My next guest is Adina Menzel. She has a new album called Drama Queen and a children's book called Proud Mouse out September twelfth. Make sure to watch and read.
My son is Mixed. I don't want my whiteness to be something that I know people say you're the mom. He's going to love you, but there's going to be things that I can't understand for him because I'm not in his skin. And as he's getting older, he's becoming more and more aware of the society that he lives in and the violence, the racism, and I just want to be someone he can come to, you know. The best selling author in the post.
The number one health and wellness.
Podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. I am so grateful for our community here at the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. And I know that you're always looking for new stories, new ideas, new things to bring into your life so that you can feel better, feel happy. I feel healthier and feel healed. And today I'm talking to a guest who has a really unique experience of life.
And that's what I love. I love learning about people who've come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, taken different parts. And I'm speaking to all of you about Idina Menzel, a powerhouse multi hyphenet, a singer, an actress in film and TV, a songwriter, a Broadway star, and a philanthropist. And I mean her accolades are absolutely unbelievable.
Adina rose to fame for her role as Maureen in the popular Broadway musical Rent, and their career took off when she won a Tony Award for her role as Alphabet, the Wicked Witch of the West in the musical Wicked. If you haven't seen it, it's phenomenal. I can't believe
you haven't seen it yet. Adina's voice can be heard as Elsa in Disney's Oscar winning Frozen, the second highest grossing animated film of all time, with more than one point two billion dollars in worldwide box office revenue, and right now she's out talking about her children's book Loud Mouse, which we'll be hearing about today as well. Please welcome to the show, Dinna Manzelle, and thank you for.
Doing this, Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it's so grateful to meet you and so happy to get to spend this time with you. I know you've had a long day. We're just talking about. You've been up since four am.
Yeah, and I'm on the LA time. So that's what that was weird because I couldn't get to bed, yeah, with my jet lag, so I'm running on empty. But I'm happy to be here.
I'm just coming as well three days ago, and so I know that feels like But I guess the question is that you've been up since four am, You've been doing so much work today. What drives you? What motivates you? What what keeps you going?
My son, my thirteen year old son Walker, I think that's the main driving force. I mean, obviously creativity and my you know, artistic soul, my desire to keep creating and finding new ways to express myself. But if I'm being completely honest, it's you know, it's how can I be a better mom? How what am I doing today to help my son? You know? My relationship with my husband.
I think it's because I'm I've turned fifty now, and the ambition starts to weigh a little bit when you when you have a little success too, you know, like start to feel okay, like I can afford to pay for his schooling, and I can pay my mortgage, and I'm doing wonderful things and working with terrific people, and
so I can relax a little bit. When I was younger, I was just pounding the pavement so hard, you know, and really I believed in myself, but I was just really working hard and playing gigs everywhere and trying to get noticed. And so at this age it starts to you know, you go, Okay, everything's everything's going to be okay, you know, and so you want to give a lot of energy to your relations, to your marriage, to your child.
And that's why this children's book is. I guess this sort of an organic step in the evolution of things, you know, because people always ask me to do one, you know, because I guess my trajectory of characters and this sort of alpha us and Elsa's and these amazing young women that have all this incredible power and our role models for kids, and it's all about, you know, embracing that power and harnessing it and not being afraid to send it out into the world. You know, there's
for some reason. There's the universe has thrown these things my way. I don't know if it's the chicken or the egg. Is it me, you know, choosing these somehow, even though they were jobs I needed and I had to do for them. So I think that there's in
the tradition of those characters. I felt that I wanted to write a children's book that was about really me having those very similar experiences when I was little, and really believing in myself at a young age, really recognizing that I had something special to offer, but also being hesitant to share it out of fear of being alienated, being disliked, feeling like I was calling too much attention to myself. How much space can we take up in
the world, what's allowed? You know, especially as women, I think we're always sort of second guessing ourselves. So that's what the book's about. But that's what I do with as a grown up too. Every day. I'm still second guessing when I walk in a room, how much space I can take up, how big my voice is literally and metaphorically.
Well, and how do you think your view has changed of what you view as important from that time when you were like grinding and hustling and busy, working hard to now having a bit more I guess structure and peace and a bit of arrival feeling, if that makes sense.
