I want to wake up more happy and depressed. I want to enjoy life. I'm not the final form of myself. I don't know what that's going to be. He's one of the most influential voices in morning radio. Yes the world most Dangerous Morning Shot to Breakfast Club. Charlemagne's like, gosh, I had no idea who I was. There was this character that have been created named Charlamagne. I'm like, I don't know who this person is. At some point I remember saying to myself, well, what's wrong meedd?
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Jay Sheet, Jay shedny Y everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. I'm so grateful that you're lending me your eyes and your ears for this time, investing in your growth. And today's guest is someone who I'm so grateful to because he came on the show back five years ago when we were just starting out. The platform was not established, and I'd reached out to him and I said, hey, I'd love to interview you. He came on as one
of our earliest guests, did me a massive favor. Over the last few years, I've been on his incredible show, The Breakfast Club so many times now. Some of my favorite conversations brings out a different side of me. I get to have an honest, vulnerable, truthful, reflective conversation. And he's a New York Times bestseller and his new book is out right now. It's called Get Honest or Die Lying. Why small talk sucks. I'm talking about the One, the Only, Charlemagne,
the God Charlemagne. It is so great to have you back on Purpose and honestly, man, the friendship and the genuine connection that we've built over the last few years has been a real honor for me. And as I said, I'm very grateful to you because you believed in me when I was just starting out and it really meant a lot to me and still does today.
Man, thank you for that. I received that.
And to see you grow into you know, your purpose, you know, and see you have this massive platform has been amazing to watch.
So thank you.
I'm happy to be here, happy to be here with one of my favorite people and on one of my favorite podcasts.
Thank you man.
Thank you.
Well, let's dat straight into it, because you put this book out and I think it's really true to the times that we live in. I think we're living in times that are defined by quarrel, defined by hypocrisy, defined by lack of self awareness, defined by gossip. And here's a book talking about all of that. And I wanted to start off simply by asking you, why have you built up such an animosity towards small talk? Where does that come from?
Well?
Number one, I hate small talk, you know, just on the literal level. Right when somebody sees you and they try to, you know, make conversation and they're not really talking about anything, and it's just like, you know, you and this person are in this unique moment in time where y'all get to share space and nobody is saying anything that is annoying to me, And it's annoying to the point where I'm like, I would rather just tell the person like, Oh, we don't have to do this.
We can be on our phones, we can be reading the book, we can sit here in silence, like you don't have to try, you know, to make conversation.
But then on a.
More macro level, I feel like we're having too much small talk. You know, we're having too many micro conversations. We're taking these micros and making them macros. Like the things that people you know, get online and discuss and debate about and argue about.
Over and over and over and over.
And the biggest scheme of things mean nothing. And that's why things just come and go in this era. Every day you get online and you know, it looks like there's a conversation that's the biggest thing in the world. Wait three hours, Wait four hours, wait twelve hours, it'll be completely gone and it'll be like, well, damn, I thought everybody was so concerned about this, you know, two
days ago. So I just have a problem with everything being so macro that shouldn't be nowadays, and the things that we should be discussing, like the big macro conversations, we have a way of making those so micro and that's the background noise. That's why, even like you know, on Breakfast Club or a my podcast Brilliant Idiots, when we do discuss things right that might be rooted in pop culture, I'm always trying to see, like, what's the
bigger conversation that we can be having behind this. It can't just be that y'all think this person is a terrible person, that was a bad tweet. Like what's the psychology or what's the thing that we can you know, discuss that people are gonna actually learn from.
That's what I I want to do.
And how do you break that cycle? Let's say you bump into someone that you haven't seen for a bit, and I think a lot of people struggle with this. She's at a party an event in the corridor and you go, hey, how's going, Oh yeah good, yeah, cool, and you know you're not listening. You know, there's no real thing. How do you break that? If you can? So one example is you say, look, we don't have to do this? How do you break it in a
positive sense? Like how even people with their friends, with their family or our family dinner and everyone's talking about whatever, how do you actually break that and elevate that, Like what's a healthy way.
Tell them be honest about what you're feeling in that moment, Like, Yo, we ain't talking about nothing right now. I'd be like, yo, well who's going to start the conversation? Throw something on
the table? Like literally, that's what this book is. This book is literally just a series of topics that I feel like, you know, you could just throw in at a lunch throwing at a dinner table, you know, throwing if you're just sitting around on a plane with somebody and you want to have a conversation but you can't, Like we make this a lot more difficult than we need to, and it takes is for somebody to break the ice. That's all you're literally waiting for, and you're
sitting at it. You know, you're sitting around with somebody. You're just like I want to talk, but I just don't know what to say, and you're thinking, should I bother this person? Should I not bother this person? Does this person want to be bothered. Does this person want to talk? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Maybe that's a question, right, You can ask them, like you feel like having a conversation. If that person says no, respect that,
don't ask them that, hoping that they say yes. But if they say no, you're still going to force them to have the conversation. Like sometimes you should just ask a person like, yo, you got time to talk? How often do you get that?
Jay? Exactly?
People just run up to you and they just throw their stuff on you all the time, instead of saying, yo, Jay, you got time to speak right now? And if you say not, at the moment they're offended. You may not want to offend them, so you take time to have this meaningless conversation, this small talk. You're just telling them yeah, just because you don't want to offend them. But then you're not even really paying attention. So nobody's doing it.
We're not doing each other any favors about doing so just be honest about what you're feeling in that moment.
Yeah, And I feel like the reason you pointed out there, the reason why so many of us are struggling to be honest with people is because people are offended by honesty, even if it's genuine, and even if it's thoughtful, like you just said, Like if I asked you, I was like, hey, Charlamann, can you talk about this? And you were like, Jeae, I don't have time right now because of this, this
and this or whatever. I'm in between something. As a respectful person back, I'm going to like, I understand that I actually had someone that message this morning. I'd message someone inviting them to an event and they didn't get back to me, and they messaged me this morning and
we're just like, Jay, I'm so sorry. I was like getting ready for the mat and my outfit went wrong and then like I had to figure this out and it's been crazy and it all worked out, but I wanted you to know, you know, I always respond to you. And I was like, yeah, I wasn't offended at all. I respect that and thank you for explaining and it
turned out. But a lot of the times I feel we're scared of being honest because we're scared the other person's going to turn around and go, oh, you never get back to me, Oh you think you're too important for me. We are scared of offending people. We don't stop being so offended, because I feel like anything offends anyone these days.
That's a multi laying answer, right, because number one, I think we have to stop being people pleases. And I think that you know, if you grow up in a certain environment, you've had certain things you know happened to you.
Like my therapist always told me.
Like, I know exactly why I'm a people pleaser, right, and I talk about it in the book. I'm a people pleaser because you know of abuse to ourselves at.
The age of eight.
Right, So me not wanting that young lady to touch me anymore turned into her calling me ugly and saying I had a big nose. So in order for her to stop doing that, I would continue to let her, you know, touch on me. So it's like, you don't realize how that carries on into adulthood to where you just become this people pleaser. You don't want to let anybody down because if you feel like you let them down, then they're going to start speaking ill about you and doing things that hurt your feelings.
So you just continue to do what's best for them, sacrificing your own piece.
And we can't do that, you just got to set boundaries for yourself and be like, yo, I'm not going to be a people pleaser in any way, shape or form. And man, honestly, if my boundaries, you know, caused somebody to feel offended, then that's the whole point of having the boundary in the first place.
I kind of have a boundary from.
This person to begin with, because you're upset with me, because I'm placing a boundary for my peace of mind.
Nah, I don't need you on my life to begin with.
Yeah, how early? Well, when were you ready to revisit that eight year old self? Like when did you feel comfortable to even reflect back on that in therapy? Because I imagine that, or you can tell me when you were eight did you just block it out in the next few years and then when did you go back to it and say, oh, actually, that's where a lot of it started.
