8 Steps for Overcoming Imposter Syndrome & How to Be a Continuous Learner

to talk more about social media and business. You're also going to hear my insights on when I feel anxiety and when I feel like an impostor. So to me, this is a really deep dive into my mindset from the perspective of an interviewee, and I think you're really going to enjoy this episode, especially if you've been listening along every Friday hearing my insights. So don't skip this one.

Don't miss this one. You're gonna love it. Thank you for lending me your ears, whether you're walking, running at the gym, walking your dog, cooking, whatever you're up to. Thank you for listening to On Purpose. When I finally got a job after rejections, and I met people and they were twenty one and I was twenty six. Now, by the time I stied my first job, I was twenty six years old. I realized that I had actually had the greatest advantage, which was I had massive self lands.

I knew what my strengths were, I knew what my weaknesses were, I knew what I had to offer, and I knew what I wanted to do. And I was just like, I just took the biggest risk, potentially one of the biggest career risks in life, by becoming a monk.

I should be scared of anything anywhere. Welcome to Impostors, the show where I have revealing conversations with world class execs, athletes, and entertainers about their personal challenges and how overcoming those challenges I shaped their careers and lives for the better. And I hope that it helps you along your personal journey. I'm your host, Alex Lieberman, co founder and executive chairman

of Morning Brew. Before we get started, make sure to subscribe and click the bell so you get notified every time Morning Brew drop new video. Let's dive in. My guest today is Jay Chetty. Jay is the host of the podcast On Purpose and the author of the New

York Times best selling book Think Like a Monk. For the past several years, Jay has been working hard to, as he puts it, make wisdom go viral, which he does by sharing insights with his millions of followers on Facebook and Instagram, and with his over seven billion views on YouTube. Jay's wisdom has been lauded by powerhouses like Oprah and Ellen, and has been named on Forbes's thirty Under thirty list. But Jay's Patt's success has been anything

but linear, as we'll discuss in our interview. In fact, to get to where he is today, Jay had to take some incredibly hard and unconventional career risks and overcome massive amounts of imposter syndrome. Jay Chetty, thank you so much for joining impostors. I want to say thank you to you. I mean, We've been working towards this for a long time, so I'm so grateful for all your love online. I love connecting with someone over Twitter. I

think that's what we connected over. Yea, we connect over Twitter at first, then a few times on Instagram, a few times over email. But it's just interesting the world we live in where I have so many friends that I've never actually met in life, but I feel a closeness to them in so many ways. Yeah, definitely, I feel that WM towards you too, and I'm glad that

we're finally meeting in person that thank you for the opportunity. Absolutely. So, I don't know how else to say it other than it feels like you've had seven careers in your life. It feels like you have just experienced so many different things, and people I think today know you as someone who's making wisdom go viral, as a podcast host, is someone who's written a book, does all these things, but You've had so many other experiences in your life that have

kind of informed where you are now. And so I would love for you to take me from the beginning. What was childhood like for a young Jay Chetty. So I did this interesting activity recently where I sat down and I realized I'd been working for around twenty years now, and how old are you? Thirty four okay, and so around twenty twenty two years, and I just I was like, Wow, that's that's an interesting number. And I sat down and I wrote down every job I'd ever have. I have

in my notes section on my phone. But I think I can say it from my memory, let me go through it. I don't know the number, but so it was newspaper boy, like paper delivery dude. Worked in a grocery store stacking shelves. Then worked in retail selling like women's clothes, denim, that kind of stuff. Then was a tutor. I coached students at college to make extra money in younger years in things like economics and psychology and philosophy and things like that. And then I lived as a

monk for three years. Then I worked as a digital strategy and innovation consultant at Accentia. Then I was a senior host and producer at Huffington Post. Then I started my entrepreneurial journey, which now has led to books, podcasting, media, everything else. So at least eight, which I think is such an important thing to call out because I think people will look at you today and be like, God, this guy he has it all. He's in his mid thirties,

super wise, he's built a massive audience. You know, he has all these different lines of business, Like clearly he has it all figured out. And I think just by you lying out these whatever it is, nine ten jobs that you've had, it has been anything but all in your path to get there. And I'm sure from your perspective it's like you don't have it all figure out at all. You're just working not at all, not at all end uh And yeah, it's just fun looking back

that way, yeah, and trying to piece it out. But sorry, I'll answer your question. I just thought that was interesting and I recommend everyone does that activity. I think we often also think about our careers is when I graduate from college and like, but that's that's not your career, Like your career starts whenever you choose for it to start. The question about my childhood or where the first job?