The desperation isn't there, you know, it doesn't mean that I'm not still dreaming and there's not things that I There are still things I want. There's a lot of things that I find still elusive to me. We could talk about that. But so I still have ambition, but the fear of literally not being able to pay my rent or not making good on my commitment to myself as a young girl, of working hard to have my
dream come true. My dreams have come true. I perform on a stage, I perform in all these incredible venues for thousands of people and Disney Princess Queen for God's sakes, you know. So, But you know, the more you get, the more you want, and you see things differently through different a different lens when you become a mom.
Yeah, it was two things you hit there which I read about you when I I was looking for this interview. You said, do you have many dreams? But then one of the dreams I've heard you've had is your teeth falling out right. I know that's a different time, different type of dreams. That's not the kind of dream that Yeah, yeah, that's my night. You Have you ever looked into all the meetings behind?
Yeah, it's all about anxiety.
Have you ever found a meaning that sits well with you, that gives you some comfort in life?
No, not that dream. It's always such anxiety. And that's what I've read about it. And I also usually the teeth come out and you can hear the sound of them slinking against Yeah, I have that one. And I have one that I never actually graduated college and I'm too credit short. I have it so much that I still wake up with a feeling of like, why do I feel unseubtled? Oh you think you didn't. Let's a wait, No, I was there, I got my diploma.
Yeah, I get the dream of like I have another exam again. I think that's the one that sets me up. I'm like, no, I don't want to do another exam. God, enough exams in my life. But no, that that that's interesting. And yeah, that lack of control, I think that's what I've seen it as well, Like when you're losing your teeth in a dream, it's like feeling like the anxiety and losing control.
And then then I have cracked a tooth and a bagel close like my nightmares coming true, you know whatever, yeah, oh my gosh, yeah.
Yeahs and hearing the teeth that sounds sounds make me very like skirmish, I feel like sounds tough. And then also with working hard, I mean before this, you used to well, not before this, a long time ago, you used to perform at the mitzpahs and weddings. Yeah, which which one did you prefer? Was there a better one?
Well? I went through different phases. When I was fifteen years old, my parents parents divorced, and I wanted to get a job to kind of help out that, you know, dad was supporting two households. And my mom started dating this guy who was really sweet and saw talent in me. And he knew some guy that had a wedding band out in Long Island, and he said, you should auditionize.
I don't know en f songs, you know. And we lied about my age because we didn't want them to worry that I was still kid, so we said I was eighteen, like that's so old. And I started learning a bunch of songs. I put on kind of a slutty dress and I went in and I sang what I sing back, I'm dating myself, but I sang Evergreen like a Barber Streisen sung, and I sang We're walking on sunshine. Oh, I remember I saying a flash dance song. Anyway, and I got the job and I started working all
the time, weddings, permits, visit, it didn't matter. They all can be bad because nobody's listening. They can be really wonderful, especially for a young girl becoming trying to figure out my identity as a vocalist, having to learn so many kinds of genres of music, you know, like motown, pop, rock, jazz. So I really that was kind of my education of music. And I'm working. There's a lot of incredible musicians that do it as a side gig just to make extra money.
So the good thing about people not listening is you can try a lot of it. And one of my favorite times would be when they say, like ladies and gentlemen, please take your seat, your salad is being served, and then the band would take a break except for me and like the keyboard player, and then we'd sing, you know,
a Billie Holiday Tune or Eli Fitzgerald. And at a young age, I learned what melody is and I would listen to them on the car ride to the gig, and then I'd learned what I was contributing to it, how to improvise, and where were my instincts, my impulses as a singer. And so I actually still identify with I still see myself as that girl, the chick gig singer,
a wedding singer. And it's been so much longer that I've not been that than I was, but I still just feel like that's who I am when I'm on stage. I could be at Madison Square Garden. I'm still with my band. I want a jam. I'm okay with spontaneity. You walk on. I was fifteen years old, and they call it tune. You have to call it in the right key. You have to know the lyrics. If you
don't know the lyrics, you tape. Now they have iPads, but I would pull out a little Rolodex cheat sheets and I'd tape them to the mic and I'd sing the songs. Like I said, nobody's paying attention to the band, so they don't see but I still identify as that person, and no matter what when I go to a wet someone else's wedding or burmits, or when I get paid to like a lot of money to be a guest or somebody's and sing a couple. So wow, and I'm
really taking back. So I'm like, I used to make a hundred bucks, you know, for the night to sing, and then I'm up there and I still feel like that that unknown girl just trying to do a great job and get the song done.
