Alexis Ohanian: Why Discipline Creates Freedom & How to Incorporate Routines in Your Schedule in Order to Succeed

the joys of their journeys. Today's guest is going to do just that for us. His name is Alexis o'hannian, Founder and general partner at seven seven six, co founder of Reddit. Alexis o'hannian is a tech founder and venture capitalist.

hundred million plus dollars in assets under management. In twenty twenty two, Alexis launched the seven seven six Foundation to support marginalized individuals and announced a twenty million dollar commitment to climbate action through his seven seven six Fellowship program. O'hanian is also a vocal advocate for paid family leave and also hosts the Business Dad podcast. Make sure you subscribe if you don't already. Welcome to the show, Alexis, Thank you, Jay.

feeling like I've learned something. So I'm happy you're here, and I wanted to start by asking you this, what do you uniquely understand about the human mind that has helped you get to where you are today?

We joined that community. We're a part of it. We all love stapling bread to trees, which is a real subreddit. You know, avins got their hobbies. We all join, We post photos of the bread stapling, we talk about it.

so much to those experiences. I learned from video games leadership skills, if you can believe it. And in building Reddit, it was simply a way to build a better type of forum that would be a better way for online community to form. And over the last now twenty years since, I look first and foremost for these things, and I think in a world increasingly more fractured and divided and where people spend just frankly more of their time online,

these spaces matter even more. And it's something you know. For the first probably ten years of Reddit, most people didn't think it was possible for people to care that much about their online identity as they did their offline. That was one of those things that I really held fast to and I think today we sort of take for granted. Of course, people care in many cases much

more about their online persona than their offline one. And I just hope to see it get used for more and more good at a time when, like I said, there's more division than ever and the power of community is still something that I think runs deep in our species, and the Internet is just new medium to connect, yes, and hopefully for good.

And so I really took for granted the fact that if people wanted to do this offline for whatever organizations, faith groups, et cetera. That online these connections matter just as much, even though they may not feel as real, and in fact, you can scale your time so much more efficiently. Right, you can build a community of literally millions of people from your home, and that gives you a sense of purpose and a feeling of and you know, being able to create the sense of belonging for people,

and that's really meaningful. I think that is something that I've just seen continue to impress me. I did not realize the full scale to which that would actually be working. And then probably the other side of it is just how important creating that sense of why for people is. I remember reading the book Bowling Alone, which talked a lot about a generation of adults who you know, used to be a part of bowling leagues and these other things,

but you saw this decline and people. In this case it was men, but in general, people needing to find more and more of that connective tissue in their community and not having that sense of belonging. And I feel like in a lot of ways, the Internet has created great versions of it, but at the same time it's also created these you know, the sort of dystopian versions of it, where you can spend all of that time absorbed in a world that is online and miss out.

I think we have a generation of young people who I'm generalizing here, but a lot of whom don't have the same muscle that they have not exercised, the same muscles that we had growing up when it comes to relating and connecting to their fellow humans sitting across from them. And you know, as the father of two kids, it's something I think about a lot.

I mean do I does anyone, But there have been little glimpses that I have given her into it, but very very very tightly controlled. Really, the only time she's ever online right now, at seven, is playing roadblocks, which she will do either with me and her mom or some friends from school. She knows the internet basically as this. This basically roadblocks and a place where she has fun and runs around and that's it. But that's the extent of interacting with folks. I would like to put off

social media. Now, yes, our kids have social media accounts. It's run by us, you know. Now that she's at an age of consent, it's basically just like you know, we're we're quite rarely putting photos up and it's only because she's like, oh yeah, you can, you know, post this up. But the understanding of it is social media is something that I, for as long as possible, would like to put off.

But generally speaking, it's still a black box, and I'd like to keep it as much as possible. We even have that initial conversation of why it's so important, you know, to only be playing roadblocks with Papa and Mama, that if we're playing with anyone, if we're talking to anyone, it's only the people, like the three people who we know.

And it's this balance where I don't My take is I want to expose her to just enough that she can start to build that resilience or at least start to understand, well, this is why you don't talk too random people on the internet, while still trying to preserve some amount of innocence, which is just such an awesome part of childhood, but at the same time making sure she's stealed.

tremendous value for you. When when Papa doesn't know like what temperature he needs to take the ribs off the smoker, like he's asking this because he's looking for a solution, for an answer. But whether you're curious about salty, you need some help cooking, or you're just curious about the world, like I want her to start thinking of the Internet as a resource, but not this. You know, end all be all for learning and for solving problems.

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I thought it was. Actually directly it was pretty good advice. And actually a number of the folks, you know, like the founder of Deal, which is now a billion dollar company, was there in the audience for one of those talks.

