Stress is the difference between the things on your to do list and your capacity to handle that to do list. Anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are going to happen. Both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records.
I'm our ABC News anchor, author of ten Percent Happier.
Mister Dan Harris.
People who live the longest, have strong relationships. Dose yourself with some discomfort, go to that party. Accept the invitation.
The Number one Health and Well Inness Podcast.
Jay Shetty, Jay Sheddy See One Only Ja Shetty, Dan Harris, Welcome to On Purpose. It's so great to finally have you here. I feel like this has been years in the making. I know my audience has wanted to hear from you, my community has asked for us to get together. I've seen so many comments tagging you saying you have to have done on the show, and so this is really exciting for me and I want to thank you for taking out the time and and being here with us.
Thanks for having me.
It's a little embarrassing because they might have tagged me in the comments, but I wouldn't have seen it because I wasn't on social media until a few months ago, and well I had an Instagram, but I didn't really post to it much. And so about six months ago I started putting some videos up and I was looking at it one day and I saw that I had a message from you, but it was from twenty twenty. Yeah, so I answered it, And that's why we're.
Here, absolutely, and I love it. Yeah, I reached out. Yeah, I'm glad, glad you're Yeah, I reached out twenty twenty and who's probably aware of your work even before that. And I feel like there's so many similarities and differences that we can explore today in our personal journeys. But let's dive straight in. I think I'm at this point in time. It feels like we've talked about this topic for a long time, but it still feels like we have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a
subconscious relationship with it. And I'm talking about stress, and it seems that YEurope on your people's stress increases, people's variety of causes of stress increase. Even after the pandemic, we saw a different type of stress that we experienced. I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel about the state of stress at the moment.
It's not good. I recently learned this is embarrassing that I recently learned this. The difference, the specific difference between stress and anxiety. Hopefully I don't mangle this, but it's something like stress is the difference between the things on your to do list and your capacity to handle that to do list, the difference between the demands on you and your ability to meet those demands. And anxiety is a little bit more fretfully projecting forward into the future
and fearing that bad things are going to happen. And so I think actually both things are probably at the worst point they've ever been since we started keeping those records. So from what I can take, anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction, and loneliness are, according to the numbers I've seen, at unprecedented levels. Now, we haven't been keeping these statistics for that long, so I suspect when we were on the
edge of World War two, things were worse. But in the modern era, things have not been worse from what we can tell, and I think a huge contributor to that is the pandemic that we just lived through I sometimes describe it as a global, unregulated experiment into what would happen when you deny people social connection and put people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future.
And add into that political polarization the noxious impacts of social media, which we were just talking about, war, climate change, and you have a very tough situation for individual minds.
Which one's been the one that you feel you've heard about the most from the people that follow your podcasts, that have read your books, Like, what's the stress that you think is weighing them down the most.
I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing, but I sometimes think there's a difference between what people perceive to be the source of their stress or anxiety and what actually is driving it. So we might fasten on to things that are real for sure. I mean like work stress economics, So there can be stress about the state of your job, and then economic stress about the larger state of the economy. There's increasing stress around inequality and bigotry,
increasing awareness of it. So the question is are those the approximate causes for your stress or could there be subterranean contributors that you might not be aware of? So I think today's media environment, particularly social media, and I'm not anti social media.
We just talked about the fact that I recently went.
On it, but I think there are aspects of social media we need to be aware of, and too much comparing yourself to other people is as you've talked about, the source, it's a really good source of unhappiness and stress. I think also, if you're spending too much time staring at a screen, two things going to happen. One, you can get a distorted view of the state of the world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger
and outrage. They feed our anxiety. And then the other thing is the more you're staring at the screen, the less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings. So I think this is the deepest contributor we are, and this is to state the obvious social animals. You hear this in every Ted talk. I think I said it in my own Ted talk. So I'm like, deeply unoriginal here.
We are social animals. We're designed to interact with other human beings, and yet everything about modern life militates against this basic obvious fact. Everything drives us into our own information silos, into curating our own resumes and working on our own little homes and all that can be beautiful, but when you overlook what we need, that is going
to create stress and anxiety. And you might think it is observable things out in the world, and it probably is those things too, But I just wonder from many people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at.
Yeah, I'm so glad you've just made some two really good distinctions there. I love the way you are sharing the research around the difference between anxiety and stress, and going back to that for a second, that example you gave of having your to do list and feeling like you don't have the capacity, It sounds like what you're sharing is that there's a capacity challenge and then also a control challenge, and when you're naming all those things external to us, there's a feeling of I can't control
any of those things. All of those things are uncertain, and thereforem dealing with constant states of change, and that in effect creates a sense of stress and to some degree,
if I'm forward projecting, then anxiety as well. When I think about that, and I love what you just said about actually getting to the root of it, because I think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom, and there will always be a new thing we'll discover every day that causes or triggers stress, because there'll be a new change, a new uncertainty, and a new thing
we can't control. But at the core of it, you've highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging, and this need for human touch, both physical and mental and emotional, that we seem to be feeling further and further away from. I was talking about this with my best friend today, who I speak to probably like three or four times a week, and it's the person I probably speak to the most in the entire world. And
he was my best man at my wedding. He introduced me to spirituality, so we have a long history of eighteen years of a friendship. So he knows me very well and we still talk three or four times a week. He lives in London, I live in la and we still find the time to connect, and that's mainly because
he always makes time and he's very kind. And I often think about it in that I don't know how I would navigate life without that friendship because of having someone who understands me deeply, someone who allows me to be seen, someone who allows me to be flawed and imperfect yet allows me to process. All of that is so profoundly needed, but it required certain deposits that had to happen eighteen years ago in order to get there.
Do you find human connection is easier with people you've known for a long time, or have you found it to be building new relationships and new friendships? What have been the pros and cons of the ways you've navigated both of those.
One of the things that I really try to do in my work is move away from abstractions or cliches or big ideas and get really practical about how you can actually act on these things. Because it's easy to scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a Ted talk and you hear the these inspirational notions like we're built for connection and we need belonging and you need to invest in relationships, and then what do you do about it? And so I think about that a lot,
and I think you just gave us an example. You made a deep friendship eighteen years ago. But it's not enough to just have a connection with somebody, you need to invest in it over and over and over again. That's true for any level of deep relationship. It's true, I would imagine with your wife. It's I mean, you've written a whole book about this, So I'm not talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about.
