EMMA WATSON EXCLUSIVE: The Story She Has Not Shared Until Now

I think it's because I wanted to be able to have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for and so I called Nooper and said, I think I just reached out to Jay to see if you would let me come into this podcast on Monday. And she was like, I've been waiting for this. I wondered when you would do this. I was like, how did you know I was going to do it. She's like, I don't know. I just felt like this was coming. So here I am, and

you said yes, and the timing worked. I contacted you last week and it's Monday, and so.

already been a gift. And so the opportunity to actually sit with you and to talk about these things and have this space to have a conversation that you feel you haven't had before means the world to me, and so thank you for trusting me, and I look forward to getting to know you so much better. But let's dive in. I wanted I wanted to start by asking you, like, you said something there that was really beautiful because you

stopped for a moment. Then you said, it's easier to be honest, and I was like, I wanted to understand what that meant to you and how that feels.

think three steps ahead of how everything that I would say would be could negatively impact the film that I was trying to do justice to and do service to and make sure that people understood what the director had intended. And I felt this enormous sense of responsibility all the time to honor so many people's work that put to gather something like a film or you know, even to

some degree. I just did a fragrance with Prada and it's the first perfume bottle that you can like refill, And I don't know, I take my job seriously, I guess, and so interviews to me felt a lot like chess, and it required so much energy, and I think, what's nice about the way that I'm showing up today is I'm just showing up for myself and for once, I actually I'm not here to speak on behalf of anyone else or anything else other than myself, which is unusual.

more light on this. I don't think it's always as insidious or as dark as people may think it is. But there's just it's a job and it's work, and there's results that matter the right one hundred percent.

obsessed with this recently. I've been looking at, Okay, what is written into the form of something like Twitter or Instagram or TikTok, or a podcast versus or a photograph versus a film versus a piece of writing, And it's really interesting to see what a different medium or different form allows or doesn't allow, and or like actually creates or encourages. I've never done a podcast before, but I love I think what I love about it is the

is the intimacy of it. It's like, I feel like people listen to podcasts when they're like I certainly do anyway, Like first thing in the morning, when I'm taking my shower or I'm going on my walk or I'm making my breakfast. It's really like personal, intimate time. And I think the long form version of these kinds of conversations allows for such a different kind of discussion that I don't think was possible before.

feel you. This is awful. It sucks, which was kind of nice in a way, but yeah, totally do you need a left It's like, actually yes, but I think again, it's funny, like I went from when you work on movies, I don't know if people know this, but like they literally will not ensure you to drive yourself to work. I've asked so many times, you have to be driven.

You have to be driven. It's like not a choice, and especially because they need you there, you know, down to the minute, basically depending on what they have going on. And so I went from basically only driving myself on week ordering holiday and then when I became student, driving myself all the time. And yeah, I did not have the experience or skills clearly which I now will and

and do. But I think again, this was one of these like awkward transitions I made from kind of living this like very very structured life to living a life where I was like, Okay, I guess I'm going to get myself to this place and I'm going to like do this thing that I've basically not done since I

was ten years old. So it's been a discovery and a journey that's been Yeah, I guess humbling because on a movie SAT I'm able to do all of these like extremely complex things stunts saying dance like do this thing, do that whatever, and I'm like, yep, don't worry about it, guys,

no worries. I've got you. And then I get home and I'm like Okay, Emma, you teom money able to remember keys, you get money, able to like keep yourself at thirty miles an hour in a thirty mins, I'll speed limit, like you don't seem able to do some pretty like basic life things. And it was definitely kind of Yeah. I had days where I just wanted to turn around to people and be like I used to be good at things. Okay, I used to be really good at things. And I know it doesn't look like

that right now, but I used to. I can do things normally. So yeah, it's been it's been humbling.

really really appreciate it. But no, I think, you know, I think something I've been realizing is we most of us live in a state of like, I'm just trying to kind of figure it out and keep it together, and the only thing that is different between us is people's willingness to be honest about that, the degree to which they can admit to actually I'm just like scrabbling around trying to keep the reasons together versus oh yeah, I know, everything's amazing and everything's incredible and I'm having

the best day ever and aren't you? And you know so I do love the people who are just willing to be like, yeah, it's it's not going so well today, I'm like, very amazing. What a good starting point? Like, I don't know, failure as a starting point feels like I feel like attempting things is so compelling, and of course success is wonderful, But I love to see people who are like, I'm really bad at this, but I'm going to try. I love you. That's everything to me.

be like, hmm, like there are some gats here and here's what I know now. And I think people's I agree with you. I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to learn in public and continuing to learn. I mean, I think that's one of the reasons why I have gone back to school and why I continue to do it is because I want to make sure that I have things to say that are worth saying. And I think you can only do that if you take a minute sometimes and.

what happened to thinking about the utopia? What happened to like planning for the best case scenario? Like where where did we lose? Yeah? Vision, excitement, imagination, possibility. So I think it's been. Yeah, it's been wonderful to be around young people and just to sit there and listen. Yeah, do you ever I mean, you clearly read so much. Do you have to take yourself away to do it? In order to be able to do it? Do you

have to call it an off time? Like, how are you still managing to study and learn because that seems like it's important to you.

move forward. And sometimes I think when we feel stuck, or when we think things are not moving or they're not progressing, we may be a signed to say, well, pause and go deeper for a second, or pause and go inward for a second. And so to me, hearing that from you. I find that and I'm I definitely fail at this all the time. There are so many times I'm trying to push more forward than I've gone deep.

And so whenever I notice there myself and I notice that I'm just kind of trying everything and nothing is working, it's actually just the universe and self saying to me, go read, go study. And so I've found that I've had to really carve out time to make time to do what I love, which is to read and study. But I've found that I'm someone who doesn't love thirty minutes a day. I'm not that kind of a reader. I'm someone who needs to read for three or four hours,

if not more. And so I found that carving out deep, immersive time is more important to me than this kind of mechanical thirty forty minutes a day, which is great for you if that works for you as a habit, it doesn't for me because I'm a bit of an extremist and I just need to spend a whole weekend reading, yeah, as opposed to I don't need to read every day.

So I'll try, and I try once a month on a weekend to just absorb into a subject that I love, and I'll take a course, I'll go to a class, I'll watch a Ted talk online, I'll read as many books as I can, and I try and immerse myself that way. What's your learning stuff?

I think, yeah, what you said resonates. I think I often have to remind myself that it's not about speedily getting somewhere. It's just not the point. Things are supposed to happen with a certain timing. And so, yeah, resonates, And to your point, I cannot just sit for thirty minutes and look at something I need. I need kind of like a week on holiday, and then I'll start to deeply get into something and I need quiet and I hyper focus and I that's when I you know,

I love it, but I can't. I can't do a little itty bitty bits.

think that was a big moment. I think it was more there was an omission that there was things that were missing as opposed to I had said something wrong. I just needed I just needed to fill in more gaps. And so that was when I started, or that was actually in the middle. I had a feminist book club called the Art Chared Sheelf, and so that was part

of those conversations. But it was a good moment for me to learn that feeling uncomfortable sometimes is good. I think we have an alarm system that goes off, which is I'm uncomfortable. This feels uncomfortable, so something bad must be happening, and I must leave as soon as possible. And actually, I think that was when I started to learn, Oh, actually me being uncomfortable in a space might be a good sign because it might mean I'm about to learn something.