That's amazing. Yeah, that's incredible. What are the next steps? Like when you when you hear about that experience that you're in and I am doing a bit of biography chatting because I do find it fascinating, Like, you know, you look at the stage you're on today and you look back there and you're like, wow, that's that's a long long way. And I think it's easy externally to be like, oh yeah, there was these line of great things that happened and it took off, But like what's
the next step from that? Like happen like the pretty much immediately like after you're doing that and guessing is that building your confidence? Is it just allowing you to pay for a few things on the side, like what is that doing for you?
To be a working singer? To make a living as a singer, especially at that age, was a source of deep pride ye me. Then as I kept getting rejected at auditions, I was writing my own music. I was trying to get a record deal. Nothing was happening. Now I'm doing it six seven years. Now, I'm getting a little bit annoyed.
You were seeing a weddings and but mins was for like six seven.
Yeah. It go in and out depending. When I was in college, I went to NYU, and certain semesters it was rough, but then other semesters I could pick up gigs and so then I would be a little bit more I'd like to say disgruntled. And I'd stand and I think I'm doing this when I'm thirty, you know, I'm quitting the business. And I get in trouble the band. The band leader would say, you have an attitude today, and I'd be thinking, because I just I'm going to
be something one day. You know, I'm going to get out of here, so I forget where your question, Well, no, my question is that I do What was the next thing like that, is that that's do you're doing exactly what it's asking, like that idea that you're going to auditions, What were you auditioning for?
Like what was well important to you at that?
Yeah. So when I was a little girl, my parents took me and I grew up in Long Island, they take me into the city to see Broadway shows. I
wanted to be on Broadway. Then when I started doing all these weddings and seeing all these kinds of music, I started writing my own music, and my taste evolved with the kind of music that I wanted to sing, and so then I wanted my own record deal and wanted to make albums, and so I would now also put rock bands together, and I'd go play at CBGB's and at the Bitter End in the village, and so
that started to be the thing that I wanted. And then I finally, at finally, at twenty five, I got the original cast of Rent, which was the big rock musical of the time, but it was theater, but it was rock. And so that started me on this sort of path of kind of straddling both worlds always, which back then in the nineties it was not it was frowned upon to try to go from theater to legitimate rock pop kind of career. Now everyone can do everything,
but back then you didn't. If you're a movie star, you didn't do TV. And if you were a theater person, you weren't going to be people wouldn't believe you as a as a rock star. But here I was kind of in both, and so I did that dance for a long time. And now you get to the point where you've done so many different things and so many I put out so many kinds of albums and that I can get on stage and I don't care that I'm one particular style because now my body of work
is who I am. But it's taken me all that time to feel like I have a story and identity, because back then it was like, look, who are you? What kind of singer are you? What are you going to be? What do you represent? And I said, well, I can do and I can do motown, and I can do Madonna and when you use it and rock and roll, and so my versatility was my curse.
Wow, and what were you doing by age thirty? Because you said, when I get to if I'm doing this by thirty, I'm going to quit what were you actually doing.
When I was in a workshop of Wicked. Okay, so I was hired to develop Wicked, which was a five year process, and ever after every workshop of that, I always thought they were going to replace me with someone more famous or something, and so I always thought I was going to get fired. So the fact that I actually got to the Gershwin Theater when I was I don't know, thirty two, I was like, who, you know? You always think you're going to get fired in this business.
So when they bring you into develop and part of my ignorance, yes, so they're bringing you into develops and what is that? What does that actually mean? Does that mean you might make it into the show or you're in the behind the scenes.
They say they're looking for their amuses, you know, and so they'd like to find the people that they are writing for, because the composers are writing and for your voice, and which is like the greatest honor that was Rent was like that as well, and most of the things I do because their original musicals they go through these
long developmental processes, which I love. I love standing on a piano and an incredibly talented composer like Steven Schwartz or Tom kitt or Jonathan Larson, and they say, figure out where my voice sits and how they want to write something so that I can soar, you know, and the character can soar. Sometimes that guests confused, but or it's one and the same.
I guess.
