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Oh hey, it's your neighbor's cat who hangs out by the mailboxes and who should definitely be inside. But it's also very convincing when she asked for belly rubs. Ali ward back with the most exciting episode of Ologi's ever made. If you ask my subconscious brain and my thirsty heart, which you didn't, and I don't care, but this episode is about procrastination. It's not possible for me to be more ready for it. But before we dive in, I'm going to take a minute to let you know there
are some live things happening soon. Thursday March I'll be at the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco. I'll be leading their Women in Science panel, and then the next night, March six, I'll be back in LA for the Natural History Museum's first Friday Series. I'll be leading two chats called Secrets from the Vaults. And then I'll be at south By Southwest EEDU in Austin giving a talk on March eleventh. So if you want tickets for
those links are in the show notes, come say hi. Also, thank you to everyone on Patreon who supports the show and sends in their questions. Thanks to everyone wearing gear from Ologiesmarch dot com their T shirts and sweatshirts and hats and socks. And thank you to everyone who has ever hit the five stars in iTunes or subscribed on all the platforms, and of course who leaves reviews for me to just cradle in my palmps like baby bird, and each week I read you a newly hatched one,
such as Casey Mullens thirteen says, absolutely love it. The journalist to me loves the little asides where you explained slash fact check something and everything else in me loves everything else just lovely. Well, I thank your love, Casey mull, and so deal with that. Okay, forcrastnology to get into it. Okay, procrastnology not a real word in the academic sense, bummer, But procrastination has such a beautiful backstory. So pro means
forward and crastiness means till next day. So to procrastinate in Latin means to forward things until tomorrow. Ugh, it's like doing a chef's kiss while you're getting gut punched. Gorgeous. So volitional psychology comes from volition, which means intentional behavior, and that comes from the Latin meaning to wish. So this was a topic I could not explore soon enough. As a people pleasing human with a brain full of bees, I have the dirty secret of being a chronic procrastinator.
Like the higher the stakes on something, the more terrified I am of starting it. If there are official government forms, I can't even look at them. I can't look at them until the day they're doing like big writing projects. I would rather clean a litter box belonging to an elderly tiger. Once while procrastinating. I googled procrastination, and then I found out about a conference in Chicago run by the topic's most prominent research psychologist and a professor of
general and community psychology at Chicago's De Paul University. This ologist got his bachelor's in psychology, two masters in experimental and general psychology, a PhD in psychology. His list of published papers on the topic of procrastination is exhaustive. It is exhausting to fathom. This is the dude when it comes to the science of procrastination. So I reached out.
He said, yes, he would be interviewed, but if I made light of the suffering felt by chronic procrastinators, he would pull an atom driver on fresh air and he would walk right at a studio. And I assured him I had the utmost com passion and also the ulterior motive of wanting to fix my own life. And he said, oh, okay, great then, and so we met up in a community radio station in a Chicago suburb. Shout out to Elise
of ice Cream Media in Lyle. He was neatly dressed in a cashmere sweater and has a distinguished mustache, kind of like you would expect to find on a fire chief.
Now time was ticking.
We spoke as fast as we could and answered as many questions as we could possibly fit into this window. I had bought his book So Procrastinating, The No Regrets Guide to Getting It Done, which explains that everyone procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.
So who does what?
And I prepared a list of questions that was mostly just an airplane napkin scrawled with the words why and housetop? So we address both. So let's get this episode in your brains, because no matter what your relationship to procrastination, this episode will change the way you look at yourself and your to do list. So, without further ado, absorb the wit and the wisdom of author, scientist, psychologist, and procrastination research legend volitional psychologist, the doctor Joseph R. Ferrari.
Ferrari is f E r r r I like the car.
We must you must have said that so many times in your life.
Many times. But you know what means smith? Does it really means to blacksmith? The iron maker? Pharaoh's is Latin from oh there you go, I'm sorry, So Ferrari Ferra, Ferra means smith. It's like Smith's might. It's nothing exotic.
Okay, So you know Ferrari's rearing horse logo. I always thought that meant look how fast our cars go, like a really fast horse. But the and I was like, oh, maybe it's like a farrier, like a blacksmith that does horseshoes. And I just looked it up and Enzo Ferrari just borrowed the image of the prancing horse from a World War Two fighter pilot's plane for good luck. Oh my god, let's get back to procrastination. I'm so sorry. So who procrastinates? What's the deal?
So they will not listen to anything that I say as tool? How to treat it? Yes, because there's always your reason. These aren't stupid people, they're very smart.
So Doc, you can move us away. Yeah you can be that.
I mean know when we're ready the starter you've started already?
Oh yeah, we're already recording, Doctor Joseph Ferrari.
Yes, you're a psychologist, I am. Is there a particular field of psychology that deals with procrastinations?
I am trained as a social personality psychologist. That means a research psychologist. There are also clinical psychologists and counseling psychologists that have dealt with this topic of procrastination. But we're getting a little ahead if I may. Yeah, okay, because everybody procrastinates, but not everyone's a procrastinator.
I was going to ask if you have that tattooed anywhere on your line.
No, that's my quote, and people have stolen and is that right? What does that mean? How can you be because what the data shows is that twenty percent of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. What does that mean? They do it at home, they do it at schools, they do it work relationships. You know, they're going to show up late for events. They're not going to RSVP on time. They're never going to get that concert ticket because they never went were sporting tickets because they never
went around to get the purchase the ticket. They missed doctor's appointments, They wait till the gauge goes on E before they get more gas, They wait for the third bill. Twenty percent. Now you might say that's all I know people that are higher. But that's higher than depression, higher than phobia, higher than alcoholism, higher than panic attacks, than substance abuse. And yet this is considered a funny topic. Yet this is considered procrastination is considered a non serious disorder.
Have had people get angry at me when they say, oh, you know during I think May is mental health month, and I say yes, and make sure we've put in procrastination. Now, you're trivializing our other illnesses. No, this is more common than many of those other issues, and yet people consider this a frivolous topic. Twenty percent of adult.
Okay, now we're getting right into it. So doctor Ferrari says, according to his studies, and there are many that figured tracks across all genders and nations, twenty percent of folks are chronic procrastinators. And if you're listening to this, you either are one you know one. Maybe someone sent you a link to this episode because working up to the
last minute isn't cute anymore. Now, college students, seventy to seventy five percent of you procrastinate on assignments, but you do it less as you get older, which brings us back to doctor Ferrari's motto.