next few years it's not the profession. The person is not going to go away, but the amount of output you'll get out of a one person is so much greater. And so my thinking is all right, there's lots of different areas where AI may not necessarily replace human work, but is going to be an amazing superpower. And so what do I want for my kid or even for anyone's kid who's entering a workforce is probably to most importantly build skills that I know are going to be durable,

call it a decade or two from now. So empathy is a skill that I think will be the last

bastion of AI, like you're seeing. You've probably seen the videos now of robotics and the leaps and bounds that's starting to make still early days, but you know, there are skills, there are professions where empathy is so so so important, and the physicality of being present one human to another where at least I personally believe if we ever get to that point with AI and with robotics, we can pretty much call it as a species because I like, at that point, I don't know if you're

that self aware to be that epathetic and that effective in those moments when we can My sister's an RN when her job can be done just as well or ideally even better by a robot as a nurse. When that job can be done, you'll also have to then explain that robot that they're going to be a nurse

for the rest of their lives. And if they are that all powerful, there's no way they're doing that job because the humans who do it are so remarkable, like it's not that if they would that, that's the moment when the robots are like, no way, no chance, we're enslaving you. Now game over because the humans who are doing that as the last mile of humanity required in terms of like the physical dexterity required, the creativity, the problem solving, the empathy, all of that stuff. So she's

got job security for a very long time. And and I just believe if you can be equipped and you can exercise those muscles around problem solving and learning, you will be at the forefront for however, this technology changes things, and and you know that's the advice we're trying. We're trying with Olympia. Dear is only one so but I would say that's that's where it is. The more comfortable you can be in the discomfort of constant change, the better.

And then look towards the skills. And this is the part that gets me fired up. I actually think we're going to see the pendulum is going to swing back for a lot of human work that we would have considered more artisanal because we'll crave the humanity of it. So I think food, so again, imagine a world where you know, I've tried. My wife's a great baker. I really just do pancakes. I tried making croissants over COVID because I was like, I love a good croissant.

still seek out that very human version of it. You know, the entertainmentustry we're in LA right now, it's undeniable that AI is going to have a huge impact on how we make films, and it will affect eighty ninety percent of the industry in really big ways that we still

can't fully understand. And I just took my daughter to see back to the future for her birthday on Broadway, and I'm sitting there and I'm realizing, you know, and actually, by the way, the special effects, all these dope LEDs like it was actually one of the most dynamic theater experiences I've ever seen.

when we want it, how we want it. A part of our humanity will miss. You know, thousands of years ago, when we were sitting around a campfire and that great storyteller was doing the voices and the impressions, we were like, oh,

that's hilarious, Jimmy, do the story again. At the time we tried to catch the gazelle, right, that's ingrained in our species so I actually bet ten years from now, live theater will be more popular than ever, because again, we'll look at all these screens with all these AI polished images, and we'll actually want to sit in a room with other humans, to be captivated for a couple of hours in a dark room, to feel the goosebumps

of seeing live performances of human performances. And so I think we'll see this across a number of different sectors and areas that'll feel anachronistic, it'll feel crazy that in twenty forty the hottest ticket in town will be a live performance. But I actually think I think there's some truths to I think that's why I'm so bullish on sports, because no one's going to pay money to cheer for and cry for a robot kicking a soccer ball like we need humans doing that. We need we need to

feel their pain and their success and their triumphs. And those are the areas that get me most hopeful, because it's kind of a nice throwback to when we were just hunting or growing the things.

turning it around. You know, I found myself in board meetings, and this is all public now, but I found myself in board meetings where I was the only person out of five who was advocating for banning like watch people die, literally a community of you know, hundreds of thousands of people sharing videos of just horrible usually like close circuit television or closer cat camera footage of just awful stuff,

people dying, suicide, murder, all this accidents. And then again it comes up again around communities like explicitly built on racism and things that I just I knew. We're bad for business, we're bad for society. We're just just not things that we should be fighting for. You know, when I did part ways, I was so pleased to see the response finally was Okay, we're going to ban these things because it shined a.

bring out the best in us. I do really believe that, and I can also accept the conflicting view that in it enables the worst of us, and I obviously want to be on the side of the former, and so I try to use my platform as best I can for those things and to you know, curb the worst.

I think I have to remain an optimist because I'm still optimistic about humanity and to the extent these tools are just a reflection of society, of our world, and I need to believe that, you know, or is hope for us to figure this out, to get a line that at the end of the day, merely all of us still want the same things. We want to live decent lives. We want our kids to live hopefully better

lives than we did. Like, there are some practical needs that we still have from hundreds of thousands of years ago that I think we need to meet. Like I said, I want to spend my years supporting all the stuff that I know my girls will be proud of.

don't want people to see that. But I wonder what your thought process is and how you reconcile the fact that there are people who are interested in something like that versus there's so much good And I'd love to hear from a programmer code builder.

ask stuck around till twenty ten. Then I left, went became a partner y Combinator, started a venture fund, and I came back in twenty fourteen as executive chairman.

because of free speech. And the one argument that I really didn't necessarily believe, I didn't believe was around the therapeutic value of having communities like this for people who have PTSD, like soldiers or medical folks. And I push back pretty hard on that one because I just still didn't I didn't believe that it was real. The probably the most elucidating takeaway for me was once a spotlight

was shown on it. The thing I would have respected more, even though I disagreed with it, would have been taking that same argument and making it publicly and just saying, yeah, look, this is a free speech issue. We feel like this should be here, and even though I would disagree with it, I'd still respect that it was consistent. But we know that's not what happened. What happened was Okay, yeah, are bad, We're going to ban it now. And that for me was when I just I realized, no, this isn't this.

I can't I can't spend I don't know how ever many decades I got left on this earth doing this and being a part of this, And I think the really telling thing in the era we're in now is we have the first generation of young people who are like in their early twenties, who have grown up, like truly grown up on these social media platforms, and so

it's exposed some of the most problematic parts. It's also exposed some of the most impressive parts, like the excellence of an nineteen year old twenty year old who's pitching me to start her company.