But I love that process so much. And what it is is you go in a room, usually in like a regular rehearsal room, and sometimes they only have the first act. Sometimes they have the whole thing, but then they so you do like a little reading of it for a bunch of people, investors, and then everyone gives notes. And then six months later they've scrapped a bunch of things. Maybe they took a song out of Act two and put it in F one, and now that offsets the
whole balance. And then and this part sucks, but this part's really working, you know, and they keep having to and you just go with the flow. And I find it fascinating that whole process.
Yeah, No, it's interesting hearing about it as a fan of Broadway. I always have been in the West End in London where I grew up, and then Broadway here. It's interesting knowing how it works because I think you take for granted that some of these things, the amount of time they take in development before we even see them.
It's funny. I did Wicket at the West End for six months a year and a half after I left it here in New York. I always wanted to open a show on the West End. To me, that was the most prestigious thing to do, and I had one of the greatest times of my life. I had two Australians starring with me, who taught me how to party and do hos a week, which I think I only learned that because they like to take credit for that, but I also think it's because I had already wanted Tony.
I knew I wasn't going to get fired. I knew how to pace myself hos a week. The pressure was off me and so I could go to the pub after. But you know, when when you're in the beginnings of a show, you're just you know, you're you're a monk, yes, and you don't do anything and you go home and you watch movies and you don't drink alcohol and you know so, and that can be kind of lonely.
Yeah, those schedules seem just insane. I was with a friend recently, they're piloting a show in San Diego at the Old Globe Theater to try and take it into Broadway, and so I was watching her and she was telling me about her schedule, and then we just I just went and saw the music Man this Sunday and like watching you do that, and I was it was just it's fascinating to me to think just what a tough schedule that is. It's exhaust yeah, it's And how do
you like? What were your coping mechanisms the first time round? Like not when you'd won the tourny.
First time with friends? I I lost my boy well, I started I was abusing my voice. I didn't I would. I took boys lesson in my whole life, but I stop going to my teacher at one point, and I just had never even though I was singing all those gigs at the weddings, I had never done eight shows a week, and so I had to look go back to a teacher and address all the different problem spots in the show for myself. And then I ended up being stronger than ever and then it's never happened to
me again. But back then, you know, the I don't know, if you're familiar with Jonathan Larson, who wrote he was a composer of I don't, but I know. He passed away early on in our process, and it was a very emotional time for all of us, and we all felt so committed to never missing a show because we just felt like our mission was to show up and communicate his message, you know. So for six months, not
one of us missed a show. I was actually the first one because the doctor ordered me to have voice for us, and I've never had a cast do that ever. I realized that was very rare that people wouldn't miss a show for six months. That's so that was a commitment and that set a precedent. I think for me, it's also because you know, have an ego and I don't want my understandy to go on all the time.
But but yeah, and the more people coming to see a show with your name on the marquee, the more pressure you feel to be there.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, that's.
A lot of pressure. But I learned, you learn to pace yourself and you learn. What I like to say is I have an A, B, and a C show. So the A show is the one that has lots of acrobatic vocals and what I want to sing if I could all the time. The B and the C are melodies that are maybe not as hard, but people don't even notice itogize, and so it's a psychological thing for me that I don't feel like I'm failing if
I don't get the A show. I just say I have a cold to go out there and do a really great B show today, and then I and then the pressure's off and I end up having a great show. So there's a lot of it's mental, you know, and just.
That's a great technique. I love that. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before, because I think people think that you only have two choices. You're off. Yeah, you're on or off, and that's actually not true. I love the ABC grading for anything in life because I don't think we're ever at our a game every single day. It's not possible.
Yeah, And how many times do you realize you think you had the worst show, interview, whatever, and then someone comes and they had no idea what you're talking all that dialogue in your head, that's sabotaging.
Yeah. I went to public speaking drama schools since I was eleven years old, and so I've been in public speaking is now the majority of my life, and so there is I know exactly when I think I messed the lineup or didn't quite get that message across right, and I'll be over analyzing it. I used to do a lot more earlier days, but then you realize no one even noticed any percentage of that. But I love your ABC grading.
Yeah, I wish I could do that with life.
Yeah, well, I think it's a good tool for life. I'm hoping that.