Again you your childhood, Yeah, I'd say that I was born and raised in a family where obedience discipline were top priority. Performing well at school was really in pordant to my parents, and so despite me going to a fairly rough school where education wasn't a priority of my peers,

my parents were emphasizing homework, after schoolwork, extracurriculus. I was being trained from the age of eight to get into a grammar school, which is a school you have to take an exam for that gives you a private level

education without having to pay for it. My parents didn't have the money to send me a private school, but they wanted me to work hard in order to do that, and so I felt like I lived a very disciplined life that obviously, when you're a kid, there's moments where you accepted normality and then there's times when you're like, oh, I just want to hang out. And now I look back and feel really grateful that my parents made me do that, because I think it gave me a certain

way of working that I wouldn't have developed otherwise. And I was pretty much a teacher's pet up until about age fourteen, and then age fourteen was when I went off the rails side through rebel, started getting involved in the wrong groups, wrong circles, getting involved in activities that I wouldn't recommend to anyone, everything from experimenting with drugs, through the violence, through to you know, just nefarious, stupid

activities and stuff that I think most kids do. But I think we just got into it really young, Like fourteen was a bit young for that. And then by the time I was eighteen, I was kind of done and I've kind of exhausted all of the craziness. And it was actually my dad who started handing me biographies and autobiographies. So my dad was worried that I didn't like reading, and so was my mom. I really hated reading fictions. I hated reading fictions, so I don't think

I read a book until I was fourteen. My dad started to give me biographies and autobiographies, and I read Malcolm X, I read Mike Luther King. I also read David Beckham and Dwaine the Rock Johnson because I was a big wrestling in soccer fan growing up, and so I was reading these really diverse biographies and autobiographies and I was thinking, Wow, these people have all done something

phenomenal with their life. And that's where I started to get fascinated by development and personal growth without knowing what that was. So two questions. One is when you were going through kind of this phase after fourteen, of being more rebellious, of just experimenting, what was it inside of you that was driving you to do this? And do you think at that point in your life you had

a sense of who you were, what you wanted to be. Yeah. Yeah, there was a certain self awareness at the time that I could hear as a little voice in my head of my heart that was like, you don't want to do that, You're not good at that, do this, and it was actually healthy. So my parents wanted me to do medicine or science or you know, law or engineering, and for me, those things scared me. I was like,

I'm not really interested in those things. And I could have that voice inside of me that was like, do art, do philosophy, do economics, do design? Like those are the things I gravitated towards. And it was almost like I started to listen to that voice and I started to not ignore that voice because it was so strong, and I almost had this rejection towards anything else that wasn't that. At the same time, I think there was a me being naive. There was a bit of wanting to fit in.

There was wanting validation, wanting to be cool, wanting to be liked, and then that part of me was seeking the wrong activities or the bad circles. So it's like this weird juxtaposition of your self awareness, which is guiding you in the right direction, but then your low self esteem, which is guiding you in the wrong direction. And so you've got these two things pulling on you and you obviously don't know this as a sixteen year old. I can only say this in hindsight, but at the time,

I just thought, yeah, I fit in here. I'm trying to look cool here. I think people will like me if I'm this way. And then it's like, but wait a minute. I don't want to be forced to do things I don't care about. So that's I was grappling

with that. Absolutely I'm interested. You know, as we move forward in your life, you ended up going to school to university thinking you were going to work in whether it's financial services or consulting, and then kind of by happenstance, you were introduced to the work of monks and ultimately decided, after you know, three summers visiting the ashram, to become

a monk for three years. How hard was that decision when you just had talked about during your rebellious years, at least a part of you was driven by kind of the need for validation. I would say it wasn't actially a popular decision to become a monk, Like, it wasn't something that was familiar to other people. So how were you able to kind of withstand called the pressure from others to do what was expected of you, Yeah,

I think we're always living two lives. One is the life you want and the other is the life you think others one you to live, and we get stuck in between those two lives, and often we feel like we're living too far off the edge of what other people want us to live, and often we feel like we're living too close to the version we want to live. And that dance is really fascinating as life goes on.

And what I found at the time was I was being drawn closer and closer and closer to my own values, and I was being drawn closer and closer and closer to what was important to me. So at that time, if you asked me what I thought I was going to be, I would have said something like, I'm going to be a rapper, right. I love spoken word, I love writing lyrics. I loved music. I played the drum kid, I played the piano growing up. I can't play anything anymore. And I was highly into music, and I was like,