I was watching an episode of Open Winford and Tyler Perry was on there, and Tyler Perry was, you know, crying about the abuse that he experienced from a woman in his family. And I think I was in my twenties, and I remember saying to myself, like, what's wrong with him?
Why is he you know, upset about that.
And then when at some point I remember saying to myself, well, what's wrong needed I thought it was okay, but then you kind of suppressed it again because I wasn't going to therapy on my twenties. But when I started going to therapy in like my late like mid thirties, that's when I started to unpack a whole lot of that stuff, because you know, you go to therapy for one thing, You go to therapy because you're dealing with you think
you're dealing with anxiety and depression. Then you start peeling back all of these different layers and you start realizing all of this other trauma you know that you've experienced, and you know that was that was one of those things like you know, being a people pleaser, not setting proper boundaries because of that moment that happened to me, you know, when I.
Was eight years old, and carried on throughout my whole whole.
Adult life until I finally realized, like, oh, this is why I don't like letting people down. This is why I do things, you know, for people even when I don't want to. This is why even if I'm not happy necessarily about doing something. I just go along to do it because I don't want to upset or offend that person, to cause that person to be, you know, looking at me in a negative way. So I would say like mid thirties is when I really started unpacking it.
So it's probably been like the last ten years of really unpacking it.
And when you ate, how long did that abuse lost? Like how recurring was it?
And I don't know, man, because and I even mentioned it in the book, I suppressed so much abuse that I experienced when I was young that it wasn't even that one person, you know, but you just you suppress it because in a lot of ways, it becomes the norm. Like I remember being young, like nine, ten eleven years old, having conversations with other young men I grew up around, and we were all talking about older women we was dealing with, and we thought we was lying to each other.
But now when you look back.
On it, it was just all a bunch of young kids getting abused. But when you were a young man, you don't look at it like that. When you were a young man and you're just like, oh, I'm getting action early. You know, I'm getting action early, and I'm getting action with older women early, so you don't look at it like that until you get older and realize how man, how a lot of that impacts you, you know, like mentally and emotionally.
Yeah, what were some of the ways that you think that impacted you? And it's interesting, I love what you said that, like, when you're young, you actually see that as like ego, bravardo, arrogance, Like it's cool. What were the things that you started to extrapolate through therapy and the work you did where you're like, oh, that's the kind of impact that it's had in my real life and my real adult life.
The biggest one for me is the people pleasing aspect. That's literally the biggest one. Like not having no boundaries and when I did try to set boundaries with one of the women in particular, her you know, getting in my head psychologically, calling me ugly and saying I got a big nose and all of this other stuff. So for me, the biggest, you know, issue was the fact that I just did not know how to set proper boundaries. And when I did set them, it was like it
wasn't the brick house, it was the straw house. You know, you could just blow it, you could just blow it away. So I never really set any proper boundaries. It wasn't until I started unpacking a lot of that stuff that I realized, like, no, I'm gonna set my boundary and I'm not gonna be upset at you know, any bad, big bad wolf that's mad that they can't blow my house down.
Yeah.
What I find interesting especially is I think we all developed a peacemaker people pleaser personality type through different reasons. How have you found yourself not being a people pleased with your therapist? Because I find a lot of people end up playing that role where they can't be honest with their therapist because we want our therapists to like us and say well done, like good work, you know, like oh you really? So how did you find yourself
getting that ability? Because I think a lot of people listening and watching maybe going to therapy. They may be trying to turn to help, but actually they find themselves playing that same role with that therapist.
Man, I got a new therapist know this passion, and my first therapist I might have been lying to her probably fifty sixty percent of the time, just because there was so many things that I thought I wanted to share, but I wasn't, and it wasn't until earlier this year, you know, having me and my wife went away on this nice little spiritual retreat for a weekend, and you know, we was indulging in plant based medicines, you know, ayahuasca in particular, and one of the things that came forth
for me was literally stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. And so much came up in that moment, you know, so much, you know, like I said, abuse to that experienced as a child, all of that type of stuff. And that's when I was like, oh, I've been I've been telling half truths. I haven't been being completely honest, like I've been telling, you know, just enough of a of a story to
get just enough back. But that's not how you you know, properly heal anything, Like you gotta deal with it all, you know, don't even don't even don't even try. And so for me, I feel like, you know, I probably was lying to like my first therapist for like, I would literally probably stay half of the time.
And do you think we do that because we're actually scared of having that address?
Is that the reason one hundred it's still fear, it's still insecurity that we're not willing to share with anyone. Like even that night that I was, you know that that that that first but that was the second night
of the journey on ayahuasca. Like me and my wife been together twenty six years, and I was sharing things with her that I never had shared with any anybody, and that felt so so, so so freeing, And even in that moment, I'm like, I don't think there's anybody else I trust to share these things with, not even a a therapist, no matter how good the therapist is,
no matter how you know, great, the therapist is. Like this individual that I've shared majority of my life with is the only person I feel comfortable, you know, putting all that on the table for Yeah.
I think that's a really interesting point because I think the words honesty and vulnerability have somewhat been exploited in and of themselves in this idea that if you're honest, everyone has to know everything, like you have to just
put it all out there. What you just said is actually, even with my therapist, they're not going to get one hundred percent version of me because my wife, my partner, who's been with me for over twenty years now, it's like that person not only deserves it, but we've built up enough trust and there's earned respect where we both
can share that. What's been your take on the Internet, like oversharing, undersharing, overtelling, undertelling, Because I feel like there was a point in time where it's like, if you're vulner you better say everything to everyone, right, Like that's what vulnerability is. And I think there was like this false pressure that you had to share all your business with everyone.
Yeah, I think on the Internet a lot of people crying out for help who probably not probably who need to be in therapy actually talking to somebody, And there's a whole lot of people just lying. But that's what I mean when I say, you know, stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. Every single day people wake up and just volunteer lies for
no reason. And I'm not saying lives have to be negative, Like they just lie about their life, They lie about who they are, they lie about what they do, and it's like nobody asked you for that, Like nobody, So you're inviting all of this negative energy into your life. You're inviting all of this opinion and all of this critique. That's literally going to have real world consequences because that's
the stuff that's going to give you anxiety. That's the stuff that's going to, you know, cause you to have a Boucher depression and you're you're going to be sitting there dealing with all of this stuff for you created like what is the point of that? So it's like for me, man, we really all just have to stop volunteering, you know, the lies we tell ourselves to others.
Yea, what led you towards plant medicine is a method of healing, as a method of reflection? Like what made you go down that route? Because you've done therapy for years, you've talked about it, you're a big ambassador for mental health. What was the opening there?
I mean, it was just something I wanted to try and then they always say, you know, you don't you don't do it unless it's calling you. And so you know, just reading about it and you know, seeing you know, what other people's take on it was like two things that really attracted me was everybody that did it was telling me like, y'all I saw God, like I knew people who were atheists, like like Neil Brennan was an atheist and he did it and now he's like a
believer and you know, and I was like, whoa. And I've always had faith and I've always been a believer. So I just wanted to kind of see, like I want to see, you know, see see more of that. And I think people saying how it detaches you from your ego, Like I thought that was very powerful because that's something that we all try to do every day. But they was like, no, it feels like somebody literally takes your ego and just rips it away from you.
And I wanted to know what that felt like.
And man, absolutely overstand what it felt like, especially that that that second night.
Yea, where did you go for it? Where did you try it out?
I was in I was in California, Okay.
Okay, okay, great, Great, you didn't go too far? No, because I've heard of I've had friends go out to like Costa Rica and then you and.
Yeah, Sean, and I talked to was like, welly, I even I think it was. I don't know it was Perule coach Riga was somewhere. I forgot where it was. But he was just like that's a jungle. He was like, you don't want to have that kind of experience in the jungle. I mean he wasn't knocking anybody. He just like, for you on your first time, I just don't, you know, recommend that. So it was just kind of like the vine alignment, Like it was one of those things like it had been calling me for the.