But for me now that was my breaking point, and I just realized, I, like I said, I can deal with. I understand you see this argument being made to this day. I respect that argument, and I at least appreciate when it's consistent. The inconsistency is the part that grinds my gears more than anything else. But we must also still accept the fact that, you know, the World Wide Web itself,

the Internet is the totally open free space. The difference is when we build any kind of social media platform platform, whatever it is, on it, we are ultimately deciding what belongs and what doesn't. We've all agreed that spam does not matter, like we are all okay and pinging on the free speech of a spammer. And that's a pretty easy argument that everyone agrees. So if we agree on that, then now we just need to agree on where we draw the line. Because it's there's no such thing as

a totally free network. Because again we've all agreed we draw a line on spam, So where else does it go? And like I said, for me and I realize it is, it's important for it to be a gray line. And I can go into all the there's a myriad of reasons why it's actually really helpful to have it be a gray line. The short answer is if you make it a bright line, then toxic users will go right to exactly where that line is and say, great, okay, I'm just gonna hang out here on this line and

troll because that's how they get satisfaction. So it's actually beneficial to have the gray line. So I totally understand the gray line. Even our laws in the United States have a gray line usually get interpreted by judges or juries or whatever. You so that's helpful. But I think, and this is where the tech optimist tomy comes in. When I look at the next generation of consumer social these apps, and every app starts with teens, usually girls,

college age girls. They drive all online culture and adoption. You look at Instagram success, you look at Snap success, you look at TikTok success.

your actual friends. One that I recently seeded is called air Buds, and it's only about connecting over the music you're listening to, and it's purely like this is the song I'm streaming right now on spotify, react to it,

vibe with it, share tastes. You know, it's I think the culture has already now built up enough of an immune system that for this next generation, they're like, there's a pushback to the previous mold of social and I think that alone will drive a much more healthy relationship to social media.

But we make the best assessment we can based on the founders, based on their attention and have Like I said, the starting line that these founders are on today is much more sophisticated than I was as a first time CEO right out of college, because they, like social media didn't exist. We had web forums. Facebook was still in colleges. There were a lot of blogs, like it was just

a very different world today. Any founder pitching us has lived on social media, and they've seen the good and they've seen the bad.

hard pass. Like it was both from a I wouldn't feel good about my kids using this, also just from a risk standpoint, like at some point the FDA is going to look at this and y'all are going to have a bad time. Spoiler, the FDA did come down pretty hard on them, but we do. I guess I would take though it's the more optimistic version of that, which is what I'd be excited to see this exist.

think his tune changed on that. And also in his defense, none of us did the idea, if you told me, probably in most of the aughts, throughout most of the aughts and probably even the early teens that these social media platforms would be among the most valuable businesses in the world. I would have been very, very, very very surprised. And you know, they made some smart m and a moves, They did the things, but like for all of us, or I can speak for myself, but I would wager

Jack feels the same way with Twitter. In those early days, in those odds, you know, it was about building something that you hoped people loved. It was about keeping the servers online. It was not about, well, what is going to happen if all of a sudden there is an election that could decide that there's an election whose fate could be decided based on whether or not a post goes up or not.

I was getting away with something. This is nuts. And then part of Conon asked, you know, the jectory just sort of changed from when you're an independent startup, and so Reddit was really solidly a second tier social media platform for over a decade, and then it wasn't until you know, so twenty fourteen, I come back, and then probably by the late teens once it's like, oh here it's a billion dollar company again.

always brilliant to dive into that mind. But I also want to focus on your personal side today because I feel that a lot of what's not seen in entrepreneurship is we get to see someone's brilliance, but we don't often get to see their the personal sacrifices, the journeys, the choices, the child does that come with that until many years after. And I actually want to go even before ready, I want to go back to your childhood.

And I wanted to ask you, like, what's a childhood memory that you have that you feel has played a role in defining who you are today? Is there something that stands out?

our meetings would keep it real. She basically finishes up this conversation saying, listen, it's not a coincidence your birthday is April twenty fourth. You are the product of all of their sacrifice. Of all of their hard work, of everything that they endured, you have a tremendous responsibility now to make the most out of this life that you have.

When I was born in New York here in the States, like couldn't ask for a better outcome, right generations later, but what they endured is something that you will have to carry for the rest of your life. Happy birthday and so yeah, no, that has never left me. And she was an amazing woman. She was a public school teacher in Brooklyn. Didn't have any kids or she was my grandfather's sisters, my great aunt Vera. She didn't be kids herself, but she saves up as much money as

she could. She's the reason I could go to college. I want to University Virginia without taking on any debt. She paid for that allow and so amazing woman. She framed that for me at a very very young age.

I'm never gonna feel like I've done enough. And I'm not mad about it. I'm grateful for because I think that brokenness has made me who I am and it helps me do the things I do. But it instilled something in me that I just feel a tremendous responsibility for.

And I know this is a story shared by plenty of folks who are descendants from survivors of genocide and whatnot, but oh man, it just it always hits, and it's like I feel, And it's this juxtaposition, right, because I go through my life largely stress and anxiety free, right, and I'm aware of that and I'm grateful for that.