And I want to attribute this. That was Mara Ala Rasai who who helped me understand that and was a very very valuable teaching So now when I'm in a space and listening to things and I feel uncomfortable, I don't think it means I need to bolt or something bad's happening. Yeah, maybe something really good it's about to happen.

it's not true, it's that it's not complete. Yes, And mostly when we see people say things or share ideas, it's very rare to have anyone ever share a complete idea because that means they would have had to think about it from every single vantage point, which is not even humanly possible.

we're in conversation And if it's the right person, you can see that a good intention is there, then maybe we can kind of do it in a way that doesn't need to be Obviously, there's important time and place for holding people accountable, but maybe I don't know, attributing like great, we're all going to help each other, kind of pad this out, fill this out.

Should I just not take the time to do this, because sometimes I will, really I care about doing it kindly and compassionately, and it's very rare for me to attribute bad intent to anyone. But you know, sometimes it does fall on deaf ears and you're like that text message took me like forty minutes, like to word perfectly or that voice note or whatever. And you're like, is

this making a difference? Like am I getting through to any is transformative justice?

kind of have to compensate in some other ways. And in the same way that my position in life and fame has given me this extraordinary power, it's also given

me a lot of responsibility. And these things often have these kind of I don't know when or why it started, but I think I've always whoever it was that was suffering in the room, I was always the most aware of them, and I think that has formed a lot of why I could act. It was almost like I was kind of sucking all of this in and then I needed to let it out somewhere or unleash it somewhere. And I remember when my parents saw me on stage for the first time. Afterwards, they were just like, where

did that come from? You don't have any of these experiences. I recorded a song for my twelfth birthday. My mum bought me a day in a recording studio, and I sing Natalie and really torn, like I've had my heartbroken fifty thousand times, you know, Like I've been married and divorced and whatever, and I'm twelve. I've never had a boyfriend and I don't know anything about love.

I'm pretty sure that's probably where it That's where it started. Yeah. And then I guess just being aware of other people who might feel the way I did, which is like who else in here doesn't feel like they quite fit?

same time, I've always seen it as a strength. Yes, And it's something that has served me well in my marriage, it served me well in my relationships. And at the same time, it has certain consequences that make you different or make you process things differently. And so yeah, And I remember one thing you shared with me that I was reading it. You said, I used to spend my weekdays with Mum and my weekends with dad, and you

said it almost felt like you were changing costumes sometimes. Yes, and they're all like this two lives kind of Yes, Yes, And I feel that's so relatable. I feel like so many people can relate to that, whether whether their family

was more traditional or wasn't. I think every child has had this feeling of not fitting in quite and knowing which life they're meant to lead, and that feels like it's kind of played into yours.

not quite We're not quite like and I think it does it makes you. It made me a slightly serious child because I was like, had that consciousness, and then when I would go and spend the weekend with my dad, it was like a very different set of rules, very

different situation. And so you do you kind of like and I think everyone can relate to this to an extent that it's not that you are like wanting to become different people, but it's there are different expectations of you in different places that you understand that you need to fill. And so I think some of that split then became I was like, Okay, wow, you know my parents have very different views on different things. And the hard part of that was that no one gave me

any easy answers. It meant I had to form all of my own opinions myself because there was no consensus, and it made me a critical thinker for sure, because and so that was amazing and also really like, gosh, okay, I need to decide what I think is important in life and what my opinions are. No one's handing me this.

didn't want that to be my life. I didn't want pretend to be my real life.

a path. It's really beautiful when you do it, but it's really hard in the beginning because it just feels like there are two parts. And I wanted to talk about how much that's impacted you know, your work, and you said there, you said that one thing you mentioned that really stood out to me was you felt that acting was in some way escaping that kind of which

version I have to be. And I think so much of what we do for work, or so much of what we pursue as humans, is based on something we're trying to build, create, maybe escape from, maybe to reveal something, And I think we haven't often looked at work that way. Like sometimes we choose a career because we know it will make our parents happy and so we're living a pattern. Or sometimes you choose something because it breaks the pattern that you were growing up in. And it's fascinating to

me to look at that. And for you, you were acting in school plays since you were a young girl, and was acting always something you were going to do or do you feel like it was this cross section of what was happening in your personal life that actually made

that feel like the direction you would choose.

it does feel like a moment outside of time. And I remember the exhilaration of living the kind of ups and downs of this poem. And maybe because there wasn't space to have conversations or express myself at that time in the way that I needed to, I did it through performance. And I also did it as a way of getting to feel free for a moment of what I was like the discomfort of that time of not quite knowing who I was or how to be in the world. And as I've become more healed and whole

and more comfortable being myself. It's been interesting to ask myself do you still need acting? Do you still need to act? Like? Why what are you doing that for? And like the kind of it used to feel like, almost like a compulsion that I needed to do it. And what's really interesting now is I don't feel quite

that kind of urgency of needing to do it. And I wonder if it's because actually I have spaces where I can now take some of those feelings and talk about some of the things I don't think I had space to voice get out doing it on camera in one of thousands of people.

I realized I remember by Bath's deathbed, by her graveside when we shot those films, like normally, there are like these painful memories that I would use for those moments, and I realized I was like, I don't know if this is super great for me actually to keep revisiting these or if I want to use these as my tools. And I don't think that means I'll never come back to acting. I think it just meant I was like, hmm, I wonder if there's a different way to do this.

I think the second thing was to be really honest. I was coming to those sets with an expectation that

I think I had developed on Harry Potter, which was that we were the people I worked with were going to be my family, and that we were going to be lifelong friends. I came to work looking for friendship, and that was a very painful experience for me outside of Harry Potter and in Hollywood, like bone breakingly painful, because most people don't come to those environments looking for friendships. They're looking for this is my chance, this is my role,

this is what I went out of it. I'm focused, this is my job, this is my career, like let go. And I was not of that mindset, and so I found I found the rejection really painful, the friendship rejection.

and competition and whatever else it was, that's only proof that you were vibrating in a way that didn't want to be pulled down into that.

it could be a movie, it could be promoting. I just was obsessed with excellence and doing everything, giving my all to everything and doing it to the best of my ability. And unless you have the right people around you that can hold that kind of level of commitment, you're going to get smashed up. You're just going to

get crushed. And so I think now it's just a case of me being like, Okay, I know that for me to do anything, I have to have people in the room that care about me more than whatever the product is or whatever the final product is. And if that isn't the case, I cannot be there because I'm just someone who like gives it all is how I'm built.

And I think understanding that makeup of myself and not punishing myself for that, but just knowing it needs certain kinds of conditions is how I've come to hopefully not keep doing it forever and probably every day, but accepting myself.

Grammy or whatever it is. And I can't imagine being a young person like I'm thirty seven now and it's you process ideas like that differently. Yeah, but if you're in your teens or even twenties, there's and maybe even thirties, but you process those statements with so much gravitas, especially when it's someone of influence and power saying it to you. And yeah, like being surrounded by people who really believe in you and your longevity and your art versus. But that's hard to find.

balance is almost impossible. It's so all or nothing, it's so all encompassing, especially if you're in a lead role.