Everybody procrastinates, but not everyone's a procrastinator. So everybody might put off for a task. The college student might delay reading, studying, registering for a class seeing the mentor. But if Izzo is that Lizzo Liz, If Lizzo gives a free concert to the first fifty people, they're there. If there's a kega beer for free in the dorm they're there, well, then then not procrastinators. They procrastinate, but they're not procrastinators.
So it's very important to the listeners, to people that do the research that know that there's a difference between academic procrastination and global everyday procrastination or what I call chronic procrastination. There are two different animals. Every two years as an International meeting on the Study of procrastination. It was just held this past summer in Sheffield, England. In
twenty twenty seventeen, I hosted it here in Chicago. That was the tenth biennial, So for twenty years, over twenty years, scholars have been getting together. What's interesting is that I'm pretty much the only US person. A lot in Canada, a lot in Europe. Now, it's growing in Asia in other areas, but in the US this topic is not
considered a serious scientific topic. Why, I don't know. And every time we do these meetings we seem to go back because there's always new people coming to these meetings. To the notion of what's the difference between pondering and waiting and delay and dwelling and postponing and procrastination, pausing waiting being dontal I can't say the way doddling, that's the word pausing waiting. I want you to cut that out.
He was kidding. I would not do him dirty like that anyway.
Pausing waiting are all forms of delaying, but they're not the same as procrastinating. The continuum goes worse. The question is what's the tipping point. We don't know, but we should not consider delaying itself is the same. It's not that these people are lazy. Chronic procrastinators are very hard working. That's something else. That's something they shouldn't be doing, all right. They're postponing what they're doing supposed to do for something else,
and they've got good reasons. They'll tell you this and that. No, no, no, they're very smart to keep coming up with plausible, believable reasons, and so you listen to them and you go, oh, oh, okay, that's why you can't do it now, And then next time, oh, that's why oh, it's never taking ownership.
And as someone who struggles with this, I can say each of these excuses feels very real to the procrastinator. So it's not that we're lying to you, it's just that we're lying to ourselves.
Perhaps.
And doctor Ferre says that there's a tipping point between pondering and delaying and true chronic procrastination. That tipping point I find is usually my face tipping into a keyboard at four am the night before something is due.
Pondering is a more cognitive variable or something about thinking. And so indecision, being indecisive is what we call in the field decisional procrastination. So I break them out of sort of. And again there's a difference. What do you do if you have a person who's indecisive, Well, first thing they do, and I know you want to talk about treatment leader is you don't take them a place to a place where they have lots of options.
He has a nightmare.
Yes, out here in the western suburbs of Chicago, there's a movie theater in Aurora that has thirty one movies. You don't take the indecisive to thirty one movies? Why? Because you stand there and you say, so what do you want to see? And what will they say?
I don't know, what do you want to say?
Well? I know, but what do you want to What do they say?
Whatever?
Okay, and you look at your watch at seven o'clock and they're all starting at seven fifteen. We really got to decide what do you want to see? What do they say? They have you pick and then they don't want brilliant Yeah, people, So they make you choose, you see, And so it's never their fault.
Am I going to no, no, no, I'm just making sure we're recording this because it's my favorite episodever.
Okay, yeah, it's absolutely So if I never choose, it's never my fault. You don't want to make a decision, that's okay, your choice, you have that right. But then, as we say in New York, shut up. Okay, if you let me make the choice, you got to live with that. You see. So again, going back to the movie metaphor, so they see the movie. If the movie is good, we leave, We say that was great, I was wonderful. I suppose it's a dud, a stinker, a horrible movie. What do they say at the end, you
want to know how to treat it. You don't bring the indecisive a place where they have so many options because they can't handle it all right. And again they're not bad people. It's just that it's difficult.
It is so hard. What if you do it wrong?
So life is full of Look when God made us, she gave us.
Knees, she.
Gave us knees to bend. We're gonna fall. The question in life isn't why are you going to fail? The question is when will you fail? You see people think I don't want to fail. I can't make mistakes. No no, no, no, no no, you will make mistakes in life. Life is full of failure. The question is those knees get you down, but those knees get you up. That's the question. How do you get back up like the phoenix? How do you rise out of the ashes of the failure? So
you're going to fail in life? Yes, life is full of failure. The questions did you learn? Did you grow? Did you move on beyond the failure? And that's what people need to understand. Clinical psychologists say eighty percent is great, not one hundred percent. People want to be perfect and if I'm not perfect. I'm garbage.
Yet, No, you're.
Human and no one's there. You're human, and that means you're going to make mistakes, all right. So the clinician says, if you can reach eighty percent of your goal, eighty percent of what is out there, you're a success. Now. A recent study found actually supported this that happiness. You're most content, you're most healthy with eighty five percent success and fifteen percent failure. Really, yes, not this one hundred percent.
We need failure in life now, but some failure makes us most adjusted.
Don't let beance for you. When it comes to being flawless, it's never gonna happen. That's a good thing. Salvador Dali once famously said, have no fear of perfection. You'll never reach it. So lowering the expectations for yourself is just like undoing the top button of your pants at Thanksgiving, But for your soul it feels so good and probably no one will notice the difference. You're talking about chronic procrastinators, yes, which is enough about me.
Let's talk a little bit about you.
So now, chronic progression, No, I know, how so how did you get into this field?
I can only really get it's Valentine's Day. So I'll give you the reason, not the private reason. Oh okay, I know everybody wants to privatey is Ventisia. My wife will be angry.
Oh I think I just understood exactly what the problem is.
Okay, but I.
Didn't outer Okay, Well, sure, I'll give you the history.
Okay.