But I just think you're giving a great, concrete example of one little thing you can do, which is figure out who you like and then make an investment in that person and hopefully a few other people consistently over time, because the rewards are huge and this isn't just like a nice to have. I know you're familiar with this research, but the study that comes up for me all the time is this study that was done that's still ongoing
at Harvard University. It's overseen now by Robert Waldinger, and the idea is that they've been following several generations of people who live in the Boston area to see what contributes to a long life, a longevity, health, happiness. And what comes screaming out of eighty ninety years of data is that the people who live the longest have strong relationships, and what's the mechanism for that stress is what kills us. You started this whole conversation with the idea of stress.
Stress is what kills us most of the time, and the best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships. Waldinger has this great expression, never worry alone. And that's what you were doing three times a week with your buddy. And there are obviously things you can talk to your wife about, of course, but the whole and again, again, you know all of this, but can't You can't your wife can't be the alpha and Omega, your wife can't
be everything to you. And again there's data to support this contention too that the strongest marriages or romantic relationships, in those relationships, the participants have other relationships that support it. You know that you're getting certain needs filled through your best friend. And yeah, so I just go back to what you said that that seems to be a direction that people can move in when they're trying to think about how to operationalize this stuff in their own life.
Yeah no, and I'm glad that you brought it to this And I genuinely couldn't agree with you more. And that's why I've always wanted to talk to you. Is this idea of well, how do we actually do that? Because these big ideas and big concepts often, as you said, I give you that short term inspiration, but then it doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of a routine or rhythm that allows us to repeat it
and make it real. And so let's kind of sewn in on that for some of the points you made. One of the things you talked about, of course, is social media, and the truth is that all of us are, in some way, shape or form addicted to this. It's designed to make us addicted. It's not that we're addicted because we have some flaw or some weakness, or because we're not, you know, because we're alone. I think a lot of us share this. I've found myself doomed scrolling.
I've found myself wasting hours and hours on social media, feeling like I didn't achieve anything or gain anything from it. So no one's immune to this. I don't think there's a select few people who've beaten it. I think it's
it's consumed all of us. What have been the practical steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself, people that you known in your life that you think have actually helped people develop a healthy relationship, because I think it's also not just like saying, well, just don't be on your phone, which is often again one of these big ideas that's portrayed, which is like, well just turn it off or you know, don't be on it, and we know that that's not sustainable either, like we're
both carrying our phones to this.
Yes, first of all, you said this thing about how you have struggled with social media. I just want to add that I have too. I mean I just started, as we've discussed, and I can't tell you many times I've gotten sucked into either scrolling and looking at things that I mean, you know, I could be like talking to my child during that time, or and this is even more embarrassing, you know, compulsively checking back to see how a specific video is performing. And and so yeah,
I don't come to this conversation with any superiority. I also think and I will get to some things that have been useful for me. But I also want to say that I'm not against social media. I think there are beautiful aspects to it. I think they are also very difficult aspects, and we can talk about that if you want, but it is popular not only for the negative aspects for it, and I think it's you know, you can get some degree of pleasure through social media,
for sure. I think it's true just for any dopamine hit in our life. You can get addicted to anything that is the source of fleeting pleasure, from food to cocaine, to alcohol, to gambling to shopping. And there's healthy use, healthy involvement in all of these activities, and then unhealthy And it really just depends on the circumstances of your own brain, your own life, and it's a thing everybody has to work on for themselves. As it pertains to
practical things that work for me with technology addiction. One is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away at a Usually at the end of the day, I try to put it away and have a proper evening with my family. Don't always succeed at that, but I notice
when I do it, I feel better. And that leads to the second piece of advice, which is, as you know, I'm a big advocate of meditation, as are you, and I think the self awareness that can be generated through contemplative exercises like meditation can help wake you up to the fact that you will feel better if you don't get sucked into your phone for you know, prolonged periods of time, and that can the brain is always looking for pleasure, and if you can show the brain that
there's what my friend Jeded Brewer calls a bigger, better offer, which is that it will feel better to connect to your family most of the time, because sometimes our families are annoying, But it will feel better to connect to other people, to read a book, to take a walk in nature. Then it will to you know, attach your arm to the iv drip of fomo that that social media can be. And so I think meditation is a great way to do that. The final thing is see
if you can ask yourself this question. And I get this from a woman named Catherine Price, who wrote a book that I recommend called How to Break Up with Your Phone. She encourages people to ask themselves to try to get in the habit of asking themselves a very simple question when they're when they find their zombie arm reaching for the phone.
What do you need right now?
Like?
What need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone?
For me, it's often because I'm bored, or I'm in an uncomfortable situation, or I'm tired and I don't have the wherewithal to do something, or I'm lonely, or I'm hungry. And actually, if you run that program, you run that algorithm internally for yourself. You know you're only going to remember this ten percent of the time. But if you can remember to do it some percentage of the time and ask yourself, what is it that I'm actually going for here, you might realize, actually the phone is not
what I need right now. And for me, I found that really helpful. It doesn't work all the time, but it helps.
Yeah. Absolutely, I like that idea of how we're almost having to sell to our brain, Like the idea of selling this you call it the great What was it? The great?
It's not my phrase, but it's from this guy, doctor Jed Brewer, and he's written some books about anxiety, and it's called the bigger, better offer.
The bigger better office. Sorry, yes, the bigger better offer. Like, I love that idea of having to sell that idea, pledge that idea, propose that idea to the brain. And I definitely see that as valuable. And I've found that with the way that that worked for me was having to remind myself after I made the right decision. So what I mean by that is, if I'm going to reach for my phone right now, and I have the courage enough to not reach for it, but I end
up spending time with my family as the bigger better offer. Now, after I've spent time with my family and I've enjoyed it this time, they're not annoying, Then after I do that, I need to deeply code that into my memory, like I need to make a feel out of it, like I need to tell my friend about it. I need to journal about it. I need to record it, I
need to take a picture of whatever it is. Because what I found is that the mind needs to be reminded again when I reach for the phone that the bigger, better offer will win, but that memory he doesn't get stored deep enough for us to be able to rediscover it when we most need it. Yes, and so that's definitely helped. And I loved what you said a couple of seconds ago about being able to switch it off.
I I fail at this all the time, but I've at least set the rules, and I think that's what we have to do with this, because it's it is hard. But a few years ago I set no technology times and no technology zones in my home. So I almost envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at the dining table. And at one point I used to envision like lasers around the room. And second, if I walked past him with my phone, then you know whatever the floor is laughter, Yeah, like mission impossible. I just
to give that feeling. And yes, of course, have I walked through a laser with my phone. Of course I have. But I like the idea of knowing that. Look, there are certain rooms in my home where technology is not the space. So actually, if I want to use my phone, I have to leave that room to use it. And like you're saying about leaving your phone in another room or whatever it may be, I think is really powerful.
