Dax Shepard ON: Prioritizing Your Mental Health After Addiction & How to Make Peace with Your Past

could get those hours of practice without betterm. Hey everyone, welcome back to this very untraditional on purpose podcast that has already been taping for maybe fifteen minutes of a very general conversation that Dax and I have been having. And I'm so excited to be talking to you today. I can't believe it. My new book, Eight Rules of Love is out and I cannot wait to share it with you. I am so so excited for you to read this book, for you to listen into this book.

I read the audiobook. If you haven't got it already, make sure you go to eight Rules of Love dot com. It's dedicated to anyone who's trying to find, keep, or let go of love. So if you've got friends that are dating, broken up, or struggling with love, make sure you grab this book, and I'd love to invite you to come and see me for my global tour Love Rules. Go to Jay Shelleytour dot com to learn more information about tickets, VIP experiences and more. I can't wait to

see you this year. As you already know, our amazing guest today is none other than Dak Shepherd, actor, comedian, writer and director, and of course, podcast host of one of my favorite podcasts, Armchair Expert. He's known for his appearance in films like Without a Paddles, Thora Space Adventure, Employee of the Month, and many many more, and Dak's also portrayed Crossby Braverman in the NBC comedy drama series

Parenthood from twenty ten to twenty fifteen. He also played Luke Matthews in the Netflix show The Ranch, co starred in ABC's Bless This Mess, and acted in the MTV reality series Punk That I Grew Up On. And since twenty eighteen, Dax has hosted the award winning podcast show arms Your Expert, where he interviews celebrities, journalists, and academics

about the messiness of being human. If you don't already listen to it, make sure you go and listen to Arms your Expert, and Dax and I got into a very random Instagram comment conversation which led to a bit of DM which led to us connecting in this way. So, Dax, welcome to the episode. And I'm genuinely a fan and admirer excited to connect. As I said, Kristen has been so gracious and kind to me before. It's wonderful to connect to all the darts. Thank you for being here.

Oh it's my pleasure. That intro was exhausting. I felt for you. I was excited by I love I love diving into people's past and experiences and kind of connecting the dots because I think it's really easy to, as you know, look at someone and think, oh, yeah, well they've always been this way or they've always out well together, and then you look at the date that someone started and you go, oh, wow, they've been doing this for a long time, you know, And I think that that's

always it's a beautiful thing. I actually think I think it's weird is for the person, you know, like when I'm now I just had someone. An hour ago, I interviewed Mandy Moore and we got to talking about the fact that she had been unpunked, and then we started doing the math and I was like, wow, that was eighteen years ago. I said, if we had had a child that night, we would be sending them off to college. That's kind of mind blowing. And aging is such a

peculiar phenomena to begin with. And the fact that if you're an actor or whatever, you have some resume that's publicly known. It's kind of documented. The timeline. Yeah, so it's like an upside of that, which is cool, and there's a downside to it, of course. But I have a very good memory, but I have a very terrible memory for dates. So I can basically tell you if things happened before ninety three, from high school, four after two thousand and then maybe to my kids were born.

It's probably a gap between two thousand and twenty thirteen where I don't know, it could have been anywhere in that zone. Yeah. I love hearing that. It makes me feel a lot better because I have a friend that I connect with regularly. I went to high school with him and we actually went to the same college, so we were together from eleven to twenty one. And he'll remind me of like, do you remember this person, I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've completely forgot, or like,

do you remember we did this ridiculous thing together? And it's weird because eleven to twenty one as such formative years, you'd think I would remember them, But those are some of the ones that I've I've completely wiped off my memory. So, and what's your theory on why that has happened? I mean, my theory is that was preceding the time that I

spent living as a monk for three years. And I really believe that a lot of my rewiring of my brain and habits during my time as a monk erased set and memories that were no longer useful in the new identity and new mindsets that I was creating. And that wasn't conscious. It was so unconscious and unintentional. But that is the only theory I have. What about for you? Why is that ninety three and then the two twenty

thirteen mark? What's your theory? Well, now I can tell you everything that happened, I just can't tell you what years they happened, right, Okay, necessarily what predated the other thing? It's a kind of more of a chronological issue, but I do have all the memories. Now, I'll tell you a very crazy example. So I'm driving in the car one day and I don't know why I think this. Maybe I see a billboard or something, who knows, But I just started thinking of Whoopi Goldberg and I think

I love Whoopi Goldberg. I just love her. I've always loved her. She has always seemed so certain of who she was and blah blah. And I'm just kind of, I don't know, ruminating on how much I like her or admire and then I have this kind of snap shot memory of hugging her, and then I thought, well, hmm, I've never met her. I don't know how I would have hugged her. And now I've become obsessed with like

is that an imagination that I had, you know? And then I'm thinking about it for so long a couple hours that eventually I put into YouTube Dak Shephard will be Goldberg. And by god, I've been on the View three times and this is not shade to the View. I enamored with that. I think that's an incredible thing to have gotten to do. But I just had to

confront so my first thought was like, oh, that's very scary. Yeah, But anyways, I was like, all right, I was on the View and I hugged her afterwards, and I got to teller that I really respect her, but I wanted to kind of figure out how that had happened. That would be inconceivable to me at twelve years old if you said, hey, you're gonna be on the show one day and you're gonna forget you're on that show. And so then I was feeling bad about myself. You know,

I was getting critical. This must be some failing. But then I just kind of thought, man, when you do press people who aren't in show business, they don't know. Like if I go to New York to promote parenthood, my day is I started the Today's Show. Then I go to a second version of the Today's Show, I do five print media things. I end up doing The View and maybe Rachel Ray and so all these other daytime shows, and then it goes into a nighttime talk show.

I'll be on you know of you name it, Seth Myers. And if you've done that, if you've done on enough shows and you've gone in New York to do that, you know, it's just it's a capacity issue. I have to imagine, you know, there's I'm only you know, I have a finite memory, and you know you kind of dump some of those appearances, I guess. But I wanted, of course, to find something wrong with me. And now I've come to peace with just like, yeah, I know, it's not like I'm a hot shot. I'm not arrogant.

I don't think I'm too cool for the view. That's not it. It's just a capacity issue. Yeah, it's a capacity issue. And and like you said, a repetition issue. If you're doing something repeatedly, you're not going to remember it the seventh time or the time you do it. And that's key. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because my first time on the Today's Show, I could tell you every moment of it. Yeah, you know, because if it's been recorded and then not any of the subsequent ones, probably Yeah,

that's that's a really good way of putting it. I think what's fascinating about memory, though, seeing as we've gone there now, is so many of our memories are also based on pictures that we saw of ourselves as children. So what I've realized is when you can see yourself in a memory, that's not a memory, it's a picture because your view as a memory, you would be not

looking at yourself. Great way to delineate that, But I'll add to the confusion for me personally, it's like, if I'm on Letterman, there is a monitor by the cameras, so I actually can see me on Letterman while I'm on Letterman. So then again, now for me to unravel whether I remember the appearance that I saw on TV or my experience there, I don't know who knows. So that's the worst case of inception. There probably is. So yeah, that sounds clea. You're also in like a mere with

a mirror behind you, so yeah, yeah, it's correct. Yeah. I often get fascinated by that memory point though, that you know, how many of those experiences that I remember of childhood were actually me living them, or my parents showed me video, or you know, my parents showed me

a picture of myself. And I think about that often with how I'm someone that doesn't despite my life being on social media and certain parts documented, I'm actually not good at getting my phone out and grabbing pictures, and it's it's not a part of my daily I don't really walk around my phone out so much, and then I but I often also asked that, well, if I had didn't, if I haven't taken a picture, do I actually even remember it that well? If it wasn't like

a really moving, dynamic experience. I mean, when you think about memories, what are your like, I guess, what are your favorite some of your favorite memories personally or professionally that stay strong that you feel are so crystal clear that you could feel them again. I hate to admit this, but I've come to understand that the memories that support

what I think my identity is. Yes, it's interesting that you even brought up the monk thing and how you kind of lost an identity, and in order to do that, you almost had to lose the memories, which makes sense to me because you're like, you've lost the plot points that led to your conclusion that you were Jay Shetty whatever they thought you were at that point. And I have been in a business where and this isn't unique to me but a little bit. It is only because

I acted and I also wrote. I was employed as a writer as much as an actor, and then also I directed for a few years, so I was always kind of juggling, like, oh, am I an actor? I know I'm a writer. It's not working as an actor. I'm a writer. And then oh my god, I'm a writer director. That's what I am. And so and then as those things either failed or succeeded, I'd have that identity a little longer. And then all of a sudden, I was a podcaster, and now I'm considering an identity.