Past I would say, five or six years.
Wow, and then like the opportunity just presented itself, you know, with some with some some people with some really great energy.
And I was like, yeah, why not and it just all lined up.
It's one of those things is like, oh, I'm actually treat this weekend.
Yeah, the wife wanted to do it. We went to do it.
It's beautiful. What did you What have you found? Has been the hardest thing for you to be honest with yourself about everything everything.
You know, it's so easy for us to get caught up in line ourselves because we do it to protect
ourselves in a lot of way. Right, So, like it might be a person that you genuinely have love for, like genuinely just as on a human level, Like you love this person and like you know this person might have a talent or skill set that you know you want to help amplify, like provide an opportunity for but you know as well as I do that you know, character talent sometimes will take people with character can't sustain them.
So even though you see this person's talent, you know, once they get in a certain position, you realize that character isn't going to be able you know, to keep them there, but you will constantly lie to yourself about this person's character over and over and over and over, and then you wonder why things aren't working out, and literally,
it will affect everything that you're doing. Like let's just say it's a team and you put this person as part of the team, and this person is causing problems with the rest of the team, and you see it, but you make any excuses for it, you know. And it's like even a friend that you might have been friends with a person for a long, long, long time, and you know, y'all have very deep intimate conversations, so you know this person differently than a lot of other
people know them. So you get a soft spot, you know, in your heart for said individuals. So when you're hearing everybody else talk about how terrible this person is. You're lying to yourself about it. You're like, no, y'all just don't understand this person. Like it's like, no, the reality is they are a terrible person and they need to do more work and they need to really, you know, figure themselves out. So you know the biggest thing, Yeah,
it's just we constantly a lot ourselves about everything. You might you might look in the mirror and know you need to lose twenty pounds, Like you might put a shirt on and know it don't quite fit right, but you'll pull on it and tug it, and you know, how does this look? You know, somebody like, oh, it looks like it look good and you're like, hey, it does.
And then you get on Instagram and then you get humbled because it's a bunch of people that don't know you at all who are willing to tell you the truth about how you look. Then you out to yourself again and you say this stuff, Oh, they just hating. You knew that was whack when you put it on. You knew you had no right putting that shirt on before you put it on, but you decided to do it anyway.
So I just feel like we. I think every single moment of.
Our lives is an exercise in being honest with ourselves first and foremost, and then the rest of them world, and then choosing who to share that honesty with, because sometimes people aren't lying.
It's just none of your business.
And I think that's something that people forget too, especially in this.
World of oversharing.
I have to constantly remind people that, especially in this era of the Internet. I'm like, when you're talking about celebrities, you don't know any of these people. I don't care what they post on social I don't care what you hear in their music. You genuinely do not know any of these individuals.
Stop lying yourself like you do in what sense? Because I'm thinking of something, But in what sense do you mean? Like we don't know the more? How that applies to us? You think we're commentating on a life that we don't know about it.
People?
You know, people past these judgments, Like you'll see whole psycho analysts about people, right, and it's like, how did you come to that conclusion?
Like literally you're breaking down a person's whole path.
Oh, they're are narcissists and they're egotistical, and they're out for this. I'm like, how do you know based off a tweet? How do you know based off one conversation that they had? You don't know this person. This person has lived, you know, thirty plus years, forty plus years, whatever it is. You do not spend every waking moment with this individual. How do we come to these full blown conclusions about people that we don't know. I had somebody get mad at the other day because I told
them I don't know this person personally. We were talking about an artist, and I was like, I don't know that person personally. Now that the person I was talking to did so, I understand how they felt, But I don't have that same personal connection or feelings towards this individual because I don't have a personal connection with them.
And when it comes to public figures, a lot of times it makes you more objective because you don't have any bias, because anybody that you actually have a connection with, you're going to have a natural bias toward them.
That's another thing we lie to each other about.
We lie to each other like whereas so honest and so objective when we all have our biases for people, we all have our biases for places.
We all have our biases for things, and that's okay.
Yeah, And if you can address that and say, yeah, I know I got a bias, then you could actually have an honest conversation about whatever it is you're talking about. Our look at things, you know, from an honest perspective. If you can't even be honest about your biases, then you're starting off from a lie.
Yeah. I often find it's this observer mindset that we're missing, where it's like, okay, we're having a conversation right now, but can I actually allow myself to look at it from this perspective? If I can't do that, like if I can't see, oh, I'm currently displaying ego and the other person is currently displaying defensiveness. If I can't see what I'm displaying and what someone else is and I'm only seeing what they're displaying, then I'm not really observing.
I can't be objective absolutely, and I find that that's exactly what's missing where and I can testify to what you just said, whether it's inaccurate guest lists at people's wedding that are printed in the papers, or whether it's inaccurate oh, I know the news saying oh, they're going to get a divorce, or their kids hate them, or whatever else it is. You notice, Yeah, I can testify
to having knowing people going None of that's true. And it goes back to the point you started with, which is this idea of we get so lost commentating on everything and everyone else that we know nothing about that we don't have time and energy to work on what's going on inside here. Absolutely, and I find it remarkable that we spend our lives trying to solve, psychoanalyze, entertain ourselves by someone else's problems rather than fixing our own.
We do that on purpose, because if we can talk about everybody else, then we can avoid that hard, painful, excruciating work it takes to deal with our own bs. I. If I can look at everyone else, I can avoid looking in.
That mirror all day long.
I'm too busy sight seeing other people and commentating on other people, so I never have to look.
In the mirror. You know, at at at what it is that I need to fix. Yah.
Yeah, you said something that's interesting too, man, And that's why that's why this error we're in is so difficult. And I think even you know, our positions as media personalities, because you know, I remember when I used to work for Wendy Wims. She used to always say to me, you're either gonna be of the people or of the industry. But it's almost impossible when you're in the business, because you're gonna actually meet people and you're gonna develop relationships.
And I think a lot of times when we have a different perspective of things because we're kind of in it.
Like I've literally been with individuals.
Couples, watching them love on each other, watching them kiss on each other, and then it'll be like breaking news they're getting a.
Divorce, they hate each other, like they're a part.
And I'm like, this is a mind because I'm like, whoa, And it puts so much in perspective, and not even just that, like us as individuals, you'll see things about yourself and you like that's not remotely true, Like that's not even accurate at all, And everybody around you will be mad, and everybody around you be upset, and you'll be pissed off too. But then you have to really
say to yourself, what are you gonna do. I'm not going I refuse to go on the defensive and start explaining to myself to a bunch of people who never even took the time to learn the truth. Anyway, if you didn't, you never took the time to learn the truth. So you would rather just put this out there, you know, printice say these things, not care if you're accurate, you know, not, not care if there's any falsehoods, You just whatever. So why would I take the time to explain the truth to you?
Now?
Now not only am I validating what you've said to a certain extent or not now what you said, but validating you and your platform.
Now I'm actually giving you more content. Yeah, yeah, I'm not doing that at all.
Yeah, for sure, for sure, I was going to go back to the personal again with you, because I feel like a big turning point in your book that you talk about that a calm wait for people to dive into, is this moment where you realize that your father was cheating on your mom, and like that is like a really big moment for you at that point because you're, like, I think, seventeen years old and you're learning about this and naturally you feel like, tell me how you felt
like in that moment, because it almost feels like the first time you discovered that something's alie, like in a big way.
I mean, yeah, that was a very macro conversation, you know, because I had made up my mind in that moment that me and my pops couldn't have no small talk about this situation because you know, we live in a small town, so you're hearing it constantly, right, and you're you're driving by, you know, this house, and you're seeing his truck out there, and you know, you're fully aware of all of the different eyes that he's that He's told my mom like, oh, I'm just I'm over there
doing work. Oh, that's my secretary, all this other stuff. Right, So finally, you know, just deciding to have the macro conversation and say, Yo, you out of hit cheating, No mom, what you do in is file.
