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It used to be you have a baby, develop the secure attachment and that's it. Our job is not to fix, it's to be there.
Actually have the podcast called Raising Good Humans Psychologists all these oppressmen.
Not only can you not be perfect, but it's actually worse for your kids. I feel like discipline is so controversial. I think of it as all feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
Should everyone be a parent?
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Jay set Jay Shedy J.
Everyone Welcome back to on purpose. I know that you come back here every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. And it's my commitment to go and find experts, thought leaders, and thinkers that can help you on your journey to make better decisions, to change habits, and to
transform your mindset. Now, I don't think there's potentially a more important topic than the one we're discussing today, because I think raising good humans, raising the future generation, and learning how to improve ourselves in the process is probably one of the most life changing journeys that any of
us ever go on. And today's guest is someone who has so many great insights, so many great takeaways, so many wonderful methods that we can all apply in our daily lives to become better at being a good human and raising good humans in the process. I'm speaking about doctor Eliza Pressman. She's a developmental psychologist with nearly two decades of experience working with families and their healthcare providers who care for them. Eliza is also the host of
the podcast Raising Good Humans. If you're not listening already, go ahead and subscribe. And today we're talking about her new book that's out called the Five Principles of Parenting, your essential guide to raising good humans. Please welcome to On Purpose, Elisa Pressman. Alisa, it's great to have you here.
I'm so thrilled to be here.
Ah, thank you for being here.
Honestly, I'm really excited to dive in as been talking about, and I wanted to get straight into this because I have so many questions I want to ask you, and I want to start off with what I believe is the most important one. And I feel in our society is often missed, forgotten, avoided, not even a thought. And the question is should everyone be a parent?
WHOA I don't think we can presume to say what anybody should or shouldn't be other than the whatever your definition of good human is. And so if that entails bringing kids into this world, if that's your calling, I think you must do it in whatever way that works out. But not everybody wants that, and it's it's, you know, it's an assumption that we probably shouldn't be making.
Absolutely for those who want children or have always thought they've wanted children, what would you encourage people to think about before diving in? Because I often feel that, like so many things in society, whether it's the degree we end up studying, or the job we get out of college, or getting married or having children. It almost feels like we're on a conveyor belt and we don't really stop to pause and reflect, which I know is one of
your key principles. We don't often stop and think, should we are we ready? What are the qualifications, what's useful? And we just dive in. And it's interesting that, you know,
and I've heard many people talk about this. I think I spoke to Kristen Bell and Dax about this at one point, and they were talking about how, like you just get to come back from a hospital with a baby, no exam, there's no test, and like you spend all these years studying for a degree, or you spend a couple of years practicing out a drive or whatever it may be, but all of a sudden, you have a
baby without a license and nothing else. And so, what are some of the things you'd encourage people to think about even before becoming a parent, that you think would help them in the process of being a parent.
I mean, ideally we all are thinking about this before or we've become parents, because it just that reflection of like, how did I get here?
How do we come to be who we are?
Which I think is the sort of crux of what developmental sciences is, how do we get to be who we are?
And what then.
Happened in that process that I want to bring to parenting and what do I want to let go of? And if you take the time to reflect, then you can be intentional about your parenting. So the idea that we can do this before we have kids. If you are in a position to talk to your partner about that and really think through that, talk to yourself about that, you can have a mission statement for how you want to be as a parent. It's not like what your kid's going to be like, because you have no idea what.
Your kid's going to be like.
That's a fantasy that you can decide, but we can't. They are whatever seed is planted is planted and that flower blooms. But we have so much capacity to be intent and so that reflection before you're even trying to have kids is so beneficial and it's actually linked with secure attachment relationships.
Oh wow, talk to me about that connection. I didn't realize that. Yeah.
So one of the things in the research on human development. Is that having a secure attachment relationship with your child or with you know, as the child has with one caregiver, and that is you know, a whole other. We're probably part of this conversation. It's so deeply protective. It buffers the impact of trauma. It's so important. And not everybody grew up with that. So about sixty five percent of
us came from secure attachment relationships. If we didn't, and we reflect back and we think through what was going on, how we came to be who we are, how we learned how to be loved, how we experienced love, how we gave love, we then have a much higher chance of turning what could have been just an autopilot to a different kind of relationship into this secure attachment.
Now, no what everyone's thinking right now, they're thinking, at list I wish you told me this five years ago. You'd have saved me right Like, I feel like a lot of our listeners may have already had children.
And it's natural. Again, I'm not judging anyone.
It's such a part of our community in society. And and then I think a lot of people, especially our community, who is really smart and thoughtful and intentional and listens and goes. You know what, actually I realized that, but I've already had children now and I feel like I've made mistakes. What are some of the most common mistakes people come up to you with where they're feeling guilt and shame And I feel so sad for that, because again,
you couldn't have known. You didn't know, and now that you know, as Maya Angelou said, now you know better, you can do better. What have you seen are some of the biggest mistakes people carry around as guilt and shame when there when they have become parents.
Well, I think so importantly attachment reallyationships.
Are dynamic, so you weren't just like it used to be.
We used to think like you have a baby, you develop the secure attachment, it's like a bond and that's it. But we know now it's dynamic, and so if you have a five year old or a sixteen year old or a thirty five year old, you can still grow that healthy attachment relationship.
So you can change.
And that's what your audience knows all the time. And it's true about relationships with your kids. But I think that shame is from thinking like I wasn't there enough. There's shame in not being able to fix whatever your child's going through. And what I hope everybody gets from certainly this conversation is that our job is not to fix, it's to be there. And that's what secure attachment is.
Even in your adult relationships. It's like, who can sit with me through all of these experiences, through these feelings because we're not like the idea of being happy isn't really about always being happy. It's about knowing you can come back from whatever it is that you're going through
and you will be happy again. And if our kids experience the range of things that come their way and they know that they have someone sort of sitting by their side, they end up in this relationship that is securely attached and it's not like one and done and if it didn't. You know, that's the thing that I think is the trickiest is feeling like I'm responsible for my child's constant happiness. I have to feel ashamed if I wasn't there for every moment, or if I couldn't
fix that feeling, which you can't, as you know. And I think sometimes people feel like they're maybe better or worse at different stages. And so there's you know, like this assumption that we're going to kind of know what to do, the idea that you do come home from the hospital and you're just like, okay, I guess I just feel like in adulthood this happens all the time.