One thing you brought up, which I actually think is that the crux of so much of this, And you mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social media usage, and I find that to actually be one of the deepest routes of the challenges we have with
change and habit or even with meditation. Like I think as you know you've been teaching meditation for years, as if I and when I first started meditating, and even now when my attention is not as present as it can be, or I'm not as focused or I'm distracted, which still happens today after all these years of meditating, it's so easy to feel embarrassed or ashamed or guilty, and we can often start to develop it in a critic that can say some of the most hurtful things,
like I'll often say to myself like, come on, man, you've been meditating for eighteen years, now, how are you distracted? Or you know you've been you know by now you should have been an expert because you're surrounded by so many experts, or what's wrong with you? Like, oh, how can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply like you know, whatever it may be. And it's so easy
to get into that space. And one thing that I came across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't hate yourself into change, like you can't guilt yourself into growth. You can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly achieve your goal. There almost needs to be grace there needs to be kindness. There needs to be a safe
space for you to have imperfections. So I wanted to ask you, like, what have you done with that emotion of feeling embarrassed, because I actually think meditation is powerful for helping us overcome embarrassment. But I'd love to approach that with you.
Well, I've had the same thoughts of you know, I don't know if you've experienced this, but you know, once you step out into the world as like something approaching a self help person, as soon as you're an asshole, you tell yourself a story about how like you're a total fraud, like the first day you screw up, you know you you're You're like, all right, well I got to close this whole business.
I can relate to that.
Yeah, I'm sure, I mean I I and I think it goes to something really important, which is personal growth, spiritual development, whatever you want to call it.
Is hard and messy and perfection is not on offer.
And I think just knowing that and even hearing Jay Shetty talk about making mistakes and getting his shins cut off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom with his phone is useful because people need to know. It's not a straight, unbroken upward trajectory. That's that's not what this is. That's not what this is about. There's a great tweet or I guess we call him X's now or whatever whatever. There was a great X the
other day from a zen rochie Roachie Joan Halifax. She's this incredible human being, and she posted a picture that was basically a bunch of squiggly lines just going nowhere, and then she the caption was the path. That's the thing we are. This is messy. We are messy animals and that's okay. And what I think is important to know is that growth is possible, but it is impossible without making a bunch of mistakes. And if you can get that into your head, you're better off. So how
do you get that into your head? There's a bunch of research that I've become increasingly interested in about the possibility of reprogramming your inner dialogue. We most of us have really nasty inner weather.
You know.
I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the types of shit that I say to myself, I would be punching that person in the face. And yet I talk to myself in a quite a scathing, venomous way. I know this is not unusual, so what can we do about it? Well, you can get into the habit you can develop. And again this is a an evidence backed assertion. I'm not making just making this up, nor is it an original observation. But what I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to
yourself the way you would talk to a friend. And there are some little hacks that make this easier. One of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name. So, Jay, I know you just got distracted in meditation, but dude, as you know, getting distracted is a part of meditation.
If it was possible to.
Clear your mind, then we'd have lots of people walking around with no thoughts.
But that isn't possible.
What is possible is to focus your mind for a few nine a seconds out of time and then start again and again and again. And we are very good at taking advice, at giving advice to other people, but not taking our own advice. And so this technique, which is called distance self talk, where you use your own name to create some distance, can allow you Jay or me Dan to give our tells the advice that we're so willing to give other people and then actually to hear it, And does that make sense?
Truly? Absolutely no resates. That resonates so deeply, and I actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative of that is true. And so I was reading just a couple of weeks ago, maybe around how the two ways we talk to ourselves negatively are either I am so we say things like I am lazy, or I'm so I'm not good enough for I'm the worst, or you know, I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends,
or whatever is right, I am statements. And the other one they were saying, which was even worse, was we have a voice in our head that sounds like an authority figure that says you're the worst or and you aren't good enough, or you're behind, or whatever it may be. And that almost sounds like there's an external authority, whether it could have been a teacher or a parent, a family member who may have said that to us, and now it's internalized as a negative authority in our minds.
And so what you're actually saying is the positive authority also works that if someone says your name Jay or Dan, and then coaches you and guides you through that. Would you say that that's a skill that you have harnessed and nourished through meditation or do you see that as separate to meditation.
I think it's absolutely complementary. You know, as you know in meditation you are. One of the benefits is that you're more self aware. You're more aware of all of these wild thoughts careening through your head, and so it's easier to wake up now. I mean, I get lost in you know, homicidal fantasies and you know, on speakable fantasy, other kinds of fantasies. That's just the mind. But I'm
more likely now to have some self awareness. I mean another word for that is mindfulness, to be able to see what's happening between my ears, behind my eyes without necessarily being caught.
Up in it.
And so the sooner I can wake up to the fact that I'm in the middle of a jag of self judgment, then I can bring in these tools. Oh yeah, you know what I need to do right now is have a talk between the sane part of myself and the insane part of myself. And as you said before, the the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading is wisdom, but it's not wisdom. It's it's it is your ancient fears, and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture. So
you might be telling yourself you need to look better. Well, that's not your voice. That is as to invoke another amazing person, Sonya Renee or one of my Sonya Renee Taylor, I believe is her name. I'm embarrassing, I'm forgetting her last name, but she's a great writer. And she said something to the effect of, when I see self criticism, I realize it's not my voice. It's the voice of the system. And so you're telling yourself you don't look good. Well,
who's by whose standards? It's the culture standards. And I have two modes that I'm least proud of. One is greedy and the other is angry. Angry, And as over time, I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes because it's just the organism trying to protect itself. It's just my ancient fear based patterns doing their best. Usually, you know, like it's a five year old's version of
doing their best to protect this body. But I don't need to listen to them, and in fact, the radical disarmament is to actually make friends with them, to kind of high five those demons instead of trying to slay them. And for me, that's been really useful. And just to get it back to your question, combining these, I would say modern psychological tools with ancient contemplative tools has really been helpful.
Absolutely. Yeah, I love you just reminded me of making that point about the system that you quoted there reminds me of years yes, and years and years ago. I was when I was a student in London and I remember walking through, you know, like a department store and there was a big advert that said get the natural look, and then it was like all these things that products that can help you get the natural look. And just that idea of purchasing a natural look is fascinating because.
As if you weren't born with them.