And my dad was like, yo, you only got one girlfriend. You know one day you.
Gonna understand, like he that's what That was his reply to me, and that that messed me up for a while because that's my hero. Like still to this day, I love my dad. Like my dad, I fully understand, you know, the totality of my father as a man and as I've become a man myself. At forty five years old, I overstand you know, everything that you know he went through. And so when he said that to me, I felt like I had to live up to his expectations. So that's when it became a thing of oh, let
me show him that I can get a roster. I don't have to be, you know, committed to one person. And yo, that lasted for a while, not not a while, but too long for my liking, right, And so I remember later on years down the line, my dad saying to me, you know, the worst thing that he ever did was caused my mother to leave him, and telling me that I always had it right, because he you know, I'm with the same woman right for twenty six years.
He was like telling me I always had it right, and I'm like, damn, that's why you shouldn't always listen to a dotes bro. Like, just because you love a person and they're older than you and they got more experiences than you, don't mean that they're always right. But I give my father so much grace because, you know, one of the first breakthrough, the first breakthrough I ever had in therapy, I mean, the thing that led me to tears. Was just realizing that my father used to
discipline me for things that he never taught me. And now I even take it a step further and say, my father used to discipline me for things that he never taught me, but also for things that he never learned himself. So a lot of his his his his his raising of me was he was raising me through fear and not love, right, so because he just didn't want me to make the same mistakes.
That he made.
He was terrified of me going down, you know, the same path that he went down, and I ended up going down that path anyway, like even down to you know, the mental health journey. Like when I wrote my second book, you know, Shook One anxiety playing tricks on me. When I wrote that, I was all the way discombobulated. I had no idea whether I was coming or going because I had just started going to therapy and I had just started peeling back a lot of those layers.
So I was just raw, like I had.
I had no idea who I was. There was this character that had been created named Charlamagne. I'm like, I don't know who this person is. Then I'm dealing with Leonard myself. I don't know who this person is. So I was just all over the place, and I literally just put it all in that book and had a doctor ish major do clinical correlations to the things that I was talking about. But he, my father, had read that book and I talk about this story in the book,
but he had read that book. And that same week, I had a cousin who had completed suicide. And he had attempted to complete suicide like four other times, and the fourth time he completed it. I think he was like twenty five years old. So my dad was triggered by a.
Lot of that stuff.
He was triggered by a lot of the stuff I wrote in my book, and he was definitely triggered by my cousin completing suicide. So my father calls me and he tells me, you know, he read the book talking about my cousin a little bit and he goes, man, you know, I tried to commit suicide thirty plus years ago, but I didn't because of you know, your older sister and you. And he was like, you know, I was
on two to three medications. No, he was actually on ten to twelve medications and he was going to therapy two and three times a week dealing with his own mental health issues, and so much so that the state of Sart Carolina just started giving him a check. And that's what they used to call it, a crazy check. So I remember asking my mom, like, yo, you know, you know Dad was going through all of this, and she was like, I just thought he was playing crazy
to get a check. So just think about that, Like, think about if he was able to just express self and have those conversations with us as a family back then, how that would have saved me, you know, so much grieful when I was dealing with panic attacks and stuff as a child and thinking something was you know, you know, wrong with me, And.
Just all of that makes me give my father a whole lot of grace.
He's just a man who was just trying to do his best, you know, with what he had and the knowledge he had at the time. So I don't hold I held a lot of that against him for.
A long, long, long, long time.
But it was in that moment in twenty eighteen when he told me everything he was dealing with. I don't know why, it just clicked, Like my dad just a man, Yeah, Like he just a man, Just like I'm a man, like, who am I to not give him the same grace I want.
Totally what's allowed you to have that Charlaman to be able to zoom out and have that context and that grace because I think when we're analyzing these things and you kind of connect the DUTs, you're like, oh, yeah, my dad treat me like that. That's why I became like that, That's why I made that mistake. And you can spend so much time in this very linear back and forth journey of that was the past, that's how it connects to the present, that's how it impacted my life.
But you're almost looking at it from a bird's eye view looking down, going, oh that makes sense, So my dad went through and then you can give grace, you can have what was the key in therapy and in your personal work that shifted it from being this linear thing to being a bird's eye view of this situation.
I honestly think I've always had that as a child, like always like I've always had a bird's eye view with things, Like I've always felt in tune to something to something else, Like there was always like this voice in my head or this spirit that was you know, moving me in certain directions are causing me to see
certain things. Sometimes I will see things I wasn't supposed to see, you know, literally and figuratively, right, And I've always had these visions, and I just I remember my dad always telling me when I was a child, if you don't change your ways, you gonna.
End up in jail, dead or broke under the tree.
And a lot of people hear that but don't actually learn that and apply that. For some reason, I was able at a young age to actually start seeing people that I love go to jail, like for prison sentences. And I was going to jail, and you know, I saw people around me that were actually getting killed. And I saw older cousins who I used to look up to. They are sitting under the tree kind of like not doing much with themselves.
And I'm like, oh, that's not gonna be me.
And I literally could see, all right, everything I do today directly is gonna impact what happens to me tomorrow. So I need to start doing what I need to do today. It's like, yo, if I, you know, continue to eat like this, I'm gonna be fat in the future. Right, Like, if I don't read this book. You know, my knowledge
is gonna be limited in the future. So I've always, you know, by the grace of God, just tended to have like a bird's eye view with things like my third eye is has been opened for quite a long time, like to the point even when I think about, like me and my wife had a nonprofit back in the day, Well we thought it was a nonprofit when we set it up. We set it up as a nonprofit, but we never went through the proper channels to make it
a nonprofit. It just sounded like, oh, we go set this, you know, it's one of those things.
And so we had.
It was called third eye awareness, like literally that's what it was called. Even when like the first tattoo I ever got was Wolverine from The X Men, because I love Wolverine, right, I love the x Men. I'm a big comic book guy. But back then I got the tattoo when I was like seventeen years old. This one, tattoos were illegal in South Carolina. I got the tattoo because the thing that attracted me towards Wolverine was his
healing powers. And so the tattoo I got on my arm is Wolverine holding a microphone in his hand because I thought rap was gonna be what changed my life. But lo and behold, it was these type of microphones that changed my life. And you know, now I feel like my purpose in life is to not only continue to heal myself, but to continue to help as many other people.
You know, get on there, get on their healing journey.
So I was sixteen seventeen years old thinking about stuff like this. Sixteen seventeen, you get a tattooed like that, and in your mind you're explaining it perfectly. I'm like, yo, I'm attracted the wolvernverine because of his healing.
Powers, and then.
Wrapped the microphone.
But now I'm forty five, about to be forty six, I'm looking at it like, oh, I understand what that was now. And that was another revelation that came to me, you know, when I went on my Awaska journey, it was like, Yo, nothing has been wasted, literally nothing. There is absolutely nothing that has happened to me in my life.
Whether you want to label a good, bad, you know.
Ugly, pretty, whatever it was, nothing has gone to waste in my life. Every single thing has a purpose and had a purpose and has gotten me to this point. And I think, man, when you look at things through that lens, it just kind of like shapes. It shapes your understanding of trauma, and you know why so called bad things happen in a different way.
I don't look at it as good or bad.
It was just like one process of life that gets you to this point.
I think, you just nail something so powerful. Then I want to emphasize it for people because I think we go through this loop where we say, oh, now I get it. Everything else I was wrong, I wasted time. Now I get it, and then a few years later we go, oh, no, no, no, I just waste the last few years. Now I get it. And we constantly have this belief that we have to neglect and reject our
past in order to establish our present. We feel like we have to constantly say our past was a waste of time in order to establish that our present is now us doing the right thing. And I actually fully agree with you and completely disagree with that, because what you're doing is you're negating all of the lessons, all of the wisdom, all of the learning, all of the
growth that actually got you to that point. Absolutely and then you're also negating the fact that all the skills you learn during that time, all the habits, they could still be useful. But because you're writing off that time, you're writing off all of that growth. And I've been saying that so many people lately. Even when people are like I think I'm wasting my time. I'm trying to find a new job. I want to do something I'm passionate about. Oh, Jay, Like the last few years, I
just waste them being anxious. Now I'm confident. It's like no, no, no, no, no, Like, you need to remember that because that's how you got here. And by the way, life is going to give you those scenarios again, and you're gonna need to remember this because next time it will be a familiar right, It'll be like a familiar feeling of Oh, I've been there, I know how to deal with this.