You kind of go through these you know, working six days a week, fourteen to sixteen hour days, and then you're just kind of dropped off at the end of it, and maybe you'll have a two or three month gap and then there's just kind of like nothing, and so you're like riding this like incredible peak of like adrenaline and cortisol and then you just get like dropped off the edge and they're like, Okay, wait, now I have to be a functioning human again, and I have to

like figure out how to be a person in the real world. And I think some of those extremes then force an actor to either decide, well, I'm going to back to back it, so I'm going to basically go from one movie to the next and that's going to be my full life. Or you have to navigate these huge impacts on your nervous system that you need a

system and a support system to help you navigate. And I think it's why addiction and mental illness in my profession, and then a lot of high stress, high profile professions is so commonplace because you're trying to balance out these enormous chemical ups and downs.

anxious and everyone's nervous, and that's the real experience. And people are almost waiting to leave. Yes, and some people do the red carpet and leave immediately, But but what's going on there? Like walk us through? Like I mean, for people who may not.

like two things going on. One you're like navigating this like sensory overload. That's like telling you, oh my god, something is really wrong where you are you Yeah, so you're trying to navigate. Okay, something feels wrong, but I need to also simultaneously make it seem as though I am the most graceful and the most calm I've ever been in my whole life. And I need to like pose for this person. And there's fifty different cameras and I need to make sure that I look perfectly into

each and every one. And I probably will have had four different notes from the stylist about how I'm supposed to stand and what I need to do for the dress, and then I've got like twenty five different talking points

from the movie of like what I need to get across and also avoid saying or talking about, and so like you need to be thinking about that, and the juggles crazy, and then I think everyone is in this like kind of jumped up state, and so like trying to have a normal conversation with anyone is basically impossible because you feel like an insane person. And so these are not environments in which you like have a nice

chat with someone. Really. I mean maybe if you're really lucky you've worked with someone for a long time and you've established and trust. But I think that was the other thing that was like really difficult about movies and what like I kind of laugh at well, not in a mean way, but like, you know, you always get asked when you're like promoting these big films like so do you guys hang out on set? And like do you guys hang out? And like are you all friends?

And everyone's sort of like nods enthusiastically, But the truth is, no one has seen each other outside of work, like very very very rarely, mostly because the schedule is insane. Everyone's so tired that when you get any time off, you're going straight back to your hotel room to try to like claw in any piece of rest that you possibly can, and like, I don't know, like it, friendships require time and trust and presence and those things like

very rarely come about. They can, and they like do occasionally, but it's more of a more of a you know, solar eclipse than an everyday situation. So yeah, but you have to pretend. I think that's the part that starts to feel icky after a while, is that you have to pretend that you're all best friends and what's so sad. And I know this isn't just the case for me, but like I think people wish they were I think we wish we did have those real connections and we

did have that real support. And so having to pretend that something exists that you actually really want but don't have is like it's like that pretty grainy in the wound, you know. It's like it's pretty like tough pill to swallow, to have to act out something that you wish were real but isn't real. Yeah, And I think that's the part that starts to kind of yeah, I can speak for myself, but those are definitely the moments for have been like this feels dark, like anyone else like this feels dark.

but you're not hanging out as the whole crew. It's it's very unlikely, and it is that reality check of no, but this is also just work. Yeah, and their character stories are not their personal stories, and it doesn't And that's why I wanted to go back. You mentioned their you talked about how Harry Potter had a family feel, and I wanted to ask you how did that come about in the first what was where did the auditions come from? Like, how did that become a part of your life?

the moment that they said they mentioned the audition. I remember I brought I think maybe like seven different beanie babies with me along and like all these different like lucky talismans, and I loved the world and the book so much. My dad had been reading them to me before bed when I would spend the weekends with him, and on long car journeys, we'd often drive back and

forwards to France, and that's how the time would be passed. And so I was just like, loved the world, loved Hermione. And for me, it wasn't so much about acting so much as it was that, like I just the books meant so much to me personally.

I will forever be in her debt. She somehow knew that me feeling part of the ordinary world and feeling I had a place in it and that I belonged outside of those films was going to be crucial.

times for pictures and then I'll get stopped once. And it was really beautiful because we'd spent a day together and that person had been stopped a hundred times, and then they've been stopped a couple of times. And then they said something to me. They said, Jay, you're really lucky, And I said, what do you mean? And and I thought they were going to say because I'm anomus to

some degree, but they didn't. He said to me, he goes, Jay, You're really lucky, because he goes when people stop me, they stop me for who I play to be and when they stop you, they stop you for who you are. And it was really encouraging words from some of that respect a lot, and I was like, wow, like I never thought about it like that. I just I just

it hadn't hit me how different it was. And because I think you just see fame or success or whatever, it is this one big bubble of stuff, especially when you're not that close to it, you don't know too much about it. And it was that conversation that made me even be even more personal with everyone that I ever spoke to, because they'd always have a personal story or And that's not to say that isn't true for

music and for acting. Of course there is. I don't want to take away from no, no, And I'm not

saying that as an egotistical statement. I'm saying it as like, how hard it is for an individual to go through that, Yes, and to be disassociated from themselves. Yes, because that role could be a part of you, It could be an expression of you, It was a part of your life at a certain period of time, But of course it isn't you. Yes, But does that make any sense?

and that I had said. It felt like a very significant transition for me because for the first time I felt like I could look someone in the eye and receive and accept something that they were saying, because I felt like it actually had something to do with me, and I wasn't just kind of a like a cuss c stodian of something sacred, which I did take very seriously and I still do. But it had been a

direct transmission from me. And I think that's why writing has become so important to me, is because it's a way that I can say things directly and that feels really meaningful.

or an accountant or a doctor or a like that. Yes, that's a part of us, and it's a role we play in society, and it of course brings significance and value and worth and all of these wonderful things, but I think everyone wants to be something beyond that, and no one wants to be that in their home, and no one wants to be that with their friends, and no one no one wants and me included, by the way, It's like I try, and me and my one of

my friends is a well known stand up comic. We always joke about how he hates to be asked to tell jokes on command. And I try with my friends to not say smart, to say thoughtful, revolatory things. Because of my friends, I just want to be Like I don't want to have to coach someone's marriage or solve

their thing. I don't want to do that, Like I just want to be and and so even for someone who loves who is doing direct transmission a lot more of the time, even then there's a feeling of, well, I don't want to say anything profound in this conversation.

heavy to carry. Like I kind of was like, I don't even know if I can, if I can be that bitch anymore. Like I like, you know, I went on a date like two years ago, and like it was the best confession ever. But I was like messaging this person they were like Emma, and he was like, can I just say something like Emma, Watson makes me anxious? And I was like, Watson makes me anxious too, on the same page, like I get it, Like I can't

even be her. I don't know how to be her live up to what I look like on the cover of a magazine. I don't look like that. I can't. I don't know. I don't even know how to touch what that person's become. It's kind of a funny realization

at some point where it's like I need to step off this thing because I just once you've I don't know.

There's such a glamorization that comes hand in hand with being a public famous person, especially if you're a woman, Like I feel so envious of my male co stars who can just put on a T shirt and show up without like this ps like whole rigmarole of kind of becoming acceptable enough to be on camera and ah, like kudos to Pamela Anderson recently and just like doing the thing, because it's like the amount of courage it will have taken to do that, Like I cannot even

begin to express to you, it's wild. The expectations are insane, it's impossible.