Mom, I'm not going to get it all right, you know today, and my son's gonna be angry with me. But that's okay. But I'm really hard on myself about that stuff. I'm hard on myself in general. I'd like to so give myself a break.
Yeah yeah, yeah, how did you How do you think you were able to give yourself a break on stage? Because that's obviously in one sense. I mean, I'm sure and I'd love to hear this as from a mother's perspective, but and I don't want to assume either way. But I'm guessing you may say that actually being a mother to one child is actually more pressure than performing in front of thousands of people.
And when I became a mother, I found perspective. Obviously, I became less self absorbed. I realized that my son has a fever tonight. I want to snuggle with him, take care of him. I don't want to worry that. I don't care if I get sick. Yeah, I got a big show tomorrow. What happens if I get throat or something, Well, it's too bad. I'm not going to sleep in the other room. That's just not going to be I just have to be with them. So then I'd wake up the next day, didn't get a lot
of sleep worrying about my kid. I'm on stage. What can I do? I'm doing the best I can. I'd have the best shows, yeah, you know, because I just, you know, lower the expectations of myself and for myself. And that's really it changed my life in a lot of ways. When you have something that you care about way more.
Yeah, so what do you think it's going to take? I love what you said there, and I think everyone can relate to that. I think anyone is listening right now. If you're a mother, you definitely feel if you're not a mother, you'll feel it like the idea of I just need to be a bit easier on myself, Like I think most people are very self critical, h most people who even come across as confident or even arrogant or often insecure and dealing with something internally.
So I'm not an expert and no, not an expert.
I'm just intrigued as to how you think you get to like what well.
And I also I'm not a shamed to say my public assisians probably don't say that, but I take you know, prozac, and I have help, and I yeah, because there are some days where I just I'm you know, people expect me to let it go and I can't, you know. So I'm doing the best that I can. But being in the moment, being present, you know, it's just the hardest thing to do. It's like what we aspire to
do as artists, actors, singers to you know. It's it's so weird because the greatest moments I have when I'm performing are usually moments I can't even remember because they I transcend it in some way, you know, but trying. But that's not being present then, you know, and that you know, you can meditate, you can do all these things, but it's trying to achieve just one moment where I felt like I'm here in my body, understanding this without
judging myself, without criticized. And so I don't I don't have the answers. I just I give myself things to try to stay in the moment, you know, whether it's very clinical, just think about the lyrics, think about breathing, think about getting Walker to school tomorrow, or focusing on the person in front of me and trying to change them in the scene or the song. You know. But sometimes it's just it's really hard. I can't get out of there. In other days I can.
Yeah, But I think that ABC grading is you've already You've already come up with the perfect But it's what you said. It's like, that's that is the way we all need to think. How you started thinking about the stage, you think about our life network. I think it's a great it's a great method.
And I also have an incredible husband who was an actor. His life changed and he became he's a clinical director of uh An impatient facility in California has two houses recovery, alcohol and drug recovery and also mental illness and so he thinks I'm just like a piece of cake all the time, which is really nice to come home and think He's like, what that mood is fine, that's nothing, you know. So that's given me some perspective too. He just thinks all my neuroses is like normal and he
can handle he can handle it. I'm not too much. I'm not too much for him.
That's beautiful. That's a really special Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean yeah, that's that's a beautiful thing to have in your life. Yeah, And I think it's I think that's true for pretty much. I often think with relationships and with my wife, I I if I sat there, I could easily reel off reasons why I think she's annoying or frustrating or whatever. Maybe, like that's easy. I think anyone could do that if they've been longer long
enough with someone. But if I stop to think about the things that are special about her and unique about her, and the thing that she does that no one else could do, all of a sudden, it's like all those other things seem so insignificant and irrelevant, And I think it's so easy to amplify those small, irrelevant.
And my life is too short. I'm gonna get he's gonna I mean, he gets on my nerves so much when we travel because I'm traveling all the time. I know how to wear my I don't wear shoes with laces. I get through the security, I know how to do it. If something changes, I can go get another flight. I'm moving and grooving. He walks too slow. He doesn't have that aggressive traveling attitude. And I'm like, oh, and then I realize, why am I you know, he's sweet? Why
is this getting on my nerves that life's too short? Yeah, he's when it comes down to it, he's an incredible father and my son, and he's there for me whenever I need him, and he really sees me, sees my soul, and so so those little things are so silly.
