was just always a beautiful ritual that that made me remember that you're only here to serve. You're only a steward,

You're you're only a you're only a housekeeper. You know, you're not a It's it's not a it's not your home in that sense. It's it's your home, but it's yeah, it's not your you're not the owner. It's your home, but you're not the owner. That's right, And that's why, that's why you must feel so sad about the way some of these Holy rivers are being polluted. And that absolutely, absolutely, yeah, it's heartbreaking. Isn't it. It is. It's really painful to watch.

And you know, I've been trying in my own way, with the with the organizations I work with to try and be a part of that. But yeah, it's it's becoming very difficult. Like you said, though, we don't lose hope because we may not be able to impact this one place, but there's another place where that's happening. And I love that you said that. I think that's such a We often get so attached to who we help and how we help, and and I think real love and real compassion is I want to help anyone who

needs it, and everyone who needs I'm able to. I'm able to see that even though this is what I see as valuable, if I can't impact that, I can I can create some value over here. I think that's a beautiful reminder. In case you didn't know, we have just started at two in good Old Institute in India, which is registered as an Engino with roots and spreading all over India. Wow, you know, hundreds of young people wanting to help in this fight to restore rivers and

things like that. I just thought you might like to know that. Yeah, I am I love hearing that. I think on my next visit there as well, i'd love to experience that sounds sounds amazing. The second reason you give for hope now, and I love these reasons. I think they were so powerful is the resilience of nature, and one in particular, one story really stands out. And I'd love for you to shore with my community today

about the Survivor tree. If you were happy enough to share that, I think it would be wonderful for them to hear. I happened to be in New York when the suicide bombers flew into the Twin Towers, and it was terrible. It was terrible being there. You know, everything went quiet and you could only hear police cars and ambulance sirens, and it was, you know, this total devastation and that it was horrible. It was horrible. Well, it turned out that when they were clearing the rubble, it

was about two weeks after the towers fell. This young woman actually she saw the remains of a tree on a truck and I don't know how she persuaded the truck driver, but anyway, she said, but this tree isn't dead. Oh, he was going to put it on a dumpster and destroy it. So anyway, she managed to get the tree to a botanical garden and they nurtured and nurtured. All that was left was one big root and one trunk

with one branch. That's all that was left. But they nurtured it, nurtured it, nurtured it, planted it back on the site where the towers fell. And now it's a calorie pear, not a pear tree, but a calorie pear. And in the spring it's big, now has these beautiful blossoms. And so I was I had a group of my young roots and shoots people around on International Peace Day and the tree was shedding its leaves because it was autumn.

And so when I looked up into these branches, looked past this great black fissure, which is, you know, where the tree amazingly mended itself, and there was the nest of above but obviously have fledged and flown. And that was like the tree itself has survived the most horrendous attack and it's put out leaves and it's beautiful and it's nurtured another life form where the babies have fledged and flown out into the world. I just it was

so wonderful. Yeah, absolutely, what a wonderful story. I'm so glad you shared that with us. Thank you. And you know, to hear about such devastation, you know you would you could never imagine that something could recover from that, but it did with some nurturing, with some love, with some attention. And the third and fourth reason you share with us, which we've spoken about a lot today, and I would love for everyone to get the book to read more about one and two, but three and four as well.

Three is all about empowering young people. In four is about that human spirit. So anyone who's listening and watching right now and you're loving these stories and the examples, and you're being filled with hope. I really hope everyone who's listening and watching your body, your mind, your soul, your heart and being filled with hope. And I promise you, if you read this book, you will immerse yourself in hope.

And I think hope needs to be an immersion. It needs to be a absorption in hope for us to really feel its benefits. Just like this tree receives such care and attention, you need that care and attention, and we need to give that care and attention to ourselves.

In the last part of the book, you talk about becoming a messenger of hope, and I think often when we become messages of hope, people can say, oh, you know, stop being so positive and you know, you're just always trying to find the silver lining, and there could be a lot of skepticism and cynicism around hope, unfortunately, because we've created a world that amplifies negativity, as you said earlier,

with what we see on TV and the news. If someone's listening and they're like, Jane, I want to become a mess senger of hope. What's something that they could do today for themselves or practically, Jane, that you think will help them continue that desire to become a messenger an ambassador of hope. You know, the first thing is to really think in your mind, what do I really care about? Okay, I really care about the way stray dogs are treated some countries, stones are thrown at them.