Yeah, exactly, but it is that voice right saying okay, well, even to get a natural look. And again, you know, I think there are pros and consom in you. I'm a big fan of so many products, so many services, so many things, and so it's not to say it's all bad, but there is a need in mindfulness to I think what you're saying is to differentiate and have the ability of discernment between is this voice me or is this something outside of me, whether it's a system
or a person or whatever it may be. And I think that's the quality that we need, because it isn't necessarily saying I'm just going to shut everything off and nothing matters. It's this idea of can I tell? Can I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in my head as to whether it's truly mine or whether it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external force.
Another fascinating question is what is me? Close your eyes and look inside. Can you find some core nuggative j and spend some time with that question that'll pop you out of ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things.
Where is that question taken you?
I think you think.
I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition, and I come a little bit more out of the Buddhist tradition, even though I don't look like it. But you know, that's That's where I've spent the last fifteen years of my life really doing a lot of study. And one of the things I say in Tibetan Buddhism is that the not finding is the finding because there's
nothing to find there. I yes, I mean on the convention, on the level of consensual, conventional reality, I'm Dan and that camera's taking a picture of me, And yes, that is true. But on the deepest possible level, if I look for some core nugget of Dan, there's nothing to find, and that not finding is the answer. And if can you stay with that ambiguity, there is something healing about that. So how how do you take that out of the esoteric clouds into your actual life? One little linguistic trick.
You kind of teed me up for this before, because you use the phrase I am like, I am so, and so what if you just and this is I want to give credit to the person who came up with this. It's Joseph Goldstein is a great meditation teacher, but he often advises his students to say, instead of I am fill in the blank, there is fill in the blank. There is hunger right now, there is anger in my mind right now, there is sadness in my mind right.
Now, there's no you to find.
The adding of the you on top of it is just adding insult to injury, right, you don't that's extra, but that it's true that hunger and sadness can be here right now. But if you can take the I am out of it and to that there is, well that it's workable. Right, you can do something with it. You can let it pass, you can observe it, you can try to work with it. But if you add in a whole story about how ij or I dan I mean curably fill in the blank, well that's much.
That's a much bigger problem.
Yeah, I love that. I mean I've never heard that there is. That's beautiful, that's that's really I can totally see how that is such a beautiful tool and an insight for people to use as language. Because it's interesting, though, isn't it? Because it feels like we're all so obsessed with identity in our stories and almost what you're proposing is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a
distance between us and our identity and story. Yet everything we've been discussing today, whether it's social media, whether it's the system, whether it's the story your parents laid out for you, all of that, there's stories to be lived, crafted, told and almost we're all living on our own stories in our own mind. And so yeah, how are you able to operate as Dan Harris, the teacher, the guide,
the you know podcast, et cetera. And then also have the the balance of this recognition that actually there is and there's no I am.
Well, can I turn it around?
Of course?
Like my last retreat was six to nine months ago, I've got one coming up. So I'm like further and further away from sanity, but you are much fresher, like you've just come out of a retreat.
How do you balance that?
There's an understanding of the needs and interests of the different vehicles in which I live. So the body being one vehicle, the body has certain needs in order to operate and in order to function, and then the mind has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be a support or as the getas as the best friend of the worst enemy. So recognizing again as you said earlier, the befriending of the mind requires an awareness and then at a deeper level, looking at our emotions, looking at
our spiritual or consciousness connection. And so to me, it's the outlining and awareness of the needs for that specific vehicle, but not falling into the trap of believing the vehicle is me. And the balance comes from recognizing using there is is beautiful actually, but recognizing that there are needs for each aspect that need to be taken care of, but that one should not accept each of them to
be oneself. And I think for me that comes in the form of having to remind myself of that which is beyond the physical self, because it's easier to get connected and identify with the farhysical self than it is with the non physical self. Because the non physical self is intangible, it's unseen when unaware of it, we don't live in a society that reminds us of it. I was thinking about this while I was actually at the monastery.
So the monastery doesn't have mirrors, and that was something I've talked about before, where you lose your sense of your physical self. Like while I lived there, I didn't really I forgot deeply what I look like, and so if I was out on the streets when I was traveling, I would always try and look at my reflection in a you know, in a shop window, whatever it may be.
And when I was back this time as well, I was having that realization that the number one thing I do in the morning when I wake up back at my home is I look in the mirror. And so I'm already from the moment I wake up living in my physical self. I'm now living believing that I am this body and this is all there is. And so that automatically sets me up on the opposite end of
what I'm trying to practice spiritually. And so I found that the balance is kept by making that reminder, that first thought of the day of recognizing, whether it's in your language, you know that which is not or that which is unseen. And in the Hindu tradition, the accepting of us being pure, eternal, full of knowledge, and full of bliss is consciousness identifying with that before I identify with anything else, and that, to me is what helps
the balance, is not falling into the easy identification. I don't know if any of that made any sense.
But well I does.
I think, Well, you're aware through your own practice that there's more than just the jay you see in the mirror, and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually, like me, you're kind of building a business around the small version of yourself, like the physical, corporeal version of yourself that presents here and now, smaller than the sort of vast, infinite, mysterious we don't know what that is
somehow lives in your mind. And the way that you balance it, I heard, is just engaging the messy business of trying to remember to the best of your ability.
Yeah, I can't, I can't. I don't need to remind myself that I'm jay this physical version, because I'm reminded of that every day. But I have to remind myself of that which is beyond this, because otherwise it's so easy to lose touch with it. Because we are living with the bodily needs is the prime focus. And I think that's why retreats and experiences are so supportive, where the bodily needs somewhat become a background priority and the needs of the deeper self rise and the connection with
that self is more prominent. And I find that starting my year of that way helps. I was actually just I was talking to someone who was mentioning they came to one of your retreats at Omega, and they were saying, what a beautiful experience that was there, said it was the only retreat they've ever been on, but they plan on coming on more. And it was for that same reason to be reminded. And I think that's why we
do anything right. I think we most of what we do is to remind ourselves of something that we care about and something that's meaningful to us, whether it's spending time with our family or why we celebrate the holidays, like so much of I think the most beautiful things in our world are reminding us of what truly matters. And I think spiritual and meditation. To me, meditation is my daily practice overmind myself of what truly matters exactly.
I mean, I think the biggest problem in my experience, the biggest problem in whatever again, like I don't know what to call this, personal growth, spiritual development, whatever it is. The biggest challenge is forgetting. Because you hear a great podcast, you see a great Instagram post, you read a great book, you go to a great retreat, but then everything about modern life pulls you back into the I'm going to get satisfaction from the next thing. Oh no, no, the
next thing. I'm going to keep scrolling. I'm gonna get that next sip of a latte, I'm going to get the next promotion. And again I'm not saying these are bad things, but they won't do it for you. Right, There's a reason why you keep wanting more because the way the human animals designed is natural selection. Didn't want us to be satisfied becase then we stop, you know, having babies, and that wouldn't be good for the species. So you need to wake you need this is a
urgent mission. You need to find as many ways as possible to wake back up. And you just describe, you know, meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff into your neurons. It's probably too aggressive of an analogy, but it gets it into your molecules in a way. And another thing you also described earlier is having good friends. You know, if you can surround yourself with people who are also taking this thing seriously, that is a great way to wake yourself back up.