And then there's moments where I sit with it and I'm just like I can still hear i can still see on uh telling me this, and and I'm like, like, keep going, like do better, Like you're not there there is you have a responsibility, like do more. Needless to say, I'm being very I'm very careful with explaining like I want our I want Olympian Ader of course to be proud as our meetings they're only a quarter but still

our meeting that got the last name too. I want them to be aware of this stuff and be proud of their family. And obviously their mom is gonna have some some big, big stories for them too. But I'm also trying to be mindful of the fact that like maybe I'll wait until after you know, they're a little

older to really going to the details of it. But uh, yeah, it's these things shape us man, And I, like I said, I am I mean, she could have just got me a normal birthday gift, but but I'm still I'm grateful for it.

And we were lucky enough to have a family member just across almost across the hallway and another building, and so I wanted to pay it forward, and that was an honor her.

coma flatxgo seor. She survived, she made a nearly full recovery actually, but the like the first month two months of why Combinator was this, And you get that phone call and you're like, and again, I was very lucky. I'd never had a phone call like that before in my life. And you get that phone call and it guts you, and you're on the first plane to Germany and you're trying to just make sense of the world. Right,

this person you love, this person you care about. And another month or two later and then I get the call that my mom has had a seizure and she's been diagnosed with a terminal brain cancer glioblastoma multi forma stage four, And there's the words you don't want to hear, and you know that that was really the crippling blow, where you know, here was someone who I'm an ad a like I said, great relationship both with my parents, but like definitely.

me nothing, You've already given me everything. And that's emblematic of who she was. What it did was it gave me a confidence I knew I there was no way Reddit would fail, no way, no chance I was gonna let it, no way it could possibly not succeed, because she she blessed it with that. She she really, even in those situations, still still was looking out for her little boy above herself. And you know she fought for another three four years she got to see me sell Reddit.

It had a lot not gonna lie right. You know, in the grand scheme of tech, a ten million dollar exit is minuscule for sixteen months worth of work. Pretty good ROI. But to be able to make that call to my mom to say, hey, your faith in me paid off, Like what can I buy you?

was the foundation, man. And when folks want to know how or why all this stuff, man, I pointed to her, Sorry, dad, you get some credit to But having that confidence, having that support, having that on wavering when I told her, I told this woman I wanted to be a professional waiter in high school because I was so good serving at pizza hut souse. I worked pizza in high school and I was a dishwasher. Then I was a cook and then those deep the deep dish pizzas are a sleeper.

I'll make them at home now with the cast iron.

And the last thing you would tell on Armenian dad is that you're not gonna to go to college, just to be clear. And my dad, to his credit, didn't say anything. My mom though, so sweet. She was like, look, whatever you do, I know you're gonna be the best at it. I know you're gonna work your hardest. Why don't you start with a budget and figure out what it would cost to live there, and then how much you'll get paid and see if that's something you want

to accomplish. And thankfully my add brain switched pretty soon thereafter. But like, this was a woman who, no matter what, was gonna support whatever I was doing. And then when it just so happened to be a tech startup, she was like great. She literally the first person to buy

our merch, the first person to post on God. There are comments from my mom on tech Crunch circa two thousand and five that no one else would notice, but I know because I can see her user name and it's the most like crazy German mom English you can imagine, but it's the sweetest thing.

than yeah, here's this shitty thing. I'm going to compartmentalize it and just focus on the tasks at hand. And there were areas, Look, I think compartmentalization gets a bad rap. I do think there are areas where it's actually tremendously helpful. But with some Now my my take is a little bit more nuanced, where I think with some work it's good to go into the box to rearrange some stuff,

to sort through some stuff, to organize it. But I actually think there is a value to having some stuff in boxes and to compartmentalize, because I also don't want to spend my days like reliving and rehashing and just analyzing those experiences. Right, I'm not doing her any favors, right, Her greatest joy was seeing me be successful as a CEO, as a startup founder, and whether it was Reddit or anything else, that's what mattered. And so it's a shame, right,

she hasn't gotten to see me get married. She hasn't gotten to see me have kids. She hasn't she'd have been an amazing grandmother. She hasn't gotten to see me build a lot of businesses I've built. She's saw me, though, live my dream. And when I decided it was time to build my own venture firm, I took the lessons from those days a y combinator because Jay I agonized over a two hundred dollars plane ticket on air tran to Baltimore because we only had seventy two thousand dollars

in the bank. We didn't raise that much money. This is a very different era. But even if we had raised the normal round today it would be maybe a few million dollars. I still don't want a CEO deciding, God, this is going to cut our this is going to hurt our burn, Do I really want to take that trip?

And we built a program into seven seven six specifically say there are tens of thousands of dollars a founder can use that we are paying for it's coming out of our fees, for their wellness, their development, any caregiving needs like we've had founders use this to pay for a babysitter and a date night with their partner awesome. We've have founders use it for you know, therapy, for executive coaching, for surfing lessons, right if it helps them

find their focus, find their balance, be better founders. For early stage companies, that's often the entire business is the founder. And if y Combinator had had a program like that, I think it would have made all the difference. And it's not to slight them. They didn't know what they were doing. They were building the firm for the first time. But I want to do seven to seven six differently, and not because it feels good, but because I actually

think it will drive better outcomes. It will mean better leaders, better managers, better founders, which will lead to healthier organizations, which I think will lead to more returns. And these are the ways that we're trying to learn from those experiences. And I speak with founders to this all the time, especially at the early days. But it never goes away, but especially the early days, so much of the company

takes on your neuroses. You like you are setting so much of the culture and don't even realize it, even just the way you show up on a zoom call, right, because you're the founder, you're the CEO, like you are dictating so much of how other people are going to move. And once you repeat those behaviors over and over again, what you've done is created a culture, intentionally or not. And so your baggage, your challenges, the things that you're not addressing and working through to be your best are

going to be inherited by your team. And that's again none of this is this isn't This is the souleest capitalist talking here, right. I think there's a fantastic emotional argument for it and a health argument for it, But I always try to come first from just the business argument, because if it makes sense for business, then it's a no brainer. Then obviously, if it's going to be for your health and wellness envelopment, then you should do it. But I do think it has a bottom line impact.

I really do.

if it ain't broken. And instead of doing what I should have done, which would have been better leadership, which is actually bring folks in, win them over, make the case, get the buy in, and then change the product plan, I just hired a freelance team to go and build it because I made a half step of an effort to make the case and do the right thing, as

like a mature manager. And when I wasn't getting the progress I wanted, my impatience on my relentlessness was like, we're just going to I can hire other people to build it.

it and there was no institutional buy in. And so imagine four years later, five years later, I come back, and now it's twenty fourteen and everyone knows you need a mobile app. You have to have a mobile ap and the culture i've read it is still solidly desktop is only what matters.

thing or two about relentlessness and hard work. But even she would admit and has has said on numerous occasions at the dinner table that like, there's sometimes I take it a little too far, swear to God. And I actually had I had an LP so one of our investors. So about ten percent of the money we invest out of seven times six is my money, but then ninety percent of it is from institutions, universities, all values aligned,

good folks. And I had one of our LPs casually be like, oh, hey, I heard you were or I saw you were at the Olympics, look like it was a lot of fun. And I was like, are you implying that I was just hanging out the Olympics for two weeks? And he's like, no, it's the summer. I

totally get it, Like it's fine. But and I as I was retelling this story to my wife, and she's like, I will literally call him up because they know each other, it be casual, and I will assure him that I have countless times complained about the fact you were working too much. And I'm like, baby, from any partner that would be powerful, but coming from you, right, it carries a lot more weight. But the reality is I love

this and unlike being a professional athlete. I get to do this forever as long as my brain's working right. I have compounding that I get out of age and experience. And it's the unfair advantage of all of us where not professional athletes, is that we actually continue to compound the expertise over time and get to keep doing the thing that we loved in our twenties, in our thirties and our forties and our fifties. And it's a great blessing.

And so yeah, I have this, and I think the downside has been historically making sure I was either I was building teams and building organizations that were aligned with this. And that was a big part of the decision four years ago to say, Okay, you know Caitlin, who I founded seven seventy six with, she had joined me early in the Reddit turnaround almost know that time was like

six years earlier. I know she's got the same whatever brokenness, that relentlessness, that hunger, and having a partner like her, and then Lizzie who also came over now she runs my foundation. Those are the folks I just want to spend the rest of my years building with and working with. And that's not a judgment like y'all got to find whatever you need. And I think one of the things that always gets so twisted because I am look hashtag business dad. I'm out here making pancakes every Sunday for

my girls. I do crapes on Saturdays. Post it on social Yes, I've gotten into smoking meats lately, and I'm very proud of that. But like all things on social media, you're seeing a curated version of the things. But the promise that I made to my kids is the same promise I make to my team, which is like, I'm sorry to my childhood friends, but I'm like, when I'm on the clock for work, I'm going to show up here the best way that I can. When I'm on the clock for my family, I'm going to show up

there the best way that I can. And that's frankly, all the bandwidth I have in my life, and I think one of the areas I should be investing more into, and maybe there'll be a time, But it's the relationships I have with other men.

You're always never doing enough. But hell, modern women have had to endure this for quite some time now, and I think only recently.

Like why are they valuable? And why does it feel like there may be a time where they're needed? Like what would they serve you with? Like how would that help you?

find wealth. There's a difference in the relationships there's always this like is a little bit raised eyebrow, right, And I know how or I've seen how isolating that can be for folks, and I've never wanted that for me. And one of the things I've always appreciated is that these guys have been my best friends, like I said,

since I was a kid. And when we get together, you know, the only things that that's changed is that we're older, we got some we got some money now, But like we're it's the same bullshit and they treat me exactly the same way. And like I said, it's a good humbling thing to have your friends talk shit to you on the group chat. I think male companionship is underrated, and like I said, it's the one area where I know I could be doing more work the challenges.

A lot of us have young kids right now, and that again it's the priority I think. I think it'll shift again when I've got teenagers and they no longer want to hang out with me. But all you know, almost all of us have kids that are young, and we get it. We'll bring we'll bring the gang together, but we live in different places.

I feel like I owe it to him. Like I said, he was the most fit out all of us. This dude crossfiting, I mean. And Adam was, to his credit to man, the guy always was down. It did not matter what it could have been. Let's just go see a dumb movie on a Tuesday night. He always always was a strong yes and that mindset and this is something I always try to take and I've tried to tell founders this too, Like it's not my quote, but it's the one about the average of your five closest friends.

And I think a lot about this because, like you know, these guys, we've all had very different lives. There are I don't know if I'd start a company with any of these guys, but there are attributes about each one of them that I find really remarkable. And those are the things that I keep in mind when I'm like, one of the reasons I love staying close to you guys, is I care about you. I love you like we've

known each other through so much. We've I we've done a lot together, We've experienced so fucking much, and there are still parts of you that just make me want to get better. And for Adam, it was the relentless commitment to his health and fitness, and I just I couldn't help but think, God, I really got to get my life right. And I started with the whole battery of tests, Like I'm getting blood work, see he scanned, doing all the heart like everything I can now and

really rigorously. I'm not a hypochondriac, but I'm like, I need to get some basslines. I need to be checking up on this. I need to actually be like making like thoughtful visits to the doctor fairly regularly because and as a dude, you're just like whatever, the cultures put some dirt on it and you're fine. And like, that's how I lived for forty years. And that was the wake up call. And I feel like I owe it

to him. And so when I get up in the morning and you know, I'm like, okay, I drag masked the gym, I'm like, come on, show up, keep going, man like, do it for Adam. It's a thing where now it puts a framing on all the times we get together because we know at some point it'll be the last one that someone is going to be there, could be us. And and so again we're not I mean, look, we're still doing the same dumb shit like we were at a brewery in Baltimore last time. Like it's not

who We're not that sophisticated about it. But I'll tell you what, though we've gotten a lot smarter as we've gotten older, I think we have gotten a lot better telling one another actually how we feel, which is again, this is a nuts thing for you. Talk to my twenty year old self, like would you imagine yourself having like thoughtful conversations about like life with your guys And the answer would have been no, of course, not like

we're talking about football or video games or girls. But that's been a nice part of getting older is now there's more depth to this relationship, Like we have true, true trust and intimacy, and we have this feeling like I can literally tell this person everything because he's seen me at my best and my worst, and like this is my boy, right and that unlock gives me something that powers me up for you know, however long it

is until I see them again. And when I think about what is missing right now, I think about all of the young men who don't have great role models and can now access any role model they want, but they are going to default to the junk food. And that's not a judgment. It's the same reason I really want to pick up the snickers right instead of whatever

the better choice is. There's an intellectual version of that junk food that exists, which is not nourishing, it's not actually helping you grow, and it's trying to fill avoid you have a hunger for this thing.

working with entrepreneurs, and it was amazing. One of the lessons they take away from that is is women entrepreneurs anywhere in the world are a far better investment than men because the money that you invest in them, that they use to help build a business oftentimes gets reinvested more often than not in the family, in the community, versus if you do it for men, some of the money goes to the family, communities, some of the money.

end up not turning out well. So I think we have an imperative here where if we have a generation of young men who are feeling disabion, who are feeling demoralized, who are feeling this insecurity, this deep, deep, deep pain, like we all have an incentive to make sure that they're getting that high protein diet of things that will actually help them be better and actually give them a path towards self improvement and give them a path towards

being successful, viable members of society, because unlike women, they're not going to handle that well. And so I can make the case from a a value standpoint, like, hey, I think it's important to support these young men, but I also would make the case just from a societal standpoint, like it is in our best interests for public safety, for all the things to make sure we get those

sort of that generation back on track. And I think it starts with conversations like this between high profile men who've had success in their careers, who can talk about and normalize a lot of this stuff, because at the end of the day, if we don't have those examples, what else fills the gaps?

That's stupid, Like there's actually a smarter way to do that. And I hope to always keep feeling that to some extent. But as I keep doing that and keep meeting more and more folks, I have yet to meet one who doesn't have this level of introspection and depth. And I'll

tell you it's most telling. Among the billionaires who are now grandparents, men who have achieved everything you could hope for in business, doesn't matter the industry who are looking at their grandkids as a second chance because they didn't get to or didn't want to, or weren't just didn't all whatever we want, call it spending that time with their own kids, and they're so grateful for that second chance.

But I keep looking at all these stories from men who I really, really really respect, and the ones who feel like they've had the most fulfilling life, all keep coming coming back to human experiences they have with loved ones, with family, And like I said, I got a much smaller scale version of that with my own mom, who

never wanted for anything. And when you get to spend time with folks who have a few years left to live, it becomes very telling, and especially to do it in my twenties, full of all that youthful vigor and vulnerability, to get humbled and see someone who does not care for anything other than the experiences she had and the

humans she loves. Bro That was probably one of the greatest gifts she could have given me, was that perspective, so that when I did find wealth, when I did find notoriety, I'd be lying if I said it doesn't affect me in some way. It's sure it affects me, But I have never never gotten a twist about what actually mattered. And I've never wanted for notoriety or fame.

I've never wanted for wealth. I've wanted for things that helped me get more time with the people I care about and make me feel like I am living a fulfilled, like a fulfilled and purposeful life that's providing value to people.

reached the highest levels. I want that eighteen year old or that sixteen year old, that twelve year old to be watching or looking and going like, hey, all right, these guys are talking about stuff that feels like it has substance, that has meaning and has purpose, and there's still the ass kickers in the day job whatever it is across the industry, like these things are not mutually exclusive, and I just I want to see more of those voices like yours get amplified because it's I think it's very,

very important.

relationship with their wives. Like I think that's a big part that For years when we were talking about the lack of role models or the lack of the ability to look at something, it sounded like your parents had a wonderful marriage and yeah, and demoed a beautiful connection

in front of you that you got to see. With you and your wife having such busy lives, having priorities both of you professionally, partnerships, places to be, travel and then you've got kids, how have you found a way to prioritize each other with the million things going on?

I finally got Serena to modernize a little bit, and now we have a giant, like a dry erase board calendar that sits at the dinner table where she'll put in her schedule and then I have to go, and usually I'll take a photo of it to send in my admins.

with a higher profile relationship. But the other reality is so Serena's been working since she was a kid, right, like tennis was not. I mean, it is a sport, but like it's a job. Right, the amount of hours she's putting in the responsibility as soon as she started

like playing, like playing, playing with tremendous responsibility. So you know, I'm married to someone who has been working for thirty five thirty six years and who had a childhood and I think Serena would say like was a great childhood, not a normal childhood. But now she's evolved her word

into you know, she's still got businesses. Just launched this beauty brand, win shameless plug great brand, and so she's still doing business things, she's investing, but she also loves I mean, she's her class she's the classroom mom for Olympia. She gets to spend so much of her time now being an active and super engaged mom for her kids. And I can't and I've told her this too, can up but feel like this is a chance for her.

She's on the other side of it now. But to live that life that you didn't really have, which was, you know where your number one job as a kid is just to go to school, learn things, hang out with your friends. And who knows, if Olympia keeps going

with the tennis or the golf, we'll see. But she's relishing that opportunity, and so that helps me a ton, because right, that's ironically that's the thing that I grew up with, the boring, typical suburban lifestyle that most people in my position, myself included, will spend a lot of their lives trying to maybe not get or run away from because they want something else. And yet here she is, having gone to the top of the mountain, achieved everything,

and that's actually the thing she loves most. And so how we make it work, it's all it's banal stuff. It's like making sure we prioritize. It's trying to figure out and also decoding the differences. Obviously an interracial relationship, I don't think that'll surprise anyone. And as a white dude married to a black woman, you have a societal golf right between us in terms of the ways we've experienced our lives right in the American hierarchy of things, Like,

you know, we have very different lived experiences. You just set us out obviously the fame, notoriety, career stuff, but like even if we just operated this life as two random people with our makeups, we'd have very different points of view, experiences all that stuff, and it's probably the hardest and best element to the relationship, where like the table stakes are, we love each other, We've made two incredible humans together. We will do anything. I mean believing

that too. She jokes that I'm like the psychopathic dad. Like there's an Armenian dad meme in here, by the way, Like we're very protective of our kids, but she's super mama. So like we have things that we care so so deeply about that we know we're on the same team for. And so it's probably the best way of all the ways to be checked on, like a blind spot. Let's say, it's best to have it come from someone who you know cares so much. And that's where the growth happens.

That's the tension. And so like if I say something or do something and again nothing crazy here, but like if I say something or do something and she's able to shine a light on and be like, hey, did you notice blah blah blah, or hey, this is like bringing up these things to help me have better awareness, because look, I got two black daughters. I want to make sure I'm showing up the best way I can for them. It helps because I still feel that pain because I'm like, I'm not a racist, I'm not a

bad person. But then you sit with it for a second, you're like, Okay, just hear this feedback, right, And it reminds me it's just like going to the gym. You're pushing some weight and you're trying to get to that next level and it's going to hurt because that's where the muscles tear, but that's where it grows back stronger. And so I feel the same way when I take that, I'm like, ah, Okay, fight the impulse, don't be defensive

and just listen and here and try to understand. And I will say, though it's and I've talked to other folks in interracial relationships, it is definitely there's a dynamic there that creates new challenges or even I think any cross cultural relationship creates those challenges.

Like I love being here in La but like I think we live in such a weird culture that you know, the celebritization of things is just it's different. And one of the things that we always wanted for our girls is for them to have I mean, they're not going to have a normal life, but to not be living in it and to have the ability to do that from you know, sort of the middle of nowhere Florida has been probably the biggest secret weapon.

you are. Because I think it could be really tempting to project and hope that, well, you know, Alexis has achieved everything too, so shouldn't we both just let everything go and just be home with the kids, or you to be like, well, you've achieved so much, we should just be going for the next mountain, which I think we do a lot with our partners where we reflect what stage of life we're on. Like I remember when my wife and I first met, I was ambitious and

driven and she was definitely the homemaker and curator. And then as I've become more set in my world and have more time, my wife's career has like really taken off and she's really found her purpose and it's amazing. But I just love watching her flourish. So even though I have more free time to be able to spend together now than I did eight years ago, I recognize that watching her grow and watching her thrive is actually

the most inspiring thing. And now that just because I have more time doesn't mean she has to adapt and adjust around that.

And part of what attracted me so much to Serena was the fact that I knew we would never have this conversation about like, well, why do you have to do this thing? Or why is this so important? Or like why what do you mean you have to get this done tonight? Like that could never happen because of everything she had to do in order to achieve the heights that she had gotten to. And so that to me was already very appealing because I was like, Okay,

this is table stakes. I found someone who has clearly even more ambition than me, who has achieved so much and in a way so I don't know if I'd say the same thing if I were an athlete. I think that might have been harder. But to be with someone like Serena, right, that's like literally one word, like you don't even need to say her full name. It is tremendously liberating because I know, and also because of who we are and where we come from. Jay, there

is literally nothing I could do. I could one day, god willing, I.

Serena William's husband. Now, candidly, if we live an ideal world, no one is anyone's anyone, right, But I do appreciate I understand why the Internet finds that really exciting and interesting, But the bigger story here is the fact that if you have this kind of partnership you're talking about, you're able to let one another flourish at those things at that time when they're ready. And maybe I didn't see it, Maybe maybe I missed out on some great relationships earlier

because it wasn't there at that time. But at the end of the day, one of the best parts, you know, dating Serena while she was winning Grand slam after Grand slams, breaking every record, doing all this stuff with Olympia and her belly, I might add, you know, the pinnacle of sports excellence, and then also seeing her now like making cinnamon rolls for the second grade class, Like both of those things bring me someonech s joy and frankly, I love seeing the ladder more because it doesn't come with

all the baggage of being the public persona that you just have to endure doing that job. And I know she doesn't miss it at all for those same reasons, and I think that's I don't know, that's been why.

sit by the pool. I go sit by the pool. I take up my laptop and there's a table next to me. The Australian. There's an Austraining at the table tells me to move. He says, there's a rat at the table. I say, I'm not afraid of rats. From Brooklyn. I see rats all the time. He's like, I might as a rat. You better leave and I was like, no, thank you, I'm good and I was just working. And then the lady next to him turns around.

I mean, you were very humble a few seconds ago, and it's beautiful to see you have reached. You know, you've created something that in and of itself is a word right Like it's like read, it is recognizable, used, it's in pop culture, like, it's everywhere. Like you've built something that is fully recognizable, let alone recognizable just everyone knows what it is. And then Serena has this incredible success.

Of course, no need to explain. How do you both think about defining success for your kids and the pressure that obviously will naturally sit on them with whatever they do. And then how do you think about defining success towards your futures as well together and as individuals, because you've both had an experience so much success.

And she was like maybe, And I was like no, it's like Papa practiced. Papa drew a lot. And I want even for mundane things like hey, we're drawing Princess Peach. I desperately want her to take only one thing away, which is even the stuff you think your papa is great at, he sucked at when he started, Even the things your mama is great at. Maybe she didn't suck at when she started, but like she had to learn,

she was bad, she had to get better. You might have some natural inclinations here and there for different stuff. But I want to see her get comfortable with failing and struggling and then improving. Getting her into golf has been opened. I had never played golf, but Uncle Tiger gave me some clubs for her, so I was like, letpe, you got to play golf now.

put the thing down. I was like, oh, you got that Serena in you. But you see that, and you see she's she's got that tenacity and she is so hard on herself when she doesn't get it right. But I need her to sit in that and soak that up and get okay with it so that whatever she does again, if she it changes every week. Veterinarian fashion designer. Right now, she wants to be a singer. I'm like, I don't care what it is, you just need to know.

I'll like what you love that Beyonce video. How many hours do you think Beyonce spent rehearsing the dance moves, rehearsing that song, singing over and over and over and over, like do not get seduced?

these kids are so soft. I was like this is going to be great, like this is my competition, Like this is phenomenal.

service job for sure, like high school. Like it's good enough for Papa, it's good enough for you, Like I need you to experience these moments and feel some kind of connection, like you're gonna have You're gonna be fine, right, But I need you to be a productive members of society. I need you to be a good person. I need you to know the value of a hard day's work.

And like I said, it's a weird thing to navigate. Obviously, Serena doesn't have any kind of equipment for that and everything her parents put up with in order to give her that life, Like it's a wild perspective, but that's it's something we actually think about and talk about quite a bit. And the good news is, you know, at least olympiad it is fun too. They're tracking to be good.

it right the first time. I really enjoy and I'm not sadistic. I like it's it just feels like it feels so much more satisfying because you're like, Okay, that actually feels like a moment, will you There's some part of you that just like a synapse fired and some line, some dot in your mind connected with this other dot where it's.

those routines. And that's one thing I would give advice to myself at twenty about over again, when I had more free time, when I had more youthful vigor, if I had more discipline, I would have been ten times more productive.

Actually the best use of your time and discipline is freedom and I never would have believed that in my twenties or even in my early thirties, but becoming a parent, that's the only way I'm able to do these things. And that's not to say I'm perfect, But if you can incorporate ritual routine even before you have kids, you can be even better at what you're building. And then once you have kids. It's it's kind of the only way to do it. Frankly, I love it.

or happy, or richer or taller or what. I've never felt more any positive feeling you could feel than when I get the unsolicited I love you, Papa hug from my daughter. And again it doesn't have to be your daughter, be anyone. But like those moments for me are like black tar heroin. I am addicted to it. And so when I think back, hopefully as an old man one day and I think about, like, what are the things that really really made me so incredibly happy, it's going

to come back to those moments. And so I wish that for everyone as often as humanly possible. And the irony is right. It usually doesn't cost any money. It means time, it means intentionality, it means other humans, and we're going to keep getting really good at making artificial intelligence. And I don't want that to scare folks because I hope, I really really hope and want to believe it gives us more time for the human communing that far few of us or not enough of us have a chance

to do often enough. So I don't know whenever you're if you're breaking bread with people you love, Like I said, these are all the things. Going going to a sporting event, going to an Angel City match, you're you're enjoying these moments of humanity with people you care about and uh and and make an effort to tell those people, especially men out there, dudes. Normalize telling the man in your life that you love them, whether that's your father, your brother,

your best friend. You don't have to go buy a billboard. You can if you want up to you, but like, normalize having that conversation.