I want a career in music. That's what I probably would have said. And then as time moved on, I would have moved away to being Okay, let's be more realistic. Jay, you can't do that. That's not real for an Indian kid growing up in London. Let's be more realistic. And I was like, well, maybe I want to be an art designer or an art manager at a magazine because I loved art, love design. And then it's like, oh no, no, Jay,

be more realistic. That's not really a career path because everyone and your everyone who you're surrounded by is doing far more serious and real careers than that. Okay, let's go and get a business degree. Right. It's like you literally go from this is the truth of what I want to let me water it down a bit, and

then to let me completely water it down. So I remember telling my art teacher, who I was really good friends with that at college, telling him I'm turning down my offers to go to like art school, which is what I thought I wanted to do, to go and do a management science degree, you know, at Cass Business School. And you know, he was joking around, it's like, you're such a sellout, Like I was like, I am, I'm a sellout. That's terrible. And that's kind of where round

it up. And it's really fascinating that I went there because I was like, this is the safe thing to do, and then I do the least safe thing in the world by becoming a monk. And so it's really fascinating how I went on that end of the spectrum and then I want to go back. So I think what happened is there's only so long you can stay away

from your true calling. And you can push it down, you can ignore it, you can suppress it as much as you like, but it's going to keep showing up in really uncomfortable ways, and it will start quiet, but it will get louder. And for me, it got really loud at twenty one when I thought to myself, which life do I want to live? Do I want to live a life of chasing success or do I want to live a life of service? And I would say that that decision at twenty one became easy because of

the three years of experience before. And I think people look at that it's like, that's a big change, But that big change was easy because there were lots of small experiences that led up to it. And so every summer, like you rightly said, I'd go to live with the monks, and that many experiment every summer made me confident that if I did this long term that I would enjoy it, and I think people think, oh, no, you just change your life. It's like, no, I didn't, so and you're right.

I'm glad you raised this because a lot of people say to me today, they're like, Jay, you really like use this monk thing as part of your story. And I'm like, trust me, becoming a monk is not a story. Like when you're twenty one, becoming a monk was the least cool thing I could possibly to my friends. And this is honest, Just my guy friends thought I was gay, Like literally, that's the response I got. That's how far behind things were, like you're gay, right, Like that's I'm like,

how is this? Like how is that even connected to? But that's what they thought. Girls didn't want to talk to me anymore because they thought they weren't allowed to talk to me. And what was happening in my path And then my family thought that I'd wasted my parents investment in me and my education. Yeah, and so everyone's saying,

you've committed career suicide. You're never going to get a job again, and you're ruining your parents' life, and it's just so interesting again just thinking about your own development and your own awareness that you were able to get to a place where despite all of that, you know people saying, oh, you must be gay, or you can't see women, Oh it's career suicide, that somehow you had gotten to this point in your life where you felt enough connection to your values or what you deem to

be your calling that you were willing to do that. Because I would say that is very difficult at any stage of life, but it's exceptionally difficult as a twenty one year old when there is so much social pressure. Yeah, and I give all the credit to my monk mentors and teachers and guides, because it's not I didn't have that resilience, but they'd given me an experience of something, and I believe that that experience was more powerful than my feelings or what I was hearing. And that's why

I think we try and make decisions in our head. Now, we try and figure everything out in our head, and we're like, if I can figure this out in my mind, then I'll figure out in life. And it's like, no,

go and have a real life experience. Go and do the thing for a short amount of time, and then you'll know what to do, And so I think you can only spend that much time in your head figuring out personality tests and conversations and questions and reflecting and introspecting, and after a while, she's got to go do the thing. And if I never went and spent those summers living as a monk, I would never have wanted to be one,

because I would know what it feels like. Totally interested for you to talk in a second about when you went to become a monk, the work you did, and how you knew that you enjoyed that work, because what I've even realized, right after selling a business in the last few years and thinking about what's next, I always will intellectualize. How do I know if I am enjoying the things that I'm doing? Do I love this work?

Am I passionate about it? And the issue is the more that I overthink am I passionate about this thing? The less I feel passionate about it because I'm intellectualizing the experience. So tell me, you know, what was it like to be on the ashram for three years? And how did you know at least some part of that work was truly what you're calling was, Yeah, so there's two parts to any work we do. There's the process

and there's the result. And loving the work you do means you love the process and you accept the result. Whereas the way we've been trained in modern society is all that matters is the result. If the result is good, then you must love your job. If you see someone win an oscar, they must love their job. If you see someone make lots of money and sell their company,

they must be happy. So we define someone's happiness based on how the result is, whereas all ancient wisdom would suggest is happiness is based on how much you enjoy the process. And the process is as enjoyable as you believe it's aligned with your values and what you care about. And so at the time, my goal of becoming a monk was simple. I wanted to learn to master my mind, my ego, my envy, my jealousy, my comparison, and my illusion. And I wanted to serve. I wanted to improve the

lives of other people. I wanted my life to make a difference in other people's lives. So I knew that as long as I was doing work in those two areas, no matter what activity you do you'd be happy. And I think that's another challenge we do. We get locked up in the activity. Do I like being an interviewer? Do I like being a writer? Do I like being a podcaster? And if you ask me, I'm like, I would use any tool possible to master my mind and improve the lives of other people. I'm not attached to

what medium or furum. I only use social media because it was the last option. It was the last thing I wanted to use, but there was no other option that I had because no one else would give me a chance. So I'm not attached the medium or the role. It's like, you're focused on what do you want to bring to the world and what intention are you bringing in? So to me, it's about figuring out what you're truly trying to create for yourself. And so during my time as a monk, I was waking up at four am.