I think it's nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight. I'm in my doctoral program at Adelphi University in Garden City, Long Island, because I know you go national. So yeah, I'm int my doctoral program and I'm taking a class and this is the eighties before computers, taking a class on self defeating behavior. The instructor was a social psychologist retooling to become a clinician. So she was very interested in understanding choosing to suffer people. There's a religious show that people
will shock themselves. They think I deserve to be this masochism, sado massacim. She wasn't all that stuff. And one of the topics was self handicapping. When will people sabot their behavior? So we're in this class she's covering small seminar. I raise my hand and I say, excuse me, but this sounds like it could be procrastination, and she says, well, yeah, sure, I said, okay, I raised my hand again. Okay, Well what is the research show? She says. I don't know,
but I'm sure someone's done the study. Again, this is the eighties. So what do I do. I open my notebook and I write the word procrastination, and after class I go to the library because this is what people used to do, all right, And I go look it up and I find practically nothing on the topic of procrastination. Now nothing about two hundred conferences and papers, but a lot of us on writer's block, career in decision. But from a social personality psychology point of view, I try
and understand what are the causes, what are the consequences? Nothing. So in graduate school we heard a scratchuate students. You could either do research, and this is good for your listeners to hear, particularly those who may be studying something. You could do something that everybody else does, and you'll be a body of literature and you follow along the way. You can go off into something that no one else has done, and then you carve the path and your name becomes synonymous.
Now I'm a little and here, doctor Ferrari mouth's the word public.
And I like that idea. So in the beginning, everything I published I wrote on procrastination was publishable, so much so that I remember one journal they came back and said that, well accepted, but you have to change the introduction where you talk about the literature because you just keep citing Ferrari A. Well, that's because I'm the only person.
So yes. Doctor Ferrari is one of the leading experts in this, having been an author of the Seminole nineteen ninety five textbook Procrastination and Task Avoidance Theory, Research and Treatment, and his less academic and more Hey I'm screwing up my life with this and want to understand it, fix it book Still Procrastinating, the No Regrets Guide to Getting it Done Now. The threateningly inquisitive still Procrastinating came about because of the horsepucky he often sees on the topic.
So the title is called still Procrastity because I got tired of so many people following this time management myth. Yeah that it was, and these techniques that just warned science based. So it really wasn't hard for me to write because I knew the literature. You know, some people say it takes a long time to write. Now, I sat there in a couple of months. But room, I mean we edited it, tweaked at the and all that. But to typing it up was was I just knew
what to say. Yeah, and then I looked for interventions because I really am more interested in the causes and the consequences. But everybody wants the cures fixed me. So you decided to write this book. So I wrote this book and came out in twenty ten because I got tired of all the other stuff that was out there that really was not based on the sidelients, based on what people were saying.
He mentioned some well worn advice about eating raw frogs first thing in the morning, and this is metaphorical, it's not a Silicon Valley biohack. But I've had some luck with time blocking, which is giving myself specific times to do certain tasks. But Ferrari says these tactics don't always get to the heart of the problem.
If you have a list of things to do, put them in order, and you know I grew up, that's called prioritizing. That ain't procrastination. Clearly, if I have a dozen things to do ten eleven, and twelve. Gotta wait, want I do that? All right? So I'm working on that. But that's not procrastinating. The true procrastinator has that list of twelve and then maybe does one, maybe does two, then rewrites the list, makes a copy of the list, shuffle things around. Oh no, am I right?
Oh?
Why are you seeing in my soul?
No? And I'm just saying that so structured or another person talks about active procrastination. Now, listen to those words active procrastination. How can I actively not do something? Inertia is inertia?
Doctor Ferra says he hates to see people taking advantage of the agony procrastinators feel and offering them non effective or non scientific solutions. I mean, can you blame him? This man has spent his adult life hunkered over data sets, doing serious science on the topic.
But there are a lot of people out there that you know, are trying to cash in on a real problem. Seriously, that's a problem for people in their life.
Oh, it's the worst problem in my life.
Yes, And I am a.
Super high achiever, great grades, super perfectionist. Everyone always commends how hard I work, And it's this shameful secret that I that I take the most important things, and I do them last, because failing at them it would be terrible.
Is devastating.
So fear of failure it's clearly a major motor. But even fear of success can cause people to procrastinate because if I succeed, what happened.
Oh, then it's just more work.
So I'm the lawyer who never finishes the brief on time, so they don't get the firm doesn't give me an additional stuff to do. I am not finishing the reports on hither because prox Now it is kidding.
What did he call them?
Us?
And so okay, proc I call them PROCs short because again I'm from New York and everything's gotta be fast across the nation. Talks takes too long, so call them PROCs. PROCs think the world is about themselves. I don't like it. I can't do it. I don't want to fail, I don't look good.
Well.
World is not about me. Life is about wi. If I don't do my task on time, then you can't do your task on time, which doesn't let the next person do. So life is not about me. Life is about we. We live in unity, common unity, community.
And sometimes we're so afraid of letting the community down. That we let the community down.
Sorry, I didn't mean to do it.
What are the mechanisms underlying that? And I know that this is a whole book's worth. But if someone is social esteem protection, okay, what does that mean?
You know what self esteem is. That's how I feel about myself. PROCs are very concerned about what other people think of them, hence social esteem. I want you to like me. I don't want to fail. I don't want to do poorly. I want you to really like me. See, but if I never finish, you will then say I lack effort, not lack ability.
Yeah, wow, that hurts.
Lacking ability is much more stable, much more. It doesn't matter how much effort. It's much more consistent. Lacking effort means maybe I could do it. I just didn't have enough time. This would be much better. If I had more time, I could really show you. Then, See, it's not my fault. It's time got away from me. I don't do nothing. Times are constant, which is why you can't manage time time manager? Can I go there?
Yes?
I know that time management is a myth, is a myth, and I have tried that so many times like what do you feel? How do you feel about Like the Pomodoro method, and the Pomadora method is the kitchen timer twenty five minutes on, fifty five minutes off, you know, not.
The fruit that you eat, no pomegranate, don't get.
It, no, no, but it comes from Italian for pomodoro because the guy who invented it had a had a kitchen timer to look like a tomato. Yeah, so you set an egg timer for twenty five minutes you work, and then five minutes off, like or bullet journaling.
For the eighty percent where it's time management problem they procrastinating, these things will work. They talk about the five minute plan that you can break things down. Yeah.
Absolutely, the five minute planned by the bye I just look this up. Is where you take a dreaded task, a loathesome assignment, and you tell yourself you will do it for five minutes and then you're out of there. And usually in that five minutes you're like, oh, okay, this isn't like hell on Earth, because we tend to anticipate a task being so much worse than it actually is. So no harm trying that tactic.
But if you're the twenty percent if you're listening to this and you say yeah, but for me, okay, this is entertaining. However, in my case, this is not going to work. You need cognitive behavior therapy AKA also known as CBT, because we need to change the way you think and the way you act, because again it's this lack of I don't want to show my lackability because they were so concerned with that. And yet life is full of failure. Life is full of you're going to
make mistakes, and actually you're going to be healthier. If you're going to make mistakes, is happier and happier they'd rather have them look as lacking of effort. Now there are three myths. Should I go there first?
Yes?
Oh?
The debunking flint Flam is one of my favorite segments.
It's where you flin flam is myth? Yes, it's debunks and flin flams a.
Right, Okay, all right, I call them myths.
Okay, right on tomorrow.
One of the myths that people say is technology makes it so much easier. Yeah, with my phone and everything else. I got to answer that with the story. In two thousand and six, a reporter from Connecticut phones me and says doctor Ferry, what do you think about the snooze button on alarm clocks? I don't have a phone of us, goes, Oh, yeah, that's the first technology for procrastination, and it's fifty years old. It was first available in nineteen fifty six. Oh wow, yes,
I didn't know that. Yeah, so we've had a lot of time. And he's right, you gained nine minutes. Now, there's nothing wrong with gaining him minus the problem is you keep pressing it. You keep pressing it. That's the problem. So then I started thinking about that. Okay, So the technology back in fifty six allowed us to do What about the telephone eighteen eighty five? Okay, there was a time you had to write your letter out, make sure it got to the person, give them five days, give
them time to come back. Now I could wait, give me your okay, and you could do You could do this at the last minute. The automobile earlier than the phone. There was a time I had to get my horse and my buggy together and feed it and get it all together. Now I could just go in my car.
Uh huh.
So there's always been technology. Don't give me this poo poo, that it's technology makes it easier. Myth number two. Myth number two is oh but ferrari, you don't understand. Our lives are so much busier today. We have so much going on. I just can't manage it all. It's too much. What an insult to our ancestors to get up? Who are farmers? Get up in the morning and make sure the field was plowed, fix the roof, get the pump working. Can the goods feed the anto? They didn't have a
lot to do. There's one hundred and sixty eight hours a week, twenty four times seven, no more, no less. Don't tell me we're busier. We're different. Oh absolutely, yes, not the same. It's not busier. Don't give me that excuse. Don't insult our ancestors. You cannot manage time. You only manage yourself. There is an expression we cannot control the wind, but we can adjust our sails. We can adjust how we deal with this. And the Japanese say, and if there's no wind, row, get yourself going.
Absolutely, And then what about myth three?
Okay? And myth number Am I taking too long? No? I love them? I love this okay, So I tell you, I can talk forever myth number three. Oh oh oh, okay, all right, Ferrari. So technology has been there and time has always been the same. But you know, I just work best on the pressure. Yes, oh, I gotta wait till that last minute, Ferrari. It gets me going, It gets the juices moving, and I always seem to succeed.
Yeah, you've read my journal.
Okay, but what juices are those? Exactly? Well, they're stress hormones. And if you need them to get a job done, congratulations. You are an arousal procrastinator, as opposed to the avoidance procrastinators, who just feel like their success or failure at any given task is a huge indicator of their worth on the planet. So a Tasmanian devil arousal versus an armadillo avoidance, if you will.
I'm a little bit of both.
And as you can imagine, by putting those animals together, it's not attractive.
So what happens do we gets?
No?
So yes, so I brought them in the lab. Did experiments. A lot of people think the research on procrastination that I and others do are just surveys. Absolutely not. I have done a lot of experiments meaning you bring procrastinators in the lab and non procrastinators and you have them do tasks. So in a series of tasks, they made more errors at the last minute. They took longer, but they thought they did better at the last minute. So
there's this perception I do better. And if you talk procrastinators, they will tell you all ferrari, I remember the time when I waited and this thing happened, And you go, I remember that too, that was like what eighteen years ago? You're told me that was like thirty to one years ago, And they oh, yeah, yeah, what about all the failure since? So they will harp on, they will remember the times when it works, because life is a very as we
say in the trade, a variable schedule of reinforcement. You don't always fail, you don't always succeed, and so this is the time it's going to happen.
Side note, a variable schedule of reinforcement was not a term that rolled off my tongue, so I had to look it up. And it means you never know when something will pay off, kind of like lotto scratchers or playing a slot machine, or swiping right on someone who might not like you. Back I myself not a Vegas gambler. I get no thrills from feeding money into a video game owned by money pigs. So to put that in perspective,
let's look at procrastination as a gamble. So the notion that the high stake danger of doing something last minute would lead to some jackpot of genius is of course foolish. And doctor Ferrari says that your odds of doing a good job on something are way higher and more predictably so by just doing things earlier, whether that's writing your book of short stories or buying plane tickets. So procrastination is a huge crapshoot, and remember the house always wins.
I read in a book that people who procrastinate on in terms of personality psychology, and I have to run an episode on that tend to have lower conscientiousness and higher neuroticism.
Yes, and they tend to worry about the future.
Neuroticism is not as much as people thought. It's clearly conscientiousness. Now what are we talking about here? People don't understand that. Personality researchers have said that there's really five we call them the Big five personality variables that all comes down the five. And actually there's a six, and I can talk about that in a minute. But anyway, there's the big five. And the easiest way to remember think of the word oh, and that will give you the an acronym the.
Oh your openness, openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism.
Spell the word ocean. And that's how I teach students to remember. Okay, so the big one. Interestingly, lee enough, there's very little research on conscientiousness, but procrastination seems to be the strong opposite. So again when I get pushed back from colleagues as so this is not a real topic, I say, study the opposite of conscientiousness, study procrastination. It's correlated negatively. I have not done that research. I'm not
a big fiver we call them. And in fact, I like there's a newer mode call the hexaco that adds in the H that would be on humility and honesty. What these researchers have found is the five works, but you're missing something. People are honest and humility. But I tell you it's hard to be humble when you're great. You know it.
And so this is and well that also brings back to the social social esteem. I mean that seems like procrastination is not a problem that you struggle with, but you do have people in your life that you might be sure, lots of you sure, I'll just say that in a general sense, and not reading I work with people out of this.
You may have dedicated the book to someone very close.
You know, they have to buy the book and find out exactly Now that's the book. What book are we talking about. We're talking about still Procrastinate, The No Regrets Guide to Getting.
It Done, of course, which there will be a link in the show notes.