That's why when even when you're talking to, you know, young people in the field, and they'll say things to you like, well, what if I, you know, leave New York and go to Atlanta and things don't work in Atlanta? I'm like okay, Like and like, what do you mean if things don't work? Because what you're going to realize later on in life is regardless of what happened when you were there, it worked. I don't care if you went down there and you worked there for six months
and got fired. There's going to be something you pick up in those six months. There's gonna be somebody you meet in those six months. It might just be a time of your life that you actually enjoy and you need that. You might just need to be in a different environment, you know, for a little while, But there's gonna be something you pick up within those six months that's gonna make you realize, like it worked. I think, you know, we have these extremes when it comes to work.
I could easily look back in my radio career and be like, I got fired four times, So those were four times things didn't work. That is a complete lie. Every single one of those situations I got fired from. I had the time of my life and I learned so much from and I met people that are still, you know, my friends to this day. So I wouldn't trade any of that for the world. Like for all I know, how do we know what we're doing now is working?
Yeah, we don't.
This is just what we're doing in the moment. I know what's working for now. But who's to say this is what we're going to be doing when we're fifty years old. Who's to say this is what we're going to be doing we're sixty, we might be still trying to hold on to breakfast club and on purpose and God is like, I need you to move. Yeah, he might even still let you keep it, but you'll be sitting here unhappy, depressed, angry, like, oh, why isn't things
moving the way I want him to move? It's because God asked you to move a long time ago, but you didn't want to because you're still trying to make this work and it's not working no more. Just because something is successful doesn't mean that it's working totally, you know, totally. That's such a good point. That's such a good point, and it reminds you. There's this beautiful story that the
Buddha used to tell about person. He's on a journey, and they're on this journey and they come across an obstacle, and the first obstacle is this fast flowing river. So they realize, I need to build a raft. So they get the bamboo, they get the they tie it up they build themselves and owe and then they paddle with all their strength and they get to the other side, and then they think, this raft saved my life. I'm going to take it wherever I go. So they strap
it to their back and they carry on walking. And then the Buddha says that, just like us, this person gets to another challenge, and the challenge is not a fast flowing river. This time it's a tall wooded forest with trees dotted at every other step. So now the person's trying to walk through and the raft keep getting stuck, and they're trying to maneuver, and they're trying to get through,
and the raft is getting chipped. The raft is blocking them from walking through, and the Buddha says, the person has two choices. They either hold on to the raft and they struggle to get through, or they put it down and they walk on freely. And it's the same thing point that you're making right now, this idea of like, what are you holding on to that you believe made you successful, but is actually stopping you from breaking through
the next challenge. And if you keep holding onto it's just going to hurt your hands, going to hurt your back. You're never going to walk through. And I agree, success is probably the greatest prison because the feeling of success is so intoxicating that you think, I'm just gonna keep doing this like a drug because it makes me feel good, but actually I may not be actually feeling healthy well, feeling like I'm moving in my best self. And I've seen that even in my career. I remember when I
first died my work. We grew based on videos I made on Facebook, and today, eight years on, I don't make those videos anymore.
Facebook is not our core platform anymore. We had to move on and evolve, and I've seen that time and time again, whether it's been a YouTube platform or whatever it is. And I think we get tied to platforms, we get tied to algorithms, we get tied to patterns, We get tied to all these things, and then eventually we become a prisoner of the pattern and get it become a prison of the algorithm, and letting it go
is hard. And what you're saying right now, like recognizing that what you're doing right now maybe something you have to let go of is a healthy he thought.
Man, I'm living proved.
I talk about that in the book, you know, getting on us to die line while small talk sucks shameless plug. But I talk about that in the book because two thousand and sixteen, that's why I was at with it. You know, I'm six years in on the Breakfast Club. I'm having more success than I ever imagined. I'm making more money than I ever imagined. Like, you know, I put out my first book, Black Privilege. It's an instant New York Times bestseller. Like we moving like things are great,
things are fantastic. But I'm not happy. And the reason I'm not happy because I'm still dealing with this anxiety. I'm still dealing with, you know, this depression. And I'm starting to feel like, you know, I'm becoming a character sure of myself to a certain extent. And it was like when I made the decision to start going to therapy number one. But then you start going to therapy and you start saying to yourself, like, all right, this has gotten me to this point, what is going to
get me to that next level of life. I wasn't thinking about career or anything like that. I said, what's going to get me to that next level of life? Because I want to enjoy life. I want to wake up more happy than depressed. You know, I want to you know, wake up feeling you know, more secure about myself than imposter syndrome? Like what's going to get me to that? And what got me to that was letting go of just what I felt like people wanted from me.
And that's another reason the comments and stuff was so dangerous because you can put things out there and immediately get real time feedback, and you know, this is this is twenty eighteen, right or twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, you know, or prior to that, it was two and twenty sixteen.
Things weren't weren't that toxic on social.
Media, so you could kind of get like some real world criticism and you would see these things that you know, I guess people like about you, so you would constantly feed them more of that. Or you got publications saying, oh, Charlamagne is the hip hop Howard Stern.
You're like, oh, what does that mean?
So you start giving them more of the wild, you know, crazy antics before all. I know, they could have meant that because of you know, the introspective interviews that that that that get done on Breakfast Club as well. But I wasn't seeing that aspect of it. I was just seeing the raw ride of wildness. And so for me, just personally and professionally, I just was not happy and I had to, you know, let that go. So that was the most freeing thing for me because when I
did that, I experienced way more. I wouldn't be with you, you know, having the success that I've had if I hadn't let that raft go. And there was also a period where, you know, because of this cancel culture era you live in, you be definitely ashamed to see some of the stuff that you you know, used to do. You're not You're not necessarily ashamed of it. You're more so afraid of, oh, they're gonna use this against me whatever, whatever. But guess what, you can't care about that.
Yeah.
And the reason you can't care about that because if you really have faith in the Higher Power, if you really trust, you know, God to God, you have to know that every single moment that you were in you were the person you needed to be for that moment, because it's just the journey and it's a process and eventually you become who you're supposed to be. And even the version you're looking at me right now, not the final form of myself. I don't know what that's gonna be.
Nobody does, but I know that I'm on the journey and I'm gonna keep walking.
Yeah.
One thing I wanted to pick your brain about was this idea you kind of alluded to it there. It's this, We have this rhetoric on social media which is like, we want people to be more empathetic and compassionate and kind. We want people to when they share their vulnerable mental health journey that we all gotta listen and be attentive.
But then when sometimes we see someone with a mental health challenge make them act different, we're the first ones to point out that they're an idiot, they're a loser, there's something wrong with them. There's I'll give an example of what I mean by this. Like Tom Holland talked about this when he came on the show. He was talking about how, you know, he's always been seeing as Spider Man and this cool kid and all the rest
of it. And then when he started talking about his mental health or actually know, when he just announced that he'd given up alcohol and he was sober, all the news was like he was saying this he was saying. All the news was like, oh, Tom Holland, the happy, go lucky kid wasn't actually he was depressed. And it was like and they made it a whole thing, and he was like, no, I just gave up alcohol. I wasn't like an alcoholic. I just didn't want to drink anymore.