Now of course it's all work related, but now my identity is like me weirdly, you know, I have a show, I have a podcast where it's just me, And as I do that longer, I'm kind of less interested in all the other identities I had. And then, of course the crowning jewel of identities for me is a father. So this Sunday it will be nine years that I'm

a dad. And then that kind of just overtook all the other ones gracefully and thankfully, where that one feels like bedrock, you know, that feels like son or sibling whatever, And I had no clue how much I needed that, yeah, because I wasn't willing to go be a monk for three years if find out who I actually was without any of these connections. So yeah, it was just a great relief to have something that I would define myself around other than work, which is fickle and good and

bad and all as many things. But so for memories, I'm probably inclined to tell you all the steps that led to me getting on punked, or all the steps that led to me being a class clown or you know, and then even weirder than all this, because we also touched on your life making sense now at this point, I had the ultimate moment of that while hosting top Gear, which I've done for the last two years, where my other side hustle, it was always motorsports. That's all I

really ever wanted. I just if I could have been a race car driver without him in it. So I've spent all this time at racetracks and racing and riding motorcycles and doing all this stuff, and there was just a moment shooting one particular episode of top Gear where I drifted this Dodge Hellcat around a dirt oval track in Arizona all day long, dead sideways. It was a blast, and I left and I thought, my god, it all makes sense. Like I went into rov. The show's not scripted.

I was all I want to do is drive fast and crazy and I wanted to be in camera, and by god, now at this vantage point then forty six, I was like, oh, it all makes sense, but certainly it never made sense in route to there. That was a long answer. That was a great I mean that's what podcasts afore, right, so that that was a great

Yeah exactly, Yeah, No, I find that fascinating too. And what I really appreciated where you started off, and it was actually very reassuring for me, which I appreciated, was

I kind of went that too. I went through being a student and a South Asian person in England who had certain aspirations to then living as a monk, and then to leave being a monk, which has a very clear identity shift, and then being like, well I'm a monk, and then I went back into the world of corporate to pay the bills and survive, and in management, and then now in media where we do so much in media, and it's almost like I feel like for a long time I was juggling those two is like, well I'm

married now too, and they all seem to be ms as well, like married, monk, media management, and I go you know which one happen, and it was the same thing as you said that I really feel now I'm at a point where I've just accepted that I really enjoyed the paradoxical experience of my life, and I appreciate and acknowledge each part of those experiences equally. I'm really grateful that I got to have my time in the monastery and what I learned from there, which is foundational

to the work I do today. But at the same time, I love the fact that now I'm in media and I get to apply it in a completely different direction. And I love being married. I really enjoyed the learning process of what that looks like. And then the management

part has been so useful from a professional standpoint. And it's like you said, you get to being you, And I guess my question is like, how long did it take you or what was some of the inner workings of learning to accept and give yourself the permission to be all of them, none of them, some of them, a part of them. Because I still feel we live in an industry where, or not even in an industry, we live in a world where it's like, well, what

do you do? And it's your job title, and I was saying I was saying to my patam day to day. I was like, I would be so much happier if they just put my mission as my lower third and not my title, because my title doesn't really say much about who I really am, And so does that make sense? It does? And in fact, I'm always a little curious how embracing people are of a title that they also know millions of other people have as a title. So

what does it now? Granted I just said I'm a father, which is you know whatever, a third of the country. But I'll give you the one that is a pet peeve of mine is like people on their social media, it'll say liberal or conservative, Democrat or Republican? Am I? I guess I'm just I'm too insatiably in search of being unique for that to be satisfying for me. Like,

what could it say about me? If all I've done is is carved three hundred million people into two groups, it'd be no different than writing mail, Like who am I I'm mail? What does that mean? You know anything? Where half of the country can fit into it. I don't know why that's of interest in describing yourself, but me embracing me. I through insecurity, of course, but but through insecurity, I chose a very specific route through junior high high school, which was I'm punk rock, I'm a skateboarder,

I'm a snowboarder, I'm punk rock. Well and again stemming from insecurity, which is I couldn't. I didn't think I could pull off the other thing. Like I was looking at everyone in there. They didn't have Coloux, they could have this perfect middle part. I couldn't do it. Their parents could afford Jordan's mind couldn't. So I couldn't do that.

And this was a kind of a weird I know what it read as it reads this confidence, which is great because I actually kind of backed myself into being confident. So I was, you know, mohawk crazy clothes, combat boots because I wanted to send a message like I'm not playing that game, so you can't evaluate me by those rules.

That was what the insecurity part was. And then I got like positive reinforcement for that, and that kind of you know, that's remained a little bit in me that when I wrote it didn't take me any time to find my voice. I just I wrote as if no one was ever going to read it, and if they did read it and didn't like it, I didn't care. Acting was different because I certainly was like I had heroes. I wanted to be Bill Murray or Chevy Chase or Will Ferrell of that took a minute. And that's an

interesting story in itself. Is I happened to do a movie that was entirely improvd just before I got cast on Parenthood, so I couldn't have done a character. Maybe other people could have. I couldn't have done a character and have improvs. Since serily an entire movie. I just thought, I got I'm just gonna have to be as close to myself as I can so that I can speak

of my own voice in improv. And that was a kind of breakthrough for me because I watched it and I was really kind of happy with it, and other people thought it was really good, and it's what made me then go, I'm enough. I don't have to have an accent. I don't have to have this. I don't have to I'm enough, which is a hard thing to get to. I remember reading I quote this all the time on my show, which is I was reading an interview with Nicholas Cage, who I was obsessed with as

a kid. He was my actor, That's who I would want to be. He was nuts, and he said it was not until he did the movie Face Off and he in travoled to swap faces so inevitably they had to do impersonations of each other. And he said he didn't know until he watched John travol To do an impersonation of him that he actually was unique enough to

even impersonate. And I thought, how could Nicholas Cage, one of the most unique performers, have not known that until he witnessed that, And so it can happen to people, right, we don't ever feel like we're enough. And then the other thing I think that happened in my life, which is significant, is that I joined a twelve step program eighteen years ago to get sober, and I got a ton of practice talking about my shortcomings, my failures, my fears.