And it also, by the way, is a.
Great way to get you out of your attachment to this sort of I don't know if this is the appropriate term to use, but the sort of smallest, most superficial version of yourself, the brand of Dan, the brand of Jay. Well, if you're talking to your best friend and he's got a problem and you're helping him with it. Another word for that would be generosity. Right, if you're being generous in some way that's going to get you out of your head, that is a form of letting go.
Mm hmmm, I like that. Yeah, that really that struck a corde of like how again, going back to that being when when we're being a I guess in that case you said generous. There's an element of us not living in the system, is what you say? That feels right? Why? Why is that? Why? Why do you think that breaks the system?
It's a little line that I have which is impolite, but the view is so much better when you pull your head out of your ass, and you know, if you're being generous, your.
Head's out of your ass.
Even if you have ulterior motives, which I think we unfairly demonize, like it's okay to give because you know you have some there's something in it for you. By the way, there is something in it for you. The brain is wired to experience intense reward in the act of generosity. That's cool, but you're still more of your bandwidth focused on the benefit to somebody else. Than there would be if you were like mindlessly scrolling or binging
or eating or whatever it is. And it is just fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever form you choose. And it doesn't have to be giving money. It can be holding the door open for somebody. I sometimes ask people to do this little mental, very easy mental game of like, pay attention. The next time you hold the door open for somebody, what does that feel like? It feels good if you're paying attention. That feeling is infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram
or ice cream is not. And I just you can ride that insight. Not that I do it perfectly, if at all, but you can, if you're so inclined, ride that insight all the way to significantly greater levels of happiness.
Yeah. Wow, I love that. I love that. That's so interesting that after all these years, you can still open the door for someone and it still feels great and you know whether whether the other person responds or not. But the endless scrolling on social media is kind of yeah, loses its taste very very quickly.
Yeah, it doesn't mean you should ever do it. It's just the endless part that you should lose.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean, I guess that's one of the things I loved about in this book when I first came across it. Your book Ten Percent Happier, which is, you know, a huge best seller, huge success led to the podcast. Also, one of the things I loved was this whole idea about without losing your edge. And I really appreciated that because I think it's what we've both been talking about here. Like I enjoy operating and building
and creating like I do, and I've always been. I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I've given myself permission to be all aspects of myself. And up until this stage in my life, I was just collecting different parts of myself, and so I felt like I collected to I mean, zero to ten probably didn't do anything, but ten to twenty collected things. Twenty to thirty I collected things. And now I'm in my thirties,
I feel like I'm connecting things. And that collection to connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process of accepting and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things that live in within me. So as much as I love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself, I also really enjoy building and creating and learning and being curious and outward. And those two things coexist, and
I actually find that one feeds the other. So I find that the further I go outwards, the more I want to go inwards, and the more I go inwards, the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense, And that cycle continues, and it's a cycle, it's not a and I think both of us, having studied Eastern traditions, the East is fully cyclical and not linear in all
of its practices. So the growth journey looks like this, and the Western growth journey generally is portrayed as that, though even though it may not.
Be, there's a way in which you can assume that sitting and meditating or even going to a can you believe this dude went to a monastery for ten days a couple of days ago, Like, that's not going to help him with his edge, But actually it does help you.
It does help you.
Do you want to be less emotionally reactive? Do you want to be more focused? Do you want to have better relationships with your collaborators. Okay, do you think going to a monastery is going to help or hurt with those things? It's going to help with all of those things, and those are the things we need to be successful. We've been sold through hustle culture this idea that you know, thank God it's Monday, I've got to rise and grind
and all of that stuff. But that that is, in my experience, a great way to burn out, when in fact, that the cycle that you just talked about of retreat to advance kind of you know, you take some you don't have to do it. It doesn't even have to be a retreat. It can be just five minutes of meditation every day. That that is filling your tank in a way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively. And so these two things are not in opposition in
my experience. And you're a walking example of that, Like you spent time being a monk, and that has helped you build a business that helps other people, that helps you do more inner work.
Boom.
Yeah, no, And of course, and I love what you said there, because yeah, we've talked a bit about retreats, and I don't want everyone to think they need to disappear for a week or a year or whatever it may be. All of this can be done in the microcosm of five minutes. I want to don walk us
through your daily meditation practice. And I'm sure you've done this a million times, but I'd love for people to hear it, because I'd love for people to hear how accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis that we're talking about, and of course in a way that they can start practicing as well. So what is your data practice.
I'm actually I'm excited where you're interviewing me right now. But then in like two minutes we're going to turn this around and I'm gonna interview you and I because we come from different traditions, so I actually come into my discussion with you with a lot of curiosity about what your meditation is like. So from a Buddhist standpoint, it's for beginners really not complex, and a lot of people worry that it's going to be you know, esoteric
or impossible, but it really isn't. There's really three steps for beginning mindfulness meditation. And by the way, I did use I keep talking about Buddhism, but this meditation that I'm talking about now is secular. There's no religious lingo or metaphysical claims. It's just a it's a very simple, secular kind of exercise for the brain. And the first step is just to sit or lie down comfortably, close
your eyes. And the second step is to bring your full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out. For some people, the breath is can make you a little anxious if you're focusing on that, and if that's you, then you just pick something else, like the feeling of your body sitting or lying down. So that's step number two. First, get into a comfortable position, sitting or lying down. Second, pick something to focus on,
like your breath or the feeling of your body. And then the step is the most important because as soon as you try to do this, your mind is likely to go into mutiny mode. You're having in all these random thoughts and urges and emotions, and at this moment, the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells them and this whole story about how they're failed meditators. I mean, you were talking about this earlier, but that
voice is wrong. The whole goal in meditation is just to notice that you've become distracted and to start again and again and again. And the waking up from distraction is not proof of failure. It's actually a proof of success because the whole goal here is to get more familiar with this inner conversation that we're all having, this inner narrator that is chasing us out of bed in the morning and is yammering at us all day long. You just want to get more familiar with this cacophony
so that it doesn't own you as much. So it's really that simple. Pick one thing to focus on, usually the breath. Then in a few seconds in you'll start having random thoughts about like what kind of bird was big bird? Or you know where do gerbils run wild? Whatever, as random thoughts. As soon as you wake up from those thoughts, blow them a kiss and go back to the breath. Back to the breath, over and over and over again. And that's like a bicep curl for your brain.