We were meditating for four to eight hours a day. You're sleeping on the floor, you don't have a bed, All your possessions fit inside a gym locker and you do that every day. Do I enjoy that? No? Am I passionate about that? No? But I believe it's going to help me master my mind. Okay, I'm in I can do that. Right. Every day we were out in the sun. It's one hundred and ten fahrenheit, right, it's hot. You're out there laying bricks, out there doing agricultural work

on the farm. Do I enjoy that? No? Do I really love that? No? But do I believe that that it positively improves the lives of other people that we're serving? Yes, okay it fits. And so I enjoyed the process because I trust the process is giving me what I need. But I don't have to enjoy that direct activity, right,

because that's pleasure. Well, I feel like that's such an important nuance, right, because you talk about enjoying the process, and if someone here's what you're saying, like, No, I didn't enjoy laying bricks, I didn't enjoy agriculture, they'd be like, but isn't that the process? And I think the distinction you make is their activities that sit within this process.

It's not necessarily about enjoying those, It's about how do these serve ultimately what you're trying to accomplish, the values you're trying to live out correct and that, Yeah, I love that you're making that distinction, and maybe I can articulate it better. I didn't love the activity, but I loved what was happening to my intention while I did the activity. Yeah, and that's what you're falling in love with. And I get that that's a really like meta theorial idea.

But it's like you are looking at that going I do this because I know what's being built right now while I do this. That's loving the process. I think what Jay is saying here is so important. If you have a clear sense of your own values and you're able to see how the work that you do serves those values, it can feel easier to embrace this sometimes mundane or tedious or completely unenjoyable aspects of your job.

Sometimes taking a second to step back and remind yourself of your intentions and why you're doing the job that you're doing can have a really powerful effect on your willingness to push through the worst aspects of it. We're going to take a quick break here, but when we come back, Jay gets into why he decided to leave the ashram and how he navigated feeling behind professionally from his peers to ultimately finding success. This episode of Imposters

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Sakara delivers everything right to your door, ready to enjoy right now. Sakara is offering listeners twenty percent off their first order. Simply go to Sakara dot com slash imposters or enter code impostors on any checkout page that's Sakara s A k A r A dot com slash imposters. So let's talk about you spent three three years on the ashrum, you decided to ultimately leave. Why did you leave and what was the response when you left? Yeah, so lots of reasons why I left. I was really

experimenting with my health. I was experimenting with longer meditations, longer fasting. I was really pushing the limits of how far meditation could go to replace sleep, how far meditation could go to replace physical energy? And I really took my body to lens that broke my body practically, and that wasn't a fun feeling at all. Ended up in the hospital, you know. I talked about this in the book. Of Course. I was in bed for like fourteen hours a day for plenty of time. It was it was

really tough, and it was all my own doing. It was all my own experimentation. That was part of it. But really that was what was happening outside, yeah, And what was happening inside was as you are practicing being a monk, you get more self awareness and you get more introspection. And I started to realize that my desires were not aligned with the desires of long term monks.

So I would sit and talk to monks who'd been there for ten, twenty thirty years, and I'd listened to them and I'd be like, do I want to live like that? And the answer was no, what were their desires versus your? Their desires were complete surrender, complete service, no personal creativity or personal expression. And for me, I was like, but I want to share what I'm learning in this way and I can see the link between this scripture and this movie, and this song lyric reminds

me of this verse and the Vaders. Like to me, I was like, I'm a kid growing up in London who loves music, loves movies, loves life, and I'm seeing all the correlations and connections and I'm saying I want to make those connections for people because there maybe people can live these ideas in their life. And so I always had that where I wanted to make wisdom more practical, accessible and relevant because I saw its power and I

felt cool to do that. And it was as much a realization that I wanted to do that as I wasn't a monk. And that's hard because you know, you feel married for three years literally and then you feel like you're getting a divorce. And that's actually how it felt for me. I felt like I was divorcing the love of my life. It felt like a breakup. And it was really tough leaving because it almost felt like I went back to all that noise where everyone was right, you're not going to get a job, how are you

going to fit in? Now you've lost all your friends and now you've gone back to a world where your friends are like twenty five, twenty six years old. They're you know, in relationships, they're potentially buying their first home or like you know, moving into a fancy apartment, or they're now promoted to their next position. They're doing well for themselves and you're thinking, oh, I am behind. And so that's how I felt when I got back. I'm behind,