But that seems really hard, Yes, because yes, learning it was hard enough, and then to unlearn it when it's linked to your work, your finances, your work, your friendship, community connection, all of the where you live, how do you even begin to unlearn? Being Emma Watson, it's noted ball.

the podcast. But tied into that, there's also like the very real some people will be wanting you to reference their new book or like promote something for them or whatever, and like navigating that so many of these threads are entwined. Does it ever start to feel like, wow, this is a lot people ask me all the time. Do you ever wonder why people want to hang out with you or be your friend or whatever? And does that ever get complicated for you?

invited to a bachelor party. I can't believe it, but that that kind of feel like, I don't get invited to crazy parties, and I'm grateful for that. I don't know, it's not really a part of my life unless it's a spiritual party and then I'm all game. But there isn't that, And so sometimes I think it's a good my direct transmission is a good protective mechanism because I don't really get asked to come to things. But then at the same time, it takes me to get to

know someone deeply. Like I just traveled with a friend to Greece and we played and I don't think they were anticipating this, but we played three nights of poker from midnight to seven am and it was amazing and I loved it and I had the best time. And I don't think they expected me to do that. They expect me to get to bed early. But I was on vacation and I was like, I'm a game, yeah exactly, and I'm one. So I was like, you know, I'll take it. And I'm very competitive in that way, and

I enjoy it. And so I think what it is for me is I think there's a big thing for me has been from I grew up as part of a big community in London, yeah, and the big spiritual community that I became a part of when I was young.

And I think that what I've found is it's very difficult to discern for people externally and even for people in that community as to how close they were to me right, And so there are some people that assume that because we sat in a class together and there were two hundred people in the class, but now that their opinion on me or that their relationship with me is close, when in actuality, I've never had a one to one conversation with that person, and so now their

opinion matters to the outside world, it matters to the media, it matters to whatever. But I actually don't know that person and they don't really know me. It's just so that we went to the same congregation in that same year, which has lots thousands of people in it, and so I struggle with that. And then I also struggle with people coming up to me and saying, oh, Jay, I've known you for twenty years and you know, like from back in the day of the Temple. But I'm like,

we didn't, like, we didn't ever have a conversation. And I still have all my best friends from that community that are still my closest friends. Yeah, and they also feel the same way because they see it. And so I think I find that very difficult. True is hard to navigate because it's not that I don't have positive feelings towards people or the community or anything I do. But I struggle with people feeling they know me when they never did, right, but they've almost created a story

within their mind that they really knew me well. And because it was a big community. This isn't a group of school friends or something which I'm still really close with. It's more of this expanded community which you were just visible in, right, not even audible or if that makes any sense, No.

to it. Yeah, talk to me. You've referenced it a couple of times in conversations you've had, Like, what does it feel like when you're having a normal conversation and someone goes, wait a minute, you're yeah, Hermione Granger, Emma Watson, you know, a list goes on.

change can be kind of a jarring experience. I think what's nice is at the very least like dating for everyone is is basically a complete disaster and free for all, So like, I feel like I'm in good company in that sense. But I think it's funny. Occasionally people will apologize to me for the fact they've not seen my films, and I will be like, please don't apologize. That is bliss to me. Like music, to my ears that like, you're not going to constantly be navigating and me also

navigating with you. This projection of me or this Emma Watson avatar person will not be this ghost in the room. So that's happened a few times where people have been like, I'm really sorry, please apologize, I'm so ry, I'm so incredibly relieved, and then the box later on, Yeah, I hope not. I mean, I guess, like I want people to appreciate my work, but I think knowing you don't have to navigate that extra like degree of weirdness is helpful relief.

convey like how weird it is and how surreal sometimes that I sometimes be like, can I just, like weed do this thing I wrote because I think it's going to shortcut you somewhere. And so that's actually been incredibly helpful and I'm I'm so glad I went and did this this Creative Writing masters and have spent more time writing about my experiences because sometimes I can't even articulate it to myself, Like how how are you supposed to explain to me? Does someone else you can't really even

understand for yourself. So I think writing creative writing making art has been the best therapy I've ever done, because it's helped me get clarity and also just being able to laugh at myself and laugh at the situation. I think one on one therapy can be amazing, but like there is a kind of intensity and a seriousness to

that that maybe when you're writing something down. And when I wrote the Player, I wrote it for my friends and family, and I was able to kind of be more my bring more of myself to the picture in a way, which is someone who's like this is just nuts, Like I just can't, Like I can't sometimes I just genuinely cannot believe that my life is my life, and I make the place I can put that.

in as my first year piece of work. And yeah,

yeah it got a distinction. It actually did not that that was the point, but it kind of wasn't the point. But I think the coolest thing was was, like I read it from my roommate, for example, he's believing me for seven years, and he was like, we alway stop sorselves as well. He's like, is this actually how you feel?

Like do you actually feel this? And I was like, yeah, I wouldn't have written it if I didn't, And he was like, I had no idea that this was how you felt, And this is someone I live with and so for me, who I perceived myself to be this like massive open book, and actually I realized I was like, Wow, I think I'm doing a good job of bringing the people that I love along with me on what this feels like. And actually I'm not saying nearly enough or explaining it in a way where it makes sense. And

so even my parents were just like, I couldn't believe it. Really, yeah, I'm.

for parts of themselves and not all of themselves. And I really believe it would be such a service to everyone to share it one day, in however way you decide to, because honestly, I was gripped, I was completely

captivated I couldn't put it down. I feel like I'm going to read it again and again and again. It's not something that I think you read once. Not only are you a brilliant writer, but it is so true and honest and for everyone who's listening and watching. I think the from it for me is that your therapy could turn into something creative. That when you shared that with me when we were speaking on the phone, I

was so in awe of that. That therapy in one to one setting or in whatever way of healing you believe in, if it turns into something you have to put together to communicate to others, that's the revelation. Like the revelation is in that process, not in the listening, telling, share, speaking. That's great and that's a part of it, but if you can go one step ahead.

days as I wrote this. But trust me, like whatever you think people know about you, or they know about your life or how you feel about it, they don't. And they need you to write poems, write songs, make pictures, write plays. And you don't need to be someone with the title of an artist to be able to do that. You really don't. And in fact, I have to write on my mirror. I haven't written on my door I am an artist because I don't think anyone feels like

they deserve that title. I've been making films and writing and making arts since I was nine years old, and I don't feel like I deserve that title, and I have to work at it all the time to feel like I have anything that's worthwhile saying. I really understand the struggle. I really really do. But there is something about doing it and like having a physical thing, because I think so many of these thoughts and feelings live in our heads and it's not a great place for

them to live. They need to come out somewhere, and once you can put them somewhere, then you're free being understood or feeling like you're understood. By the people around you has got to be the best feeling in the world. And I think it's what we're looking for when we do so many things, but often that's not the way

to find it. And I just, god, yeah, if I honestly I want to go to every person in the street and be like, you need to write a one person show about your life and then perform it for your friends and family, or like you need to like, you know, paint the thing, write the song, like, just do it, because it's kind of one of the best most meaningful things I've done. Yeah, trying to make sense of sense of it all.

for people that you love. Like That's one I guess, like I had the extraordinary experience of making things for like the world basically from such a young age, and I never made anything that I didn't feel like needed to be shared publicly. And I remember when I made Little Women. I mean, that's such an amazing thing about Louise Maelcot is that really she wrote these stories for

her sisters. So many people's journeys and paths start because, yeah, out of love, they wrote them for just one person. There was a certain point I remember in my life where I was like, right, I'm done with university now, and now I'm going to just like focus full What I should be doing is just focusing full time on being an actress and you know, doing all of that.

And I had completely missed actually that emma, the academic emma, the student emma, the person that needs to needs to constantly be learning things facilitated my ability to be a famous person and in Hollywood, and that without her I actually couldn't do it. I needed, I need to have both,

and that when one gets stripped away. And like, even as I and explore this in the player as well, it's like, even as I have returned to some form of normalcy, ordinary life, whatever that looks like to me now, like I also can't kill her off completely, you know, my public person, there's parts of me that like still does need those outlets and to do those things too,

And I'm figuring out what those are. But I think that's what's so complicated about being humans, is it's yes and not either or it's we need we need to be all of ourselves so that we can do the extraordinary things that we what we want to do. Maybe it's about not leaving parts of ourselves behind, like kind of finding a way to keep threading the tapestry all of it.

almost feels like we live our life that way. It's like, Okay, I was a student at university. If I went to university, and now I have a job and I'm an employee or an art whatever it is, and labels are useful, so I'm not going to say they aren't. But what ends up happening is you start labeling phases of your life yes, which means now there isn't a yes, and

it's an either raw. So it's like I was an actress, now I'm going to be an academic and it's like, well, no, I'm an academic and an actress and whatever else you know, And I think that's what it's been for me. It's like I know that the people that know me best will say, Jay, I love you because we can talk about spirituality. We can talk about business, and we can talk about communication, media art, and I love you because we can do all those three things in one day

and I'm like, yes, I feel so seen. Yeah, if someone only said one of those things, I'd feel so limited. And what I've realized is I'm now at a place where I've given myself permission to be all of myself, even if others don't give me permission to be all of those things. Yes, because yeah, And.

do that. And I think once I kind of let go of like, okay, it matters way more that I accept myself than that I spend so much energy and time trying to force other people to see these things about me. And then paradoxically, of course, once you let go, people start getting it, which is which is funny.

we need to talk about it so much more, because I had such a not a misunderstanding, but I think I had a very limited understanding of it for a long time, which was that we see in Disney movies and in Hollywood movies, this idea that like falling in love, once it sort of happened to you, it's like irreversible, you know, like step into this pottle that you can't get out of anymore because you've fallen in love. And actually, I think falling in love might be quite easy to

do in some ways. That's sort of the easy bit. The hard part is finding someone who actually wants to be in a dance with you and be in some form of partnership with you, and things like can you argue? Well, can you be? Is the conflict that you have generative?

And can you make someone else feel safe? Like? And when I say safe, I don't mean like as of physical danger, I mean like, can you either respond to a text message quickly enough that doesn't send the other person into like a complete free fall and or not pelt them with so many that they feel completely overwhelmed and flooded. And like that kind of like compatibility and that kind of willingness to be in this like is this okay for you? Does this feel good to you?

This is how it feels for me? And like there's like that constant back and forth and that constant check in is like a game of chicken in a way of like can you find someone who's willing to be as vulnerable? Is it necessarily requires, I think, to like figure out those micro adjustments until you're sort of in some kind of dance with someone else. And that is a very different understanding that I have come to of

what love is than I have. I mean, like loving someone is so much more complex than the projections that we put on someone or even like just lusting or having some small feeling for someone else. But I just think that we have such a black and white idea about what love is supposed to be. And I wish I'd understood more before I went into battle. I do, I really really do? What do you think love is?

you kind of think it's the real thing. But then they're in a mood every night for no reason, and you're just people pleasing and trying to figure out what's going on, and you think it's all about making that person happy, and so you mold and you bend, and you, you know, sabotage parts of yourself. And I realized very

quickly that that wasn't love. And I think what's really interesting about love now is that marrying my wife, who I've been with now for twelve years and married for nine and so it's the longest time I've ever spent with anyone, and also the only person I've been with after I left the monastery, and so there's been a certain chapter of my life that I've been with her for and I really feel she's taught me more about

love for two reasons. The first is she doesn't subscribe to any of the movie Disney versions of love.

other person's not actively teaching and you're actively receiving. So it's this really strange dance between It's almost like if you're dancing, there has to be on both sides, because it's not that one person leads and the other person follows. It's the other person's kind of like should we do this? Should we try this? There's an anxiety and a humility and requesting that, and the other person gets to choose to go with it or not go and say no, we're going to go in this direction. And that's a

great dance to watch. And I feel like with my wife, she's never directly taught me, but she's challenged me in ways that if other people would ever might have left.

Because I think a lot of men go through this, at least men that I'm friends with them that I've spoken to that we want people to respect us for our success, yes, and revere us for our accomplishments. It's how men have been adored since the beginning of time for going out and getting the food or going out there and winning the battle or conquering a nation, and

that's what you were known for. And so my wife's been with me since before my career took off and I had any success, and I think as I gained success, I think my immaturity was to want her to love me for that more and she never did. She didn't do it, wow, and it drove me crazy. And she didn't do it in a rejecting way or in a in a it just didn't make a difference to her.

And it took me a long time to wrap my head around that and realize, because you know, those are the times when you could start like other people who love you for you have achieved and what you have built and all the rest of it. And I think I just have so much respect.

be willing to learn from me. But the other thing is, I think it's why I was so obsessed with the musical Hamilton and why say people have But like maybe this is it's so funny that we're on the Purpose podcast, but like, are you with someone who because obviously what you have with someone is wonderful, right, like what you two share together, But if you can be in service of a vision that you both share, or at the very least, are you willing to honor and give dignity

to the work of the other person and whatever their vision or mission is in this world, that to me seems far more sustainable than anything else, And so I guess my big hope or wish would be that I met someone who feels like what I want to do in the world. Yes, that I'm important, but they also feel that what I'm here to do is important to them too, and in some way inter sex with what they're here to do.

marry men hoping they can change them. And to me, wanting someone to never change or wanting to be able to change someone are both signs of disrespect, because I think the greatest respect you can have is to respect what this person values in this moment and how that evolves, and that's their purpose. They're offering their values and at no point that you're trying to change them. And I've talked about this often where my wife and I. I do this exercise with couples when I'm working with them,

but I've also done it in our relationship. And I ask people to rank their top three priorities in order, and people do it privately and then they share them. And so generally one person will put themselves first, their partner second, and then the kids third, and the other person will put the kids first, the partner second, and

themselves third. And the person who put themselves third is always mad at the person who put themselves first, because there's this friction of well, wait a minute, how can you not put the kids first? Or how can you not put family first? Or whatever it may be in your given situation, And the other person's like, well, if I don't put myself first, then what can I give

to you all? And that kind of displays this dichotomy and this belief we have around love means complete sacrifice, and love means self sabotage to some degree, or love means putting yourself aside, and the reality is, actually, no, my goal is to make sure that you live your purpose and greatest vision of yourself, and your purpose is

to help me do that. When we both do that, everything's poetry, and my wife practice that and she does it naturally, and it's hard to do that in a world that constantly reminds you both that sometimes the other person isn't where you are, or you know, the idea of why haven't you had kids yet? Or when are you going to be in the same country for longer than a month, or whatever they may be, because it doesn't fit into the norm of what relationships look like.

And I was thinking about that with you as well, Like you know, I know you you talked about how getting asked the question when are you getting married?

And I think the way we treat it as though, well, why haven't you, And this is something that has to happen in this certain time span and at a certain age in this kind of way. Is like the least romantic thing I can possibly think of, Like truly, like if I had tried to get married any point basically

before about a year ago, it would have been carnage. I just didn't know myself well enough yet. I didn't have a clear enough idea of what my purpose, my vision, like, how I was going to be of service. I didn't know where I really felt like I needed to be. I think I have some of those answers now, so when I meet someone, I can say, Hi, I'm emma, this is what I care about, this is where the people I love the most live, this is where it's

meaningful for me to be in the world. And then they can decide whether they can see that there's a way that I can serve what they're trying to do and they can serve what I'm trying to do. But before that they would have just got like a very mixed signal. I mean, there's some parts of me that have stayed utterly consistent, but there are some parts that like I was really still teasing out and figuring out.

And I think it's such a violence, and it's such a cruelty on people, and especially young people, I think, to make and especially women, to make them feel like they have no worth or like they haven't succeeded yet in life because they haven't forced to its culmination something that I just don't think can or should ever be forced.

It's something that like, honestly, I feel like I've had to earn, I've had to work for to be in a place where I feel like I can look someone in the eye and be able to tell them who I am and to have some idea and it will change and grow of what I want and what I'm here to do. That takes work, Like I have, like really sat with myself in a lot of discomfort and asked myself a lot of very difficult questions. To be at that point, it hasn't happened to me yet.

There's so much flexibility, there's so much allowing. It's so different at different times, Like sometimes patience looks like being by that person's side and saying nothing, and sometimes patients means being halfway across the world and not communicating, and sometimes patients looks like talking and listening, Like you know, it's patients doesn't look like one thing over a lifespan. And there are parts of my wife that have stayed exactly the same in twelve years, and there are parts

that have completely changed. And I have a choice every time that happens, to learn to love the new or not. And that's a choice I have to make and she has to make as well. And so there's so much constant choosing and cont evolving that it's very easy to just it's very easy to be like I chose them the day we got married, And people always asking me that I'm like, I don't think I even knew who my wife was married. I think about it, it was like I loved her, but I had no idea, And

that's what it should feel like. I didn't think if I was here to say, like, yeah, the wedding day was one of the best days of my life, but it's not the day I loved my wife the most. Yeah, because I didn't really even know what I was getting myself into.

that person might not continue to choose you. Yes, So, even though you've been in this relationship for twelve years, like every day, you have to choose to risk it all if you want there to be continued intimacy by continuing to tell your truth to this other person. And that seems so courageous to me, Like, in order for there to be genuine and connection and closeness you have to be willing to risk it all sometimes or like probably almost constantly, and that it seems like it takes

so much courage because we don't like change. We don't want things to change. So you also want a relationship that's alive and still living and breathing and not some like dead thing.

That's when we feel people have had big changes in their life because if you had the consistent truthfulness, the change felt more smooth and gradual, Whereas when the change came like you know, a wrecking ball, where I have this feeling and I'm just telling you it it's because I didn't tell you about all the little, the little incremental changes and sometimes you don't know it's even happening. So it's not your fault or this is not something

that you can say has to be the case. But I think that's why being more truthful and more honest, more regularly and consistently allows for the change to feel more gradual. It's almost like going back to your dance analogy, like if you're about to throw someone up in the air and catch them. Yes, there has to have been a touch or a preparation before someone just grabs hold of you and throws you in the air. And it's like, well,

I would have liked to warning, yes. And that's why your analogy is so good, because it's you would throw someone up in a dance at some point if you

were both talented and gifted enough. But there would have been a preparation. There would have been a nod, there would have been a look, a feel, a touch or to set that up. And like one of the hardest questions you talked about asking answer it asking yourself difficult, ques and I want to ask you something about that. But one thing I've said to my wife is, if you ever fall out of love with me, please tell me, because I don't want to live a day without love.

I'm really confident about the fact that I'm worthy of love and that I want to experience love in my life. If you ever fall out of me, just tell me it's okay, because I don't have the desire to stay somewhere for any other reason. And it sounds risky saying that and extreme, but to me, it's a greater risk to have spent ten extra years with someone and then they tell me I haven't really loved you for the

last five ten years. And then I'm like, I've lived without love for ten years in my life and I don't want to be in that place because I've seen

people go through that and not be happy. And so it does come with a humility and a openness to have very difficult conversations and not to force something that, oh, it's been going to get great for twelve years, it has to it should do, it must do, and it's like, well maybe no, Like, yes, if it does, it's great and it is right now, but why should right now be a prediction for how you feel in fifteen years with everything else that's going to change.

you need them. And I think maybe another reason why I didn't get married younger is because I think maybe I would have married someone not knowing who I was, and I would have needed them, maybe not wanted them. And I think now I have a life that's whole and complete as it is, and I would be making a choice from a place of I just want you and I don't need you. But I just want you, and I don't. I don't think I was that woman five years ago.

of I know what it feels like to be satisfied, and so I now know whether someone makes me more satisfied or less.

Like is this really what you want? And to be at that point and like realize and have to admit to myself that I wasn't and I didn't was one of the scariest things I've ever had to do, because you know, I basically had to ask myself on a daily basis, like I felt like I was crazy and walking away from something without knowing what You're walking towards was not having the answers, but leaving something that was that the world considered to be of such high value,

such a high value kind of moment in my professional life and career. I think that was a real sitting with that was a real moment of reckoning of like, can you tell yourself the truth? Can you live with your truth? Can you accept the fact that for most other people your truth is pretty confusing and unpalatable. That was definitely hard moment of sitting. More recently, because I've been being my own partner asking myself, are you really

living your values things that you preach? Are you actually aligned and actually looking at some spaces in my life where I was like, shit, no, not at all. I'm actually not doing what I talk about. And I need to like create some sort of urgency or a deadline for that so that I make sure that I am a persitive integrity. I purport to be someone that cares about the world and about the planet and sustainability. And

you know, there are some things I was doing. Was it enough by my own standards, not by anyone else's, just by my own? Probably not? But what's nice is I actually have the time now to be like, Okay, we need to do about it, get on with it, and like.

I quit acting or be an actor. I'm still open to doing it again. But I certainly made a decision to take time to figure out to not know and to you know, I had like this whole disassembling the structure that's needed to carry the load of once and it's like there's an agent and a publicist and a manager and a personal assistant, and there's all these people

and lives who are intertwined with mine. And navigating and caring for and negotiating that with people as well was like it was really tricky, and although I was just bloody terrified, Like I think there's a kind of infantilization that can happen when you work as much as I did, and a kind of lot of independence that means that you're like, oh my god, can I even do my life if I don't have this like army of people who are like helping me do the most menial and

basic of things, Like can I actually like do this stuff myself? And I don't even say that in terms of like capability, but like just from the place of like, it's difficult for me to walk down the street sometimes. So if I'm going to start to take on truly the responsibility for most of my life myself, like, what's that going to be? Like? Can I really do that stuff?