And it's a unique experience because it was met always with understanding, no judgment, compassion, unity, And I don't know how you could get those hours of practice without that. I'm just not sure. So I think that program helped me just be me and not be terribly worried about it. Yeah, yeah, no, I agree with you. I don't think there's a substitute for that practice that can. I ask you a question, Yeah,

are you just a romantic? Because at first I think the commitment to go be a month for three years is insane. I loved worldly pleasures. I wanted to make love to everyone. I wanted to drive fast cars and have people give me approval. So at first glance, it would be an impossible endeavor for me. I just kind of do and I assumed too. There's a hierarchy and

people tell you what to do. I would hate that, but there's also a part of me that would have a romantic fantasy about what it would have been and that it would have been a bold in historic decision, Like I had that type of ego where I would have liked, I'm going to do something no one would do. So what on earth got you to leave the worldly world and be willing to do that? Yeah? No, thank

you for that question. I think for me, if I if I'm honest about it at the time, and it's something you actually touched on a couple of seconds ago, which we haven't dived into yet, but it was I was at the same and same as you. I resonate with that. I loved approval, validation, I had lots of girlfriends, I was you know, all the rest of it. I've borne a raise in London, so lived a very normal life and I the only thing that was fascinating to

me at the time was rags to Richest stories. So my dad had started giving me biographies because he was scared I wasn't reading because I never liked fiction growing up. I've I love nonfiction. I've never been a huge fiction fan.

And my dad was the person who kind of either he knew that or didn't know that, but he started giving me biographies of famous people, autobiographies of people, and so I read like Gandhi and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. And this was all in my teens, and so I was fascinated by people who shifted culture or made differences in the world. But I was also fascinated by money and CEOs and entrepreneurs and athletes and actors. And so I would go and this is before podcasting

and YouTube. So I would go to my college and here speakers who were invited to talk about their careers or their journeys, so you'd go to a physical event, sit in the audience and listen. And I met at that time so many different people. And one of the person that I heard speak was the monk that I ended up writing about my book, and his name's Gonadas, and I ended up spending time with him. And here's the thing, Decks, that it was like at that age

in my life. I was eighteen years old. I'd met people who were rich, I'd met people who were famous. I'd heard people who were successful and beautiful and attractive, but I don't think i'd met anyone who was truly happy and content. Now whatever that meant at age eighteen, right, Like, not that I knew what that even meant, but at least at that age, and from him, I felt a sense of And by the way, there was nothing externally attractive about this man. He was Indian, he had a

thick Indian accent, he was wearing robes. But I was so attracted to him, and I was like, what is it? Why am I attracted to this guy? And I didn't even want to go. I mean, I don't know how much you know the story, but I've told this often. I told my friends who invited me to the event, that I would only go if we went to a bar afterwards, because I was just uninterested in monks or spirituality. And so I want you said content man. I was

not in search of contentment. Neither was I. I want to gay us, and neither was I. I was a rebel. I'd been, you know, just to give you a bit of a background, I was. I'd been suspended from school three times. I was a rebel. I was involved in all sorts of the wrong circles. And here I am randomly at a monk, talking and thinking this is going to be the biggest waste of time. But I felt an attraction, and I said to him, I asked one

really quick question too. Of course, I don't know what the they say for lack of it, I don't know exactly Are you Indian or I am Indian? Yes, yes, India, Okay. I don't know what the second or third generation Indian experience is in London. I only know somewhat what it's like here in the States from Monica, of course, of course, yeah, I guess my first thought is were you running from or embracing your ethnicity? At that age, I would say

that London. I feel that the South Asian community or Indian community in London is not that my parents had this, but by the time I was there, it's more embraced into culture. So I would say in my primary school, elementary school, I was bullied for being Indian, but then by the time I was in high school, I was surrounded by Indians and so that was kind of like my experience where I would I would say I was pretty neutral. We weren't doing either because you were kind

of embraced but kind of bullied. It was kind of in between. That makes sense because I'm just imagining how that speaker come to Monica's College University of Georgia's. She would have run for the first she would have been like, don't I don't want anyone to connect my otherness with this person's otherness. Yeah, that wasn't at play, Okay, I was just curious about Yeah, no, no, it's a good

question anyway. But yeah, that was the reason that I would say that it was as simple as like what you were saying about race car driving or Will Ferrell and I want to dive into that idea. It was as simple as this person at this point in my life is the most inspirational person I've met, and I want to know how they there. So I'm going to study their life. I'm going to spend time with them

if I have the opportunity. And after doing that for three years where I would spend my vacations and Christmas Holidays with him in India and spending time within, I was just like, this is what I want to do with my life. So and then I went and actually

lived as Among for three years. So it was study, it was research, it was intrigue, it was curiosity, and it wasn't you feel like he had a magic he still does to this day, Like yeah, he's he's still Among, He's amazing and he's he still has a magic about him, which which hasn't worn off for me for sure, because it's interesting because there can even be within something as a stew or as simplistic, there can still be some

aggrandize man like uh, I want more? Right, So I think all the things you listed that you were previously interested in is similar to me, like I want more. I've had this experience. I want I want, I really want it all. Like whatever the is an option on this through planet Earth. I want to experience it, so I can imagine if I thought like, oh my god, this person has magic. Yeah, you know, I remember hearing

crazy stories. I'm sure they were just stereotypical what would you call them, like Arcadian fantasy archetypes of spiritual people where it's like, oh, they can soar with an eagle, and when I will let myself imagine, like I'd dedicate myself to something if I could embody an eagle emply around. You know, I'm bummed there's no hot women and really cool cars on the scene, but I might trade that off to be able to transcend this body. Yeah. Absolutely,

And that's what I think it was right. It was the I was so deeply in all of someone's presence and energy and I didn't even know what those words meant at that time, but it was such a deep attraction that my attraction for other things was dimmed in the light of that. And that's what I realized that it's not that those other attractions just disappeared, it's just that they would dim or in light of that attraction.

I guess with you, what were you referring to then when you were talking about like having people you look up to or when you mentioned set of names, and I think there was something in there around that idea that we all have of wanting more but also seeing more in others. Was that where were you going with that thought? Well, there's a bunch of them. So like then, they're always if you really look at it, they're probably always linked to insecurities of mine and or some pride

in something I think I have. So with Nicolas Cage, I think I was so drawn to him as an actor because I was like, this guy, is he's fine looking? You know what I'm saying. He's not. He's not gorgeous, he's not unattractive, he's just fine. I think he's getting by because he's tall, and so I thought maybe I could do that too. I was not the cutest kid in my school ever. I wasn't, you know, but I was tall. That kind of worked enough. And he was certainly nuts like he was just he would make crazy

choices in movies. He'd do crazy characters, and I thought, Okay, that seems achievable for what I'm working with. And then like an aspirational front, you had like Bill Murray, who I don't think there's ever been a performer I've seen that is as comfortable in their skin as Bill Murray is, like whatever you felt about the person you studied with. I look at him and I was like, mot I still do, And I think, God, if I could feel as comfortable in my body as he seems to, that

must be you know, elating experience. Yea. And so he was maybe more aspirational. And then Will Farrell was more just like the greedy pig in me, like, oh, this guy dominates. You can't hold a candle if you're in a scene with him, you might as well close your eyes the whole time. No one's gonna look at you. You know, you don't even need to be in your wardrobe. He's just so dominant and hysterical. And then in winning every movie's opening number one, I know what he's getting paid,

you know. So all that like greedy pig side of me was attracted to maybe his status, that's maybe a great way to say it. Both a total admiration for a skill level which I don't even possess, but I think the status appealed to me, like, oh, that would be it if you could walk into a studio and go, hey man, I don't know to tell you here's the idea. It's me in the seventies as a newscaster, and that's all you got to say. And they're like, yes, here's

the checkbook. That's like the dream yea. So maybe that Yeah, So all sorts of facets of my personality probably drove me to admire or try to you know, aim towards those people. Yeah, and with and with the twelve step program and that journey too, Like what was it like

that first time? And my more understanding of that journey comes through one of my dear friends, Russell Brand, because he speaks about it often as well, and me and him share the same meditation teacher, and so that's how I got to know him a long time ago, and so I that's that's my only knowledge of it. So apart from that, I, you know, I've only learned about it through him. But with that experience, what was it

like that first time? Because I love what you said it It was so interesting to me because I've never heard anyone say that. But the practice of having vulnerable conversations about your flaws in a space that is non judgment based and non critical. What was it like that first time when you saw that happening around you, Like did you look at it and go, well, this can't be real, or because we've never experienced that, or did you look at it and go, oh, this is easy.