I'm lost. And I didn't think I made a bad decision. I just I was like, how do I catch up now? And so how did you catch up? How did you work yourself out of I would say a very rational thought of I've almost been stuck in time. Everything's accelerated. How do I accelerate? Yeah? I didn't know who the Prime Minister of England was. I didn't know who won the World Cup, like I didn't know. I had no idea, and so I was truly behind. I spent nine months

when I left. Well, the first month I was talking about the first month was my worst month, where all I did was each chocolate, listen to music, catch up on all the TV. I remember watching every episode of How I Met Your Mother. I went and found a list on IMDb called Movies to Watch Before You Die, and I watched every movie on that list, like I literally went into full like lazy, yeah, the pendulum, just say. I wasn't waking up early, none of that. And then

I was like, Okay, this is not sustainable. So for those that time, I started going. I started dressing up, going to my local library, turning up reading books. I was reading scriptural books, monk books again, and then reading business books to try and figure out what I had missed out on in life. I was dressing up as

if I was going to work. But if you asked me what helped me catch up, it was when I started working, when I finally got a job after forty rejections, When I finally got a job and I met people and they were twenty one and I was twenty six. Now, by the time I started my first job, I was twenty six years old, and I realized that I actually had the greatest advantage, which was I had mass of self awareness. I knew what my strengths were, I knew what my weaknesses were, I knew what I had to offer,

and I knew what I wanted to do. And I was just like, I just took the biggest risk potentially one of the biggest career risks in life by becoming a monk. I shouldn't be scared of anything anymore. Like that was the scariest decision that I made at a

time when things were more vulnerable. I shouldn't be scared of anything, and so I became fearless, and so that fearlessness led to me making big scary decisions in a big scary organization, which paid off because I now wasn't ready to follow what everyone else was being told to do. And everyone else who was twenty one who was still following the rules from college and university, they felt, or if we need to follow the rules, that's what we're

being told to do. And my thing was, well, no, I'm not going to follow that rule because I think I'll do a better job this way. And thankfully that

paid off. Now I had people in the company, senior people, some of them were my biggest champions, who I love and I'm so grateful to, and some of them were massively intimidated, even though they probably made twenty x what I made at the time, but they were intimidated, and they were trying to control and trying to manipulate, so it was tough living that, but I'm really grateful that

I did. And so, if I remember correctly, you were both working within Accenture, but then you were asked at some point to give a talk on mindfulness to a thousand people within the company. Then he started traveling around the company, right, Yeah, So this credit goes to a lady named Jilly Bryant. She's left Extension now, but she was the head of all the new Hires in London,

so about a thousand of us. And she noticed that on my fun fact about me, I'd said that I lived as a monk and I meditated and that I used to teach meditation and at the time Accenture was taking and they are taking mental health very seriously. And so she reached out to me and she said, Jay, we have this big event coming up Betwicken and Rugby Stadium. Would you mind talking about social media, which is what I was doing at work, and talk about mindfulness and

meditation on stage and potentially even leader meditation. Now, at the time, I had no brand, no social media, no one knew my name. I was asked to come on the stage in between Well Greenwood, who was a Rugby World Cup winner with the England national team and the CEO of the company in the UK. So I'm already having massive imposter syndrome because I'm going this guy won a World Cup for the country. This person's the CEO of the company, Like, what am I going to say?

And these are a thousand people who are my peers, who have no respect for me, and there's no authority here. And that is a beautiful position to be in because you start realizing that you're not living off of influence, so you're not living off of a position. You live off of who you are and how you hold yourself.

And so I went up on stage. I was nervous till the point I went on and I led a meditation, and the feedback I got was they'd never seen a group of a thousand people hold silence for that long. And it was a really like reassuring, comforting feeling like it wasn't like yes, we did it, it it was more like, Wow, this stuff works in the real world. People care, and so yes. Then I got invited across the company to teach mindfulness and meditation, set up mindfulness mondays, mindfulness meditations

before meetings. I got really involved in the I was so grateful to Accentia for championing a personal skill set in a big professional organization with five hundred thousand people. It's interesting because it sounds like something that helped your imposter syndrome in that moment was kind of the internal validation you had after you saw this entire group of

people sit in silence. You're told that this as long as they'd ever sat in silence, like it was reassuring to you that the work that you were doing could be really meaningful. I'm also sure that this wasn't the only time you've experienced imposter syndrome in your life, and given the name of the show, given so many people experiences,

I'm interested how you think about navigating imposter syndrome. And I'll even say, from my perspective right now, like I feel massive imposter syndrome hosting a podcast you as a guest, where I'm just like, how do I host a podcast talking about vulnerability and challenges in people's lives and being a sounding board for them when the seat The person in the seat across from me is someone who literally spent three years as a monk and has done so much more work to truly understand people how do I

do it? And so I can just imagine how many people experience in post SyncE room in their life. Well, first of all, that's very kind of you, and I don't think of it that way at all. I think every question you've asked me has been so heartfelt, has been so sincere, so genuine. You know everything that you've shared with me today, even before today, I already knew I was going to love you before today, like because all the interactions we had on Twitter and you you think, like,

how can you do that on Twitter? But you can when you're as genuine and sincere as you are. So I was excited to be here. I'm grateful to be here. Honestly, I would say that I don't think you ever stopped feeling imposter syndrome. If you're growing, if you're growing, if you'll learn learning, you will always feel imposter syndrome because what imposter syndrome really is is a sign that you still have a skill to learn or an experience to have.

So I still feel it on a daily, weekly, monthly, yearly basis, and I don't ever want to stop feeling it because it shows me that I need to grow. And I need to learn. I connected to a beautiful book called Flow, and Flow talks about how to experience a state of flow. Which musicians experience, which artists experience, which singers experience, is when your challenge meets your skills.

But what most of us experience on a daily basis is our challenge is above our skills, which means we get scared, we get threatened, we get confused, we feel lost. All what we experience is the opposite, where your skills are above your challenge. Then you foreboard, you feel tired, you're lethargic, you feel complacent. So really, what imposter syndrome is saying is that your skills are not as high as your challenge. But you can fill that gap if you truly deeply want to. You can make that leap

if you want to. And so, now when I feel a sense of imposter syndrome, I ask myself what skill is being highlighted to me that I don't have. It's not a feeling, it's not an emotion, it's a skill. Like I'll give an example. If I'm sitting around a table of people that I feel are more qualified than me in a certain area. Let's say I'm sitting with a group of people and they're all amazingly deep into

real estate, right, that's their thing. I'm going to feel like an impostive because I'm not that deep into real estate. And then I have to ask myself, so, what skill do I now have? Okay, real estate investing? Do I want that skill? Or am I happy being in this space? For example? And so the question isn't not only what skill don't you have? What do you want that skill? Because often you can get pursuing a skill just impress

people totally. And so I think that's what I would encourage people to do with imposter syndrome is take it away from this feeling of I'm not good enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not this enough. Yeah, you're not smart enough. Figure out what you need to get smart at, right, And that's how I see. I'm like, Okay, I'm I'm not qualified to this? Do I want to be qualified? Totally? I think in a lot of ways, what you're doing is you're putting control back in the hands of the

person yourselves, right. So it's all about reframing it as this is actually a great thing, because you're pushing yourself into an area of discomfort where you now have the choice. There's a gap between your skill and the challenge that you're facing, and you have that choice of if you want to close that gap, and by the way, you can make the choice not to close that gap if you don't want to do it exactly exactly. So, when I first started my career and I was mainly known

for creating video content which were like four minutes. We then built the podcast. I felt like an imposter when I launched the podcast. Now we've done the podcast for three years and it's very natural. And then and we launched the book, it was like that was scary, And then now we're doing a bookie and that doesn't feel scary. So every time you make a new leap, you'll feel imposter syndrome. But that's great because that means you're growing.

That means you're trying something new. I would never feel imposter syndrome if I never tried anything new, and that means I would live a boring same life and I don't want that. Yeah, thinking about your experience within Accenture, it feels like this combination of just amazing kind of harnessing of an opportunity you were given to use the experience you had in the Ashram to spread kind of what you learned throughout the company will also kind of

being on the forefront of social media. You know, while you say you were a little bit late to it because you didn't have a Facebook until whatever age, you still were early. Now, in retrospect within what's happened with social when you reflect on kind of almost like these two amazing kind of skills you were able to build up that informed where you are in your career now, how much do you think about your own experience as skill and hard work and grit and how much do

you think of it as luck? And how do you think about that relationship broadly in career? I would say that, and I'm going to be honest because I think that's the only way to do it. I would say that my greatest skill is knowing that I can learn something if I want to, and that if I apply myself to it and I really deeply care about it, that I will find a way to get really good at it.