And so all of a sudden it was like twisted the other way where it was like, oh, the kid that you think is happy, isn't he's depressed, or the kid that he's got mental health or whatever it may be. And it wasn't in the kind of compassionate way. It was more like a well, look, you didn't see this. So I find it like the way we react to certain things. It's almost like we're being hypocrites in and of because at one point we're saying we should care for people to have this, but then we're willing to
point it out. How have you kind of seen that navigate when you see the worst forms of what mental health can do to people versus someone maybe not displaying the worst mental illness externally, but it's just talking about it. Does that make sense?
Yeah?
I don't know how anybody can diagnose someone just by watching them.
Through the media. Like you know, if that's the case, we're all dealing with mental health issues. People just shitty people. And that's the other thing. And by the way we say two things can be true, no, multiple things can be true at one time.
Like you use the example of Tom Holland, why can't he be the happy gold lucky kid who said he's not But that's the only version of him you had in your mind. So now when you see another version that doesn't fit your expectation, you're upset with him.
The happy gold lucky kid is not so happy anymore. That's life. You show me a human that's one emotion all the time.
It's just that when you're a public figure, we get these it's like these these freeze frames. So Tom Holland happy, du you know this person crazy, Like it's just free like literally freeze for this person, always mad, angry for you.
It's these freeze.
Frames of people that's not the whole totality of a person. Like that's actually kind of insane for us to even think about it like that. It's like like like like even if you watch Jay Shaddy on purpose, you have a thought, a perception of Jay Shaddy in your head. You got a perception of charlamage in your head based off something you may have seen.
That's your fault. That's the one thing you saw, and you came.
To a whole diagnosis about an individual. So you know, even when you talk about people having empathy, that goes into what I'm saying now. We might want to every all, everybody, all of these humans might wake up every day saying to themselves, we're gonna be empathetic today and we're gonna be caring and all of that stuff until something happens to somebody that you don't like, and then that all
that goes out the window. I tend to see that people have more empathy and sympathy, and they're more caring towards people they actually like. It's really a popularity contest, but nobody wants to admit that we're not looking at we're not being consistent about any of these things, and we're not being consistent with how we deal with people.
There can be two people that come out in the news today with the same situation, and based off if we like the individual or not, we'll give that person a whole lot of grace and come to that person's defense. But if it's somebody that we don't like, or somebody's social media tells us we shouldn't like, Oh, we're going to bury them. We want them out of here, we want them gone. That's not consistent. And that means you're
lying to yourself. And that means that you're not the person you say that you are, because you should be giving both those individuals the same amount of grace.
But you not. Because we're all hypocrites. And that's fine.
We're everything, like everything that we pin on other people, we are all those things and more. We just got to make sure that we're not projecting.
Yeah.
Wow, that's powerful man, Yeah, that's and it's true. All of us are right. We all have bias. We all have the natural human tendency to be empathetic to people we like, and and we're all that way, and but we've got to be able to see that, because if we can see that, then it's something that we can,
Like you said, we don't project. Otherwise we live in our tiny we were talking about this earlier, like we live in this righteous mind, as Jonathan Hyde calls it, like this idea of like my way is righteous and I believe the way I live and the way I think is the only way and the right way. And that's where it goes wrong, because the truth is, if everyone thinks like that, now you've just got a you know, eight billion righteous ways.
We even have to watch how we express that language, right, because we all do it. We'll say things like, man, the way you're seeing that is strange? Are the way that I can't believe you're seeing things that way?
Why? Because they're not seeing it the way you are.
There's probably nothing wrong with the way that individual is seeing it, But because you think they should see it the way you are seeing it, you're upset with that person. Are you might have had the expectation, I know I can call this person because we love we love confirmation by this right, So I know that I can call this person because this person is going to agree with me. And then when you pick up the phone and call that person or text that person and realize that person
has a different opinion. Now you're arguing back and forth with that person, trying to get them to see things the way you see things. It's like, no, let them see it the way they want to see it. Like one of the hardest things to do is to get is to step into somebody else's shoes. One of the hardest things to do is to see things from the perspective of other people. I literally fight myself to do that,
and some people might say, oh, he's being a contrarian. No, I'm just literally I've literally taken the time to step out of myself Steven of that person shoes, see how.
They see it, and I can understand where they're coming from. What's wrong with that?
Yeah, I don't see any I don't see anything wrong with that. And I'm not saying that person is right, that person's wrong. I'm just simply saying I can see where that person's coming from. Like I said, multiple things can be true at once. I can think a person's wrong and still see where they're coming from. I can think a person's right but still see where they're wrong at in their argument as well.
I think that's very hard for humans to do, and I don't know why.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean talking about calls you talking about in the book, the calls that you get from Kanye Yeah, and that call, like will cuts through how that applies to what you're saying here where you're trying to see things through his perspective. But then year old select but I know Pete and were friends.
Yeah, his perspective was I'm black, he's black. We both from hip hop culture. He's from hip hop culture. Pete Davidson is this white kid from Staten Island who does comedy.
He's younger than us because we are wearing our forties. He's younger than us.
You know, his.
Ex wife is now out here Dayton Pete.
I'm gonna call Charla Magne because I need Charlemagne to start, you know, siding with me against Pete Davidson.
And he should because.
He's black and I'm the cultures as Kanye says, and it's like, no, Pete Davison is my friend. I can care if he's black. I can care if he's white. I care what race is. I don't care what age he is. That's somebody that I met when he was sixteen years old, when we was all doing you know, guy cold together, and we developed a real friendship and a real bond. I know his mother, like, I mean, me and his mom talk. We check on each other.
I've been in his mom's house. You don't sit in somebody's mom's house and eat food with eat food with them, and call that person a friend and then turn around and do snake shit like that. Pete's been to my house, He's been around my kids, he's been around my wife.
I know him.
You're not going to call me and get me to turn on my friend and try to, you know, say, because we're black and we're of the coaches.
It's like, no right is right, wrong is wrong.
And as I told him, you know, and I had to quote Snoop Dogg from the nineteen nineties, you mad, don't be mad at the don't be mad at the player.
Hate the game because your girl chose him. You know, I didn't say girl. I used some other language. I use the languge Snoop used.
But your girl chose him, and she's a grown woman making her own decisions. Y'all not together, No more so for me, it's like, you're not gonna call me and try to guilt trip me, you know, using using blackness and hip hop to go against somebody I consider a friend. Because if I considered you a friend like that, Kanye, nobody could make me do that to you as well,
you know, So it's really that simple with me. I don't have you know, I don't have flexible morals and values when it comes to people that I love and when it comes to people that I consider actual friends and consider actual family. That's why, you know, betrayal hurts so much. That's why when you realize that, you know, certain people's character gets revealed when they don't get what they want from you, Like that's something. That's another realization
that I've been, you know, having a lot lately. It's just like, I don't know that person wasn't necessarily my friend like I thought they were. They were my friend based on what opportunity was being provided. Yes at the time, yes, right, And so it's like it's sad, but you do realize some of that stuff is transactional. That's why I say I'm not mad at being used. Just don't just don't
misuse me. And when things don't go your way, don't all of a sudden start you know, kicking my back end just because things don't go your way, because I'm not going to do that to you other than you know, I'm lying I would do that to you, meaning that when I'm around my people, I'm definitely gonna be like that person is so fucked up, that person is such a like I cannot believe that that individual did such and such. But guess what, I can't believe it because I understand humans.
So I give that.
I give all of those type of you know, human is grace, but you know it does. It's it's very disappointing when you're more solid to a person than they would be with you. Because if I embrace you and I say you my friend, if I say I rock with you, I'm I'm I'm we're gonna ride to the wheels fall off.
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I find it's an interesting one because it's like it's it's almost like also it's it's only the people. The only people that attacked you are the people who you know wanted to do something with you but it didn't happen. Yes, right, what you're saying about changing morals, Like, I find like people attack you and they're like, oh, I want to do a podcast with you, but you didn't want to make it happen, so now I'm going to find a way to attack you.