And that's what we see on the brain scans of people who meditate, that the area of the brain associated with attention or focus changes in a positive way. Meanwhile, the area of the brain associated with stress shrinks. And this is an exercise that anybody can do. I will say small asterisk. If you have significant mental health challenges or trauma, it might be good to do it under the supervision of a mental health professional, but other than that,
it really is universally accessible. It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are, or if, like me, you're an agnostic. This is simple secular exercise for your brain.
Yeah, and I love what you said is that we're really just trying to get attuned to that in a voice that is basically telling us what to do all day and pushing around in every direction. I find that that voice has often led us to achieve incredible things. That voice often leads us to achieve things and still feel unfulfilled. That voice has almost becomes such a friend
in so many ways, and sometimes a toxic friend. It's almost a toxic relationship we have with the voice inside of our head where we listen to it, but we don't always like it. But sometimes it helps us win, and sometimes it you know, sometimes it helps us get one up on someone and then other times it lets us down. And it's doing all of this. It's almost like, I think, like a toxic relationship. We're scared of letting go of that voice because it's almost like, what do
I replace it with? Yes, I'm just going to be alone.
Well, a couple things to say about that. One is there are many voices. I mean, one of the theories of modern psychological theories is called the modular model of mind.
That we have these modes.
I kind of think about it like you remember magic eight balls. I still love that, And the tiles compete for the top space that you that and then we'll send you a message or whatever.
So we have a bunch of tiles in our head and they're all.
Competing for that little for the steering wheel, right, And so I've got a jealous mode, an angry mode, a fearful mode, a self critical mode, and I think often the self critical mode is the one with a steering wheel. But you have a wise mode, a generous mode, a compassionate mode, and they're often just not getting that much airtime. And there are ways through meditation, through therapy, being in nature, exercise that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface.
And so that's just one thing to say. And then the other thing to say is that, yeah, it's true that this self criticism. We're scared that if we let it go, that will be on the couch eating ice cream until the end of time. And that's just not what's going to happen. Back to Tibetan Buddhism, and I'm not an expert in it, but they have this expression that I have a couple of colleagues wh are sitting on a couch over here who have heard me say this a million times, but I really love this. This
there's the Tibetan word for enlightenment. As far as I understand it roughly translates into a clearing away and a bringing forth. You clear away the noise of our All of our demons are unhelpful demons. What can come out is what is already there in all of us, which is the good stuff.
You know.
You might use the word the loaded word love, and I think of love as like sort of an overarching term that encompasses things like generosity, compassion, kindness, patience, ethics, and that is in us. Of course, it's in us because back to evolution as a social species, we needed all that stuff in order to cooperate and collaborate and become the apex predator on the planet. And when you turn the volume down on the shittier aspects of our nature, the good stuff will come out. And it's it's it
has an edge. It has the edge that you want. It does want to create beautiful and important things in the world. It does want to take care of you too, as well as it wants to take care of everybody it it does. It does want to stand up to injustice. It does want to be tough, but not motivated by hatred instead by the good stuff, which is like giving a shit caring anyway. That's that's all my experience about this. Absolutely, and you're not. I'm not perfect at it by any stretch.
I mean I've been. I made a reference to the Liz a TONI were sitting in the room with us, like give them the mic. They'll tell you, you know ninety still a moron.
Absolutely, no, no, no, But but I love the idea of how we're simply reconnecting with and reawakening something we've forgotten. So it's almost like we're associating with that angry mode, that envy mode, that jealousy mode, that ego mode every day, and so we've started to accept that it's our reality and normality. Whereas you said, we do also have a wise mode. It's just that we haven't experienced it either outside of us or inside of us for so long
that we've forgotten it's there. But it is there, it is accessible, And I think that is not only true based on the wisdom traditions we've studied, but it's also empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having to figure out or develop. It's an ability that almost exists within you already that has just been buried and covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities.
Exactly.
You've been so vulnerable a couple of times to mention this thing inside of you as an anger mode. You were saying earlier you have two modes, and one of them was anger. And I wanted, if it's okay, to kind of hone in on that, because I think that's something we've actually never really discussed on the podcast, in all the guests we've had, and I think it's something that often is something people are scared head of talking about. It's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger
is associated with. And I was wondering how as meditation and mindfulness, what have they shown you or helped you understand about anger? Because I think I think our mind often goes to what I want to stop being angry, rather than I want to understand anger. And I think this is so true for so many things in society. We're like, I wish that would just stop. And it's almost like, well, before it stops, we may need to get to know it a bit better and understand it
and befriend it. Going back to the high five point you made earlier, and so I thought, let's start with anger for that.
Sure.
I mean, there's this great I know you know who he is, but there's this great Vietnamese zen master, tiknat Han, and I love he has this this expression about like holding your anger like a.
Like a baby.
I don't love that because I'm such an anti sentimentalist, and I you know, I find it like sohat annoying. Even though he's completely right. He's a genius, or was a genius he passed recently. There's something to that. First of all, the anger is trying to tell you something. In my case, it's like some infantile usually desire to protect.
Myself and.
Often it's Sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion, so it's an emotion that's covering up for another emotion. And for my case, it's usually fear. So I'm a guy and we don't like to admit fear. And often if I look closely, if I hold the anger like a like a crying child, if I get over myself and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned that we should probably do, I actually see, oh yeah,
I'm scared of something here. And that's really helpful because then I can I can respond wisely to the thing that's making me angry slash scared, rather than reacting blindly. There's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger. Again, this is not my insight. This is the way in psychological circles they talk about it. Healthy anger is that can get you off the couch to do something about a problem, and it's clarifying it.
It can help.
Healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody's full of shit. Although there's a reason why we talk about anger as seeing read because it can also be you know, blind with blind rage. And so that's the destructive anger, which where that's an anger fueled by hatred fueled by bias, bigotry, and it can get us into endless conflict, and that's what you want to avoid. That's what I've failed to avoid for too many times in my own life and
still screw that up, you know, regularly. But it's nothing can happen until you identify the problem. You talked about this earlier, you know, like one of the things that meditation does for you is it helps you be aware of stuff so that you can work with it. And so yeah, this is one of my big things that I have to work with.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. No, I really value that understanding of the difference in the two angers that you just mentioned there. But also yeah, just being able to recognize the fear that sits beneath it. And I can. When I get agitated or irritated, it's always because there's something I'm fearful of, and often it's even the fear
of messing up. You know. It's for me, I'm thinking of when I'm asked a question and I feel like I don't have any enough time to solve it, and then I'm like, oh, just you know whatever, Like that kind of agitation, that irritation comes out, and really it's a fear of I'm like, I wish we had more time, I would be able to solve this, like I don't want to mess up. I don't want to give it and so and it's so interesting that what is actually well intentioned of a desire to want to get things
right turns out to be experienced as that. And like you said, and like you mentioned Tikna Hunt said of being able to hold it as a baby or being able to Yeah, it's almost like it's so interesting though what you said about the not the skepticism that you have, but the you know, you were saying, the overly sentimental
version of holding a baby. And I think often that is the perspective people have of these ideas, right with mindfulness, with meditation, that oh, it's sentimental, it's a bit fluffy, it's a bit woo and we know there's science behind it now and those those days should be gone, but they're not, because there's still a skepticism and cynicism around the idea of like, oh, yeah, my fear is like whatever, there's no fear, right, because that in and of itself
is trying to protect us from or trying to protect us from our fear. And so how have you seen in others and how have you and yourself been able to catch yourself double bluffing yourself or when you're almost you know, you're finding that way around doing the actual work.
One of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback for me is defensiveness or dismissiveness. If I am dismissing something out of hand, it's usually something I should listen to. And if I'm getting defensive, it's because it's something I know I should hear that I'm unwilling to hear at that moment. And I almost never catch I almost never catch it in the moment.
I almost never catch it in the moment.
But it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next day. You know, it's like, it's just I keep coming back to this, you know, I'm so pissed that this person said this thing.
Is like, ah shit, they're probably right.
And so I actually got an email the other day from I won't say her name because she didn't give me permission, but from a great meditation teacher who was talking to me about something, and she I didn't recall
her getting defensive. She recalled herself getting defensive about something that I was pushing her on something, and she wrote me an email the next station is like, I woke up thinking about how I was defensive and that means eitherre's something I really need to listen to there, So I'm going to go in the direction you push me. And that's that's usually how I get past the double bluff.
Yeah. I think for me, it comes out in if I'm judging someone, so fund that if I'm judging someone that there's a sense of truth that that exists within me somewhere, and so I need to explore that that which I'm judging in someone else. And I've been working on that one, and that's the hardest one, and.
It's the most embarrassing too, because it's like you it feels good to point at the other person there's such a schmuck or whatever, but like, of course you're seeing it so clearly, and you hate it so much because it's it's in you.
Yeah, And it's so funny because when you see in them, you're like, how can they not be aware that they're like that? At the same time, you're talking about yourself and you know you've recognized you're not you're not even aware when you're like that. And I think that's where I notice where I'm where it's easy to double bluff myself and I have to be conscious of That goes
along your lines too. It's that you're building a story to support your view without evidence and without research and without looking at all of the facts, and you know you've you've created a story that makes sense to you in order to fulfill your your desire, whatever that may be. And then you're not forced to actually look at yourself.
There's a great expression. If it's hysterical, it's historical. You know, it's like you're getting hysterical about something. There's some it's some deep programming. And yeah, I hate admitting that.
Yeah, I think we're both we're both going back and forth admitting all of our admitting all of our flaws and challenges and issues. But but that's well, meditation does right that this is actually what's transpired without without intention or maybe with intention. But actually this is the benefit of practicing mindfulness of meditation is a really healthy relationship with all of your imperfections.
I mean, you interview all sorts of people, but you interview a lot of like great folks from the meditation world, and so do why and so in my experience, the common denominator among all of the great like spiritual masters, right, if that's a term that you're okay with, the common denominator is they all have a sense of humor. Yes, how can you look at this mind without laughing? After all, the word that my meditation teacher, Joseph Goldstein uses most frequently is ridiculous.
Yes, yes, because we're ridiculous.
You were ridiculous, And it's just it's so healthy to see that and laugh at it.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Teachers would obviously always talk about the monkey mind. Yes, and although that's somewhat of a alien analogy to some degree at least when you've grown up in England or in the US, because you're not seeing monkeys all the time. But when I have gone to certain spiritual sites in India that are, you know, infiltrated with monkeys, it will only make you laugh. Like I've
seen monkeys, you know, rip bags to steal fruit. I've seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back for food. I've seen I've seen monkeys steal credit cards like and and know how to bather for what they want, Like I've seen monkeys put in sunglasses like all you need to do. I mean me and my wife ind A Barley this year and we went to the monkey forest there and the monkeys are just hilarious. And ridiculous
is the word. And it's almost that when you start seeing the habits of the mind as a monkey, it's so easy to laugh at it because you just realize how ridiculous it is, and how how hilarious they are, and how uncontrollable they are, as opposed to looking at it as this thing like almost like a Rubik's cube, which we sometimes see as and you get frustrated trying to figure it out. Espison, when you look at a monkey, you go, well, a monkey's going to be a monkey.
So I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous. I'm not expecting my mind to be this. You know, you're never looking at a monkey expecting it to be sitting there meditag on top of a rock. You're expecting to see a monkey jump from branch to branch and swing and you know, whatever else it may be. And all of a sudden when you can and you have to have had the real experience of that in order to even have that really sit and like if I hadn't seen.
And then a couple of years ago I went to Rwanda and we treked with gorillas, and we saw the little baby gorillas who were just playful and silly, and the sound of their laugh and and just what they were like, and you just start to recognize you need. This is why what you just said earlier, you mentioned it passively, but observing nature is such a beautiful way
of understanding ourselves. And again going back to your earliest point, our disconnection from each other in nature means we're only seeing systems and machines and the way systems and machines work, and now our expectation of our mind to work the
same way. I want to turn my mind off and I want to turn my mind on, because we've seen the system of on and off on a light switch, to a phone, to a tablet for so many years now that we've lost the idea of wait a minute, the sun sets and the sun rises, but it doesn't sun off and sun on, and we've lost that concept of there is no instant on and off, and there is no instant switch there is only nature doing its cycle and its phases and its rituals, almost.
To pick up on the instant part of it, you know. It kind of takes me back to the first question you asked around stress, and we talked about some of the contributors. I think one of the contributors is that we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction.
That we've created a world for young people. And to me, you're a young person, but because I'm in my fifties and you're in your thirties, but I have a nine year old who's a much younger person, and we you know, there's a way that older people can blame younger people for their oh this generation or kids today or whatever. But this is a world we've created for them where there isn't a lot of friction. You can get everything
you want on demand. And as a consequence, people are intolerant of discomfort, and that is creating a lot of anxiety because life is uncomfortable and there are going to be stressful and scary situations and your ability to thrive is going to be directly correlated to your ability to handle this. And if we don't get comfortable with discomfort, we're going to suffer, and.