And I don't think you can separate that from impact, because impact means there's a beautiful quote by Bruce Lee where he said that I'm not scared of the person that has practiced ten thousand kicks one time each. I'm scared of the person who's practiced one kick ten thousand times. And that's this which that we have to make, is that are we willing to practice this one kick, this one move ten thousand times, or whatever it may be,

And that, to me is the difference maker. So I would say that there's a lot of strategy because now it all makes sense, like social media, meditation, Oh that fits. It didn't make sense when I was collecting those skills, and so, as Steve Job says, you can only connect the dots looking backwards, you can't moving forwards. To me, when I was collecting it, I was just like, I love people and I love connecting with lots of people, so social media would be useful. Maybe that's literally all

I had is at all. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to learn this, then I'm going to learn this, and then we're gonna it wasn't that thought through. And at the same time, when I became a monk, it wasn't like, oh, one day I'm going to write a book about being It wasn't that it was Hey, I think this is what my calling is. So it was a naive, innocent following of what I'm being called to do at the time. Then matched with what do we do with this now that we have with as a

skill and taking a risk based on that. So I would say it's it's I don't know what you call that, whether it's discipline. Yeah, it feels like the combination of like intuition and action when the opportunity. That's better than what I was about to say, So I'd take that intuition action. Yeah, I just came up with this intuition accident. And I would add a massive sense of being open to risk again again and again, and and then I would say it's brilliant mentorship and guidance. So I give

all the credit to the people I met. If I didn't meet really critical people at different times and I didn't form a relationship with them and they didn't invest in me and I didn't invest in them, that was everything like for me, especially, so that you could say was luck. That was the luck. The luck was that these people came into my life and we clicked at really specific times, and that was the luck. Well, I

would say the skill there was. You know, my intuition is that when you were building these relationships, it wasn't doing so in a way where you were getting something out of it. You were getting into these relationships because you love the people that they were and you are to just be closer to them. I'm still friends with every one of those people, yeah, like deeply messages them all the time, and they're still involved in my life in so many ways, and I all the credit goes

to them. I'd say any careers socise, I'd give it to them because it's not that they told me what to do or how to do it, or invested money. It wasn't those kind of things. It was people who just change the way you thought by planting simple seeds and planting simple ideas at different times in my life. So yeah, I would say there's a mix of luck, strategy, intuition, action, But ultimately I think it comes down to three things. Passion, strengths,

and service. That's ultimately what it comes down to. It's the passion to learn anything and everything, developing an actual skill in the subject matter you want to do, and then wanting to serve through it, which is where the fulfillment comes from and so to me, I'd narrow it down to those three things. So something you talk about in your journey as being one of the more stressful points in your life is post accenture. You had decided that you wanted to kind of create these videos. You

ended up creating them. I believe in London at a time and day where there's no streets on the road. So it was perfect moment you try to pitch all these media executives, I'm being able to do it. Ultimately, you were given an opportunity with Huffington Post and the videos absolutely crushed it upon publishing. I think the first week, like the first video did a million views, then it was a million and twenty four hours. But then you talk about it a point in the journey of Huffington

Post where you were working there. It was growing great, but you were within four months of not having money to live. Talk about just that period in your life and how you worked through it. Yeah, and even getting everything you just described is just such a tough time because I was getting I got married, changed job three times, moved country all in the same year. And that was that year that you just described, And so that was

a fully intense year. What year was that? That was twenty sixteen, Yeah, twenty sixteen, And this time that you're talking about was coming up to twenty seventeen when my work at huffing a Post ended. Arianna Huffington had led to start Thrive Global, who's She's still a dear friend and mentor and wonderful human being, but my work there was ending. She'd left, she'd moved on. My position kind

of wasn't there anymore. And I was four months away from being broke and thirty days away from my visa to America being taken away because it was attached to my work visa, and so not only did I have to figure out how to sort my visa out, I had to figure out how to pay for more than renting groceries beyond four months. And I always used to have my mentor, Thomas Power, one of them, would always say to me, you only discover your potential when you're

in pain. He'd always keep repeating that, and I'd be like, nah, I'm proactive, like a you're whatever, Like I'm one of the hardest working people out whatever, And then I was put into pain, like that was real pain, And I thought Okay, I'm going to discover my potential in the pain. Okay,

I'm going to discover my potential in the pain. The next year, after learning that I only had four months left in the bank for rent and groceries, I got up and I emailed, DM tweeted, and messaged every person that I had ever met, and said, I will edit videos, I will record videos, I will film videos. I will do anything you possibly need me to do. At this time, me and Paul, who's sitting right there, we were doing corporate videos for other clients. Paul, do you remember that

office we went in? We did all these question videos, and so me and Paul went into this corporate company. I'm producing corporate training videos. That's not what I want to do. That's not my passion, that's not my life, but it was what I needed to do to survive. You didn't have an option. I didn't have an option. So that year, the year when I thought I was going to struggle to survive, I made more money in

that year then in my whole career. REA combined up until that point because I was so stressed that I wasn't going to be able to pay my bills. But that's because I was living under that pressure and that fear. It catapulted me and incentivized me to another level, and all of a sudden, I'd broken my own ceiling and I was like, oh, I had no idea what I was capable of until that happened. And so I just

kept stretching every single year. And so for the past five years, we've just been stretching the capacity every single year. And it blows my mind because I would never have believed any of it was possible. And it's only been possible because that pain forced me into an accelerated period that I never imagined I would have got into if I didn't end up in that pain. So one last question I have for you is how do you deal with the difficulties of having the brand that you have today?