I want to help. What can I do? And then you find that you can volunteer and a shelter, or you can adopt a little puppy or something like that, And that first step gives you a feeling of what it's like to be helpful because you've made a difference. It's going to be different for everybody, and all you need to be a messenger of hope is to feel hopeful and to be able to tell stories. Stories. It's no good talking in statistics and all that kind of

stuff because nobody remembers. But stories like the ones that you asked me to share, people, even if they get the details wrong, they remember the message. And so I think messengers of hope need to be storytellers. They need to have experienced the joy of doing something and seeing that you've made a difference, and the even greater joy of seeing that you've inspired others to get that same feeling by taking action and making a difference. Yes, yes, absolutely,

I love that answer, and I couldn't agree with you. More. Stories define us and they define how we feel, and they're the stories that resonate with our heart and statistics again, like you said, statistics talk to our head, but stories deal with our hearts. So, as you said, the head and heart alignment, I think that's a beautiful reminder for all of our messages of hope. Jane, you've been so generous and kind and wonderful with your time. I couldn't encourage people more to go and grab a copy of

the book. We'll have the link in all of the captions. You can order it. If today's conversation has touched you, I promise you the conversation in the book will truly, truly help you, and it will help you become a hopeful messenger, and help you with your children and make them hopeful messengers and people around you in the world. And we need more hope in the world. It's the

thing that we need most of right now. But Jane, we end every episode with a final five, which are a fast five where you have to answer every question in one word to one sentence maximum. So we're about to do that. But before we do that, I just thought of something. Actually, I was asked CBS is doing a primetime show called The Activist, and I was asked

to be a guest judged the other day. And the three areas they chose our education, healthcare, and the environment, and they're encouraging people to come up with ideas and they're going to be funding them. And I believe the final meeting is with Leonardo DiCaprio, who's going to be

really encouraging the ideas to move forward. I wanted to ask you when you think when you see all these things happening today in the mainstream, shows people such as Leonardo DiCaprio being so forward thinking about the environment, does that give you hope? How do you feel about those aspects outside where people are taking action? Yeah, it's great. I mean, of course it gives you hope because people

like Leonardo DiCaprio and to Lena Jolie, Dave Matthews. People listen to them, and they're people I probably couldn't reach. So you know, the fact that they're out there and inspiring people and giving them hope, of course it reinforces my own hope that we are getting there, that together we can make a difference, and together we will. Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Okay, we're going to move into the final five one word to one sentence maximum

for each of these. Jane, are you ready for your fast five? Well, I'm no good at this, but go on. You can end up making a fool of me. That's fine. I made a fool of not at all, Not at all. That is not my intention. Okay. So the first question is what is the best advice you've ever received. The best advice I've ever received was from my mother when she said, if you really want to do something, work hard, take advantage of opportunity, and don't give up. What is

the worst advice you've ever received. You can't make a difference, so don't bother. Great answer, Okay. Question number three, what's the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night? Try and get out of bed to face another day of podcasts and web ours and those things. The last thing I do watch some absolutely mindless and non intellectual something on TV or an audio book or something like that take my mind away from all the horror of the day. I love that.

Question number four, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in the last twelve months? Patience? Wonderful and fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be? The law that is shared by every single major religion? Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Beautiful. Thank you so much everyone in the Book of Hope. Janiro We are so grateful for your time and energy.

I can't wait to share this with millions of people in our community that listen every single week, and I can't wait for more people to read the Survival Guide for Trying Times, which is so needed right now. So thank you so much, and I hope this wasn't too much of a stressful podcast journey that you have to get away from that. I'm really really honored to have spoken to you, Jane, and I look forward to meeting you so thank you so much. Yep, well, I've had

a wonderful talk with you. It wasn't stressful at all. It was fun and it'spirational and I look forward to meeting you as well. Thank you so much.