I can be an open book, like how did that feel for the first time, because I'd say most people have never really been in a room that looks like that unless they are going on to twelve step program. Right, that's such a huge question. First of all, my father got sober when I was fourteen, so I had some loose knowledge of it. I had gone to meetings with him. I knew a lot about it. That in its own way became a hurdle to me because that was virtually

like my Catholicism. We were in a religious family. I know no one are people like me don't want to just take the religion they were handed, you know, It's just I don't know so that it was a hurdle in some ways. But when I went there, and this again is about me, I can't really answer to why it appeals to other people. But I have this deep skepticism about people in general because of my childhood. There's a lot of distrustful people. I have a really overly

healthy skepticism. So if I had walked into AA and there was a leader of A, I would have been out. If there was a way to move up in AA, I would have been out. If there was any money associated with AA, I'd be out. Because as soon as those things are on the table, I'm obsessed with intentions. I cannot feel safe and comfortable until I think I've accurately evaluated your intentions. So the magic of that place,

to me is almost structural. I don't know how this thing has existed for eighty years without a president or a you know, a CEO or anybody. Because had I gone and there was a leader right and I heard other men share vulnerably, I would have immediately thought, Oh, they're trying to impress this guy. So what I deduced is that this guy likes vulnerability. This guy's probably perverse in some way, or maybe he wants leverage on people, or he wants collateral. That's why he's encouraging everyone to

dump their secrets. So I couldn't have done it. I mean, just a simple fact that no one there can tell you whether you're right or wrong. All they can do, and all I can do is share my experience my strength and my hope. That's all it is. So I think just that neutral, no one's incentivized, no money, no hierarchy. That's why it was magic for me. Yeah, that's special.

That's really amazing because when you think about that, as I said before, that's super rare in the world for people to have a space like that to go to. I don't know what it is, to be honest, because even the Church I can be really skeptical of that. I think obviously, I think there's there's some continuum of religions world religions where less our hierarchical, less our money driven. But certainly as soon as you've got an intermediary between

this book, everyone believes in in you. I don't like that. I'm out for any any system that has someone that has to interpret a book we can all read. Yeah, yeah, I don't trust that. Why would that be necessary? Again, But that's I can own my own baggage. That that's you know, I'm a distrusting person out of the gates, how have you. I'm fascinated by that, and and I don't I don't again, I don't, um, I don't think that's just a baggage thing I think there's there's triggers

and there's baggage. Right, there's both, Like there's it's not that what you're seeing is not also true. There is truth in what you're seeing, and then there's truth in

the trigger. So it's it's both hands. But when I look at what, I'm really interested in knowing how you, as a more skeptical person or untrust person, have found an ability to build trust in a relationship with your wife in a relationship I don't And again I don't know you that way, So I'm projecting and you can fill in the right details well, but business partners, with people in your life, with even directors you work with, who are giving you advice on how to portray a character,

like can you walk us through a journey of trust from the Dak Shepherd perspective of going from being someone who has skepticism a healthy skepticism. As you said, that's a great question, because I'm most comfortable telling you about things I've overcome, like I'm happy to tell you I haven't drank in eighteen years, Like I'll tell you all about how I figured out how to do that, right. I also want to say, and this is why your choice to be a monk perplexes me because I was

only open to that radical change. Let me just say, there's a bunch of gods mentioned a hold on in that big book, and that's a big trigger for me. But I wanted to die less than I want to say God, it may be the only thing to be honest, So you know that it's a great motivator for change when you actually come to terms with the fact that the other option's death. So every other option for me is probably a little less painful than death, So I

start from there. I'm not someone who's quick to listen to other people and believe that what they said is working. It's really newly being explored. Like I'm just newly in therapy to actually confront this is do who do I really trust? What allows me to trust people is not healthy? Is actually I think I'm wrong sometimes, But I'm actually very very good at assessing intention because I've lived this

way for so long. I'm pretty good that walking into a room and figuring out what everyone in there's motive is. And there are a lot of motives that don't trigger me, so I don't mind. Like you know, it gets tricky when you're I hate this word, but famous. If you're on TV, there's going to be a dynamic around you with how people act towards you, and you can find yourself question you're like, oh, does this person really like me?

Are they just trying to perhaps get in my circle so they can elevate their own thing, And then somehow you come out on the other side is like, that's not even the right question. Ask is this relationship beneficial to me? Do I enjoy it? If this person ends up getting the thing they want? Does that affect me in any way? No? Doesn't, And do I enjoy them? Like I gotta get out of Sometimes I can recognize the intention and then just step over it, like and

it doesn't matter. I have intentions. We all have intentions. But there are intentions I don't mind, and there's ones that I mind. But with my wife, there was a super super specific thing which was my family was single mom, three kids. The way you showed you loved each other was to never ever be a drain on one another. That was the ultimate way is to be self sufficient. We were all overworked, underfunded, and then what you could do is never suck on anyone else. So when you

get sick in my house, no one cares. And that was not Christen's experience, right. So there was one time in particular, like they were kind of stacking up, and she said, will you get me a water? We're both sitting on the couch now. If I'm standing next to the sink and you say get me a water, that makes sense. But the notion that I would get up off the couch and give you a water when you two are next that was I had to bring it up.

I was like, I'm sorry, I don't. This is crazy to me that you would ask me to do something that would take me just as much effort as you, and you're the one that's thirsty. I'm not thirsty. And she's like, well, god, oh, my family, that's how we do it. Like some days you have energy and you don't mind getting everyone you make the dinner. Everyone else is tired, and then the other days you're tired, they make the dinner. It's all a symbiotic and it all works.

And I'm like trying to buy into this. So I'm actually trying to figure out, No, is she just lazy? And like I'm setting a pattern in this relationship where I'm gonna wait on her hand and that's off the table. Yeah, And I honestly, I had to ask myself the question, is this person out to harm me? Or do I truly believe this is a good person and this is just how she operates? Yeah, And I don't know that I really ever asked myself. I forced myself to think of it in that way, and I concluded, and this

was like fourteen years ago, She's a good person. She's gonna do things that I think are weird and blah blah blah. But ultimately, my diagnosis, my verdict is this is a good person and I'm gonna I'm gonna learn to work through all those other things because I'm gonna make that conclusion now. Now, whether she is or not, it kind of doesn't matter. I decided that yes, and that has allowed me to cohabitate with her for a

very long time. Which is not to say I won't think she's out to destroy me sometimes, because I also laps under that of course you will. Of course you will, And I think that's a healthier way to make it. I love what you said, though, though, because I've often I've never really had this conversation with anyone before, and I think the same. I think I have a strong intention radar, and I am highly aware of people's intentions in my periphery and not I think I've had it

for a long time. And I don't think I've ever had this conversation with anyone before, because I've never heard anyone actually say that. And when you said that, I was wondering, how do you what are the things you're looking out for when you are because I think that's something a lot of people struggle with, right I think a lot of people are listening to us right now would say, well, Dax and Jay, like I'd never know, Like I thought this person was amazing and then they

screwed me over. Or you know, this person was like my business partner and we were building and then all of a sudden they changed. And I'm wondering whether you would say, actually, no, I could tell that intention was always there, It's just that it manifested later. Yeah, talk to me how you assess intentions so that our audience can think about that too for themselves. Well let's start with Okay, so you just said you got bullied in elementary school. Yeah, so you were in situations I'm sure