Okay, now, so when you're when you're studying this, do your relationships with people close to you who struggle with procrast do they inform your research?
Yes? They informed, But I remember the good These procrastinators are good excuse maker, right, And so whenever they hear anything I'm talking about, or any podcast or any interview that I'll do on the phone afterwards, get very annoyed and they say, well that's old. They come over, excuse you have old research? You have you're only looking at one thing. Yeah, so an excuse making. But you don't understand in my situation, blah blah blah blah.
Do you do you have a gushy, empathetic heart for the anxious struggles of the progression?
Absolutely, don't think I'm being called Yes, but I'm not going to let them.
Get away with it because it doesn't help.
No, it doesn't help enable them. I'm not going to enable them because life is not about them. Life is about us. Life is about all of us and that and all I be doing is do I feel bad for them? Yes? And sympathetic? Yes? And I try to, you know, advise. I get calls all the time, emails all the time. I've struggled all my life that what can I do? And I empathetic and I say, yes, I understand. I'm not a clinical psychologist. However, I give them just a few tidbits and they go, oh, that's me,
you know very much. They can relate to it. So I don't think I'm off the mark.
No, No, right on the money. What's so painful and wonderful about it?
So in one of doctor Ferrari's approximately one billion studies, he looked at different types of artists to see if procrastination is actually an important part of their process. Is it the secret sauce on their chicken burger.
So I wondered, are these creative procrastinators savoring that's why they're trying, or are they ruminating about failure? Bottom line? What do you think ruminating about? Mt? About?
What about perfectionism?
Okay, perfectionism is also related to procrastination, but it's a separate concept. He's too overlap, but there's different. There's a body of literature on perfectionism, but there is a crossover with procrastination. Non procrastinators are perfectionistic, and so are procrastinators perfectionism. But what's the difference between them? Ah, long story short. The procrastinator is perfectionistic for a motive, a desire to get along. The non procrastinator is perfectionistic to get ahead.
Oh wow, you understand the difference. One is I want to do the best job to get ahead. The other one is I want you to like me. Yeah you say, don't you say I work hard? Oh? Isn't it good? I really worked hard, didn't I? Okay?
Yes, that was doctor Ferrari mimicking a desperate puppy. In case you're feeling scathingly understood right now, as am I?
And where does that come from. Does that come from?
Where's the origin of perfection? You've read some of the stuff, you already have your questions in your head. Okay, that's a great question. Okay, First of all, there's no gene for procrastinating. There's no genetic gene. Every two years is an international meeting on the study of procrastination. Didn't they say that it is?
I did twenty seventeen.
Yes, when I did it in twenty seventeen, there were researchers from Denver area who came in and followed up an earlier study of mine on genetics, and they found with identical twins, they found that procrastination was less than fifty percent explained by jeans. So it's not genetic. I had shown earlier in the nineties when I was pumping this stuff out, that it was parenting style. It's a learned tendency. You learn to become a procrastinator, and that
means you can unlearn it. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. I tell people, you just use a different bone and you take longer, all right, But can you teach them Absolutely, it's just going to be harder. So what I found was a certain parenting style that elicited that caused kids to become procrastinators. And what style
is that? That's the call demanding parents? As long as you live under this roof, yoda, I don't want to hear any lip I said, you do this, well, that causes a child who can't revolt to what just take your time, which would make the parent what even more angry for the big one? And then you get on.
Yeah, so it's like a little bit of but it's a little control.
They can exactly over this kind of thing. And we found particularly let me ask you the question, who do you think you find this more common? And who do you think causes kids who concrastinators? Moms or dads?
Oh, you know, I just keep thinking about my perfectionist grandparents. And so I had grandparents who demanded perfection when they come over. Our rooms had to be spotless, you know, things like that.
Wow, And they would look to see if there's any.
Does literally, and they would give you a roll of coins and then they would take one away for every indiscretion.
There are a lot of fun and so.
Yeah, like I got nichols.
My older sister got quarters, which was so annoying because I was like, what so, but yes, yeah, so I still had my tiny hands had to make the bed. But but yeah so, but I would guess that would be like a demanding father figure.
Probably it was the father's Usually we blame everything on mom, Mom, I'm sorry. In this case, we are finding it's dad, and they report procrasting is a shallower relationship with dad, more conflict with dad, less support finding from dad, so giving that profile and everything else. So it's a learn tendency. That's where it comes from. The answer your question, and it tends to begin in the home. And this is the way the person has learned to adjust. And our
culture rewards us for procrastinating. Let me go there for a minute. Okay, taxes are coming up April fifteenth. Now, if you owe money, there's absolutely no reason why you should file earlier. I'm that stupid, all right. The government's got it wrong. I'm a fan of and this is another one of my lines is don't punish for being late procrastinating, reward for being early. Oh wow, And the government needs to do that. So you can't file in
January because you're getting all your papers. The government should say, if you can send this stuff in by February fifteenth. We'll let you say five percent. Yeah, well, the government gets it too much earlier. You save some money. Is your reinforced March fifteenth, three percent? Yeah, April fifteenth, you pay it all. That will not work with the twenty percent chronic, Yeah, but it'll work with the eighty percent. Our culture is punitive. Our culture punishes you. We don't
give the early bird the worm. Let's reward the person who does it earlier, incentivizing it.
And this I have so many I have I know you have lots.
So many questions, but I want to get to patroon questions. But of course before your questions. Each week we donate to a charity of the ologists choosing, and this week the cause of autoimmune vasculitis research is meaningful to doctor Ferrari and his family, so we donated to Vasculitis Foundation dot org in honor of him and his love Sharon Ferrari. And I looked for an additional charity to send some cash,
one that helps people afflicted with procrastination. And I spent honestly like an hour googling, googling, googling nothing until the line between doing research and just wasting time was so blurred, so I could not find a procrastination charity.
I don't think they exist.
So Vasculitisfoundation dot org is this week's recipient, and let that be an indicator of just how little people recognize the impact of procrastination on physical and mental health and on industry. Anyway, that donation was made possible by sponsors of the show, who you may hear me talk about.
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Okay, back to your questions, and honestly, there were so many people with this question. I'm going to list just first names for brevity and also anonymity, but I see you my pod children Ethan, kat Andrea, Anna, Leah, Nicole, Julie, Nick Maddie and first time question asker is Maria Ethan and someone by the name of I'm not your Lama. But the biggest question I got, and I can't even list how many people asked this was just doctor Ferrari.
World expert of procrastination, what do I do?
Okay, Well, again, if you're part of the twenty percent where this is your I'm honest, I have to tell you the truth. Maladaptive lifestyle. It seems to be pervasive, and you've been doing it all your life and you're doing it in all these settings, then you need therapy.
I'm the story.
You need cognitive behavior therapy. I don't want to diss any of my colleagues, but I'm saying, find a good clinical psychologist who's trained not in time management, who's going to help you change the way you think and the way you act. But suppose you're part of the twenty percent that many of your respondents might have been people who say I only procrastinate as one thing or this area of my life. Okay, if because they're so concerned
about social esteem, what others think. Publicly post what you have to do, put it on Facebook or Instagram, whatever you use. Okay, I say, if friends this is what I gotta do, contact me in three days. Let me know. They're very concerned about what we'll think about. Now, that's not a new technique. You see. We talk about how technology public posting goes back to God when I was
in college in the seventies. But and I remember reading in the sixties that literature on public posting, you're more likely to do something if it's publicly posted than if you don't. So with technology we can use that again. But it's not a new concept. Surround yourself with doers, not with people who are going to black people who are going to get things done. I didn't finish more about the procrastination and perfectionism.
Yeah, yeah, and.
I just got jump back there from me. Okay. I had a one year visiting position in the Qunity System City University of New York. And while I was there, I had business in Baroque College, well known excellent school for business. I had a lot of business majors MBAs and psychology students starting to be business. So I had to go out and collect data on their jobs. And I said, let's take a vignette, a little story about a guy. We called them mister Nolan. He was a
company auditor. He worked really hard, but he never got things in on time. Happily married, fine, everything's financially stable, and whenever you asked, I'm working on it. At the end of that vignette, for one third, he calls himself a procrastinator. For another third he calls himself a perfectionist, and another third no label. Okay, So they had people at their workplace because I like to use adults. It was just commege students in my data, because I think
it's easy to generalize to non university populations. So we had the three people. The people read over that and then they filled in measures on whether they were procrastinators or not. So we compared procrastinators and non procrastinators on how they evaluate another procrastinator. Because my question really was, as I listened to these business people, if I'm a procrastinator and my boss is a procrastinator, when I come up from my annual review at the end of the year,
is she going to be easier on me? Because after all, two of the same or she going to be harder. So what did we find? Wow, it didn't matter if they called themselves a perfectionist or a procrastinator. But the procrastinators, more than the non procrassion wanted to fire him, said he is the cause of the problem, a terrible, horrible So what's the takeaway if you're a procrastinator, and even if you call yourself a perfraction is people are not
gonna like you other procrastinators. They want to distance themselves from you. Again again, they're very concerned about that social image, going back to how to treat it. So don't surround yourself with other procrassors. They're not gonna like you that you surround yourself with non procrastinators.
Okay, okay, So my fellow procrastinators, the ones who are afraid of doing a bad job and having people mad at you. I have good news and I have bad news. They're mad at us anyway. Everyone hates us for taking too long. We're just screwing ourselves. There's no need to delay it. People can only like us more.
This is a revelation in social psychology. Another study we did is a concept called social loafing. Have you heard that social loafing. Oh yeah, that's an oldie.
Never heard of that, never got to have me as I know once a month.
Come on, let's talk to Ferrari. But yeah, social loafing that when people are in a groups and the individual performance is not evaluated. But it's like in a classroom setting or job, I want one report from the group, you will get social loafing. Okay, people will not do it. PROCs are notorious for that.
In his book Still Procrastinating, The No Regrets Guide to Getting It Done, doctor Ferrari defines a social loafer as someone, say on a group project, who just coasts like, hangs back, lets you all figure a project out. And maybe you think that they are smoking a doobie and playing bongos in the parking lot, but actually they're wringing their hands in the bathroom, worried they're just gonna let everyone down.
So in a one study, we had procrastinators read other evaluate other people in this scenario who were loafing. Oh they were the hell on living hell.
They were a public enemy, public acaty.
So even with you socially loaf, they're not going to give you why why when they're just like me that because again I want to distance myself and this is not a socially acceptable concept. And I have to tell you I have seen in the last fifteen twenty years a lot more media, a lot more on procrastination out there than ever was when I started forty years ago, thirty well, god, forty years ago, whatever it was, there was nothing. Now it's a very common thing. So back
to what you can do. Surround yourself with doers publicly post. Don't let people let you get away with it, hold you accountable, okay. And then there's lots of other time time management and I really hesitated that. You can hear it in my voice saying time manager, because you don't manage time but break the task down into small little chunks. You ever hear the expression don't miss the forest for the trees, in other words, don't miss the big picture
because you're caught up with all the little parts. Yeah, that's not the procrastinators problem. They see the forest, they forget that it's what made of trees.
They just see one big terrifi.
Oh my god, I have to do this thing. Holy god, I can't. This is a I'd never do it. I can't do it. Right. They see the fart. They see the fart. So you teach them cut one tree. You can't cut one tree, give me three branches. Can't give three branches, take a handful of leaves. Because what's the commercial? A body in motion stays in motion. It's more physics. Okay that once. Yeah, stopping a train is very hard
once it's a movie. So get going. Just do it now, not Nancy Reagan's just say no, Just say now.
Okay. So this next question was asked by so many people on patreon dot com soshologies. I'm gonna say your first name's gonna do it quickly. Margaret Shock, Honor, Beatrice, Ryan, Margaret, Alisa, Jamie, Noah, Elizabeth, Nikula, Sandro, Moses, Ali, Zultan, Annie, Sophie, Mike and my first time question asking bbes Tracy, Andrea, so Lemia, Angela, Deborah, Maria, Kelly Elliott and Xavier or
Xavier I'm not sure how French you are? And now what about things comorbidities like ADHD, say or generalized anxiety disorder, like what other factors can someone may be attack that might be a component of their procrastination.
Yeah, in this book, I actually have on chapter twelve looking at procrastination and personality styles and some of these negative consequences. I hesitate to say this because sometimes people get very annoyed with my comment. But there's only been one study that looked at procrastination in ADHD, and I did it, and I found practically no relationship.
Really.
Yes, again, people say that's cuch a word and proneness different, thrill seeking different, easily distractable, yes, but not ADHD. See, there are different measures we use in psychology, and thrill seeking is a measure of the Zuckerman Martin Zuckerman Zuckerman from I can put it in.
Yeah, yeah, okay, yes, I look this up and the late Marvin Zuckerman's work focused on sensation seeking. There's even a sensation seeking scale and yeah, yeah, I found it online and I took it. I answered this nineteen point academic quiz and at the end it said, if you checked eleven or more of the items, you're probably a sensation seeker. If you checked seven or fewer of the items, you're probably not a sensation seeker. My score?
Are you ready for this?
Six? Just off the charts? Risk averse, my friends. But if you would agree with statements like I prefer friends who are unpredictable, or I often wish I were a mountain climber, or I would like to try some of the new drugs that produce hallucinations. You might seek thrills ps. This quiz was written in the late nineteen sixties.
Groovy Time uh Zuckerman's thrill Seeking Measure shows are you easily distracted? Are you boredom prone? There are people and so while it sounds like ADHD, it's a different cut. That's true, and it's only one study, so I'm not willing to say there isn't a relationship. Although when I say that, they get very people in the field get very angry. You're understanding, I see that. You know, it's a hard concept to wrap around progressing because it's sometimes
the outcome and sometimes it's the cause. You see, I think with ADHD, it's an outcome. It is procrastinating from that. But then this also, which is my interests, the cause that where it starts. So it's a there's two different you know which way you look at it. But if nothing else from today's show, I hope your listeners realize that everybody procrastinates, all right, And that doesn't make you a procrastinator. You told me you had lots of people
asking questions. I would bet if we look closer, for many of these people, they're just delaying a task or two. And that's okay. You know. Look, if I'm a manager, I want to delay why because I want information from my employees give me before not just jump into a decision. That's not good effective, good decision making. You need some time to think. Sure, But the question is if you have another focus group and another focus group and let's do another one now again, that's the problem.
That's excessive. Elliott Alder, first time question, asker awesome questions. I know, right, How do you tell the difference between procrastination and not having enough spoons for the task at that moment? Like, how do you know whether or not you really are overloaded or whether or not you're procrastinating.
Think of this as a continuum, and so there could be a moment where you have many spoons, a lot of irons in the fire. As they say, there could be a lot going on. But the question is are there always irons in the fire? You asked about treatment. One simple way is to delegate gives the task to somebody else. But if you have too much to do, trust that someone else can do this for you, that
you've mentored along or that's skilled enough. And well, they fail, maybe, but if they succeed eight out of ten eighty percent of the time, be happy with that. Don't harp on the fact that they fail twice. Feed at eight. So if you have too many irons in the fire, too many spoons that you have to feed and do that, consider what you have to do. And again, prioritizing is fine. That's not the same as procrastinating. You're not structuring your procrastination.
You are simply learning to prioritize. Procrastinator is a very bad ad judging time. They either underestimate or overestimate. They're very good. So another technique is to help them learn to practice time, not to read a watch. Of course they can do that, but we're telling them practice how much time something's going to take and more or less. Again, this person might be saying, I have lots of spoons to use. Well do you always find that? Are you
good at judging the time? Life is full of peak periods in times we need to reward people for me is another suggestion we need to reward people who meet the deadlines. So again, if you're a manager and you have a department twenty people, thirty people, you know, and you say I need this report done. We need to get the Snyder report done by uh March fifteenth, all right, but if you get it to me to look at a March first, everybody gets that Friday off. Got see an incentives again.
Now, This next question, or a variation of it, was asked by Julie bear Eva and Genessa about whether or not it's better to dangle a reward in front of your own face or to swat your butt mercilessly.
So that's the caret and not the stick as they Oh.
Absolutely, we do too much punishing. We don't do enough reward.
Kendra Niedercorn asks first time question asker, how come when I'm procrastinating other tasks I don't want to do see more appealing, like cleaning my kitchen when I should be doing my taxes.
What's happening? Is it like a dope?
Corresponses No, No, we're turning the bio again. No, not necessary. We don't know, And if it is bio, it's much more correlational than causal. They correlate, and it doesn't mean once causing the other. A very common mistake people make is they take correlation and they make it causal. Okay, so yes, of course you're doing something that's more fun than something that's not fun. But how on the other hand, you may be doing a task. They both need to be done. You've got to do the taxes, you've got
to do the dishes. So it's logical. It's not illogical to be born illogical. Sure, I need to do that, but at some point there's a deadline where the taxes have to be done and you need to pull that together and work it together.
Doctor Ferrari then produced a small weekly calendar, the days filled up with Harry notes and tasks, each task scratched off deeply in the tight zigzags of ballpoint. Ink.
I'm old fashioned. This is going to blow you away. I write them down and some weeks away, so I write that in pencil. Work on the taxes, so I think I have that down on Saturday. Work on taxes next Sunday. So I put down a few times so I can do that. But sometimes it's even crazier. I prefer this much better than putting it down because I can get to much more things that are done this way.
Nice.
And I love that when you're crossing things off, you're not just crossing it off, you are obliterating it, like perhaps your ped marks are Like is that is there something that's rewarding about like, yes, I got it done, like scratching it off, like it's out there.
There's a new body of literature call procrastination, people who like to do things ahead of the time. Yeah. And then I may fall more under that because yes, because I only don't write it here. I have a calendar in my office and in my work office there's a calendar by the desk, and when I turn it.
Around, yeah, because another calendar.
So I make sure I have it in both.
You know.
But that's great because the reward is you get to cross it off.
I get to cross it off each time. Yeah.
I mean sometimes people put things on there to do list already did, just so they can cross it off.
It feels amazing. That's kind of what else we have.
Last questions?
I always ask everyone, Uh, the the crappiest thing about your job, the thing you hate about procrastination, the most thing you hate about your work, But the thing that just irks you, the worst thing about what you do, or the thing you hate the most about procrastination or people.
Yeah, the thing I hate about procrastination is people not taking this as a serious problem. You asked me earlier, do I have empathy for the people who are chronic procrastinators? And the answer is yes. And I think our society, by not taking it seriously, cheapens it makes it less of a serious kind of thing, and I think that's not fair. I think it was Al Green who came up with a line. There's a song Sexual Healing said if you listen to the very last as a song
fades off, wait one, it says, don't procrastinate. And it's the only time I ever heard that word used. Then there was a singer I forgot her name after my generation who has a song called procrastination. Lizzo No, no, no, she killed herself.
Oh Amy Winehouse.
Yes, I think she had a song called procrastity.
Oh my gosh, I'll look it up and.
Jubbing.
So this leaked song is titled Procrastination. It's on YouTube. It's said to be about Amy Winehouse's trouble writing songs after her debut album, and apparently she titled the song Procrastinate, and it, along with about a dozen other tracks, are to remain in the vault. She wanted them unreleased in the event of her death. Also, the official cause of death was accidental alcohol overdose, which is tragic and gutting.
And for more on addiction see the Addictionology episode. Also, as long as we're clarifying things, sexual healing is a Marvin Gaye song. And I know that you were just furious, some of you thinking I'm just gonna leave that hanging out there, but I know when you get feeling you need factual dealings. Anyway, Procrastination is in the hearts and on the lips of so many artists.
But it's not procrastination. But I just love that that's not procrassi sexual healing. So what do I hate that after all these years that I've been talking about this in the media, the conference presentations, that people will put me at the end of conferences when I talk because you're on procrastination. Yes, that we don't take it seriously as a culture, that it's more than a time management issue. It's a maladaptive lifestyle. For twenty percent of people more
than depression. And I'm not dis depression. It's a very serious issue. Substance abuse and alcoholism very serious. We treat those very seriously, as we should, and we should really treat the chronic procrastination be careful. So I don't like that. I think people still think it's time management issues because it's a socially acceptable kind of thing.
But that's and that's great.
I mean when we were writing back and forth, you were like, don't.
Make life, yes, and I was like, oh no, this.
Is and then you had self disclosed beause not looking for you.
I didn't care.
This is I want to have videos and I saw kind of comical, funny things and I thought she's going to set me up for something, and this is not a funny thing.
No, I'm like, this is literally the thing in my life. I have a list of things that I want to accomplish in my life, not even a little bit joking. True, the goal conquered procrastination is at the top of that list, and I want to scratch it off so hard that the pen rips the paper. And so should procrastinators have a little bit more self compassion, a little bit more like, hey, don't be so hard on yourself.
Another good topic for you to interview. There's a research I forgot her book. There's a great book, self help book. Forgot the author's name on self compassion.
Look this up and he's talking about self compassion expert and Austin based psychology professor doctor Kristin Neff. I felt so stupid because I got her confused with shame expert Brene Brown.
And then I went to.
Doctor Nef's website self dashcompassion dot org, did a little poking around, and I was like, you know what, hey, Ward, It's okay. You got those two researchers confused. You are a fleshy vessel of meat and matter. You're not an information Kiosk, Kit, Barnes and Noble. So thanks doctor Kristin f.
And she weaves a lot of social personality psychology in it. People need to forgive themselves. It's much easier for us to forgive other people than it is ourselves. Yeah, and that's a tendency people have.
Last question.
I always ask last question, Yes, what's your favorite thing about your job?
The exciting part of being an academic a faculty member is you can ask questions and get answers, and I love making me think. Now. I love working with my students. The joy bringing them to a conference and having them present. Can't tell you the joy of that. You just said, that's the job. It's not the money. Well that's nice, but it's not the money. It's not the time, it's not the schedule. It's seeing the next generation rise. That's just beforic.
And just think of all the people that are going to be studying this and that are interested in this.
Hopeels of you.
Yeah, I hope that your listeners contact me if they're interested.
Read your book first. What's the name of that book. It's called Still.
Procrastinating, The No Regrets Guide to Getting It Done by doctor Joseph Ferrari, PhD.
Yes, great book.
Thank you, yes, of course, thank you so much for doing this. You're amazing. You need your own television show. Can you get your own television show? Please?
That's fine with me.
So ask experts and smart people's stupid questions and know that there are actually not stupid questions. That is an ironic statement. Also, have compassion for yourself, celebrate your own curiosity, and, as doctor Ferrari inscribed in My Now Dog eared copy of Still Procrastinating, The No Regrets Guide to Getting It Done, Just Do It Now. So that book is available wherever you get books, and I'll put a link in the show notes as well as links to a lot of
the things that we discussed in this episode. Up at aliward dot com slash ologies slash procrastination because volitional psychology is too hard to spell and the last thing you need is a harder time getting to those resources. So we're at ologies on Instagram and Twitter. I'm at ali Ward with one L on both. Come say hi, I be friends. Shirts and hats and beanies and toads are available at ologiesmerch dot com or up at aliward dot com.
Thank you Shannon Feltis and the recently engaged Bonnie Dutch. Congrats Joe of the podcast. You are that for a managing merch Aaron Telberd admin's Theologies podcast Facebook group, and huge thanks to Emily White and all the transcribers making transcripts available. They are blazing through them. They're so many up and they're so helpful, And I'm going to put a link in the show notes where you can get those for free. They're on my website at Aliward dot com.
Thank you to Jared Sleeper of the mental health podcast My Good Bad Brain for assistant editing. Also, if you liked the traumatology episode with doctor Nick Barr, he and Jarrett are now doing free week mental health live streams on Sundays at ten am Pacific time. I live tweeted it last week at Theologies Twitter and it's on mixer dot com slash My Good Bad Brain, and I'm going to put a link in the show notes for that too, because it was really great and I think you might
like it. Also, thanks, of course, as always to Stephen Ray Morris of the podcast see Jurassic Wright and the per cast for putting these together each week with me and bearing with my fears of just not being enough. He is a saint and I'm working on being faster for my sake and for his. He's the best. Nick Thorburn wrote and performed the theme music. And if you listen until the end of the episode, you know I
tell you secret. And this week is that I just realized I was in a sound booth doing some voiceover stuff and yes, if you heard me on a grocery store ad, that is me. And I realized it between takes that if you take a regular pencil like one of those Dixon taekwonder rogas you know that has like the non roly sides, and you rub it between your palms. Ready, I'm gonna do it. This is hell a smr. Okay.
Ready if you do this, kay, sounds like a cat burry.
I'm more of a dog person. But if you ever miss your cat or you need to be soothed, you can try that.
That weird, it's just a bed.
Okay, So that's fine. You're welcome by Pacodermic College Mombiology or do zoology, Lithology, New Technology, meteorologyology, menthology, seriologyology,