There are ways to work with this.
One of them is this thing that it's a psychological term opposite action, you know, when you I'll give you an example.
I have intense claustrophobia.
When your colleague Jordan came to pick me up in the lobby of the hotel in which we're doing this interview and take me up the elevator, I said I have to ride alone because I didn't want to have a panic attack in front of her.
But I got on the elevator. I didn't want to.
I thought about walking thirty flights and I've done that before.
Wow. Sorry, I feel terrible now.
I wish I have set up dude.
No, but the lesson here is that I need to get on elevators regularly. That's the way out of this. It's opposite action. I need to do the thing i'm scared of carefully. I don't want to give myself a panic attack. Although there are some people who argue that that is a way through this, but for me, I just kind of gently exposed myself to the stuff I'm afraid of, and so I actually look I relished the opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a subway ride. I just have to do it in the
right circumstances. So I didn't inflict it upon Jordan. I just took a different elevator. And I actually think this is one of the this is one of the ways out, one of the ways out of the epidemic of stress and anxiety that we began this conversation with, which is to whatever way in your own life, to just dose
yourself carefully and gently, with some discomfort. To take the opposite action, do the opposite of what you want to do, which may be to you know, hide from the discomfort, Go to that party, accept the invitation, ask that person out for a cup of coffee, pressed like on that Instagram post. You know, little steps like that will will equip you and arm you to move through a world that is largely out of your control.
Done. Thank you so much. It's been such a joy talking to you today, and I've really, I've really enjoyed how you know, this conversation tended to the benefits of meditation without listing the benefits of meditation, but the u but the acceptance of the benefits being a deeper awareness of who we are. We need to improve and doing that with love, with kindness, with gentleness, as opposed to hate,
pressure and stress that we often place on ourselves. But we end every episode with a final five, and these final five have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum each and so Dan, these are your final five. The first question is what is the best advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or received?
Just start again?
I like that, Yeah, beautiful. What is The second question is what is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation that you've ever heard or received?
Clear your mind.
It's so bad. It's so bad. It's so bad, and it was almost marketed like that for a long time. Yes, for a long long time. Yeah. Question number three, how would you define your current purpose?
Make awesome shit that helps people do their lives better?
I love that? Question Number four a thought that you'd like to repeat more often?
Well, I got a tattoo recently. It's an acronym ftboa B. It's way off brand for me in terms of like, it's cheesier than I like to be, but it stands. It's a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings. And we talked about my anger habit. But one of my other habits that I also mentioned that I don't like is a kind of selfishness or greed, and so I really try to remind myself as much as possible, like, no, I'm answering this in more than a word.
No, it's brilliant, it's great on.
But I try to remind myself, Yeah, this is for the benefit of all beings and the a the all I'm included in that.
So it's not like I can't make a living or whatever.
But having it right here next to my watch, I'm trying to put that thought in my head more frequently.
I love that. That's a beautiful answer. Fifth and final question, which we asked every guest has ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
How long do most people pause? Because I'm thinking.
People take forever.
And that's why you picked up the book. You're like, you read a chat.
We either we either allow we either allow people to edit it out or they can have their thinking time in the edit whatever they prefer.
Okay, law, take your time.
It's a fun question. So I prefer it when people think.
About it and I don't think this is something that you can legislate, so I wouldn't want to force it, but it would be like a strong suggestion which is around kindness, which is that maybe I'll use this phrase from the Dala Lama that I like better than kindness because kindness can sound very planned.
Why selfishness?
That if you want to do selfishness correctly, you will be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the best of your ability, because.
That is how you will get happier.
And if we lived our lives, all of us with that as a north star, which again I don't know if I could make it a law, but I could make it a strongly held policy. I think that would change a lot. I think that would change I'm not a utopian. I don't believe that we can create a perfect world, but I think that we can create a much better world if we play to people's self interest in a way that really is in their self interest instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on.
Now that actually, your abiding happiness is going to be found in.
Kindness. And I wish there was a less cheesy way to say that.
That's a great answer.
More more than a sentence.
It's perfect. It was perfect. The tenth anniversary edition of Dan's book Ten Percent Happy, How I tend the voice in my head? Would you stressed? Without losing my edge? And found self help that actually works a true story is available right now, of course with the tenth anniversary edition. That's amazing. Congratulations, that's pretty so much.
For Rayer now when the book came out, and.
Of course subscribe to Dan's podcast Ten Percent Happier as well. Dan, thank you so much for coming onto on purpose. This was such a refreshing and really really beautiful organic conversation. And I appreciate you going there with me because that's kind of the space I've been in on the show recently of wanting to get lost with someone.
Right just to go into a flow.
Yeah, it's so interesting to meet you because I mean, this is a long way of saying thank you. It's just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you from Afar for a million years and then just to like walk into this hotel room.
You're like this dude who just shows up. Hey, how you doing? Like you're way more casual.
And down to earth than I might have expected, and so it's really fun to like put an actual person to me there.
That's very sweet. I really appreciate that. Thank you so much. And maybe we're doing a terrible job at the brand new That's not how I come.
Across, No, it's it's my own paranoia.
It's like, I'm like, God, the guys are going to get it together. No, I really appreciate that. Thank you so much.
That's usually when you when I I I meet a I've met a lot of well known people in my job as a journalist because I have my job to interview them, and it's rare that I like people more after meeting them based on their public persona.
And so that's what I was trying.
To thank you. That's very kind of that's very kind. It's that's I really appreciate that thank you. I received that deeply, and I think it's really hard. I've I've definitely struggled with this just I can only be fully myself with someone I'm in person with. It's it's impossible to I find it impossible to be your whole self on a thirty second video or you know, if someone listens to the podcast, I feel they know me because they're hearing, you know, full conversations of an hour each
week so or every day. Some people listen to it like IVO. If someone listens to the podcast, they have a deep, deep understanding of Meal if they've read the books. But if someone's just seeing something on social media, they have such a limited view. And it's so hard to portray yourself in that way or in your true self. So I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Thank you Dan, thanks for having me. It's been a real treat. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to
this conversation. If you enjoyed it, you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential. If you know you want to be more and achieve more this year, go check it out right now.
You set a goal today, you achieve it in six months, and then by the time it happens, it's almost a relief.
There's no sense of meaning and purpose.
You sort of expected it, and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen.