What is supposed to be for you will come to you. And if it wasn't meant to come to you, it won't. You are good enough.
The best selling ardor on Most, the number one healthy wellness podcast and Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health and wellness podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn, and grow. I'm so grateful for our incredible community here. The incredible response we've received to the episodes of Late
It has just been unbelievable. Whether it's you sharing your greatest lesson on Instagram or some of you making videos about episodes on TikTok or sharing a tweet, it really means the world to me to see how many things you're changing about your mindset and your lifestyle in order to live healthier, more healed, happier lives. And today I'm speaking to a guest who I've interviewed very briefly before.
I was doing a Facebook audio room called safe Space, and this was during the pandemic, and I got to connect with this guest and since that day, I have not stopped thinking about or quoting this conversation to people. So when people will say to me, like, Oh, who's the most interesting person you've interviewed recently, this person's name comes up a million times in conversation, and I'll talk about her creative process and how she gets into character.
And I've rarely had that feeling where I think someone's words stay with me for that long. I'm always blown away by my guests, but for things to stay with me repetitively, and then we've kept in touch, We've had we've had a few messages back and forth, but today finally got to meet her. I'm speaking about the one and only Cynthia Arrivo, Grammy, Emmy, and Tony Award winning actress, singer, and producer, as well as an Academy Award, Golden Globe
and SAG nominee. Cynthia burst onto the West End and Broadway stages in the color purple and has since taken the world by storm. Cynthia was recently nominated for a SAG and Emmy Award for her critically acclaimed portrayal of a Ritha Franklin in National Geographics Emmy winning Global anthology series Genius Arefa. If you've not seen it. I highly recommend it. Cynthia will hit the screen in early September with Disney's live action retelling of Pinocchio, my favorite story
growing up. I can't wait, and Cynthia will take on the iconic role of the Blue Fairy. How cool. Cynthia let was the lead in the h Boys series The Outsider, and Cynthia starred in Harriot, where she brought the legacy of Harriet Tubman to the big screen. I actually don't know anyone who's played this. Many iconic people in their lifetime usually just get one go, and Cynthia's taking them all up. Cynthia lent her voice to the movie's title song,
stand Up, which he co wrote. Stand Up won Best Original Song at the Hollywood Music in Media Awards, and both Cynthia and Stand Up were nominated for two Academy Awards as well as two Golden Globe Awards in the categories of Best Actress in a Motion Picture Drama and Best Original Song. Stand Up also received a nomination for a Grammy Award in the category of Best Song Written for Visual Media. Please Welcome to the Show, Cynthia, Riva, Cynthia, It is awesome.
Good to see you.
It's good to see you. And even the first few moments we've had. Yeah, you know, there's something about hearing a British accent brings it home, doesn't It's I feel so like embraced. I just heard your voice come up the hill when you were coming up, and I was like, sounds I feel like I'm growing up, like you've just gone back to being a teenager. Do I make you feel that way? Yeah?
Like whenever I hear because you know, fall in such purposes, this is home. But whenever I hear an accent that's that sounds like where I'm from, it makes it even more home. It's like, oh, I really recognize that. I feel like it's a warm hug. Hello.
Do I still have it though? That's okay, that's good. Yeah. I always get worried. I feel like you're probably bringing out more of me. I always fel like I'm quite the chameleons sometimes with my Yeah, my wife always makes fun of me because she's like, every time we talk to one of our family in India, you just put on an Indian accent, and I do it really unknowingly. I do it as like that.
I think we each have depending on where from. We have like traces of what that is, so I know that when I'm talking to my Nigerian friends. We've been listening to that accent since we were kids, so it's not that we aren't we don't have the accent. It's sort of like embedded on our brains, so it just comes out when we're together. It's sort of like the comfortability of it comes out. So I think it's the
same as when we're around other English people. The comfortability of speaking with an English accent, yes comes to life. There are terms when I have to sort of like shift certain words whenever I'm I'm speaking to other American people. There are words that get sort of misunderstood. So I might say one thing and they'll be like, what does that mean? So I'll find the American version of that word and repeat it. And there are times when I've had to change the accent to make sure that we're
both understanding. We get lost in translation. So I totally understand why it might be stronger when you're speaking to me, because now you don't have to make it any milder because you know that I'll understand everything you say.
Absolutely. Yeah, there was this I remember when he first moved here and my wife would be at the grocery store and she'd be like, can I get a tin of beans please? Like what's a tin can? Yeah, She's like, where's the tin of this? And tin of that? And then there was the one that I always I started changing my language from being pounds to dollars, and so I'd be in a video or an interview, yeah, I'd be saying dollars and then all my all my brit friends in the comment section would be like, oh, we
see where you are now. You know you left us now, so yeah, what was your you were stock call right? Yeah, I'm North London. So I grew up in like wood Green, Tottenham, Mary like that was That's where I grew up. What's something that we kind of moved to the States around the same time, we just found out What's something that you miss about but you love about la.
I love the sunshine in l a. I love that there's there's it's so bright a lot of the time, and that it's warm a lot of the time. But there is something really wonderful about the way the weather changes in London in the UK, the way you get the seasons. Obviously, I miss family. I don't get to see them as often as as I would do if I was there. And like silly things like biscuits, because biscuits here are very different to biscuits there.
Which ones are your favorite biscuits?
Digestives Mcvitty's Digestives or like hobnobs.
Oh yeah, I love rich tea.
Yeah, so good, the.
One or whatever that ones are so good.
Like little things like that, you just sort of like miss Layers also are not the same as Walkers. Walkers are really good. Lays are good too, but all of Walker's packets you have to find like the right Yeah, you know, silly things like that.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I love talking about it because it's same for me. It's interesting you said that. I think I often feel that sometimes when I'm back in England and it's like, oh, you live in Hollywood now and you live in LA And I'm like, well, no to me. I live in LA because the weather's incredible. End. I love waking up to a blue sky every day. Yeah. And I love the fact that I can go on a hike. Yeah right here it can be in nature. I hike for about two miles every day around my
home and it's just I love that. I never could have done that in London. I never did. And at the same time, I miss a lot of it. I miss going to watch a football match because I love football and so for me being able to go to going to watch a game and like feeling the energy of the fans, yeah, yeah, it's it's it's special. There's like a special vibe around it. But what I like to doing on purpose is I like to dive into
people's journeys, people's stories. Parts of them. We're not we're not following a linear or you know, we're not trying to do it by graphical peace, But I love diving into stuff. And I saw that you went to a Roman Catholic school. Yeah yeah, How is that influence now when you look back who you are today? Positive? Things that were challenging, Like, how do you grapple with that today?
What does it feel like growing up and going to a Roman Catholic school.
There's a girls school too, all girls school.
Yeah, it's strange because I never really felt like I totally fit in there. I believe in God, but that sort of upbringing felt really restrictive. It's so rules based that you sort of miss the most important parts of what that faith is supposed to be about. And I kind of let a lot of the Roman Catholic side of me go just so that I create I could create space for me to form my own understanding of
what my faith should encompass. Right now, I'm really clear on the fact that the most important part of my faith is to be as loving and kind to people, to the world around me. Not just people. But I have two dogs, so I can't take care of them in the most loving way because I want that to come back to me. So I believe things are really cyclical, so if you give out something good, that good will come back. You might not see it immediately, but somehow
it finds its way back to you. It's like a boomerang, you know. And I think that that is really the most important part of my faith. And I sort of encouraged myself to really take in what is around me so that I can appreciate the wonderful things that come. You know, the fact that I can get up in the morning and go for a run and it's really sunny, and as I passed by, there are two today when I ran, there were two women who stopped and I saw them as they passed by, they smiled and I
was like, let's love of them smiling. And I ran back and somehow managed to meet them again. How I don't know. I ran three miles, I you know, just did a quick five k, but somehow on my way back we met in exactly the same place and they stopped and I stopped and they just were like, we were just really impressed. I don't know, what, what are
you running for? I'm running for the marathon. I was, oh, okay, great, And just those little interactions are really special because well, we don't know how either one of us is going to influence our day, and to be able to stop and have that conversation with the person and smile at someone and you know, have something positive means that we've put something positive into each other. And I think that
that is really what it is about for me. And I understand that everyone has their own understanding of faith, but for me, we're in Catholicism sort of doesn't give us the space to embrace all of that.
It's always really interesting hearing someone's reflection in hindsight, because I don't know how it felt at that time whether it felt the same way. But I went to an all boys school. So I went to Queen Elizabeth's Boys School in Barnet, and I used to take like a forty five minute bus or to an hour bus sometimes just to get there every day. My parents had worked really hard for me to prepare for exams to get into this school, and it wasn't private, but it was
a great education. And at the time, it's like all of us didn't want to go there because it was so strict, it was so like disciplined. But I found a few teachers there that kind of had this openness, and so I had my art teacher at the time, mister Buckeridge, who's still there, I believe, and we keep in touch now and again. But he just helped me
think so differently. So in this space where they were like rules and discipline, there was a teacher who just kind of I just knew how to navigate enough where you were in the rules but not too much. And he helped me so much with my thought process and my mindset. And now when I look back, I'm really grateful that I have this really beautiful experience where I feel like I have equal parts discipline, right, and equal
parts artistry, And I really embraced those two sides. I was wondering with you, like you.
You're right, You're very right. Actually, you're really right about that, that there is that sort of like tandem of discipline and artistry. My favorite music teacher, my music teacher, and a French teacher for some reason, sort of stuck to me. Miss Ryecraft and Madame Chesley. They both just wanted me to blossom as a creative. Madame Chesley wouldn't let me get away without speaking some sort of French to her all the time, and now I love the language very
much so. And Miss Ryecraft made me learn every kind of instruments I could possibly put my hands on and seeing everything I could possibly sing. But it also gave me the discipline of wanting to learn, wanting to be as good as I want to be at these particular subjects. And you're right in that there is a wonderful sort of melding of creativity and discipline that has definitely influenced how I live and how I've lived so far.
Yeah, I was thinking that with you because when you brought up running, Yeah, you've got to be really disciplined. When I see your stories or postally running literally, I'm like, I'm an anxiety. I'm like, I'm so glad. I was like, I'm becoming friends with Cynthia, I hope. But as long as she doesn't invite me on a run, we're good. Like she wants to do a hike, I could do that, but it's you record. It's requited so much discipline, so much energy, And that's that's all. I'm running first, and
then we'll move into your artistry. But when you look at how much you're running, you just said you run a half marathon.
Run a half marathon? Are over the weekend and then this every day is about eight miles except for today, which is supposed to be a break day. So I did five k and then on the weekend it's sixteen to eighteen And how do you find time.
For this in between roles and prep and like, is this something that continues? This?
It just goes on.
That's I agree that.
Like I've been running since I was twenty. My first marathon was twenty sixteen. I think I had one mini break in between. I was I remember I was in Atlantan just decided let me get back to it, and haven't stopped since then. It's an ongoing journey that teaches you about discipline, your stamina, how your mind works, how you psych yourself out sometimes, how you can buoy yourself and lift yourself up. And I gained so much from it,
believe me. There are days when I do not want to get outside or on a treadmill and do any of it, but that also is a moment for me to sort of learn. There are days when yes, it's good to stop, take a second and not do the run today. But other days it's how can I overcome this moment where I'm like, truly not wanting to do it? And those days when I'm able to overcome those moments when I'm like, I do not want to do this. Often other days when the runs are the best, which
is very strange, but I love it. It has provided space to think. It's provided moments where I've made friends along the way. People are now used to seeing me do certain routes, so I always bump into people and I say hello, and it just it gives me a lot. The physical aspect is, yes, your body loves it. It's great to work out, But it's more a mental thing
than anything else. Distance running really is more mental than physical because once your physical is done, if you get to eighteen past half marathon, it really is sort of like, okay, mind, how will you get past the rest of this? And that's always a really wonderful sort of adventure.
Yeah. Have you felt that that approach to anxiety and psyching you yourself out? Have you feel that become applied to life through that process of running? Like? Yeah, because you give us an example of how that.
Is, Because honestly, it's those days are the step by step days. That's that's what I call them. You just take one step, then take the next step, and take the next, and the next and the next, and you'll realize at some point you're running. That's and that's essentially what happens with me with other things. This is a silly example. I had to redo my closet. Everything was taken out of it, and I've had to put it all back together again. And when I first looked at
this task, it just looked mammoth. I was like, there's no way I'm going to get this back in order again. And I looked at it and would go away and go I'm not it's not going to get done. I can't do it. I can't do it. And then one day I just said, just start, just start to start. Nothing else after that. If you just start, something will get done. Even if it's like one small section, you will have started, and the next day just start again. It's the same for it from learning a piece or
a song that just won't stay. I'll just start, learn the first line and just keep going over the first line, and sooner or later the first line will be in there and you want to go into the next line. You do a piece, or you're playing a character you just can't understand. Just read the lines. Read the lines, find out what other people are saying, find out what the journey is, and then sooner or later you'll want
to get to know this character. Another way to get to know this character is probably to learn the character. And when you learn the character, well you've learned the character. Now you know it. All these sort of little mountains or trials, they're just they aren't always easy, but if you just start, you might be able to get over them. Even when you're running hills. I never look at that, And you know, sometimes you're told look straight ahead. I always look at the bit in front of me. My
eyes are never pointed upward. When I'm walking up a hill. I'm always like, if I can just get my foot in front of this next foot, and if I could just keep going bit by bit by bit, as sooner or later, when I look up, I'll be at the top of the hill. And that's always what's happened. And it's the one thing that doesn't that keeps me from stopping in the middle of a hill. I just keep going,
one foot in the front of the other. My eyes are pointed downwards because I know that there's only one foot that keep can that the only thing that can happen is I'm going to put my foot in front of my foot again. And then eventually the hill sort of flattens out, and you're like, oh, I got there, I made it, Okay, Yeah, I keep going. It's good.
Yeah, that's so powerful. I love that perspective because I think you are right there. We've kind of been trained in society to look at the goal, look at the target, figure out the end point. And you're so right that if you ever try and run or whatever you do, whether it's hiking or anything, swimming or whatever. If you're looking at the end constantly, you'll keep measuring how far you are away from exactly. I know that I don't
run anywhere close to as much as you do. But when I have ever run before, when I have looked at the end, I'm just like, how am I going to get so far away? I'm still so far away? Okay, I'll get to that point and then I'll walk and then you know whatever, and then you start negotiating with yourself, right, rather than if you are just looking at it. It's the same when we were taught to meditate as monks.
I lived as a month for three years, and when we were trained in that practice, we always meditated on beads. And you get this beautiful set of beads. So I still have them today, and there's one hundred and eight of them, which is a sacred number. And you're told to just focus on one bead at a time, right, And the mind is like, oh, I've got to get one hundred and eight beads and you've got to do this multiple times and whatever it is. And so we're talking, no,
just one bead at a time, one step at a time. One, you know, and just start. I love that as I love that as a view of like, just start today and you'll thank yourself later. You'll figure it out.
I can't tell you how many times people have asked, how do you how do you even do that? How do you run so much? I like, I want to start, I'm not sure what to do, and how like I'm never going to be able to run that distance. No one is asking you to run that distance. Just go outside and stop. Yeah, that's it, putting your sneakers. Even if you only make it to the door, that's more than you did yesterday. Yes, and then maybe you'll make it in front of the door tomorrow, and then maybe
you'll make it just down your street. That is a run. Yeah, five minutes of running is a run. Yes, it doesn't need to be half an hour, an hour, two hours, Two minutes is a run. Just start. Just a little bit is enough and then you'll find more later. You'll find that you are asking. Your mind is asking your body is asking for a little bit more because the five minutes that you did is now what I can do that I'll do more.
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on the pod cover by eight sleep. That's the best offer you'll find, but you must visit eightsleep dot com forward slash Purpose for one hundred and fifty dollars off. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, the UK, select countries in the EU and Australia. Were you always athletic? Like, was that always a part of your life growing up?
Like, Yeah, I've always I've always been athletic, whether it be dance or sport. I was a sprinter when I was younger, That's what I sort of wanted to do. And then my very first sort of distance round was a five K and it was for cancer research, and I just wanted to do something and I saw this run happening in a park nearby, and I started doing it, and I don't know, I sort of was telling myself
that I can't run outside. I'm not going to be able to and then I just figured it out, just w I'll just find a route And that's sort of what happened. And I haven't really stopped since then.
Yeah, when you applied that to your career, Now, did little Cynthia ever think that? You know? And I don't want to simplify, and I'm very careful about this. I never like to simplify someone's success to external accomplishments and awards. But did little Cynthia like growing up in stockworld, like you know, and you look at the journey you've been on, and you know Emmy, Grammy, Tony and more importantly, you've
paid iconic people who transformed culture. And your work is educating people on these incredible personalities that history can try to forget or doesn't know enough about, or doesn't know the depth of the story. Like, what would little Cynthia say to you?
Now?
Like looking at all of that like, who believed in you back then? Like was there? Did your parents? Did your family? Like? Who knew this was possible? Did anyone?
My mom believed in me sort of from the beginning. She knew when I was a kid that that was sort of what I was going to do. Apparently I would hum when I ate, so she she was like, it's probably going to be a singer or an actor. So that sort of, like it was came at no surprise to her that this is what I sort of wanted to do. And my sister, you know, has always been around for everything that happened to her. She's always believed in it and has come to some of the
shows and seen some things. And you know, I have really wonderful friends, Mum. One of my friends, pri Hakeem, who I've known for almost seventeen or eighteen years at this point, has just always been there and like always has gotten it and believed in me. And I have some really incredible friends who I'm getting to watch do amazing things now as well, but they also believe in me. And I've been lucky enough to be surrounded by some
wonderful people. Little Cynthia believed in herself, although I'm not entirely sure that she knew how much was coming. She sort of kept her head down and just was like, wow, too much. It was always a game of like, i'll try this. Okay, I'll do that. Now I'm game to like, I'll do some backing vocals for this person, I'll go and sing it at this sort of club and do all those things, and I'll try this young access course.
And there's just like it's a combination of yes, hard work, but also loving the adventure and wanting to try new things and wanting to not miss out on something if I don't enjoy, you know, I think that she would probably pat me on the back and give me the mischievous look that I give most people when I'm like that's good, and be really really happy, and then she'd be like, what else are we going to do?
Yeah?
What else can we do?
That's awesome? Yeah, I love that. And it's so I actually realized it's more and more that a lot of people that I speak to did have people that believed in them, Like there was that, and I love hearing that. I think it's important to normalize that too, where it's like, hey, if you believe in your kids. It's great, it's good. Yeah, yeah you should. And then if there's people out there who grew up with parents who didn't believe in them, yeah that's great. You get resilient that way. But it's
beautiful to hear that there's two ways. There's not like this, Oh well, you should have had everyone telling you you're never going to make it and that's the only way. And you're like, I, actually I had really good friends around me.
Yeah, yeah, you know, And I think I just sort of like have been consistently sort of finding my tribe and finding people who who are challenging me and wanting me to keep being better and keep doing things that are different and than there are those friends who are just we're here when you want to have like a normal day and a cap of ty and like sit down and chat, and we need both. And I love that balance because it is kind of what life is
made of. There's never always just the one way to be, and I think both influenced the other.
Yeah, you've been known for playing so many iconic people. Now when was a role where a role that you've played that you feel you loved but it wasn't as well known or it was something that maybe wasn't as successful, but that you really found that you just fell in love with it, and that it became a part of you.
I'm going to say Holly Gibney in The Outsider, although that did pretty well, That did pretty well. I've loved the roles that I've played, and I've picked I picked them really specifically because I want to get to know this person. And you know, if I always say this, if I if I haven't met this person before, either on screen or in life, I'd like to meet them. So I that's why I play them. I want to get to know who they are and what makes them tick.
And Holly was just so different. She just she was very hard to shake. She was a woman who found it hard to communicate, but really all she wanted was connection and so had to learn to find ways to make herself understood and when she was misunderstood would be deeply hurt by it. Extremely intelligent, a brilliant, brilliant mind, but also deeply loving in the most individual way. And I just had never played anyone like her before I had.
And what's wonderful about that particular role is I get everyone from every different type of walk of life in any place, sort of going that show that you did on HBO with Holly given that I loved it, she was one of my favorites. Or remember a person said to me he was connecting with his system more because of this particular role and realize that, oh, my sister just communicates in a different way than I do. And
this was the thing that joined us together. And I thought, that's what it's about, making pieces that allow people to connect with each other.
Yeah, you know, Yeah, that's beautiful. I love hearing that as well because it's and it's what I appreciate about our conversation last time. As I was saying earlier, it was like the way you think about characters and the way you get into them. I'm fascinated by that, and I love geeking out and like I love seeing people obsessed with their art, Like that's what gets me excited
in life. It's like when I meet someone who's obsessed about what they do, because I'm obsessed with what I do and I can never understand how you obsess over the things you do. Can you describe to me again, because you told me about this last time, but I
want to hear it again. For on purpose for this community, because you were talking about how like when you're playing roles you look at how people walk, Oh yeah, And I was like, and how they talk to figure out their pitch and then like the rhythm of their walk and the pacer, And I was just like, I would never think of any of that, But because it tells you so much, walk us through when you meet a new character, walk us through how you understand them. Yeah.
So when I meet a new character up here, I'll read a scripts and the first thing I think of, what is the rhythm of this person? Usually there's a rhythm sort of written in in the way they speak, in the way that in their syntax and the words they use. When you find that rhythm, you sort of find their internal like heartbeat, You find their heartbeat. And then I'm sort of like, well, how do they move? What is it that they're looking for? Is there an urgency to how they move? If they walk fast, are
they moving away from something? Are they trying to get to something quickly? Do they think fast or if they move slowly? Are they apprehensive about something or are they really laid back about things? Do they have nothing to worry about? If they're anxious. Maybe that's why they move fast, or maybe it's the opposite. Maybe they're so anxious that they are paralyzed that they can't move at all, So they move really slowly because what if I get there
and something happens? And so I just sort of like find what fits on this person. And then it's about, well, how do they speak if they are confident, Well, maybe they don't need to make themselves sound really sweet, and so their voices aren't as high pitch, or maybe they are sort of held, and so they're a little bit quiet and things feel a little bit whispered. And there's a really interesting documentary about Princess Diana and I she's really fun to listen to because her voice changes as
the years go by. When you first meet her, it's almost like she's whispering and swallowing the words, and she doesn't really use her mouth very much, and it's very quiet and very reserved. And as you meet her as the years go by, when she's sort of like, now I know who I am, she starts to use her mouth more. So she sounds really rounded. And that's sort of what you're discovering about these people. And I love that. I love trying to find out what is this person?
How do they grow? And do they grow through through meeting them and through these episodes through the film. Does it change? Does it shift? Do they move more confidently? Do they move more smoothly? Are they quick? Are they darted? So many questions I would ask myself, and then silly things like what scent do they use? Because we all have sense memory, So if there's a particular scent they use, is it because it reminds them of something? And when I put that scent on, does it make me think
of something? Or do they like makeup? And if they do like makeup, is there a particular way they do it? Do they want their eyebrows messy or do they want them very tidy? When they put the clothes on, are they looking for comfort or not? With Holly, I always wore a button up because it felt like protection. Her neck was covered, and she was wore comfortable shoes so she could move easily and she wouldn't think about her feet.
But those things are you know, they change. With Aretha, she needed heels and she needed a look and she did her eyebrows particularly, and they were a particular shape with an inky black line, you know. And with Seay it changed when she put trousers on. She could walk better, and she had a heel, a thick, blocky heel that meant that she could like make sound when she moved. Before then she was in a shorter heel with that was like a soft shoe that made no sound at all.
So it meant that she could move really quickly because if she didn't move quickly, she'd be in danger. So it's about that how do you find all the things that make this person around person so that when you when you meet them on screen, you're like, oh, I can see this person and their three dimensional, four dimensional and not just someone that I read a script on.
Where did that ability and skill come from? Because obviously it can be seen as a technique, but when you talk about it, it's not a technique. It's something that you know. It's it's not just like, oh, you've read that in a book and yeah, it's it's how you think and how you feel and how you empathize with this person. Even when you were talking about Diana, there's someone obviously who've not played. It's like, but you're watching that and you're you're able to observe that where did
that skill come from? How did it develop? Do you remember, like where when did you start? Did you start doing that when you watch TV when you were a kid, or did you you know where? Yeah, where did it come from?
Not even sure when it started. I think I've always been a people watcher. I think I've always observed how people move, how people are, so that I can better communicate with them myself. I haven't always been perfect, but like that seems to be my sort of cheat code to knowing what a person needs from me in conversation. I sometimes watch people's lips to make sure that I'm really listening, you know, or watch their eyes, because those are the places that give you what the emotional life
of a person is. And I think I've always just applied that to my everyday life. And then when I went to drama school, I was he learning about actioning and making sure that there is a reason for something and what is the reason for the thing you're saying. What we say is fifty percent of what we mean. Often how we say it, and what we're thinking as we say it. The words and aren't necessarily the thing that we're thinking they're just a representation of how we're feeling.
And until you know, when we're not afraid, the words are the thing that we're thinking. But often with people, when we're saying the thing that we think, the other person wishes to hear as opposed to what we want to say. And so I learn about that in drama school and then just applied it to the bigger, you know, space of my life. And then I you know, as you get older, you start to want to connect with people, and that desire to connect properly with people, I think
just feeds into my work. I want people to connect with the people I get to play, and I call them people because I don't see them as just characters.
When you see the people you're playing, or what people would know as characters, as whole and realized people, you get to know them better, which means you get to give another person, introduce a person to everybody watching, and so they get to connect and feel as though these are real people out in the world that I might not come in contact with, but they exist, and I want that for the people that I play. That's the desire for connect consistently with my characters.
Yeah, do you do you feel that sometimes? And I coach a lot of people who act and stuff, not in acting obviously in life and work, but how do you often feel as well that sometimes those people become a part of you and that do do you try and shed them? Do you try hold onto them? Like? Do you do you like that? Like? Because I don't
think that's talked about enough. I think we hear about in the extreme sense, is a method acting gone wrong or like when it leads to like, you know, the tragic event of someone taking their own life, and we hear about and there's very extreme, but I don't think we talk about it enough with actors who are you know, going about their day taking on new roles, and like how long it takes to become someone and then lose someone?
And you know, like right now, everyone saying Austin Butler sounds like Elvis in every interview, And the thing is.
I feel for him because I know that that he's not putting that on. Yeah, of course not it happens, and it's very different for every single person. But for me, it takes a while to lose a character because if you've done your job correctly, they weren't just a character. They were a part of you. You had to infuse this person with some of you, and they have to come from you. They're in your body. They use your voice, they use your face, they use your mannerisms. You create
them together. They take up space within you. They take up a little bit of your heart because you have to mean in the things you're saying. And when you finish the role, usually after a couple of months, three months, sometimes six, I'm about to play a character for a year. They are a part of you. And what people don't realize is your body doesn't realize that it's not real. It thinks that this thing happening is you. It's real.
So you have to at the end of it, let your body know that it's okay to let this thing go. But it's going to take a while because you've learned to teach your body to do it. Quickly, get to that person, Quickly, remove the thing that you know is your everyday life, and get to the person that you're playing every day quickly. That's what you want, the quicker access. So now the access is really quick and to the point where, well, now you don't really have to think
about getting into the role because you're already there. You wake up in the morning, you know, oh, I'm going to put this on and this is and there we go. Do you look at your mirror and I'm here. There we go. Hi, nice to meet you. And at the end of a project, it takes some time. Some projects are easier, like getting out of the Blue Faery very easy. I didn't have to shoot for very long, so it's lovely and I know it's fantasy and it didn't cost
me too much. Getting out of Aretha, getting out of Harriet, getting out of Holly very different things because I was there for months with these people. Holly was hilarious because she had a to her walk was very different. Someone sent me a video of me walking about on set and I was like, that is not me. That's not me. Posture was different, warp was different. Wait, the way I
moved my head was different. The way I spoke to people, and even my hair and makeup team were sort of like you would come into trailer and it was not you. That's not who we met. We met Holly most of the time, and it would take a while to let them go. The person I just played. Her name's Jacqueline. I spent three four months with her, and I still remember everything she went through as though it was me. And it takes time. If you mean it, it will take time.
Support.
Austin Butler is walking around with this accent because I imagine he shot this film for six months to a year, so had to learn this sound. And when you learn an it doesn't just leave you. You know, he may slip into it just Biax not even thinking about it, because that's the person he played. He paid, he played a person that existed for six to nine months or something and prepare and prepared it before then and then rehearsed it and then sang the songs like well, he
put a voice on top of his own. That's not going to go because the film is over. There's no way it can.
Yeah, how does that affect your relationships during that time? Like I wonder, how does that affect your personal life? Because because like you're saying, it's not as easy as like on off, on off. You know, it's not like there's a switch. Yeah, how does that affect like your.
Friend it's always easy, but if you have people around you that are understanding of the job you're doing, there's just patient with you. I have been savvy enough to get myself a really good therapist so I can talk about it. Talking about it really helps to let go of it because you can find the separation between yourself and the person you are playing. The more you talk about it, the less it's you, and the more you
let them go. The more you allow your body the permission to let go of something which is a life lesson, not just an acting lesson, the easier it becomes to let it go.
What was your reason for going to therapy? Was that? The reason was that part of it? Or yes?
That and just like life things things you know, I my mum raised me, my father wasn't around, and those we don't realize that that sticks to the bones of a person. You don't realize it because it comes out in different ways. And I just wanted to be freer of that. So I wanted to give myself more access to the fully emotional parts of myself. And in order to do that, I had to let go of any resentment or any upset. And it doesn't go overnight, but
it helps to create space. I wanted to be just better at understanding relationships I have in general, where I am mistaking something for hurt as opposed to if I'm thinking someone is being mean, I need to know what are they going through? Also because it might not be vindictive, it might not be a mean thing. It might just be that they are also hurting. But is what in me is seeing their hurt as mean? Am I hurting in a place? So it's just finding better ways to
communicate with people. Therapies really helped me with that, Like how do I want to communicate best with people? How can I show up as my best self? And that's not always to lay the groundwork for really great communication.
Yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way. I've never heard it described like that. Yeah, I actually think that's a really refreshing description because it's almost like, I think we literally run from conflict here, yes, unease here, discomfort yeah, And it's like personally, professionally, family, whatever it may be, and you're just you're running from discomfort to discomfort to discompany and you never had time to think about it. Yeah,
you never had time to prepare. Yeah, you never had time to debrief, Like you know, you may do that at work, but when do you debrief personally after an altercation with someone and therapy or coaching or the ability to talk to someone in your life, like you get to start going, oh, well, I've actually thought about this, right, and here's how I feel about it, rather than I'm just feeling, I'm just feeling. I'm just feeling.
And also those feelings end up being exacerbated because you're just talking to yourself. Yes, you can't really process something if you're just talking to yourself. You need ears that can say, well, well, I know that you're feeling that, but here's what I'm hearing as you say this to me. That has been a wonderful game changer. When the words that you're saying are not actually the thing that you are saying. Yeah, that's not what you're feeling. The thing you're saying is not the thing.
Yes, yes, And that's what we all struggle with, is that we are This misalignment between what we're thinking and saying and feeling is so much more widespread than we think. Yeah, yeah, Well, what's a belief that you think that you held once about yourself that led you down a scary path or a wrong path? Is there a belief or a value or an idea you held about yourself that you think didn't take you in a great direction.
I don't know that there is anything like that. I think just little things that come up. Sometimes you question whether you're good enough for something. We all suffer from that in a little way, and some you know more than others, varying degrees. And when you're younger if feels huge, and then as I've gotten older, it creeps it in occasionally, and then I sort of I allow myself to know that what is supposed to be for you will come to you, and if it wasn't meant to come to you,
it won't. You are good enough full start, if you're doing the work to be a good person, to prepare for the work that you want. If I spend the time, you know, running every day. No, it is a holistic thing that I give myself. My therapist said to me, when you do something, or you eat something, or you buy something or drink something, ask yourself, are you loving yourself when you do that? And if the answer is yes, well then you've done a good job. And if the
answer is maybe not, to something different. If your life is a series of things that you know are goodness you and they are a series of things that are what is known as loving yourself. Then you are good enough, and all you're doing is prepping yourself for whatever is supposed to come to you. Every time I've gone I wanted to do that, and it doesn't come my way.
Every time something else comes up and I go, oh, got it, I know I wasn't supposed to do that, because that thing came and that thing is awesome, so I want to do that thing. Thank you, Universe, Thank you God for taking that out. The way I always say to people, every no is just room for a yes. Every no is just room for the thing that is supposed to happen. You're making room for the yes that's supposed to be there.
I loved your response to that imposter syndrome as we call it today, that you felt that the idea that anything that comes to you is meant to come to you. Yeah. So even if you feel that way, and I feel that way often sprints and posters in them. All the time. I get to do incredible things that I could never have even imagined. You're dreamt of doing, and then this opportunity comes your way, and you're scared before you prepare.
You're scared before you even get there, and you haven't and you haven't experienced it yet, so you have no idea what you're stepping into yet. You just know it's a good thing in front of you, and like, what if I'm not good enough for it? Am I supposed to be here? Yes, you're supposed to be here, not just because you're the person that's supposed to do it, but you're the person that's supposed to experience it, because
your experience is valuable. If you share your experience, maybe you're the person that changes someone else's mind about this particular experience because someone else might be petrified of leaning into it. But because you're the person that is experiencing it, you're the right person to send the message to the next person. You see what I mean?
Absolutely? Yeah, that is so crystal clear. I love that. Yeah, No, it's that's exactly what I'm saying. That The what's really clicking for me is you're speaking is that idea that it's come to me, it's for me to experience, it's for me to go through, and that what we do is we're scared before you get through it, and you probably did better than you thought you would, and then afterwards you critique yourself of how you didn't do a great job, and then when the next thing comes along,
you do the same thing all over again. And what you're saying is just so fascinating that, Yeah, it's for you to experience. I think that's beautiful, Like that's even better than just this for you to do, yeah, or for you to have. It's like, no, there's an experience here that's been perfectly crafted you just for you. Yeah, And we don't always live in that miracle or like
live in that space. What have you felt like about what you're doing right now that's come that way that you're like, oh, this was just for me, Like this is the experience I was meant to have. Was there something recently or something that's coming up?
I doing Wicked? So there was another so call that I really wanted to do and it didn't quite work out. And because it didn't work out, it meant that I was available to even be seen for Wicked. And now I'm doing it and it came in out of nowhere. I one day my agent Gordon was like, so they're seeing people for Wicked, And I was like, I had no idea this was even happening. And now now it is what it is and I'm doing it, and this
is so far has been a really wonderful experience. I've been talking to John, our director, and Ariana, and we're really sort of like finding our sort of group, like what is our what is the group mind wanting? What do we want to tell with this story? How do we want it to look? What do we want people to feel? How we want to feel when we do it? All of those things. And it wouldn't have happened if there was a yes there, because this yes was supposed to come, you know, yeah, yeah.
How does it feel when you're working with other incredibly creative people that one mind can be really challenging. There's one getting your mind right and being like I know what I'm doing. Yeah, Now you've got three sets of imposter syndrome, three sets of excitement, three sets of artists. Like what have you figured out as by now? Like is there a system of process that you can follow to help to make everyone feel comfortable? Like? How does that work?
Often it's about thinking less about and I know this sounds counterintuitive, but less about what you need and more about what they need. What does this person need in this moment to feel confident enough that they can go through this with you? What can I do to make you understand that I am here for you as well? And if I'm here for you, you can be here for me. And therefore we can think together, we can
figure it out together. And I think that once that's sort of established, it's just about throwing ideas and like, what about this? There's no wrong idea like creating a space for when you want a one mind idea, it's about that's actually about creating a safe space. And we hear the words safe space used a lot, but that is really what it is, creating a safe surrounding so that we can throw anything at the wall, Like is
what about this? It might sound completely ridiculous, outlandish, but it's okay to throw it in this circle because we're all going to appreciate it. We might it might not be quite right, but we're going to be like, actually, this thing about the thing that's outlandish actually might work. What if we applied it to this thing here and made it work that way? Then we're all now we're of one mind, we're of one accord. We might have different thoughts and different ideas, but somehow they all come
together because we're all there for the same purpose. If you find out what the purpose is, we're all going in the same direction, well then you can't necessarily go wrong. You won't really have to manage everyone's sort of imposter syndrome because it's not about us, it's about the bigger picture at hand. How do we approach this challenge together and make it work?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that idea of I think that space of there's no bad ideas and that don't judge someone for their bad ideas, judge them for their great ones.
Yeah, and judge them for the bravery to even say the idea.
Yeah first, even though everyone knows it's and you're so right that so often a bad idea is actually the seed of a great one. It's just that you have to kind of put away all the take it apart and get rid of all the dust. And there's actually something really interesting there, Like there's an interesting perspective or a way of looking at it. What do you think, Cynthith for you, what's the biggest change you've made in your life that you think has had the biggest change
in your life? Like, is there a habit a practice. Obviously, running is a huge one that I think we discussed. Is there anything else a change that you've made internally in your belief system or externally or in your values that you think has been the catalyst for all of these mindset shifts and this greatness that has come your way? Like, does that come from having had a religious upbringing that
you've spiritual lies? Does it come you know? Because I'm always fascinated by like when you speak and when you put these ideas to me, I'm like, there's so much beauty, there's so much eloquence, and then there's elegance to it too, And then I'm like, well, where how did you know? Like, I'm like, I love I guess when you were saying, like, when you're looking at a role or a person, Actually you said a person, a real person, not a character.
You were saying, like, you love how they figure out how they walk and how they talk and why they do this. I think for me when I'm I'm fascinated by human behavior from the point of view of how can humans change? Right, I think that's what like I get obsessed about. I'm always like, well, when that person made that shift? What did they do that help them to make that shift? And how can other people benefit from that?
Yeah?
Or like, how does that person make decisions that makes them a better decision maker? Or why does that person lie or steal or cheat or whatever it may be that ruins their life. So I think, yeah, I'm just trying to get to what change did you have to make a change in mindset? Or do you think it was a snowball effect of just these positive exp speriances that you kept collecting.
I think it's like a slow and steady accumulation of trying, just trying things. When I was younger, i'd be I was a little scared when I when I first went to drama school. What actually happened was I met someone at a young Actors company. I told you the story before ray m N and she she told me I should go to drama school. But before that I had I had just gone out on a whim and decided I don't want to be at I can't go to university and study this subject. It's not it doesn't feel right.
It's sort of like listening to myself and being okay with that this might be a terrible mistake, but I'm not going to do this thing that I think everybody expected me to do. So I'm going to leave university. I'm going to just try this Young Actors Company. This course that's at a theater. It's not not that it's not a massive course that is around the world, like nobody really knows about it, but it just feels right. So I'm going to go there. I bump into Ray,
who I hadn't seen for five years. She tells me to go to drama school. I tell her, no, I say, I'm not doing it. There's no way I'm going to get in. She says, well, you can't come to this course if you don't apply to this wow school. And I say, all right, I will apply to this school, but only this school, just this one, only because you ask, and I'm only applying to this. Fine. I apply and I do the work. I don't phone it in. I really do work to get to these auditions, and somehow
I find myself in this drama school. What Academy of Dramatic Arts. It's one of the best schools in the world for acting. And I feel like a fish out of water. But a lot of my experience at this school is about what feels right for me, because that's really how I can gauge it. At one point and I was physical, I was working out a lot, and one of the teacher says, oh, you should stop work out because you get you know, you need to get softer, and I was like, I don't know that that's right.
I'm gonna I'm going to keep working out because it's good for my brain in my mind, so I'm going to keep doing that. And I find a person in my class who happens to just play the piano. He plays the piano beautifully. So we just pick up books from the library that are scores of music, and we go through these music scores. One of them happens to be Wicked, and we learn that score back to front. I have no idea that ten odd years later, Wow, that thing is going to be the thing I'm doing now,
no idea. I have no idea. I just love the music, and I know that going away to a music room with a piano with this person to sing all this music feels really good, feels good. We're doing these shows and we all are like trying to get our agents and whatnot, and I think, I don't think the traditional way of getting an agent is really going to work for me. So we put on a cabaret in the bar because it feels good. I get my agent and
I finish early. So when I go to do this thing we call it the Tree, which is like a presentation of different scenes. I just do the things that feel good and people love it, and I feel good when I'm done and there's no pressure, there's no anxiety, and I leave with a show to go to. And it's been a series of what's my gut in my heart telling me? The color purple came because I knew it was coming, and I was like, I know I'm supposed to play Sealy. I just know it. I can't
tell you why, but my gut is telling me. My heart is telling me that's what I'm supposed to do. No idea about what's happening next. We do this show in a little theater with two hundred people. It's a two hundred seater, that's it. Towards the end, they asked, so do you want to do you think you would want to do this on Broadway? I don't think they're being serious. Cut to a year or two later, we're on Broadway and we're doing this show. I have no
idea of any of this. I think it's just accumulation of genuinely listening to myself and not being afraid that the decision might.
Be wrong totally, you know, yes.
Because yes, some of it might be wrong, but then it somehow is right.
Yes, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, if you've just farked something in me that I think has some truth in it is the idea that if you listen to everyone else, chances are they might be wrong, right, and if you listen to yourself, chances are you might be right right. I know there might be some ways that it goes wrong, but when you're listening to yourself, you can take responsibility for when it doesn't work. You can pivot quicker or is that fine? When you listen to someone else and
it goes wrong, then you just keep blaming them. Oh yeah, I shouldn't have listened to that personally, And it's like, but no, like you don't need to listen to what they thought anyway. And so I love that, and I love all the dots and they all joint. Yeah, and that's the beauty of it, looking back on it. Yeah, there's that beautiful quote from Steve Jobs where he said, you can't connect the dots moving forward. You only can
when you're looking backwards. And I feel like when that's exactly what this is, you're like, I just did this because it felt good, and I did this, and now and I look back. And I encourage everyone to not look for the connection moving forward like you.
Will find it.
No connection, you'll find it later.
Just keep keep taking the steps forwards again, one step in front of the other. Just keep moving forward.
That's beautiful, Cynthia. On that note, I mean I could talk to you for hours, and I hope we will. But we end every episode of On Purpose with what we call there's two segments. Yes, one of them is called the Many Sides of Us, where we ask you to use one word or one phrase to describe yourself through different mirrors in different lenses, and the others are the Fast Five. So here are your questions. What is one word or phrase that someone would say about you meeting you for the first time.
I've been hearing she's very warm.
That's beautiful. I would have to agree, you're very warm today. I'm meeting you first, I me even though we've spoken before, and so I'm like very warm you. Actually, the last time I interviewed you is only audio, so it's always different when you finally and I was like, you have a way of speaking that people want to listen. That's what I noticed about you. I was like, I actually care about what she has to say because of your cadence, your tone, You're just yeah, the texture of your voice,
and I'm so intrigued. So that was something as well. That's special. Okay, what is one word or phrase to describe what someone would say that knows you very well.