Yeah. Yeah, And I feel like we all pair up with someone who's exactly the other way. Like I'm probably more like you in that sense as you describe that, just like you know, I'm like, I want to get to the airport three hours early and figure everything out, and like I don't like rushing. I don't like being late. And my wife's like, you know, just like she's having to run to the the what do you call it, the terminal? Like run to the yeah, the gate, sorry,
the gate, Yeah, run to the gate. And I'm like, I don't want to live like this, And she loves the pressure and whatever it may be. So, but I feel like we always pair up with people like that. But with your dreams earlier you said that, she's like, you know, dreams for the future. Like, what are the dreams now, Like, how have your dream shifted? You changed, or what's left? You said elusive? Some of the dreams are still elusive. You said that's the word.
Well, now talking to you, they seem so trivial. Well, professionally, there's things. I want to be a better performer, a better artist. I want to work with people that I've always looked up to. I want to work with some more people like that that teach me stuff. I want to create more original music. But my son is mixed. He's uh, he identifies as black, and I see him
as a black thirteen year old boy, little man. That's kind of where a lot of my focus is, I think lately, is I don't want my whiteness to be something that I know people say, you're the mom he's going to love you, but he's super smart and intuitive, and there's going to be things that I can't understand for him because I'm not in his skin. And I find myself preoccupied with that a lot, like how can I be so close to him, be the one that
he can come to for everything? If I can't totally understand all that because I just haven't lived it, How can I educate myself? How can I be better in that way? And as he's getting older, he's becoming more and more aware of the society that he lives in and the chaotic world he lives in, the violence, the racism, and I just want to be someone he can come to,
you know. So I'm probably overthinking a lot of that, but that's a lot where my energy goes to, just how can I really be better in that way for him?
Yeah? Yeah, I mean I think my parents felt that way when I was a kid, for different reasons completely, but I was mine was probably not as smart or as intuitive as your son sounds, but I was highly rebellious and I was getting involved in all the wrong places and circles, and my parents didn't raise me that way, and they, you know, they did only thing everything right and they were loving.
And why were you pushing back?
I think I was. I think I've always been like a thrill seeker, Like I've always deeply wanted a purpose. I didn't know that word at that at thirteen, Like I just thought thrill meant excitement, and almost like doing well in school and getting good grades like didn't feel like enough. I was like, that can't be the goal of life, to do well at school, Like, that can't be it.
You got to live.
There has to be yeah, like what does it mean to live? Right? What does it mean? And And I feel like it's really interesting because that age at least, and whenever I'm working with someone or whenever I hear about that, I always feel like that's the age when kids kind of like start going off in their own journeys,
in their own directions. And one thing that my dad did that I think was a game changer because I realized that at that point, no matter what my parents said, I wasn't going to listen to it, no matter what they said. And I think a lot of parent of
your job, Yeah, yeah, and yeah, exactly right. And I think every child, everyone who's been a child, everyone has that experience of yeah, I didn't listen to my parents when I was thirteen, and then I think every parent has that experience of my kids don't listen to me from like thirteen to twenty one maybe, and then my dad started giving me books of people's lives, of people that he thought I'd be inspired by based on my ambitions,
my rebellion. But at that time it started to be people like Malcolm Max and Martin Luther King, and then later on I read Einstein, and then I was also reading people like that that I was interested in as a fifteen year old kid, like David Beckham and so I was into soccer or doing the Johnson because he was in WWE, and so I was reading Malcolm X
on one side and David Beckham on the other. But it was really fascinating to me because it was almost like those people could talk to me at that time in a way that my parents never could, because they had lived experiences or things that for some reason, you know, connected with me and resonated with me in a way that even if my parents said the same things, it would never have connected. And I wonder, hence you writing
a children's book, which is where my direction's going. It's like, I'm fascinated by who the voice is your son needs to hear right now at this time in his life.
Yeah, I it's no.
I don't think it ever is your parents, not because our parents are wrong. Like there's that famous quote. I don't know who said it, but it's the day you realize your parents were right. Your kids are telling you that you're wrong exactly, and you know, it's one of those moments like now I'm so grateful to my parents and I can see everything. I'm thirty five and I'm like, okay, yeah, I value everything my parents did and they tried their best.