I think fame makes you feel like you can't do things for yourself in a way that can really disempower you and move your confidence and autonomy as a human being. That's that's really disabling and.

your values. Thanks and you are aligned with what you're saying. I wanted to people to know that thank you.

films that and you only would have more of that. So it's also not like you're leaving a career that's kind of had its you know what I mean, it's at a place where no business oriented person could imagine why. And so what gives you courage when one side is so clear and one side is not clear at all?

starting to hit a point of not no return. But like it's interesting, I eat well, I do yoga, I do medicine, I do all the things right, But I think I was using those as a way of mitigating how much stress I was under as opposed to actually, what those things are really for are compasses and points towards our truth, and I so was. I was using them as a way of like bolstering myself and allowing myself to continue down a part that actually was kind of wrecking me. And I think it was just like

my immune system couldn't pretend anymore. I was on seven or eight packets of an antibiotic every year because my immune system was so low that I would just constantly be getting I just constantly be getting sick and a

science infection and whatever else. Like my body just started being like no. I went from being someone who I would say it still handle stress and pressure well, and in the moment I could always do it, but the cost afterwards was starting to get more and more serious, to the point where it was like I'd always turned down or I actually remember I was in my early twenties when a publicist first offered me a beta blocker. I was nervous before a carpet, and it's the only

other time I ever took anything. And I was fine for the two hours after I took it, and then I got back to the room and when my feelings came back to me, I was like overwrought with grief and feeling of having blocked it, and so I'd always and after that, I never allowed anyone to give me anything again, even though I was offered things multiple times, and doctors just wanted to give me things for jet lag and for sleep and for nerves, and oh, everyone

takes it. This is you know, there's no shame in this or whatever. But I just I felt like in order to keep going, I was going to have to make a decision of like, are you okay with being low level unwell and medicated essentially, And I just knew

that wasn't a choice for me. So in a way, I have my body to think, because my body just I didn't want to ignore my body anymore. And it didn't matter how many silent retreats I want, or how much yogurt I did, or what like what new thing I did to try and take care of myself, my

body was done. And that was then, I think, when I went away and found a relationship with myself and my practice and just having trust and faith in a way that I never had before, and I started listening more carefully to like these little whispers of like, oh, like maybe this should be the thing you do, or like even coming and doing this, of like I think you should go and do this podcast just listening to myself the clues basically and listening to the universe whatever

that means. But I never had that before. I never had I never knew how to listen for those things before I truly went away and had nothing for a while. So that was probably the best result of all that.

an hour, yeah, to the grocery store. And it's like, no, it's it has so much more capability and ability to take you somewhere phenomenally, but you're using it for a really simple basic task.

I guess this is the path I've chosen to walk. And to some degree, in the same way, they're getting cast as hermione and like making my peace with the way that that changed my life were my marching orders. I think trusting that is that's that's all I can do at this point. Idly one for dear life.

and pink and there's butterflies on it, and it literally says I think, it says this is so embarrassing. It says I am beautiful. I just felt like I was like, oh my god, this is blows. I was like riding this wave of like meditation, ecstasy, basically whatever dopamine here I was getting from that was wild. I just felt unbelievable. And then I surfed that wave straight into some kind of like brick wall of Oh my god, like all the things in life that you think are outside of

you actually live inside you. And so even when you're like in this beautiful place, on this gorgeous meditation retreat with all of these wonderful, enlightened people, everything starts to drive you crazy, and even the like salt shaker and the pepper pot in front of you start to take on the shapes of your real life, and you realize that your mind just starts creating all this drama for you, even though there's nothing going on literally, And it was just it was such a wild experience to kind of

sit there and be like, oh my god, I'm creating all of my own drama. This is a night it's me.

of violence on yourself. I would try to like shame and blame myself into and like kind of shake myself up and give myself these kinds of like talkings to to make myself do stuff and sometimes, to be honest with you, they work in the short term and in the long term they fail you miserably, like they just do not work. The only way that I have learned to change my patterns, to show up for myself better, to change in the ways I want to change and

grow is to be loving towards myself. So getting to be in the room with that person at that moment was a massive gift.

me this ring, which has twenty two pedals on it, and each of them bought one. And I've just never owned anything so valuable in my life because to me, it represents the life that I've built, which was the one that I really wanted, which was one that was made up of community and my roots and faith and trust.

And in some funny way, it signals to me that even though I have no outwood signs of my success save for this crazy one woman play I've written, I don't even have my degree yet, and it signals to me that for me achieved what I wanted to achieve for myself. Wow, So that's pretty cool. I love that every time I look down on my finger, I can like see all of the faces of the people who

bought it for me. You're amazing at holding space. You're so kind the amount of people who probably sat in this chair and then as emotional as I have, and you don't turn away. It's amazing.

me fix it or I don't know that. I think it's like the people that God, it's the people that you just like do not have to have airs and graces with, and who you can just be like this just happened and it's such a disaster and yeah, and I don't know people. I think also who can handle your truths, your real truths and vulnerabilities like their sacred

and with care. I think that's been very important for me because I think maybe part of my bravado is I'll make a joke of or I'll be brave about things I don't feel very brave about, and it takes someone who knows me quite well to go she's making a joke about this, Yeah, she's like actually dying inside and I kind of know that and like I'm going to hold her through it.

or asking for help. I used to see it as like a great shame, like something I was really embarrassed

to do. And now I see it as like, I guess, like knowing how I feel when someone asks me for help that I really love and how amazing it feels to be able to be there for someone else I try to remind myself that when I'm feeling like I couldn't possibly burden someone else with something, I remind myself and do you remember how good it felt that someone like asked you to show up for them and that you got to be there for them at their worst

or darkest. And so I think coming to understand, like I think I also confused codependency or like I don't know. I didn't we are so interdependent as species, and and like there's no shame in needing and wanting other people. I didn't. I didn't understand. I didn't understand, and I do.

so true. Like when I when I left a monastery, and even though I was with my wife and we go into a relationship and we're dating, I used to always feel like I didn't I always I had this false mindset because of my immaturity and understand what being a monk was in that it was in this independent way of not needing or wanting anyone, and that we were in a relationship but it was great, but like that wasn't and I held that immature and I probably verbalized it to her too many times for too long

in the beginning of our relationship and no idea where she stayed. It's uh, it took recently. It was this

was so recent, This was like maybe a couple of months ago. Well, I realized that I shouldn't have said that years ago. But then a couple of months ago, my wife said to me, she goes, you're my calm, like you can't my nervous system, and I was like, you're my joy. You bring joy to every part of my life. And it was like that exchange was so needed and so powerful after having for so long feeling like, oh I have everything I need anyway, and I do.

I genuinely believe that. But it's what you said, is that we're interdependent for a reason.

gift sometimes to have someone ask you that ask you that question or like be honest about the ways that they need you. And it's crazy how long it takes these things.

want to show up as a full, integrated whole self and not compartmentalize and split and fragment yourself in a way that keeps you safe. And that compartmentalization did keep me safe and felt very necessary for a long time, because I was trying to keep some walls up where I could nurture myself and learn and grow and then be ready to share those pieces. But I think it's probably figuring out how to avoid the pieces that I know aren't good for me and that are genuinely just toxic.

starting to feel uncomfortable. Two not feel like I'm telling this part of the story, if that makes sense.

great and she was doing great stuff. But I think there's a part of me now that really feels like being able to speak to you one on one in this kind of setting, as opposed to what I used to do, which would be an enormous audience and there'd be like three hundred people there, and of course there's intimacy you can find in a room like that, but like the truth is, it's really difficult to find the kind of depth and the kind of connections that I

know are the ones that nourish me personally, and that's different for everyone, but that just aren't allowing me to have the thing that I know is the real thing that I'm actually seeking and what I used to go into lots of other environments seeking and thinking i'd be able to get and keep and just not not being able to find.

your co stars. And I imagine that's an extremely difficult thing when you've been a part of someone's world, when you've felt connected to their work, and then for it now to kind of be a four one eighty and for someone to publicly say these things that can be quite quite extremely hurtful. Actually, how do you think about that?

I just don't think these things are either or. I think it's my deepest wish that I hope people who don't agree with my opinion will love me, and I hope I can keep loving people who I don't necessarily share the same opinion with, and I think that's a very very important way for me that I need to be able to move through life. I just really, I guess I to circle back around. I really do believe

in having conversations and that those are really important, and that I don't know. I guess where I've landed is it's not so much what we say or what we believe, but very often how we say it that's really important, and that's really frustrating and not what you want to hear when you're really angry and upset with someone. But

I don't know. I just see this world right now where we seem to be giving permission for this kind of like throwing out of people, or that people are disposable, and I just think that's I will always think that's wrong. I always I just believe that no one is, no one's disposable, and everyone, as far as possible, whatever the conversation is, should and can be treated with at the very least dignity and respect.

had it feels really painful to me. And so that's why that's why that decision.

what we look for. We it's not that we're trying to make everything pretty and perfect, it's that no engage in a conversation.

to remain true. It is true. And this is where this like holding of these I just don't know what else to do other than hold these two seemingly incompatible things together at the same time and just hope maybe they will one day resolve or co join themselves, and maybe accept that they never will, but that they can both still be true. And I can love her, I can know she loved me. I could be grateful to her. I can know the things that she's said are true,

and that can be this whole other thing. And my job feels like to just hold just to hold all of it. But the bigger thing is just what she's done will never be taken away from me.

to be allowed to be true. You have to be allowed to care about fifty thousand civilians dying, seventeen thousand of which are children, and care deeply about the victims of this awful terrorist attack.

But I feel, to the extent to which I can humanly do, that I've shown up for myself and for you in a way, and the invitation that this podcast is and the work that you do in the world, I've answered that invitation. So I feel I feel good about that, and I've.

for my thirtieth birthday. And I think that being a good, pious Protestant English girl, I really believed that if I worked hard enough, and if I was kind of saintly enough, that someone would see my good deeds and all of my hard work and like give me the sticker, you know, give me their like give me the star, and so so I kind of martyrdom was part of my sort of I understood was important in my and I think reading her book and reading about pleasure activism, which is

sort of the idea that, like anything that you need to that you want to sustain, EG. Justice, EG. You need it to be easy and you need it to be pleasurable in a way, because that's what's going to mean that you'll be able to do it. For a long time. Part of my burnout was that I wasn't prioritizing pleasure and joy as kind of like underpinning for even some of the harder, more somber, cerebral things that I was doing. And I think that changed my life.

And I think we also have a model, particularly within activism and and lots of spaces that like this kind of sole individual, charismatic leader. And I like you, you know, my hero is always Martin, Luther King and Gandhi, and you just saw this sort of solitary person that was doing that. And I think if I could go back and do anything differently, it would be that when I embarked on some of the public activism that I did,

I wouldn't go in the way I did. I would go in with what I have now, which is not just like an activist community, Like I have friends who can give me feedback and who I can talk to and who I feel that I'm not doing the work alone solo. However heroic that might look. Yeah, I guess heroicism and martyrdom the way the way that it was looked, maybe I just don't believe that's how we'll get the job done anymore. I think anything good will get done.

So I think that book and I think that idea that revolutionized my approach.

you know, because like the truth is. The problem with like telling three quarters of the truth is that then you're sort of in this like constant pealing and unpeeling of yourself where you sort of like you're sort of trying to do it, but you're not quite doing it. And I don't know, I think a lot of advice around that. Also, anyone that tells you not to do what you love terrible advice. Doing what you love will lead you where you need to go, even if you can't see it at the time.

oh my god. And recently I was like, okay, I want to get my teeth whitened, and I looked like Ross from Friends when he'd had that awful fake tanning accident because they were just you too white. And then I had just spent go back for two other visits to get the dentist to put my teeth back to my normal teeth. So I guess I was just laughing thinking about like worst advice is just like don't ever listen to beauty technicians or anyone advising you to do

anything weird to your body, face appearance. Just just don't don't listen, don't don't take the bait.

of my favorite people I worked with Steve Tebowski. I remember him leaving what was a very productive rehearse or script meeting with Logan lermon Azramilla and I and he was like, I need to go and be with my wife now, and we were like, I don't think I've ever heard I mean, at that point, I certainly hadn't ever heard a director in my career say they needed to leave for a personal reason or for a personal relationship.

But I worked far harder for Steve than I worked for any other director, because I think I was able to give a far more vulnerable performance in that film, because I felt that he really cared about me beyond the product of the film. And I want to work with people like that who for whom the process is as important as the outcome, and the people that are part of it are more important than whatever the outcome is.

I think this is a really difficult thing that I see everywhere in the world right now, is that we treat objects and things like their sacred and we don't treat people like they're the sacred thing. And that's which, Yeah, I think it causes a lot of pain.

I feel like I tried to navigate so many problems on my own and I just didn't know who to really to and I was speaking to such a narrow group of people about what I was trying to navigate, and I just I think that working with young people and giving them each other and also the space, the reason, the excuses to talk about the things that we don't talk about or create spaces for, has been the most gratifying, the most purposeful and of service I felt in a

long time, because it turns out pretty often that a lot of the things that we're struggling with, other people are struggling with as well, And so in a way, going back around and trying to put out into the world a lot of the things that I knew I needed as a young person and didn't get it's been

the most the best, most gratifying thing. And I feel really lucky to be in a position and in a place where I can say and no, like like I've kind of done this treacherous journey, and I think that I think I might have some ideas about what might be needed for someone to come out the other side of that safely. So it feels good to be of use.

people as you would like to be treated. I would obviously solve a lot of problems as well.

Nyama's right, very disappointed. I can't remember what the word is in not sad maybe yeah, speaking the truth with kind like speaking the truth with kindness, that's an amazing There's an amazing quote, which actually is it was given to be recently by a friend, which is like the truth the truth without kindness is brutality, and kindness without truth is manipulation. A truth without kindness is brutality, and

kindness without truth is manipulation. And so when I say, like, tell your truth, I don't mean going around like just being awful to everyone. I mean like telling the microscopic truth and like having those being willing to have a

tolerance for those conversations. One of my favorite metaphors I actually wrote about this recently for being in a relationship with anyone is like you're in it's in a way, it's it's a dance, it's a fight, Like I think about boxing in the sense of like who is going to go down to the mat with you and like not tap out? Because being honest about what's really going

on is uncomfortable and it's risky. As we talked about earlier, you risk every time you tell the truth of maybe losing someone that you love because you don't know how they can respond to whatever your truth is. But I think to live that way creates the intimacy and connection that I think we long for, and also like sets people free in a way you and them. Truth. Yeah, truth with kindness, I think that's I think that's going to have to be my choice. Yeah, by factor of deduction.

It's just that you're not saying it in a way to trigger or get a reaction. You're saying in a way that hits someone like an arrow of truth. Wow, it goes I have to change. Wow, because that person has been so mindful of how they spoke.

listen to it. And to Emma, you have the you know to your competitive and winning spirit, you have the award for longest ever podcast record.