I'm stubborn, Ah, stubborn about what I like to get things done on my own, and it's a trait that I am having to sort of like shift a little bit because there is that wonderful positive thing about I can get it done and I'm pragmatic and get things done. But there's also the other part of like it's okay, someone else can help you. You can help is good too.
Yeah, it took me. I know what that one feels like. I know, yeah, I can relate to that, all right, So it's not stubborn in the same way my wife has got it. Just clarifying, Okay, Question number three What is one word or phrase that you would use to describe yourself open, beautiful? What is a word or phrase that someone who maybe doesn't like you would say about you difficult?
I don't settle right.
I'm so glad you brought that up. Let's let's have it. So I get that feedback a lot, and it comes from my inner responsibility that I have this unique opportunity to serve the world in the way I want to, and I never thought it would be possible. I'm very grateful for it. But now I can't settle right, and I don't want to treat this as just a job or a career or It's so much more to me
than any of those things. Tell me about how you deal with that when you're seen as difficult in your way, in your specific experience of that word.
The way I've dealt with it has sort of shifted over time. Before I probably get defensive about it. It's in our nature to sort of like defend ourselves when we don't like the thing that we're hearing about ourselves. Now, I think I have more patience to sort of sit and be like the reason why you may think I am difficult or see that is because I'm maybe asking for things that feel like they're way it's just too much.
But actually I'm asking for the things that will allow me to be my optimum self for you, so that when we come away from this, you know I've given you everything I can possibly give you in the best possible way. It just takes patience and understanding for us to be able to meet in the middle.
That's beautiful. I love that great description. Okay, a question number five. Yeah, what is a word or phrase that you're trying to embody today, something that you're working on, something that you're still today.
I have this already, but I think it's an everyday voyage joy, just seeking joy in every day, like in little things, being able to finish organizing something, or I did my vanity were around my bathroom and I was like, it looks really tidy. That's a little piece of joy. Meeting people in the streets I run a little piece of joy. I found I don't know, a chocolate bar that I haven't had for ages. Joy. You know, I've managed to get everything ready and I got the right
outfit my waters. I'm prepared to date joy like finding pieces of joy in the little moments so that we aren't just waiting for big, massive things to happen, that it actually is an every day build up of goodness so that when the big things come, they're just like a cherry on top.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's beautiful. And I wanted to end with our final conversation around what we talked about briefly before we started, was that you were saying that you're at this point in life where you're trying to figure out the difference between speaking for from a place of love and then speaking from a place of fear. So often we're trying to speak from a place of love, but really we end up speaking from a place of
protecting ourselves. Yeah, and I wanted to hear how you felt today when you were sharing, like, how is that evolved for you? Because I think you're so right. I think, especially people in the public eye, are always speaking from a place of fear because everything you say is like can be taken apart and be highlighted, and can be blown up out of proportion. And so walk me through that for you.
I think that we've misconstrued what it means to speak from a place of love because we believe that speaking from a place of love is protecting someone's feelings. But by protecting someone's feelings protecting your own because you don't want that person's feeling to come back at you and make you feel hurt. But actually, if you speak from a place of love, you are actually communicating with another person about what can can help both of you meet
somewhere in the middle and understand one another. So if I say, let's say something as simple as someone has said something that's hurt your feelings, instead of saying that thing you said hurt my feelings and I know that that wasn't what you meant to do, but that's how I felt. That person can go I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to That's not what I meant at all. Now we've not exacerbated anything. I've just told you how I felt from a place of not afraid that you're
going to get defensive about what you said. It's not you said that thing and I don't think it was right and it was really mean different turn of phrase, isn't it. You're not speaking from a place of This is how it felt when it came to me. Is that what you meant? Now there's a space to have a conversation about well, actually, maybe this is what I meant, and now I understand Okay, well, now we can have
a discussion about something. When we speak from a place of love, what we're actually doing is giving the other person an opportunity to be understood, and therefore you get the chance to be understood as well. When we speak from a place of fear, we're trying to stop the other person from getting upset, to stop ourselves from feeling even more rejection or more upset. And we can't walk around like that, are essentially walking around like broken shells.
That doesn't work. We want to allow people to make themselves whole every time we have a conversation with them, to leave a conversation thinking, oh I learned something, I understand something, I know something. If you leave a conversation going did I actually get what I needed from that? And that's often how people leave conversations, especially arguments. You leave an argument you think, I don't think I got what I wanted from that. I don't think I got
the conversation I needed out of that. I'm still missing things. I'm still not understanding certain things. Because we weren't speaking from a place of how do we solve this, how do we make this better? We're just sort of I want to be heard. You want to be heard, as opposed to I want to understand you so that you can understand me. Now we walk away thinking, oh we got something.
Yeah.
And so usually by the end of those conversations, when you're like I want to understand you want to understand, You're like you're good. I'm good. Yeah, all right, should we start again again? That's that tends to be how those conversations end up.
Want those Yeah, yeah, I want those too. It makes so much sense. And today's Today's been a conversation filed with love, filled with joy. Feel does a lot of understanding. And I know anyone who listens to this speaking to you is like there's there's a there's a therapeutic nature
to it. It's very like, I feel like anyone who listens to this or watches this is going to walk away just feeling a sense of joy genuinely because I think the way you talk about your life, the way you talk about these miracles, the way you talk about the connection, the way you talk about the work, but also the wisdom that comes from it is really special, and so thank you so much. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for doing this. I hope you had fun. I did, and I hope you feel heard
and seen and understood. And I want to welcome everyone at home to make sure that you share what you learned from this episode across social media so that we can pick up What were those little moments that Cinthi mentioned that connected with you, that resonated with you, that you're going to try out that what are you going to start I'm fascinated by that. What are you going to start doing?
I like that question.
Yeah, and Sydnia, I hope you're going to come back a year after year. Yeah, I can't wait for Pinocchio. Very excited. Please, I love work it too. It's very excited. I cannot wait. I really pumped but excited for this.
Thank you, Thank you very much for having me.
Thank you, thank you. If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Charles Douhig on how to hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and the secret to making better decisions.
When people talk about procrastination, when we talk about overthinking, what they're really talking about is they're talking about the first step.
Once you take the first step, it's usually