Like I remember just the first time I was, you know, in my twenties and I had my own apartment, and I was like, wait, I can just decide what I'm doing.
I can open a bottle of wine. Like there were things that I still was like, I'm going to it's bizarre.
And now like that I'm the last, you know, person in charge of whatever, and there's nobody that I'm supposed to ask and I can make a decision. I'm still kind of like, is that okay?
Yeah?
And so the idea that you're just like in charge of raising a whole human being or more is really daunting and we all kind of think everybody else knows.
We don't know.
Yeah, And I think those two things really resonated with me, this idea of I want to fix all their problems and I'm not there them enough, and I can feel like I can obviously only relate to them theoretically from a parenting standpoint, but I can relate to them in my other relationships, So whether it's with my younger sister, whether it's with my wife, or whether it's with the
people I love in my life. And I can only imagine how that is amplified with a child that you're you know, that feeling and so, how do you carry that weight and almost loosen that control that is naturally it feels so got instinct correct, right, It doesn't feel like that's a bad idea. Yeah, it feels like that's the best thing, that's what you were made for. And then you're failing at it, and so how do you
do what you just said? How do you carry that weight at the same time is recognized that you need to put it down?
I mean, I think that that's where the idea of repair and the what we know about repair comes in is that in the same way that we build muscles, like you need tiny little ruptures in the muscles to grow stronger muscles, we have to have tiny moments of disrepair, of not being exactly the right parent, of not being able to fix the feeling, of the feeling being really really hard, of the experience being a fail in order
to grow stronger relationships. And so I think taking the weight off is much more easy or comes by more easily when you remind yourself, like, I'm actually building this muscle for my child and for me. So every mistake is to me this like, Okay, I just because you have this relationship, because you're invested, because you're intentional, you're going to blow it.
You're not going to be able to fix it.
You're going to feel like, oh my god, did I ruin my kid? And no, you invested in resilience building because you're there. If you were like, oh, well, you know, like rot and suffer, that's a totally different thing. But nobody listening to this is that. And so I think that lifts the weight of not only can you not be perfect and not only can you not fix everything,
but it's actually worse for your kids. And it is important to acknowledge what you said, which is it's still appropriate to want to of course, like.
You you should.
I think we all want to help the people we love, and it is amplified with the people that you are raising because it's like, I can make this better, I have capacity to change this, to call the school, to call the friend, to change the system, to.
Move to whatever.
But when we can get a little bit more sort of accepting of the fact that it is so hard to watch someone struggle, but when they're struggling next to you and you can be there for them and help them understand that that is part of being a person. It's not dangerous. Feelings are not dangerous. You're giving them such a gift that that's where I think you can let go of the weight.
Well, yeah, I think when I'm listening to you, I'm thinking it takes almost the same amount of energy to shame yourself as it does to shift yourself.
Oh wow, yeah.
Right, this idea of I'm going to sit here and keep replaying the mistake I made and the wrong thing I said, and how I messed up in this moment, or I do reflect on that as you would say, I do reflect on that, and now I know what I need to say next time, and what I need to say now and how to behave differently. And that takes the same amount of time, It takes the same amount of energy, it takes the same amount of effort. But on negativity bias naturally takes us into.
That it's like a spiral spiral, yeah.
And just self judgment, self criticism that we then pass down on to our children as they see us do that.
And then you're you know when you when you shift it, you're actually building the very strength of the relationship that you're lamenting, yes for the mistake.
Yes, yeah, when you when you were saying that, I was thinking about I almost feel like when I speak to a lot of parents as well, and I speak to my community and audience, there's a feeling of I went through something I never want my kids to go through that, right, or I didn't get this opportunity.
I really want them to get this opportunity.
So our life becomes this mirror projection of what I've called before, the gifts and gaps in our lives. So if our parents gave us gifts, we want them to have those same gifts. And if our parents left gaps, we want to fill those gaps for the kids. And so in that mindset, how does that mindset create challenges and issues and how do we actually tweak and refine that.
I mean, I think we overcorrect and so if we're reflective and we can say, Okay, this is the thing I really didn't have and I really want my kids to have. But let me be aware that that doesn't mean that I should forget about, for example, boundaries. You know, if I didn't receive a lot of affection and love and connection, am I going to be so worried that I'm not giving enough of that to my child that I'm scared of the limits and boundaries that are necessary for their safety.
I think that happens all the time.
And so it's all middle path, you know, like if we notice that something really really matters to us, can we let it matter without overcorrecting and forgetting about these other things?
Yeah, and that's so odd.
I know, it's such a challenge, Like I feel like that controller inside of us, and I feel that there's such a experience that we're having of what we're trying to heal in our children is what we're trying to heal in ourselves. And so there's this constant belief that I think I'm trying to heal them, but really I'm just preaching to myself and processing something internal. But our self awareness is so warped sometimes or hidden that we can't see that we think we're doing it.
Just for the benefit.
How do you break that veil, Like, how do you kind of how do you reflect effectively? I think that's the question I'm asking, Yeah, what is effective reflection? Because I think we can all ponder and maybe our reflection takes us as far as yeah, you know, my parents like always forgot my birthday. I won't forget my kid's birthday. I'll do it right. Or yeah, you know, my dad never turned up to my sports games, and so if my.
Kids sports like to miss the thing, Yeah, yeah, so that's good.
But what is the most effective version of reflection that makes it such a big part of your five principles?
So I think if you can write down, like set a timer and for five minutes and write down the story of who you are as a parent that your child's going to explain to their grandchildren, Oh wow, just five minutes, who are they describing? And then circle the words that really keep coming up and make that your mission Like this is my mission statement as a parent, and I now know sort of my north star, and within that framework, I'm going to reflect and decide if
it's still working or am I overcorrecting. So like, for example, if one of the things that keeps coming up is I want to be present.
I want to be present. I want to be present.
And the way you're translating it is you're not missing a game to the point where your child doesn't know how to enjoy themselves without the audience, to the point where it feels like they are so the center of your universe that they are worried that you are not a person without them. Then you would want to pivot and say, I can be present without being invasive, you know, But I think that that's the easiest way is to check into how is this? I mean, in a scientific paper,
you'd say, how is this operationalized? And in life, I would genuinely do that exercise regularly, like kind of every
year and check in. And the other thing that I think is very interesting about it is if you figure out kind of what your mission statement is like in this is this parent or in this household, if you're doing it with your co parent or again, you can keep it to yourself, but as your kids get older, if you say to them, my mission in this as a parent is this, you know, these three things were really important to me. What do you think my mission
or our mission statement is? And if your kids come back to you as they're older, and your like kindness, empathy and presence, and they're like education, persistence and money. That's okay, But then it's a moment to say, huh, there's one of two things happening here. Either I'm not parenting in the way that I mean to, because the messaging is clearly not getting across. Or I'm not honest with myself about what I'm really going for because there's
no right or wrong. No, But it's more like, how do I keep checking in with it so that that reflection is taken into action.
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So interesting how two people can have the exact same experience with the same parents, yet respond so differently. I played a lot of sports growing up, and my mum would be taking care of my sister and rarely would my dad show up. And I took that and I have a good relationship with my dad now, and I took that as a sign of I got to decide who I wanted to be. And it's been probably one of the best things that ever happened to me that my dad didn't sho up because I had no one
to impress apart from myself. Yes, and I love that because till this day, I make decisions based on not completely I have challenges too, but I make wholly. I will reflect on decisions as to how do I feel about this, because I'm the person that I have to live with, and I think that's one of my favorite
qualities that I've been able to gain in life. But I also know a lot of people who've been through the same thing, and they've just feel abandoned, they feel discouraged, they feel like no one was ever there for them. They weren't able to learn self validation in the process. And it's almost like as parents, when you're trying to overcorrect. It's that you don't know how a child is going to respond to your presence or your absence, And I think we can kind of get into a whirlwind around that.
And I like what you're saying, this idea of actually reflect with them totally. It's such a beautiful way as they get older of like, what does that mean? And I think that requires such a maturity on a parent's part because it's hard.
To do that.
It is, it is, but then you get to also model for your kids this thing that we wish maybe was modeled for us. Reflection and also just to your point about the different responses. And I write about this in the book, and this is a big part of the literature and developmental science, but temperament really is real. And I like how doctor Thomas Boyse talks about it as orchids, dandelions, and then later folks said they studied tulips. But it's like a way of looking at how the
environment influences you. That's kind of You're born this way right, you come into this world, has nothing to do with anything that your parents have done. You are responding to the wind in a different way than the next child. And so an orchid is going to thrive in certain sunlight, water and soil. But we've all or maybe not all of us, but I certainly have tried to raise orchids and they're like, it's like a stump because I just wasn't I wasn't sensitive enough to that particular flowers need.
And so I learned about the plants that needed less and I could fill my house with those, but you can't do those. And so but like a dandelion child, and these are real, like they studied these orchid babies for real, like as babies, not as actual flowers, but just label them as orchids and dandelions. And a dandelion is probably going to grow with just like your basic sunlight, water and soil, your basic love connection and some boundaries and rules. And they're they're gonna go to the game,
not go to the game. They're gonna be fine. But if you if you have a kid that isn't thriving and that's happening, then it's also it's very courageous, it's very vulnerable, but asking ourselves like what do I need to give in order for this flower to bloom? And it's gonna be different for every child. So it's not like you have one way to parent and that's it, but you know, and it's not as exhausting as it sounds.
It's more just like, okay, this one because you see it pretty quickly, Like as you get to know your kids, you're like, this one notices the sound of the air conditioning more easily. This one does not notice if anything is going on, like they're just sort of moving around the world and nothing's getting to them. Other kids are like this tag is itchy. It's temperament. It's not because
you know the parent was over coddling. It's like you can amplify these things, of course, like you could take a kid who's very sensitive, ignore their needs, ignore their needs, ignore their needs, and they're probably going to be extra needy. Or you can take a kid who's extra sensitive and turn that sensitivity into beautiful empathy and creativity and curiosity and thoughtfulness, but you're still dealing with the same sensitivity.
So I just think that recalling that you could go through experiences like not having a parent come to your game and no, let's say you have a kid and you're like, my dad never came to the games, and this is why I'm kind of amazing at knowing what I need and knowing that I'm not doing it for everybody else, and I'm not performing to please a parent. But then if your child says, can you.
Please come to a game, yeah, you can't apply that.
You have to say yes.
But I think what would be great is that you know in your heart, yes, I'm going to go to some of those games, but I don't have to go to all those games in order for this child to thrive. And that's the gift of the lesson that you got from your father.
I love that.
I so appreciate the nuance of that and the sensitivity of that, because I think that's where we trip ourselves up, where it's like, oh, that's the lesson I learned. I don't need to go to any games. They'll learn independence because that's what I learned. They are different, They're an old kid or whatever else it may be, and that lack of sensitivity and that lack of connectivity with them and noticing their temperament and noticing their environment that they
need is often what happens. And I also find that this kind of what you were saying, this idea of when we're noticing these things in them. When we notice inadequacies or lacks in a child in what we perceive to be an inadequacy, it's because we're having this feeling of we're inadequate because we haven't been able to have them.
Not have that issue.
Yeah, and I find that we're trying to solve it so that we can solve that inadequacy inside of ourselves, and then when it doesn't solve, and then we keep thinking, well, it.
Must be me, it must be me.
Yeah, what's me?
How do you process that? Door?
What's what's a healthy practice to have when that seems to be a recurring theme.
You know, it's really interesting because as you were saying that, I was thinking about what really pisses me off? Like what what when do I get When do I disappoint myself as a mother? And it's when my kids are doing something that I feel is hard for them, or they get hurt or something is like they should be better at this because of my pain parenting and.
I was the one who blew it.
And so my anger is not at all at them, but it comes out it can come out at them, which is the only thing that sort of motivates me to deal with it because we just feel like such failures and a lot of the time it's just like, wait a second, can I also look at what's the benefit of having something different going on for this child? Like maybe it means that they're going to see things in a clearer way, or maybe it means that because
this is bothering them, they're going to pay attention. Now I don't know what this is, but like, because you know, this is a silly example, but let's say itchy tags bother them, and there are sensory issues and all sorts of things, but we're not getting into that. But because itchy tags bother them, and they really like soft clothing, and there's You're like, I've raised this kid who can't function in the world, and now I'm mad at myself
because I'm like, just deal with it. But if you could say, I wonder if this is what strength will this bring for them instead of looking at it as a weakness. Is it possibly just different than you? Because one of the things about temperament is also like what kind of flower are you? Because there's something that researchers have long looked at, which is it's called goodness. A fit and when a parent and a child has a good fit, their temperament matches well, they tend to do
better and so they're not going to change. But we have more capacity to sort of pay attention to that. And so another thing that we can think about is like, what is my temperament? How do I respond to the environment, and why is that bothering me? And also if you feel like because I would say an example that happens a lot is if you have a kid who's more sensitive and you're just like kind of a dandelion. It's annoying. You know, you have to take a lot more care
and a lot more time. But you could have one parent who's like, I'm so sensitive, they're so sensitive. I'm going to be so attuned that maybe it's too much, maybe maybe they won't learn, you know. So it's again back to paying attention then coming to the middle of it and saying, okay, one of us. Let's say you have two parents, and you can say one of us is able to notice those sensitive moments.
We're able to sort of be attuned.
So I'm going to pay less attention to that skill that I have so naturally, and I'm going to focus on not panicking when my kid is uncomfortable. But maybe the more dandelion like parent is going to say, I think I've got the not worrying so much about them and thinking they can handle it. So I'm going to focus on being more attuned to what's going on for them, and so we just like it's this, you know, constant sort of. It's not hard, though, it's I think it's interesting.
I think if you look at it as curious and interesting, it's not like, oh my god, how much is there to think about? But it's just like in their small moments, you know, we're just kind of paying attention. And when you have that capacity to give attention to things, it's it's not that hard. It's what's hard is that we just want it to be right all the time and
not hard. But the like when you let go of it and you're just like, all right, my tendency is this, I'm going to I'm going to go on the other side of it and challenge myself more often than not fifty five percent of the time. I think you can really develop incredible relationships with your partner with your kids because you're basically saying I'm not going to assume that you and I are the same person.
I'm not telling the same story.
I'm going to let you unfold as you are, and I'm going to give you a little bit of my you know, like what I can offer.
Are there different forms of communicating with children that work at different ages in their journey? Like are there certain types of communication or forms of communication that are more effective between zero and five, ten and fifteen or anything like that, or how do you see that communication evolving over ages?
I guess I think the first five years there's a lot more physical communication, even though of course we want to use our words, because the more exposure to language you have, the more likely you are to have, you know, sophisticated language. But physical touch is so effective and a lot of times we try to talk young children like out of feelings, and those are the times that I really want to encourage people to let their nervous system
do the talking. So you just kind of put your hand on your heart, take a breath, remind yourself that whatever is going on for them, they're safe. They're just upset, and so you're lending them your nervous system, but you're not telling them you're not like you're safe, You're gonna be okay. You're just upset that you didn't get a blue cup and you really wanted it. You're more like reminding yourself of that quietly. You don't need to use words, and then over time you can use more words. But
in general, we use too many words. I say, using so many words.
Wow, that's interesting. And the reason for that.
Is because our kids only have so much capacity to listen, and a lot of the things that they're learning from us are watching and borrowing our nervous system.
So rather than saying.
You know whether or not something is worthy of freaking out about or telling them how to feel, they could just see that it's not scaring you. So instead of saying, don't be scared, they can be scared, but they're watching you not be scared. And like a flight attendant, I mean, this is this shows you my issues.
But like I am not a great flyer, though I fly a.
Lot, and I always choose the seat close enough to the flight attendant because I just want to see how they're doing. And then if there's turbulence, I feel like they have enough experience in this world and this gig of flying that if it were worrisome, I would pick up on it. And it's the same thing. If our kids are looking at us, come on, like, so we don't have to say so many words, but we do have to pay attention to what's going on inside of us.
That's such a good example. That is so interesting. I'm like, I don't I fly a lot. I'm not afraid of flying. But if there's bad turbulence, that's the first The first thing you do, right is I try and look at how they're doing. And it doesn't matter whether they turn on the thing and say, hey, there's turbulence. Pretty belts and I'm watching You're looking at their face and their body lengths so real. Yeah. Wow, that's such a great example. And you never think about that because you think it's
the words that do the communication. And you're so right that often you don't believe the words or you don't feel the words exactly.
And I want our kids to believe us, and so if we are going to use words, we have to believe them too. Like if you said no, no, no, I'm not upset, but you're upset, it's a mixed message and so over time your kids aren't quite they're not going to believe that they can read people properly because it's like, what's really going on? So I think part of it is fewer words, and then when you use words, tell the truth, I mean within developmental reason.
Yes, I asked a couple of people around what questions they'd be interested in asking, and I think the two big things that came up, which I'm sure you hear a lot of we're disciplined and.
Encouragement, like the two opposite things.
So it's like, this seems like two common parents' activities are disciplining and trying to encourage or nurture, and so I want to talk about each of those.
Let's start with disciplining.
What is the what is the right approach to discipline in a way as you talk about creates resilience, Yeah, as opposed to I guess if we had a mission statement for disciplining, traditionally it would be to get things right, to do things well, to know what is good and bad.
I feel those.
Would be traditional metrics of discipline. Yeah, what would you say are the new metrics? And and how does healthy what does healthy disciplining look like to lead to resilience?
Okay, I feel like discipline is so controversial, but I think of it as all feelings are welcome, all behaviors
are not. So if I had to sum it up, and I think we do think of discipline as punishment versus teaching, and it's teaching, and if we're teaching how to move through the world, and if we're teaching kind of what's expected, what are boundaries and they're real, like they are for your emotional, physical safety, and you're not just doing them to control, but you actually are, like, no, this is a big deal because it actually influences your
growth and development. It's not just for my entertainment. Then your kids trust you a little bit more and the relationship is stronger. But I think the key with discipline is not being afraid of how our kids react to it and having the strength of purpose and belief that if they do have a negative reaction to it, we can love them all the way through it, but we're not going to change our minds about it, because that's where it gets messy, is that. And I think this
is partly my whole field and industry. If we're talking all about how important the relationship is, and then you have this limit that you set like, this is my expectation of you, and your child doesn't like it. This simply like you know, I take the phone away at night or the iPad or whatever, and your child is freaking out about it. Then you go, well, now I've messed with the relationship, and so I guess I should.
They're crying and I need to get back in there, So okay, I'll give you more time or whatever it is. And that's where we get confused. I think if parents really understood that feelings aren't dangerous, that kids aren't going to say thank you for the boundaries and limits that we set, and that we set them with the intention of physical and emotional safety about not just them but other people. Like we're not just raising kids in a vacuum.
They have to move through the world and think about community and other humans, and so what's comfortable for them might not be thoughtful to other people. And so it's that balance between be there for yourself, but also not to the extent that you can't you know that you're entitled and don't respect that there are other people in the world.
Yeah, I remember, and I think my mom got that right from why I can at least follow that advice because I remember in my time was a bit easier because we were just playing video games, like that was the closest thing we had to a mobile phone, right, And it's I remember I'd get home from school and I was allowed to watch TV for thirty minutes and play video games for thirty minutes and after that to do homework.
Then we'd have dinner and then whatever that, you know.
And I remember that that hour was like something I looked forward to every single day because I'd get to watch whether it's The Simpsons or when I got older, like Fresh Prince of bel Air or whatever it was. And then and and those rules kind of changed over time where it's like, okay, now you get a bit more polaystation time or whatever else it may have been
as I got older. But I now look back and really value the fact that I had these limits and rules and discipline because it's created a healthy level of discipline that I value today in me. And yeah, of course, when I was a kid, I didn't enjoy it, like I didn't want to do my homework and turn off the tea.
Who does want to do that? But I feel like.
It was It's interesting how yeah, I don't think my parents negotiated in the bogainy with that stuff. It was just like, no, that's just how it is. And as uncomfortable it probably was for them that I hated them at that time, you know, at the time, Yeah, they were willing to live with that, and.
I guess it was for your benefit.
Correct, And I guess that's the hard part, right. So we want you want your kid to love you and like you, and it's not fun not being liked by someone, especially when you're trying to help them, Yes, and you're trying to do good for them.
No, it's true because it's like you.
I mean, there's three kind of parenting styles outside of neglectful, which is not you know, that's a whole other thing. But there's like the permissive, which is best friend parenting, and it is so sensitive. They do like you and you can play as many video games as you want and all that's great, except for it you have no nobody's steering the ship, and so it actually can lead to anxiety and depression and a sense that you are
too responsible for things. And the other side of it is authority Harran, where it's fear based and it's just rules, and it's just because I said so, but without the like, I know you really love doing this and I wouldn't stop you from doing it if I didn't know that it was better for your brain or whatever. So that's the middle path of like authoritative, where you're sensitive but you stick with your limits and boundaries because you know
that that's going to benefit your kids. And then you start to because it's about our comfort, like how much can I handle of you being upset with the boundary that I set. It's not like anything else. It's really just looking at ourselves and saying, what is my capacity for handling the discomfort knowing that I've made this choice because it's for my child's benefit, because they're definitely not going to be like, thank.
You so much.
And so when people say, like, this strategy isn't working, I'm like, that's not the goal. The goal is and for your kids to say, oh, thanks for explaining.
Now I'm just going to listen.
Right.
That's so interesting, isn't it.
It's like, as humans and as adults, we believe that getting something right means knowing the right thing to say and getting the right response, which is a response we want or agree with And the truth is, half the time, when you're doing the right thing, you rarely get a response in that moment that is aligned with what you want.
Like I always say to for me, I feel like, you know, up until eleven, I was a pretty good kid and obedient, and then eleven to twenty one, I was totally the opposite, and my parents were wrong about everything, or maybe fourteen to twenty one, And then when you kind of like twenty five, you're like, yeah, you know what, my parents were good, Like, my parents were right about so many things, and I'm so grateful to them and
all the rest of it. Like that kind of overarching feeling comes out, which, yeah, as a fifteen year old, you know, you didn't have And it's almost like we want them to display this, Like if my parents wanted me to display gratitude at fifteen, it was never going to happen.
Right, No, that's a great example.
Actually, yeah, right, but we all believe that we're the exception that our kids will do that. Yeah, Yet we were also the ungrateful kid. Right. It's almost I find it because I'm not a parent, I find it better to reflect on what I was like as a kid. Yeah, I know my parents had good intentions. I know they tried their best. I still chose to do things they would never agree with, and I still chose to behave in ways. And it wasn't because they did anything wrong. It's just because I was a kid.
You were being a developing human.
Your description of yourself mapping with brain development, and it tracks right like eleven to fourteen. Maybe we're just beginning to experiment with pushing them away and push back and rebellion, and then you know, that's like puberty happens, hormones change. Then there's you know, fourteen to till you were in
your twenties. Your prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop till eighteen to twenty eight, and boys it's later, so it's usually not the eighteen and so you are more you know, they say all gas, no breaks, and so all of the things you're talking about are mapping with where your brain was at the time. And as an adolescent, you're about to leave the nest, and so you're supposed to start to learn how to reject and so it's this
like push pull. Ideally, there's still moments of connection, and you know, maybe they didn't you know.
It's possible.
I don't know, but it's possible that they felt rejected by your rebellion and then you you know, you're pushing away then worked, and so they didn't come toward you and say like despite all of this, like we love you very much, or maybe they did, But those are times of tension, and you're supposed to by the time you're ready to go out into the world, you have to feel like you know, you shouldn't can And if it was just like cozy and delicious at all times
at home and there was none of that tension, wouldn't be motivated to grow up and go on.
So it all makes sense.
That is so I've never heard it put that way, and I've never thought of it that way. That is such a fascinating point that in order to leave the pack you have to have a sense of rejection, autonomy and independence just.
In the idea of development.
Yeah, like there has to be that feeling of I can do it on my own and I will figure it out. And yah know, my my parents, I think honestly, were able individually with me to be like I always feel that my mom was able to be that person who I always feel even till this day is always there for me, but never smothering or controlling in that way. And so it's it's been a really like I know that if no matter what was to happen, I could always my mom would catch me. Yes, and I know that.
But that's what's given me the confidence to not have to rely on it. Yeah, because it's it's there and I know that deeply. Yeah, it's just there. And and when my dad, he was a lot more aloof But like I said, that worked good for me because it helped me chart my own path and you know, build that, which is interesting. I wanted to dive in a couple of things that stood out to me from the book that I've dogg here here because I've got so many little parts that I loved that I wanted to talk about.
One of the things I was thinking about is you talk about here the idea of having a parent who's
helping us through hard times. And I was thinking, I think one of the hardest thing about a young person going through a hard time is they don't have the vocabulary to talk about it, even even adults, but kids especially, Yeah, even adults, like you know, it's hard even to ask your partner when they're going through a tough time, let alone a child that And I think with our children we try harder often than we try with our partners.
But with your child, you're like, tell me what's going on, like I want to know.
I'm here to help you, and they're like I don't know, Like go away, like I don't know what I'm going through. Right, walk us through that path and that process, because again we feel so rejected and so distant and it almost feels like we're failing. But the real issue here is we can't get them to open up, and therefore we can't help.
Yeah, I mean it's so hard because if you push and for a lot of some kids are like disclosers, Like there are people I was like, let me tell you, let me tell you everything, mom, to the point where she was probably like I really don't need to know this much. But then there are the more closed in, closed up kids. And also it just depends on your vocabulary that you've grown up with, which is I think that going back to like, even when you have limits and rules, you want your kids to know, as you're
describing your mom, that they have you. So if you do mess up, yeap, you can still go to them instead of being terrified.
And so that's this.
Weird thing where it's like, here are my expectations. Also, I want to name the fact that you're going to blow it sometimes and I want to be the person you come to, and that's something to say, not when they're struggling. And I think part of the reason why it's hard to get kids to open up is because we try to get in there when they're in the center of the struggle instead of like building the vocabulary
and connection outside of it. So you have the conversations and you give the language when nobody's in the heat of the moment, so that when the heat of the moment comes, they already know that they can come to you and you can just say to them, I can tell something's going on. I'm here whenever or if ever, and then just leave space. A lot of times doing something with a kid who's not opening up, like going for a drive even so that you're not looking at
each other. And you know, I can't think of any sport right now because I'm not super sporty, but you know, like playing, I'm like, what is it called? And one does a game with someone now, thank you. So you go play pickleball. You're playing pickleball, it's going to come up, but you want to just like put little tiny moments where you say, I'm askable, I'm tellable, and I'm not
going to say anything. And one of the things that helps is that when your kids do tell you something, you say thank you for telling me before you have any other reaction, and that may be your only reaction, and then you give them a little space and then you say is there anything I can do? And it's not you know you can fix it, it's is there anything I can do to be supportive of you right now?
And the other thing is like this is developmental too, but when you think about teenagers versus young kids with younger kids, you want to be This is going to sound ridiculous if you don't think about animals this way, but I do, so tell me if it resonates. But you kind of want to be a dog. You're wagging your tail when you're excited to see them. You're always there and you're like really enthusiastic and they need that.
But then as they get older, imagine you're eleven to twenty five year old self you need to be a cat, so you're like a little You're there, you're always around, you're not you might you're touching their feet, like you're not overly on top of them. But if they're interested, they can come to you. But you're not going anywhere. So it's like it's this safe thing where you're there
for them, but it's it's not so intense. And then they have the opportunity to open up a little bit, and when they do, you don't pounce like a dog. You stay a cat who's like welcoming the information, but not you know, saying oh my god. And then you know, because you don't want your kids to think you can't handle my truth.
So I'm you're not the person to tell.
Yeah, and I feel that's the heart time to be the cat because you're scared about them getting involved in the worst, the worst things, like whether it's drugs or you know, addiction to social media or getting involved in the wrong circles, like that's the age at.
Which it's going to happen.
Yeah, it's terrifying.
So yeah, it's terrifying.
So they're not and they're getting a driver's license. They can drink now, you know, as you know, as they get older, it's like it's almost like those are the times where you want to be more hands on.
And you are fit.
That's why I say you're physically present, Like I think toddlers and teenagers need you more present than anybody. But we think teenagers are like off on their own and whatever.
But you're home, like if they're going to a party, you're home to greet them and look into their eyes, so you don't need to ask if they've been drinking, because you will know when you hug them and look in their eyes, and you can have a conversation in a different kind of way than if you're sort of like I'm out, you're out, you're older, you know, take an uber, don't drive drunk.
I'll see you tomorrow.
So I think your presence is important, but the sense that you're like kind of all over them verbally has you have to pull back a little bit, and it's terrifying. But if you've cultivated the relationship and you've set the expectations from you know about substances and social media and whatever, it's easier. But when something's really bothering them, what they need is to know that they don't have to explain it and they can just come to you and be sad.
What's a good way to have that social media substance conversation because that sounds like the.
Worst nightmare for any parent, I know. It's like, how do you have that conversation?
And again it's like you can't define whether you're going to get the right answer back or whatever. So what kind of communication around those two specific things have been effective for parents or that you've seen.
Okay, So one of the things, the most protective thing is that you just have the conversations the relationship, and so you're like, over time, it's never one conversation, and hopefully before they're teenagers, you're starting to talk about what these things are and what they do to your brain. And with substances, for example, we know that before certain ages your brain is so it's in such a growth mode that you don't want to mess with that growth
by putting substances in it. So if they have any thoughts about future and hopes and goals, now's the time to talk about that and explain that, like at a certain point, you're going to be able to drink at a certain point depending on what state you're in You're going to be able to smoke pot, but right now your brain is at a vulnerable stage, and so it's a bigger decision now, and in this household, it's not
on the table. And also, if you make a mistake, I'm the person you come to because your safety matters more to me than anything in the world. So I'm never going You're never going to regret that. So I think it's one of those things where it's both a limit, a boundary, and a relationship and you're paying attention, and so that's one the best friend. Parenting thing can be problematic because you're like, well, I'd rather them drink at home, or I'd rather them get their drugs from me, And
this is we know from the literature. It's just not so you don't want them to feel like, you know, we've sort of created a world where we want our kids to make it's so easy that they don't even have to push back.
You're like handing them. Did you see Mean Girls the movie the originally the original?
Oh yeah, I love the reason you know, Tina fe walks not Tina fe Amy Poehler walks in like with with cocktails for all the girls and they're getting ready and they're just like ew, it's like you don't you You might crave connection and desperately want to give them the thing so that they're sticking with you, but you're still the parent, and there needs to be they need to know that it's hard to do those things, you know, like there are barriers so that you don't break the
rules overtly. So let's say they do end up drinking. There's a difference between if your kid eventually ends up drinking, because you've really made it clear they can't, so maybe they've pushed it off. So now instead of at fourteen, they're seventeen, and there's a difference between drinking where they're just taking some SIPs of a white claw and binge drinking. And you talk about that with them, like I can't if I can smell it on you or see it,
that's a problem. But there's there's a message in there, which is like, if you're going to make a mistake, make the mistake moderately. And those are all the different ways to sort of help lay the ground work for them to do as best they can to keep safe. But like you're not giving them the you know, the permission and the carte blanche to just kind of do whatever.
Yeah, it's such a challenging balance.
It's so hard.
It's so hard. Like I was thinking about it when I was a kid. If anything was off the table, that was the most attractive thing.
In the world.
And I think that's very important to acknowledge, is like, it's still going to be attractive. So if you set no limits, the other side of it is there needs to be something for a teenager to push back on. So if you're like, I'm going to use an example that's less fraut clothing. If you're like, you can wear whatever you want, I don't care. And you see that your child is going out to a party in like something very revealing and you don't say anything, then they're like,
I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna I'm not even getting pushed back. This must not be revealing enough. I'm going to now wear something ridiculously like so revealing that it's offensive even to me. But I'm gonna do it because let's see what happens. And your parents says nothing, and at a certain point it's like the parent is you're supposed to put on a sweatshirt and hide it from your parents.
Take the sweatshirt off and like know that this.
Is not something that is like their dream, but that you can call them if you need them, and if we make things so it's a balance because you need to be rejecting of your parents. So make the limit tight enough that there's, you know, something to reject and there's something to do that's not dangerous.
But also know your kid's temperament.
And there are some kids where you have to frame things differently because they're just like, oh, your no is my yes. And I think that that's something to just pay attention to because everybody's different and every kid is going to be different.
Yeah.
I know. But that's a really interesting point about needing to reject something and needing to have tension on something, and it's almost like if you remove the tension.
Completely, Yeah, what is there? What's there to do?
What's there to do? Yeah?
I know, that's that's fascinating. I want to talk at the flip side, we're talking about discipline, talking about encouraging, and I feel like the biggest thing people want to do, at least the route I find, is wanting to raise a confident child. Right. You don't want your children to feel insecure about the way they look, the way they think, the way they act. And that seems to be the biggest challenge of the day with social media and everything else.
And so there's a real sense today of insecurity, envy, comparison, feeling less than How do you raise a confident human?
Well, I think there are two parts of confidence that we can really cultivate, and then there's separately, like behavior patterns that we can help along, like turning off social media, like taking it away if it's really just like harming you. So if you notice that you have a fifteen year old and they're fixated on how certain things holding my hand up, they're fixated on what naturally they're going to be, but like some are more inclined than others, and it's
really starting to get them down. Say to them, how's this is making you feel? Because what I'm noticing is you're feeling worse and worse when you look at this. So let's figure out a limit and I'll help you because I'll just take the phone away even when you're feeling like, oh, I really want to.
Look at this.
But it comes from this real compassion and then the two things for confidence that we can do. The first is remember that competence builds confidence, not praise, like telling you they're amazing is not going to make them feel like they're amazing. It's the competence, like helping them develop the skills. And those skills don't have to be that you're like a star violinists or tennis player. It can be that you know how to cook or put the dishes away, you know, just just.
A functioning individual.
And so we tend to do everything for our kids, even if they're capable of doing it, but then praise them as if that's building the confidence. And so I think that's one thing, and the other thing is helping them understand how they feel and how they are reading the room, because then you start to go like, okay, I can trust myself, and that is part of confidence as well.
That competence and praise peace, that's huge. I love the way you said that because I've often thought about that with so many of my friends, because I was quite as shy and I would say, oh, somewhat, I was in skerew about my weight growing up and to some degree the color of my skin to like experiencing racism growing up and things like that.
And so.
When I went to high school my secondary school is we call it in England, my parents forced me to go to public speaking and drama school and that was somewhat of my worst nightmare and parts, but it was really amazing because it built a competency that then became really interesting and useful as I came to my teens and all of a sudden, I felt like I had a skill that I could use and implement and it was really helpful in so many ways, and of course
has gone on to change my life. But I look at that and I often tell some of my friends who were parents, and I'll be like, I promise you just work on a skill, because that changed my life. And they can't imagine a world in which I was shy or that I was insecure, because they're like, oh, Jay, you must have you know, and I'm like, no, no, no, I promise you, Like it was developing skills that gave
me confidence in myself. And You're right, they start really small of you know, you have a skill, like I know my wife has the skill of she's really good at like techy stuff around the house, which I'm horrific at and she like can fix the TV and fix this and that, and like she can do that because her and her dad used to do that and she has a competence around it, and that as a kid was something she knew she was good at. And I think it's so interesting how we often think that even
bonding time with our children has to be social. H And of course that's awesome, and I wonder I actually want to ask you about that, like how it because you're it's interesting what you said. And obviously my parents outsource the skill development because my dad would hate teaching me math because that was not a good good My dad's really good at math and I'm not so good, so it was great to outsource it to another teacher.
But how do you see that parent child relationship based on social versus skill development and what's good to outsource, what's good to in house?
Well, I think if you have to know yourself, like if you're going to get frustrated with your kid because they are not as easy to explain math to, you're probably not the best person to help them along with the math. But if you have something that you see even a kernel of interest in your kid, like they're interested in seeing how you fix the TV. Spend the time helping them learn how to do that, like you're it's a shared experience together.
It's a shared skill building even learn how to do it.
That teaches them growth mindset, like I'm not really good at this, but it looks like for first of all, it's great if your kids actually have a skill like mine are obviously better at tech than I am because they're in it.
They this is their native tongue.
So my seventeen year old is for sure the chief technology officer of the family, and like anything tech that happens, I'm like, please fix this. But it's interesting for her. And if that's interesting for her, what I could do, I don't. But what I could do is say, teach me how to get better at this, tell me what you know. And one other way to get really confident is to teach, like, teach what you know. That's why it's great when you know older kids in school teach the younger kids.
It's so awesome.
So that is the other side of skill building, is like allowing them to then, you know, show you what they've learned earned and really pay attention to it. And you know, checking in with what they're interested in. The way attention works is you have to care, you have to be interested. So if you're trying to get your kid interested in something and skilled at violin and they just are not interested, it's not gonna It's the thing
that you're looking for is for them to know. Whether it's bead making or tennis or violin, it doesn't matter. It's the act of working on something and getting better at it that.
Builds the confidence.
And it doesn't matter what it is.
It doesn't matter. So we have to like let go of that investment. I mean, certainly there are going to be some things because it's just what we're going for. Like I didn't know how to play tennis growing up, and I am so annoyed, Like it just bothers me so much. Socially, it bothers me as a grown woman. I'm like, I can't hang, I can't do the fun things my friends are doing. So I force my kids to play tennis, not competitively, but just like you need
to know how to do this. But and so, so I think you get a pass for a couple of those things, and you just have to acknowledge your kids like, I don't care if you're interested in this is a me problem, not a you problem, but in general, like let their interest lead.
Yeah, yeah, no I did. I can relate to that so well.
My parents forced me to learn piano and it was the most At that time. I was like, I hate this, and now I'm so sad because I think the piano is one of the most beautiful instruments.
And I look back and going, God, they were right. Why did I throw it away?
And and you're going to have those natural experiences. They allowed me to quit because I was so hell bent on no, I don't want to do this, and they saw that, and so they allowed that to happen.
And now I regret it.
And so but that's okay, yeah, because now you'll just remember.
Yeah, exactly exactly.
It's it's it's interesting how I feel like it's such a I've been reflecting on, hopefully at one point, being a parent in my life a lot, and all I
keep coming back to is this. A few things that keep coming to me are humility, releasing control, and the acceptance that I don't always know what's best or right, and allowing for someone else to evolve and grow just as I've had to despite my parents' best interests, And that sounds like the most beautiful lesson and the biggest challenge at the same time, because it's the thing you do want to control the most, yet can't.
Oh, I know, it's the thing you want to control the most because it's the most important thing. And it's like, if we can accept that we can only control ourselves, our parenting flourishes.
And that, in one sense, is the harder answer, because we always think we can change things outside of ourselves quicker than we think we need to change.
Yeah, that is the craziest thing about my job is that so much of it is and coologists in whatever area of psychology they're in, because there's so many different branches. And I'm not a clinical psychologist, but even clinical psychologists who are sitting, you know, a lot of times they're meant to be working with children, but what ends up
happening is they're working with the adults. I'm only working with the adults, but I think it's because adults can work on themselves and control themselves, and we have this inclination to want to control our kids.
Again.
It's all with the most love and hope but we can't, and so that's not you know, like that's not the best use of our energy.
Lisa has been such a joy talking to you today.
Honestly, I feel like I've learned so much, I've reflected so much, and I want everyone who's listening and watching to know we have simply skimmed the surface of some of the insane and incredible topics and methods they are inside this book. If you've been listening and watching so far, make sure you go and order The Five Principles of Parenting by doctor Eliza Pressman, host of the Raising Good
Humans podcast as well Alisa. We end every on Purpose episode with a final five and these have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
So these are.
Your final five The question. The first question is what is the best parenting advice you've ever heard, received, or given?
All feelings are welcome, all behaviors are not.
What is the second question? What is the worst parenting advice you've ever received or heard?
You just want your kids to be happy?
Question number three, what's something you used to believe to be true around parenting, but recently you've changed your mind about that?
I would be better?
Wow, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Question BEFO for.
If you could encourage every parent to build one skill that would help them become a better parent for good humans?
What would that one.
Skill be one of the five that makes you the most uncomfortable of relationship reflection, regulation, rules, and repair.
Yes, love that.
And fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
Hunt for the good?
That's beautiful. I love that, Doctor Eliza Pressman. Everyone.
The Five Principles of Parenting is the book. Go and grab your copy right now. We'll put the link in the comment section, and please tag me and Alisa on Instagram, on TikTok on Twitter. Let us know, sorry X, let us know what is resonating with you, what you're trying, what's working for you. I think, as you saw today, Alisa is really giving us a lot of stuff to play with, stuff to interact with. There's no right or
wrong way, There's no good or bad way here. It's about figuring out how sensitive you can be, how close you can get to the human in front of you, how you can learn to balance and play that middle path, and so as you are trying all of this great insight out. Please do share it with us. We'd love to see it. I'd love to thank you again, Elisa for doing this, for being present here with me today.
I really enjoyed sharing this energy with you, and I really believe this is going to help a lot of people.
So thank you so much, Gosh, thank you so much. This has been incredible.
Thank you.
If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with doctor Daniel Ahman on how to change your life by changing your brain.
If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain.
You know.
I've had the blessing or the curse to scam over a thousand convicted felons and over one hundred murderers, and their brains are very damage