And I mean that in two ways. In one way, when people say Jay has commercialized mindful mindfulness and is making a lot of money off of mindfulness, something that generally the focus is in our material things, And the second is for your own work, for your own self, how do you continue to have the mind that you want to have while working with let's say, platforms that

are built for serving external validation that is addictive. Yeah, so I can honestly say that my intention from the beginning has always been to purify myself and help serve the world. I've always wanted to solve the inner conflict and the inner pain and the inner challenges and then help other people do that. On that path, I realized that in order to scale, accelerate, and truly provide this message to as many people as possible for free, you had to figure out how that lived as a business.

Because what I do every day require is we have fifty people across the world doing different things right now, and I need each and every one of them to have the impact that we have. And without each and every one of those team members that play such an important and vital role, I wouldn't be able to do this. And what I got fascinated by is I grew up with the belief that money was the root of all evil. I grew up with that. I also grew up with the belief that people who had money did dodgy things

to get there. Because that's the environment and the family I grew up in. I had to rewire my whole relationship with money. And when I lived as a monk. We were trained to recognize that everything in the world was simply energy, and that energy can either be used

for good or used for bad. So all I can say is that I'm honestly trying to give the resources I have to be used to serve and support not only myself and my family, but to serve and support tens of people right now on my team that I believe are living their purpose and feel very purposeful and meaningful coming to the workplace. And then the millions and billions of people that are being impacted. And we've always made a commitment. If you look at our video content,

it's always been free. Our podcast has ads, but the podcast is free. We have and we're very selective over who we work with and who we partner with. And then you know my recent partnership with CARM where I've taken on the role of chief Purpose Officer. The annual subscription is like forty two dollars a year for the whole year. And so my goal has always been having lived as a monk where you do things for free

all the time. It's like my goal has always been that my goal was to accelerate the impact and give access and Ultimately, I'd say if anyone who does have that perception of what I'm doing, they're fully entitled to that. I'm so okay with that. I'll take it all day. I have nothing to eight on. I appreciate you for how you think about the world, and so I let people have their opinions and I have my intentions and I hold on to those. Second part of your question

was how do I do that for myself? I just got back from spending about two weeks in India, and I was back at the ushram that I lived at, and I go back there every single year. I didn't get to go back the two years of the pandemic, but every single years since I left, and now my wife and I go back every year and we'll be there for like two weeks to potentially a month, and

we'll just live like a monk again. And I love being back in that environment because they don't care what I'm doing, what's been achieved, what hasn't been done, what the numbers are. They just don't care. And so I'm constantly around people who demand more of me than what the world does. And so one of my teachers, I remember him saying to me he asked me for an update. So I was telling him what I was doing, and he said something that has always stayed with me, and

it really like it was. It hit me and it almost scared me because it was so much harder. He said, Jay, for all these things that you're doing, I have no expectations for this in your life, he said. My only expectation is that I simply demand the purity of your heart, because that's all I want. And that's why that's an travel that was among my my monk teaches her to me,

and that's way harder. Everything else is way easier. And so that's kind of what keeps me on track is I'm constantly surrounded by people who don't live in this environment, who don't value these things, who don't care about them, who who aren't who who loved me before during and will love me after, you know, and and even my wife. I think my wife gets a lot of credit for that. My wife doesn't care um, you know, she she's just that's not her life and it's not who she is.

And being married to someone that way. I used to be upset at my wife for not loving me for what I've achieved, and then I realized she actually loves me for who I am, and I felt really stupid, and I realized that that was so much more special to have someone who's been with me through being broke, through moving country, through having lost it all, to having it all, to being in between. And I'd take that history with any day over someone praising me for what

I've done. J Chatty, thank you so much for joining Imposters. This has been awesome. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful to you, and I really enjoyed my time with you. I'm excited to connect a lot more. Absolutely. Yeah, thanks so much, thank you, appreciate you, thank you. Thank you

guys so much for watching this episode. I hope you enjoyed and I'd love to hear from you sharing the comments, your favorite part of this episode and also what guests you would love to see on Imposters moving forward, And finally, like and subscribe so you get content from this show every single week. I'll see you guys next time.