where you were misled. You thought someone was your friend, and then all of a sudden they turned their back on you because these other dudes who were cooler and to elevate or lower themselves, right, Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you a specific story, because it's as soon as you said that, this memory came like shooting back. So I was the dorky, geeky, overweight Indian kid in elementary school and the toughest kid in school became my best

friend for some reason, I have no idea why. And so Jay and Ian Ian was his name, and Ian became my best friend at school, and he would protect me from the bullies and he would defend me. And I don't know. I still don't know why I should ask him. I know I have him as a Facebook friend, so I need to go and ask him a why. And so he would really protect me and defend me, and I never felt an ego. I was like, wow,

like he that's so nice of him. And then what happened is that one of the girls told him when we got older, I think we're in like fourth grade, yeah, probably at fourth grade, and one of the girls who was kind of dating him or whatever dating looks like. In the fourth grade, she said to him. She goes, well, you know, Jay's been talking crap about you, and that wasn't true. I would I would never do that. It's not my vibe. And she's for some reason. I don't know what it was. I have no idea why she

told him. She was like, Jay's been talking crap about you, and just so you know, I wanted you to be the first to know. And you know he's been doing it. I don't know this conversation's happened. All of a sudden, I see my best friend at school storm out of the canteen walk right up to me while I'm playing football soccer with a bunch of my friends onto the big field that we had at school, and he punches me in the face. He rips my shirt, pushes me, punches me in the face again. I've got I'm on

the floor going in, what is wrong with you? He's just like punching me away in the fourth grade and afterwards, I remember the most embarras something. My mom drives me to his mum's house off to school for him to apologize to me. Anyway, when you see a move right there, right yeah, when you said that, that that was the first member. I've never shared that member anyway, that was the first thing that came to my mind and anyway, so I will give you back the intentions thing. Let's go well

and without getting bogged down. And you know, my trauma off just you know, I was molested at a young age. And so once that happens to you, and it's only one of many things that happened to me, you have to recognize that your worldview where people are generally nice and kind and helpful, is incomplete. Yeah, that there are other people who are acting one way to you and building trust with you because they have an ulterior motive. I also had a slew of stepdads. Some of them

were terrible, you know. So once you recognize that there are people, now I think I'm skewed in how many people there are, but there are sheeps and wolves, and once you learn there are wolves, you know, you become pretty preoccupied with it. So, I mean, it's a weird thing to pass on to people what they should think about, but I mean, in the simplest sense, you should be able to tell yourself what the people around you want. You should be able to recognize what people how do

you know what they want? Well, what do they talk about? Who do they hate? That's always a real big clue into what they want. People generally hate people who have what they want. They think it's some other thing, but in reality, they're jealous, they feel out class, maybe they don't have the talent to be this person. So they pick the four things that are discussing about them and they go on incessantly about those things. So you can

pretty much discern what people want. I think, and then you just have to ask yourself, do I think them wanting that is going to get in the way of this friendship? Is it going to get in a way of this relationships? Am I going to be someone that triggers them because I have what I want? That's an important thing to know. Again, it doesn't have to lead to because again, no one's clean. We all want something.

I don't claim to not want anything. Of course, if you and I hung out, like your wife is maybe the most striking person I've at least ever seen on Instagram. I mean, she's so absurdly beautiful. I will want her to validate me if we meet in some way. I'm not asking her to cheat. I'm not gonna cheat, but I can tell you I need to leave there thinking, Yep, I made an impression on her. Now you may chalk

that up too. If this guy's gonna put on a good show for us, which will be the case, I'm gonna put on out a show for you, and you may go, she's not gonna cheat on me, and he's not gonna cheat on his wife, So all's fun. I'm gonna be the beneficiary of this. But that's that's what I will want in that situation. Yeah, it can be a name, it can be benevolent, it can be anything. But I do I think you're you'd be naive to

think that everyone doesn't want something. Yeah, and then you're kind of grading their history to their history of you know, breaking norms and laws to get what they want. Now you're in a totally different bracket as well. Yeah. The reason the reason why I think that that is such a brilliant answer is because I think we still live in a binary world where we generally believe, of course

I'm completely generalizing right now. This is not statistically proven, but we're not trying to do that, is that we generally believe that people either want something or they don't want something, and you yeah, and you yeah, and you just established you're like, well, actually, Jay, pretty much everyone wants something, and it's more important to accept that and then figure out what that is rather than live in this world of like I can trust this person because

they don't want anything, and I can trust this person. I can't trust this person because they do want something, right, Because that, Yeah, I think that that. I think the kind of pragmatic or a productive outcome is generally when you find people that want the exact same thing as you, and it's not finite. Yeah. So if it's a role in one movie and you both want that, that's right for trouble. Yeah, But if we both want something we can both have. This is a great foundation for a

friendship because this is what we will do. This will be the activity. So like you'll find, as I said, I can talk from morning tonight. My friends love hypotheticals and in moral issues, and like I want to be invigorated and I want to play. And if I find someone who else loves to play, well that's awesome. That's

a great foundation. Yeah, yeah, definitely, And I think I think what I value in reflecting back of what you're saying, is I just like and I think this was part of the monk thing and actually more becoming that allowed

me to be this way. More was I just like exposing myself with as much randomness as possible, or like extremes as possible, or different people as possible, because I just feel like I would never if you ask me what I wanted to be when I was five years old or fifteen or even now, when I look back at it, I would never have said the word monk. I didn't even know that the word existed. I didn't have any affinity towards it. So I start thinking now,

I'm like, well, wait a minute. If I could never conceive that because I'd never met someone who was that, then how many ideas exist in the world that I can't conceive because I have not met someone who has played around with that idea or that thought. And so when I when I reach out to someone like you and and and I look at we don't I don't know. I don't think we have a lot in common apart from having a podcast. Oh, I bet we have a turning common. We probably have. We probably have a fair

bit in common but at least I don't know. Maybe maye, maye. I'm looking forward to figuring out what we did is what do we what do we count as in as in common like, No, I'm not I'm not a brown person living in a white world. I'm not I'm not a monk. I'm not. I don't live in wherever you live. Ah hooie whoie. The fact that we both have shows where we talk to people probably says way more about you and I than any of those other things. You know. Yeah, but but I love what you're saying because I don't

personally give advice. It's not how AA works. All I do is I share who I am, and you hear something in there that you think you might apply it. Great, But I'm not one to tell people, and I have nothing prescriptive to say to anyone other I will often say, though, I have been very grateful that my identity has been flexible. Yeah, and I think I do think a lot of people could benefit because you just made the greatest point, which

is you didn't know a monk was an option. So if you don't know what every single option is, don't be so locked into the one thing, because there might be a better option. I didn't know what There was no such thing as a podcaster. Yea, So twenty years ago I couldn't have aimed at being a podcaster because there wasn't one. Yeah, but my identity is flexible enough that it's like when when I'm in the river and it's flown in my direction, I'll stay in it, you know. Yeah, No,

I'm glad that resonated, yeah for me. For me, that's that's what it is. So I'm always trying to find like, oh, even even though so you know, a while ago, I realized that sometimes there were necessarily not newer ideas, but they were deeper ideas, and so I was like, let me stop looking for a new idea, but let me look for how I can deep, deeply understand an idea.

Because and that's what I'm hearing from you when you're churning stuff with your friends, how do you how have you found a way to be playful with the people around you where you're able to entertain different thoughts without feeling forced to pick a side, defend, or make someone think a certain way. Because I think that's a healthy conversation to have. Because I love the idea of So I, in one sense, I have a very clear philosophy of life because of my time as a monk. I think

there are certain tenets that I ascribed to. But I also think that that time gave me an openness to accept that this idea should be able to be upgraded at any time. So if someone can give me something to upgrade my philosophy of life, I should accept it, because it would be ridiculous to say, no, I know the truth and everything else is false. So I like entertaining two ideas. How have you encouraged and how do people around you learn to entertain two ideas at once

that are seemingly contradictory but allow them both to live? Yeah? I would imagine you and I both love that. You know, one of the crowning measurements of intelligence is being able to hold to conflicting ideas and conflicting feelings and emotions and bored out of my mind. If I don't have some conflict in my head of thought, of emotion, all that stuff, I just am bored. I mean it might just be as simple as me being an you know, an activity freak. Whatever it is, I will say, my

mother was genius. I think I had two pretty informative experiences that have led me to where I'm at, which is one is my mother. This would always happened. Two kids would die in a drunk driving accident in my town, and the town would be furious at the driver and the poor or maybe the victim of the other thing. My mother are always her first thing would be like, oh, the poor parents of both those kids, that poor kid driving. You know, they handed out cigars for both those little

kids when they were born, and they're both here. She'd feel bad for perpetrators of crimes as much as she did the victims of crime. That's a bizarre I don't know where she got that, but I think she always forced me to imagine that there was suffering on all sides of it. No one's like that. That was nobody's best day. And I carried that and I like that, and it drives my wife nuts. I forced myself to imagine how the you know whatever, they too are a victim.

And then secondly, I majored in anthropology, So anthropologies is a great way to break your thinking because you walk into it with something. Let's do the hottest button topic in anthropology, like infanticide. The Inuit used to kill their babies after they were born. This is like, there's no way you're going to accept that this isn't the most amoral, horrific thing ever. But you are required to learn about what leads to that. Don't write it off as evil,

don't write off as good or bad. Why is it they would do that. An anthropologist's job is just to literally find out how they live their life and why they live their life, what is their reason for living their life? And then you come to find out, well, wow, in their culture, only the men can hunt. Okay, but you could argue about whether that's right or wrong, but that is the case. You also then find out unlike most hunting and gathering societies, there's no gathering. It's ice.

The only thing they're eating is will blubber. So their culture is also set up that if your child doesn't grow up to provide food for you, you're going to die. So you have to have a boy as your first child. You're then free to have a gale. I'm not saying I condone it, but it's like, there's so much more to this story than infanticide the headline, and there are societies set up in ways that certain things make sense to those people. So cultural relativism is what it's broadly labeled,

that way of thinking. And if you can just forget about the conclusion for a minute, can forget about the verdict, the judgment, you might actually learn a load about something. And I just I think I've taken that with me. That may be the best thing I took out of there is just imagining that my way isn't the only way, that there are some other ways that feel very wrong to me, and that might work, might be optimal in places.

And then I just read this book. I don't know if you've heard of this book, The Weirdest People on Earth of yours. I have not. That sounds amazing. I need to get that. It is mind blowing. It's it's about how different the brains of people in the West are. They are different. Starting with the simplest thing, Okay, I think I can roll this out in one second. So Martin Luther comes along. He says, there's no way that a priest can tell you how to communicate with God.

You can communicate with God step oneto. That is, you gotta learn to read. You gotta learn to read this Bible. So he goes on this huge mission to make different populations literate. He's hugely successful. Prior to that, you had like top literacy, right maybe in Germany was five percent. Martin Luther comes around. Now you've got like eighty percent of people reading because of Martin Luther. Now, when you read, that changes your actual brain, the structure of your brain.

It occupies such a bizarre it's such a bizarre thing to train your brain to do that. You lose some things. So when people learn to read, they lose some facial recognition skills, they can read less emotions. You know, it altered our brains. So if you start with the knowledge or the acceptance that our brains don't even work the same around the world, Yeah, how then could all of our conclusions work the same? How can we believe our

conclusions are right, our conclusions are correct for this brain. Yeah, I don't know that they're they're they're accurate conclusions in Samoa. You know, it's I just I have such little faith in that any of us really know. And I'm comfortable with that. That's a big, I think distinction. Some people are very uncomfortable not knowing I'm very comfortable not knowing.

And I'll tell you if I think I get asked this in interviews, like what have you kind of learned from having interviewed two hundred and fifty academics or professors? You know, because it's split it's celebrities, but then it's always academics, professors. Whatever. My conclusion is anything you believe in, at best, it might approach eighty percent correct. Yeah, you know, I'll have an expert on they'll lay it out and

oh my god, they cracked it. That's it. And then a month later I have their adversary on that person lays it out. I'm like, my god, this the scale's got it. I mean, we are so flashlight in a cave with everything we know, and I just I don't know how. I don't. I don't think anyone should feel so certain about anything. I guess it is my conclusion. Yeah, yeah, And and that's that hard pot because it's like you need some sets indeed to make decisions, and then you

need the unsetin ty to be adaptable. And that's where we all at turn. I should have the humility to say it's a probability. Of course, I'm gonna make a decision based on this probability. And that's about all you're gonna say, other than I drop this rock and it'll fall anything outside of gravity. You're probably making a probability analysis. Absolutely. And I love what you said about what your mum

had that belief growing up. I mean that was remarkable, Like genuinely that is that is such a amazing thing to grow up around. I wonder these ideas, and I know you and Christ speak so much, so openly about parenting. I'm like, have you have you are there some of these ideas which are not like? What I love about this is as we always hear that that famous quote of uh, you know, we should learn how to think, not what to think, And these are all ways how

to think, right, these are how to think. We're not telling You're not saying this is what you should think about. How how are you introducing or are you introducing some of these concepts or other concepts to your kids in parenting? And how's what's been a successful or unsuccessful transference of ideas? Um, I'm incessantly doing that because I don't I don't have a goal for them. I have preferences, but I don't have a goal for them to not believe in Jesus.

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God. Personally. It makes my life probably easier with them if I didn't have to go to church with them all the time to be with them, but I actually don't care. All I want them to do is take in every side of everything. I just want them to be hard working in their thought. I want them to hear both sides with an open mind and an open heart and then do their synthesis. That's all I'm really looking for. In fact, this situation presents itself. So we have family

members that are very religious concerned. I'm not baptizing our children. I think performing maybe a baptism in the living room when I wasn't looking, I mean, sincerely, I think that might have happened. Always bringing the Bible for kids, all this stuff, and initially I'm like, well, don't please, don't

pass that on to these little beautiful kids. But then I thought, you know what, I was exposed to all that, and I came to whatever conclusion I came to, They're going to be just as able to do whatever they feels right to them. Who cares they can take on any information. I think critical thought will get them to where they need to be. And the only guardrails I asked, I said, you know what, indoctrinate them? Please don't introduce the concept of hell or sin. Those are the only two.

I do not want. A little kid room and eighteen at night, whether or not they're going to end up in a fiery pit, I don't think that's useful for them. So I just put like two little tiny parameters. Luckily those people obliged and that they've left that part out, and you know, and then we talk about it, and to me, they seem like they're thinking about every angle of everything. And I guess as a parent, the thing I've learned to do is there's all these opportunities. They're

so tempting to teach your kids something. Always they're always right in front of you. I feel like my life revolves around atheism. It doesn't. But this happens to be two in a row stories. We have really close friends. They're very Christian. I love it for them. I'm very supportive of it. There are children played together their children. My daughter was over there and they prayed before dinner, and she felt really uncomfortable. She felt nervous, She didn't

know what to do. They all knew what to do. She felt out of sorts. She then got nervous that the one child was going to not like her because she didn't believe the same way. And i' this on a ride home, and MY first thought is to go, well, look at Amy and Ryan and Chris. Your mom and I were best friends and we think differently, right, I want to like educate her through this. And then I stopped and I just go like, oh my god, I

remember that so much, Lincoln, Oh my god, I remember that. Yeah, I would be at my friend and I just start listing these times that I was in that situation, how awkward I felt. And then I felt like Judge and I was nervous. They thought I was going to hell and all these things. And I honestly think in that moment that that is the decision I'm proud of about. It's like, I don't need to teach her this. I need her to see this functional human being has gone

through all the things she's gone through. Yes, that's all I gotta do is make her not feel alone in these experiences, because that will somehow make her confident. Oh, but it'll all work out. Yeah, So I've tried. My heart is to shift from the lesson and more just sharing the experience with her. Yeah, I love that. I'm so glad you shad that. My wife and I don't have kids yet, so definitely definitely part of the place.