It didn't work out, And it's interesting because you go, oh, well, then it wasn't ever a collaboration, and it wasn't of high character. It was an opportunity. Now that the opportunity is lost, now you have a different view of this situation.
And and I love that point you made about how that's why I think opportunities going well or not going well shows how someone responds to it absolutely right, Like when there's a yes or a no. Someone who actually responds well to a no and a healthy know again obviously in a way that is communicated effectively. Someone who responds in a positive way to a rejection or a no or a closed door, that person you should keep them around forever.
Yo, man, Jay, you hitting it on the head so crazy. Pause.
It's like, do you remember, like, you know, you ever met somebody who's so talented and you say to yourself, why isn't this person here?
Like why isn't this person doing X, Y and Z Because they're so talented.
And then when you start to like get in business with them and you go down the path with them and you start to you know, be around them, you realize, exactly.
Yeah, they haven't gotten nowhere they need to be.
Because once again, my good friend Marvette Brittle always says, this talent will take you what character can't sustain you. So you start to see like this person is not really a hard work or this person really is a gossip, like this person just likes to talk about everybody else instead of focusing on what they should be focusing on. They're so worried about what everybody else is doing and
trying to shoot down what everybody else is doing. And you're trying to tell them, like, don't worry about that, because you know, listen, sometimes jealousy and envy it's natural, right, but don't focus on what's going right for everybody else because you don't know what's going on in their lives. They might be looking like on the surface, like they're winning and things are great, but they might be going
home crying every night, Like, don't worry about that. You focus on you, but you see that they can't do that. And when things don't go their way, Oh, they become the most they become the worst people. Everybody's the enemy, everybody's a terrible person. All of these people are out to get me. Nobody's looking out for me, And you realize, like that's exactly why you're not where you're supposed to be.
I've had so many doors closed on me. I've heard so I've gotten way more knows you know than Yes, it's in my life.
I never was bitter about.
Any of those nose because I truly believe in God and so whatever God has for me will absolutely positively be for me.
We love saying that, but we don't mean it. You don't mean it. That's when things don't go right for you. Guess what you say? Why? God?
Why is this thing not happening for me? Because I don't want it to at the moment? Do you trust me or not? If you don't trust me, I'll be sitting here waiting until you do. And guess what if you never do, God bless literally exactly straight up, God will be sitting right there. I can bless you at any moment, but I didn't til you ready. You don't trust me anyway, So until you find that trust in me, good good luck.
Yeah, I respect you for that in this I mean you're always like this off online and offline, but in the book, I really feel like you get honest with us. But you're about your own pain and trauma, but you also to get honest with us about just you know, you're just right now, you're just spitting facts like it's just reality. It's just the way it is. And I think one of the things you talk about is this desire to like you want to also make a joke when you can, Like you want to make it funny.
You want to be able to let it, you know, let it kind of live in that world. When have you found it that it works? And when have you found that that doesn't work, Like when you're trying to make something into being funny or silly or kind of lightning the movie? When have you seen that be effective and ineffective? Probably quite often like way ineffective. I mean, I think it works both ways both times, right because because because like say you do it, if you're in
a room full of people, somebody's gonna laugh. But then the person you might be trying to make a laugh does not want to laugh in that moment, so they're the one that's upset.
Now you're really in your head like just trying to make this person laugh. I was just trying to do something good. So now you really like trying to get this person to just have you know, you're trying to put better energy on this person. Reality is should just leave that person alone in that moment. Everything does not require a joke. I have not learned that may not ever. I may not ever, you know, learn that I really
may not. Like I just feel like I like to be around people who don't take things too serious, even when things are serious, because I don't feel like you can, you know, make really good sound decisions when things are too serious because emotions are too high. Like sometimes you gotta like, let's laugh about it, let's joke about it, let's really really really light in the room, and then let's like sit down and try to like figure it out.
Like if you are sitting around a whole bunch of people and everybody's angry and everybody's upset, everybody's mad, you just got a team that's about to make a poor decision. Wow, somebody on the team got to just be like, whoa yo, everybody relax here. Somebody got to be the rational one in the room. And most of the time, the rational one in the room is the person that's not they're taking it serious, but they're just not taking it serious in the way that you want to take it serious.
Cause I'm the type person I'm like, what can I do, Like there's certain situations that you hear about, certain situations you are confronted with in the moment and you realize, like, there's really nothing we can do about this except for let it play out. So while we're letting it play out, let's let's laugh, you know what I'm saying. Let's let's crack some jokes. You ever seen that movie? Uh, don't look up?
Yeah of course, ye, yeah, yeah, exactly how they.
Handled the End of the World.
That's how like I'm talking about Leonard of the character when they were all at dinner, they were still pouring drinks and they were eating. They knew the inevitable was happening. They knew there was nothing they could do to stop it. They spent the whole beginning of the movie trying to stop it, and they accepted fate in that moment, and they decided, I'm going out like this because they knew
there was nothing they could do about it. And I know that that's a movie and it it's probably easier said than done, but that's what I that's what I described for, Like, even in the face of adversity, even when it seems like you know, chicking little the sky is falling, everything's.
Burning down around you. You're like exhibiting that video.
He's just walking and everything's burning down and all this bad stuff is happening behind him, but he's just rapping and moving, rapping and moving.
It's just like, Yo, that's how I feel like.
I want to, you know, constantly live my life and that's the kind of people I want to you know, be around people that keep me in that space.
Yeah, for sure. Last question I ask you, Shelaman before we wrap up, is and it's interesting because it relates to where you just said, if you want to be around this people, how do we find belonging in a world we don't agree with, but stop ourselves from only being friends with people we agree with? Right? It's like, because right now we look at belonging, It's like, if
we agree, then I find belonging. But we both know from what you're saying in the book, from what you're saying right now, from what you say on your podcast, from what you say on your show, is like, but you are very comfortable sitting down having uncomfortable, awkward conversations with people who people wouldn't place you with.
That's right.
From completely different backgrounds, different walks of life, different schools of thought, and you find that to be a very important thing to do. Absolutely, So, how do we find belonging in a way that we're not just creating little echo chambers and little confirmation biased schools where we just all just say what we think and we all double click on and go yeah, yeah, that thing, that thing.
How do we create a culture where which you're doing through your work, through your book, how do you actually do that in your life? Because I think we like to be around people who agree with us.
I don't even know if you realize it, but as you was talking, you refer to you refer to that stuff as little Yeah, and that's exactly what it is.
It's small.
That's why it's literally called why small talk sucks you. Macro conversations are big conversations that you can have with anybody. Like when you put yourself in those small boxes, right when you confine yourself to.
Just speaking with the people that you agree with, when.
You confine yourself to just being in those echo chambers, those rooms are so small they just seem big because of social media.
But that's not how the world works.
Yo, There's really there's really not too many people that are going to see the world exactly the way you see it, So that can't be true. All of y'all are aligned to each other because y'all just love the community of each other. Y'all are really a bunch of people who need, you know, support from each other. And y'all want to have a friend group just like all humans do. So y'all are all just going along to
get along with each other. So y'all make this imaginary role book, this imaginary playbook, and y'all have this imaginary rhetoric that everybody has to say. And if you don't see things like this, if you don't say things like this, then you can't be in this club no more. This club is this big, like that club is so so
so so small. So in order to just like understand that you live in a world that you are going to disagree with people, Like I said earlier, I can think you're right, but still not necessarily agree with you. I can understand where you're coming from, but still think you're wrong. Like I don't understand why we just can't sit down and have more conversations with people and then realize this surface that I saw this individual or this perception of this individual that I had in my head.
If you sit down and actually have a conversation with them and listen to the whole totality of everything that they may be saying or experience, you'll never be able to experience the whole totality of a person, but you'll get closer to what you thought. If you just sit down and have a conversation with them, you'll realize, like, Oh, what they're saying isn't necessarily that bad, or oh, I
understand why they see things that way. I disagree with them, but I understand it and I respect they're right to think that. We spend so much time trying to change people's minds because we're trying to make ourselves comfortable. We talk about all of this growth that we want to have as humans, and we talk about how, you know, and we like being uncomfortable because when we're uncomfortable.