But in those times, I find like finding the voices of other people that feel like your voice to you, that he could hear it from someone else feels like, you know, it feels like I'm wondering this children's book. Was that a way of communicating to like, what was the Yeah, what was the purpose behind it?
I want him to hear that message. My son's pretty confident. So I think the book comes from my interaction with so many young people through all the projects that I've been a part of, and these multi generational projects, you know, of really seeing lots of young people inhibit themselves on scorn their unique qualities, and I relate to that because that's how I was. My son's pretty sure of himself.
So hopefully that's good. I mean, because I think we all as parents project, you know, all the stuff that I need to work on and myself. When you have a kid that comes like glaring back at you, you know, he's okay with the spotlight, you know. So I don't know if this book is necessarily written for him to help him, because he teaches me. I you know, I am, he said, he said, Mom, when I get my braces off and I and I go through puberty, this is going to be no stocking. He means that with the
girls everything. So it's like I just need to take a lesson from my son, you know. So I think the book comes from I wrote it with my sister, first of all, who I'm very close to, Kara, and and she's a teacher, an elementary school teacher, a writer, and also specialize in literacy at school. So I wanted to write it with her because she's a pro, and she understood me better than anyone else in the world understands me. She's the closest person to me. She's younger,
but she's the wiser, she's the older soul. And it was the two of us writing lists together because we experienced it as sisters. I was always loud and singing and taking up all this space, and she was always am I supposed to know what I want to do at the age of seven, you know, I don't know what I want to do. And so we've been really exploring all of those that's so old issues, I think.
So that's more for those kids that are just a little bit hesitant to kind of allow people to see them, you know, and allow themselves to be vulnerable and take a risk.
Yeah, that's that's fascinating. Yeah. I have a younger sister and we became we're still extremely close. She's like my best friend. She knows everything about me, and I know everything about her, and she's I almost treat it like a little child. She's only five years younger than me. To me, that's I remember holding her when I was five years old and she was this tiny, little bay.
Yeah.
It's one of those, like, you know, very special memories of kind of seeing her grow up and feeling old even though I was old. But it's interesting, like I think with siblings, it's it's fascinating to hear that that difference also of being okay with one being loud and one being silent, and noticing how neither of those strengths or weaknesses. Although I think it's often imprinted that someone is loud is more confident and.
Is more right, and that's totally a contradiction, at least in me. I mean, if you saw me at home, I'm actually kind of quiet, and people that meet me, they say, oh, you're actually really soft spoken, and so the big the girl with the big voice and singing to the rafters is definitely part of me. But I think we all have these different sides. And then my sister, who is very soft spoken. She's the one that when I went to watch her teach, she was a TA back in Boulder at See You, and she didn't know
what she wanted to do. And I was like some neuroscience classes and she was a TA and I sat in the back and watched her and she was unbelievable,
so charismatic, so on her voice, so engaging. The students loved her, and I said, this is your thing, Like you got to teach, you know, so our voice emerges in many different ways, and I think it's a little bit a misconception that someone like me, who knows how to produce loud sounds and hit the back row, is necessarily comfortable in her own voice in my own life, because especially given that mantle to always sing, let it go to kids or defy gravity, it's like, oh, you know,
I'm not always that example. I mean, I have those days where I can't get out of bed myself and I have to find my voice as well. And it's so I hate for people to think that there's this perception of me that I'm fearless because I'm not.
Yeah, of course, And it sounds like this book is also of finding your voice, because yeah, you're playing so many other voices.
Yes, well yeah, I mean it's it's autobiographical and a too Little Mouse, too little mice away, But I love that you chose a mouse to really yeah, because the mouse feels is so small. But when she sings, she's
the joy and the sound of her voice. When she decides to share it with the class instead of just keeping it to herself at home, she ends up becoming a huge, huge, huge mouth and now everybody can see her and hear her, and that invites a lot of scrutiny, a lot of accolades, but a lot of different things, you know, And that's I think that's what happens with all of us when we allow ourselves to be seen.
I'm always finding I'm always intrigued by people who play lots of voices. And as you said, like, I think everyone's always searching for their voice in life because they forget that their early voice was so informed by their parents, and then their later voice was so informed by friends, and then our voice is just always a mix of other people's noise. And then I wonder for you, do you ever feel like you've rubbed off on the voices
of your characters? Your characters' voices rub off on you, Like I'm always fascinated by people who play people for a living, Like how that.