So tempting. You want to shortcut them, I do. I want to shortcut them to a fourth step in AAA. This can really you can figure out your fears with this thing. Go. My mom did with me. She just she would always relate to me, and that just I liked. I like not feeling alone in my experience the most. Yeah, they need to be able to create a twelve step kids version. Yall believe me, they'll get it. They're gonna

get it through Osmoses yea. And yeah, and I think you do that publicly too, right, Like I know that last year you you know you you spoke about your relapse and you were very vulnerable about it and you're open about it, and I want to I mean, I guess, are you kids at an age yet where they're able to understand your public profile and external profile are not? Really? They don't kind of understand that, Like, are you dad and this or is it just are you dad? And

and how does that affect them? You know what's really funny is, well, first of all, they know I'm in AA like that I leave in the evenings certain days of the week, and where are you going? I'm one? Hey, what's that? Oh? I'm an alcoholic? What's that? Oh? If I start drinking, watch out, can't stop. I'm ninth generation alcoholic. You know, they know the whole skinny. They know I relapsed.

But what's interesting is the question you're asking is the question I thought about NonStop because my experience was my parents weren't famous. My parents also didn't have money. So my obsessions are like, like what is this doing to them? Blah blah blah. And the truth is, and I'm seeing it, is like it's their childhood. There's no such thing like we are inclined to think of their experience relative to

another kids, but that's almost irrelevant. Their experience is relative to their own experience and to their maybe sisters experience. The notion that they're feeling something different because for me, when I imagine what being the child of famous people would have been like, is a very different feeling definitely yea, but there is no difference to them. Yeah, so it's like, yeah, some times we're driving and mom's on a billboard, they're not impressed with mom. Mom's mom who didn't let them

stay up till ten last night. It doesn't matter. The trickier part is in public. I'm very protective of them. So if you meet me and I'm by myself, I'm a pretty nice guy. If you meet me and I'm out with my kids, it's not your time. It's my kid's time. And I'll tell you that it's not time to take a picture with me, it's not time to talk to me about a movie or about a podcast. It is my children's time right now, and that's who's time it is. So I don't mind having a boundary

when it's for them. I have a harder time having a boundary for myself. And I actually enjoy often talking to people who listen to the podcasts or whatnot. But I have to explain that to them, right. They can't just see me be very firm with people when they know me to be kind and open hearted to people who don't want something. This goes back to the intention. Yeah. Yeah,

so if we're bumping into strangers at a restaurant. We're both ordered the steak and it's delicious, and I lean over and go, my god, these they can cook a t bone here, huh. Like there's that version of dad, and then there's the version at the airport where it's like no, thank you, thank you, Like if I can see a camera coming out, it's like, you cannot photograph my kids. So I have to then tell them I'm very protective of you. This is why I don't want

your time to be robbed with your dad. I'm gonna always protect that. I don't want pictures of you on the internet. I don't want people to know what you look like and go to your school, like I don't want this is what's happening. So I just I assume, rightly or wrongly, that they can comprehend everything, and I just tell them. I tell them exactly what's happening in the world when they're in it. Again from my baggage, my number one issue is being deceived. I hate being deceived.

I hate people who try to deceive me. It's my number one thing. I hate it. So I just my only commitment is I'm never deceiving my kids. The second thing said, wait, how does Santa Claus get in our chimney? And how's he getting? You said, there's Billy, how many seven billion? He's going to seven billion people? Well, no, he's not going to India because they don't believe in Santa. But why wouldn't you go? And I go, I'm not

gonna do this to you. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna water down the best part of your brain, which is the critical thinking side, which is saying this does not add up. I'm not gonna do it. That that's brilliant. I love that. I'm passionately just taking notes. This is for me, future me. This is genuinely for future me to write some of these notes down. And I'm not I'm not joking. I mean teach them to do something scary. That's my other I believe in that. Like, so, both

my kids ride dirt bikes. They're little girls. My eight year old just got a very large dirt bike and we just went riding. And like you can tell your kids they're capable of anything, you have to give them an opportunity to figure out they're capable of anything. You know, you telling your kid, you could be president one day. Why what have they done to demonstrate that give them an opportunity to be presidential? I am so glad you

said that. I literally was. I was on the front to my friend before we before we connected, and I was saying the same. I was like, he's got a ten year old, and I was saying, and I don't know why I thought of cold plunges, but I did, And I was like, you should take your kid cold plunges. Like I was like, you know, he needs to feel

like he's achieved something, he's conquered something. Because we were talking about this something that's really fascinated me for a long time as I've been trying to at least read, as you were saying, read about children and kids and even just humans. But the idea of fragility and how like overprotecting someone's experience leads to fragility not strength. And I've found that word fragility and fragile so powerful, even

more than weakness or lack of strength or whatever. Like fragility is really interesting because you go, wait a minute, we thought that if we mollycoded and protected and enforced boundaries and barriers that were perfect like laser fields around our kids or around ourselves. That then life would be good. I guess how do you deal with that poking of deceit as you said that was what you hate, as deceit pokes through that uncomfortable barrier that you have with it.

How have you learned to be able to navigate to hell in a healthy way? Well, first off, I just think it's hilarious you said that because we've got our daughters. They do coal plunges. Oh nice. Yeah. And by the way, not because we told them too, because we model it. It's like they see mom and dad get out of the hot tub and go make themselves miserable for ten minutes. They just get curious and then it becomes competitive who's

gonna do it, who's afraid to do it? And then I look and I'm like, my god, these little girls do coal plunges. I think often you're you're you're trying to protect. Let me say this, I had a great head start. One. I'm six and a half years older than my sister. My mom worked nights. I change diapers with the the safety pins and cloth diapers at six and a half years old. So somehow this six and a half year old, did quite a bit of child

rearing and she's alive. Secondly, I'm majored in anthropology. I'd watch all these amazing documentaries. One of them I remember from Papua New Guinea. All the kids that are below six who can't be useful in digging up yams are on their own in the jungle. I'm telling you, they are on their own. There are two year olds falling out of trees. There's a six year old in charge, and they live. So I just walked into it with like, these little things are very resilient. I just I've seen

firsthand they're pretty resilient. So I think I started with a little more confidence in that way. But again, I just think about what moment in time are you delaying this too? So I'm going to handle everything for them? Now? When is it their turn? Because if if eighteens their turn and you send them out into the world, no one in the world's as nice as I am for them, So why is that going to be the optimum time? To fail, to struggle, to be frustrated, to not get help.

I regularly won't help them. It seems like maybe cruelty, and I'll be like, if you want it bad enough, you'll figure out how to do it. But I want competent kids. That's what I want, because I can't go with them everywhere for the rest of their lives to mitigate every conflict. I can't do it. Yeah, even though you'd like to, I would love to. It's my impulse. Yeah, every time they're reaching for something, I want to go grab it. I'm tall. Yeah, it's like one of my

only assets in the house. But no, they got to get a stool, go get something for crying out, can use tools and you can't. And again, they're giving themselves their own confidence. You're not giving it to them. You're not saying, oh, you're so smart, you're so competent. Why are you so competent? But they give it to themselves.