It's making us grow. We know that we're evolving.
We really don't like growing, and we really don't like being uncomfortable. We get to a certain point, and we all need to admit this. We get to a certain point where we're very comfortable and we don't want anything disrupting this comfort so to have new conversations and to talk to people that we may not necessarily agree with. Oh man, that scares us to death. That scares us to death. But I would say you should be more
afraid of not growing. You should be more afraid of thinking that I've gotten to a certain point and I'm fine and cool here. The world is a beautiful place, Jay, Humans are beautiful people, Like, why would you not want to experience everything that God created? Because a lot of these things that we've learned necessarily of God. It's just the things that we've picked up in this world. Some people have picked up things that are different from us.
But sometimes when you sit down and you listen to that person and that person shares their experiences, or that person you know, tells you what they've been through that's gotten them to that you know point in life, it can be eye opening. And it's been very eye opening for me throughout my life. Like my best relationships in life have come through me having conversations with people that I necessarily that I that I didn't have anything in
common with. One of the greatest, you know, gifts my mother ever gave me.
She don't see she was.
An English teacher growing up in South Carolina. Like when I was going up in South Carolina, and she told me read things that don't pertain to you. So I'm in the library, I'm reading everything from UFOs, you know, Sasquash to Judy Bloom and Beverly clearly to the point where I'm like, this woman, Judy Bloom is a phenomenal storyteller. So I love Judy Bloom the same way I love Scarface, the same way I love jay Z, the same way I love ghost Face. She's that love storytelling to me.
And now because of that love of somebody like Judy Bloom and me expressing that she's somebody I actually call a friend, she's actually somebody that I, you know, have gone down the floorida, you know, kicked it with her and her husband, George, me and my wife, Like I've been to her bookstore, in her movie theater, like we were just in together in New York a couple of weeks ago. Like that that comes from being open to other people, other experiences and just listening to each other.
And that's really what you know, get at us. A die line, while small talk sucks, is really all about It's really about us, you know, getting to listen to each other. That's why I end every chapter by saying, let's discuss, because I want us to have conversations.
I'm opening up conversation.
I don't want you just to talk to the people that you agree with every day, tear down the walls of that echo chain. Being realized how big the world is. The world is infinite. That's what I want people to get. You know, you know from this from this book.
Yeah, just the way you reacted to that, I could know how deep the topic is for you. It took me a second, but when you said O the way I said it was little, and then you were like, oh, it's actually small talk, like it applies. That showed me just how deep this is running for your veins because
you picked up on that. It's like, yeah, I was saying, Yeah, these little groups and these little echo chambers and these little kind of like you know, text threads or message threads, whatever we have done, which is important, just get smaller and smaller and smaller. What's last question, what's the hardest, hardest conversation you've had to have to do a kid so far? So far or the most honest conversation. That's say, not hardest, the most honest conversation.
Oh man, that's listen.
I got a fifteen year old, an eight year old, a five year old, and a two year old, all girls, so I.
Haven't had it yet. They're all hard.
I think they're all difficult, Okay, every single one, especially you know, my fifteen year old because she's a sophomore in high school now, and you know, they're dealing with things that we never even thought of dealing with, like literally, like you know, and we're dealing with adults that we
never thought of dealing with. And these kids are smart, Like you know, I remember during COVID, my daughter came to me and she came to me and my wife and she was like she was in tears, and she was just like, ya, I'm overwhelmed, Like I'm overwhelmed, Like this is driving me crazy. You know, my grades is slipping. I'm like, I gave her a hug. I'm like, we are in an unprecedented time right now, Like we're literally at home. I'm at home doing work. You're doing pottery
class on the kitchen floor. Do you think I give a damn if your grades slip? At a moment like this, like, I don't care about any of that, But what made me proud in that moment was she had the language because you know, she's she's she's been the therapy. Not because anything's necessarily wrong. I'm just I'm just realizing that we're in an unprecedented time. Like they these kids deal with things that we don't have to deal with. So
I want them. I want her to have the tools and the language early because I'm just the person still going through it myself. Her mom is a person still going through it herselves. So I want her to sit down and you know, talk to experts. So but just the fact she had the language. So when you say difficult conversations, honestly, the difficult conversations come from.
Me having to check my ego as a parent because I'm forty.
Five and I believe this little fifteen year old doesn't know anything yet she knows a whole lot and she can. She's teaching me, you know, a whole lot. Like there's some things that change, there's some things that stay the same in this world, but there's a whole lot that has changed. And I think that you know, we we we sometimes are too stubborn to realize that. And so, yeah, I guess they answer your question. Every day is a difficult conversation. She got four girls. Every day is a
difficult conversation. Like, I'm dealing with a different set of emotions every single day. The biggest thing for me is to stay centered, insane, and you know, not let my emotions.
Get the best of me.
Like, that's one of the biggest conversations me and my wife constantly have, Like we get together in our little prayer circles and huddle together like we are doing the best we can.
I literally touch so funny I told you this yesterday.
I was like, yo, you know, we've been together twenty six years and we've experienced so many different levels of life together. And so what I said to her, I was like, yo, the other we also realized, twenty six years go by fast. So regardless of how scretched out we get because of these children, let's enjoy the moment. Like literally, let's just enjoy the moment. We are doing the best we can. There is no manual that comes
with this. You don't want to take everything you learn from your parents because you realize they didn't have all of the proper tools, and they didn't necessarily, you know, instill the right things in us, at least from a man's perspective. My mom, I felt was phenomenal, at least from a mass perspective. You know, I didn't have that. So we're just all doing the best we can. So let's just give each other some grace. Man and like and enjoyed his ride called Adulthood.
Absolutely every one the book, it's called Get Honest or Dieline. You can get it right now. Why small talk sucks? Sell them and the God this is the book that I want you to get. Discuss it with your friends
that sect it, allow it to infuse into reality. I've been really really happy that his books out because I spent last Christmas in London, which is what I usually do, and I started to find that even friends I've had for a couple of decades, I found that we were becoming less and less honest with each other, and I
was feeling really disconnected. When I was back at Christmas and I was trying to figure out what it was, I was like, wait, a minute, is it because I left eight years ago and I've been living in the States. Is it because of this? Is this, and I realized it was honesty, and so I started to create conversations
in my friends grew that were uncomfortable. And when I saw that you'd written this book, I was so moved by it because I was like, that was the exact issue that I felt I was moving further away from the people I was closest to because we were all now just playing a role, and everyone's playing their part. But there was no longer a get honest conversation. It
was all small talk. And so I really hope that this conversation inspires people to get closer to the people you already think you're close to, right, and understand the people that you're far away from.
That's right.
And so the book is called get Honest or Die Lying, Why small talk sucks? Right, can grab it right now. We'll put it in the comments and the link in the caption. Charlamagne, thank you so much again, man. As always, I appreciate these conversations.
I appreciate you time.
Man.
We always have macro conversations on air off air, and I mean, just what you've built with this platform on purpose, it is so necessary, man, Like you know, everybody's having these conversations about mindfulness and you know, wellness, and we're all just trying to be the best versions of ourselves. Something like this didn't exist five years ago, Like those conversations that people are having now weren't necessarily as loud as they were, you know, as loud five years ago
as they are now. And your platform on purpose is a big, big, big, huge part of that. So thank you for your service, brother, Thank you. I appreciate you, absolutely, thank you.
If this is the year that you're trying to get creative, you're trying to build more, I need you to listen to this episode with Rick Rubin on how to break into your most creative self, how to use unconventional methods that lead to success, and the secret to genuinely loving what you do. If you're trying to find your passion and your lane, Rick Rubin's episode is the one for you.
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