That's what I was saying before checking the egg. How much am I bringing to something that then the writers are inspired by what I'm bringing? And how much is the part sort of finding me?
Which characters do you think? Which characters do you think rubbed off the most on you? In a.
Each one was like a gift at the time, you know, like the Rent stuff was really it was a celebration that character was unafraid, sexy, money, just an excuse for me to really be all those things. And then when Wicked came along, I was definitely more insecure and needing to sort of allow myself to not be afraid of my own anger and my larger than life qualities, you know, So that one was really art imitating life. You know, so different things.
I don't know, that's a beautiful Yeah, No, there's there's wonderful. It's just so's it's just so much. Yeah, it's so much more when you're playing someone deeply, it's so much more deeper than just a character right.
Now, and then you live with that how many shows a year?
Yeah, that's well, that's even more than a movie, right, Like even more than a TV show a movie. It's like this character is.
Yeah, and I've had two instances now with Rent the movie. We did it ten years after we left. I left the show and then had this sequel to Enchanted, Disenchanted coming out now, and that's fifteen years later. And it's kind of fun to revisit a character years later because it's just you see how like life is informed you're who you are and how you approach the character. Now it's really I find it really fascinating to go back and see that if I threw caution to the wind
a lot. I didn't have as much process when I was younger, just kind of like was raw and in the moment and spontaneous and in the moment. But the older I've been getting, the less in the moment I am because the more you're aware of how far you can fall, you know, and you get in your head.
So I don't know, Yeah, what's something that you feel you used to value that you don't value anymore, Something that was important to you that's become less and less important.
Hmm. I was going to say being liked, but having people care about what people think, But I think I still care about what people think.
Yeah, when I was asked, I was asked this question, and that's where I started to involve in my interviews. And it was probably one of the only questions that made me stop and think, like you had to, you know, most questions you're just talking. And then my answer to it in the moment, without thinking about it, in like seven seconds of thinking about it was being understood. I think I realized that ninety nine percent of the world would never be able to understand anyone fully. I don't
think it's actually possible. And I think the pressure we put on ourselves to try to understand someone fully rushes the process of understanding them half And so like that feeling of oh, I understand you, Like even we just want to be able to say that, and we want to be able to say that so quickly.
I'm saying about my son, Yeah, I will never yeah, be able to be all those things to him exactly. Yeah, live in a white woman's body and my background and where I've come from, and just because he came from my womb, I think the carte blanche to understand his emotion, you know. So that's very frustrating, Yeah, and I need to just accept that.
Yeah, and accepting it just Yeah. I think for me, it was like I realized that even if someone does understand you, they won't understand you in the way you want them to understand you, right, even in wanting to be understood, like you're talking about trying to understand someone else, but even I think all of us crave to be understood. When we say.
Something we're really seeing, like someone really gets me exactly.
And I found even the people that really get you don't really they don't they get me.
They do.
My closest friends really get me. But even then, there's a part of you that only you get and no one will ever know. And that's and being at peace with that has been very good for me. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be.
It would just be to mind your own business, stop worrying about what other people are doing, and live your own life.
That's a great one. I love that it didn't Mazelle. Everyone, if you have been listening or watching, thank you so much for tuning in. Make sure you share what you learned, what you took away, any reflections, any questions that you've had tig us both on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter, all the platforms that you know that we're on right now. And of course, the book loud Mouse is available. We're going to put the link in the show notes so you can order it as well. You can read along.
I know I'm going to be ordering a ton of copies for my nieces and nephews.
Yeah, and there's a refrain in it, so there's a song I wrote that I love that that goes along with that, and you don't have to sing it.
Like I definitely will not sing it.
Just start.
I never don't see it, but I'll be ordering them, ordering the book for my nieces and nephews to share it with them as well. I know that it's probably one of my favorite things to do is to sit down and read it to your child. And I don't have two kids on my own yet, but when I do it with nieces and nephews or you know, my godsaid, it's like one of the most fun, fun bonding experiences. I look forward to that. Yeah, thank you, thank you.
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.
My therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes. It was already tough for me to love my body. But after the C section scarf with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three, when I did it, I was like, you know what her thighs are cute,