And that you just having that really spoke to me because I think so many kids who or and obviously as adults now who heard that, they actually felt that was something they had to live up to as expectation or an obligation. That it's like, you're so smart, so

now they had to present zero practice. Yeah exactly, exactly and so totally And I love that you kept saying it's something you have to give to yourself, because that's become something that is whenever I talk about that, I really strongly believe that that validation compliments awareness, understanding people can help to a certain degree, but ultimately it needs to come from ourselves. I saw you going about to

say something. I want to let you in a way of digital I was just gonna say it both are true. External validation works, yeah, but it's finite. Yes, So either you have to be on the treadmill of constantly wowing everyone to get the external validation, or you can internally validate yourself and that can be permanent or that can be stable. Yeah. I'm fascinating to ask you this because

I think you'll have a really refreshed perspective. How because you brought this word up earlier, how have you balanced self validation and humility and where did they fit in for you? I'm not saying they're opposites. I'm just wondering how both live in a healthy way for you, because I think I've you know, I think we're living and

I'm interested because of where we've gone. I think we live in a culture right now that's very much like validate the people you love and value, you know, like give tell them that they're smart, and tell them that they're beautiful. And then I come from a spiritual culture where humility was considered the most beautiful quality a human could have, like it was the apex virtue or something correct, but often it led to low self esteem as a misunderstanding of humility, and it led to a you know,

a self self deprecating and self harmful behavior. So I just want to hear your thoughts. Yeah, well it's an incomplete word right. Well, first and foremost of an older friend of mine in the program who often says it's really important to distinguish between humility and humiliation, So like, those aren't the same thing beautiful. And I also think we all observe a ton of faue humility. Yeah, and I'm prone to do it. I'll start feeling guilty that I look, I've been luckier than most people, and I

have some guilt about that. I grew up with people who didn't get so lucky. I feel I have guilts about that, so there can be a faue humility as well. But I think the true humility for me is being honest about my life, which again is a skill I

learned in the twelve step program. If I look at my life and I look at the times I got exactly what I wanted and what it led to, versus the times I got the opposite of what I wanted and what it led to, it would not take a smart person to see the pattern that I'm almost one hundred percent wrong, which is really bothering. Like I'm a podcaster, because I spent two and a half years of my life directing the movie Chips and it didn't do well financially. I didn't know what to do, so I did not

get the outcome I wanted. It led to the thing I'm happiest doing, most proud of ever doing. So there you go. If you would ask X what should happen? I would say, oh, that things should have made two hundred million dollars and I should have made three more, and I should have ultimately made twenty five million dollars to make the third one. That would have been the path. Right, Yeah, it wouldn't have been as good of a path. So

I know I'm wrong. I'm consistently wrong. So I don't have a ton of confidence in my own you know, even though I am I tend to be arrogant, and I have an opinion on everything, but I also know that I'm also likely to have a different opinion. Yeah, I just know this. I've changed my opinion a bazillion times over the years. So I just I try, at least now, to I propose things, I ask questions. I don't.

I try to avoid being definitive about it. I just I wonder aloud, and then often I wonder aloud with another person wondering aloud, and we we we somehow navigate towards something that feels truer. Yeah. I love that. It's just you, I mean Hawkins. You think you're smartest, Stephen Hawkins. Like that guy's been disproven five times by new technology, Like you can't. Can you be the toughest guy in the world. You can't. Mike Tyson got beat eventually. Yeah,

everyone gets beat. Everyone's wrong. Yeah, it's an untenable position to try to take. Yeah, maybe it's my vanity. I'd be too embarrassed to say I know, because I'm sure to be proven wrong publicly. Yeah. No, absolutely, time Time is undefeated. And then we hear about timeless realms and then you go, oh, wait, times defeat too, and so you know, yeah, yeah, black holes are supposed to end time exactly exactly said practically, But Dex, you've You've been

so generous with your time. I've had so much fun with you. Um, this has been a game. This has been a very untraditional episode of on purpose for many reasons. And and I that has very much been led by you and who you are and how you approach these conversations. And I really value that because I love I love being in a and I wouldn't call this uncomfortable because nothing about the conversation was uncomfortable, But I love being in a in a new, refreshing, like U sparky environment,

and that's kind of how this has felt. So I know you're landing the plane. But I have to add one thing on that topic, which is I'm sure you're like me, which is I prepare so if I am going to interview someone, I know as much as I can know about them. But what I've learned to do in the thing I've come to love is I'll ask them how their drive over here was. That's not on the list. Yeah, and that leads to nine things that I wasn't trying to steer. Yeah, and then I enter

a state of flow. And really I've figured out I'm only in this for the state of flow. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. And that's that is much better explain than what I was trying to say. So we will take your version that that is. That's exactly yeah, you know, I yeah, we always prepare the same thing, but I try to get lost. I like getting lost. I think that's you know, and and getting lost is so fun because that's where, yeah, that's where you find

stuff that you never imagined. So I love that. I thank you. I uh. We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. So these questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum um and so Dak Shepherd, these are your final five. Are you ready? This is a This is a tight box for me to be. This is a tight box. Okay, as you just learned question question number one, what is

the best advice you've ever received or heard? I thought someone had stolen an idea of mine, one of the sketches I had at this theater, and I thought it ended up bun Sarian live. And that may or may not be true. But someone pulled me aside and said, if if you think that's the only great idea you're ever going to have, you should fight to the end. But if you think you have unlimited great ideas, keep

it moving. Oh that is so thank you. Thank you for taking the time to think about that, because that is refreshing and beautiful. We've not had that before. I love that. Second question, what is the worst advice you've ever received or heard? This is a hard one because I don't take advice. I guess, I guess, and it may not have been said to you. It may have, it may it may be something you heard someone tell you.

It may And the reason why I like this is I really want a list of pieces of advice that, yeah, that that people can really clearly go, oh gosh, we hear this more often than we think, and so yeah, yeah, I guess I'm just gonna give my own what I said to myself at one point, which is sure, cocaine's addictive, but you're smarter than that. That's probably the advice I gave myself that to proved to be inaccurate, that's brilliant. I love that, all right. Question number three, how would

you define your current purpose? My primary purpose is helping people who are dying of alcoholism find sobriety. That's amazing. I don't do good on my wife's great at trying to tackle enormous things. I feel very overwhelmed by them. An individual who calls I kind of know how to do that? Well, that that will save that for part two because I like that, we'll say that for another tim that that would be a whole beautiful conversation and of itself. Question number four, what is something you used

to value but no longer have value for status? Amazing? And fifth and final question, I think you'll like this because it sits in with a lot of what we've discussed. But if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, or one habit that's gonna have to practice every day, what would it be taking responsibility and apologizing when wrong? Beautiful? Thanks Shepherd, Dax, Thank you so much, my pleasure. This is a boy app

Oh no, this is so much fun. Honestly, I had a great time, and knowing you had a great time makes me feel good too, because I've been looking forward to this one and like I said, huge fan of the podcast. I recommend everyone who's listening or watching to

go or listening only sorry, listening everyone who's listening. To make sure you go and subscribe to arm Chair Expert if you don't already listen, and of course check out Dax on Instagram and tag us both on Twitter and Instagram on every platform where you're listening with what resonated with you, what connected with you. I love knowing what

stayed with you. I think I find it fascinating to see what items you're going to apply, what you're questioning, what you're reflecting on, and I'm sure Dax would love to see as well. Dax, thank you for your time, your energy, your patients, the stillness you had answering those last five questions. I love how you were not pushed by the pressure. I really appreciate that. And again, I really hope we get together soon. Me too,